Its nice to see these projects move foward.
(http://jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/BayStreetChange1104.jpg)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-11-03/story/bay_street_will_become_two_way_road_between_ocean_and_newnan_streets
Get ready for people complaining that it'll be harder to get around now. Sorry, buy the downtown area is not meant to be a speed bump on your way to get somewhere else. If you want to get somewhere faster, avoid downtown. If not, park your car, walk around, and enjoy the riverfront.
Even though I live out here in Mandarin, I like driving downtown, parking my truck, and walking around the core. The sounds of the city center and riverfront never get old.
I agree I like being downtown. People here will always complain, remember there's not enough parking downtown either. Should be interesting to see how it goes.
Anyone townie with a "Salt Life" sticker on their SUV that works DT is going to absolutely hate this.
I think its great though! IMO, the only streets that should be one way are State and Union.
Good news indeed.
I'll go a step further than Jason and say that I can at least understand the need for 1) State & Union, 2) Ocean & Main, and 3) Broad and Jefferson to remain as sets of one-way streets.
Frankly, everything else needs to be converted back to two-way. Forsyth, Adams, Monroe, Church, Julia, Pearl, etc.
LOVE IT, let's do em all... Just set's us up for STREETCARS! hee hee!
OCKLAWAHA
A good step.
I'm going to disagree Joe and agree with Jason. All streets except State and Union should be two-way, as S and U serve a purpose until something can be done about the Arlington Expy and Mathews Bridge.
Main Street in the long run is proposed to become a two-way street in the future, and it should be, returning the Main Street Bridge back to actually serving all of Main St, and not just the southbound speedway lanes. At the same time they do that, drop the speedway section and bring it back down to level and make the Southbank more walkable.
They should never have changed any downtown streets to one way in the first place. These streets have been one way for as long as I can remember. Yea for the City of Jax! Let's change them all back to two way streets!
Heights Unknown
One thing to consider: A lot of people have been saying they should "change them back to two way". More streets than people think were one way streets. Some that I know of for a fact are Forsyth, Adams, and Laura. Some were converted, like Ocean, Main, Bridge (now broad street), and Jefferson, but not every one way street is from the 1970's.
Just food for thought.
This will make it easier to cruise around the block looking for that metered parking spot.
Quote from: Steve on November 04, 2009, 01:55:03 PM
One thing to consider: A lot of people have been saying they should "change them back to two way". More streets than people think were one way streets. Some that I know of for a fact are Forsyth, Adams, and Laura. Some were converted, like Ocean, Main, Bridge (now broad street), and Jefferson, but not every one way street is from the 1970's.
Just food for thought.
There are quite a few historical photos floating around, and just judging from that it appears that most of the main thoroughfares downtown were 2-way, at least up through the 50s/60s.
But regardless of when they were originally implemented, I really think this is a very positive step. The mess of unnecessary one-way streets does nothing but force people to drive in huge circles to get where they're going. Each one of these impediments that COJ manages to remove will slowly have an affect on peoples' subconscious decision about where to go and what to do. It's like a supply/demand curve really, if you make something fun and easy people will go. Make it enough of a hassle, and they won't. I think this is a VERY positive step.
And I also agree with the other posters, that Union and State are the only two streets that have anything close to enough traffic to justify being one-way. Everything else should be two-way. The point of the one-way grid was to carry an amount of traffic downtown hasn't seen in at least two decades, and probably won't again in our lifetime. In the meantime, growth isn't helped by inconveniencing those who do want to go there.
I agree with Ock, make 'em three- or four-way streets with one way or two way streetcars added. :)
I was in Brookline, MA the other day, and saw how they have streetcars that mix in just fine with the regular roadways and pedestrians. It's seamlessly integrated commuter rail, and you didn't even notice it was there. But the convenience factor is huge, you can hop right on and be anywhere in 20 minutes with no traffic. I'm sold. I hope someone may actually consider that idea.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on November 07, 2009, 12:07:04 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 04, 2009, 01:55:03 PM
One thing to consider: A lot of people have been saying they should "change them back to two way". More streets than people think were one way streets. Some that I know of for a fact are Forsyth, Adams, and Laura. Some were converted, like Ocean, Main, Bridge (now broad street), and Jefferson, but not every one way street is from the 1970's.
Just food for thought.
There are quite a few historical photos floating around, and just judging from that it appears that most of the main thoroughfares downtown were 2-way, at least up through the 50s/60s.
We used to have a lot of problems with horses running headlong into eachother. To make matters even worse, it was hard to cross the Cow Ford, when your horse had a concussion. QuoteAnd I also agree with the other posters, that Union and State are the only two streets that have anything close to enough traffic to justify being one-way. Everything else should be two-way. The point of the one-way grid was to carry an amount of traffic downtown hasn't seen in at least two decades, and probably won't again in our lifetime. In the meantime, growth isn't helped by inconveniencing those who do want to go there.
I don't, move that traffic to a new and improved version of the MLK, take both of these streets down to ground level to the Stadium area, THEN ramp them over the bridge or MLK, with street level access to the Hart. Remade into big wide Argentina style boulevards or parkways, they could be both beautiful and useful. Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 01:11:37 AM
I agree with Ock, make 'em three- or four-way streets with one way or two way streetcars added. :)
RIGHT ON BROTHER!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 07, 2009, 12:19:15 PM
QuoteAnd I also agree with the other posters, that Union and State are the only two streets that have anything close to enough traffic to justify being one-way. Everything else should be two-way. The point of the one-way grid was to carry an amount of traffic downtown hasn't seen in at least two decades, and probably won't again in our lifetime. In the meantime, growth isn't helped by inconveniencing those who do want to go there.
I don't, move that traffic to a new and improved version of the MLK, take both of these streets down to ground level to the Stadium area, THEN ramp them over the bridge or MLK, with street level access to the Hart. Remade into big wide Argentina style boulevards or parkways, they could be both beautiful and useful.
OCKLAWAHA
Another no-brainer, easily implemented solution fostering urban core renewal!
I was reading this thread and wondering if an elevated version of state/union could improve the area, but your solution is so simple it's
midboggling. Have our city planners ever considered such?
(errr... mindbottling)
I love the idea of two way streets again.
And especially Main Street. You ought to go slow down Main Street, anywhere you are.
And I'll be real daring here and say State and Union should be two way as well. We already have a limited access east-west expressway just a couple of miles north. Utilizing State and Union as expressways (which they essentially are) cuts off the urban neighborhoods of Springfield/Eastside/Durkeeville from being a part of a downtown. When I mentioned that recently, someone said "they have to empty the stadium quickly." However, why should traffic decisions for the entire year be based on a few hours of traffic flow during 12 days a year? (10 Jags, Ga/Fla and Gator Bowl.) I know...it'll probably never happen, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't. :-)
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on November 08, 2009, 08:57:13 PM
And I'll be real daring here and say State and Union should be two way as well. We already have a limited access east-west expressway just a couple of miles north. Utilizing State and Union as expressways (which they essentially are) cuts off the urban neighborhoods of Springfield/Eastside/Durkeeville from being a part of a downtown. When I mentioned that recently, someone said "they have to empty the stadium quickly." However, why should traffic decisions for the entire year be based on a few hours of traffic flow during 12 days a year? (10 Jags, Ga/Fla and Gator Bowl.) I know...it'll probably never happen, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't. :-)
A "compromise" would be to stripe State and Union like Bay Street just was. Most of the time, it's two way, but during rush hour or special events, it is mostly or entirely in one direction. This would be the best of all worlds.
Does anyone else find all the traffic lights on the street a little overwhelming, especially at night? I drove through there the other night and it looked a little crazy with all the added green arrows and red X's on top of all the normal traffic lights................
All the lights just add to the entertaionment district feel ;)
Yea I can see where the lights could distract some new drivers
DIA's identified funding to convert Forsyth and Adams streets to two-way.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/02/12/dia-finds-money-to-two-way-a-pair-of-downtown.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline
Awesome, but I wouldn't start with these two. I'd start with Hogan and Julia. But, these should definitely be done.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on February 12, 2020, 04:08:53 PM
DIA's identified funding to convert Forsyth and Adams streets to two-way.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/02/12/dia-finds-money-to-two-way-a-pair-of-downtown.html?iana=hpmvp_jac_news_headline
Awesome! That's a lot of money to just change signs...are they going to remove parking on one side and make angled parking on one side and a wide buffered bike lane connecting to the emerald trail?
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Awesome, but I wouldn't start with these two. I'd start with Hogan and Julia. But, these should definitely be done.
I agree with Hogan (maybe that will happen when their is more money in the emerald trail plan) but Julia can wait imo, right now it's surrounded by parking lots, garages and municipal buildings.
Quote from: jagsonville on February 12, 2020, 04:23:56 PM
That's a lot of money to just change signs...
It's a lot more than just changing signs. You've got to repave, re-stripe, install new traffic signals, reconfigure pavement markings on adjacent roadways, AND change signs.
Quote from: jagsonville on February 12, 2020, 04:32:21 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Awesome, but I wouldn't start with these two. I'd start with Hogan and Julia. But, these should definitely be done.
I agree with Hogan (maybe that will happen when their is more money in the emerald trail plan) but Julia can wait imo, right now it's surrounded by parking lots, garages and municipal buildings.
Try this: Go west on Adams, Duval, or Ashley, and try to make a left if you miss the left turn on Laura. It's Clay then Jefferson. Less about the individual roads and more about the usability of all of downtown.
Though I acknowledge, by doing Forsyth and Adams you could spur retail development.
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 04:41:10 PM
Quote from: jagsonville on February 12, 2020, 04:32:21 PM
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Awesome, but I wouldn't start with these two. I'd start with Hogan and Julia. But, these should definitely be done.
I agree with Hogan (maybe that will happen when their is more money in the emerald trail plan) but Julia can wait imo, right now it's surrounded by parking lots, garages and municipal buildings.
Try this: Go west on Adams, Duval, or Ashley, and try to make a left if you miss the left turn on Laura. It's Clay then Jefferson. Less about the individual roads and more about the usability of all of downtown.
Though I acknowledge, by doing Forsyth and Adams you could spur retail development.
Agreed. I think Lori is most interested in enhancing retail development. I guess in the perfect world she would probably do more and is essentially exhausting all available money to get Forsyth and Adams done. Too bad she thought it was a bad idea to replenish the fund.. ???
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 12, 2020, 04:32:39 PM
Quote from: jagsonville on February 12, 2020, 04:23:56 PM
That's a lot of money to just change signs...
It's a lot more than just changing signs. You've got to repave, re-stripe, install new traffic signals, reconfigure pavement markings on adjacent roadways, AND change signs.
Makes sense, hopefully they also include some other enhancements but maybe $5 million will be just be for the items you listed.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 12, 2020, 04:32:39 PM
Quote from: jagsonville on February 12, 2020, 04:23:56 PM
That's a lot of money to just change signs...
It's a lot more than just changing signs. You've got to repave, re-stripe, install new traffic signals, reconfigure pavement markings on adjacent roadways, AND change signs.
Will probably include at least a minor resurfacing, as it is the easiest way to get rid of existing pavement markings. A minor resurfacing is what the City usually does - only take the very top off the existing pavement (if anything is taken off) and add a thin layer of paving. FDOT typcially does a full "mill and resurface" where they take several inches of paving off, often down to the base, and then replace the pavement; this gets rid of any structural problems in the roadway, instead of just covering them over.
The article doesn't say if the DIA plan is for the full length of Adams and Forsyth - all the way from Myrtle Avenue on the west to Liberty Street on the east. The part of Adams east of Liberty will have to remain one-way, due to the (soon to be truncated) Hart Xway ramp coming down to ground at Liberty.
Wonder if they will ask FDOT to cover the cost of the necessary changes at the intersections with Main Street and Ocean Street? Shouldn't be very expensive, just some signs - the pavement markings will just change on Adams and Forsyth, so the City should cover that.
Quote from: Steve on February 12, 2020, 04:19:50 PM
Awesome, but I wouldn't start with these two. I'd start with Hogan and Julia. But, these should definitely be done.
Hogan is going to be converted into the Emerald Trail. From what I understand that project is being budgeted for FY21. One lane will be converted into a trail/cycle track, making Hogan a one lane, one way northbound corridor.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 12, 2020, 05:18:39 PM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 12, 2020, 04:32:39 PM
Quote from: jagsonville on February 12, 2020, 04:23:56 PM
That's a lot of money to just change signs...
It's a lot more than just changing signs. You've got to repave, re-stripe, install new traffic signals, reconfigure pavement markings on adjacent roadways, AND change signs.
Will probably include at least a minor resurfacing, as it is the easiest way to get rid of existing pavement markings. A minor resurfacing is what the City usually does - only take the very top off the existing pavement (if anything is taken off) and add a thin layer of paving. FDOT typcially does a full "mill and resurface" where they take several inches of paving off, often down to the base, and then replace the pavement; this gets rid of any structural problems in the roadway, instead of just covering them over.
The article doesn't say if the DIA plan is for the full length of Adams and Forsyth - all the way from Myrtle Avenue on the west to Liberty Street on the east. The part of Adams east of Liberty will have to remain one-way, due to the (soon to be truncated) Hart Xway ramp coming down to ground at Liberty.
Wonder if they will ask FDOT to cover the cost of the necessary changes at the intersections with Main Street and Ocean Street? Shouldn't be very expensive, just some signs - the pavement markings will just change on Adams and Forsyth, so the City should cover that.
I need to correct myself. The intersections of Adams/Main, Adams/Ocean, Forsyth/Main, and Forsyth/Ocean will need new traffic signals. An opportunity for 'cost sharing' with FDOT? Also, Forsyth and Adams are part of SR 228 between Main Street and the Hart Ramps. Although, once the Hart ramps by the stadium get Lenny-ized, the State Road designation for some part of the Hart system in the downtown/stadium area will be removed. It is unclear what the limits of the gap will be.
Adams is a great conversion. I would phase in Forsythe though especially in the CBD. It will be an absolute mess for awhile during rush hour if Forsythe and Adams get a full remake.
Not sure what the City has in mind, but when OKC returned all their downtown streets to two-way it cost $140 million. To widen the sidewalks took a lot of utility relocation (can't have a storm drain right in the middle of the sidewalk or plant trees where the electric lines run). I don't know what other cities have spent.
Quote from: Kerry on February 13, 2020, 03:57:01 PM
Not sure what the City has in mind, but when OKC returned all their downtown streets to two-way it cost $140 million. To widen the sidewalks took a lot of utility relocation (can't have a storm drain right in the middle of the sidewalk or plant trees where the electric lines run). I don't know what other cities have spent.
While that number seems high at first glance, I could conceivably see that....especially if there was major work on connecting roadways like interstate ramps, etc. It also sounds like they did some sidewalk work along with it.
I'm curious if the $5M number holds. To me it seems like Forsyth and Adams aren't the most complex of the downtown streets but they have some complexity, namely the ramps at either end of both streets (Hart ramps should go if you're tearing down the rest of the expressway but that's another conversation).
Quote from: Kerry on February 13, 2020, 03:57:01 PM
Not sure what the City has in mind, but when OKC returned all their downtown streets to two-way it cost $140 million. To widen the sidewalks took a lot of utility relocation (can't have a storm drain right in the middle of the sidewalk or plant trees where the electric lines run). I don't know what other cities have spent.
That sounds like a streetscape. I don't believe moving curb and gutter is something that will be extensively done to two-way streets in downtown.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 13, 2020, 05:20:11 PM
Quote from: Kerry on February 13, 2020, 03:57:01 PM
Not sure what the City has in mind, but when OKC returned all their downtown streets to two-way it cost $140 million. To widen the sidewalks took a lot of utility relocation (can't have a storm drain right in the middle of the sidewalk or plant trees where the electric lines run). I don't know what other cities have spent.
That sounds like a streetscape. I don't believe moving curb and gutter is something that will be extensively done to two-way streets in downtown.
It was a complete make-over from building facade to building facade.
For $140 million it would have to be. I think the Jax thing will most likely involve milling and resurfacing, restriping and modifying related signalization. That can be done relatively cheap but won't deliver the same type of benefits as a complete streetscaping project.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 13, 2020, 09:08:07 AM
Also, Forsyth and Adams are part of SR 228 between Main Street and the Hart Ramps. Although, once the Hart ramps by the stadium get Lenny-ized, the State Road designation for some part of the Hart system in the downtown/stadium area will be removed. It is unclear what the limits of the gap will be.
From my understanding, SR 228 west of where MLK Parkway ties into the Hart Bridge, will be transferred to COJ.