It's about time...
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-11-11/story/new_transportation_center_planned_for_downtown_jacksonville
I have mixed feelings about this project. I love the idea of a transportation center but spreading it out of several blocks because of an inability to properly coordinate and get the convention center out of there will limit its long term potential.
Quote“In most cities, people take a commuter train to a bus or subway,†Arrington said. “People will make two transfers as long as it runs smoothly.â€
I agree, but transfers don't work smoothly when its a three block walk between modes. We need to do everything we can to get the convention center out of there.
QuoteOriginally, Greyhound was in a future phase, but JTA recently moved it up when it determined it might help get the stimulus money.
That’s bad news for Mitchell McDaniel, owner of Architectural Accents & Antiques and McDaniels Contractors Inc. Both businesses are located on the 1100 block of West Adams Street, and JTA will be taking his building via eminent domain to construct the Greyhound Terminal.
“My problem right now is that I don’t know when this is going to happen,†McDaniel said. “They may be looking to take my business in the next few months or it may not be for years.â€
Leave the little guy alone and go meet with Peyton to plan for the removal of the convention center. Get it out of the way and all transportation center components could become consolidated and built south of Forsyth Street. Doing that would free up several blocks for infill transit oriented development. A transportation center surrounded by blocks of high density mixed-use development would be better for ridership and the tax rolls than a transit center sprawled across LaVilla and around a dying convention facility.
"shovel ready"
this means that they've had the plan in the works for sometime i guess....
Yes, its been proposed for years. It even got money taken away from it, after it had been left in waiting for a while.
I love how they refer to commuter rail as "high speed rail." JTA has nothing to do with high speed rail planning in the state. Commuter rail is totally different.
Also, I totally agree about the convention center. Our little kiddy center has got to go or Jacksonville will go nowhere. Why don't our city "leaders" get this? I thought Peyton was a businessman. As such he should understand such things.
QuoteFuture phases would include a new Amtrak station adjacent to the existing Prime Osborn and historic Jacksonville Union Terminal, additional retail stores along Johnson Street, and a parking garage with about 2,000 more spaces.
This is JTA scheming to get a new building, plain and simple. The dump they are in now must be falling down. They'll get the new digs for everyone and the substation and there we go, we'll be waiting for rail to show up, in a "future" phase. Cart before the horse comes to mind.
I respectfully disagree...truth is all the planning and most of the design for the center has already been done....which is not the case w/ rail.
Plus, this is the kind of project that could be funded through stimulus or an earmark...at this point, construction of commuter rail and/or streetcar are not.
QuoteA transportation center could also become the savior of the little-used Skyway. JTA believes Skyway ridership would increase because the Convention Center station would be located in the middle of the new transportation center.
However, the $184 million Skyway â€" also built with federal money â€" could also turn out to be the strongest argument against a transportation center. What little ridership there has been dropped by more than 20 percent in the last two years, and the rosy estimates that were thrown about when the Skyway was being built in the ’80s were never met.
Arrington blames the ridership drop on the recession and believes the primary problem with the Skyway is that there’s no good way for people to access the people-mover. More downtown development, and a transportation network that drops people off at the Skyway, would increase ridership, he said.
“In most cities, people take a commuter train to a bus or subway,†Arrington said. “People will make two transfers as long as it runs smoothly.â€
This is one JTA project I support, assuming they do it right. That's always a question when JTA is involved. Lake makes a good point on moving the convention center being part of doing it right. If JTA skews the deal, forget it. Already, cracks in the wall with Greyhound blocks away.
Doesn't anyone want to know how JTA can find money for a new HQ's here, but not some "pocket change" for bus shelters without ads? Maybe JTA will cover its HQ's with ads too to pay for the new digs. ;D
I love the continued excuses-of-the-day JTA offers for the $ky-high-way. Now it's the economy. We just came out of one of the biggest boom times in 75 years, and nothing good happened for the $ky-high-way. So, why are we blaming the economy? Someone could fill a book with all the excuses JTA has cooked up over the years. Can't JTA just admit it's an idea that's failed to the tune of $14 million in annual losses and $20,000 per year per rider subsidies? Building the new center around the $ky-high-way would just be another indication JTA isn't going to do this right.
Is this center planning for street cars as well? Hopefully, no BRT. Is a hotel planned for the Amtrak riders looking at a layover/inter-modal transfer? How about a rental car complex? The City tourism/visitors bureau?
Maybe the rents from related activities could pay some bills.
Stjr, here are the plan's components:
QuoteJacksonville Regional Transportation Center Phase 1
• Stations for bus rapid transit
• Greyhound station
• 200 parking spaces
• 8,000 square-feet of retail space on Johnson and Forsyth streets.
• Public plaza facing Johnson Street.
• Four-story, 60,000 square-foot building housing most regional transportation officials.
Future phases would include:
• Amtrak station that could incorporate future commuter rail and high-speed rail.
• Renovation of Prime Osborn Convention Center to make it part of the Amtrak station when conventions aren’t occurring.
• Elevated, 2,000-space parking garage.
Source: Jacksonville Transportation Authority
Amazing to me how JTA can go Eminent Domain on a couple of blocks and have money to renovate or build new, but has no money at all for simple bus shelters! Got money for that but no shelters..................I mean come on!! JTA is playing games AGAIN with words and with our tax dollars. It just leaves me speechless that they have the audacity to build but have no money for shelters. Real nice planning by professionals hard at work bringing our City into the 21st Century!
Here is a site plan of what's proposed:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Miscellaneous/jrtcsite/455355060_QyaKc-L.jpg)
I guess phase 1 is everything spreadout across the blocks north of Bay. Personally, I'd be hesitant to move foward on anything north of Forsyth. All of those components can fit south of Bay to create a more user friendly and compact hub, if people gather up the courage to talk about the future of the convention center.
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 12, 2009, 06:53:40 AM
Amazing to me how JTA can go Eminent Domain on a couple of blocks and have money to renovate or build new, but has no money at all for simple bus shelters! Got money for that but no shelters..................I mean come on!! JTA is playing games AGAIN with words and with our tax dollars. It just leaves me speechless that they have the audacity to build but have no money for shelters. Real nice planning by professionals hard at work bringing our City into the 21st Century!
To be fair, they don't have money for this either.
lake .....what is the old adage....."Champange taste on a water budget"? Proposal is wasting valuable square are when the option to build up might be a better choice. I mean there appear to be no advantage spreading out in the proposed manner?
I agree that it takes up about five more blocks than necessary. All because no one is man enough to bring the convention center issue up.
Also keep in mind that this is also an FDOT project...not just JTA
If the City would move the freaking Convention Center, then JTA could get this thing redesigned and built more compactly! The City is forcing this sprawled out complex! Move the Convention Center and let JTA take over the entire site and make it a true transportation center. Nothing will spur development like all of our transportation modes hubbing at this location.
and it's "Champagne taste on a beer income."
Here is the Metrojacksonville article comparing the city's plan to their own for the same area
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-a-vision-for-transit-in-jacksonville
So this is not "cut and dry" by no means. There's the possibility that the request for "S" funds will be denied though I hope not. "Competition is fierce" they stated from all states, and the way Jax does business we probably will not draft a strong enough competitive plan and justification for receiving the funds to build this transport center. I hope our leaders are smart and aggressive enough to draft a good plan, request, and justification for the feds to grant the stimulus funds to build this much needed transport center for Downtown Jax.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: ralpho37 on November 11, 2009, 10:44:02 PM
I love how they refer to commuter rail as "high speed rail." JTA has nothing to do with high speed rail planning in the state. Commuter rail is totally different.
Just shows "they" have a lack of knowledge about such things and its ironic that people are hired into such positions but don't really know what they're talking about. High speed rail and commuter rail are in the same field but are two different animals.
If "THEY" are reading this, commuter rail is intra-city (example between several points/neighborhoods within a city and its suburbs or county); and high speed rail is inter-city or interstate (outside of the city but between several city points either within a state or nation). So much for "Rail 101."
Heights Unknown
Quote from: fsujax on November 12, 2009, 08:16:33 AM
If the City would move the freaking Convention Center, then JTA could get this thing redesigned and built more compactly! The City is forcing this sprawled out complex! Move the Convention Center and let JTA take over the entire site and make it a true transportation center. Nothing will spur development like all of our transportation modes hubbing at this location.
and it's "Champagne taste on a beer income."
I agree with you FSU Jax and Lakelander about the convention center; it has to be removed from the equation, or the transportation center relocated to another location downtown seperate from the convention center. The full realization and potential of this transportation center will never materialize or come to fruition with the convention center in the equation. I agree wholeheartedly.
Heights Unknown
So are their existing plans set in stone? It sounds as though many here feel as though we may be wasting this money without addressing the convention center. Who are the individual players to address about these concerns?
^^City Council, the Mayor's Office, major civic and business leaders, JTA, FDOT just to name a few.
I don't think there's really a smart way to build the transportation center next to the convention center while the convention center remains a convention center. I would say convert the covention center back to a train or transportation station as a part of the transportation center and build a new convention center somewhere downtown or near downtown (which is what most in this forum and come city/county leaders have proposed).
Heights Unknown
Quote from: untarded on November 12, 2009, 09:43:27 AM
So are their existing plans set in stone? It sounds as though many here feel as though we may be wasting this money without addressing the convention center. Who are the individual players to address about these concerns?
Nope, it is not set in stone...from what I read; there's a possibility we may not get the funds (read my previous post). Competition is fierce from other cities in the nation for these funds. So aggressive, sound, and smart planning initiatives relative to the proposed and submitted plans to the feds is paramount in us receiving the funding to move forward.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on November 12, 2009, 09:43:03 AM
The full realization and potential of this transportation center will never materialize or come to fruition with the convention center in the equation. I agree wholeheartedly.
Heights Unknown
The other side of this is, you'll also put the final nail in a substandard convention facility. You think its hard for the Prime to compete due to its age, size, lack of a hotel and adjacent entertainment/dining/retail. Imagine that being next to a city bus depot and greyhound.
Let's see. You're in charge of booking a business convention. Do you go to a place like Nashville, Louisville, or Kansas City where the convention center has several hotels in the immediate area and a major entertainment/dining district? Or do you bring your executives to the center with greyhound next door and the Hyatt/Omni and Landing a mile away?
Also, you can't use the skyway connection in the argument because it doesn't even run at night and on the weekends. Plus, its blocks away from the Hyatt.
Does JTA know about metrojacksonville's proposal with converting the Prime into the main terminal and moving the convention center?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2009, 07:10:20 AM
I agree that it takes up about five more blocks than necessary. All because no one is man enough to bring the convention center issue up.
This might be a silly question - but is there a reason why this is the case? I mean, from what I can tell, the transportation arguments for using the convention center as the transportation center are pretty solid. Is there something that I'm missing that makes the current convention center some sort of "third rail" that no one wants to talk about? Is there some historical tie there, or a case of someone trying to play CYA with decisions made regarding it? Or is it simply there's no cash to build a new one, so why even talk about it?
Quote from: Dapperdan on November 12, 2009, 10:00:05 AM
Does JTA know about metrojacksonville's proposal with converting the Prime into the main terminal and moving the convention center?
I actually don't think the issue here is JTA, but the city, since they own the Convention Center. My understanding is that JTA was told to work around it.
Just looking at JTA's plan for two minutes was long enough to see the potential for the convention center site to become the mass transit hub. Greyhound doesn't need an entire block to itself, and the offices could easily be integrated into one of those stations. Metrojacksonville's plan makes an absurd amount of sense in this case. This is a project I would gladly wait an extra year to have it better designed.
Is it possible (would the city man up and do this) to close the convention center and start construction before the courthouse site is cleared? Could the city partner with the Hyatt on a short term basis for events??
Anything is possible with dialogue. Unfortunately, getting people to actually have dialogue is a major problem in this city.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2009, 09:55:07 AM
The other side of this is, you'll also put the final nail in a substandard convention facility. You think its hard for the Prime to compete due to its age, size, lack of a hotel and adjacent entertainment/dining/retail. Imagine that being next to a city bus depot and greyhound.
I was thinking the same thing...maybe doing this would jump start the discussion about a new convention center...albeit backwards
Could the events currently held at Prime Osborne be held at the under-used arena and/or the current fairgrounds?
I think any start is a good thing regardless of design. It would be nice if the convention center moved, but there is no money to do this. Getting the rail downtown will be key to the center and in time when a new convention center is built then Union Station can be used for transit once again :)
A start with a bad design can doom the future viability of an entire project planned with the best of intentions. The skyway is a perfect example. If we're going to spend +$100 million on a project, the least we can do is plan properly from the beginning.
Planning does not mean you have to build a new convention center tomorrow or even in five. However, it will allow a phased transportation center to be designed the right way from the start.
I agree phasing it would be smart. I don't think the bus and greyhound need to go in right away since they are already downtown. Those can come later. Getting the rail stop ASAP would be the best start.
Also I think making the architecture edgy and modern next to the convention center would spark interest and promote ridership.
Quote from: TheProfessor on November 12, 2009, 01:06:22 PM
I agree phasing it would be smart. I don't think the bus and greyhound need to go in right away since they are already downtown. Those can come later. Getting the rail stop ASAP would be the best start.
Greyhound and bus are the main components of phase 1. Rail is to come later and will be about two blocks away on the south side of the Prime Osborn.
I said this about a year ago when i first saw the plans for this. They need to move the new office building unless they are planning to build it so the skyway can go though it. With it like it is now there will be no way the skyway could be expanded
They don't plan to expand the skyway. Its a political hot potato they don't want to deal with. However, I do agree with you. Putting the office building dead smack dab middle in the way of its path, kills any future opportunity of expanding it to the west.
I wanted to be excited about this, but I really don't like what I am hearing. It sounds like it is going to be yet another example of just doing "something" instead of doing the right thing. The article has quoted aspirations about what kind of place we want to be in 15-20 years.... but nobody has the guts to deal with the terminal/convention center that is staring them right in the face in the present day.
Very troubling. Once you have done something for the sake of doing something, its near impossible to get the people behind spending money a few years down the road to fix what you did and turn it into the "right thing", particularly because nobody within government will ever acknowledge their initial failure to recognize and implement the right thing.
True Tripoli, its just another case of "Its good enough for Jacksonville."
^^that is the thinking that drives me nuts.......we need CHANGE! Take a look at the transportation center proposed in Anaheim, CA.....just a little creativity is all we need folks!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/08/architecture-review-anaheims-proposed-artic-rail-hub.html
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2009, 12:47:07 PM
A start with a bad design can doom the future viability of an entire project planned with the best of intentions. The skyway is a perfect example. If we're going to spend +$100 million on a project, the least we can do is plan properly from the beginning.
Planning does not mean you have to build a new convention center tomorrow or even in five. However, it will allow a phased transportation center to be designed the right way from the start.
Not only plan properly but plan smartly. Jacksonville has thought many times it planned properly, but the project didn't work because the City didn't plan smartly (skyway is a perfect example). We must carefully and thoughtfully (and smartly) think things through before submitting the final plan and proposal to the feds for the stimulus money.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2009, 03:23:09 PM
They don't plan to expand the skyway. Its a political hot potato they don't want to deal with. However, I do agree with you. Putting the office building dead smack dab middle in the way of its path, kills any future opportunity of expanding it to the west.
Do you agree Lake that the skyway may influence the fed to not give Jax the funds for this project? I would hope not but as you say the skyway is such a "hot potato" in many different aspects and ways, that they probably will not be able to turn a blind eye to how we piddled fed money on the skyway project and it was basically a failure.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: fsujax on November 12, 2009, 04:08:18 PM
^^that is the thinking that drives me nuts.......we need CHANGE! Take a look at the transportation center proposed in Anaheim, CA.....just a little creativity is all we need folks!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/08/architecture-review-anaheims-proposed-artic-rail-hub.html
Nice find. That's a pretty good looking and compact facility.
I think we just need to flood the city with emails or start a petition or something. Sitting here whining about will do absolutely nothing.
(http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a5263e6c970b-500wi)
(http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a5264031970b-320wi)
(http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.a/6a00d8341c630a53ef0120a52641a5970b-pi)
QuoteMaybe the rents from related activities could pay some bills.
STJR - Take a look at retail around town, the "retail" associated with the courthouse parking lot has been vacant, for the most part, since they built the thing. A shoe shop, a diner, what more could you really add to the building to help it pay for the light bill?
No word if the building will be green, with LEED credits? Scary...
We're all putting the cart before the horse, the feds have 1400 requests for the money totalling 57 Billion, and they are only prepared to dole out 1.5 billion. So there will be a LOT of unhappy campers around their christmas trees.
I agree Lake, keep it simple, scrap the buildings, fix the transportation issue FIRST. Add other needs as money is available, but this is a TRANSPORTATION Solution and it should immediately solve transportation issues, not provide a new downtown box with new furnishings. We have plenty of empty space in other "historical" downtown space, if any of these entities care to move. We don't need new digs right now!
Quote from: ralpho37 on November 12, 2009, 04:49:52 PM
I think we just need to flood the city with emails or start a petition or something. Sitting here whining about will do absolutely nothing.
Believe me, I have not been just sitting here whining. In the last few months, I've met with Adam Hollingsworth, Micheal Blaylock and the JTA crew and Bill Killingsworth about it on separate occasions. I'm just going to keep talking about it in hopes of something positive finally happening before its too late.
The first thing that strikes me is the HUGE failure to have an all-weather airport-style concourse with moving sidewalks and handicapped car pathway connecting ALL modes of transit from Amtrak to Greyhound running down JOHNSON STREET to minimize connectivity times and travel distance. Connecting to the office building is not why this project is on the boards and should not dictate the location of the connecting concourse.
Also, where is the master plan for streetcar connectivity? Taxi cabs? Bikes? Rental cars? A hotel? Visitors bureau? I could add lots more things to put here. And, as noted, this could be made much more compact with better planning and maybe use of multilayering (e.g. bus terminal under the $ky-high-way or below the Greyhound facility) rather than building outward.
Has JTA/FDOT ever heard of "brain storming", talking with users or potential users, going to see other facilities to find what works well and what doesn't? Or, are they too "smart" for that? This looks like a product of the usual bureaucratic process mixed with incestuous thinking with the same worthless consultants and JTA/FDOT "experts". This "proven" method of operation is guaranteed to produce a result lacking in creativity, vision, inspiration, or full functionality and fulfillment of purpose.
This isn't being approached as an intermodal facility, but rather as separate functions that happen to be side by side. And, the real driver is getting nice, new offices for all the bureaucrats, not serving the travelling public. The architects, consultants, JTA, COJ, and FDOT clearly aren't up to this task. As a result, for now, I withhold my support based on the current plans. I hope the Feds don't do us another $ky-high-way style "favor" and fund this as it is currently proposed.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Miscellaneous/jrtcsite/455355060_QyaKc-L.jpg)
Lake, I am really glad to hear that. I apologize if my earlier remark seemed insulting, but I just wanted to point out that our vision will not become reality unless we push this thing hard to the city. I've been in some email battles with several city councilmen, but I feel that it will take a lot more than a few emails to get our point across.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2009, 04:39:44 PM
Quote from: fsujax on November 12, 2009, 04:08:18 PM
^^that is the thinking that drives me nuts.......we need CHANGE! Take a look at the transportation center proposed in Anaheim, CA.....just a little creativity is all we need folks!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2009/08/architecture-review-anaheims-proposed-artic-rail-hub.html
Nice find. That's a pretty good looking and compact facility.
just don't ask what the pricetag is
tufsu, 180 million is nothing. Just think, we could have built a vertical skyscraper courthouse with non-luxurious features for 200 million and used the extra 180 million to build an amazing, tourist attraction/transit station. We could have had 2 for the price of one! Instead we got Peyton/Moran crap and JTA crap that doesn't even exist yet, for the same price.
Brilliant City of Jacksonville, just brilliant. ::)
(http://jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/110809TransportationCenter.jpg)
PLAN DETAILS
Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center
Phase 1
-- Stations for bus rapid transit
-- Greyhound station
-- 200 parking spaces
-- 8,000 square-feet of retail space on Johnson and Forsyth streets.
-- Public plaza facing Johnson Street.
-- Four-story, 60,000 square-foot building housing most regional transportation officials.
Future phases would include:
-- Amtrak station that could incorporate future commuter rail and high-speed rail.
-- Renovation of Prime Osborn Convention Center to make it part of the Amtrak station when conventions aren't occurring.
-- Elevated, 2,000-space parking garage.
Source: Jacksonville Transportation Authority
(http://jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/110809TransportationCenter.jpg)
BRT and the $ky-high-way on the same block! That says it all :D Need I say more?
Separately, let's do a little virtualization of the future concept. A commuter train arrives, deposits 300 (a low number for a train) downtown workers at Prime Osborn. These 300 commuters then walk north the equivalent of a block and a half from the train and through the terminal. Because JTA workers selfishly want to walk out their office door to play with their expensive toys, commuters must then walk west for another block down the side of the convention center to the "JTA office concourse". From there, they must again walk north across the street for another half block to the $ky-high-way station. I count that as a three block walk just to TRANSFER.
And, now for some more fun. The 300 riders crowd the undersized $ky-high-way platform waiting for the under capacity $ky-high-way to show up every 15 minutes, if they are lucky. Maybe, after 45 minutes, or more, all 300 have caught a ride "into town". But wait! During that 45 minutes or more, another commuter train arrived from the opposite side of town at the Amtrak station and dropped another 300 riders off. Finally, by mid-afternoon, the $ky-high-way has caught up with the train loads of commuters. This was such a "success", we will repeat the process in reverse in the late afternoon.
Soooo...the question is, how many people are projected to arrive at various intervals on high-capacity commuter trains and how will the low capacity $ky-high-way ever be able to keep up? And, who will walk three blocks just for an intermodal transfer? ??? And, we still haven't addressed the $ky-high-way's evil twin, the BRT, and it's added traffic load on the $ky-high-way. Or is JTA figuring no one is going to ride any of this stuff anyway, so who cares about matching capacities. The way JTA runs and designs things for failure, they may be right.
Remember the skyway trams do not have to in the 2 car config they are now. You can link. More to handle big rushes.
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 12, 2009, 11:44:51 PM
Remember the skyway trams do not have to in the 2 car config they are now. You can link. More to handle big rushes.
I understand. Even so, no $ky-high-way "train" is going to come anywhere close to matching the capacity of a commuter train. And, don't forget the buses. Problem still unsolved. Try again.
I am still confused as to how someone thinks the "Public Servants" will want to walk 3 blocks and transfer multiple times. Skyway on time and with more cars (Gee we thought $14 Million for something going nowhere with no one was expensive?)BRT in operation.......makes me wonder just where JTA is gonna get the money for those bus's (Oh I know......Mayor Johnny is going to initiate a new Transportation "FEE"!) Something is wrong here....supposedly we are trying to improve downtown......to attract homeowners, business's, make over the downtown to something that is user friendly and pretty to boot. Instead of going up, this proposal is going out by taking over about a three block area! I say we throw whoever's idea this was out the window! Not efficient, not pretty and not cost effective! Real estate is too valuable to waste.....they should be considering up not out! I try to think outside of the box, but this is bureaucracy at its best .......Gate Precast will be working hard! If this is the best they can come up with, we need some more AIMO's cause the old ones are getting stale!
Quote from: stjr on November 12, 2009, 11:50:38 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on November 12, 2009, 11:44:51 PM
Remember the skyway trams do not have to in the 2 car config they are now. You can link. More to handle big rushes.
I understand. Even so, no $ky-high-way "train" is going to come anywhere close to matching the capacity of a commuter train. And, don't forget the buses. Problem still unsolved. Try again.
The way it looks, we'll have two transportation centers. A bus/skyway/greyhound complex and an Amtrak/commuter rail/streetcar complex a three block walk away. A good percentage of those commuter rail riders will probably hop on the adjacent streetcar line, running down Park and Water Streets instead of making the three block transfer.
To be fair Lake, its more like a 2 block walk.
An for those who think the Anaheim station is much more compact, take a look at the sketches....the entire complex from end to end looks to be over 1000' long (look at the baseball stadium in the background)....and the train station grand lobby looks larger than grand Central Station in NYC which is 2 blocks long!
Finally, not that I think the JRTC layout is great....but how far do most of us walk in a large airport.....I mean eah concourse in Atlanta is like 1/3 mile long end to end!
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 13, 2009, 08:22:10 AM
To be fair Lake, its more like a 2 block walk...
...Finally, not that I think the JRTC layout is great....but how far do most of us walk in a large airport.....I mean eah concourse in Atlanta is like 1/3 mile long end to end!
Tufsu, its clearly three blocks from their drawings. I even specified the walk in my post. You didn't. Tell me how 1 1/2 + 1 + 1/2 = 2? You are doing the JTA math and that's why everything they do disappoints.
Also, long walks in airports today are usually supported with moving sidewalks. Do we have anything like that here? The other difference is most people only walk through airports occasionally, not part of a twice a day routine some 250 days a year. And, airport users don't have other options whereas commuters do. Make it too hard and you will "drive" :D them away.
JTA and you think too much like engineers, treating people as robotic machines, not humans that will always be looking for the path of least resistance. This is why the $ky-high-way is a failure and the BRT will lack success. Add this "intermodal" complex to the list if it proceeds as currently planned.
I'd toss out the whole airport issue. Its a different animal because it does not cater to regular local commuters transferring to different modes and is not located in a downtown urban environment.
Also, from the rendering the Anaheim transportation center looked like it included transit oriented development. Our sprawling plan is strictly a transportation center.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 13, 2009, 08:22:10 AM
Finally, not that I think the JRTC layout is great....but how far do most of us walk in a large airport.....I mean eah concourse in Atlanta is like 1/3 mile long end to end!
Which is great, since most people travel by air every day, and everyone seems to enjoy it :)
Believe me...I agree that the complex is too sprawled out....but to be fair, the mid-block between Forsyth and Adams is just that....and the distance from bay to Forsyth is small.
Furthermore, the main transfers will be from JTA bus to Skyway (1 small block) and rail to skyway (2-3 blocks)....and since we're not likely to move the skyway or the rail lines, we'll never shorten that distance.
A better example...how many fo you have been to Port Authority terminal in NYC...it covers several city blocks and often requires a 3 block walk (length equivelant) from bus to subway.
Except if you kick the convention center out. Then all of the bus connections could be built between the skyway and the rail platforms and the longest stretch between modes would be a three block walk between the skyway and Amtrak/commuter rail. Also, the more compact set up would allow for retail to have a higher survival rate.
Putting retail space along Johnson, instead of Forsyth or Bay (high traffic streets) it highly questionable since no one knows what, if anything, will happen to the three blocks of dirt on the east side of Johnson. Its sort of like opening a store up to the back or side alley instead of the main street where everyone walks and drives.
Yes, Lake....the overall layout is weak and could be much better....but too many folks are focusing on the distance as THE problem....and that's just not the case!
The distance (primarily between commuter rail/streetcar & bus/skyway) could negatively impact regular transfers between these modes. Especially if the arrival/departure times aren't properly coordinated. It really is a transit center next door to the old train terminal with a rail platform a couple of blocks away. Because of the layout, I can see a closer relationship developing between the streetcar, commuter rail and Amtrak. Outside of FCCJ and Hemming Plaza, there would really be no need to transfer from commuter rail to the skyway, if the streetcar is developed.
sent my thoughts on it to this guy here, of course didnt hear anything back:
mikeb@jtaonthemove.com
is he still jta director?
I would guess the most likely connections would be between commuter rail and buses and/or street cars.
The $ky-high-way doesn't appear to have the capacity to keep up with rail, is too far for most from the rails, probably can't run the headway frequency that street cars and buses can, and, most importantly, doesn't have the flexibility to take people close enough to where they may wish to travel. That's why the $ky-high-way has never worked and never will. It needs to be removed as a link to any greater transit system as it will always be the "weakest link" bringing the entire system down to a level that users won't tolerate. It's time to substitute street cars for the $ky-high-way. What's bothersome is not seeing any provision for street cars in the posted concepts. Who is thinking ahead here?
I think all these concepts were drawn up way before JTA even started looking at streetcars. Don't be so worried because you dont seem them in the rendering.
Quote from: fsujax on November 13, 2009, 02:26:46 PM
Don't be so worried because you dont seem them in the rendering.
Based on their history, we should always be worried about what JTA is up to! - and, NOT up to! :D
Lake and Ock, I presume that street cars also require a maintenance and operations facility and yard. How much land would be needed to support dozens, and, maybe someday, hundreds of streetcars? Could part of the Prime Osborn site fill this role? If not, how about the current JTA HQ's site? Where else might we look?
The streetcar maintenance facility could be built adjacent to the current Skyway maintenance facility. Plenty of room there.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 13, 2009, 01:55:37 PM
Outside of FCCJ and Hemming Plaza, there would really be no need to transfer from commuter rail to the skyway, if the streetcar is developed.
Don't forget about the Southbank. The skyway will be the primary connection over there.
You're right. I forgot about that one, although a commuter rail station is also proposed for the Southbank, near the intersection of San Marco Blvd & Prudential Dr.
You know, it might be worth considering NOT placing a commuter rail station on the Southbank. If the only downtown station was at the Prime Osborn Center, it would promote ridership on the Skyway.
Quote from: ralpho37 on November 13, 2009, 05:03:46 PM
You know, it might be worth considering NOT placing a commuter rail station on the Southbank. If the only downtown station was at the Prime Osborn Center, it would promote ridership on the Skyway.
No, it would promote NOT taking commuter rail if the $ky-high-way is made a part of its intermodal chain.
The funny thing is, according to the study Gannett Fleming did last year, a Southbank commuter rail station would attract more use than one at the transportation center. Probably because it would be within a block of Baptist Medical, Prudential and Aetna.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 13, 2009, 05:43:03 PM
The funny thing is, according to the study Gannett Fleming did last year, a Southbank commuter rail station would attract more use than one at the transportation center. Probably because it would be within a block of Baptist Medical, Prudential and Aetna.
And, add Interline. Steinmart, Riverplace/Wachovia Tower, and all the Southbank hotels, condos, and a few restaurants would be just another few walkable blocks. A looping street car through the Southbank and San Marco would seal the deal.
A streetcar won't work because you can't get it over the railroad tracks or across the river. That leaves you with the skyway, as your best option, if your goal is to connect San Marco with high frequency transit not impacted by freight train schedules.
Gentlemen...............we are busy trying to make chicken soup out of chicken s***! Nothing has been planned for this kind of conglomeration from the beginning and we are busy trying to make sense of it. I don't think that this layout is optimal nor is it user friendly.......just makes it easier for big brother to watch over! Gee I wonder what kind of "FEE" Mayor Johnny will come up with to fund this fiasco! I mean we are building a white elephant Court House that we will have to cough up $350 Million dollars for (anyone want to take a bet that it will run over?) just because Judge Moran wants a new office and Johnny can't run the City like a business. Whopee....can't wait till the next shoe drops!
whether you like the plan or not, you can't honestly say that "nothing has been planned..."
As for the courthouse, maybe you should read the article in today's paper....Angela Corey is asking for a bridge and Judge Moran ius saying no.
stjr: I'm a little lost, explain to me how implementing the Skyway would deter riders.
yes, tufsu1, hop on over to the "bridge vs. dome" thread and have at it. There is no way you can win an argument in support of Judge Moran and his influence over the $350 million dollar project. Are you really that gullible? I doubt it, because you come across as a pretty intelligent guy when you post. You just have to be more skeptical. There is always an angle with these folks. They can't be trusted so easily.
brainstormer.........I'm with you! tufsu1 can say what he wants, I won't tell him he can't.....but to go from 190 Million which was the original voter approved scenerio to the current 350 Million white elephant (I still say it will be more .....any takers?) and people wonder why no one trusts Government? I don't trust Judge Moran any further than I can throw him down the road...............and Mayor Johnny went right along! Gee it is too bad he won't be paying for it!
Brainstormer...believe it or not, I am quite skeptical and very aware of the GOB network....I just get bit annoyed at how some on this site always jump to conclusions with little factual information.
CS...Mayor Johnny is likely paying more for it than you are.
Well tufsu1......leme paint a picture for ya.....Prime Osburn Center! Railroad Square Inc bought it from the railroads then sold it to the Jacksonville Convention Center Joint Venture for $3.9 Million. The Venture Group then sold to the City for $5.8 Million (Note profit of $1.5 Million) That's money the City could have saved dealing directly with the railroads. But the real kicker was that the Venture Group was handed the contract to convert the terminal into a Convention Center without public bids as required by Law! The project was over Budget, late and had leakage problems that did damage to the insides! All of this information is out there .....you just have to find it..........but I vear off subject.....The New Transportation Center is going too be a picture image of the same scenario with the only difference Eminent Domain being used to acquire about 3 square blocks and JTA can not afford to spend much money on what is being proposed so they must have an alternate plan probably based on new "Fee's". Better Jacksonville had the Courthouse cost's locked in and voter approved at $190 Million and current cost is projected at $350...........I say it will be doubled in reality! I would also say that there will be no Audit to verify just what the total cost will come out to! Now you can call whatever but the handwriting has been there for all to see for a number of years.........GOB Network is hard at work lining their pockets with my money and I am getting tired of it!
well CS...let me lay these three things out for you
1. I don't really care what happened 20 years ago....we need to respect history (otherwise doomed to repeat it), but it has nothing to do with the current administration or my tax dollars today.
2. JTA isn't funding the transportation center....it was/is to be funded with FDOT transit money...unfortunately, project costs around he state have risen and revenues have gone down so the money isn't in the 5-year work program....the only thing that changes this is the potential for federal stimulus money through the TIGER grant program
3. As stated above, project costs all over the state (and country) go up...this is especially true for a courthouse that had a placeholder number in the BJP even though no design work had been done.....that said, the contractor agreed to a maximum upset limit that won't have the total costs coming in at more than $350 million....I would say to you that there is 0% chance that the project would cost $700 million
Quote from: ralpho37 on November 14, 2009, 01:15:06 AM
stjr: I'm a little lost, explain to me how implementing the Skyway would deter riders.
Ralph, see the numerous $ky-high-way threads under this Forum ("Transportation, Mass Transit, and Infrastructure") at the MJ tab "Forums". The easiest way to find the biggest threads is to open the Forum, click on the "Views" column twice (the first will list threads from least to greatest, the second, from greatest to least). You will see the threads discussing the $ky-high-way appearing frequently in the most viewed threads. If you still need me to provide links, just repost and I will get them for you.
If I explain it to you here, there will be an instant 100 posts or more rehashing the whole subject over the next few months. 8) Happy reading!
Well tufsu1 unless the citizens take heed, history will repeat itself. FDOT transit money comes from the public does it not? I mean that is our money at work unless FDOT has a money tree in its backyard! Let me fill you in on the CURRENT ADMINISTRATION: Super Bowl Host Committee promised the city's financial risk would not exceed the budgeted $8.3 Million Dollars! In the end the city spent $11 Million Dollars but no one seems to know where the money went.....The Host Committee declined to make expense records and invoices available to the Council Auditor. I still have not figured out just why we had to pay anything much less $8.3 Million Dollars. How many Millions was spent on the "Shipyards" and I might add......nothing to show for it! How about contracts awarded to company's not qualified to get awarded those contracts(Scott Teagle) or how about sole-source purchases made without legally required public bids (don't have enough time to list all of those occurrences) All I know is you can go back 40 years from today...........business as usual, GOB Network hard at it lining their pockets......I plan on doing my part, no incumbent to be reelected unless they have proven beyond doubt they represent the people who voted them into office. I can't wait for the current Administration to leave but I have to!
$kyway was predicted to cost $78 Million and the actual cost was $250 Million. Ridership prediction was supposed to exceed 50,000 a day.....Average weekday ridership running around 1,700 per day and total cost per year about $14 Million.......those numbers just are not in our favor!
Quote from: CS Foltz on November 15, 2009, 08:00:10 AM
Well tufsu1......leme paint a picture for ya.....Prime Osburn Center! Railroad Square Inc bought it from the railroads then sold it to the Jacksonville Convention Center Joint Venture for $3.9 Million. The Venture Group then sold to the City for $5.8 Million (Note profit of $1.5 Million) That's money the City could have saved dealing directly with the railroads. But the real kicker was that the Venture Group was handed the contract to convert the terminal into a Convention Center without public bids as required by Law! The project was over Budget, late and had leakage problems that did damage to the insides! All of this information is out there .....you just have to find it......GOB Network is hard at work lining their pockets with my money and I am getting tired of it!
CS, you are right. The convention center deal was a big time GOB slugfest. The only reason it was more obvious than usual was that the GOB's had a civil war. Half were in on the Prime Osborn site, and half in on the Sears Block (now the Omni and Wachovia block). I thought Ortegans would never speak to each other again after that fight (maybe they didn't, I don't live there). It was definitely welfare for the rich and a scam for the taxpayers. Who had the most political pull was the determining factor, not which site was best. If only the T-U would digitize and make publicly available all the newspapers of the day!Quote from: tufsu1 on November 15, 2009, 08:48:31 AM
1. I don't really care what happened 20 years ago....we need to respect history (otherwise doomed to repeat it), but it has nothing to do with the current administration or my tax dollars today.
Everything done in Jax is a direct legacy of our past "deals". We can't and shouldn't ignore them. One must know the "players" and the "baggage" they bring to the table to know "why" things in Jax get "railroaded" to the detriment of the taxpayers.Quote2. JTA isn't funding the transportation center....it was/is to be funded with FDOT transit money...unfortunately, project costs around he state have risen and revenues have gone down so the money isn't in the 5-year work program....the only thing that changes this is the potential for federal stimulus money through the TIGER grant program
Doesn't matter where the money comes from. It all comes, in the end, from the Taxpayers. JTA and FDOT are the "developers", regardless of the funding. So, they are accountable for the design and the costs to build it. And, before funding there is the planning. During planning, we are told, don't worry, there is no funding. By the time it's funded, we are usually told it's too late to change the planning. Not interested in bureaucratic buck passing.Quote3. As stated above, project costs all over the state (and country) go up...this is especially true for a courthouse that had a placeholder number in the BJP even though no design work had been done.....that said, the contractor agreed to a maximum upset limit that won't have the total costs coming in at more than $350 million....I would say to you that there is 0% chance that the project would cost $700 million
There should have been 0% chance that the courthouse went over $190 million or any of the climbing "new" numbers leading up to the current $350 million. CS is right to doubt anything we are told by public officials when most everything they tell us turns out to not just be wrong, but WAY wrong. You want to continue to believe all these things for whatever reason, so be it, but, most of your fellow citizens are highly cynical and skeptical, and rightfully so, based on that history you so readily dismiss. We are tired of incompetence in our local public works projects and deserve better. Public officials need to EARN our trust the hard way - by doing the right thing for the public over and over.
It seems to me that CS (and to a lesser degree stjr) will not be satisfied with anything that JTA or the administration does....now they're complaining about $11 million spent on the Super Bowl...really?
I guess you're right...I mean all we got was worldwide publicity, a huge street festival, lighted bridges, a bunch of money spent in our city (which means tax revenue), new sidewalks, street lights, etc.
As for taxpayers funding things (regardless of whether its local, state, or federal)...Florida has been so abysmal in the past at securing federal transit funds that we only get about $0.62 on every $1.00 we contribute....if we don't want our money, I'm sure there are many other states that will be more than happy to take it!
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 15, 2009, 09:16:36 PM
It seems to me that CS (and to a lesser degree stjr) will not be satisfied with anything that JTA or the administration does....now they're complaining about $11 million spent on the Super Bowl...really?
I guess you're right...I mean all we got was worldwide publicity, a huge street festival, lighted bridges, a bunch of money spent in our city (which means tax revenue), new sidewalks, street lights, etc.
As for taxpayers funding things (regardless of whether its local, state, or federal)...Florida has been so abysmal in the past at securing federal transit funds that we only get about $0.62 on every $1.00 we contribute....if we don't want our money, I'm sure there are many other states that will be more than happy to take it!
Tufsu, I don't recall you position in our community but you consistently side with government officials and agencies. That's OK and I welcome your insights into their "reasoning" even if I often find them short of the mark.
But with your apparent perspective, you also seem to be blind to the viewpoints of many of your fellow taxpayer citizens who see things from an entirely different perspective.
It's not that citizens don't support most (certainly, not all!) of the projects proposed by public officials. Heck, the BJP was actually approved by the voters. And, it's not that we don't want as much of our federal and state dollars to be returned to our community where it makes sense to us as citizens, not just of Jax, but of Florida and the USA.
What we do want, is, that at all times, officials in every capacity and level of government perform adequately their fiduciary responsibility to us, the taxpayers, by making informed and well reasoned decisions for the overall public good and not in the interest of their careers and special friends, manage our resources (that would usually be money and other assets of our community) efficiently and with integrity, and communicate honestly and with candor, for better or worse, as to what is or, likely, will happen to the projects and issues we entrust them to take leadership in.
What CS is demonstrating are the instances that are way too frequent in which our public officials incompetently or deliberately deliver projects and/or mislead the public on. Being upset with that behavior doesn't mean being against the project, it means just what we are saying, that public officials are no longer credible on such projects or ones like them.
You may wish to blindly trust those who have repeatedly let you down, but many others, including us, are not.
For what it is worth, I do support many of the projects initiated by the City, JTA, and FDOT. Where they repeatedly lose me (and others) is in their usually very poor execution of those projects compounded by their failure to take responsibility and to learn from those failures. Do this in the corporate world and you will be out of business. Do this in government, and there are seldom any consequences. We want such people held accountable.
Both CS, I, and other MJ posters have provided factual support and countless examples of public project failures. It's time to stop accepting at face value and/or making excuses for why things are the way they are and work together to make them what they should be - the very best! Only then, will our community advance to the highest levels we all wish to see.
that is fair
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 15, 2009, 10:19:48 PM
that is fair
Great, Tufsu. You appear to be on the "inside" of some of these projects. Your assistance in holding them to the highest of standards on behalf of the Taxpayers is appreciated. :)
I don't care if the add on to the skyway or replace the red and yellow stripes, as long as it creates jobs and puts people to work, I'm all for it.
Well tufsu1 as "stjr" pointed out much more succinctly and concisely than I did...........I am all for enhancing what we have here in Jacksonville! I would like to have transparent, ethical and accountable government! The waste that I have seen taking place drives me up the wall since all that comes out is ignored or just flat sluffed off! I am not against a New Transportation Center, but against the place where it is being discussed. It would seem to me that using Eminent Domain to take over 3 blocks is not in the best interest's of the public. The planning,at this point, is suspect and should not be set in stone,especially with no funding! Whether it is FDOT or Federal Funds you and I are paying for it and if FDOT is not pursing their fair share then they are lacking .....whether it is Jacksonville or Tallahassee not doing what should be done, I am not sure but someone should be accountable and I see no one stepping up to the line but lots of grandiose plans. Long range vision must be a part of anyones perception of what could be and whether or not it is cost effective.....not to mention Ethical!
Damn! Leave you guys alone for a week and all hell breaks loose! Gimme a few hours to digest this and release a fusillade into this scheme. To put the proper slant on it, I'm not only with Lakelander on this, but to move forward on the current "plan" has got more Stupid-Per-Square-Inch (SPSI) then the blooming "explosion-in-a-pillar-factory," going up on Monroe. Greyhound? 3 blocks north?
Amtrak? Someday? In a flood plain? BRT? WHAT BRT? Convention Center? OH GOD! BOHICA EVERYONE!
OCKLAWAHA
I'm not convinced that this city needs a convention center at all, period. Just close it and use the space for the transportation hub and put a new convention center on the wish list or let private enterprise fill the vacuum (if there is one).
If this city wants to be recognized as a major business center and first tier community, a quality convention center is a must. However, a poor facility next door to Greyhound and a JTA bus depot is just like not having one.
lake .....I agree! I too am not sure about consolidating everything into one basket and using the shotgun approach probably is not the best choice. Convention Center (Prime Osburn) all ready has both tracks and positioning so it may be cost effective to return it to Rail Glory! Both local and Amtrak service. There are 22 acres connected with the building and don't see much being discussed regarding useage? $kyway is across the street and there is the connection to across the River(with a cost of $20k per rider average, kill it or continue to spend $14 Million a year to subsidize and use the hell out of it) Those 22 acres connected to the Prime Osburn facility could and should be utilized for a real Convention Center. Build up, spiral w/glass and a center core access and poof! A real Convention Center state of the Art and a transportation hub with real prospects along with routes in and out of Jacksonville..........add local LRT and downtown would be so hot it could go into spontaneous combustion. But that's just my take! Plenty of property in the region available for developement and if bought soon real cheap!
Those 22 acres would be better used for transportation purposes, as they originally were. If we expand the convention center on that parking lot, we still never address several problems:
1. An attached convention center hotel. (can DT support another Hyatt sized facility without subsidizing it? Most likely not)
2. Complementing entertainment/dining/retail uses. An exhibition hall is just a box. However, a successful convention center needs to be within walking distance of restaurants, retail and dining. The Prime Osborn is a mile a way from these facilities and building a bus depot around it, eliminates the opportunity from happening. In addition, since DT already has these businesses a mile a way (ex. Landing, Bay Street, Florida Theater, etc.), why subsidize additional new development to directly compete against what is already in place?
3. Bus Depot as neighbor. If you we're in charge of booking a business convention what type of facility would you choose?
A. One within walking distance of several hotels and one of the South's major entertainment strips (ex. Nashville)?
Nashville convention center
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563005154_KEGSo-M.jpg)
B. A riverfront center with a hotel and water taxi ride away from one of the most popular historic districts in the country (ex. Savannah)?
Savannah convention center
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2354-p1000538.jpg)
Directly across the river from the Savannah center
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2364-p1000520.jpg)
C. One in the heart of downtown, immediately surrounded by several hotels, retaurants and entertainment uses (ex. Louisville)?
Across the street from Louisville's convention center
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3598-p1060971.jpg)
D. One a mile a way from the DT core and complementing uses (restaurants, retail, hotel) but across the street from the city bus depot (think Rosa Parks/FCCJ station) and Greyhound (Jacksonville)?
My guess is that most will choose another facility.
Quote from: stjr on November 13, 2009, 02:36:12 PM
Lake and Ock, I presume that street cars also require a maintenance and operations facility and yard. How much land would be needed to support dozens, and, maybe someday, hundreds of streetcars? Could part of the Prime Osborn site fill this role? If not, how about the current JTA HQ's site? Where else might we look?
This is something you really wouldn't want in the middle of an attractive intermodal station. Keeping in mind streetcars are a type of LIGHT RAIL TRAIN, with TRAIN being key, a maintenance yard can get ugly fast. The old car barns covered an area from the FEC tracks south through the Skyway car barn to the street, and from Riverside Avenue, west, to the next street. The track work was incredible and the overhead single wire's, become a maze of electric wonders. A freebie from the current Skyway facility, the benefit is BOTH SYSTEMS, streetcar and SKYWAY will likely run on the same 600-700 volt DC system. Current Skyway third rail is 700 volt DC and 99% of streetcars are 600 +/- a few, VERY - VERY - SIMPLE mechanics involved, minus the modern digital "extras". Anybody that can add a car to our Skyway, could wind the motors on our streetcar system.
The old carbarn site is still the best, and most "OUT-of-SIGHT," location we could pick. OCKLAWAHA
There is plenty of room near the Skyway maintenance facility that can be used for a streetcar maintenance facility.
lake I understand the scenario! We don't have all of the infrastructure needed in place and most would have to be either built or added as needed! Maybe a better place might be the Ship Yard area with shuttle or transportation (LR) to the various area's? Just not sure where the proposed area is at should be the one? Heck at that rate........JIA maybe better area for something like that with HSR to Jacksonville?
The current courthouse/city hall annex site on Bay Street would be a pretty good location. There you have enough land to build a center and it would be right next to the Bay Street nightlife district, Hyatt, the riverfront and a short distance from the Landing.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2009, 06:51:04 AM
The current courthouse/city hall annex site on Bay Street would be a pretty good location. There you have enough land to build a center and it would be right next to the Bay Street nightlife district, Hyatt, the riverfront and a short distance from the Landing.
Lake, to clarify, as this thread is wobbling back and forth, I suppose you are referring to the convention center, not a street car maintenance center discussed by Ock.
As we discussed previously on another MJ thread relating to the convention center, my concern for your chosen site is having adequate access, parking, and the room and proper footprint configuration for an appropriatly sized and ideally shaped building, both for the present and for any future expansion (we don't want to have to go through this entire exercise again 20 years later!).
Quote from: stjr on November 19, 2009, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 19, 2009, 06:51:04 AM
The current courthouse/city hall annex site on Bay Street would be a pretty good location. There you have enough land to build a center and it would be right next to the Bay Street nightlife district, Hyatt, the riverfront and a short distance from the Landing.
Lake, to clarify, as this thread is wobbling back and forth, I suppose you are referring to the convention center, not a street car maintenance center discussed by Ock.
Yes, I was referring to the convention center. I agree with the others that the best place for a streetcar O&M center is adjacent to the Skyway's.
QuoteAs we discussed previously on another MJ thread relating to the convention center, my concern for your chosen site is having adequate access, parking, and the room and proper footprint configuration for an appropriatly sized and ideally shaped building, both for the present and for any future expansion (we don't want to have to go through this entire exercise again 20 years later!).[/b]
Yes, I recall. However, within that discussion I also provided you with a series of graphics, area square footage numbers, design concepts and existing examples of centers on similar urban sites that would take care of those concerns.
Not to mention the fact that linked to the Skyway on Bay and Streetcar on Water/Newnan parking shouldn't have to be provided downtown. THAT is how decent transit and parking policy go hand in hand. "Build your skyscraper here and forget the parking!"
OCKLAWAHA
STJR, to address your concerns.
From the South, the courthouse site has almost direct access from 95. From I-95 North/I-10, access requires navigating through downtown, but it's not bad other than Sunday afternoons.
If you look at an aerial of the site, you'll see the complex could be broken up into 2 to 3 areas. Parking could be on the North side (off the river) and have retail at the bottom to compliment Bay street. The convention center itself could go where the parking lot is with multiple floors (i'm seeing first floor for support and utility functions, second floor one massive unobstructed hall, 3rd floor smaller spaces). The third block on Bay could be mixed use with apts above.
We could take a lesson from the courthouse (if that's even possible) and leave areas of the convention center unfinished for now to cut initial costs. As far as building shape, i don't see how that matters.
I am against any city owned building on the river, but if we must have one, this is the most beneficial to our city. The riverfront should be left for medium height private uses with taller structures a block off. I didn't understand what CS was saying about putting something on the shipyard site, but I'm going to go ahead and axe that idea right now.
(http://www.jtafla.com/futureplans/Media/Galleries/Street-Car.jpg)
(http://consult.worcester.gov.uk/events/1811/images/339.jpg)
No focus on "parking needs" in the city center. It could/should be fed like this...
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 19, 2009, 12:16:59 PM
I am against any city owned building on the river, but if we must have one, this is the most beneficial to our city.
I agree with this point. While its a good idea to take city property off the riverfront, that doesn't necessarily apply to a convention center. We want to get buildings like the courthouse and school board off the river. A convention center can still benefit from riverfront views, since convention planners like to schedule meetings in attractive, desirable locations. Being on a river potentially enhances the drawing power of a convention center. Plenty of cities do it.
Consequently, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to relocate the PO to the river. It doesn't violate the logic of moving city property off the river at all.
Take metro-Jax's plan a put a mixed-use convention center next to the Hyatt. Make the PO a better transit hub. It makes plenty of sense.
Annex could have been reconfigured for a new Courthouse at lots less than what the new white elephant $350 Million Dollar edifice but that's neither here nor there. I concur with the general train of thought........river front would be beneficial from an atheistic point of view, not to mention the proximity of the Hyatt! From my point of view this would appear to be a win win situation for all!
Something's got to give in relation to the current Convention Center (POCC). We lost two huge, annual conventions this year (City-wide Cheerleading & Firefighters) because of the brand new facility in Daytona (right on the ocean with more space in which to grow their events) and because of a lack of TDC funding to keep them here in Jax. The loss of these groups hurt the hotel community and my merchants who had come to rely on the annual business in January. POCC is just too far away from everything. It's hard to book clients there because there are transportation issues getting convention attendees to and from the POCC. I would love to see it relocated to a place that would be beneficial for everyone, but no matter what - parking has to be a big part of that new location.
On a side note (and not representing an opinion of The Landing or the owners): I bet the managment company (SMG) of POCC gets paid to run it regardless if they book business or not. Sounds like a great deal to me! Get paid without doing any work, right? How can I find that kind of job?
The solution to me is the Courthouse property, and the parking lot in front of it, as well as the annex next door.
That has to be the courthouse site - we have to take advantage of the only 966 room hotel we have downtown.
Jacksonville Landing, if we get the streetcar (now funded) and move into the next phase you would be surpirsed what this is going to do for the Landing... NO PARKING involved. Part of the reason, (but not THE reason) for the Skyway's failure is the garage fad that swept the city right after it was built. We went from a few thousand to 30,000+ parking spaces almost overnight. The Skyway was effectively stillborn. I realize y'all have had a bad time with the city and the failed promises of a garage, but consider that we have already built that garage, and are going to build another at the Jacksonville Terminal site.
Streetcar equals transit oriented development to the tune of $5.00 to $1,200 dollars of new investment PER DOLLAR of investment. Had we followed the studies on the Skyway, you would have central station in front of your facility. Now with streetcar, WHEN we build it... THEY WILL COME!
OCKLAWAHA
Lake and others, we are getting off topic on this thread about the convention center, but I will add one comment that was my most significant concern. [Lake, can you find the the thread we last discussed this on? I was unable to locate it readily through the MJ search (which, with the growing number of MJ threads could use some advanced search capabilities, like by date, poster, and/or/if logic, etc.)]
How big a floor plate do we want on the main exhibition hall floor (include exhibition hall, food service support, storage, auxiliary meeting rooms, staging area, grand hall, etc.)? If it is double or more than the Prime Osborn, that would potentially dictate something that from day one would consume the entire proposed site or better. And, where is the room to expand in the next 20 to 25 years if we wish to do so? The main exhibit hall needs to be a rectangle or square, not "L" shaped as I recall Lake last suggested.
For reference, the Prime Osborn is touted as currently having a 78,500 sf (about 1.75 acres) exhibition hall and 265,000 total square feet (a little over 6 acres under roof, with only a very small portion on a second floor).Quote
Serving the community long ago as the "Jacksonville Railroad Terminal," the convention center has transformed into 265,000 gross square feet of space, with a 78,500-square-foot exhibit hall, a 10,000-square-foot ballroom and 22 meeting rooms. The Grand Lobby, a pre-function area, is adorned with 75-foot vaulted ceilings, towering windows and marble floors.
New Convention Center would need to be at least as big as the Prime Osburn is now. Second floor is basically unused and I am not sure just how big it is.....never been up there! I am thinking that the ability to expand up might be usefull rather than expanding horizontally.......after all the foot print is going to be limited by what is there now.