Let’s not discuss here whether they are good or bad for the neighborhood. Let’s also try not to discuss SPAR. Let’s also try not to increase your post count and contribute nothing of substance. We already have other threads to do that. Think all that is possible ?
I am trying to get the discussion started.
Lets take as example a house in Springfield. Say the property use is 0800 MULTI-FAMILY UNITS 2-9. The use description is APTS 10 UNITS OR LESS F. The building itself is either a triplex or a quadplex. The building is not on the list of legal grandfathered in rooming houses. No DBPR license exists. Neighbors notice that frequently people walk by and ask where the halfway house is. It turns out they are referring to the building described above.
Do you think this building is a rooming house/halfway house because this is what the renters or potential renters refer to it?
Should anyone question the legitimacy of such a place?
How should one go about checking compliance with existing zoning overlay?
Is the law specific enough to determine with certainty what this house is ?Discussions about zoning overlay, rooming houses, boarding houses, apartments have been held in various places. I am trying to summarize the facts and legal definitions here in one place. Sorry for the lengthy post, but the information is rather complex.
Quote
Sec. 656.368. Springfield Historic Zoning Districts.
Springfield Historic Zoning Districts include the following:
I. Residential Medium Density-Springfield (RMD-S) District.
(a) Permitted uses and structures.
(1) Single-family dwellings.
(2) New two-family dwellings meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in this Section.
(3) Original use two-family dwellings.
(4) Original use multiple-family dwellings. Such dwellings cannot include more units than were within the structure at the time of construction.
(5) Community residential homes of six or fewer residents meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4 of the Zoning Code and the special use criteria set forth in Section 656.369.
(6) Housing for the elderly meeting the criteria for special uses set forth in Section 656.369.
(7) Family day care homes meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4 of the Zoning Code.
(8) Foster care homes.
(9) Essential services, including water, sewer, gas, telephone, radio, television and electric, meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4 of the Zoning Code.
(10) Churches, including a rectory or similar use, meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4.
(11) Neighborhood parks, pocket parks, playgrounds or recreational structures which serve or support a neighborhood or several adjacent neighborhoods, meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4 of the Zoning Code.
(12) Bed and breakfast establishments meeting the performance standards and development criteria set forth in Part 4 of the Zoning Code.
(b) Permitted accessory uses and structures.
(1) Interior apartments in connection with single-family, owner-occupied properties, meeting the Springfield performance standards and development criteria set forth in Section 656.369.
(2) Free-standing garages.
(3) One free-standing garage apartment in connection with single-family, owner-occupied properties, meeting the Springfield performance standards and development criteria set forth in Section 656.369.
(4) Original use garage apartments contributing structures only.
(5) Home occupations meeting the Springfield performance standards and development criteria set forth in Section 656.369.
(6) Pay phones meeting the Springfield supplemental standards and development criteria set forth in Section 656.369.1.
(7) Satellite dishes meeting the Springfield supplemental standards and development criteria set forth in 656.369.1.
(8) Vending machines meeting the Springfield supplemental standards and development criteria set forth in Section 656.369.1.
(c) Permissible uses by exception.
(1) Historic use two-family dwellings, with a COA also required after granting of exception.
(2) Historic use multiple-family dwellings, with a COA also required after granting of exception.
Quote
Sec. 656.369. (g)
special uses: residential treatment facilities, rooming houses, emergency shelter homes, group care homes, and community residential homes of seven or more residents
Sec. 656.1601. Definitions.
Quote
Bed and breakfast establishment means a building or part thereof, other than a motel or hotel, originally constructed for residential use and located in an area of historical significance, as designated by the appropriate state or federal authority or as approved by the City Council and Historic Landmarks Commission of Jacksonville, where sleeping with a daily charge (no monthly rentals) and with the service of breakfast prepared by the operator or owner included in the daily charge and which also serves as the primary residence of the operator or owner thereof.
Boardinghouse means a residential facility building where meals are regularly prepared and served to the residents only for compensation and where food is placed upon the table family-style without service or ordering of individual portions from a menu. A boardinghouse shall not be deemed to include a hotel, motel, group care home, family care home, recovery home, residential treatment facility, emergency shelter, emergency shelter home or nursing home.
Community residential home means a dwelling unit licensed to serve clients of CFS, which provides a living environment for up to 14 residents who operate as the functional equivalent of a family, including such supervision and care by supportive staff as may be necessary to meet the physical, emotional and social needs of the residents. The residents of the community residential home are not to be related to the owner/operator by law, blood, marriage or adoption and shall be limited to those persons defined as "residents" in F.S. §419.001(1)(d).
Group care home means a facility occupied by seven or more persons whether operated for profit or not, which provides, for a period exceeding 24 hours, one or more personal services for persons who required these personal services and are not related to the owner or administrator by law, blood, marriage or adoption and not in foster care. The personal services, in addition to housing and food services, may include personal assistance with bathing, dressing, housekeeping, adult supervision, emotional security and other related services but may not include medical services.
Residential treatment facility means a facility other than a hospital or nursing home, having one or more supervisors residing on the premises and providing board, lodging, medication and other treatment and counseling for persons progressing from relatively intensive treatment for criminal conduct, delinquency, mental or emotional illness, alcoholism, drug addiction or similar conditions, as well as providing relatively intensive diagnostic or therapeutic services for alcoholism, drug abuse, mental illness, emotional problems, developmental disabilities or similar conditions for its residents. A residential treatment facility shall not be deemed to include a nursing home, hospital, group care home, or emergency shelter home. Nothing shall prevent a residential treatment facility from having out patients. The residents of the residential treatment facility are generally intending to return to full normal participation in community life.
Rooming houses means a building in which sleeping accommodations are offered to the public where rentals are for a period of a week or longer and occupancy is generally by residents rather than transient.
The City's definition of "apartment" vs. "rooming unit" can be found here (Sec. 518.111. Definitions):
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Environmental+and+Compliance/Municipal+Code+Compliance/Chapter+518.htm
Quote
Apartment means a room or a suite of rooms occupied or which is intended or designed to be occupied as the residence of one individual, family or household for housekeeping purposes.
Apartment house means a building which is designed, built, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied or which actually is occupied as the residence of more than two families living independently of each other and doing their own cooking in the building, and shall include flats and apartments.
Rooming house means a dwelling containing one or more rooming units or one or more dormitory rooms.
Rooming unit means a room or group of rooms forming a single habitable unit which is used or intended to be used for living and sleeping but not for cooking or eating purposes.
509.242 defines a boardinghouse as subcategory of roominghouse.
Quote
§ 509.242(1)(f), Florida Statutes: Roominghouse.--A roominghouse is any public lodging establishment that may not be classified as a hotel, motel, resort condominium, nontransient apartment, bed and breakfast inn, or transient apartment under this section. A roominghouse includes, but is not limited to, a boardinghouse.
Rule 61C-1.002(4)(b), Florida Administrative Code: Nontransient establishments nontransient establishments are classified as nontransient apartments and rooming houses as defined in section 509.242, FS, that have more than four units collectively and that are rented for periods of at least 30 days or 1 calendar month, whichever is less, and that are not advertised or held out to the public as places regularly rented for periods of less than 1 calendar month. Rooming houses do not include any establishment exempted pursuant to section 509.013(4), FS.
Rule 61C-1.002(4)(a), Florida Administrative Code: Transient establishments ââ,¬â€œ transient establishments are classified as hotels, motels, transient apartments and rooming houses as defined in section 509.242, FS, which are rented or leased to guests by an operator whose intention is that such guests' occupancy will be temporary.
Florida Building code (2004 , Section 403.1 "Minimum Fixtures" http://ecodes.iccsafe.org/icce/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=icc:florida_plumbing ):
QuoteFor an Apartment house, 1 water closet, one bathtub/shower and one kitchen sink is required per dwelling unit. Boarding houses require only one watercloset for 10 residents (and only one sink).
Who needs a license ?
Anyone planning to operate a public lodging establishment in Florida will need a license from the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Hotels and Restaurants. According to section 509.013 (4), Florida Statutes (FS):
Quote
(a) "Public lodging establishment" means any unit, group of units, dwelling, building, or group of buildings within a single complex of buildings, which is rented to guests more than three times in a calendar year for periods of less than 30 days or one calendar month, whichever is less, or which is advertised or held out to the public as a place regularly rented to guests. License classifications of public lodging establishments, and the definitions therefor, are set out in s. 509.242, Florida Statutes. For the purpose of licensure, the term does not include condominium common elements as defined in s. 718.103, Florida Statutes.
(b) The following are excluded from the definition in paragraph (a):
1. Any dormitory or other living or sleeping facility maintained by a public or private school, college, or university for the use of students, faculty, or visitors;
2. Any hospital, nursing home, sanitarium, assisted living facility, or other similar place;
3. Any place renting four rental units or less, unless the rental units are advertised or held out to the public to be places that are regularly rented to transients;
4. Any unit or group of units in a condominium, cooperative, or timeshare plan and any individually or collectively owned one-family, two-family, three-family, or four-family dwelling house or dwelling unit that is rented for periods of at least 30 days or one calendar month, whichever is less, and that is not advertised or held out to the public as a place regularly rented for periods of less than one calendar month, provided that no more than four rental units within a single complex of buildings are available for rent;
5. Any migrant labor camp or residential migrant housing permitted by the Department of Health under ss. 381.008-381.00895, Florida Statutes; and
6. Any establishment inspected by the Department of Health and regulated by chapter 513, Florida Statutes.
http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/hr/forms/documents/application_packet_for_lodging_license.pdf (http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/hr/forms/documents/application_packet_for_lodging_license.pdf)
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?Mode=View%20Statutes&Submenu=1&Tab=statutes (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?Mode=View%20Statutes&Submenu=1&Tab=statutes)
§ 509.242(1)(a), Florida Statutes:
Hotel.--A hotel is any public lodging establishment containing sleeping room accommodations for 25 or more guests and providing the services generally provided by a hotel and recognized as a hotel in the community in which it is situated or by the industry.
§ 509.242(1)(b), Florida Statutes:
Motel.--A motel is any public lodging establishment which offers rental units with an exit to the outside of each rental unit, daily or weekly rates, offstreet parking for each unit, a central office on the property with specified hours of operation, a bathroom or connecting bathroom for each rental unit, and at least six rental units, and which is recognized as a motel in the community in which it is situated or by the industry.
§ 509.242(1)(d), Florida Statutes:
Nontransient apartment.--A nontransient apartment is any apartment building in which 75 percent or more of the units are available for rent to nontransient tenants.
Nontransient establishments are classified as nontransient apartments and rooming houses as defined in section 509.242, FS, that have more than four units collectively and that are rented for periods of at least 30 days or one calendar month, whichever is less, and that are not advertised or held out to the public as places regularly rented for periods of less than one calendar month. Rooming houses do not include any establishment exempted pursuant to section 509.013(4), FS. (Rule 61C-1.002(4)(b), Florida Administrative Code)
§ 509.242(1)(e), Florida Statutes:
Transient apartment.--A transient apartment is any apartment building in which units are advertised or held out to the public as available for transient occupancy.
Transient establishments are classified as hotels, motels, transient apartments and rooming houses as defined in section 509.242, FS, which are rented or leased to guests by an operator whose intention is that such guests' occupancy will be temporary. (Rule 61C-1.002(4)(a), Florida Administrative Code)
§ 509.242(1)(f), Florida Statutes:
Roominghouse.--A roominghouse is any public lodging establishment that may not be classified as a hotel, motel, resort condominium, nontransient apartment, bed and breakfast inn, or transient apartment under this section. A roominghouse includes, but is not limited to, a boardinghouse.
§ 509.242(1)(h), Florida Statutes:
Bed and breakfast inn.--A bed and breakfast inn is a family home structure, with no more than 15 sleeping rooms, which has been modified to serve as a transient public lodging establishment, which provides the accommodation and meal services generally offered by a bed and breakfast inn, and which is recognized as a bed and breakfast inn in the community in which it is situated or by the hospitality industry.
§ 509.242(1)(c), Florida Statutes:
Resort condominium.--A resort condominium is any unit or group of units in a condominium, cooperative, or timeshare plan which is rented more than three times in a calendar year for periods of less than 30 days or 1 calendar month, whichever is less, or which is advertised or held out to the public as a place regularly rented for periods of less than 30 days or 1 calendar month, whichever is less.
§ 509.242(1)(g), Florida Statutes:
Resort dwelling.--A resort dwelling is any individually or collectively owned one-family, two-family, three-family, or four-family dwelling house or dwelling unit which is rented more than three times in a calendar year for periods of less than 30 days or 1 calendar month, whichever is less, or which is advertised or held out to the public as a place regularly rented for periods of less than 30 days or 1 calendar month, whichever is less.
License types:
Hotel (2001/HOTL)
Nontransient Apartment (2003/NAPT)
Nontransient Roominghouse (2004/NRMH)
Motel (2002/MOTL)
Transient Apartment (2003/TAPT)
Transient Roominghouse (2004/TRMH)
Bed and Breakfast Inn (2005/BNB)
The letters of the license type are reflected on the DBPR site which shows info about licensed facilities.
https://www.myfloridalicense.com/wl11.asp?mode=2&search=LicTyp&SID=&brd=&typ= (https://www.myfloridalicense.com/wl11.asp?mode=2&search=LicTyp&SID=&brd=&typ=)
Additionally, any discussion about rooming houses, what constitutes one, also needs to include a discussion about civil liberties of the inhabitant.
The house listed above does not belong to me and Joe although I know which one you are referring to. The department of hotel/motel was there for an inspection. The owner took the inspector, Moses, through and showed him the place. Moses agreed that it was not a rooming house and closed the complaint. Code enforcement showed up and did an inspection and closed the complaint. This all happened back in 2007.
At some point, the civil liberties of the inhabitants needs to be protected. The facility has been inspected, passed, and the case has been closed. Just how many inspections does a place need.
All of our houses have been inspected, repeatedly, by code enforcement. At some point, civil liberties of the inhabitants needs to be protected. Why? The constitution guarantees it.
Like it or not, the houses have been inspected, passed and closed.
People call "sober houses" halfway houses. It generally means a house that you are not allowed to drink and drug in.
You also need these definitions:
QuoteDwelling, one-family or single-family means a building containing only one dwelling unit. The term is not to be construed as including recreational vehicles, tents, houseboats or other forms of temporary or portable house. Manufactured homes and modular homes which comply with the provisions of Subpart C, Part 4 of the Zoning Code are considered single-family dwellings. For the purposes of this Zoning Code, row houses, townhouses, condominiums, cooperative apartments or other form of dwelling units which are not in individual detached buildings meeting all the requirements of a single-family dwelling shall not be construed to be single-family dwellings. A building in which a room or other portion is rented to or occupied by someone other than a part of the family shall not be considered to be a single-family dwelling.
Dwelling unit means a room or rooms connected together constituting a separate, independent housekeeping establishment for a family, for owner occupancy or for rental or lease on a weekly, monthly or longer basis, physically separated from other rooms or dwelling units which may be in the same structure and containing sleeping facilities and one kitchen.
QuoteFamily means one or more persons occupying a single dwelling unit; provided, that, unless all members are related by law, blood, adoption or marriage, no family shall contain over five persons. Domestic servants employed on the premises may be housed on the premises without being counted as a separate or additional family or families. The term family shall not be construed to mean a fraternity, sorority, club, monastery or convent, rooming or boardinghouse, emergency shelter, emergency shelter home, group care home, residential treatment facility, recovery home or nursing home, foster care home or family care home.
Additionally, if you look at a legal triplex, it is simply three single dwelling units attached that can have three separate families living in it. As up to five unrelated adults can live together as a "family", up to five unrelated adults may live in a single family home or unit.
You also need this from the overlay:
Quote(4) New rooming houses are not permitted. Existing rooming houses shall be identified by one or more of the following existing conditions, each of which shall create a rebuttable presumption that a building is a rooming house:
(A) Signs that indicate rooms, beds, or living spaces for rent;
(B) Interior locks, partitions, hasps, appliances such as electric fry pans, toaster ovens, refrigerators, etc.;
(C) Individual storage of food;
(D) Alphabetical, numeric, or other labeling of bedrooms or living areas;
(E) Alterations to structures which enhance or facilitate its use as a rooming house.
While this mentions "existing rooming houses†shall be identified by these characteristics, I also know that this is also part of the criteria used to determine if a complaint that a building is being used as a rooming house is valid or not. By and by, though it says "individual storage of foodâ€, I wouldn't put much stock in that one as then a son or daughter could not have a small refrigerator in their room nor could a wife, for instance, that is vegetarian keep a separate food supply from the non-vegetarian husband. Same with most of the listed appliances.
What code enforcement is more likely to look for is whether the common areas, like living rooms, dining rooms, kitchens and family rooms, are indeed set up and used for the intended purpose. In other words, can the “family†members sit and watch TV together, eat together and cook together if they so chose. You can not require this behavior in a “unrelated family†anymore than you can in a “blood related†one, but the presumption of the possibility of acting together as a family unit must be there.
As to those who call a place a halfway house, you can not determine that a structure is a halfway house as defined based on a hearsay comment anymore than you could truly consider a 1000 SF home that a man calls his “castle†a true castle by definition. The laws specifies what constitutes a halfway house and so that is the only way to determine if a house fits that definition.
If you have an issue with a house, and an attempt at talking to the owner about the houses fails, then you certainly have a right to call either the licensing body that would license a halfway house or the COJ code enforcement department. However, I do believe that once one or both of those parties have inspected and stated that the house is legal, then it must be accepted as legal.
Overall, there must be some common sense applied. If a place is full of bad neighbors, then there is a process, even if it is not very effective, to handle that. Trying to prove a place is an illegal use just to get rid of people one does not like should not be an acceptable method of handling the problem.
Quote from: sheclown on October 23, 2009, 08:33:01 PM
Additionally, any discussion about rooming houses, what constitutes one, also needs to include a discussion about civil liberties of the inhabitant.
The house listed above does not belong to me and Joe although I know which one you are referring to. The department of hotel/motel was there for an inspection. The owner took the inspector, Moses, through and showed him the place. Moses agreed that it was not a rooming house and closed the complaint. Code enforcement showed up and did an inspection and closed the complaint. This all happened back in 2007.
At some point, the civil liberties of the inhabitants needs to be protected. The facility has been inspected, passed, and the case has been closed. Just how many inspections does a place need.
As no specific property was mentioned, the arguments miss the point. The questions asked were not answered.
Quote from: strider on October 23, 2009, 11:08:42 PM
As to those who call a place a halfway house, you can not determine that a structure is a halfway house as defined based on a hearsay comment anymore than you could truly consider a 1000 SF home that a man calls his “castle†a true castle by definition. The laws specifies what constitutes a halfway house and so that is the only way to determine if a house fits that definition.
Please quote the specific law which defines a halfway house as I could not find such law.
Let me rewrite the paragraph for you…also, you "labeled" the house a “half-way house†in your example and I just continued it. Pretty much the same statement I made can be used for an supposed rooming house, boarding house, ETC.
QuoteAs to those who call a place a halfway house, you can not determine that a structure is a halfway house as defined based on a hearsay comment anymore than you could truly consider a 1000 SF home that a man calls his “castle†a true castle by definition. The laws specifies what constitutes a “halfway house†in some manor, though the actual term “half-way house†may not be used and so that is the only way to determine if a house fits that definition.
To explain, let’s first look at an accepted definition of a half-way house: (wepidia)
The purpose of a halfway house, also called a recovery house or sober house, is generally to allow people to begin the process of reintegration with society, while still providing monitoring and support; this is generally believed to reduce the risk of recidivism or relapse when compared to a release directly into society. Some halfway houses are meant solely for reintegration of persons who have been recently released from prison or jail, others are meant for people with chronic mental health disorders, and most others are for people with substance abuse issues. These sober halfway houses are many times voluntary places of residence and many of the residents may have no criminal record whatsoever. There is often opposition from neighborhoods where halfway houses attempt to locate
Most programs in the United States make a distinction between a halfway house and a sober/recovery house. A halfway house has an active rehabilitation treatment program run throughout the day, where the residents receive intensive individual and group counseling for their substance abuse while they establish a sober support network, secure new employment, and find new housing. Residents stay for one to six months. Their stay is usually financed by their behavioral health insurance. Whereas at places labeled as recovery houses or soberhouses for those with substance abuse problems, residents are only asked to remain sober and comply with a minimal recovery program. Residents pay for their own stay.
In the United States, a halfway house may also refer to a place where one stops midway through a journey.By looking at the COJ codes, we do not see half-way house actually defined anywhere, at least performing a search for the term “half-way house†within the city code yields no results and I have never seen the term defined within the code myself. We do know, however, that the facilities accepted here in Springfield are licensed by both the DOH and the DBPR. These licenses, and I am not bothering to pull up that information as it has been posted many times before, vary between facilities, but basically, one of the accepted “half-way houses†is licensed as a rooming house with a commercial kitchen license. This is the same licensing arrangement that a boarding house would have. Therefore we can assume that for licensing purposes, the state of Florida looks at a “half-way house†as something close to a boarding house. If the state is told that a house is an illegal “half-way houseâ€, then the inspector would compare the accused houses to this licensing standard.
The DOH is different and seem to only be concerned with the commercial kitchen side of things, though some of what I have read can be interpreted to include the residential side of the facility as well, the DOH themselves does not seem to use that interpretation. Therefore, unless there is a commercial kitchen on site, the DOH probably would not be concerned and an illegal “half-way house complaint.†Which would throw the complaint back to the code enforcement people and the standards I set forth in my previous post.
Perhaps it is time to look at the questions you posted and do a set of answers:
QuoteDo you think this building is a rooming house/halfway house because this is what the renters or potential renters refer to it?
No, renters or potential renters can call it anything they like. A legal determination is needed to finally define what the house is.
QuoteShould anyone question the legitimacy of such a place?
I think first one needs to ask themselves the question, is this house posing a problem for me? Are they good or bad neighbors? In other words, each individual should make this decision for themselves. Like in any situation involving neighbors, the owner should be approached first. If that does not satisfy your issues, then your options are the DBPR or the COJ code enforcement.
QuoteHow should one go about checking compliance with existing zoning overlay?
Technically, it is not a neighbors job to check the compliance of any other persons house or business. However, that being said, COJ uses (as most cities do..) a complaint based system so one could interpret that to mean you have the right to check on that compliance. I will tell you spouting the codes to the enforcement people is not the way to handle it. If you think a house is not in compliance, then turn it in and allow the city to do it’s job.
QuoteIs the law specific enough to determine with certainty what this house is ?
Yes, to the degree the writers of the law believe it had to be. Actual and legally licensed “half-wayâ€, rooming and boarding houses exist within the city of Jacksonville so we can see that the laws have indeed identified those facilities as what they are. A reasonable criteria has been set, used and proven to work to identify those facilities.
One question that seems to be missing is:
If a house has been turned in and found to be legal by the various licensing and enforcement agencies, and I do not like the determination of those agencies, what should I do to change that outcome? The answer to that question is nothing, unless reasonable new evidence comes to light that something has changed within the house in question to indicate that the use has changed since the last enforcement investigation. This new evidence must be real and not hearsay or you are simply wasting the tax payers money and the city ‘s time and the complaints become harassment.
Once the determination has been made that a suspected illegal use house is indeed legal, then Sheclown’s point comes into play. Continued complaints against the house and any attempt at changing the laws or the interpretation of those laws begins to interfere with the civil liberties of the inhabitants.
Quote from: strider on October 24, 2009, 10:52:43 AM
One question that seems to be missing is:
If a house has been turned in and found to be legal by the various licensing and enforcement agencies, and I do not like the determination of those agencies, what should I do to change that outcome?
The answer to that question is nothing, unless reasonable new evidence comes to light that something has changed within the house in question to indicate that the use has changed since the last enforcement investigation. This new evidence must be real and not hearsay or you are simply wasting the tax payers money and the city ‘s time and the complaints become harassment.
Once the determination has been made that a suspected illegal use house is indeed legal, then Sheclown’s point comes into play. Continued complaints against the house and any attempt at changing the laws or the interpretation of those laws begins to interfere with the civil liberties of the inhabitants.
Ah, come on, they already know that.
They just don't like how it turns out, so they continue turning in the same place over and over again for different violations, trying to couch that same question inside other bogus B.S. so it appears to be "new" issues. They do that specifically to trigger enforcement, knowing that COJ won't do anything if it's just the same complaint over and over again. Which it is. So they make "new" stuff up in the hopes that the original determination will be revisited.
In your case, it's all coming from the same place...and really from one individual when you get right down to it. I've been horrified ever since it came out awhile back that SPAR maintained a list of places it didn't like, so that multiple people could call and file complaints about those places with COJ. People who probably hadn't even seen the place, except on that list. And of course when you brought this up with that individual, the response was fake assault allegations and an (illegal) attempt to ban you from further public meetings. Which of course, only verifies what you already suspected.
The real question ought to be "Are these places good neighbors?". Why are people getting so upset about something they never would have noticed or even realized was there in the first place, if someone else hadn't made a big deal and told them it was a "problem"?
There are rehab/halfway houses in Riverside too, but R'side doesn't have prostitutes and crack dealers wandering around in broad daylight. AFAIC, this is a blatant attempt to pin the neighborhood's larger problems on an easy target. And while we have everybody distracted and up in arms over a halfway house (that was there before any of them moved into the neighborhood), let's just knock down that historic house so we can deliver another a vacant lot to that developer who just wrote me a $200k check.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 24, 2009, 12:38:08 PM
Quote from: strider on October 24, 2009, 10:52:43 AM
One question that seems to be missing is:
If a house has been turned in and found to be legal by the various licensing and enforcement agencies, and I do not like the determination of those agencies, what should I do to change that outcome?
The answer to that question is nothing, unless reasonable new evidence comes to light that something has changed within the house in question to indicate that the use has changed since the last enforcement investigation. This new evidence must be real and not hearsay or you are simply wasting the tax payers money and the city ‘s time and the complaints become harassment.
Once the determination has been made that a suspected illegal use house is indeed legal, then Sheclown’s point comes into play. Continued complaints against the house and any attempt at changing the laws or the interpretation of those laws begins to interfere with the civil liberties of the inhabitants.
Ah, come on, they already know that.
They just don't like how it turns out, so they continue turning in the same place over and over again for different violations, trying to couch that same question inside other bogus B.S. so it appears to be "new" issues. They do that specifically to trigger enforcement, knowing that COJ won't do anything if it's just the same complaint over and over again. Which it is. So they make "new" stuff up in the hopes that the original determination will be revisited.
In your case, it's all coming from the same place...and really from one individual when you get right down to it. I've been horrified ever since it came out awhile back that SPAR maintained a list of places it didn't like, so that multiple people could call and file complaints about those places with COJ. People who probably hadn't even seen the place, except on that list. And of course when you brought this up with that individual, the response was fake assault allegations and an (illegal) attempt to ban you from further public meetings. Which of course, only verifies what you already suspected.
The real question ought to be "Are these places good neighbors?". Why are people getting so upset about something they never would have noticed or even realized was there in the first place, if someone else hadn't made a big deal and told them it was a "problem"?
There are rehab/halfway houses in Riverside too, but R'side doesn't have prostitutes and crack dealers wandering around in broad daylight. AFAIC, this is a blatant attempt to pin the neighborhood's larger problems on an easy target. And while we have everybody distracted and up in arms over a halfway house (that was there before any of them moved into the neighborhood), let's just knock down that historic house so we can deliver another a vacant lot to that developer who just wrote me a $200k check.
That about sums it up.
Quote from: AlexS on October 23, 2009, 06:10:34 PM
Let’s not discuss here whether they are good or bad for the neighborhood. Let’s also try not to discuss SPAR. Let’s also try not to increase your post count and contribute nothing of substance. We already have other threads to do that. Think all that is possible ?
Lets stay on topic. There already are plenty threads about SPAR and there already is one if roominghouses are good for the neighborhood.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,5640.0.html
AlexS, I don't think you'll get your answers with this thread. It's turning into same thread, different day. I think I'm out for good, too (so the pending attacks will go unread). Hopefully these three or four will grow bored deluding each other, and we can someday start having honest, positive communication, consistent with the direction of the community, once again.
Ok, so then Alex, what are your answers to your own questions? I have answered them and I believe done so in the spirit of your thread and also keeping within the laws as they are now written. What do you think? How would you answer the question I added? Which is:
If a house has been turned in and found to be legal by the various licensing and enforcement agencies, and I do not like the determination of those agencies, what should I do to change that outcome?
and Zoo, if you had read my posts, you would know that I did certainly answer his questions as well as provided additional information to help this thread along. How about it, care to give your answers?
This will have to wait a bit. Heading on overseas business trip now. So a week of silence is expected from me.
I am having a bit time to spare at the airport. So I give my own questions a shot.
QuoteDo you think this building is a rooming house/halfway house because this is what the renters or potential renters refer to it?
Yes. If the law doesn't see it as what it's really used for, then the intent of the law is missed or it is being circumvented.
QuoteShould anyone question the legitimacy of such a place?
Yes. Otherwise what good does it do to have a law on the books which is intended to prevent additional special use facilities. As long as the house does not draw attention it will probably stay under the radar and not be reported.
QuoteHow should one go about checking compliance with existing zoning overlay?
Report it through the complaint based system and allow the city to do it’s job. It probably would be helpful if inspectors could perform an unannounced inspection (similar to how restaurants are inspected). Otherwise things can be made look proper for the inspector ahead of the visit.
QuoteIs the law specific enough to determine with certainty what this house is ?
No, I don't think it is. I am an educated person who reads the law but can't figure out what is what. Too many gray areas to be really enforceable in my opinion.
QuoteIf a house has been turned in and found to be legal by the various licensing and enforcement agencies, and I do not like the determination of those agencies, what should I do to change that outcome?
Nothing. Unless material new information is discovered after the inspection or there is strong suspicion that the inspector has been mislead by creating a potemkin village.
Wow. This stuff truly is addictive. Don't miss your flight!
Alex, I have made a few comments on both of our answers. Looking forward to your comments - and any others who may join in - when you can. joe
QuoteDo you think this building is a rooming house/halfway house because this is what the renters or potential renters refer to it?
QuoteYes. If the law doesn't see it as what it's really used for, then the intent of the law is missed or it is being circumvented
.
I disagree in part because I know that if someone knows a house as a crack house, they often still call it that even after the house has gone from a crack house, to condemned, to restored single family again. In addition, ones definition of what a house is maybe the same word but different meanings. So, while I can see your point in that what someone calls a house can be used to further investigate, this can not be used as a legal determination.
QuoteShould anyone question the legitimacy of such a place?
QuoteYes. Otherwise what good does it do to have a law on the books which is intended to prevent additional special use facilities. As long as the house does not draw attention it will probably stay under the radar and not be reported.
Being familiar with the law and knowing the laws are often two different things. Going back to your first question, just calling a house a “special use†does not make it so. Other wise, are we not sort of saying the same thing: I think first one needs to ask themselves the question, is this house posing a problem for me? Are they good or bad neighbors? In other words, each individual should make this decision for themselves. Like in any situation involving neighbors, the owner should be approached first. If that does not satisfy your issues, then your options are the DBPR or the COJ code enforcement.
QuoteHow should one go about checking compliance with existing zoning overlay?
QuoteReport it through the complaint based system and allow the city to do it’s job. It probably would be helpful if inspectors could perform an unannounced inspection (similar to how restaurants are inspected). Otherwise things can be made look proper for the inspector ahead of the visit.
We actually agreed here. Inspectors from code enforcement do indeed do unannounced inspections. Renters mostly will not allow an inspector in without the owner of the building being present. The difference between this complaint driven inspection on a house and a restraunts inspection is that code enforcement does not have the authority to enter without the expressed permission of the owner. A state inspector entering a state licensed facility has the right to enter at any time. However, even a state inspector can not enter a unlicensed facility without permission. It has been my experience that the only time a code enforcement inspector may call the owner ahead of time is when the particular house has been inspected based on complaints from the same people several times and as the inspector must go to the house, they simply can save a bit of time by having the owner meet them there.
QuoteIs the law specific enough to determine with certainty what this house is ?
QuoteNo, I don't think it is. I am an educated person who reads the law but can't figure out what is what. Too many gray areas to be really enforceable in my opinion.
My answer was:
Yes, to the degree the writers of the law believe it had to be. Actual and legally licensed “half-wayâ€, rooming and boarding houses exist within the city of Jacksonville so we can see that the laws have indeed identified those facilities as what they are. A reasonable criteria has been set, used and proven to work to identify those facilities.
I believe that once you begin to make laws too detailed, they can be more easily abused. In this case, what part of the law needs more detail? I believe that the laws basically tell you what determines if a use requires a license. If a house’s use does not require a license, then it is legal without one. In the case of a rooming house, the law specifies what defines a rooming house for the purposes of licensing. If a house does not require a license, then it is not a rooming house. The law specifies what constitutes a single family houses. If a house is used within those specifications, it is a legal single family house.
Perhaps what the real question here should be is:
If a house is being used for a legal use that I do not like or I believe to be using a “loophole†to be legal, should the laws be changed to accommodate my beliefs? I believe the answer to that question is no, it should not be changed because to do so is tramping on the civil rights of the owners of the house and those who may live in the house. However, if an issue is real and not made up, there could be times when a law needs to be strengthen, but not at the expense of civil liberties. I say this only because the civil liberties of all involved must be recognized. Even so, there are other ways to deal with many “neighbor to neighbor†issues without changing laws.
QuoteIf a house has been turned in and found to be legal by the various licensing and enforcement agencies, and I do not like the determination of those agencies, what should I do to change that outcome?
QuoteNothing. Unless material new information is discovered after the inspection or there is strong suspicion that the inspector has been mislead by creating a potemkin village.
[/quote]
We agree here. However, the reality is people often choose to believe that every house they turn in and is not found to be what they suspected is a “potemkin village“. Common sense must be applied at some point and when the house has been visited multiple times, and the interior has been inspected every time, in other words, the owners of the house in question cooperated fully with the inspectors, perhaps it is time to believe in the system and accept that a house is a legal use.
So, while we agree here, perhaps the new question is how do we prevent the public from abusing the complain system once a house has been determined to be legal?
QuoteFamily means one or more persons occupying a single dwelling unit; provided, that, unless all members are related by law, blood, adoption or marriage, no family shall contain over five persons. Domestic servants employed on the premises may be housed on the premises without being counted as a separate or additional family or families. The term family shall not be construed to mean a fraternity, sorority, club, monastery or convent, rooming or boardinghouse, emergency shelter, emergency shelter home, group care home, residential treatment facility, recovery home or nursing home, foster care home or family care home.
It appears that the intent of the law clearly specifies a true family. The definition tries to list all definitions which could be construed as a family but shall not apply. So to me even the "low density group care home" of less than 5 people would not qualify as a family since "group care home" in general is excluded from the definition of family.
QuoteWhile this mentions "existing rooming houses†shall be identified by these characteristics, I also know that this is also part of the criteria used to determine if a complaint that a building is being used as a rooming house is valid or not. By and by, though it says "individual storage of foodâ€, I wouldn't put much stock in that one as then a son or daughter could not have a small refrigerator in their room nor could a wife, for instance, that is vegetarian keep a separate food supply from the non-vegetarian husband. Same with most of the listed appliances.
I don't think a son or daughter would have any issues here as they are related by blood and constitute a true family. Thereby the son/daughter constellation would not be construed as a rooming house even with a separate refrigerator.
Alex, first let me begin by quoting something I posted earlier. It applies in a basic sense to determining whether any house rented to 5 or fewer unrelated adults is one of the listed businesses by whatever definition may be used or if they are living together as a family unit:
QuoteWhat code enforcement is more likely to look for is whether the common areas, like living rooms, dining rooms, kitchens and family rooms, are indeed set up and used for the intended purpose. In other words, can the “family†members sit and watch TV together, eat together and cook together if they so chose. You can not require this behavior in a “unrelated family†anymore than you can in a “blood related†one, but the presumption of the possibility of acting together as a family unit must be there.
This all goes back to the intent. If the intent is to have these five unrelated adults live together as a family unit, then it certainly can be viewed as a family.
Now let’s look at what you posted:
QuoteFamily means one or more persons occupying a single dwelling unit; provided, that, unless all members are related by law, blood, adoption or marriage, no family shall contain over five persons. Domestic servants employed on the premises may be housed on the premises without being counted as a separate or additional family or families. The term family shall not be construed to mean a fraternity, sorority, club, monastery or convent, rooming or boardinghouse, emergency shelter, emergency shelter home, group care home, residential treatment facility, recovery home or nursing home, foster care home or family care home.
QuoteIt appears that the intent of the law clearly specifies a true family. The definition tries to list all definitions which could be construed as a family but shall not apply. So to me even the "low density group care home" of less than 5 people would not qualify as a family since "group care home" in general is excluded from the definition of family.
Before you can make that statement, you must post the accepted definition of a group care home. In your loose interpretation, you can also say that any four or five college kids sharing a house together is a fraternity and therefore an illegal use. Is that your intent? In addition, I believe you will find that there is a intended difference between the 5 and fewer unrelated adults and the low density group care home definition, which is listed as 6 and fewer. Notice that the group care home starts at a max 6 rather than 5.
Again, this goes back to intent as much as anything. If the intent of the five college students is to be a fraternity, then they would be an illegal use. If it is just five guys living together then no, it is not. The same interpretation must apply across the board. Anything less would be illegal in itself.
QuoteQuoteWhile this mentions "existing rooming houses†shall be identified by these characteristics, I also know that this is also part of the criteria used to determine if a complaint that a building is being used as a rooming house is valid or not. By and by, though it says "individual storage of foodâ€, I wouldn't put much stock in that one as then a son or daughter could not have a small refrigerator in their room nor could a wife, for instance, that is vegetarian keep a separate food supply from the non-vegetarian husband. Same with most of the listed appliances.
I don't think a son or daughter would have any issues here as they are related by blood and constitute a true family. Thereby that constellation should not be construed as a rooming house even with a separate refrigerator.
Again, I think you are missing the point. By definition, five unrelated adults can be as much of a family as a husband, wife and three children so therefore, the same standards must be applied to both a son or daughter with that refrigerator in their room and that unrelated adult. If you wish to determine whether a house is a rooming house based on the presence of a small refrigerator in every bedroom, for instance, and a house is occupied by a husband, wife and two kids and there is a small refrigerator in every bedroom, then that house is also a rooming house by your definition and subject to the same laws and conditions as any other rooming house.
The bottom line here is that the laws are in existence and written the way they are in the best attempt at ensuring equality of enforcement. Trying to apply a different interpretation to the various laws to make a group you do not like illegal is not only immoral, it is illegal.
By looking at the definitions of rooming house and boarding house it becomes apparent that it highly matters if rooms are advertised to the public. If so, a DBPR license would be needed (with few exceptions).
It would therefore be interesting to know how residents for the "low density group homes" or "single family of 5 or less unrelated people residences" are found. Is anyone allowed to live there ? How do you find out about it ? Is some agency referring people ? Do current residents have a choice in who joins their living community ?
QuoteBoardinghouse means a residential facility building where meals are regularly prepared and served to the residents only for compensation and where food is placed upon the table family-style without service or ordering of individual portions from a menu. A boardinghouse shall not be deemed to include a hotel, motel, group care home, family care home, recovery home, residential treatment facility, emergency shelter, emergency shelter home or nursing home.
Rooming houses means a building in which sleeping accommodations are offered to the public where rentals are for a period of a week or longer and occupancy is generally by residents rather than transient.
§ 509.242(1)(f), Florida Statutes: Roominghouse.--A roominghouse is any public lodging establishment that may not be classified as a hotel, motel, resort condominium, nontransient apartment, bed and breakfast inn, or transient apartment under this section. A roominghouse includes, but is not limited to, a boardinghouse.
Who needs a license ?
Anyone planning to operate a public lodging establishment in Florida will need a license from the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Hotels and Restaurants. According to section 509.013 (4), Florida Statutes (FS).
(a) "Public lodging establishment" means any unit, group of units, dwelling, building, or group of buildings within a single complex of buildings, which is rented to guests more than three times in a calendar year for periods of less than 30 days or one calendar month, whichever is less, or which is advertised or held out to the public as a place regularly rented to guests.
The focal point in determining illegal use seems to be the definition of a family. There currently appears to be a bit of a gray area. Perhaps the better way than to determine between legal single family and illegal rooming houses may be to go after houses which cause problems.
QuoteWe currently have a "family" definition upheld by a United States Supreme Court decision in Village of Belle Terre v. Boraas in 1974. The Supreme Court concluded that rights of individuals under the federal Constitution are not violated when a city prohibits more than two unrelated people from occupying a home in a single-family residential zone.
In the 1984 case of Charter Township of Delta v. Dinolfo, the Michigan Supreme Court specifically rejected the Belle Terre decision. In declaring the ordinance unconstitutional under the Michigan Constitution, the court concluded:
"Unrelated persons are artificially limited to as few as two, while related families may expand without limit. Under the instant ordinance, twenty male cousins could live together, motorcycles, noise, and all, while three unrelated clerics could not . . . . The ordinance indiscriminately regulates where no regulation is needed and fails to regulate where regulation is most needed."
These state Supreme Court decisions do not leave cities without tools to address problems of noise, pollution, littering, overcrowding, safety, and traffic. Laws regulating such issues can be enforced vigorously against offending households regardless of whether the occupants are related to each in a traditional sense.
Most people still believe that a person's home is his or her castle. And they are leary of government regulation of private relationships.
True, the government may need to draw a line in terms of who may live in a residential area zoned for "single family" use. But that line should be flexible, so that small groups of individuals who are functioning as a single family unit on a long-term basis are not put into the same category as an large group of students who are living together on a short term basis.
If a household considers itself to be a single family, and if it functions like a single family, then it should not matter to local politicians whether the group is related by blood or marriage. Three elderly friends who share a home, an unmarried couple with children, or a same-sex couple with a foster child, should not be viewed as threats to family living.
The best way for a city council to avoid triggering "culture wars" in their community -- pitting conservatives against progressives -- is to place the focus of a new definition of "family" on function, not structure.
Alex, Let’s look at your post from a little different perspective:
QuoteWe currently have a "family" definition upheld by a United States Supreme Court decision in Village of Belle Terre v. Boraas in 1974. The Supreme Court concluded that rights of individuals under the federal Constitution are not violated when a city prohibits more than two unrelated people from occupying a home in a single-family residential zone.
In the 1984 case of Charter Township of Delta v. Dinolfo, the Michigan Supreme Court specifically rejected the Belle Terre decision. In declaring the ordinance unconstitutional under the Michigan Constitution, the court concluded:
Quote"Unrelated persons are artificially limited to as few as two, while related families may expand without limit. Under the instant ordinance, twenty male cousins could live together, motorcycles, noise, and all, while three unrelated clerics could not . . . . The ordinance indiscriminately regulates where no regulation is needed and fails to regulate where regulation is most needed."
These state Supreme Court decisions do not leave cities without tools to address problems of noise, pollution, littering, overcrowding, safety, and traffic. Laws regulating such issues can be enforced vigorously against offending households regardless of whether the occupants are related to each in a traditional sense.
Most people still believe that a person's home is his or her castle. And they are leary of government regulation of private relationships.
True, the government may need to draw a line in terms of who may live in a residential area zoned for "single family" use. But that line should be flexible, so that small groups of individuals who are functioning as a single family unit on a long-term basis are not put into the same category as an large group of students who are living together on a short term basis.
If a household considers itself to be a single family, and if it functions like a single family, then it should not matter to local politicians whether the group is related by blood or marriage. Three elderly friends who share a home, an unmarried couple with children, or a same-sex couple with a foster child, should not be viewed as threats to family living.
The best way for a city council to avoid triggering "culture wars" in their community -- pitting conservatives against progressives -- is to place the focus of a new definition of "family" on function, not structure.
You will noticed I changed a couple of “boldsâ€. There are also more recent decisions out there. This one says you can’t regulate the number in a way, but other decisions have brought about what is considered a reasonable number. While a few are out there at three unrelated adults, most are at five or more. In some cases, even the number 5 has been thrown out as too limiting.
Hate to repeat myself, but….
Quote(Can) the “family†members sit and watch TV together, eat together and cook together if they so chose. You can not require this behavior in a “unrelated family†anymore than you can in a “blood related†one, but the presumption of the possibility of acting together as a family unit must be there.
You can look at how a family unit lives together, but unless you can enforce those ideals on all families, you can not just enforce those ideals on an family of unrelated adults.
For instance, we have married couples that do not even live together yet, by law, they are a family. We have unmarried couples with children who do live together, we have gay couples who are not allowed to get married who live together, and…well the list of possibilities is almost endless. Unless you find a way that can define the “function†of all those different dynamics and treats each one equally, you risk a law that will be found immoral and illegal.
QuoteThe focal point in determining illegal use seems to be the definition of a family. There currently appears to be a bit of a gray area. Perhaps the better way than to determine between legal single family and illegal rooming houses may be to go after houses which cause problems.
You are much better off not trying to make something illegal that is not and worrying about the good neighbor, bad neighbor aspect of the issue. Is the house in question actually causing real problems? Make sure they are indeed real problems and not some made up one to try to move people out of “your†community because you don’t like them. Once legitimate complaints are filed, most of the time, even here in Springfield, the issues with that house are lessened. If the house is actually next to you and there is a problem and a complaint filed, it is much more likely to be taken seriously over those complaints filed time and time again from “across town.â€
One thing I didn't address was how residents are found for the houses in question. They are found pretty much the same way as all renters are found. Again, the intent is what matters here. Do the residents intend to stay long term and does the landlord intend to have the resident there long term? If so, it is the same as a rental all over town.
We also should be somewhat concerned about Stephen’s last post. Are we missing some really cool residents because we are trying to get rid of a group we do not like? Are we doing a disservice to people who need this type of housing ( sharing a house with other unrelated adults) to live where they want to live and take advantage of the services ( buses, walk ability, etc.) that are offered here?
Strider, out of mere curiosity what is the definition of "long term"?
Long Term, in my mind, means never having to leave.
Of course with changing the highlighting you have proven my point that it's a gray area. Same text with changed highlighting can prove both viewpoints.
Quote(Can) the “family†members sit and watch TV together, eat together and cook together if they so chose. You can not require this behavior in a “unrelated family†anymore than you can in a “blood related†one, but the presumption of the possibility of acting together as a family unit must be there.
I purposely did skip this as it deflects from the topic at hand. The topic here is the characteristic of a rooming/boarding house and not if you should regulate what a "family" does. It is however relevant what constitutes a family.
QuoteQuote
It would therefore be interesting to know how residents for the "low density group homes" or "single family of 5 or less unrelated people residences" are found. Is anyone allowed to live there ? How do you find out about it ? Is some agency referring people ? Do current residents have a choice in who joins their living community ?
One thing I didn't address was how residents are found for the houses in question. They are found pretty much the same way as all renters are found. Again, the intent is what matters here. Do the residents intend to stay long term and does the landlord intend to have the resident there long term? If so, it is the same as a rental all over town.
That was a rather evasive answer as it does not tell if it's publicly advertised, open to the general public and what timeframe it's advertised for. All these are relevant in regard to current law and licensing.
Alex, we can only answer to what we do, not what everyone does. In our case, it is friends, or friends of friends, word of mouth. AA community. etc. We do not advertise to the general public.
Remember that we (not me and Joe, but the organization) have been operating Home Away From Home for 23 years.
I would like to invite you to come and visit us, again, and we can answer any and all questions that you may have.
Quote from: sheclown on November 04, 2009, 08:14:55 PM
Long Term, in my mind, means never having to leave.
That's a potentially really long lease! :)
Alex, the quote and my discussion about it was in response to the comment in your quote about the “function†of a family. Which goes back to how do you determine if a house with five unrelated adults living in it is a "family" residence or not. It is very much on topic as much of what is said and is posted about what makes a house a legal single family or an illegal rooming house focuses on whom rather than what.
As far as the "evasive answer", as I am assuming that we are talking primarily "in general" as opposed to a specific "house in question" - in other words, all possible houses that could fall into the five and under unrelated adults family issue, then no, not evasive, just general. How do you advertise a rental? Word of mouth, advertisements in "for rent" sections, HUD referrals, sometimes agencies, etc. Some of the houses that are "in question" have advertised on the SPAR Council forum.
Do the residents have a say in who may or may not live there? Yes...and no. Again, I can't answer for all the possible houses as I do not know.
If you want more specifics, PM me and we can meet and talk as we have before.
“Long term†is defined by the state in a way. Most think of it as a normal lease term…six months to one year, but three to six months is often OK with apartment complexes - IE - it is not transient per the state so no transient taxes due. I believe you will find that 3 months and the transient tax drops off regardless of where the person lives. Some apartment complexes would rent for 3 month terms (but can't do that more that twice a year) , but I think generally 6 months is the min. and of course, the “norm†is one year. So, how do you define “long term�
How many houses has the community been told we rent out, Dan? From some of the e-mails Louise sent out, you would think we already have one per block.
At the risk of sounding dumb, I thought landlords could have additional tax burden on leases of less than 12 months. Anyone have the answer?
Quote from: strider on November 04, 2009, 08:51:23 PM
How many houses has the community been told we rent out, Dan? From some of the e-mails Louise sent out, you would think we already have one per block.
Answer my question and I'll answer yours....call Louise if you need to....
The community has not been given any number. We all have had experiences with rooming/boarding/halfway houses that are not licensed as, but operate as such. There are two on Silver within two blocks of my home. Strider, why do you continue to make it all about you when it's not. The way you get defensive anytime the subject is brought up would make people think you own them all.
Quote from: strider on November 04, 2009, 09:16:57 PM
Quote from: strider on November 04, 2009, 08:51:23 PM
How many houses has the community been told we rent out, Dan? From some of the e-mails Louise sent out, you would think we already have one per block.
Answer my question and I'll answer yours....call Louise if you need to....
Did you know that on 12 Jan 1946 George wrote in the Evening Standard - “Eleven steps to heaven and "a nice cup of tea": his advice for brewing the best possible cup of tea
I guess no one knows about the tax on leases of less than 12 months?
Dan, PM me and I'll take you on a tour. Then, you can buy me a cup of coffee. And a piece of cake.
QuoteStrider, why do you continue to make it all about you when it's not.
Hmmm. Lisa, if that is true, can you explain why my name is on virtually every e-mail that Louise sent out about this issue? Louise seems to have made me her sacrifical goat....
QuoteI thought landlords could have additional tax burden on leases of less than 12 months.
Lisa, I believe it is a little more complicated. Apartment complexes occasionally write leases for as little as 3 months, but you need to be careful as you can get caught up in the transient rental thing. Six months is often the minimum I have seen. Six months keeps you out of trouble - offered for rent less that three times a year, not transient, ETC. It is intent as much as anything. The state actually says that after 3 months, even with an “extended stay or rooming house†you can stop charging the transient room tax as the renter is no longer considered transient at that point. At least it was that way as of last year. In the chase for tax dollars, who knows today.
And I keep hearing this conflicting information about a list, then no list then a list and......Odd, actually.
Quote from: strider on November 04, 2009, 08:51:23 PM
From some of the e-mails Louise sent out, you would think we already have one per block.
No, that'd be her check-writing-developer-friend. And you can tell the difference, because yours are still standing.
QuoteDid you know that on 12 Jan 1946 George wrote in the Evening Standard - “Eleven steps to heaven and "a nice cup of tea": his advice for brewing the best possible cup of tea
I liked this so much, it deserved another 'round. Can you post the rest of this, Chris?
Quote from: strider on November 04, 2009, 09:42:00 PM
QuoteDid you know that on 12 Jan 1946 George wrote in the Evening Standard - “Eleven steps to heaven and "a nice cup of tea": his advice for brewing the best possible cup of tea
I liked this so much, it deserved another 'round. Can you post the rest of this, Chris?
Sure thing:
Quote1. Use Indian or Ceylonese tea
2. Brew tea in a china (ceramic) or earthenware pot
3. Warm the pot before adding the loose-leaf tea
4. Use strong tea
5. Place loose-leaf tea directly into the pot without a strainer, muslin bag, or other device to 'imprison the tea.' Take the teapot to the kettle to pour water that should be boiling
6. Stir or shake the pot
7. Drink the tea out of a cylindrical cup
8. Decant any cream off of the fresh milk before using
9. Pour tea into the cup, then pour in the milk
10. Drink tea without sugar
And it's a shame he stopped at 1984. The 21st century is really so much more horrifying.
Quote from: sheclown on November 04, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
Dan, PM me and I'll take you on a tour. Then, you can buy me a cup of coffee. And a piece of cake.
I'll take the tour. I'm tired of the hearsay. I don't know about the coffe or cake though, haven't you heard I'm cheap and on a diet!
You can have the tour, but it will cost you cake. PM me and we'll make arrangements.
Now this thread has been hijacked too. Guess one can't have a serious discussion on this forum. It was working so well for a while. >:(
Strider and Sheclown, we will need to talk about another meeting and some discussion about open questions. Appreciate the invite. Will get back to you once I return from my trip on 11/12.
Quote from: Dan B on November 04, 2009, 08:45:37 PM
I have a question.
How many "sober houses" do you run in the neighborhood?
Not looking for addresses or anything, just morbid curiosity.
Thanks for hijacking the thread.
Quote from: Dan B on November 05, 2009, 09:51:53 AM
It wasnt meant as a hijack, it was just a question, one that could have been answered in one post, rather than what happened with the unrelated party. My question seemed relevant, and as this is the most recent thread that the subject the issue was being discussed, I thought it a perfectly appropriate place to post my question here.
I guess we differ here. How does it help in the task of defining the characteristics of a rooming house/halfway house to know how many "sober houses" a particular person operates ?
You stirred the pot and got what always happens when these types of questions are asked. Really surprised ?
Just by your response.
Just got this from spar
QuoteRemember the Community Meeting tonight at 7:00 P.M. at SPAR (1321 N. Main St.). The issue is a concern over the growing number of rooming houses in the Historic District. Please come and invite friends and neighbors.
SPAR Council
The tour starts at 3:00 pm at the Thrift Store. All interested parties are invited. I will answer any and all questions that you have.
If parking is blocked by road work, there is parking on the side street or in the back.
And this is giong to cost SOMEONE a piece of cake, I don't really care who ;D
I have the same problem. My J.O.B frowns on leaving in the middle of the afternoon with no notice :-D
Well, Matt and Dan, we can make it some other time. You two come up with a day and time and we'll make it work.
I can do pictures.
Alex has had the grand tour, on more than one occasion, I believe.
If you are smart you will make it during dinner, the baked chicken and greens were awesome.
Quote from: sheclown on November 05, 2009, 01:26:02 PM
Alex has had the grand tour, on more than one occasion, I believe.
I have had the grand tour. Now I'll just need a refresher discussion.
Alex is just looking for another free dinner.. ;D ;D ;D
and uh em...Matt and Dan -- let's sit down and have a discussion.
Strider, I'm being lazy and not going back to find the quote. But I asked what you consider long-term and then you asked me. My answer: If someone said long-term lease to me I would be thinking a year long lease.
I said that long-term was as long as a person wished to stay.