Metro Jacksonville

Rankings seem to bring out the passion in everyone, so let's try this one.  What are the top 10 things that would make our DOWN-town a BOOM-town?

I'll throw out a few items to get the creative juices flowing.  Add your comments and suggestions to the list. Maybe the powers that be will followup on some of the ideas and finally make a success out of downtown that we all want to see.

Quote
1) Retail store fronts on the street facing ground levels of all buildings, regardless of use or purpose, and, where possible, along the riverwalks (maybe a themed "Old Florida River Town" village)

2) Educational facilities including four year university campus with residences and research facilites and elementary, middle, and high schools for downtown families

3) Outdoor megasite along the river (Shipyards and/or JEA sites) as our "Central Park
for gathering thousands for events/festivals and hosting ball parks and fields for families with kids living Downtown

4) Commuter rail and streetcars, including family friendly access at the parks and downtown educational schools and higher education facilities

5) High rise residences downtown made more affordable versus urban sprawl 20 miles away by appropriate public policies

6) More pedestrian friendly sidewalks with greater widths, street art, entertainment, greenscapes, and seating and more of same along the riverwalks

7) Emphasis on historic preservation of whats left to create sense of history, unique character, and human connections to buildings

8 ) Unique and world class architecture for new and renovated building projects to make Jax "cool", "hip", cutting edge, interesting, and attractive to both locals and visitors

9) Bigger push for cultural institutions to locate and/or expand presence and/or facilities and/or programs downtown

10) New downtown attractions such as a transportation (rail/air/maritime) museum celebrating Jax's illustrious role in the industry, a Jax Hall of Fame or other celebration of famous Jax residents, a Jax history museum that delves into all aspects of Jax history, from industry to culture to sports to demographics to landscape, etc., a new and bigger MOSH science and history museum for kids, perhaps with an aquarium and/or butterfly and/or aviary addition, etc.

Do all of the above, and all the people, hotels, convention center, restaurants, stores, night-life, pro sports teams, corporate HQ's, and jobs, jobs, jobs will follow.  I guarantee it!

By the way, much of this costs nothing more than making existing and ongoing decisions with downtown in mind.

More important than anything else is to change the zoning code to require pedestrian friendly site/building design for ALL building and development projects in the entire pre-consolidated city (not just downtown).  Its simple and cheap to do and requires no chicken or egg.  If every single project proposed in the urban core (the preconsolidated city) has to be designed to properly address the pedestrian and sidewalks, connectivity will begin to happen naturally.

As for a few things on the list, I would classify as secondary issues (ex. wide sidewalks, new DT attractions, additional open space,etc.) that are better evaluated on a case-by-case basis.  For example, wide sidewalks alone won't do anything (ex. Philip Randolph Blvd.).  However, when combined with something else, they have more impact (ex. The Landing, Riverside Market Square, 3rd & Main, etc.). 

Imo, top focus should be applied to things that help build a community from the ground up by better utilizing our existing assets and promoting connectivity, which in term stimulates the synergy needed for 24/7 vibrancy. (ex. zoning, location of educational facilities, historic preservation, better architecture, better mass transit, etc.).

The only thing I would change is the "outdoor mega-site" option.  IMO, our central park is and should be the springfield parks along Hogan's creek.  Revamp/expand/upgrade what we already have and return it to its glory.

#3, are you joking or smoking crack?

People can't drive here with regular traffic signals, I can't imagine having them on flashing cycle.

reed, it sounds as if he's speaking of at night time. This is a big deal for those of us that drive the area at night. Sitting for 5 minutes at a red light when no one else is around for miles can get pretty aggravating. I definitely agree with the parking meters, more so then ever now. A few weeks ago, my family and I was at the library. We ended up sticking around so my son could join the toddler thing going on. I went outside with a quarter to extend my 15 minutes remaining by adding 30 minutes... well, instead of adding the time, it just started over. We rushed out of there only to be 2 minutes after the 30 minutes expired and already had a ticket. Needless to say, I was pissed..

A REAL $%^#$% CONVENTION CENTER IN THE URBAN CORE AND AN ORGANIZATION TO PUSH THE #$%^#$%@ OUT OF IT SO WE CAN BRING HUGE CONVENTIONS TO IT!!!!!!!!1!1!11ONE!

*phew*

Quote from: stephendare on November 03, 2009, 01:02:23 PM
4.  End the practice of stampeding 60 thousand potential customers out of downtown in 25 minutes after games.

This is so baffling to me :o :o :o

To what degree do they do this (if at all) for FBC on Sundays?  

Why would someone want to open a business downtown when the city is funneling all of their potential customers away?

Quote from: Johnny on November 03, 2009, 01:11:17 PM
reed, it sounds as if he's speaking of at night time.

I'm well aware that it was to be at night. What they need to do is ditch the timing on all of them and go with regular style like everywhere else. Of course, this can't be accomplished until more streets are two way and not meant to flow cars around easily.

I believe #4 was referring to the current practice of converting two directional roads to single lane highways out of downtown after big games. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the thought on that was that by letting a bit more of a traffic jam occur more people might chose to "sit out" traffic and patronize local restaurants, bars, etc.. while they wait for traffic to die down, creating a post-game boon for downtown businesses and not a rush for the Mandarin Applebee's.

25 minutes?

I've had to go to the jail and get a few of my shipmates out when I was in the Navy at 3am and it never took more than 10 to out of downtown.

The only thing they need to do is get rid of the timing sequence and a bit of the problem will be solved. Signal control boxes can be done two ways usually, either a timing sequence along the corridor, which most downtown have, or have the regular fiber optics in the streets controlling the lights.

That said, some streets the flashing will work, but others should be kept on all hours.

Most of DT is as dead as a door nail.  They could probably remove all the stoplights from the less traveled intersections and replace them with four-way stop signs and be just fine.  I haven't seen it done here, but I have noticed other cities have done this in their downtown cores with no ill effect.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2009, 01:51:59 PM
Most of DT is as dead as a door nail.  They could probably remove all the stoplights from the less traveled intersections and replace them with four-way stop signs and be just fine.  I haven't seen it done here, but I have noticed other cities have done this in their downtown cores with no ill effect.

The problem with that is your typical Jacksonville driver forgets how to use a 4 way stop once they get their license. Once you get people who are late for work/aggravated/texting/blabbing on their cellphone it becomes a recipe for disaster.

Quote from: RiversideLoki on November 03, 2009, 01:54:07 PM
The problem with that is your typical Jacksonville driver forgets how to use a 4 way stop once they get their license. Once you get people who are late for work/aggravated/texting/blabbing on their cellphone it becomes a recipe for disaster.

ain't that the truth!

Yes, during the day, sadly, I wouldn't recommend leaving it to the drivers to drive responsibly. At night, they can get away with it. There is rarely someone coming from another direction when you are sitting at a street light.

reed, I've been through downtown and it's taken me 10 minutes before too. Unfortunately, I felt lucky on those days. It's not typical. You will spend 10-15 minutes at street lights more often than not.

Number one -- get some people in office who know how to run a city!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll add another proposal to the list: a casino.

Benefits:
New vibrancy to DT;
Nightly live entertainment;
New funding source with specific earmarks like e.g. education
   thru contractual taxation on earnings;
Major attraction not only for locals but out-of-town tourists;
Jobs, jobs, jobs.
Increase in hotel bookings;
Relatively short schedule to get a casino off the ground

OK, I know ... I can just hear all the naysayers:
Gambling is sinful and will inevitably lead to more debauchery.
To that I say we already have it.
Look at all the casinos that are going out of business.
I say, look at the ones that are doing fine.

We need to start thinking out of the box!

Would there ever be a reasonable chance to have a casino in Jacksonville?

^I think getting the Poker Room to open a location downtown would be a start.

Let's see...

Increase the music scene downtown including a museum to celebrate the musical history
History tours, including churches and what is left of our downtown
* Add a bicycle tour in there with bike lanes
Get creative, things we don't see elsewhere b/c most people don't give a rats ass about our core


I agree about the casino too, that would improve the city overnight as restaurants and shopping would follow.

What would it take to legalize gambling in Jacksonville

IMO casinos should have be connected to a hotel, in urban areas and be waterfront.
Just think of the jobs they would create.

What about the Southern Rock and Roll Hall of Fame! I know we have talked about that before Stephen.

LMAO! Stephen Does FBC have the power to cause the rapture

Quote from: stephendare on November 03, 2009, 04:05:29 PM

Quote from: samiam on November 03, 2009, 03:50:39 PM
What would it take to legalize gambling in Jacksonville

IMO casinos should have be connected to a hotel, in urban areas and be waterfront.
Just think of the jobs they would create.

The Rapture.

Stephen is right.  Could you see a casino across the street from FBC?  ;D

Casinos have never carried in several state-wide ballots and ground zero is right here in Jax.  The irony is most everyone here gets on a plane at least once a year and flies to Mississippi, Las Vegas, Atlantic City, the Bahamas, etc. or runs out on the day-trip casino cruises.  Add the lottery and sports betting and gambling is just as prevalent here as anywhere else.  Talk about carpetbaggers cleaning out the town!  :D

Doesn't matter, we have our "principles" and gambling beyond what we have now is not feasible.

I am uninitiated as other than the occasional lotto card I don't really gamble - I've always heard organized crime was heavily involved with casinos.  Is it truth or urban myth?  (And yes, if FBC can't conjure up a mighty fine Rapture around here, who can??) 

Quote from: samiam on November 03, 2009, 03:50:39 PM
What would it take to legalize gambling in Jacksonville

IMO casinos should have be connected to a hotel, in urban areas and be waterfront.
Just think of the jobs they would create.

You know that there were three dog tracks. The one "down town" closed. The other two still operate and have horse betting and poker rooms.

I was about to start a new topic but figured this rant would fit fine right here:


Subject: Can we get a real comedy club?

One that's not attached to a Ramada Inn?

I know it's silly to post things on MJ such as this when the poster lacks any ability to make it happen, such as the "we need more skyscrapers downtown" comments that you’ll see occasionally on this site (which I totally agree with) but it seems like Jacksonville is ready for something larger that has more character than the comedy zone yet smaller and more casual than the Florida theater. and of course it'd be nice if it were located downtown.

I know there's been several attempts to start up alternatives before but it seems like it's hard to cut into the comedy zone's hold on all things funny in this town. This town could use more laughs :D That's all i'm saying!

+1 For the comedy club idea.  Stand-up comedy, stephen; but someplace for the improv/sketch folks would be good too.

Quote from: stephendare on November 03, 2009, 01:35:54 PM
And reed.  seriously  no one is downtown at night.  It can take you up to 25 minutes to travel 8 block of downtown with no other traffic.

Bull crap....I drive downtown at night all the time....most of the lights are still synchronized at night....and even if they weren't, the entire cycle is only about 1 minute.

Downtown signals are actually at their worst on Sunday...and it has nothing to do with NFL!

Quote from: stephendare on November 03, 2009, 04:30:21 PM
Well its not just FBC.

My pentecostal and charismatic family would be more to worry about on gambling.

If it didn't happen within an hour after Obama won the election, spontaneous rapturing brought on by local church outrage is off my list of things to worry about.

Sell the Southbank JEA property to the Miccosukee Tribe, and NOBODY could stop them or the boom. Theme? Hells Bells, look at OUR history + Theirs+Spain+England+France+Confederacy+Mexico+Green Cross...etc...
Toss in The Southern Fried Music Hall of Fame, A. Phillip Randolph Museum, Negro League Hall of Fame and Museum.

BUILD STREETCAR + Complete some parts of the Skyway.

Jump Back and watch us reach for the stars, there would be no stopping us. Certainly the talk about the CUBS moving to town wouldn't hurt anything either.

As for your 25 minute 8 block drives? You were kidding were you not? Downtown? Jacksonville? Hell I can drive across downtown LA faster then that. In Jacksonville, you could do it on the sidewalks in 5!

TUSFU1, "I'll see your BULL CRAP and raise you two BULL SHITS!"  

OCKLAWAHA

I thought tribes already had to own the land, that it had to be historically tribal land for a casino
to operate.
I do think there are a lot of people currently traveling from south Georgia and the east coast of Florida to Tampa, Fort Lauderdale, Mississippi and beyond to gamble.

To much is being focused on Casinos, Tampa, Miami and many of the cities in the learning from serious dont have casinos in their downtown area. I would focus more on shopping, dinning, entertainment, housing, homeless issues. Aquarium, and entertainment district, arts, museums linked with transit should be a start.

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 03, 2009, 06:53:31 PM
To much is being focused on Casinos, Tampa, Miami and many of the cities in the learning from serious dont have casinos in their downtown area. I would focus more on shopping, dinning, entertainment, housing, homeless issues. Aquarium, and entertainment district, arts, museums linked with transit should be a start.

Keith, interesting thoughts, but it sounds like you haven't played the slots too many times. Years ago, being a part time desert rat, I drove up from my California cabin with the family to Ely, NV. to ride the Nevada Northern Railroad (Well worth the trip BTW). On the way to Yosemite and Monterey, we stopped in Tonopah, and old Silver Mining City. Ate lunch in a big restaurant next to the slots, and my two teens started to howl about striking it rich. I told them FORGET IT, it's a game for fools. By the time we left I was pretty pissed about the constant hounding, so I told them; "Look, I'm going to teach you something with these quarters..." Dropped them in a slot machine, pulled the handle and walked out! About 1/2 way to the car this Casino dude comes running up and says, "Hey mister, MAN you better come back in, and your going to need a sack!"
GREAT LESSON OCK!

I think what your missing is: shopping, dinning, entertainment, housing, Aquariums, entertainment district, arts, and even museums, all come with or WITHIN the Casinos. The Tonopah Casino is small but it's got half a damn ghost town to play in, displays, hands on, cabins, mine tram, gold panning...etc. Vegas, Reno or Tahoe, each have hundreds of these venues. Ever since the days of the old west, when pioneers came west in pin striped suits, and carved a gambling empire out of a wasteland with their sub-thompson machine guns, these places are huge money makers. Consider in JAX, we would cut off the folks headed south, we get them broke before they get into St. Johns County! Besides, if the tribe took title to land that was once theirs anyway, it's going to be freaking impossible to beat them in court. They've got more money then Florida has!

OCKLAWAHA

Ock I do like casinos, been to the one in Tampa 3 times this yr which is not in there downtown. All I am saying is we should focus on things most likely to happen. A casino in Jacksonville,,just dont see that happening.

QuoteA casino in Jacksonville,,just dont see that happening.

JTA would embrace HSR and follow through on the Skyway, before the FBC allowed a casino in Jax.

In St. Louis, the casinos are on the river. They used to have riverboat casinos and they started building the buildings in the water to get around the law... You'd never know you were in the water when you are inside, but from the outside you can tell that only the hotels are on land and the casinos are hanging out on the water. I wonder if something can be done to slip it by the opposition prior to them knowing it's a casino?

^Is that similar to how SunCruz casinos operate?

SunCruz goes 3 miles offshore in International water to operate.

You can sit on Atlantic Beach and see that crappy ass boat sitting out there many days.

Don't know how they do it in St. Louis, but several Mississippi River City's have casinos over the water, one even built like a giant steamboat. I didn't know WHY, but that's an interesting loophole; with the annual flooding I really don't know how they survive. Same thing happens on the Red River in Shreveport, another huge casino, which after it went up... well...it IS THE SKYLINE!

Those who don't think such venues as Casino, Museum, Aquarium - Marineland Jacksonville, or anything else would make it on the JEA site, note when coming into town on I-95, for the last 2-3 minutes of your trip toward the overland bridge, that Casino would rise right straight in front of you. A off ramp and on ramp to 95 South coming from that area, The Southbound lanes would need a Flyover but if they lower the highway, that would be easy. Northbound could be effected by branching off 95 between Emerson and Atlantic, running alongside 95, over Atlantic and down to the new area. A connecting surface street running East - West, could tie into the Hilton and Garage.  

OCKLAWAHA

There's plenty of room downtown for alot of things especially on the North Bank.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2009, 10:27:54 PM
^Is that similar to how SunCruz casinos operate?

Ehh.. sort of. SunCruz operates in "international waters", 3 miles off the coast. As long as the machines aren't operational during the cruise in/out they're fine.

Of course that also means that they also skirt regulation. SunCruz games have some of the worst odds in the casino industry.

Late to this thread, but...

QuoteImo, top focus should be applied to things that help build a community from the ground up by better utilizing our existing assets

QuoteIMO, our central park is and should be the springfield parks along Hogan's creek.

Quote4.  End the practice of stampeding 60 thousand potential customers out of downtown in 25 minutes after games.

Amen, amen, amen!!!!!

In order for Hogan's Creek to be the central park of Jax, we need a few things done first:

1) Tear down Park View Inn and remove debris.
2) Clean up Hogan Creek, remove the ash residue and other nastiness from the creek.
3) Light up the park, add better facilities, and put up fencing around the park to funnel people into main areas.
4) Add security to the area in the form of more police patrols (good place for the horses to patrol).
5) Encourage small business zones for retail spaces close to the park. Right now there is plenty of space for this.
6) Promote it, as the City needs to promote the park for all kinds of events, year round.
7) Possibly expand and provide tennis and other jungle-gym items, such as what Boone Park offers in Avondale.

I love the idea, and these are a few of the many suggestions I am sure others have. I think it would be great to get the old park back and being used.

Quote from: mtraininjax on November 04, 2009, 08:31:20 AM
In order for Hogan's Creek to be the central park of Jax, we need a few things done first:

1) Tear down Park View Inn and remove debris.
2) Clean up Hogan Creek, remove the ash residue and other nastiness from the creek.
3) Light up the park, add better facilities, and put up fencing around the park to funnel people into main areas.
4) Add security to the area in the form of more police patrols (good place for the horses to patrol).
5) Encourage small business zones for retail spaces close to the park. Right now there is plenty of space for this.
6) Promote it, as the City needs to promote the park for all kinds of events, year round.
7) Possibly expand and provide tennis and other jungle-gym items, such as what Boone Park offers in Avondale.

I love the idea, and these are a few of the many suggestions I am sure others have. I think it would be great to get the old park back and being used.

I have said it before, there is no need to limit ourselves to one park.  This isn't a "park site" competition, it's about doing what is right for the long haul for greater downtown.  Having parks in several areas will help all corners of downtown thrive and make the sum of parts even greater.

The Shipyards and JEA sites could serve "downtown residents" living in other areas of town as well as offer a differing set of amenities, the least of which is direct access and viewing of the St. Johns River.  These sites also are shaped and sized differently and may accommodate better such features as playing fields for soccer, football, baseball/softball, etc. as well as outdoor staging, not to mention public access.

We need to keep an open mind and not let the needle get stuck in the groove.

There are not enough resources to take this to all parks. Fix one park downtown, make it a "model" for the others and work to build them. This will take more resources to fix the creek, and who in Springfield would not relish a cleaner Hogan's Creek?

The definition of a boomtown is a town that experiences rapid economic growth. Does anyone really believe that upgrading and renovating a park (or parks) will somehow result in a boom for the city of Jacksonville? Can you just hear the folks in GA, SC, Tampa and SFl, "hey, let's head over to Jax, they have some nice parks with live music, shopping, new lights and everything". Sure, all of that would be nice but ....

Jacksonville has been back of the herd for much too long. C'mon, more shopping, more lights, better parks, more arts, more two-way streets, a museum ... these are all very nice amenities and I am sure they will  bring some long-term results. But none of those improvements will lead to a boom. What we need is some bold thinking on the part of our political leaders and city planners. Get out of the box and come up with ideas that will make this town stand out from the others and that don't take 10 or 15 years to implement.

Just a flight of fantasy, but it might be nice to consider turning some of our many vacant buildings into more free-standing (not megaplex) theatres or playhouses that can also show films so there would be more venues for the Film Festival to expand...more locations to rush to (would lead to more restaurants/coffee houses popping up nearby, in another currently vacant building) to feed the hungry filmgoers,  and yep maybe even a few streetcars would be just the ticket to rush filmgoers to the next movie on their agendas.  When it's not film festival season, rent these buildings out as rehearsal space or for private parties or art exhibits, or even house some workspace for independent filmmakers. Discuss.

Quote from: mtraininjax on November 04, 2009, 08:31:20 AM
In order for Hogan's Creek to be the central park of Jax, we need a few things done first:

1) Tear down Park View Inn and remove debris.
2) Clean up Hogan Creek, remove the ash residue and other nastiness from the creek.
3) Light up the park, add better facilities, and put up fencing around the park to funnel people into main areas.
4) Add security to the area in the form of more police patrols (good place for the horses to patrol).
5) Encourage small business zones for retail spaces close to the park. Right now there is plenty of space for this.
6) Promote it, as the City needs to promote the park for all kinds of events, year round.
7) Possibly expand and provide tennis and other jungle-gym items, such as what Boone Park offers in Avondale.

I love the idea, and these are a few of the many suggestions I am sure others have. I think it would be great to get the old park back and being used.

My favorite idea so far.  This would also drive up land values around here and create opportunities for some nice infill between DT and Springfield.  I'd volunteer for a clean up if that would be in any way helpful.

Quote from: sandyshoes on November 04, 2009, 04:03:26 PM
Just a flight of fantasy, but it might be nice to consider turning some of our many vacant buildings into more free-standing (not megaplex) theatres or playhouses that can also show films so there would be more venues for the Film Festival to expand...more locations to rush to (would lead to more restaurants/coffee houses popping up nearby, in another currently vacant building) to feed the hungry filmgoers,  and yep maybe even a few streetcars would be just the ticket to rush filmgoers to the next movie on their agendas.  When it's not film festival season, rent these buildings out as rehearsal space or for private parties or art exhibits, or even house some workspace for independent filmmakers. Discuss.

Yes, like a combination of LIGHT RAIL/STREETCAR, COMMUTER RAIL, EXPRESS/QUALITY BUS, and a FINISHED SKYWAY. Once we have the only FIXED and COMPREHENSIVE transit system in the South, we won't have to want for anything. But that will take leadership with thought!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Cricket on November 04, 2009, 12:40:18 PM
The definition of a boomtown is a town that experiences rapid economic growth. Does anyone really believe that upgrading and renovating a park (or parks) will somehow result in a boom for the city of Jacksonville?

Cricket, if you read the entire thread you will see that parks were only one of many elements suggested to attract visitors and residents and improve Downtown, not a stand alone improvement.

QuoteJacksonville has been back of the herd for much too long. C'mon, more shopping, more lights, better parks, more arts, more two-way streets, a museum ... these are all very nice amenities and I am sure they will  bring some long-term results. But none of those improvements will lead to a boom. What we need is some bold thinking on the part of our political leaders and city planners. Get out of the box and come up with ideas that will make this town stand out from the others and that don't take 10 or 15 years to implement.

Cricket, again read the thread for lots of ideas.  There is unlikely going to be a single event that creates a "boom" Downtown.  It will take a variety of upgrades working in concert together.  All the amenties you dismiss plus a few others are the investments in what Downtown needs to induce people to want to spend time and live there.  By the way, nearly all the suggestions made could be implemented in 1 to 5 years with others significantly phased in during that time with followup in future years.

You say "get out of the box".  What are your new ideas that we are overlooking?  I didn't see you mention these.  Help us out!

Cricket, love the passion! Why don't we try and fix something that is close to all of our hearts and one that has been a problem for a long, long time, Hogan's creek. You fix the creek, then the whole area will blossom. The creek is sick. We can fix it and then watch the whole area blossom, which will add the shops, theatres, life back to what was the MAJOR park of Jacksonville.

It can happen, all we need to do is believe.

If the belief re: fixed route transit spurring development is true, then the City really needs to do two things:

1.) Put in streetcar line/LRT

2.) Get out of the way

I'm oversimplifying, but isn't that the general idea?

Quote from: stjr on November 05, 2009, 01:10:25 AM

Cricket, again read the thread for lots of ideas.  There is unlikely going to be a single event that creates a "boom" Downtown.  It will take a variety of upgrades working in concert together.  All the amenties you dismiss plus a few others are the investments in what Downtown needs to induce people to want to spend time and live there.  By the way, nearly all the suggestions made could be implemented in 1 to 5 years with others significantly phased in during that time with followup in future years.

stjr, you failed to mention what I said, that "these are all very nice amenities and I am sure they will  bring some long-term results". I especially like the Hogan's Creek idea which could be implemented in a relatively short timeframe but for most of the other dream projects like transit you are talking well beyond your 1 to  5 years. But still all of these improvements to downtown will enhance our standard of living and induce our own locals to spend more time downtown.

But in order to make downtown a boomtown (your word) we have to be able to consistently lure outsiders into the city of Jacksonville for an experience that is different. That is the principal reason people leave their own cities and spend money in other cities.

Quote from: stjr on November 05, 2009, 01:10:25 AMYou say "get out of the box".  What are your new ideas that we are overlooking?  I didn't see you mention these.  Help us out![/b]

Well you can go back and read the thread and disagree with my original out-of-the-box idea all you want - a downtown casino - but I still say it has some merit if you are looking for something different and exciting to jumpstart downtown. Once we get past all the legal hurdles. Not only will it funnel some much needed bucks from outside into our coffers but a downtown casino will be a catalyst for most of the other things on the list.

I've always wondered why no major retailers have taken advantage of the empty spaces downtown. Stores like American Apparel, Urban Outfitters, etc...in other cities these are main staples for urban areas. With riverside, springfield & San Marco...you would think that someone would take advantage of the common ground.  Guess I'm just 40 years late... :-\

I like the idea of tearing down the ParkView Inn, clearing the debris and adding that land to Confederate park, but I would say tear down the fences that are there (except the dog park) and make it accessible to everyone from every side.

Making a well lit walkway of some type like the riverwalk on both sides of the creek from the river into Springfield making it an extension of the riverwalk and a safe way to walk/bike all the way to riverside and the sports complex.

Widening the creek to be large enough to accommodate small boats (like peddle boats, canoes, small motor boats, etc) with places to tie up would bring in boat traffic and parking  for big events downtown and use the river as a tie in to bring life to the neighborhood and the back side of downtown.

Quote from: Omarvelous09 on November 05, 2009, 03:49:52 PM
I've always wondered why no major retailers have taken advantage of the empty spaces downtown. Stores like American Apparel, Urban Outfitters, etc...in other cities these are main staples for urban areas. With riverside, springfield & San Marco...you would think that someone would take advantage of the common ground.  Guess I'm just 40 years late... :-\

To have stores, you need shoppers.  To have shoppers, you need residents and/or visitors.  To have residents, you need amenities that attract them (affordable housing, schools, parks, "everyday stores and services", transit connectivity, etc).  To get tourists, you need residents to visit, attractions, events, public spaces, transit connectivity, etc.

This is as simple as lining up the dominoes  in the right order, and knocking them down.  No magic bullets.  We just need some entity or person to take the lead on making it happen.  It's really not rocket science.  There are inner cities/downtowns all over the world who have solved this problem against far greater odds.  We can too! 

Quote from: GideonGlib on November 05, 2009, 04:03:30 PM
I like the idea of tearing down the ParkView Inn, clearing the debris and adding that land to Confederate park, but I would say tear down the fences that are there (except the dog park) and make it accessible to everyone from every side.

Not me.  That's the busiest corner in Central Jacksonville, traffic wise.  Instead of creating additional park space when there is already plenty next door, the entire area would be better off by it being developed into a pedestrian friendly commercial use (ex. grocery, hotel, retail anchor, mixed-use, etc.).  Designed right, it could benefit from the traffic using State, Union, Main and Ocean, plus provide the park with everyday use.

Quote from: GideonGlib on November 05, 2009, 04:03:30 PM
Widening the creek to be large enough to accommodate small boats (like peddle boats, canoes, small motor boats, etc) with places to tie up would bring in boat traffic and parking for big events downtown and use the river as a tie in to bring life to the neighborhood and the back side of downtown. 

Your singing my song gib. Having slurped my way up this sewer in a canoe, and doing an article on it in MJ, it needs help fast. The thing that struck me most, was the Arlington Expressway, right where it comes down at State and Union. The creek underpass is a tiny box culvert, no way in hell to get through it without a shit-submarine. All along the creek the old historic bridges could be raised maybe 6' feet, and the channel deepened. It appears back in the old days to have either had several ponds along it's course, or to have been much wider. Fresno CA, is the last city I lived in with an active swan boat fleet, and concessions in the park, but it's well worth the effort.

Springfielder's and urbanist's, they are planning to rebuild that roadway in the near future, if we want to address flooding and the parks water courses, now is the time.

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteDoes anyone really believe that upgrading and renovating a park (or parks) will somehow result in a boom for the city of Jacksonville?

Cricket, re: your comments on doing something different, you must be a visionary! ;-) Re: your comment above, when the folks at Project for Public Spaces (pps.org) visited Jax to contribute on the Hogan's Creek Parks master planning project, they indicated that 2 projects they did in Detroit and Houston (Campus Martius and Discovery Green, respectively), which were significantly smaller in terms of acreage, generated more than $1/2B in adjacent economic development combined. Your comment was about short-term, and I'm not sure of the actual timing of completion of these two projects, but my memory wants to spit out 2005-2006 time frame. If that is the timing, then that amount of economic development in that short of a time frame in park space adjacent communities is staggering!

The only project that I can think of to spur immediate development would be a casino, otherwise the improvements are the best option. Increasing quality of life = corporations wanting to be in the area, simple fact. Hogan's Creek is one of the many obstacles in Jacksonville's way so really the city could just pick one and do it. Instead of sitting on their hands waiting for the next elected official to get behind it.

Quote from: zoo on November 05, 2009, 06:40:35 PM

QuoteDoes anyone really believe that upgrading and renovating a park (or parks) will somehow result in a boom for the city of Jacksonville?

Cricket, re: your comments on doing something different, you must be a visionary! ;-) Re: your comment above, when the folks at Project for Public Spaces (pps.org) visited Jax to contribute on the Hogan's Creek Parks master planning project, they indicated that 2 projects they did in Detroit and Houston (Campus Martius and Discovery Green, respectively), which were significantly smaller in terms of acreage, generated more than $1/2B in adjacent economic development combined. Your comment was about short-term, and I'm not sure of the actual timing of completion of these two projects, but my memory wants to spit out 2005-2006 time frame. If that is the timing, then that amount of economic development in that short of a time frame in park space adjacent communities is staggering!

We have covered Campus Martius several times in Metro Jacksonville's past.  It was dedicated in late 2004.  It proves that a "well planned and integrated" public space can spur a decent amount of economic development.  Unfortunately, in Jacksonville, "planning and integrating" public spaces with their surroundings has been an afterthought.  Not to impressed with HDR's early work in the area but PPS has a good reputation and a history of successful projects.  I'm excited to see what they cook up.  However, I'm more interested on how the space will integrate with it's surroundings more so than the design of the park itself.

Anyway, here are a few pics of Campus Martius Park in Detroit.  Its one of my favorite spaces in that city.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/mainst_park/site_plan.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594987589_RuYB6-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594988720_uPcgq-M.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/mainst_park/Detroit_Camp_Martius_Umbrel.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/CampusMartiusPark.jpg)

There are ten impaired (sedimentation,trash load impacts etc etc) Duval county waterways identified for restoration through joint City/Corps of enginners effort.Only one has been completed,a downtown waterway that saw prominence in action due to Super Bowl and downtown initiative.
Number two on the list is  Fishweir Creek- chomp on a burger at the Avondale Loop at lower tides and the sedimentation is evident- stemming from decades old impacts....and the efforts at restoration subject to decades old fits and starts,funding delays.Perhaps a major announcement soon.(Our own Michael Hollingsworth,former great first RiverKeeper and now with COE as project lead is great source of information)

And it all takes so much time.

If downtown and our waterways not viable,then WHEN??

I am in my early 50,s and have watched and worked on this for decades.I don't think I want to wait around for-ever.If not by now,why not??

The poll that never could be produced:
Downtown is entrenched because of the 'edge city' effect,a spirit of expansionist development that was sure to leave the 'inner" behind.....and simply too many black people.

Click & 'delete' and let the endless posts roll ......................

QuoteOnly one has been completed,a downtown waterway that saw prominence in action due to Super Bowl and downtown initiative.

Which waterway was this?

Observation:  Compare some of the building architecture in the Detroit pix posted by Ock and to Jax buildings.  Architecture can go a long way in creating and inspiring vitality and development in a City.  We need to place more importance on demand unique designs.  Not simple glass covered or fortress style boxes. 

stjr, I'm not sure by how you worded it if you are saying the buildings in the photos are nice or not, but if so I have to disagree. In fact, when Lake posted them, I instantly thought those are some ugly buildings... The building in front of the green-way looks okay, but the rest of them look pretty depressing. In the view of all the buildings, the dark buildings look like a burned out elevator shaft and the rest look like either broken legos or crab traps (minus the 2 historic looking ones in the background). I would hope Jax strives for something much more impressive than those, I do agree with your point, just not the buildings in those pictures (if that is what you were getting at). ;)

I think he was referring to style(architeture) unique is the key word I would think. Atleast those buildings you mention have unique designs. Downtown Jax is mostly a collection of glass boxes. IMO Jax is really only pretty at night and the bridges have alot to do with that.

Zoo- you ask which waterway has recently received 'restoration' attention.

(Again,Michael Hollingsworth/Jac Corps of Engineers can provide details.)

Ten waterways on the list.The first,core downtown waterway, 'completed'.
Those of us interested in finally getting to #2 are under the impression that #1 was fast tracked for Super Bowl/Downtown.Millions of dollars

I am sorry to say I can't recall the name of  completed #1- my overflowing files not handy as i bang these words out.
Nearer towards the Stadium- not the waterway that runs from the river,under Florida Times Union and arches over towards I-95, but rather the waterway to the east/northeast.

Accounts here in MJ posts that this 'restored' waterway remains nasty could be a real relevation if in fact correct observation.

That would be Hogans Creek but I don't remember them touching it.

Thank you Lakelander;Hogans Creek

The recent past restoration efforts,or reference to and potential for is probably worth follow up.Mike Hollingsworth/COE and City Public works.

From my files (I need to learn how to scan to MJ format)
April 26,2004
Letter from Richard E.Bonner,P.E.,Deputy District Engineer;Corps of Engineers, to Mr.Lynn A. Westbrook,P.E.,Director of Public Works,City of Jacksonville

Highlights of the letter-

"We regret to inform you that the Federal funds for the Army's Section 206 of the Water Resorces Development Act have been exhausted and work on your projects,Hogan's Creek and Big Fishweir Creek,have been suspended"

"Ms.Doris Marlin is the project manager and can be reached at (904) 232-1040.Ms.Marlin will be contacting your office when sufficient funds become avaialable and we can resume work on your project"

(Again,fascinating to me that all of this is "lost")

See my post above;Hogans Creek efforts/funding

Note COE letter reference to Fishweir Creek,# 2 on 'the list' following Hogan's Creek.We are proceeding on Fishweir,under the impression that #1 has been addressed.....................

QuoteNot me.  That's the busiest corner in Central Jacksonville, traffic wise.  Instead of creating additional park space when there is already plenty next door, the entire area would be better off by it being developed into a pedestrian friendly commercial use (ex. grocery, hotel, retail anchor, mixed-use, etc.).  Designed right, it could benefit from the traffic using State, Union, Main and Ocean, plus provide the park with everyday use.

That is a GREAT IDEA to build a groc where the former Park View was located, a mini publix, sure, with mixed use next to it, small parking lot, could close Ocean and extend the commercial space east of the PVI. That whole corner would fit nicely with a connection to the park and creek.

JEA really should open up access to the old Water Works for a park and visitation.

I think Casinos could make Jax a regional destination/hot spot.  I understand the obvious problems that come with it but with more police around the casinos I think you eliminate a lof of the riff raf.  Las Vegas  clearly has figured out a way to keep the scum from overrunning the city.  There is an opening in the Southeast to be the region's Las Vegas.  Not to say anyone can be Las Vegas but if Jax could become a nicer/cleaner version of AC while not devoting the entire town's resources to only gambling I think it could transform the town.  If a "strip" is not politicially and practicality wise viable, how about riverboat gambling along the St. John's?  They could go from the Landing and drift along the river.  This would be the alternative for adults who don't want to do Orlando theme parks, think Miami is too far or don't like the scene and live anywhere from Daytona to  as far north as Atlanta and even Charlotte.  You'd get east coast 95 traffic for stop ins on road trips, the potential is huge.  The key to me is somehow keeping it 'upscale'.  You want the scene to be classy and shiek so that you don't risk becoming AC.  And keep the zoning on a smaller scale so that it doesn't dominate the entire town or again just keeping it on the water by way of riverboats.  It's somewhat risky but if we're talking about going BOOM TOWN, timid and safe aint gonna do it.

Casinos in Jax is not happening as long as the sun rises and sets. Lets look else where!!!

Quote from: Johnny on November 06, 2009, 02:34:34 AM
I do agree with your point, just not the buildings in those pictures (if that is what you were getting at). ;)

I was referring to the the Ernst & Young building with the green/white sides, angled roof, and curving base, and the butterfly building facing the green (see picture below).  I am not saying for my money these are my tastes, but at least they are unique, grab your attention, make you think about them plus or minus, and inspire comment (witness our conversation here).  In other words, they engage you.  I rarely see that amongst most of our simply boxed and glass skinned Jax buildings.

Detroit has an added disadvantage in that they just don't get to enjoy the brightness or frequency of all that sunshine we get here.  With the exception of one of the pix posted, it looks like all of these were shadowy days.  Our natural asset would only spotlight great architecture even more.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/594988720_uPcgq-M.jpg)

Imagine that pic here in the Prime Osborne courtyard, or the old court house site along the river front. IMO everything has been laid at the feet of our leaders. We just need the vision and of course money to do it.

Quote from: mtraininjax on November 06, 2009, 09:02:15 AM

QuoteNot me.  That's the busiest corner in Central Jacksonville, traffic wise.  Instead of creating additional park space when there is already plenty next door, the entire area would be better off by it being developed into a pedestrian friendly commercial use (ex. grocery, hotel, retail anchor, mixed-use, etc.).  Designed right, it could benefit from the traffic using State, Union, Main and Ocean, plus provide the park with everyday use.

That is a GREAT IDEA to build a groc where the former Park View was located, a mini publix, sure, with mixed use next to it, small parking lot, could close Ocean and extend the commercial space east of the PVI. That whole corner would fit nicely with a connection to the park and creek. 

JEA really should open up access to the old Water Works for a park and visitation.

I like this idea, even more if Parking were limited, and BEHIND the buildings, so the retail frontage would face the streets, with a improved landscaped sidewalk. Maybe even get stjr and I to engineer a Skyway station in the produce aisle, between the Granny Smiths and Courtlands! Okay, just kidding on that part, the rest is cool though!

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 06, 2009, 07:48:23 PM
Imagine that pic here in the Prime Osborne courtyard, or the old court house site along the river front. IMO everything has been laid at the feet of our leaders. We just need the vision and of course money to do it.

PLEASE! Nothing at the so-called Prime Osbourne, aka: Jacksonville Terminal or Jacksonville Union Terminal, but transportation and sundry shopping, food, and courtyards.

OCKLAWAHA

That's what I am saying.

Lakelander, MONCRIEF CREEK is perhaps the most abused waterway in the city, as you and I witnessed even raw sewage. Over many years it was the dumping grounds for every chemical plant and papermill in town. Riverkeeper says: 52. Moncrief Creek Nutr., Iron, Copper, Lead, Fecal (2004) WAY worse then Hogan.

Greenfield, another one we've been to doesn't show more the disolved oxygen DO, but WE know it's way worse then that. In fact so full of trash it's almost a solid, this creek could burn down!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 06, 2009, 09:55:20 PM
That's what I am saying.

Great Keith, I really was wondering if you were thinking of moving something around. The only thing that needs to be moved or uh, REmoved, is 80% of the exhibit hall, south of the newer PO concourse which runs East-West. The concourse itself could tie a JTA bus terminal/office space into the railroad station headhouse. The 20% of the former hall south of the concourse, would be refinished into an intercity motor coach terminal, hopefully with forethought enough to bring in, La Cubana http://www.lacubanabus.com/direct.html, and hopefully attracting Southeastern Stages http://www.southeasternstages.com/sesschedule.html Which could help balance our market since a huge hole appeared when National and Tamiami Trailways sold out. Otherwise, it's Greyhound all the way.

The courtyard is actually the "interior" of our 1890's Union Station, at least whats left of it after it was leased out for highly inflammable paint and chemical storage, and left unattended for homeless campfires. In the plan I worked up to reorganize JTA's building designs, Lakelander came up with a sweet plan for that space, much as you envision.  

OCKLAWAHA

Yeah I was referring to a pic Lake put out on the Osborne court yard. I think we need another big place to gather besides the Landing's courtyard.

QuoteSCHAUMBURG, IL â€" December 5, 2008 â€" Known for its vibrant, multicolored coaches, La Cubana Bus Lines in Miami has added five new coaches to its modern, all-MCI fleet. The five new 2009 MCI J4500 models are equipped with the latest updates in safety and performance features including wide-ride suspension and Electronic Stability Control. Inside, there is plush seating by Amaya for 51 passengers, a driver bunk and a state-of-the-art Blaupunkt entertainment system with flat-screen video monitors. The new coaches are powered by a Caterpillar engine and Allison Transmission clean-diesel powertrain combination.

Like all the coaches in La Cubana's fleet, the new J4500s' exteriors display a strikingly distinct rainbow designed exclusively for the company. Beneath the bold graphic, each coach is painted a different color to help customers identify individual coaches. A strong believer in new equipment, La Cubana constantly updates its 11-coach MCI J4500 fleet.

Celebrating its 30th anniversary, La Cubana was founded in 1978 by Jose Raul Espinosa. Today, the company is led by Espinosa's daughter, Rosa Alvarez, vice president, who has made La Cubana a premier operator in South Florida. Dedicated to serving the Hispanic market, La Cubana offers daily service between Miami and New York City, with stops in between, as well as weekly service from Miami to Atlanta.

RE:  Casinos

Ever been to Atlantic City?  The casinos have no real connection to the city, they are just grafted on along the boardwalk and the rest of the place is little better than a ghetto.  It would take some careful planning (something Jacksonville isn't particularly good at) to ensure the same thing didn't happen downtown.

There was a Harrah's as I recall in New Orleans.  I didn't even know it was there until we walked by it.  Not much of a gambler, but there was so much to see and do in New Orleans that was unique to the city we decided not to waste time in "just another casino".  Almost every state now has live gambling in some form it seems.  It's really not all that special anymore.  I guess if you're an addict but who wants to attract that problem. 

I am trying to think of any major American City other than Las Vegas that depends on casinos to make their downtowns boom and none come to mind.  Anyone have a case study to present?

Biloxi, Morango Nation - Banning, CA., Vicksburg, Shreveport, Reno, Lake Tahoe, + just about every indian nation in Oklahoma.

OCKLAWAHA  

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 06, 2009, 11:50:41 PM
Biloxi, Morango Nation - Banning, CA., Vicksburg, Shreveport, Reno, Lake Tahoe, + just about every indian nation in Oklahoma.

Ock, those are major cities?  Boy, you put Jax in great company  ;)

You could open a Waffle House in those towns and create a boom.  Maybe that's what we need to ignite Downtown.

Here is an idea, born of late night postings:  How about creating a structure or monument so unique it becomes the City's 'world famous" signature.  So awesome, that anyone visiting can't say they came to Jax without paying a visit to the site and taking a picture by it.  A must see for anyone coming near or to Downtown Jax.  Something that just a picture of it says Jacksonville, Florida.

Like the St. Louis Arch, the Seattle Space Needle, the St. Pete Pier, Disney's Cinderella Castle or Epcot Globe, Paris's the Eiffel Tower, New York's Statue of Liberty, London's Big Ben, the Washington Monument, San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge,  Philadelphia's Independence Hall/Liberty Bell, Stone Mountain, Mount Rushmore, Hollywood's sign, etc.

We could  have an international design competition for a structure/monument of such size that it could be visible throughout the Downtown area and from I-95/I-10.  With an observation deck atop it for special views.  Maybe a restaurant.  Like the examples, it must have some interaction with its visitors.

Here's some throw away concepts just to get the conversation going:  A "Sun Spire", "Sun Spiral", or "Fire Spire" (paying homage both to the fire of our native sun and the Jax Fire).  It could be the world's largest prism/mirror/solar collector or at least a variation on the theme.  At night it could create its own light through fire.  How about a sculpted high rise triangular structure with water features and a blue hue that is called "Water Wing", a representation of our water everywhere, the presence of flight in Jax (aviation history, the Navy fliers, flying wildlife, etc.), the triangular shape of Ft. Caroline by the water.  Or, a giant modernistically designed hour glass structure that actually flips over (maybe with people inside for the ride!), filled with fine Florida sand, representing our sandy shores.  Or a computerized perpetual motion sculpture that mesmerizes its viewers with never-to-repeat configurations on a grand scale, to represent a City always at work and play, but never fully at rest.  Or a special architecturally significant bridge (perhaps designed to carry street cars, bicyclists, and pedestrians) that represents the importance of bridges to Jax, a bridge from the past to the future, a bridge from the North Bank to the South Bank.

No doubt, there would be no end to possible ideas for a commission of citizens to chose from.  Upon selection, depending on the type of structure, funds from the private and/or public sectors would be sought to build it.  But once built, Jax would have a rallying point for its citizens to share in common - a part of all our identities.  When we tell others we are from Jacksonville, such an image will immediately come to the forefront of their minds.[/b]

The Main street Bridge got alot of attention during the SB. Of course with the new lights and video screen it was in a class by itself. People from out of town seem to not be able to keep their eyes off it. The lights remain, but no video board so the effect is not the same. Ideas like a skyway cafe, larger statue of Andrew Jackson have been floated around(stjr I know you hate the skyway), but imagine something like the space needle with elevator cars that resemble the skyway cars.

Quote from: stjr on November 06, 2009, 11:17:37 PM

I am trying to think of any major American City other than Las Vegas that depends on casinos to make their downtowns boom and none come to mind.  Anyone have a case study to present?

Here ya go:


http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/gambling-news/casino-gambling/west_virginia_tourism_thriving_thanks_to_casino_gambling_54525.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/crossingamerica/5731368/Down-the-Mississippi-Iowa-casinos-thriving-as-recession-boosts-staycations.html
http://www.missouricasinos.org/analysis.cfm
http://casinoassociationofnewjersey.org/News/Casino_Connection_1007.html

Cricket, thanks for posting your links.

I looked at each.  Two of the links are industry sites so you know they are going to be rosy.  More importantly, they mostly focused on the business INSIDE the casinos and the TAX REVENUE they pay to government.  Also, I didn't see any reference to major cities.  What I was looking for were casinos that could be credited with revitalizing a major urban area.

And, the quote below in the second article from a casino manger was most telling about how these casinos could actually further DEPRESS surrounding businesses:

QuotePeople always want to have a good time, blow off steam, relax and get away after work and that’s what we offer. We don’t compete necessarily with other gaming destinations but with places where people go out to dine or to the movies.

I think this October 30th Wall Street Journal article about Detroit casinos may provide a more relevant take on the ups and downs of having urban casinos.

Once again, it seems the main benefits are TAX REVENUE and INSIDE the casino.  I don't see any references to a revitalization of, or major spin off benefits to, downtown Detroit. In fact, the hotels don't seem to be benefiting at all.  If Detroit was doing better overall, one has to wonder if the casinos would even be a significant factor worth discussing.

Quote....Opponents say the casinos make hard times harder for families strapped for cash. But proponents note that the three casinos, which employ about 8,200 people, are one of the few sources of new jobs and have helped to increase tourism, convention business and city revenue.

Charles Beckham, chief administrative officer for Detroit, acknowledges that patrons are often the ones who can least afford to lose money."I'm amazed that with the unemployment rate we still have people going to casinos," he said.

But casino revenue provides critical financial support to Detroit. Last fiscal year, it provided the city $189 million, the second largest source of revenue after support from the state. The facilities have also agreed to do their best to hire more than half their workers from among Detroit residents. "We're better off with them than without them," Mr. Beckman said.

Late Tuesday afternoon, 20 card tables at Detroit's Motor City Casino Hotel were packed with poker and Texas hold ' em players. At least 50 more gamblers crowded around a roulette table. Richard Knoll, a retired truck driver, said he was at Motor City because of the casino's giveaway of 20 cars in 20 days. He used to be a regular in Las Vegas and Atlantic City, he said, but now he sticks to Detroit and occasionally visits Atlantic City.

Destination resorts like Las Vegas and Atlantic City have been particularly hard hit because gamers, tourists and conventioneers aren't traveling as much. The dire conditions have led to some high-profile bankruptcies. Last week, MGM Mirage announced it was taking a $955 million write-down on its $8.5 billion City Center project scheduled to open by year-end.

Detroit's casinos are faring better partly because they don't rely as heavily on out-of-town visitors. MGM's Lorenzo Creighton said most patrons come from within 50 miles of the casino. To retain market share, the casino has created a new ad campaign targeting the urban market, showing, for example, a husband and wife at a grocery store deciding to go to the MGM Grand.

The down side of this local focus is that it's hard for Detroit's casinos to fill the hotel rooms they were required to develop as part of their licenses. MGM Grand, for example, has just a 40% occupancy rate. But most of the casinos' revenue comes from gaming so the impact from the low occupancy is limited.

Despite their relatively good performance, Detroit casinos haven't avoided financial problems. Greektown was forced to seek bankruptcy protection in the spring of 2008, partly because of delays in constructing its permanent facility. But its profit was up 38% in September over the same period in 2008 and, according to Mr. Fine, it's on track to come out by year-end.

Detroit's casinos may face more competition soon. In November, Ohio voters will vote on whether to allow casinos in the Buckeye State. Similar measures have been defeated four times in the past 19 years. But supporters hope the state's rising unemployment rate will sway voters.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704224004574487800279559762.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on November 07, 2009, 01:29:16 AM
The Main street Bridge got alot of attention during the SB. Of course with the new lights and video screen it was in a class by itself. People from out of town seem to not be able to keep their eyes off it. The lights remain, but no video board so the effect is not the same.

What I don't understand is why, if we enhance the Main Street bridge for a million dollars as we did, we don't maintain it.  It seems our community fails to appreciate that construction costs are just the tip of the iceburg.  Operational costs have to be considered as well. (See the $ky-high-way.  We paid little locally to build it but, boy, are we paying through the nose to keep it "running".)

If the bridge (along with the other bridge lightings at a million each) was meant to attract people downtown, then paying to maintain it should be a good return on investment.  If we don't do the maintenance, then we are admitting that the initial project was a failure, IMHO.  Which is it going to be?

With regard to casinos, It seems to me that the fight which would undoubtedly ensue, would bring more infighting, litigation and outright division in our community, it hardly seems worth a questionable finacial benefit.

Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 01:01:53 AM
Here's some throw away concepts just to get the conversation going:  A "Sun Spire", "Sun Spiral", or "Fire Spire" (paying homage both to the fire of our native sun and the Jax Fire).  It could be the world's largest prism/mirror/solar collector or at least a variation on the theme.  At night it could create its own light through fire.  How about a sculpted high rise triangular structure with water features and a blue hue that is called "Water Wing", a representation of our water everywhere, the presence of flight in Jax (aviation history, the Navy fliers, flying wildlife, etc.), the triangular shape of Ft. Caroline by the water.  Or, a giant modernistically designed hour glass structure that actually flips over (maybe with people inside for the ride!), filled with fine Florida sand, representing our sandy shores.  Or a computerized perpetual motion sculpture that mesmerizes its viewers with never-to-repeat configurations on a grand scale, to represent a City always at work and play, but never fully at rest.  Or a special architecturally significant bridge (perhaps designed to carry street cars, bicyclists, and pedestrians) that represents the importance of bridges to Jax, a bridge from the past to the future, a bridge from the North Bank to the South Bank.

How about the worlds first completed urban monorail system, with 21st century design elements, interfaced with streetcars from the 1920's era? Make sure both systems spend at least an overpass, or a few blocks along I-95 and/or I-10, which would WOW every Yankee on the super slab.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 07, 2009, 01:08:51 PM
How about the worlds first completed urban monorail system, with 21st century design elements, interfaced with streetcars from the 1920's era? Make sure both systems spend at least an overpass, or a few blocks along I-95 and/or I-10, which would WOW every Yankee on the super slab.

Ock, I was looking for a "more positive" symbol than the "monster" $ky-high-way in disguise (Hey, Halloween was last week!)  :D

However, since we are in the "imagineering" stage of the game, all suggestions are welcome.  How about another suggestion, this time without rails under it. (Although, I was just thinking, if we had version of the old Mandarin or zoo kids' train running through a downtown park, that would be pretty neat.)

Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 12:27:25 PM
Cricket, thanks for posting your links.

I looked at each.  Two of the links are industry sites so you know they are going to be rosy.  More importantly, they mostly focused on the business INSIDE the casinos and the TAX REVENUE they pay to government.  Also, I didn't see any reference to major cities.  What I was looking for were casinos that could be credited with revitalizing a major urban area.

stjr, let's be fair. No one is suggesting that an urban casino would by itself transform our downtown into a boomtown anymore than an upgraded Hogan's Creek would singlehandedly. It is just one contribution to the list of all the other ideas for revitalising the city. I refer you to your own quote:

QuoteThere is unlikely going to be a single event that creates a "boom" Downtown.

I suggest, however, that the difference between the casino idea and all the others is that (1) it is undeniably a tax revenue generator for any city, and (2) it would help to make downtown a regional/destination town instead of the drive-thru town that it is today.

Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 12:37:04 PM
I think this October 30th Wall Street Journal article about Detroit casinos may provide a more relevant take on the ups and downs of having urban casinos.

I also read that article.

It is interesting that you would point conveniently to Detroit which, in economic terms, is one of the most dire landscapes in all of America today, for reasons that we are all familiar with. The reality though is that most  urban casinos (not to be confused with gambling complexes like Vegas) while not immune to today's economic downturn, is nevertheless weathering the downturn much better than many other businesses. But downtown Detroit today might need a whole lot more of a transfusion than casinos can provide.

Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 01:01:53 AM
Here is an idea, born of late night postings:  How about creating a structure or monument so unique it becomes the City's 'world famous" signature.  So awesome, that anyone visiting can't say they came to Jax without paying a visit to the site and taking a picture by it.  A must see for anyone coming near or to Downtown Jax.  Something that just a picture of it says Jacksonville, Florida.

Like the St. Louis Arch, the Seattle Space Needle, the St. Pete Pier, Disney's Cinderella Castle or Epcot Globe, Paris's the Eiffel Tower, New York's Statue of Liberty, London's Big Ben, the Washington Monument, San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge,  Philadelphia's Independence Hall/Liberty Bell, Stone Mountain, Mount Rushmore, Hollywood's sign, etc.

We could  have an international design competition for a structure/monument of such size that it could be visible throughout the Downtown area and from I-95/I-10.  With an observation deck atop it for special views.  Maybe a restaurant.  Like the examples, it must have some interaction with its visitors.

Here's some throw away concepts just to get the conversation going:  A "Sun Spire", "Sun Spiral", or "Fire Spire" (paying homage both to the fire of our native sun and the Jax Fire).  It could be the world's largest prism/mirror/solar collector or at least a variation on the theme.  At night it could create its own light through fire.  How about a sculpted high rise triangular structure with water features and a blue hue that is called "Water Wing", a representation of our water everywhere, the presence of flight in Jax (aviation history, the Navy fliers, flying wildlife, etc.), the triangular shape of Ft. Caroline by the water.  Or, a giant modernistically designed hour glass structure that actually flips over (maybe with people inside for the ride!), filled with fine Florida sand, representing our sandy shores.  Or a computerized perpetual motion sculpture that mesmerizes its viewers with never-to-repeat configurations on a grand scale, to represent a City always at work and play, but never fully at rest.  Or a special architecturally significant bridge (perhaps designed to carry street cars, bicyclists, and pedestrians) that represents the importance of bridges to Jax, a bridge from the past to the future, a bridge from the North Bank to the South Bank.

No doubt, there would be no end to possible ideas for a commission of citizens to chose from.  Upon selection, depending on the type of structure, funds from the private and/or public sectors would be sought to build it.  But once built, Jax would have a rallying point for its citizens to share in common - a part of all our identities.  When we tell others we are from Jacksonville, such an image will immediately come to the forefront of their minds.[/b]

I think it's Kansas City that's pretty famous for having tons of fountains everywhere. I've never been there, but from what I've read they're in almost every developers plans in the city. Only Rome and a couple other European cities have more.

Maybe our draw could be something in that vein where it isn't necessarily this big flashy monument but a common feature throughout the city that lends us a unique identity. I think it'd really cool to be the city of statues. Maybe offer a small one-time tax break to developers and businesses who include statues that are prominently displayed in their design plans. That might actually encourage a growing community of artists if preference were given to works of local sculptors which in turn feeds this identity. It could also encourage pedestrian traffic. We could offer city walking tours of these public art pieces and maybe special events geared towards them. Just an idea.

Richmond has Monument Avenue:

QuoteMonument Avenue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Monument Avenue, in Richmond, Virginia, memorializes Virginian native Confederate participants of the Civil War as well as Arthur Ashe, an international tennis star and Richmond native. "Monument Avenue Historic District" is listed on the National Register of Historic Places. On May 29, 1890, crowds were estimated at 100,000 to view the unveiling of the first monument, to Robert E. Lee. [3]

Monument Avenue is the site of several annual events, particularly in the spring, including the Ukrop's Monument Avenue 10K race [4]. At various times (such as Robert E. Lee's birthday and Confederate History Month) the Sons of Confederate Veterans gather along Monument Avenue in period military costumes. Monument Avenue is also the site of "Easter on Parade," [5] another spring tradition during which many Richmonders stroll the avenue wearing Easter bonnets and other finery or silly outfits.

In 2007, the American Planning Association named Monument Avenue one of the 10 Great Streets in the country.[6] The APA said Monument Avenue was selected for its historic architecture, urban form, quality residential and religious architecture, diversity of land uses, public art and integration of multiple multiple modes of transportation.[7]

Monuments on Monument Avenue

    * Robert E. Lee â€" equestrian sculpture by Antonin Mercié; unveiled May 29, 1890
    * J.E.B. Stuart â€" equestrian sculpture by Frederick Moynihan; unveiled May 30, 1907
    * Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America â€" sculpted by Edward Valentine; unveiled June 3, 1907
    * Stonewall Jackson â€" equestrian sculpture by Frederick William Sievers; unveiled October 11, 1919
    * Matthew Fontaine Maury, oceanographer â€" sculpted by Frederick William Sievers; unveiled November 11, 1929
    * Arthur Ashe, tennis player â€" sculpted by Paul Di Pasquale; unveiled July 10, 1996

Some great comments and ideas.  Thanks and keep them coming.

Maybe Stephen, Ock, and Lake could make a digest of this thread and present it to City leaders who seem to be lacking in the creativity and inspiration department.  All those Chamber trips and not one idea executed along the lines of these.

And, just think of all the consulting dollars the City would have to spend for ideas not half as good as some of these.  ;D

Quote from: stephendare on November 07, 2009, 06:58:33 PM
Maybe we should get a comprehensive list ?

Stephen, here is the title:  "The MetroJax Citizen Manifesto for Improving Jacksonville, a compendium of citizen generated ideas for making Jacksonville a world class city! "

The companion volume could be: The MetroJax Citizen History of Jacksonville, a compendium of citizen provided historical accounts, facts, resources, and assorted trivia about the history of Jacksonville.

Any title with "manifesto" in it, is catchy.

Quote from: sheclown on November 07, 2009, 09:50:57 PM
Any title with "manifesto" in it, is catchy.

Some would say it's communistic!  :D

Is there enough available space in LaVilla for the Jacksonville Kennel Club to be relocated there from McDuff?

^
Considering they didn't run dogs there anymore and it was basically OTB, One would think so.

EDIT: Although they do still have the actual kennel facilities there still, right?  Is that what you meant?
I'd think it more feasible to move the dogs out to OP, and just open up OTB and poker room downtown.

I am adding my post commenting on ideas discussed on this thread from the recent Chicago MJ article.  The cross reference link is: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6716.new.html#new

Quote from: stjr on November 11, 2009, 12:25:06 AM

QuoteLincoln Park is a 1,200 acre (4.9 km², 1.875 mi²) park along Chicago, Illinois' lakefront facing Lake Michigan.

The park stretches from North Avenue (1600 N) on the south to Foster (5200 N), just north of the Lake Shore Drive terminus at North Hollywood Avenue. It is Chicago's largest public park. Its recreational facilities include 15 baseball areas, 6 basketball courts, 2 softball courts, 35 tennis courts, 163 volley ball courts, field houses, and a golf course. It includes a number of harbours with boating facilities, as well as public beaches. There are landscaped gardens, a zoo, the Lincoln Park Conservatory, the Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum, and a theater on the lake with regular outdoor performances during the summer.

The above is exactly why we need to take the Shipyards AND the JEA sites and make them public spaces.  People living in urban areas, especially with kids, need these amenities in the urban environment!

Chicago looks clean, neat, uncluttered, well maintained, and green in nearly all these shots across many neighborhoods.  I don't think much of Jax looks this nice along our streets.  Also, every building just about has a street friendly ground level facade featuring either retail or residential uses.  And, the old buildings are well preserve and favorably mixed with interesting and varying  styles of new architecture.  Nothing boring or repetitious here.  Interesting, too, that none of the streets seemed to be over run with too many cars, especially in light of the population density.  Where is the traffic?  On the rails?  ;)

Jax, are we listening and looking?? ???

STJR- ypour reference to Chicago's Lincoln Park as it could relate to the ShipYards & JEA is most helpful.

A native Miamian,I did spend early childhood summers on the Chicago waterfront.I returned a couple of years ago for a visit and was so pleased.
Every time I make such ventures I return to Florida perplexed over the demise of my native North Miami and sputtering Jacksonville.

Where are we as far as any vision status for the ShipYards and JEA??
Is the ShipYard property in default??What actions is the city taking or not taking??

How about perhaps making more hotels in downtown Jacksonville? If you could connect one to a casino, look at all the money you could make.

People don't know that Jacksonville is the major city for most people in South Georgia (all the way to Savannah), all of Northern Florida, and even SC, all the way to Hilton Head. Even up here in SC, people travel all the way to Tunica to gamble, as companies charter flights from Charleston over to the Tunica airport.

I know this is not downtown, but try and get some new events in the arena. Try to pick up a ECHL hockey team (like you had before). That would be a big deal, as you've got teams in Charleston and Fort Myers, plus Gwinnett, to make rivalries.

Maybe have a MLB exhibition (between spring training and the regular season) in Municipal Stadium. Jacksonville, being a Marlins affiliate, could have a game against maybe the Red Sox or Yankees, and you could draw 60-70,000 people. I know it's not set up for baseball, but you could find a way, and it would show a message that Jacksonville is a major-league city.

I've been through and to Jacksonville many times, and it is a beautiful city. They need to take advantage of it.

Another great example below from Dayton, Ohio, of why we need riverfront megasites at JEA and the Shipyards.  Who says Jax can't attract big crowds for events.  If lil' ol' Dayton can attract crowds of 50,000 and more to the Miami River, a mere ditch compared to the St. Johns, we can easily do 100,000 plus.  But, for now, where to put them?!

Quote...Through surveys and meetings, the DDP quickly learned that the public thought the best way to bring people downtown was to enhance the river’s edge. MetroParks, which had hired Belgian landscape designer Francois Goffinet, learned that Van Cleve Park had the potential to provide a beautiful and exciting downtown park. With these two goals in mind, MetroParks and the DDP partnered with The Miami Conservancy District in 1997 to develop a master plan to reconnect downtown to the river and begin downtown revitalization.

RiverScape Partnership

These three organizations were soon joined by Montgomery County, the City of Dayton and the Miami Valley Regional Transit Authority (RTA) to establish the RiverScape partnership. Over $30 million was raised to fund the construction â€"over a third from private individuals and companies in a campaign led by David Holmes of Reynolds & Reynolds. Over the next four years, ten consultants and well over a dozen contractors worked to turn the vision into bricks and mortar, flowers and fountains. On May 19, 2001, the park opened to a crowd of 50,000, the largest crowd ever to gather in downtown Dayton. Crowds continued to grow at special events throughout the summer, but even on a Tuesday afternoon or a Sunday evening, the park bustled with hundreds of people from throughout the Miami Valley. Dayton had returned to the river.

Metrojax Article: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-elements-of-urbanism-dayton

I have a few images of RiverScape in the Dayton article that ran the other day.  RiverScape did not seem to be any larger than the Friendship Fountain area.  It was just better laid out.

Sorry it took so long; here's mine.

1. Build to the marketplace, not the rich folk. I worked extensively in real estate advertising (for LandMar and their Shipyards project in Jax, as well as other nonsense in Sprawl FloriDUH,) and it's pretty damned mind boggling that most of the high-rise developments either planned or built for downtown came at a huge price premium to live there. I'm an urbanite. If it costs me $100K less to live in the 'burbs, I'll do it. If it costs me $20K and a little space? I'll consider the downtown alternative. Moreover, it really shouldn't cost more at all to buy/rent downtown versus the 'burbs (and especially now, considering the husk that is Jax.) That brings me to my next point...

2. Build density, not height. Building dense is not the same as building up. In fact, in a depopulated place, a high-rise can sponge away the potential for the other lots to be developed (since the market now all lives there.) You need to reach critical mass and then build your skyscraper residences.

3. Know who is really going to move downtown. Let's face it. Right off of the bat, you're not going to convince families en masse to give up the yard, the Wal-Mart and the illusion of Rockwellian-a-burbia. In a toothless downtown, you're getting urban pioneers. Childless couples. Artists. Gays. People who go against the grain. Cater to these buyers. Sell unfinished new construction, so that buyers can imprint themselves on the condo. Encourage galleries, nightlife, etc. This is poison to Jax politicos, I'm sure, but if you really want Downtown Jacksonville to become renewed and refreshed, get the gays to move there. Before South Beach became an international hotspot, it was a gayborhood. That's just been proven all across America: gays are the first group to gentrification.

4. Market this environment as an escape. People in the 'burbs, raising kids, office parkin' a career...need a place to be adults again. To be reminded that life is about more than peas in their hair. Don't get me wrong...I mean this is a classy way...not Tampa's "Strip Club/Strip Mall" model for adult reminders! Downtown should be a place for adults to hear a great band. Or have a romantic dinner. Or see an art exhibition. For those that choose to live there...this is their daily life, but only some will initially buy into the promise...and then, only some will be able to live there...you need a commercial base outside of your resident population. 

5. Create a design/architect bible. Paris is beautiful because it has this. Seaside in Florida is stunning because of their design requirements. Consistency is not an enemy.

6. Respect and preserve your historical structures. Every city in the South has a multi-story, cement parking deck built in the 1970s, Jacksonville. We don't really need to wreck another building for another example of the "parking garage." Moreover, Jacksonville actually has history to protect and exploit. Miami/South Florida doesn't have a single Victorian-era building, as it wasn't a "place," for example. I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but Tampa has actually done very well here, using their historical, unique buildings to create desired places (albeit out of downtown, which they've wrecked and turned into a hole.) Whatever is historical that's left in the downtown core must stay. New adjunct development must integrate with the historical.

7. Be Jacksonville. Whatever that is, be it. Whatever you decide it to be, be it. My huge complaint with most downtowns is their ridiculous generic nature. [INSERT RANDOM HIGH-RISE HERE.] In FloriDUH, this is taken to the next extreme, where each downtown has a vaguely Miami-ish flavor (spanish drag, deco drag buildings.) Let Miami/South Florida be Miami/South Florida. Take advantage of your unique location, climate, culture and vision and present design and architecture that's built by you for you. It doesn't have to be big, nor flashy. It just has to be right. For your city.

8. Eliminate all one-way streets. Period.

9. Plan connections for the future. Each edge of downtown should be conceived as a gateway to the neighborhoods next door. If you take off, perhaps so will they, and your collective success will reinforce further success.

10. Effective, appropriate, affordable, 1st class transit. I don't care what this is (streetcar, bus, trolley, jitney, horses,) as long as it's the best, most top drawer variant of system. Convince people that it's not a social step down to leave the car behind and they will. 

Good list

Agreed, Aaron, a good list.  Now, if we could just get these common sense ideas knocked into the heads of our public officials and light a fire under them.  You don't need to have billion dollar budgets to get much of this done, just the discipline and willpower to see it through.  Every project and every day is a new opportunity to get it right.

Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on November 07, 2009, 03:48:43 PM

Quote from: stjr on November 07, 2009, 01:01:53 AM
Here is an idea, born of late night postings:  How about creating a structure or monument so unique it becomes the City's 'world famous" signature.  So awesome, that anyone visiting can't say they came to Jax without paying a visit to the site and taking a picture by it.  A must see for anyone coming near or to Downtown Jax.  Something that just a picture of it says Jacksonville, Florida.

stjr, I think I have it! How about a 300 foot high statue of Jaime Pressly, wearing a miniskirt and otherwise posed as Joy Turner from the "My Name Is Earl," TV series? Talk about a signature Jacksonville monument, she could even have her Lynyrd Skynyrd tee shirt on (wet of course!). Hey, she can be standing with one leg on each side of the football stadium with floodlights placed in a discreet manner, just for the highlights.

OCKLAWAHA

...or a likeness of anyone on the People of Walmart website - any one of them look like representatives of Jacksonville : )

Awesome list.  

I especially like number 4, "Market this environment as an escape." Makes tons of sense to me.

And 6 & 7:  this is why it is important to preserve Hogan's Creek as it is.  What other city has a Klutho Venentian canal?

QuoteAnd 6 & 7:  this is why it is important to preserve Hogan's Creek as it is.  What other city has a Klutho Venentian canal?

This actually always drove me nuts in South Florida. The cliche is that everybody lives near a canal...and instead of creating parks, or promenades, or boat transit...they're just drainage ditches.

Great List Aaron.  I agree on the density and Jacksonville style architecture points especially.  As a resident of one of the DT highrises, you'd never know there are 100 families on my block. There is very little foot traffic outside and no further development has sprung up as a result.

Locate a major 4 year university DT (not gonna happen)
Build an artifical surfpark downtown.
Its sounds quite crazy, but if its state of the art it would be the only one in the world.
Estimates are less than $20 million to build.
Some type of truly unique attraction.

Quote from: AaroniusLives on December 04, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
Sorry it took so long; here's mine.

1. Build to the marketplace, not the rich folk. I worked extensively in real estate advertising (for LandMar and their Shipyards project in Jax, as well as other nonsense in Sprawl FloriDUH,) and it's pretty damned mind boggling that most of the high-rise developments either planned or built for downtown came at a huge price premium to live there. I'm an urbanite. If it costs me $100K less to live in the 'burbs, I'll do it. If it costs me $20K and a little space? I'll consider the downtown alternative. Moreover, it really shouldn't cost more at all to buy/rent downtown versus the 'burbs (and especially now, considering the husk that is Jax.) That brings me to my next point...

3. Know who is really going to move downtown. Let's face it. Right off of the bat, you're not going to convince families en masse to give up the yard, the Wal-Mart and the illusion of Rockwellian-a-burbia. In a toothless downtown, you're getting urban pioneers. Childless couples. Artists. Gays. People who go against the grain. Cater to these buyers. Sell unfinished new construction, so that buyers can imprint themselves on the condo. Encourage galleries, nightlife, etc. This is poison to Jax politicos, I'm sure, but if you really want Downtown Jacksonville to become renewed and refreshed, get the gays to move there. Before South Beach became an international hotspot, it was a gayborhood. That's just been proven all across America: gays are the first group to gentrification.

7. Be Jacksonville. Whatever that is, be it. Whatever you decide it to be, be it. My huge complaint with most downtowns is their ridiculous generic nature. [INSERT RANDOM HIGH-RISE HERE.] In FloriDUH, this is taken to the next extreme, where each downtown has a vaguely Miami-ish flavor (spanish drag, deco drag buildings.) Let Miami/South Florida be Miami/South Florida. Take advantage of your unique location, climate, culture and vision and present design and architecture that's built by you for you. It doesn't have to be big, nor flashy. It just has to be right. For your city.

Sorry but some of your points seem to conflict with each other in my way of seeing things. You say to "build to the market place, not the rich folks," but then talk about gentrification of downtown. To me the goal is not to transform the downtown area necessarily into something upscale and ritzy as implied by gentrification, but it's to revitalize downtown to a point where people of all walks of life can live there and enjoy it. I know that sounds a little pie in the sky or maybe like it's a trivial difference, but I say that's a better goal. Poor people need a place to live just the same as rich people. I know that the culture of the rich is big on exclusivity, but I think that's wrong. To me the question is how do we make downtown a great place to live for all people.

I agree on what you say about building density not height for the sake of height. I agree about the preservation of our stock of historic buildings, and I believe that lends itself towards creating a unique Jacksonville identity,too. Here's a thought, too, maybe the Jacksonville identity doesn't need to revolve so much around architecture or stuff. Maybe our fingerprint is our people. The reason I prefer Jacksonville to some other cities is because the people I'm in contact with have usually been very warm and welcoming. I always felt like they were small town people in a big place. Obviously there are exceptions, but how do we encourage and nurture a stock of good citizens and a warm, friendly culture?

In 2002 I sent a copy of Richard Florida's Rise of the Creative Class to every member of the Jacksonville City Council and suggested that a great way to fuel economic development is to attract a larger gay population.  Guess how many I heard back from?  NOT A ONE.

A large gay community in a bible belt, with the largest landmark downtown being FBC,,, oil/water anybody.

The Tyra Banks show live from Hemming plaza.

Girls Gone wild to follow.

The rainbow flags increase the property values :)

QuoteThe reason I prefer Jacksonville to some other cities is because the people I'm in contact with have usually been very warm and welcoming. I always felt like they were small town people in a big place. Obviously there are exceptions, but how do we encourage and nurture a stock of good citizens and a warm, friendly culture?

Its essential that fallen buckeye's point be accepted. Along with the statistics of a population less than one million
in the country's largest municipality puts the term urban life low on the list. Particularly downtown. Jacksonville's urban life is based mainly in riverside and springfield, both of which are very competent. But the thread is about downtown.
Stjr idea of something unique downtown that draws one worldwide is a strong idea.
Commerical, retail growth in Jacksonville will continue along the 95 south corridor to st augustine for the forseeable future, theres just so much land without the drawbacks of downtown development.

Quote from: AaroniusLives on December 04, 2009, 12:30:08 PM
8. Eliminate all one-way streets. Period.

This, a 1000 times this.

QuoteYou say to "build to the market place, not the rich folks," but then talk about gentrification of downtown. To me the goal is not to transform the downtown area necessarily into something upscale and ritzy as implied by gentrification, but it's to revitalize downtown to a point where people of all walks of life can live there and enjoy it. I know that sounds a little pie in the sky or maybe like it's a trivial difference, but I say that's a better goal. Poor people need a place to live just the same as rich people. I know that the culture of the rich is big on exclusivity, but I think that's wrong. To me the question is how do we make downtown a great place to live for all people.

Gentrification, at least as a word, does not always imply "kick out the poor people." However, as gentrification is practiced in this country, it does involve a displacement of the lower classes. Agreed that it's a problem to be worked upon.

In terms of Floridian development especially, the municipalities tend to build new construction in downtown, only for a specific class of people. At least with a neighborhood gentrification, there's a period of displacement, and architectural renewal prior to the new high-rise inevitability.

In addition, I'm a realist. In an ideal city neighborhood, you can expect and encourage a spectrum of incomes to co-exist...but you can't blame the city officials for trying to encourage that spectrum to be on the upper end. Or people, for that matter. To put this into a real-life (mine) situation, it's much more safe and clean to be at the middle of the Georgetown spectrum of incomes, than to be at the upper end of the Columbia Heights spectrum of incomes. Moreover, property values are higher. Selfish? Of course. Have you met humanity? :p

QuoteA large gay community in a bible belt, with the largest landmark downtown being FBC,,, oil/water anybody.

Atlanta is chock-full of gays and religious nuts who believe in the magical wizard who lives in the sky. Gays tranformed quite a few of the inner core areas of Metro Atlanta. Jesus may be condemning the gays, but they do increase neighborhood vibrancy and are just the proven first wave of gentrification. For Jeebus' sake, the governor of Georgia prayed to the space god for water a couple of years ago...at a government building a few blocks from gay town. The co-existence of the religious and the persecuted mos def occurs, even in the "Bible Belt."

QuoteIn 2002 I sent a copy of Richard Florida's Rise of the Creative Class to every member of the Jacksonville City Council and suggested that a great way to fuel economic development is to attract a larger gay population.  Guess how many I heard back from?  NOT A ONE.

Of course not. In the South, that's political suicide. And lest we think that Miami is "liberal," they didn't encourage the gays to flock to South Beach in the 1980s. They just did. (Broward County, on the other hand, is extremely liberal, and actively encouraged gay gentrification in Fort Lauderdale, Wilton Manors, Pompano Beach, Hollywood and Oakland Park.)

1.
(http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/0e/b1/7d/the-mayan-temple.jpg)
How about an aquarium unlike anything in the USA?


2.(http://www.loge13.com/images/WorldsFair_1964.jpg)
Why not host the Worlds Fair, and leave us with a family place not seen in Jax since Dixieland Trolley Park was hammered by hail.


3.(http://ussjohnpauljones.org/images/GSI_NY_Worlds_Fair_Perisphere.jpg)
Lets move the Great Fire Monument to a place befitting its role in our history, let's lift it up for all the world to see. The Cross in St. Augustine is 208 feet high, why don't we reach for 300.

4.
(http://208.106.250.72/_media/imgs/articles/a262_wealth.jpg)
Rebuild the Fountain so that it trumps the one's in Dubi and Singapore.

5.
(http://activerain.com/image_store/uploads/8/6/8/8/5/ar117165536358868.jpg)
Why not some creative group rediscovering underground Jacksonville? The Tunnels are waiting.

6.
(http://home.comcast.net/~trolleydriver/2168Falls.jpg)
Step One, bring back the streetcars
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/Sx06dWb0d9I/AAAAAAAABcU/6CMyzLMgCh8/s144/streetcar%60museum%60Louisiana%60Museum%60Nat%60History.jpg)(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2203-p1040668.JPG)
Step Two, With a little elbow grease, a WORKING STREETCAR MUSEUM would turn a big nothing, into something!

7.
(http://www.steveharrelson.com/blogpics/navalmus.jpg)
Work with NAS JAX Warrior Park aircraft collection, a large collection of aircraft on loan from the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, and put our aircraft collection in a place where EVERYONE can learn and enjoy it. Sssssspt... There are a lot more where these came from.

8.
(http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/features/arts/music/blog/allmanbrothersband_bobweir_canandai.jpg)(http://www.aquariumdrunkard.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/alices-restaurant.jpg)
Southern Fried Rock Museum in the Old Snyder Church complete with concert stage and "Alices Restaurant." Another venue could be "RAY'S" a jazz and blues club downtown... and y'all know where!

9.
(http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/080130/films-worth-saving/glory_l.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/v/v0dpuKULBQo&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=
Florida's Civil War Adventure..."It's More then you Know..." A museum with a twist of Disney and Animatronics. This is a CURRENT tour route being operated from JIA, they land and leave, why?

QuoteDay 1: Georgia travel on your mind
South Carolina and Georgia travel experience departs from Florida’s Jacksonville International Airport at 3:00 PM. For guests spending the previous night on Jekyll Island, a transfer is included from Jacksonville International Airport to the Jekyll Island Club Hotel in the heart of the island's National Historic Landmark District. Enjoy the welcome reception and dinner at your elegant Victorian hotel, which was originally founded in the late 19th century as a hunting retreat for some of America's richest and most powerful families including the Rockefellers and the Vanderbilts; a stay on historic Jekyll Island is a Georgia travel highlight.

10.
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/jimthias/Transportation/SSK7-1756.jpg)
Rebuild the Shand's Bridge and get after reestablishing good old fashioned Steamship Cruises between JAX, Green Cove Springs, Palatka and Sanford. Wrap it all up with a bunch of tour companies, Amtrak and the airlines.
Plane or Train to Night in Jax, board river ship, cruise, Night in Palatka, cruise, Sanford, met by theme park and tour buses.

OCKLAWAHA

Ocklawaha,
     I like a great many of your suggestions, but I find them to be "stage two" or "stage three" ideas. The problem with downtown Jacksonville (and indeed, many downtowns across both the state and the nation,) are structural. There's a policy issue that's keeping downtown Jacksonville from being anything but a forgotten husk; it's a mouth missing teeth. Essentially, downtown Jacksonville is missing the essentials of life across the board. Large, monumental ornaments, stadiums and "festival marketplaces" only serve to demonstrate the black hole surrounding them.

Jacksonville Landing is a prime example of the failure surrounding this type of thinking. Outside of special events and lunch hour for downtown employees, this marketplace is empty, no? Indeed, wikipedia reprints a quote from the Florida Times-Union that states:

Quote"[t]he Landing has had a history of high turnover among its tenants and meager foot traffic during times when there are no special events."

Mind you, Jacksonville Landing isn't a singular example of this form of mistake. Miami's Bayside Marketplace and Tampa's Harbor Island Shops both didn't work. Tampa's still doesn't. Miami's is finally working, but only after establishing life in the city. The reason that Boston's Faneuil Hall worked involves the teeming masses of people surrounding Boston Common. There are no missing teeth.

Moreover, a "success" story can be relative. Baltimore's Inner Harbor of museums, "festival marketplaces," historical recreations of maritime boats and more does attract tourists to the downtown area (or, to be more precise, the road encircling the harbor.) But, as an impetus to activate the life in downtown Baltimore, the Inner Harbor project is an abject failure. For the past 29 years, Baltimore's Inner Harbor has attracted tourists and their dollars. Baltimore's Inner Harbor has drawn in people from their surrounding suburbs to play the role of "day tourists." Baltimore's Inner Harbor hasn't transformed downtown Baltimore into a vibrant, safe, alive alternative to playing house in the suburbs. After nearly 30 years, it's only those who can't afford to move (the poor,) those who are riding the snake (crack addicts,) and those who are "urban pioneers," and will deal with the grime and the crime (and the lack of things like non-tourist shops, supermarkets, etc) who live in downtown B'more.

That's a huge pity, as Baltimore has a lot of beautiful row homes, arcaded streets brimming with turn-of-the-century decor, and a rich tapestry of history to be discovered on their streets. So, the Inner Harbor may have increased the tax revenue collected in downtown, but it hasn't increased the life of downtown. It's not an alternative to the 'burbs. It's a place for the 'burbs to visit. While that's certainly an important component to a successful downtown (tourism, both local and other,) it's arguably the least important component.

Consider this: let's say you live in downtown Jacksonville, a downtown filled with the amenities you described. There's a unique aquarium. You can go hob-nob at the Underground caverns, complete with museum and gift shop. You can marvel at the fountain that out-did Dubai. That's pretty cool for like a week, right?

But then you need groceries. A dry cleaner. A favorite restaurant, cafe, or bar, that doesn't feature the "Naval Stinger" drink, complete with fake ice wings. You're surrounded by monuments, by ornaments...and what you really need are essentials. If downtown Jacksonville had none of the ornaments, if it were just parks, housing, shops and restaurants, it would be infinitely more successful. Start with life, and then enhance that life with the rest.

This is a long post (I write for a living and I'm a massive New Urbanist,) but I'd like to anecdotally reference my own life as an illustrative example. When I first moved to the District (Washington DC,) from Atlanta, my first four months were spent in a tourist haze. I went to every museum I could. I saw the monuments a zillion times. I visited the White House, the Capital...even the long-forgotten Titanic memorial in SW DC (taking my life in my own hands in many ways, I might add.) It. Was. Awesome.

After that, I discovered the greater side of living in DC. I found my favorite park bench at the Georgetown Waterfront to read a book at. I discovered my dry cleaner. I learned that Chadwicks is a great, cheap place to grab a beer in overpriced Georgetown, and that the Four Seasons is for when you want to overpay it. I learned how to use the Blue Bus to go to the Blue Line to go to the Target, Macy's, or Apple Store. I found life.

So now, when I go and take a bike ride down the Mount Vernon trail (on the way to do a little shopping at Target, of course,) I take a glance at the beauty of the Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials along the way. I raise my eyes to the sky at Haines Point, as planes land at the airport. And I see the omnipresent Washington Monument at nearly every stage of my journey. But...if all of that wasn't there, I'd still have a bike path that connects to shopping and dining...that many people use to commute, shop and work out...often at the same time. I'd still have life.

Get the first stage right and the rest will follow.

^^  Lots of valid points Aaron.  Great post. 

Instead of spending $19mm on Metro Park or even the Riverwalk, I would prefer a loan pool to rehab the 10-12 most significant, most endangered historic buildings.  That would include the Laura Trio, Barnett, Baptist Convention building, Ambassador hotel, etc.  The economy would make it a lot tougher right now, but if even 1-2 buildings were turned into MARKET RATE housing, that would be a big plus.  Save a few historic buildings while you still can, and  bring in new residents at teh same time.   

I agree with the need for sustainable life places in downtown. It's hard to be a big city without having a single Dollar Store, Market, or Retail and all of those things are needed to support the residents in all of those historic buildings. Sadly, we don't even have the gimmick to attract the stores or restored apartments. Years of downtown HATE is really telling. Streetcars and Ships cause huge influx of development. A single streetcar line connecting downtown with Riverside serves the purpose of giving anyone downtown a shopping mecca. Certainly we don't try all of this at once, but something like the Worlds Fair would introduce more folks then the Jags to our City, and leave us with fantastic infrastructure improvements. The Civil War adventure is urgent, we were the "War in Florida," moreover, we are up against the 150Th year celebration. The time to act is NOW.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote...something like the Worlds Fair would introduce more folks then the Jags to our City, and leave us with fantastic infrastructure improvements. The Civil War adventure is urgent, we were the "War in Florida," moreover, we are up against the 150Th year celebration.

I worry that this is merely the icing upon a non-existent cake. A world's fair ends, after all (and ask Montreal, whose WF banrupt the city for years.) To anecdotally look at my own life again, I grew up in suburban Miami-Dade County. I went to a magnet school in downtown Miami (New World School of the Arts.) Miami spent hundreds of millions or more trying to restart their downtown. They built a "festival marketplace." They built the Miami Arena. They helped finance a few large office buildings. They built a largely useless variant of the Skyway (the Miami Metromover, for when walking two blocks is too much for you.) They created an outdoor, outlet mall. They built the American Airlines Arena. They created a massive, state-of-the-art cruise ship port.

All that effort succeeding in attracting tourists to occassionally go downtown, or office workers who wanted the prestige of a downtown location. Up until recently, only the Brickell district of downtown got residential development, and it's all of the private building, gated-community "suburb in the sky" variant. Up until the last few years, if you lived in Brickell...you shopped in the suburbs!

It's only within the last decade that downtown Miami began to come to life in any meaningful way. They already had the icing...they're FINALLY getting the cake.

That was really the point of the DC anecdote as well. The museums, memorials and monuments are a nice addition. The walkable/transit-oriented/bicycle-friendly communities are the main event.

To put this another way...the way to make a great down-town is to start with the town aspect. At present, there isn't that sense of community, of connection, of neighbors and merchants and civic life. Dropping land bombs of tourist traps, postcard-friendly icons and statues, and temporal improvements doesn't add back the town to downtown. If anything, it detracts and distorts what downtown is supposed to be.

Quote from: AaroniusLives on December 07, 2009, 05:14:47 PM
That was really the point of the DC anecdote as well. The museums, memorials and monuments are a nice addition. The walkable/transit-oriented/bicycle-friendly communities are the main event.

To put this another way...the way to make a great down-town is to start with the town aspect. At present, there isn't that sense of community, of connection, of neighbors and merchants and civic life. Dropping land bombs of tourist traps, postcard-friendly icons and statues, and temporal improvements doesn't add back the town to downtown. If anything, it detracts and distorts what downtown is supposed to be.

I'm an idealist I know. I think we do agree on a lot of stuff though. DC might be a good example of a goal to set for a vibrant downtown in some ways (Population density and park space come to mind), but it doesn't seem like such a good model for how to get there. They have so many government entities and so on to anchor their inner-city area that we don't have. Until they move the U.S. capital people are definitely going to be there. I just wonder which cities of a similar profile to Jacksonville have had success in bringing their downtowns back from the dead and I wonder specifically what they are doing.

Going along the lines of what AaroniousLives was saying earlier, it also makes sense to think about what is obstructing people from living in the downtown area as opposed to a suburban area, so that we can remove these barriers. For me, off the top of my head, I would say:
-access to basic amenities such as grocery stores and general and hardware stores
-space
-access to good schools

Some of the people I know would probably say the perception of high crime and proliferation of homeless people are issues, too. So my list of things to make downtown a boomtown in no particular order would include:

1. Preserving existing stock of buildings to provide affordable spaces for delis, butchers, markets, and other "essential" shops. I wonder if we could offer some sort of loan or grant program for these types of businesses who chose to set up shop downtown to make it even easier to bring these places downtown.

2. Creation of a neighborhood association dedicated to promoting downtown revitalization similar to RAP, MHPA, or what's in Springfield. This may already be in place. I don't know, but I think it would help create an identity and foster the idea of a downtown community.

3. Improved signage and lighting to make downtown more user friendly for those new to the area.

4. Continue creating new green spaces throughout downtown and maintain existing parks.

5. Minimize metered parking.

6. Link downtown with adjoining areas by street car, Skyway, or whatever, especially the sports complex and Riverside.

7. Maybe not immediately, but as population increases build schools downtown

8. Having a recurring weekly or monthly special event downtown a la RAM or First Fridays could expose people to downtown in a positive light as long as it's well orchestrated and hopefully begin countering the perception that downtown is unsafe. I heard that there's a farmers market happening every week in Hemming Plaza. This would be a good example which also helps offset the fact that there is not much in the way of grocery shopping available downtown. It might be cool to have a place where local fishermen could sell their catch too.

9. They were talking about letting local artist use these empty spaces for galleries and studios. I say organize a monthly gallery hop or something. Create some synergy within the community. Or how about actually encouraging the artists to live in the downtown area. In my hometown, they have an artist colony downtown where they bring in artists from all over to live in these old buildings that no one was going to use anyways for fairly low rents. They open their studios to the public and have regular events like I described. Works really well.

Aaron and Falllen Buckeye, I think we are establishing some commonality of thought if you compare your posts to each other and mine initiating this thread.

Most of our comments relate to making Downtown a self-sustaining livable community, with its own residents, schools, parks, transit system, services, and every-day stores.  Once created, any embellishments overlayed on it would add the final polish to a attracting more residents and visitors that would further sustain more expansion and growth.  At some point, it takes a life of its own and the City can (needs to?) stand back and let it run.

Building ugly parking garages, removing any sense of character, place, or scale by destroying historic buildings and replacing them with empty lots or boxy glass structures, running off household retail, failing to provide intra-urban transit that is reliable and frequent, lacking infrastructure to support family life (schools, playing fields, parks), and not creating a sense of community with pedestrian friendly streets are prescriptions for failure regardless of the "big idea" projects cooked up by the CoJ or JEDC. 

The  Courthouse, a new skyscraper or hotel, the Riverwalk, a SuperBowl or other big time football event, a pocket park, a BRT or the $ky-high-way, a new "entrance" into Downtown aren't going to make anyone move to the urban core.

Now tell someone they can affordably live Downtown, walk safely to the grocery/drug  store, the park to run/bike/play, and the school and your are on your way.  How about a charter school only for Downtown residents?  Built on the Florida State College Campus or sharing the La Villa Arts Campus?  Make the Shipyards playing fields and a jogging/bike path.  Connect the two with a streetcar line cutting through the heart of Downtown and passing  by a grocery/drug store.  Don't think people will be ready to move in?

With all due respects y'all, I think you have lost sight of this articles intended theme. This is not about "saving downtown," this article is about big ideas and making downtown boom. So maybe the whole article is intended as a phase two, but I think unless we get another couple of CSX size mega Corporate relocation's, you can kiss downtown retail goodbye. Until we give the average citizen a reason for a downtown experience, and that said citizen won't fear for his life, or be hassled by the homeless.

Of course I realize the Worlds Fair is a short time venue, but do YOU realize the beneficial infrastructure that could be developed as a result? Yes, several Cities went bankrupt with the fair, but guess what, several more made money or got a huge makeover. Thinking big? Imagine taking everything from the Matthews to Metropolitan Park and seeing it turned into a World Expo center. (I'm not saying this is where it has to go, Brooklyn, LaVilla, JEA site, there are lots of BIG development sites in or near downtown, hell even the Confederate-Klutho Park complex...) New Orleans made a killing on the fair, managed it so well the City is a model for anyone willing to take it on. They were left with the fabulous waterfront, WWII D-Day museum, and a number of other improvements. Ditto Knoxville or Spokane, meanwhile the railroad industry is still abuzz over the Chicago Expo of 1936! Talk about making your mark!

Some of my ideas we already have, or at least the roots of them. "Rays" the "Alice's Restaurant - Southern Rock Hall of Fame", The Fountain, Streetcar routes, etc... In fact I'll throw y'all two more:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/Sx3VvTfNjII/AAAAAAAABdc/CGTYQEx5W6w/s144/jacksonville-red-caps.jpg)
BIRTHPLACE OF THE NEGRO LEAGUES MUSEUM:
Jacksonville's Negro League baseball team was known as the Jacksonville Redcaps before relocating to Cleveland in 1939.  A large segment of Jacksonville's early African-American population worked with the railroads.  Many black men worked as "RedCaps" or "Porters" (men who helped passengers with their baggage and supplies).  Randolph organized the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters

http://www.youtube.com/v/ydELVJXgEww&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca&border=1"></param><param%20name=
National Pullman Hall Of Fame

QuoteQuote
Randolph had some experience in labor organization, having organized a union of elevator operators in New York City in 1917. He was a member of Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity Inc. In 1925, Randolph organized the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters. This was the first serious effort to form a labor institution for the employees of the Pullman Company, which was a major employer of African-Americans. With amendments to the Railway Labor Act in 1934, porters were granted rights under federal law, and membership in the Brotherhood jumped to more than 7,000. After years of bitter struggle, the Pullman Company finally began to negotiate with the Brotherhood in 1935, and agreed to a contract with them in 1937, winning $2,000,000 in pay increases for employees, a shorter workweek, and overtime pay.

AP Randolph, from JACKSONVILLE, and so were the related RED CAPS, and the NEGRO LEAGUES.
OCKLAWAHA

QuoteWith all due respects y'all, I think you have lost sight of this articles intended theme. This is not about "saving downtown," this article is about big ideas and making downtown boom.

My "big idea" is to bring the "town" back downtown. That will make it boom in a sustainable way, instead of having temporal, touristy lifts. In SunBelt America, if you create a walkable, attractive environment, even without the razzle-dazzle of museums, stadiums and the rest (since we've already seen those to be, in essense, failures,) that...in and of itself...is an "attraction." It's almost absurd that part of the appeal of Disney World is Main Street, USA: a proto-lifestyle center that's basically a glorified mall that you can walk and shop in. People yearn for this style of development; it's almost novel in modern, drive-in America.

In South Florida, they built Mizner Park in Boca Raton...and people came in droves just to experience the pedestrian environment. Never mind the fact that 90% of the people there couldn't afford the shops, or more than a Diet Coke at a cafe. It was just so much more pleasant than their local mall, or a day spend traversing a parking deck to go to a bunker of a museum. In short...the "town" aspect is essentially the draw.

QuoteDC might be a good example of a goal to set for a vibrant downtown in some ways (Population density and park space come to mind), but it doesn't seem like such a good model for how to get there. They have so many government entities and so on to anchor their inner-city area that we don't have. Until they move the U.S. capital people are definitely going to be there.

Actually, DC lost a tremendous amount of population along the way as well, much like Jacksonville. The three main differences are that DC didn't decimate their building stock (and thus was able to be repopulated when the District took off again,) that DC didn't slice through their city with highways (although they almost did,) and that DC has the government there (thus retaining a solid employment base.) Probably the largest reason DC isn't a model involves federal funding for the city. There are vast lessons to be learned here (anyone want to come and do a photo tour, contact me,) but as a model for the country, and for Jacksonville? There are too many special conditions that set DC apart.

QuoteI just wonder which cities of a similar profile to Jacksonville have had success in bringing their downtowns back from the dead and I wonder specifically what they are doing.

I'd talk seriously to the governing body of West Palm Beach. Their multi-plot downtown plan has been remarkably successful, although their county is more populated than Duval to feed their efforts. Memphis, with a MSA about the same size as Jacksonville would be another city to look at. They've done a phenomenal job creating a boomtown from their downtown, notably their 8-block Peobody Place. Moreover, as the idiots who built the pyramid-shaped arena, Memphis already knows the folly of using monuments to "create" a downtown. They had to get it wrong before they got it right.

Quote...it also makes sense to think about what is obstructing people from living in the downtown area as opposed to a suburban area, so that we can remove these barriers. For me, off the top of my head, I would say:
-access to basic amenities such as grocery stores and general and hardware stores
-space
-access to good schools

In my opinion, the people you will attract downtown, at least initially, will not be concerned with schools as much. The urban pioneers will typically be young, childless professionals who have an adventurous spirit, and don't want to live on a typical cul-du-sac, and are willing to risk the initial "sketchy" stages of gentrification. (Absurdly, once the downtown takes off, the rich people buying the new condos are sending their kids to private school anyway!)

The access to basic amenities is a must. The problem is in convincing both the merchants AND the governing power not to just drop a typical strip mall in downtown: they have to build an appropriately scaled, pedestrian-friendly variant.

Space is related to price...you just get a great deal more space for your dollar in the 'burbs. What city living should provide is almost another set of rooms outside, in the streets, for your dollar. It's why I'm so reticent about land-bombing downtown Jacksonville with attractions, as these tend to monolith a city block (and considering Floridian development, are usually surrounded by parking decks.) Downtown/city living is about gaining the space of public life. Georgetown is my living room, for example. I may watch television inside my actual living room, but the streets, the parks, the shops and the paths are an extention of my home. For myself, it's worth the insane amount of money to live here. Then again, I'm one of those young, childless professional people that DC attracts. (I'm not an urban pioneer, however...Georgetown is anything but sketchy.)

Damn. I don't even live there...and I freakin' love this site!

Man, I'm going to have to get up to date on this during my lunch break.  Great ideas all around.

QuoteDamn. I don't even live there...and I freakin' love this site!

It is great and your input has been really interesting. Come visit and buy Jags tickets. ;D

Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on December 07, 2009, 09:27:45 PM
8. Having a recurring weekly or monthly special event downtown a la RAM or First Fridays could expose people to downtown in a positive light as long as it's well orchestrated and hopefully begin countering the perception that downtown is unsafe. I heard that there's a farmers market happening every week in Hemming Plaza. This would be a good example which also helps offset the fact that there is not much in the way of grocery shopping available downtown. It might be cool to have a place where local fishermen could sell their catch too.

9. They were talking about letting local artist use these empty spaces for galleries and studios. I say organize a monthly gallery hop or something. Create some synergy within the community. Or how about actually encouraging the artists to live in the downtown area. In my hometown, they have an artist colony downtown where they bring in artists from all over to live in these old buildings that no one was going to use anyways for fairly low rents. They open their studios to the public and have regular events like I described. Works really well.

We have this.  It's called the art walk.

I split my time between 2 cities so sometimes I get confused about what's here and what's there. I was thinking that there was only an art walk in some of the surrounding areas like Riverside, but apparently I was wrong. One thing I'm glad to be wrong about.

Quote from: AaroniusLives on December 08, 2009, 10:36:54 AM

QuoteWith all due respects y'all, I think you have lost sight of this articles intended theme. This is not about "saving downtown," this article is about big ideas and making downtown boom.

My "big idea" is to bring the "town" back downtown. That will make it boom in a sustainable way, instead of having temporal, touristy lifts. In SunBelt America, if you create a walkable, attractive environment, even without the razzle-dazzle of museums, stadiums and the rest (since we've already seen those to be, in essense, failures,) that...in and of itself...is an "attraction." It's almost absurd that part of the appeal of Disney World is Main Street, USA: a proto-lifestyle center that's basically a glorified mall that you can walk and shop in. People yearn for this style of development; it's almost novel in modern, drive-in America.

Jacksonville has an image more like 1965 Pittsburgh, then it does Boca, Cocoa or Orlando. In fact it is an image that was once the pride of a liberal, diverse, industrial city. We were often described as "The Newark of the South," and for better or worse, we groomed that image. When the big mills and heavy production moved out, a new class of "clean industry," came calling, highway based and often much smaller, they could just as easily go to Orlando as to Jacksonville, and many felt, "Why locate in the midst of the ruins of a once industrial society."

We'd all agree that a traditional urban downtown is superior to a strip mall or mega mall but in Jacksonville its a chicken and egg proposition. Which comes first? If we lay out the retail and dining without residential, it's not going to accomplish anything but bankruptcy. If we lay out residential and it remains empty for lack of retail and dining, that isn't going to accomplish anything either. What we need are the critical pieces of our story that are missing. There is a rich story in Jacksonville, far richer then any other city in Florida, but we have done a horrible job of preserving or showcasing it.

The problem is like a recent encounter with my 20 something daughter. She returned from the trip with a new pair of jeans, and asked me, "Dad, is this how you guys got your jeans?" It occurred to me that no, we didn't buy jeans with holes in them. As a matter of fact, each hole in the "hippie jeans" was a story, each story patched with love by a boyfriend or girlfriend, and the jeans were said to contain a "Soul." Modern day Orlando, Boca, and Cocoa, are like my daughters jeans, a quick knockoff of a city. Jacksonville is the real thing, in fact there wouldn't be a Miami, Orlando or Tampa, had we, and our citizens, not financed it.

Our challenge lays in getting the speeding hordes on I-95 and I-10 to stop for a quick visit, once they do, if we do our job, they'll be back. You are correct in stating that we have a stadium (baseball) and museums (MOSH)(Cummer) etc...

The venues haven't failed us, we have failed them. We have the birthplace of the Negro Leagues but no team, no real museum, no reason to stop and see. The Landing is the same story, we have the gift shops and food court, but no major mall or tourist attraction to attach it to. We once had plans for such, but like so many other things, we have never had the leadership to more forward on anything. We have the pub where Ray Charles started his career - sitting empty and abandoned. We have the largest railroad station south of Washington DC, and we made it into a cracker box convention center. We have the only complete silent film era studio IN THE WORLD, preserved it and ?? nothing. Southern Rock was probably invented here, yet who knows? At least 5 federal ships and one confederate ship were sunk during the War of Yankee Aggression, and our museum will fill a phone booth. We HAD a beautiful beach midway, often compaired with Cony Island a hurricane took it down and we never rebuilt.

Ask yourself, if you could go to the Negro League ball field and watch an all star team of African-American team representing the JACKSONVILLE RED CAPS vs the NY Yankee's would anybody come? You bet they would, but a few more posters on sheets of foam board isn't what we are talking about here.  We really need to complete those big ideas, properly show cased and promoted, we would be on a roll.

OCKLAWAHA

I never heard the "Newark of the South" but I remember hearing the "Hartford of the South" because of all the insurance companies.

Slightly off-topic, take a look at what cool transit venues can do for creating a sense of place:

http://www.designboom.com/weblog/cat/9/view/8346/subway-architecture.html

Beautiful Photographs! I wanna live there!

Thank you finehoe.

QuoteJacksonville has an image more like 1965 Pittsburgh, then it does Boca, Cocoa or Orlando.

Outside of Florida, Jacksonville doesn't really have an image. Inside of Florida, it's the other generic mid-sized metro area that's not Mickey-town or Cubarusalemaica York City. Not that it matters: in many ways, it's better to not have some imagined reality to try and live up to.

QuoteIf we lay out the retail and dining without residential, it's not going to accomplish anything but bankruptcy. If we lay out residential and it remains empty for lack of retail and dining, that isn't going to accomplish anything either.

Lay out both simulataneously. It's the very definition of mixed-use development. Furthermore, by creating mixed-use development, you encourage the growth of both sides of the equation. A residential population within walking distance of commerce encourages commercial enterprise to move in. A commercial district with a captive, walking distance population of consumers encourages more residential. That's just proven: it's why the paradigm shift to monocultured zoning has been such a failure, and frequently is difficult to retrofit. Mix the uses right from the start for success.

QuoteModern day Orlando, Boca, and Cocoa, are like my daughters jeans, a quick knockoff of a city. Jacksonville is the real thing, in fact there wouldn't be a Miami, Orlando or Tampa, had we, and our citizens, not financed it.

Not exactly. Orlando exists in its current form because of Disney World. Boca Raton and Miami are the result of a privately funded railroad being pushed down by Henry Flagler, because he saw a demand there that just wasn't being met further up the coast. Tampa exists as a metro specifically because Plant built his railroad there, and the sheltered port defined the city. But again, outside of Orlando's development in the age of Disney, the cities you mentioned became cities in the age before the state/federal funding era, and were primarily funded/financed by rail and land barons in the Gilded Age of unregulated capitalism.

Besides, does it matter? Should we give credit to whatever city came before Jacksonville for the success of Jacksonville? If that's the case, Boston and St. Augustine should be our shining cities on the hill for whatever came afterwards.

Furthermore, this is kind of a dangerous row to hoe, as South Florida is currently funding a majority of state projects designed to grow the other regions. I actually think that's correct in theory (although perhaps the percent of revenue directed away is too much,) as the large metros need to support the others along their way to development. I respect that you have pride in your hometown. I respect that you see Jacksonville as having a rightful place in the firmament of Floridian history. But I don't think the denigrating of other cities and their places in the present remotely helps Jacksonville find its future.

QuoteThe venues haven't failed us, we have failed them. We have the birthplace of the Negro Leagues but no team, no real museum, no reason to stop and see. The Landing is the same story, we have the gift shops and food court, but no major mall or tourist attraction to attach it to.

Stop building for tourists and start building for people. Then you will have both success in downtown revitalization and tourism. All of the other stuff you have, or you could develop will come when you activate a pedestrian-friendly, mixed-use downtown. When you add the "town" back. That lesson has been proven all over the country. Time and time and time and time again, the museum, mall, stadium, or the rest did nothing without the proper canvas of mixed-use, lively development to knit it all together. That's been proven in Jacksonville, for Pete's sake. Add the town back first. Then we can have the African-American Baseball Silent Film First Major City of Florida monument. At that point, they'll actually be people and business downtown to care.

New Times Union series on Downtown picks up many of our points in this thread including need for affordable housing, parks, street-friendliness, everyday type retail and services, sticking to a plan until it is completed, and, from our consolidation discussion, the distractions from Downtown caused by a consolidated government worried about the suburbs.  Read it below:

QuoteLights dimming on Jacksonville's bold plans for downtown
Why Jacksonville's downtown vision remains unfulfilled and unfocused.

   * By David Hunt, David Bauerlein
   * Story updated at 8:41 PM on Friday, Dec. 11, 2009

Fireworks exploded. Thousands of people gathered. Cash registers rang up sale after sale.

It was a summer night in 1987, brimming with promise. The Jacksonville Landing had just opened, giving downtown its first riverfront center for shopping, dining and entertainment.

Two decades later, the center struggles to fill darkened retail space once occupied by trendy national chains, and Jacksonville is still searching for the formula that will make downtown the vibrant hub and cultural heart of a sprawling city.

City Hall has set a straightforward goal for downtown: Become “the place to be in Northeast Florida.”

The preferred address for people who want to live in a walkable neighborhood. The premier office location. The hot spot for nightlife.

The reality isn’t kind: A series of high-profile development meltdowns has left downtown scarred with empty, tomb-like buildings. Prime city-owned acreage along the St. Johns River remains barren. Sorely needed revitalization plans have been undermined by on-again, off-again funding.

Today, Jacksonville lags behind other cities that have lured tens of thousands of people downtown to live, work and play. And the gap is widening.

“Downtown just really hasn’t caught on,” said Hugh Jones, who retired in 1993 as CEO of Barnett Bank. “I saw it disappearing as I was leaving.”

A Times-Union analysis into what’s ailing Jacksonville’s downtown found major obstacles to revitalization and a pattern of resistance by city leaders that belies long-playing save-the-core rhetoric:

* Just as residential development was picking up steam, the city pulled back from offering critical financial incentives. A flurry of proposals for new high-rise towers never got off the ground.

* While downtown development authorities in other cities grow stronger by the year, Jacksonville eliminated its agency in 2006 in the name of streamlining.

* There hasn’t been an office skyscraper built downtown in 20 years because high vacancy rates keep such projects from being viable. The rate currently tops 22 percent and the number of downtown workers has fallen this decade.

* City Hall has hit the wall financially on its revitalization programs. Millions generated by a special district that plows taxes back into downtown have been virtually exhausted. Another downtown fund was tapped to cover cost overruns at an animal care shelter in Riverside.

* City Hall hasn’t picked any concentrated area of downtown for a fully funded, complete revitalization that would create a walkable area where businesses, venues and residences can feed off each other’s foot traffic.

As a result, Jacksonville ranks near the bottom of the list nationally on two key indicators of a healthy core: the number of residents and retail stores.

Today, there are an estimated 2,600 downtown residents â€" well short of the 10,000 city officials and revitalization experts say are needed to give retailers the confidence to set up shop.

Jerry Moran, owner of La Cena Ristorante near Hemming Plaza, said he won’t forget the way one of his customers described downtown: “You have a beautiful city, but where are the people?”

“We still have a ways to go,” Mayor John Peyton said in a recent interview. “There have been a lot of cities that have turned the corner. You see a lot of cities in the South that have made that turn, and we have not. But we have put a lot of building blocks in place.”

Those building blocks include scenic riverfront property with prime acreage under city control, relatively cheap land, a concentration of cultural attractions and nearby sports stadiums.

The Times-Union spent four months investigating the health of downtown, with a team of reporters conducting more than 200 interviews and traveling coast to coast in search of solutions.

Role models weren’t hard to find: From San Diego to Pittsburgh, from Charlotte, N.C., to Greenville, S.C., scores of rebounding downtowns are ushering in an urban renaissance in America, drawing an invigorating mix of empty-nesters, young professionals and hipsters.

Those success stories took years to unfold, but they share common ingredients: hard work, a fierce commitment to the inner city and strong public-private partnerships. Keep reading this series to learn more about how other cities breathed new life into troubled cores.

Jacksonville, Peyton said, must continue to invest in downtown because it’ll be a hot spot for residential growth in the future.

For the remaining 19 months  of his term, however, budget woes will hamper revitalization.

“These are symptoms of an under-resourced government,” he said. “Downtown is a casualty of that. Digging out of this [budget] hole will be working through the need-to-have versus the want-to-have.”

'Not ready for prime time’

At least on paper, downtown as a place to live appeared ready for liftoff four years ago. Developers were unveiling eye-grabbing renderings of glass-walled towers rising from the riverfront â€" 35 stories, 43 stories, 70 stories high.

With thousands of new residences seemingly within reach, confident city leaders took the position that downtown had reached the point where taxpayer incentives were no longer necessary.

If all the projects had been built, downtown’s population would have hit a projected 9,300 residents by now. Instead, the red-hot real estate market went into the deep freeze. Developers vanished and many of the projects evaporated. Others couldn’t move forward without subsidies.

Over the past decade, downtown has seen growth in residential housing, but almost all of those projects obtained financial incentives from City Hall in redevelopment deals struck between 1999 and 2004.

The pullback on incentives played out prominently in the fate of four historic buildings that remain vacant in the middle of downtown: The Barnett Bank building and the nearby “Laura Street Trio,” which once housed two other banks and an insurance company.

Mike Langton, developer of the W.A. Knight Lofts, a downtown office building conversion, attempted to renovate the 23-story Barnett building along Laura into apartments. He figured he needed a $1 million grant and a low-interest $11 million loan from the city.

That package would have been less than the $5 million grant and $16.5 million loan the city previously provided Jacksonville-based Vestcor Cos. to turn the nearby empty Roosevelt Hotel into a 100-unit apartment building: The Carling.

But Langton said Peyton told him politely at a social gathering that the city simply couldn’t afford to give him the incentives he wanted.

Langton said taxpayer assistance is vital because developers cannot charge higher rents to residents until downtown gets more retail and entertainment within walking distance of their apartments.

“Downtown is not ready for prime time yet,” he said.

After he dropped out, Orlando developer Cameron Kuhn bought the Barnett and said he didn’t need city loans. He got a $900,000 grant from the city’s historic preservation program. His planned redevelopment flamed out in foreclosure.

The same dead-end scenario unfolded for the Laura Street Trio, also a Kuhn project.

After the city bought the trio in 2002, the Downtown Development Authority and Jacksonville Economic Development Commission approved an $18 million incentive package with Signet Development Ltd. to turn the buildings into housing with street-level shops.

In 2004, the city called off the deal and gave the trio to the Jacksonville Police and Fire Pension Fund, a move aimed at reducing the city’s unfunded pension liability. The fund’s managers planned to restore the buildings, but later sold them to Kuhn.

The city approved a $1.05 million grant to Kuhn for the trio. His plans dissolved in his company’s financial meltdown.

Downtown likewise couldn’t capitalize on the real estate boom by getting development at The Shipyards. Up to 1,000 housing units, plus retail and office space, were envisioned for 40 acres of former industrial property between the downtown core and the sports complex.

City officials called it part of a “billion-dollar mile” that would transform a desolate piece of waterfront with housing, offices and shopping.

The city paid out $36.5 million for work at the site, but a bitter dispute about how the money was spent forced out the first developer, TriLegacy. LandMar, which replaced TriLegacy, continued to work on items such as the bulkhead before its parent company declared bankruptcy this year. The land remains vacant.

“After Kuhn and The Shipyards, you’re not real unless you’re under construction,” said Jacksonville developer Bill Cesery.

'Drifting along aimlessly’

How public money factors into downtown development has been an age-old issue in Jacksonville.

Frank Nero, former director of the now-disbanded Downtown Development Authority, used the term “trench warfare” to describe his experience in the 1990s.

“It played better to be for [suburban] drainage and against the Riverwalk,” Nero said. “Downtown became a poster child to get kicked.”

Former City Councilman Matt Carlucci was among the council members who pushed for shifting money to the growing suburbs instead of downtown. He later changed his mind.

“Executives would want to know if they were moving to a city on the go or a city that’s just drifting along aimlessly,” Carlucci said. “That was like a light bulb going off in my head. We can’t just do this [job growth] with tax breaks.”

In the past decade, the city has approved $140 million in taxpayer incentives â€" mainly grants, loans and tax breaks â€" to attract private investment for housing, offices and retail in the downtown area. Another $686 million has been invested in new civic buildings â€" the arena, baseball park, main library, county courthouse, plus upgrades to the football stadium, extension of the Northbank Riverwalk, parks and streets.

There’s been some payoff. The 90-block inner city’s taxable property value totaled $869 million in 2008, a 37 percent increase over 2001.

But in Jacksonville’s consolidated city-county form of government, downtown must compete for funding priority with demands from constituents spread across 841 square miles.

Jacksonville used to have a downtown development agency with an appointed board and executive staff beating the drum for the city core. The Downtown Development Authority, formed in the 1970s, became an advisory board within the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission when then-Mayor John Delaney formed the JEDC.

In 2006, Peyton reorganized the JEDC and eliminated the DDA. The JEDC still had the responsibilities of downtown redevelopment, but with a smaller staff â€" 18 employees for the entire county, down from 40 in 2004. By contrast, Orlando’s downtown-only authority boasts a 15-member staff.

The only organization today with that sole focus is Downtown Vision, a nonprofit “business improvement district” formed in 2000 at the behest of Delaney after he learned how similar districts helped Philadelphia and other cities. City Hall is paying about $230,000 of this year’s $1.2 million budget.

Downtown Vision provides enhanced trash collection service, publicizes events and hires the orange-clad ambassadors who walk around downtown giving directions and other assistance.

Carlton Jones, a Jacksonville developer who has done projects in Washington, said it was a mistake to disband the DDA.

“The Downtown Development Authority would have its sole focus on downtown,” he said. “Each and every day, its people would wake up in the morning and ask, 'How can I improve downtown?’ ”

The key: People in homes

City officials are still banking on residential development sparking a turnaround for downtown.

“The key is residential, residential, residential,” said JEDC Executive Director Ron Barton.

But the city has little money on hand for would-be developers. Downtown’s tax-increment financing districts â€" special districts that capture taxes from rising property values and redirect them toward redevelopment â€" are expected to spin off little new money in the next five years as the market slowly recovers.

This fiscal year, the downtown tax districts will generate nearly $10 million, but most of that is already spent, earmarked for previously approved development deals, including a $4 million subsidy for parking garages built for the arena and future county courthouse. Making matters worse, the city siphoned more than $300,000 from the district’s coffers to bolster the ailing general fund.

It wouldn’t be the first time downtown-improvement money was tapped for projects outside the core. In 2005, the city withdrew $3.5 million to cover cost overruns at an animal control center in Riverside.

The bottom line: There’s scant funding available for the city to make headway on a 19-step action plan enacted in 2007 with the goal of creating a “world-class” downtown. That would cost roughly $500 million, with much of that invested in an expanded park system and revamp of city streets to make downtown more walkable.

Instead, the city is taking a bite-sized approach. In January, a $2 million Laura Street facelift will make it a two-way street with wider sidewalks that are more appealing to pedestrians. Peyton also wants to spend $19 million this year on riverfront improvements.

“The cities that you enjoy visiting that have turned the corner usually get the public realm right,” Barton said. “The parks drive people downtown. The streets are so enjoyable that you want to be on your feet on the streets.”

'I knew it was over’

Residential development is doubly important because downtown’s other source of people â€" its workers â€" is shrinking.

There were an estimated 60,000 workers in 2001, according to Downtown Vision. That number dipped to 55,000 in 2008.

Last year, Deutsche Bank picked the Butler Boulevard corridor to build offices for up to a thousand employees. In 2006, Fidelity Investments chose the Southside as the site for a 1,200-employee financial services center.

The city has tried at times to stop the migration of offices to the suburbs. In 2003, the city approved a $1.8 million incentive to keep Stein Mart’s corporate headquarters downtown.

Others couldn’t be persuaded. Delaney recalled when American General bought Gulf Life, pulling an icon out of what is now the Riverplace Tower on the Southbank.

“I was sitting there with that CEO begging him. He said, 'John, I can move anywhere there’s a phone jack and an electrical outlet.’ I knew it was over then,” Delaney said.

Not everyone shares that philosophy.

Michael Ward, CEO of CSX Corp., said downtown provides 1,800 of the Fortune 250 railroad’s office workers a pleasant look at the St. Johns River as well as a centralized commute, enabling them to live anywhere in town.

“We need to be here. It’s a wonderful location,” Ward said. “If we went to a real estate developer and said we need space for this many people, someone would be glad to build it for us. But we’re not interested in that. We’re not interested in leaving.”

In the downtown core, the last privately built office tower was the 42-story Bank of America tower. It opened in 1990, capping a construction blitz of offices that changed the skyline on both sides of the St. Johns River.

Since then, developers haven’t been able to justify the cost of another tower in the central business district, said Mike Harrell, senior vice president at CB Richard Ellis, an international real estate company with an office in downtown Jacksonville. He said if downtown filled up empty office space and leasing rates went up, the payback could be there for a developer.

The downtown office vacancy rate is now 22.3 percent â€" higher than the metropolitan area average of 20.3 percent. Harrell said the rate would have to drop to 5 percent â€" and stay there â€" before developers risk building another skyscraper.

Unfulfilled promise

Even if downtown workers were inclined to stay after work, they have a limited menu of places to go.

Many restaurateurs operate their business like a high school cafeteria â€" busy at midday and midday only. Dinner isn’t served.

Until the 1980s, downtown was home to five department stores. Today, there’s no place for thousands of office workers to even buy a dress or suit, much less do their Christmas shopping.

In 2007, a city report on what’s needed listed a pharmacy, grocery store, higher-end spa, medical center, yoga studio, sports bar, antique and consignment shops, and a large place for artisans to work and sell their wares.

Consultants said other cities have used grants and loans to help local retailers get a foothold in downtown, paving the way for national chain stores to follow.

But Jacksonville has used incentives only sporadically for retail establishments, and the results have been spotty at best:

* A $1.9 million construction loan for construction of Sax Seafood & Grill in the LaVilla neighborhood, which borders downtown. The restaurant never opened and the city now owns the property.

* A $50,000 loan for the startup of the Eclate Jazz Club on East Bay Street. Eclate later closed, but paved the way for the next tenant, The Dive Bar, which is still open.

* $260,000 to furnish and equip an eatery in the new main library. Shelby’s, a popular Neptune Beach coffee shop, opened its library location in 2007, but couldn’t make it work. No other tenants have followed.

The city balked in 2003 at a $51 million package of federal and city loans, plus city grants, for an overhaul of the  Landing that would have demolished the middle of the center, creating an opening from Laura Street to the river. Owner Toney  Sleiman also rolled out plans for more stores, plus condominiums, offices, hotel rooms and a marina. Those projects haven’t materialized.

“The Landing had the promise and never quite fulfilled it,” said Cesery, who is planning a revival of his own: Converting the old downtown library into a wine bar, restaurant and grocery.

Janice Lowe, general manager of the Landing, said Sleiman still wants to redevelop the center, but can’t do it alone.

“The successful projects are public-private ventures,” she said.
'Can’t be a ghost town’

Thirty years ago, Jake Godbold made downtown the cornerstone of his mayoral agenda.

Today, at his Northside chemical plant office, there’s an illustration he keeps on the wall of the city skyline with his portrait superimposed. It says “Jakesonville.”

Godbold said downtown has made strides since he took office in 1979, but it’s still not what he pictured.

“As downtown goes, so goes your city,” he said. “It doesn’t matter if someone is looking at J. Turner Butler or anywhere else. They judge a city on downtown and it can’t be a ghost town.”

david.bauerlein@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4581

david.hunt@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4025

From: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-13/story/lights_dimming_on_jacksonvilles_bold_plans_for_downtown

QuoteThe key: People in homes

City officials are still banking on residential development sparking a turnaround for downtown.

“The key is residential, residential, residential,” said JEDC Executive Director Ron Barton.

This is the problem.  The key isn't residential, its embracing connectivity.  Public money invested in the core has not been centralized or planned to let projects feed off of each other.  That's the major difference between DT Jax and the more successful ones.  We treat DT like its a +800 square mile island and spread limited investment all over instead of using transit to connect it with vibrant urban core neighborhoods or focusing on getting one compact central spot right.  We build an arena a mile east of the CBD's heart, a convention center a mile west and a convention center hotel a mile between both of them.  We balk on the Landing (centralized and existing) but shift millions to fund proposals in Brooklyn.  We build a new library but rip down a solid block of historic buildings to do so instead of putting it on one of our surface parking lots.  We continue to not be able to land those who want to come DT (ex. Florida Coastal School of Law), sending them to the Southside instead.  To solve a traffic congestion problem that occurs once a year, we try to relocate an event bringing 500,000 to DT annually to Cecil Field.  The market is one thing but our city is it's own worst enemy.  Until the embracing of connectivity and piggybacking happens, nothing will change.  Unfortunately, we still don't get it.

2 great things to get from this first piece:


1) "In 2006, Peyton reorganized the JEDC and eliminated the DDA. The JEDC still had the responsibilities of downtown redevelopment, but with a smaller staff â€" 18 employees for the entire county, down from 40 in 2004. By contrast, Orlando’s downtown-only authority boasts a 15-member staff. "


2) “As downtown goes, so goes your city,” he said. “It doesn’t matter if someone is looking at J. Turner Butler or anywhere else. They judge a city on downtown and it can’t be a ghost town.”

I think that connectivity, walkability and desireability (safe and clean appearance) will DRAW in the residents, which will in turn bring the retail and restaurants, and then additional office users. 

I don't think you can count on just drawing in Riverside and San Marco folks to DT, when they have most of what they need already in their borders.  There does have to be a resident population in DT itself of at least 10,000. 

The article is very well done IMO.  It hits the bullseye pretty good.  It also illustrates how the city has been it's own worst enemy, as lake mentions. The scattershot, uncoordinated, search for a silver bullet, stop and start, fund then de-fund approach has been a failure.  There has to be a PLAN and it has to be FOLLOWED year after year, administration after administration.

One NEW thing I learned from the article, was how TIF monies have been siphoned off to build an animal shelter and to support the general fund.  Maybe I missed it, but where was the news coverage of that?  I know in SC, the law requires TIF money to be spent within the boundaries of the TIF itself. 

Peyton talks a big game about DT, but the diversion of these funds, PLUS the distruction of the DDA, show that his actions are in opposition to his rhetoric. 

I would also like to know why the city can fund private parking garages with an 8% GUARANTEED return to the investors, but wouldn't  support other deals like Mike Langton's.  At least with Langton, 11 of the 12 million would be paid back, and a huge vacant building would have RESIDENTS and shops/restuarants.  Those garages are mostly vacant and add nothing to the quality of life DT.          

Another downtown fund was tapped to cover cost overruns at an animal care shelter in Riverside.

wtf?

Per the T-U article on the success of revitalizing the downtown of Greenville, SC, note the attention to parks and pedestrian friendly streets!  Sound familiar?  We need to make the Shipyards and JEA sites public parks with playing fields, jogging and bike paths, riverfront friendly, etc.

If our "planners" would just self examine what they, themselves, demand for living somewhere, and make it happen for downtown, we would be well on our way.  Anyone who looks for a nice place to live is an expert on this subject!  It's common sense, not rocket science.  Sooooo... frustrating that we can't implement something sooooo.... simple.

QuoteGreenville, South Carolina's, makeover was a natural for old textile center
Falls Park helps transform an Upstate gem.

    * By Charlie Patton
    * Story updated at 7:08 PM on Friday, Dec. 11, 2009

......Much of the residential development was triggered by the Falls Park on the Reedy, a 26-acre park that opened about five years ago.

Greenville is significantly smaller than Jacksonville â€" an official city population of 56,000, according to the 2000 Census, and an estimated metro population of slightly more than 600,000.

And the Reedy River is significantly smaller than the St. Johns River.

“It’s what my father would call a creek,” Whitworth said.

But as it passes under Main Street, the Reedy tumbles over rock ledges, becoming a narrow, picturesque falls. For years, the falls were ignored, largely hidden from view by a vehicular bridge.

The city eventually convinced the state to remove that bridge and now the falls are a centerpiece. That project was simply the most recent development that over three decades has transformed Greenville’s core from ghost town to jewel.

The process started when Main Street was redesigned to be more pedestrian-friendly. Sidewalks were widened. Parallel parking gave way to angled parking. Meters were removed. A canopy of oak and maple was planted.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-15/story/greenville_south_carolinas_makeover_was_a_natural_for_old_textile_center

Once again, another city, Oklahoma City, investing in parks, recreation, quality of life projects, pedestrian friendly streets, connectivity/transit, and a balance of attractions. Duuuuhhhhh!

QuoteMAPS3

Fresh off the success of MAPS and MAPS2, MAPS3 is intended to take Oklahoma City to the next level by heavily focusing on connectivity and creating a vibrant central urban environment.

MAPS3 Projects:

$280 million - A new downtown convention center, adjacent to the new central park, featuring 400,000 square feet of exhibition hall space.

$130 million - 70-acre central park linking downtown with the Oklahoma River.

$130 million - 5 to 6 mile rail-based streetcar system

$60 million - Oklahoma River improvements, including a whitewater kayaking facility and upgrades to achieve the finest rowing racecourse in the world.

$60 million - Renovations to State Fair Park public buildings, meeting halls and exhibit spaces.

$50 million - State-of-the-art health and wellness aquatic centers throughout the city designed for senior citizens.

$40 million - 57 miles of new public bicycling and walking trails throughout the city.

$10 million - For sidewalks to be placed on major streets and near facilities used by the public throughout the city.

$17 million - Contingency funds to cover unforeseen costs.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?action=post2

By the way, the total investment here is $777 million.  How are they funding this?  The 70 acre park and convention center are about 14% more than our new Courthouse.  Which investment would do more for the future of Jax?

Likewise, the total $777 million is only about a third of the $2+ billion to build the Outer Beltway.  Which of these investments will advance Jax the most?  Invest these dollars downtown and "toll" the residents and businesses there (i.e use tax increment financing - the increase in property taxes to offset the investment).  That makes a lot more sense.


And, what does this architecture say about the vision, energy, excitement, and progressiveness of the City?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/739043518_9MXou-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/739043517_Mev6i-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/739043426_RVoEj-M.jpg)


The canal to replace an alley?  Brilliant.  We could dig canals to connect to Hogan and/or McCoys Creek easily.  Jax could be the "Venice of the South".

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/739043371_YPw9Q-M.jpg)

Here is an outsider's view on Jax's downtown.  Interesting take on their reasons for our failures.

QuoteCharlotte, Jacksonville offer economic lessons for Tampa Bay's future

By Robert Trigaux, Times Business Columnist
In Print: Tuesday, December 15, 2009

More than 20 years ago, Tampa embraced a quixotic spirit and chose the slogan Tampa, America's Next Great City. Today it sounds hallucinogenic at best.

In this recession, in Tampa Bay's 11.7 percent unemployment rate, and in Florida's postbubble era of financial contrition, it's doubtful we'll be on a "next great" list for anything for a while.

We're not alone.

Other southeastern metro areas are taking painful stock in where they're going from here. Two of them â€" Charlotte, N.C., and Jacksonville â€"are peers and competitors, and may offer some economic lessons for Tampa Bay.

Charlotte transformed from a sleepy North Carolina town to become a banking behemoth, claiming bragging rights to the headquarters of both Bank of America and First Union (which later became Wachovia). Those banks powered into Florida, buying up market share while local bankers blinked their eyes. The two banks still dominate Florida.

But in Charlotte, both banks' powers are now waning. Bank of America is muddling through a series of embarrassing situations, and harshly criticized CEO Ken Lewis is retiring early. When weak Wachovia last year stumbled into the acquiring arms of California's Wells Fargo Bank, Charlotte lost one of its top bank headquarters.

In Charlotte's power structure, the two banks were once known as the "two rich uncles." Now Charlotte is struggling to figure out who will fill the leadership void.

In Jacksonville, decades of misguided downtown revival efforts produced a lot of finger-pointing but little lasting value. Jacksonville has been a repeat victim of fiscal blunders, bankruptcy-plagued private development efforts and a political structure that has forced the city's downtown to compete with suburban demands for public funding.

Former Jacksonville City Council member Matt Carlucci favored suburban funding until business executives asked "if they were moving to a city on the go or a city that's just drifting along aimlessly." That changed his mind. Now he backs a downtown core.

For Tampa Bay, there are lessons to be learned:

1. Tampa Bay has never enjoyed the simplistic luxury of Charlotte's "two rich uncles" boldly leading the economic development way. But Tampa Bay will never have to replace any dominating corporations because we don't have any of such magnitude here. That's also good news because economic development is a more democratic (if sometimes slower) process here, something Charlotte is belatedly embracing.

2. With Tampa Bay's more complicated tri-city structure of Tampa, St. Petersburg and Clearwater, each of the three cities has labored with different success to make its downtown a compelling place to work and live. Still, Tampa Bay overall has a better track record than Jacksonville in making progress downtown.

3. Severe recessions test metro areas differently. They can weaken the role of long-standing businesses. They can undermine metrowide confidence when economic development efforts fail to deliver. And they can create economic standstills by sapping public funding resources.

For now, let's skip the daydream of being America's next great city and concentrate on becoming America's best comeback city.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/economicdevelopment/charlotte-jacksonville-offer-economic-lessons-for-tampa-bays-future/1058785#

QuoteJax could be the "Venice of the South".

That's already Fort Lauderdale.

Quote from: AaroniusLives on December 16, 2009, 10:12:54 AM

QuoteJax could be the "Venice of the South".

That's already Fort Lauderdale.

We would be the "Venice of the REAL South".  Ft. Lauderadale can be the "Venice of the Pseudo-South", South Florida!  :D  I'm calling the Charlie Daniels Band now to set them straight.  ;D

LOL. You can have the "Real South" moniker, although I've never quite understood the outsized pride...but I don't judge, at least, not out loud!

Actually, Fort Lauderdale is "The Venice of America" 

http://goflorida.about.com/od/fortlauderdale/a/fortlauderdale.htm

Shouldn't New Orleans be "The Venice of America" as in "built below sea level"?

Jax has a long documented history of dreaming big, big ideas, even planning them, and never seeing to real fruition.
First, this will make things boom - then this, no...this...etc.

Jax has a long documented history of dreaming big, big ideas, even planning them, and never seeing to real fruition.
First, this will make things boom - then this, no...this...etc.

My friend at work told me Jacksonville could've/should've had NASA. 

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on December 16, 2009, 05:20:49 PM
Shouldn't New Orleans be "The Venice of America" as in "built below sea level"?

Sorry but New Orleans was NOT built below sea level. When it was first settled, the farms and village stood well above the level of the Mississippi River or the lake. In the 1600-1700's no one had a clue about river and delta hydrology. Delta's work through a continuous system of the river finding a suitable channel then filling in that same channel with silt deposits over dozens of years. When the river becomes too shallow to handle the water volume, it simply shifts to another channel. The older channel becomes a bayou backwater of dead end channels.

By the time the city had already become an important and permanent settlement, the river appeared mature and settled in it's course. It was only natural that people settled all along it's banks, with easy access to the sea or to the inland waterways of the USA. Annual flooding was a way of life but nobody realized that with it, millions of tons of the Prairie's and northwestern mountains were flowing along in the stream.

(http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~smd1436/louisiana%20map.jpg)

As the region grew, the city got bigger and the port more important, nobody understood why the river channel was getting drastically shallower every month. Finally the river bottom was equal to the street levels, there was nothing left to do but encircle the City with flood walls. The whole of the Southern Mississippi is close to suffering a historic channel change to the atchafalaya basin. A federal diversion control dam north of Baton Rouge is completely undermined and has been labeled unstable. WHEN this dam or weir gives way, the entire Mississippi is headed a new direction. The lack of water flushing out any channel in the old riverbed, will be another disaster for Louisiana.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on December 15, 2009, 08:11:03 PM
Per the T-U article on the success of revitalizing the downtown of Greenville, SC, note the attention to parks and pedestrian friendly streets!  Sound familiar?  We need to make the Shipyards and JEA sites public parks with playing fields, jogging and bike paths, riverfront friendly, etc.

If our "planners" would just self examine what they, themselves, demand for living somewhere, and make it happen for downtown, we would be well on our way.  Anyone who looks for a nice place to live is an expert on this subject!  It's common sense, not rocket science.  Sooooo... frustrating that we can't implement something sooooo.... simple.

I think with the Shipyards and JEA sites what needs to happen is that there needs to have some sort of temporary development there. What I mean is rather than let this prime property sit vacant and useless for ages why don't we create some sort of park space that is designed with future development in mind. Nothing terribly elaborate just a space that serves some sort of purpose until we can find someone to really develop the property.

http://www.downtowncolumbus.com/progress/columbus-commons

Quote from: stjr on December 15, 2009, 08:49:43 PM

The canal to replace an alley?  Brilliant.  We could dig canals to connect to Hogan and/or McCoys Creek easily.  Jax could be the "Venice of the South".

I can see it now, ABC, FOX, NBC Sports, all standing by the canal to tape the new "National Sludge Muffin Counting Contest," in Jacksonville''s McCoys - Hogan Canal!

Your team will score 20 extra points if you find one still connected to a pair of shorts. 10 Points for toilet paper... YEP, JUST LIKE VENICE!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote6 ways to help bring downtown Jacksonville back to life

With elements like 'E-Town,' the new ArtWalk and The Jacksonville Landing, there's a base to work with. Here's what experts say remains to be done.

It’s Friday night in the future of downtown Jacksonville.

Take a 15-minute walk that starts on Laura Street, flanked by bustling sidewalk cafes and eye-catching shops. The Barnett Bank building and other long-vacant historic buildings are alive again, filled with residents, offices and stores.

Down the street, The Jacksonville Landing is rebuilt and restocked with stores and restaurants. On the river, pleasure boats are cruising and new marinas are aglow.

Explore the Riverwalk toward The Shipyards, now a fashionable shopping area with luxury-view condos. Where the old courthouse and annex once stood, there are apartment buildings, boutique hotels and a multi-screen theater â€" clustered around a downtown convention center.

Full Article:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-17/story/6_ways_to_help_bring_downtown_jacksonville_back_to_life

Unlike St. Augustine (which came to mind, first), Jacksonville does not have a welcome station that I've ever seen, with brochures advertising what's to do, etc.  We have plenty of material to fill a tourist brochure...there just needs to be a visible location to pick it up, along with maps, trolley tour info, museum info, historic tour info.  Start now;  arrange some trolley tours starting from RAM, going to RAP and Springfield;  have extra docents standing by at the museums (JMOCA and Cummer) on those springtime RAM Saturdays.  Do this for a couple of months to gauge interest, then go from there.  We've got a lot, the City just needs to market it better and let momentum take its course.  Very simple and it could be developed very quickly!  :)

There is a tourist information center on Laura Street, near Hemming Plaza.  Its pretty nice.  There is also a smaller one in the Landing.

Sweeeeeet!  Ok, so 2 more places to advertise the trolley tours, etc...if someone wanted to get from the Landing to RAM, they could take one trolley over from there, if some were arranged.  From there, they could take RAP trolley or Springfield trolley for a tour, or stop at a museum (Karpeles is open on Sat, also?)  These are the logistics that someone with more experience than I could work out, but you see where I'm trying to go with this?  I know there are talented movers and shakers out there and this could happen very easily and quickly in their capable hands - isn't it exciting to realize that?   

This should have gone Downtown.  Funny, private developers get it but city planners don't!  Read the details of this mega-entertainment complex just announced for SJTC below:

(http://jacksonville.com/files/imagecache/meta_headline_photo/editorial/images/additional/106/towncenter121809.jpg)

QuoteNew entertainment complex slated at St. Johns Town Center
Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s Whisky River nightclub opening in March

   * By Roger Bull
   * Story updated at 5:33 PM on Friday, Dec. 18, 2009

An entertainment complex featuring restaurants, bars and an open air concert area is planned to open in the spring at St. Johns Town Center.

The Plaza at Town Center will feature 300,000 square feet of entertainment and retail on 50 acres just east of the Town Center, the project’s developers announced Friday.

Whisky River, a country themed nightclub and music venue owned by Dale Earnhardt Jr. of NASCAR fame, is already under construction and is scheduled to open in March 2010. Whisky River, which opened in downtown Charlotte, N.C., in 2007, features live music by celebrity guests, talented DJs and a mechanical bull.

“NASCAR fans flock to the original Whisky River in Charlotte to experience the replica and atmosphere of Jr.’s own saloon on his property in North Carolina,” the release said.

“I think Jacksonville is a prime market for this kind of establishment,” Earnhardt was quoted as saying.

Whisky River has a Facebook page that announces saying a representative will be in Jacksonville in January, “Looking for the hottest bartenders & servers to join our team.”

BlackFinn American Saloon, which describes itself as a New York style saloon, is slated to open later in the spring.

A spokeswoman for the developers, Landmark Leisure Group and Ben Carter Properties, said that a high-end martini bar, currently unnamed, would be the third venue at the complex. An old-world style Italian eatery is planned, and he developers are talking to seven or eight more restaurants and nightclubs, she said.Retail stores are also planned for the venue which will include outdoor festivals and concerts in the mix that invites patrons to “stay and play,” according to a release..

An artist’s rendering of the planned complex shows businesses on both sides of a walking street that also features a concert space.

Ben Carter Properties was a developer of the orginal St. Johns Town Center in a joint venture with Simon Property Group.

http://jacksonville.com/business/2009-12-18/story/new_entertainment_complex_slated_at_st_johns_town_center

Wow, it looks like they are really trying to corner the market. 

Frankly, I prefer the organic entertainment districts of places like Bay Street over these ersatz Disney-esque creations with their chain venues and faux "celebrity hotspots”.

(http://newsblog.projo.com/archives/trolleyaccident.jpg)
A face not even a mother could love, so damned ugly that they've gone and put it inside police tape for fear it might be the root cause of necrophilia.

Quote from: sandyshoes on December 17, 2009, 05:47:03 PM
Sweeeeeet!  Ok, so 2 more places to advertise the trolley tours, etc...if someone wanted to get from the Landing to RAM, they could take one trolley over from there, if some were arranged.  From there, they could take RAP trolley or Springfield trolley for a tour, or stop at a museum (Karpeles is open on Sat, also?)  These are the logistics that someone with more experience than I could work out, but you see where I'm trying to go with this?  I know there are talented movers and shakers out there and this could happen very easily and quickly in their capable hands - isn't it exciting to realize that?

OH! MY! DEAR GOD!

Somebody LIKES the stupid intelligence insulting PCT Trolley Fleet? Lord forgive me, but this is why some animals eat their young!

CHOKE! warp, buckle, heave, gag, gasp, clasp, pant, falsify, distort, heft up, garble, puff, heft, billow, retch, surge, crumple, heave up, gag, heave, retch,vomit; strain to vomit, choke, cat, heft, fret, honk, barf, sick, heave, chuck, puke, cast, heft up, spue, vomit, purge, regorge, puff, buckle, billow, vomit up, gasp, upchuck, disgorge, suffocate, pant, spew, strangle, regurgitate, throw up, be sick, retch, quip, ...PUKE!

By "By Grabthar's hammer, by the suns of Warvan, JACKSONVILLE TRACTION shall be avenged!, don't allow a perfectly good streetcar route become poisoned by those ridiculous looking PCT Trolleys (PCT=Potato Chip Truck - Think's it's a Trolley) rubber tired, fume belching, trackless, noisy, nauseating, cheap, imitation shoe boxes.

Some of you people might yet drive me to an act of self immolation.

 

OCKLAWAHA

Finally!!

I spent last summer in Jax and when I saw the St. John's Town Center, I was amazed that it's developers could have been so lame-brained to do NOTHING for evening entertainment space there. No movie theater, concert area, nightclubs, nada. Every time I went there I lamented there was NO EVENING hangout spot - in a prime place where it COULD Be.

THIS is something that will take off. Southside, especially the newer section is full of wealthier individuals who will pay to go to NEW and clean entertainment spots. The bulk of them are not going to drive downtown to some crusty, rat-holed refurbished place or east to the trashier beach hangout spots.

The sea of parking lots there is still a waste - parking garage would have made sense. But at least this gives people something to do - and even better - it can be a tourist stop for people going around Jacksonville as well. Smart thinking here.

^^  More like run-of-the-mill, nothing-special, suburban sprawl thinking.  

If Peyton had worked with Sleiman in 2004 to transform the Landing/Laura Street corridor/Bay Street, into the city's entertainment district it would largely be in place now.  It would also boost the city's image just as Kansas City's Power and Light district did for that city.  It would be something unique that could not be replicated elsewhere.  

It would be the 'draw' , the catalyst for an increased residential presence DT, which in turn would increase the presence of 24 hour activity.  That in turn would increase demand for still more goods and services and restaurants DT.

Not to mention that a Downtown entertainment district goes hand-in-glove with Jaguar games, FL-GA, Gator Bowl, ACC Championship games, etc. etc.

See where I am going with this ???????


A HUGE opportunity has been MISSED.  Tony Sleiman now will have full-scale competition AGAINST what he is trying to accomplish with the Landing.  

Way to go Jacksonville !!   Just another example of piss poor leadership with no vision, no creativity and no clue !!!  

Here's the problem...SJTC is central to the community's wealth....downtown isn't....that's why it got built where it did!

The SouthPark and Ballentyne areas of Charlotte each have large concentrations of wealthy residences and each has it's own retail hub, and either could have sited an Epicentre type project.  

They didn't go to either place because Uptown is 'where the action is' whether  it be business or major events (NFL, NBA, Bowl game, festivals, etc. ) and because it was already emerging as the entertainment district for the entire city.  It is also the area that is foremost in the mindset of the entire city.  

 

Quote from: tufsu1 on December 19, 2009, 09:42:52 AM
Here's the problem...SJTC is central to the community's wealth....downtown isn't....that's why it got built where it did!

I disagree. Downtown certainly rolls out as much if not more economic power then Bay Meadows - Town Center - Deerwood areas.

Downtown power is centralized, and Southside economics are on an auto scale, isolated, unsustainable, and scattered all over hells half acre.

Your choice of words is central to our argument too, "Central to the Community's...." Built on an auto scale, Town Center is anything bus a "CENTER" of anything. They didn't even include transit or foul weather shelters, something downtown already has in abundance.

Quote from: rjp2008 on December 18, 2009, 11:47:44 PM
The bulk of them are not going to drive downtown to some crusty, rat-holed refurbished place or east to the trashier beach hangout spots.

The sea of parking lots there is still a waste - parking garage would have made sense. But at least this gives people something to do - and even better - it can be a tourist stop for people going around Jacksonville as well. Smart thinking here.

Guess you don't live in Jacksonville anymore? When was the last time you lived here, 1955? 1960? maybe 1970?
To think downtown or our urban environment is "crusty, rat-holed" and that our Beaches are "trashier hangout spots," speaks more to your lack of a recent downtown experience then to Town Center's success.

On these cool winter and spring days, there is scarcely a prettier place on earth then downtown Jacksonville.

Quote from: vicupstate on December 19, 2009, 08:22:51 AM
^^  More like run-of-the-mill, nothing-special, suburban sprawl thinking.   

A HUGE opportunity has been MISSED.  Tony Sleiman now will have full-scale competition AGAINST what he is trying to accomplish with the Landing. 

Way to go Jacksonville !!   Just another example of piss poor leadership with no vision, no creativity and no clue !!! 

Just like our BRT lines, it's  more of the same, "JTA competes with self," or "downtown duplicated," type story's.
Even so, nothing can come close to a Landing freed from under the curse of bus only transit or no parking. Chock it up as just one more Peyton Pissing Contest = Failure. It's NOT A FAILURE OF DOWNTOWN or the LANDING.

Downtown is truly urban, Town Center is not.
Downtown is far more scenic, Town Center is not.
Downtown has history and sense of place, Town Center does not.
Downtown is central to all of Duval County, Town Center is not.
Downtown is the hub of urban mass transit, Town Center is not.
Downtown has the incredible river, Town Center does not.
Downtown has dozens of other attractions, Town Center does not.
Downtown has HQ of several fortune 500 companies, Town Center does not.
Downtown and surroundings are all walkable, Town Center beyond the main street, is not.

QuoteWay to go Jacksonville !!   Just another example of piss poor leadership with no vision, no creativity and no clue !!!  

AMEN BROTHER! AMEN!

OCKLAWAHA

Finehoe I agree 100%. All the new place is missing is the Disney gift shops. (Of course it hasn't been built yet... who's to say they WON'T have themed gift shops every 20 feet?)

Imagine this project in LaVilla or Brooklyn tied to Ock's "Ray Charles Night Club."  Think of all the tourists we could have pulled off of I-95 in addition to the giant boost to Downtown.

Quote from: Bativac on December 19, 2009, 12:18:05 PM
Finehoe I agree 100%. All the new place is missing is the Disney gift shops. (Of course it hasn't been built yet... who's to say they WON'T have themed gift shops every 20 feet?)

LOL.  I guarantee that Whiskey River joint will have a gift shop.

I knew it:  http://whiskyriver.shop.musictoday.com/Default.aspx

:D

Gee, Ock;  once again I seem to be a target of your insults.  You strike me as pretty full of yourself.

This entertainment complex already physically exists (at least a good portion of it).  Its the east side of the Markets at Town Center strip mall (the one directly behind Costco).  It appears that they plan to put restaurants and bars into the empty strip mall retail bays.  Whiskey River is going to an existing retail bay (the building on the right side of photo) and Black Finn is constructing a building in one of the nearby outparcels.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/504007436_buNnX-M.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,7046.msg118471.html#msg118471

Took my parents to the Riverwalks and both of them had never seen Jacksonville before. Funny thing is that the words rat hole or crusty never came up. They both thought it was nice for the most part. Downtown is nice as it is. It just has so much potential to grow and become something great. Positive, can-do thinking is key.

Buckeye, I think you hit the nail on the head.  It's what you DON"T see (i.e. "so much potential") that has so many of us on edge.  We are "positive" to the point that we have greater expectations for our City than our "settle for second or third best" city leaders (that includes the independent authorities, commissions, and state and federal legislative delegations).  They are the ones who lack the "positive, can-do thinking" we all agree is key to improving our community.  Hopefully, MJ can foment a movement that contributes to new kind of leadership going forward.

It would be easier to turn St. Johns towncenter into downtown.

It would be pretty difficult to move the river.  However, SJTC is doing what it was meant and designed to do.  That is to become a popular regional shopping center.

Quote from: sandyshoes on December 19, 2009, 04:49:20 PM
Gee, Ock;  once again I seem to be a target of your insults.  You strike me as pretty full of yourself.

No insult intended, just my usual sarcastic comedy, didn't mean to upset you but the PCT touches a delicate cord.

Full of myself? Not at all SandyShoes, I just hate the fact that JTA has sold a cheap, plastic imitation to an unsuspecting public that has gone 2-3 generations without mass transit. It's the mass transit equal of handing your two year old a pygmy rattlesnake and telling him/her it's a jump rope. Not just a lie, but a dangerous lie.

The JTA and COJ, are feeling the heat from MJ and the streetcar stormtroopers working with the old hippie. The more we push for REAL streetcars, the more they have ordered and expanded the stupid PCT "Trolleys". The PCT cars have been shown in several test cases as having NO RELATIONSHIP to the ridership of real streetcars. So the other lie that somehow these things will prove the need for real streetcars is completely false. They also don't "build ridership," contrary to the supposed "experience" with the Beaches all summer or Riverside-Landing lunch runs. Neither these runs nor the downtown has ever been tested with a simple electric shuttle bus, a low floor circulator, a true trolley bus, vintage bus, or even Jitney Van. It wouldn't matter to Joe Surfer if the thing looked like a rolling johnny-on-the-job, as long as it got them to the next wave.

So you see, it isn't about you or me, it's about transit. Excellent Transit, no seconds, take no prisoners good transit. Glad to have you join me and the various sections of the City that are tossing the flaming shots at our sorry excuse for transit.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on December 20, 2009, 03:37:45 PM
It would be pretty difficult to move the river.  However, SJTC is doing what it was meant and designed to do.  That is to become a popular regional shopping center.

Well it might be easier to dig up new canal and create a river next to mall then to turn downtown into urban zone where people will actually live and be.Seems like none except people on this board are interested in urban living.

What happens to SJTC in 15-20 years when the area around it ages and the newest regional shopping center opens?  Is there any reason to believe it won't become the next Gateway or Regency?

Maybe its me but SJTC is no different that any new mall in anyplace USA.  Indianapolis, Orlando, Charlotte, Austin, DC, etc. all have suburban malls just as popular as SJTC and yet they still have vibrant DTs.  Regardless of what happens at SJTC, DT can still be vibrant.  Riverside, San Marco, Murray Hill and Springfield prove that a good segment of the population values urban living.  All DT needs is for city hall to stop hindering it.

You really think Peyton who makes money selling gas will let people of Jacksonville rather walk then drive???
Heck they even mismanage traffic lights signals so you can sit at red light and burn more gas instead of moving quicker.
Its in their interest for you to live in suburbs,spending money on maintaining house and your precious grass,driving your car to mall where you will spend your hard earned money on some stupid crap that you will regret later or will break prematurely.
Its not in their interest for you to live efficiently.Urban living is not good for business and profit.

you're right Bostech....the folks at Gate could care less about Jacksonville's future  ;)

Unless the density of the town center doubles, I don't see it lasting.  You already have to get in your car and drive from Bento at the front, to Barnes & Noble which is in the middle.  Once you're in the car, what is to prevent you from driving elsewhere in the southside or to another part of town.  Either SJTC needs to get fixed transit and build up, or I see it dying a slow (potentially very slow, but still) death to an eventual downtown full of residents and destinations.

I don't think SJTC has to go the route of gateway look at the O.P. mall it is packed all the time and isn't flashy or new.

how about the Avenues then....like Regency, it ha been affected by the opening of SJTC.

Orange Park doesn't have any real competition....yet.

Oh it can go down I just do not think it is a forgone conclusion. It depends on if shopping centers keep going up faster than demands.

 

QuoteI see it dying a slow (potentially very slow, but still) death to an eventual downtown full of residents and destinations.

The slow death will more likely be a result of the next 'new' shopping destination, that in all liklyhood, will be in northern St. John's County.  When Nocatee fills out, SJTC will become the 'new' Baymeadows.  

I think downtown needs something that will draw people...something that appeals to everyone, especially the suburban majority. would love to see a D&B or something like that. it may not be the most "progressive"...but honestly we're talking about Jacksonvillians.  :-\

I just don't understand why the vast majority of Jacksonville locals want downtown to fail. It just doesn't make sense, I live in Springfield, Its great here. Most of the people moving in are from out of town. and love it as well.
IMHO The local population is missing out

The WORLDS FAIR would bring us international and national attention for a 5-6 month season, then, leave us with infrastructure for a lifetime of great uses.

Done right, it can be a huge boost. Spokane in 1974 was the smallest town to ever host the fair and it exploded with growth after the exposure. Chocking up an 18.9% increase in 10 years. Just one of several THINK BIG successes.

OCKLAWAHA

Here come the Monday morning quarterbacks from the do-not-lead City Council.  A bunch of worthless, do-nothing sound bites for the T-U.  Maybe, if they lack for ideas, they could find dozens in this thread along with some thoughtful discussion.

Closest on-target comment is by Warren Jones who zeros in on the lack of leadership.

Biggest "laugher" is double-talking Richard Clark who offers the usual pandering-to-the-voters low taxes while having a first class educated work force and non-specific investments in Downtown.  Blames the economy (that explains 50 years of neglect?) and then says we should follow the "model" of the big cities up north.  And, just what part of that "model" will you, Mr. Clark, support following in your LEADERSHIP role as Council president?

QuoteJacksonville City Council wants spark to energize downtown
But its president says no matter the dream, magic comes down to money.

   * By Tia Mitchell
   * Story updated at 10:46 AM on Tuesday, Dec. 22, 2009

Don Redman spent Thanksgiving in the hospital, recovering from a nasty bike accident on the Southbank Riverwalk that left the City Council member with a broken leg â€" and a new cause.

Redman says the warped, wood-planked path needs an overhaul to bring it up to the standard set by the pedestrian- and cyclist-friendly Northbank Riverwalk.

“I feel like if you don’t have a really great downtown area, you’re not going to have a city that you can show off to anybody,” said Redman, whose district includes the largest chunk of downtown and parts of the Southside.

An overhaul of the Southbank Riverwalk has languished on downtown’s project wish list for years, even though the City Council controls a billion-dollar budget and capital spending.

Several council members, responding to The Times-Union’s recent series on the troubled state of downtown, said more needs to be done â€" from bringing back the Downtown Development Authority to solving the homeless problem.

For years, city incentives and resources have been directed at development in high-growth suburban areas, but council members are now sharing ideas about how best to move ahead with downtown revitalization.

Councilman Warren Jones believes that it’s time for the city to redirect its focus back on downtown. For too long suburban sprawl has consumed the bulk resources, he said, draining funding and other support from the aging urban core.

“Every neighborhood is going to get old at one time,” said Jones, who represents neighborhoods just west of downtown. “Even the ones that we’re running to now. So the problems are going to follow you. We have got to start investing more dollars in our core city areas.”

Jones blames a lack of attention from city leaders.

“It’s less about money and more about the focus and the priority of working with companies that are looking to develop a project,” he said.

The Downtown Development Authority should be re-established as an arm of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission to focus solely on downtown, Jones said. The authority, a powerful force in many cities with vibrant downtowns, was eliminated by Mayor John Peyton in 2006 during a cost-cutting reorganization approved by the council.

Council President Richard Clark said the focus for improving the core should not just be on luring the next Fortune 500 company.

“We’re always going to be out there working as hard as we can to bring the next Fidelity, but what we can’t forget about is that we need to encourage the Dalton Agencies of the world and the Perdues  [Office Interiors] of the world.”

Companies like those, with 50 or 60 employees apiece, don’t generally require incentives to locate downtown, Clark said, but still contribute heavily to the local economy.

Councilman Kevin Hyde, one of five at-large members, wants the city to do a better job of attracting the type of small business that makes downtown a destination for visitors, such as stores and restaurants.

Downtown Jacksonville has one of the smallest retail footprints in the country. “Getting those businesses,” Hyde said, would draw “people to downtown, regardless if they’re ever going to live there.”

A candidate for mayor in 2011, Hyde said developers had a high interest in downtown several years ago, but the recession caused that spark to fade. He believes the council should work on setting money aside to help finance retail projects.

Councilman Clay Yarborough said existing programs to help build up downtown are good, but he questioned the idea of spending more on the city core in the current economy. He opposes the mayor’s plan, approved by council, to spend roughly $30 million renovating Metropolitan Park to connect it with the Riverwalk.

“The project sounds great, but this year? That much? Not right now,” he said.

Yarborough said the constituents he talks to don’t have the same fervor for investing in downtown that he hears at City Hall. He considers it a “worthy pursuit” whose time may not have arrived.

Clark said any talk about making downtown a priority will always circle back to money, or the lack thereof.

“Right now, No. 1 on our list is really the finances of the city and what the economy has done to our government,” he said. “Downtown is really a direct reflection of where we are in the economy.”

When the economy was booming, downtown projects were sprouting and attracting new businesses, he said, and now the city will have to work to recapture that magic.

Besides spending, Clark says the council also has a responsibility to keep the tax rate low and ensure businesses interested in downtown have an educated workforce to draw from. He also believes Jacksonville should follow models set by New York City, Baltimore, Washington D.C., and Chicago.

While the crime rate in downtown Jacksonville is relatively low, critics often cite the number of homeless people congregating at Hemming Plaza and along the waterfront. Records show there are approximately 1,500 homeless people living downtown, in shelters and on the streets, compared with 2,600 people living in apartments and condos.

Clark said investing in downtown is essential if Jacksonville wants to reach its full potential.

“Every great city in America has a vibrant downtown,” he said.

http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-22/story/jacksonville_city_council_wants_spark_to_energize_downtown

Was looking for an existing thread regarding employment levels Downtown.  Didn't find one among the top threads but did find this from 11 years ago and thought I would put it back out there for current discussion.  Doesn't seem much has changed over that time and we are still talking about the same issues.  (Note, it appears some replies are missing as some posters reference replies I didn't see.  May have been ones by Mr. Dare, but not sure.)

To my original point, Downtown is going to lose 375 good "Downtown" jobs with Stein Mart packing it in on the Southbank.  I don't see anyone touting this loss and how it might be made up elsewhere.  I recall there was concern a few months ago about TIAA cutbacks too.  Other than FIS, Fidelity and Black Knight, all mostly in Brooklyn, are there any notable employment gains elsewhere in Downtown?  If we follow other "high rise" downtowns, after COVID's work-at-home changes, will our Downtown suffer as well? 

Note this article about major NYC doldrums in the NY Times and possible permanent impacts on retail and more:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/nyregion/nyc-economy-chain-stores.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/nyregion/nyc-economy-chain-stores.html)

Vystar is the biggest thing going on the northbank right now.  Otherwise I don't know of anything that will really move the needle.

Depressing. This thread is from the time when I was first moving back to Jax...so much promise and excitement and anticipation.

Berkman 2 was just on a temporary pause and Mooneyhan was a possibility.