Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield, I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street. There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.
SPAR is working with Ennis Davis of Metro Jacksonville, Corie Baker of C Squared Design, and Content Design to provide consultation and design services to businesses or property owners who seek to improve the facade of their building. The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000. Therefore plenty of businesses and property owners should be able to be apart of the program.
Business and property owners were sent a mailing about the program a few weeks ago and are in the process of getting estimates and submitting their applications to the program. If you are friends with any business or property owners along Main Street, be sure to encourage them to contact SPAR if they haven't already. If you have any further questions feel free to contact me at jeremyh@sparcouncil.org. I am SPAR's new revitalization planner and would love to hear of everyone's vision for Main Street. I will be sure to keep the forum updated on the progress of the program as it evolves.
Jeremy, which businesses qualify?
Quote from: sheclown on October 19, 2009, 02:33:47 PM
Jeremy, which businesses qualify?
Any business that fronts Main Street between Phelps and 12th is eligible to apply. Obviously there will not be enough product available for every business. So the design team along with SPAR will determine which applications will do the most significant improvements.
Quote from: stephendare on October 19, 2009, 02:51:05 PM
hmmm.
maybe. knowing both ennis and the guys from content dog, i suspect it has more to do with their commitment to the neighborhood than anything else.
Its not a maybe, it was all SPAR. SPAR was the one who procured the funding and is administering every aspect of the program. The architects are providing valuable input into the program and will hopefully do some great design work for the businesses along Main Street. Please keep the negativity and speculation out of a positive post.
It would be nice if they just weren't ignored. After all, the pawn shops were among the last standing during Main Street construction. They should be rewarded, along with Carl's and A - Z, for hanging on for the last couple of decades.
Quote from: sheclown on October 19, 2009, 03:12:31 PM
It would be nice if they just weren't ignored. After all, the pawn shops were among the last standing during Main Street construction. They should be rewarded, along with Carl's and A - Z, for hanging on for the last couple of decades.
Of course they won't be ignored. A-Z already has renderings from one of our designers and will likely be apart of the program. We haven't heard from Carl's yet, as most businesses have come to us already. However we do plan on initiating some conversation with him.
We own a business on Main Street. We never got a mailing, but then again, SPAR came out against us so.... But we also just lease space rather than own. Are we eligible or does it go to the owner of the building? And if so, can we coordinate for the out of town owner?
I do have to say that one business who has checked this out was less than impressed with the reception he got. The business happened to be a rooming house. If you are the new guy, perhaps you will make even the "less desirable" businesses feel more welcome.
Yes, there is a little negativity with this post, but as many have had bad experiences, we are leery when something is brought forward sort of "after the fact" and after some pretty bad things have been brought out. Realtively few seem to know about this program and that is a bit odd.
As to many of the ideas, the renderings we have seen are very good. A-Z will be a good canidate and you really do need to include every type of business. Yes, even the rooming houses and pawn shops. They are part of Main Street and are not going anywhere.
Quote from: strider on October 19, 2009, 03:40:29 PM
We own a business on Main Street. We never got a mailing, but then again, SPAR came out against us so.... But we also just lease space rather than own. Are we eligible or does it go to the owner of the building? And if so, can we coordinate for the out of town owner?
I do have to say that one business who has checked this out was less than impressed with the reception he got. The business happened to be a rooming house. If you are the new guy, perhaps you will make even the "less desirable" businesses feel more welcome.
Yes, there is a little negativity with this post, but as many have had bad experiences, we are leery when something is brought forward sort of "after the fact" and after some pretty bad things have been brought out. Realtively few seem to know about this program and that is a bit odd.
As to many of the ideas, the renderings we have seen are very good. A-Z will be a good canidate and you really do need to include every type of business. Yes, even the rooming houses and pawn shops. They are part of Main Street and are not going anywhere.
If you didn't receive a mailing that is exclusively my fault, not some effort from SPAR to shut you out. I simply went up and down the Jax GIS website and got mailing addresses from there. I also did a walking inventory of every business on Main Street and had one sent to the business location. What is the name of the business you run? I must have missed it. I have 5 letters in my desk that were undeliverable, so its possible it could be one of those.
As the business owner you would be eligible for it, but you would have to make sure your landlord would be ok with it.
I didn't personally speak with the owner of the rooming house, but know which one you are talking about. Simply put, there are no products in the program for him. The awnings and signage are for commercial businesses. While the fencing is intended to replace existing chain link. There is a good chance we will have a lot of leftover paint, in which case we are going to offer it to as many businesses as possible. We would certainly be willing to offer them leftover paint if we have some.
I fully understand if people have past issues in the back of their mind. This was meant to be an inclusive process and I have tried as hard as possible to send the program announcement to every single business owner. I don't think I would say relatively few business owners know of the program. In fact I would say nearly all are aware of it. A very significant amount of the existing businesses have already been in contact with us. We've been very busy lately tying up a lot of loose ends with the program and thus have not had the time to get out and talk to the businesses that we haven't heard from yet. I will be doing a lot of following up this week, so every business owner should be aware of it very soon if they aren't already. Shoot me an email at jeremyh@sparcouncil.org and I will forward you everything you need to know. Let me know your business and I'll stop in to chat when I'm out and about.
Quote from: stephendare on October 19, 2009, 02:51:05 PM
hmmm.
maybe. knowing both ennis and the guys from content dog, i suspect it has more to do with their commitment to the neighborhood than anything else.
SPAR has been in the driver's seat for this program. It is their baby, and we're happy to help out any way we can.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on October 19, 2009, 04:14:26 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 19, 2009, 02:51:05 PM
hmmm.
maybe. knowing both ennis and the guys from content dog, i suspect it has more to do with their commitment to the neighborhood than anything else.
SPAR has been in the driver's seat for this program. It is their baby, and we're happy to help out any way we can.
Ditto. Give credit where credit is due. The program is SPAR's baby. Like Content, I'm just helping out in any fashion that I can to make Springfield a more attractive urban community.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 03:19:43 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 19, 2009, 03:12:31 PM
It would be nice if they just weren't ignored. After all, the pawn shops were among the last standing during Main Street construction. They should be rewarded, along with Carl's and A - Z, for hanging on for the last couple of decades.
Of course they won't be ignored. A-Z already has renderings from one of our designers and will likely be apart of the program. We haven't heard from Carl's yet, as most businesses have come to us already. However we do plan on initiating some conversation with him.
I was in Carl's about a week or so ago and filled him in on the program. He said he had received a letter and was interested in awnings, as well as trying to clean his brick facade. Right now, he's more focused on surviving Main Street's construction but he mentioned he planned to contact SPAR to learn more about the program.
Excellent! Carl's is amazing. How they have held on is beyond me and ought to be an inspiration to anyone going through any sort of adversity. Same for the other businesses on Main Street. Including the pawn shops.
...and their fries are terrific! (Carl's that is, not the pawn shops)
I'm surprised that some people who are 'involved in the nieghborhood' didn't know about this.
Just by attending various neighborhood meetings i've been aware of this for sometime (months).
Attending neighborhood meetings regularly is encouraged if you'd like to be kept in the loop i suppose.
That being said, this general information was announced on SPAR's website when it happened though Jth went into far more detail.
Thank you for reminding those who missed it or just forgot, Jth.
I suspect that some could have missed other news as well.
Anyword on when the first actual work will happen?
This is sure to make a big difference in some businesses.
OK, so, thinking I missed something, I just went back and reviewed several months of the SPAR Council website's front page. Nothing about this program, but there are large gaps in the "Spar Speaks" posted. Then I went to my e-mail as they used to e-mail me the SPAR Speaks. Nothing since July and nothing about this program. I also know that I either no longer get them or ... because I found part of one from August 7th that wasn't posted nor e-mailed to me nor mailed to me. It is true that I rarely go to a meeting. I went to a few, but as I am not welcome, though they did indeed take my membership fee, it wasn't worth while. No matter why I go, it will be assumed for some other reason. Past experience.
So, this all inclusive program, how is one supposed to find out about it? I understand the mailing to business owners and that it is possible to have a few get missed, but I am talking about the general public and members of SPAR Council. Until now, I knew only because of a conversation with a business owner and because, after that, someone posted about it on another forum. Someone missed the boat here...this should have been pasted across every forum in Jacksonville as this is a great positive. It is widely known that SPAR Council is not very good about communicating with it's membership let alone the rest of Springfield. Even those who are avid supporters have complained about that.
Jth, I will e-mail you. Thanks for the response. I am looking forward to meeting with you about this. In case no one else has told you yet, we are the Thrift Store on Main Street, 1728 Main Street. I will call the owner of the building and ask him and, also,this would be a good thing for the other experts to address- while it is one building, it is four store fronts so are all the same or all different best?
Yeah, I got a shot of SPAR's Main Street Revitalization Program:
(http://radiofreecanada.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/implosion6.jpg)
(http://www.magazine.uc.edu/0798/images/sanderNEWIR.jpg)
;D
ChriswUFGator............that was priceless big guy! Too bad it is too true also!
Quote from: fsu813 on October 19, 2009, 05:46:26 PM
I'm surprised that some people who are 'involved in the nieghborhood' didn't know about this.
Just by attending various neighborhood meetings i've been aware of this for sometime (months).
Attending neighborhood meetings regularly is encouraged if you'd like to be kept in the loop i suppose.
That being said, this general information was announced on SPAR's website when it happened though Jth went into far more detail.
Thank you for reminding those who missed it or just forgot, Jth.
I suspect that some could have missed other news as well.
Anyword on when the first actual work will happen?
This is sure to make a big difference in some businesses.
The first work shouldn't happen for a little while. Probably not until late November/early December at the earliest. The business/property owners were mailed info on the program 2 to 3 weeks ago, so many are still in the early phases of figuring out what they want to do. The earliest we will start reviewing applications is November 13th, so they still have plenty of time to get their plans together. I think the results should really be seen in early 2010, but at this point we are still in the early stages of everything and we'll see how it evolves.
Well I have a problem already............not all business's were informed of what was coming! If SPAR was so gungho about this and this is an area problem that effects all of Springfield,particularly Main Street, how can you not make sure all are informed of an option such as this? Is this because SPAR feels this is only something that would pertain to just certain business's or store's? Whether or not a person is a member of SPAR should have no bearing on making your area presentable..........or making that part of the world viable and energetic! This seems somewhat narrow minded or closed thought to me...........but that's just my take!
CS,
i guess you didn't read the thread before bashing.
typical.
your concern was addressed earlier in this thread
Quote from: strider on October 19, 2009, 07:17:58 PM
OK, so, thinking I missed something, I just went back and reviewed several months of the SPAR Council website's front page. Nothing about this program, but there are large gaps in the "Spar Speaks" posted. Then I went to my e-mail as they used to e-mail me the SPAR Speaks. Nothing since July and nothing about this program. I also know that I either no longer get them or ... because I found part of one from August 7th that wasn't posted nor e-mailed to me nor mailed to me. It is true that I rarely go to a meeting. I went to a few, but as I am not welcome, though they did indeed take my membership fee, it wasn't worth while. No matter why I go, it will be assumed for some other reason. Past experience.
So, this all inclusive program, how is one supposed to find out about it? I understand the mailing to business owners and that it is possible to have a few get missed, but I am talking about the general public and members of SPAR Council. Until now, I knew only because of a conversation with a business owner and because, after that, someone posted about it on another forum. Someone missed the boat here...this should have been pasted across every forum in Jacksonville as this is a great positive. It is widely known that SPAR Council is not very good about communicating with it's membership let alone the rest of Springfield. Even those who are avid supporters have complained about that.
Jth, I will e-mail you. Thanks for the response. I am looking forward to meeting with you about this. In case no one else has told you yet, we are the Thrift Store on Main Street, 1728 Main Street. I will call the owner of the building and ask him and, also,this would be a good thing for the other experts to address- while it is one building, it is four store fronts so are all the same or all different best?
I just drove by your building today and now know where your business is. Did you have signage up a month ago? If so then I must have just missed it. I've been in discussion with your landlord Dr. Werman for about a week regarding the program. From what he's told me he plans on doing fairly extensive renovations. You might want to contact him about everything.
As for your comment about one having to find out about it. We wanted to get the initial information to the business owners prior to formally announcing anything to the public. They just got the information in the past couple weeks. Also there are still quite a few kinks to be ironed out, as I'm sure Ennis can attest to. So we wanted to have a clear idea of everything before we got the information out to the public. I had been planning on writing a formal piece on the program and having Ennis put it on the front page of MetroJax, but things have been hectic and I haven't gotten around to it. There will be a detailed write up on it in this months SPAR newsletter and I've just posted the information here. So nobody missed the boat, we just wanted to wait until everything was in place before formally announcing everything to the public.
As the facade improvements are being made and there is visible change to the Main Street Corridor, I and SPAR have every intention of getting the positive change to Springfield as much media attention as possible.
Quote from: Jth on October 20, 2009, 03:48:12 PM
I've been in discussion with your landlord Dr. Werman for about a week regarding the program. From what he's told me he plans on doing fairly extensive renovations. You might want to contact him about everything.
I believe Barry Werman was also the owner (with Jim Brewer) of the building at 115 W 2nd St that stood vacant for so long and tried to get permission for demolition. I would be suspect about any claims of extensive renovation.
Quote from: untarded on October 20, 2009, 03:59:26 PM
Quote from: Jth on October 20, 2009, 03:48:12 PM
I've been in discussion with your landlord Dr. Werman for about a week regarding the program. From what he's told me he plans on doing fairly extensive renovations. You might want to contact him about everything.
I believe Barry Werman was also the owner (with Jim Brewer) of the building at 115 W 2nd St that stood vacant for so long and tried to get permission for demolition. I would be suspect about any claims of extensive renovation.
Thanks for the heads up, he will have to submit a detailed bid on everything he wants done. So we will be able to determine whether or not his plans are legit and worthwhile.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 19, 2009, 08:06:26 PM
Yeah, I got a shot of SPAR's Main Street Revitalization Program:
(http://radiofreecanada.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/implosion6.jpg)
(http://www.magazine.uc.edu/0798/images/sanderNEWIR.jpg)
;D
Well obviously this is something we as a company, that heralds the re-use and potential of decaying buildings would certainly get behind. Certainly we'd champion the demolition of buildings, just as we do with our Urban Facelift Project.
^He's working on getting the application complete for the program. He's on track to make the changes.
Quote from: Matt McVay on October 20, 2009, 04:57:32 PM
There has been some mention of a similar program for low-income homeowners where they could apply to have their house painted etc. Donations from local businesses would be made for the supplies and then neighbors would volunteer the labor. It would be nice to see that get going too.
This sounds like a very good idea. I think it would go a long way to make many of these residents feel more integrated into the neighborhood and be a great way to get many of them more involved in neighborhood events.
Yes, it is possible to use the tools SPAR has developed for a similar program for low-income homeowners. This is a resource issue, and I would guess SPAR would welcome help to develop, obtain donations for, and administer the program. Just call and offer!
I just talked to Mr. Werman this afternoon. He seems really excited about the project. As far as his plans being "legit and worthwhile" I would assume they are as legit and worthwhile as the next guy. I don't understand the bad vibe/heads up stuff. He has been great to us.
Quote from: sheclown on October 20, 2009, 05:44:39 PM
I just talked to Mr. Werman this afternoon. He seems really excited about the project. As far as his plans being "legit and worthwhile" I would assume they are as legit and worthwhile as the next guy. I don't understand the bad vibe/heads up stuff. He has been great to us.
There was no implication by me that his plans are not legit and worthwhile. I was simply assuring the other poster that the review process will be fair and comprehensive. There is no bad vibe of any sort. As I mentioned in another post, I've been impressed with the ideas Dr. Werman has thrown out to me. I look forward to seeing what he's able to put together.
Quote from: Jth on October 20, 2009, 06:46:43 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 20, 2009, 05:44:39 PM
I just talked to Mr. Werman this afternoon. He seems really excited about the project. As far as his plans being "legit and worthwhile" I would assume they are as legit and worthwhile as the next guy. I don't understand the bad vibe/heads up stuff. He has been great to us.
There was no implication by me that his plans are not legit and worthwhile. I was simply assuring the other poster that the review process will be fair and comprehensive. There is no bad vibe of any sort. As I mentioned in another post, I've been impressed with the ideas Dr. Werman has thrown out to me. I look forward to seeing what he's able to put together.
cool. good stuff.
JTH: We've had the sign up at the Thrift Store since August. Probably could be a better sign if you haven't noticed it until this week.
This is GREAT news.
Great news indeed. Thanks for the info Matt, sounds like a good business for Main Street. Valerio's stuff likely won't be done by the end of the month though. We don't plan on reviewing the applications we receive until mid-November. Valerio is further along than most with his plans thanks to Content Design's work, but I don't think we're at the point of being able to give out the products this soon.
The other paint project you mentioned earlier sounded good and I wish I could help with that, but I'm strictly limited to the Main Street Corridor. Where did you hear about the project? I could ask around and see what the deal is with it.
JTH, Jason and others, great work effort on your part along with this success for SPAR. Obtaining grants and funding such as this is a tremendous effort and is a major shot in the arm for Springfield.
With the completion of Main Street, the very slow demolition of the dilapidated of Park View Inn, The Market, and plans for Carl's, Valeiro's and other businesses along Main Street, this is the the forward progress and improvement that myself and many others in the neighborhood have been waiting on for years.
Congratulations again and continued good luck with the forward progress. You will no doubt have some uphill battles along the way, but it will be worth the effort.
Best Regards.
This definitely sounds like a great program. Don't forget however that a Certificate of Appropriateness (COA) is required for any work (including painting) that occurs on the properties. People also tend to forget that COA's are also required for fencing.
COAs are required for anything that "may" change the appearance of the property from the street. Even windows that face the back yard are required. Spoke with a number of window companies at the latest home show who had to eat a "few" jobs due to having RAP and the City come down on them for windows in the backyard of houses.
Also, COA's are not difficult to get. The folks down at the Historic Department (Florida Threatre building, 5th floor) are very helpful and will quide you through the process. SPAR Council is not the authority here and all COA's are done by the cities Historical Department. Most COA's for things like painting and such are walk-throughs and can be gotten by a phone call and a single trip downtown.
Mainstreet is slowly getting finished. A few new businesses have opened up and a few more are in the works. Even if this program can't or doesn't help you, now might still be the time to spruce up that sign and store front.
^Just wanted to let everyone know that I don't believe anyone involved with this project is a stranger to the COA process, and realize that any work done for this program would have to go to Historic Preservation staff.
We just heard that awnings are no longer part of this program. Is that true? It seems like awnings were a large part of it and an important one.
I hear awnings are out, too. Apparently they operate on very slim margins, and SPAR's program is dependent on donors recouping retail costs. If anyone knows any other awning companies, or landscaping materials providers, that may want to participate next year, they should refer them to SPAR.
well that stinks.
anyone approached the major box stores........Lowes & Home Depot? I would guess that someone would have by now, but just checking.
Though perhaps a SAMBA/SPAR board member would be more appropriate, I'd be willing to go see them if they haven't been approached. I'm at Lowes all the time.
Wow, we have not heard that yet. Hopefully they can get someone else on board, awnings are an important feature....
QuoteZoo: Apparently they operate on very slim margins, and SPAR's program is dependent on donors recouping retail costs.
Can you explain this a bit...if they donate something but get back retail costs, what are they donating? Net Profit only? How does that benefit the retailer, IE, what's in it for them? A tax credit in the amount of the net profit? How does this translate into the receiver of the "facade grant" only having to pay only 10% to 35% of the cost?
As I know someone who could be interested, I’d like to know how it works before I approach them. Besides, as I’m sure other business people read this, an explanation could get you someone new.
So, it has been four months...any progress on this? Also, no one ever answered my questions above. OK to do it via PM. Though I would think that you would want the info out there so that other companies could see if they could help or not. By the way, we also have a company that can make awnings. But of course, that was told to others already....and meanwhile we lost A-Z and I suspect the new business at Valerios would like the program to get started.
Thanks for posting on this thread, Strider. This is a program I haven't heard anything about until now and it seems to have the potential to be a good one. I look forward to hearing an update from SPAR Council.
Four months and still nothing to show for it...........makes me wonder just what happened to that $70K that SPAR supposedly acquired? I haven't seen much of any enhancements being completed other than the taxpayer funded Main Street Improvements..............heck ............trash cans still not emptied! Springfield.....you got lots of work infront, alley issue's, clean up and the like!
We have heard that certain leaders over at SPAR Council have made calls to various people "suggesting" that they no longer post here on MetroJacksonville. Besides being a huge political mistake, it also means legitimate questions go unanswered. Like this one about the commercial corridor facade program. Heck, I even said that you could answer via PM. I guess the new “SPAR Council†isn’t so new after all and is still thinking that they can control what goes on by not communicating. Too bad really. We have a huge opportunity to come together here and do some good. All it takes is a willingness to do it and the ability to be honest and up-front in a public forum.
Here’s some advice for the leaders of SPAR Council. Step up to the plate and admit that certain actions on the part of some of your executive board and membership was very inappropriate. Admit that some of your recent policies were perhaps too exclusive and off base. Then we can all meet and get some real communication going and stop the nonsense.
Here is an easy way to start that process. Answer the questions about the commercial façade program. If it is struggling, say that. If it has been delayed, say that. If it is going to happen soon, say that. If you need help with it, ask. Be upfront about it right here and right now. Show that you actually want to be a positive force in the community.
who exactly are these "they" people?
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well if the new ED's backstabbing e-mail to COJ, wherein she sold out and undermined a SPAR block captain who was just trying to get some lighting installed in the alleyways, serves as any indication of the attitude of the "new" leadership of SPAR, then not much has changed has it?
I'll frankly be surprised if they can keep the lights on through the end of the year. The LISC grant ain't much. As for membership dues, $50 X 147 = $7,350.00. Not that I really believe they have 147 members anyway, but we'll take their number just for the sake of argument. I'm guesstimating SPAR's 2010 budget has a whopping top line of somewhere south of $100k. By the time you factor in the cost of utilities, phones, computer services, accounting, property taxes and maintenance on the SPAR building, etc., not to mention the cost of conducting meetings and their other activities, there isn't enough to go around.
Unless they have a cash pile saved up for a rainy day, it would seem they're going to come up short in the rather near future. And of course, they're planning to sue Metro Jacksonville (allegedly) for libel, since they had the gall to accurately report the chair-throwing, ball-punching, buffoonery they've engaged in. That is not going to be free, and nor will they ever recover anything from that one, since well, it's all true.
It will be interesting to see how things shake out. I suppose SPAR could borrow money to stay afloat until things turn around, but whatever happens, they surely are going to have to question the wisdom (and more importantly, the expense) of fighting all these petty battles.
QuoteWe have heard that certain leaders over at SPAR Council have made calls to various people "suggesting" that they no longer post here on MetroJacksonville.
Quotethey are also making phone calls to people telling them that they need to avoid the Women's Club.
who are "they"
I don't have any problems with SPAR Council. While I certainly don't agree with a lot of the things some members have done over the years, I also see areas in which the organization can and has been beneficial. I hope that the group can get itself together and do great things for the neighborhood. I think as time goes on, things will improve as the old is recycled with the new. In the meantime, the key is not to let petty neighborhood politics and personal agendas get in the way of real issues facing the community as a whole.
However, if people don't want to post at MJ, that's their right and I have no problem with that and will not lose any sleep over it. In fact, with the discussion that has been taken place, its sort of a relief. Our mission and agenda at MJ is to promote and help create a better Jacksonville. We value communities like Brooklyn, Durkeeville and Murray Hill just as much as we do Springfield, Riverside and San Marco. That will continue to be our goal regardless of what position SPAR Council or any other local organization takes.
With that said, I'm still looking forward to seeing the property enhancement thing get underway. I think it has the potential to be one the better things the organization has implemented in a very long time.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Let me ask this;
What cost would the business owner bear vs. the total cost of the improvements?
It has been mentioned several times that all the potential "donors" had demanded to receive at least their cost outlays back for partipating in the program. So who determines a fair price? Specifically, who ensures that the contractor "donors" are really passing along only their cost? And why are they called donors, if they're being reimbursed for their costs, anyway? They aren't really donating anything if they're being paid for it, are they?
And what portion of the cost would business owners be responsible for? What portion is paid for by grants, and from where, etc.? Just wondering what the financial nuts & bolts are here?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.
If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.
If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.
Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.
Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.
So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.
Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?
Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield
Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.
The wording said “free†correct? Because “free†to most people means “no cost,†or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free†“donations,†while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free†here, or what?
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.
But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.†And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,†e.g., “SPAR was able to secure†and “The products were able to be donated†which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.
As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.
Get where I’m going with this?
So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.
So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.
If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.
Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.
Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.
So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.
Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?
I've got a fairly busy night tonight and was actually going to go out of my way to stop by the MetroJacksonville meeting tonight to discuss this with you....Then I read the post below this one....
Frankly, you are way off base with your understanding of this program. Not sure where you got the info, but it surely was not correct. Contractors are not involved. The donor business are the ones doing their own design/build. For example, Joe's Detailing is getting new fencing and the property owner is paying the fencing company 35% of the cost of the design, custom build, and installation of the new fencing. While still getting 65% of those services for free. In another scenario, if a property owner wanted new signage and also something that the program doesn't offer like landscaping, they could use the money they spent on landscaping as their portion of the 35%. So $3500 on landscaping would equal $6500 of free signage. If they just wanted signage they would pay $3500 cash to the sign company and get $6500 worth of signage for free.
Hypothetically, the donated products could be given to Main Street businesses for free and it sounds great in theory. In reality they could use the $10,000 of free products for the building and then close business the next day and sell their building for $10k more. Tony at A-Z was initially interested in the program and we were willing to work with him to get new signage and paint, but he was going to have to replace his windows out of pocket and he didn't want to do that. Then a few weeks later he closed his business down. We could see that he already had one foot out the door and was being hurt by Uptown and CityKidz. If someone isn't willing to pay 35% to get 65% for free then they likely aren't in it for the long haul.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:03:35 PM
Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield
Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.
The wording said “free†correct? Because “free†to most people means “no cost,†or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free†“donations,†while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free†here, or what?
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.
But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.†And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,†e.g., “SPAR was able to secure†and “The products were able to be donated†which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.
As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.
Get where I’m going with this?
So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.
So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.
This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.
Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.
If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.
Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.
Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.
So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.
Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?
I've got a fairly busy night tonight and was actually going to go out of my way to stop by the MetroJacksonville meeting tonight to discuss this with you....Then I read the post below this one....
Frankly, you are way off base with your understanding of this program. Not sure where you got the info, but it surely was not correct. Contractors are not involved. The donor business are the ones doing their own design/build. For example, Joe's Detailing is getting new fencing and the property owner is paying the fencing company 35% of the cost of the design, custom build, and installation of the new fencing. While still getting 65% of those services for free. In another scenario, if a property owner wanted new signage and also something that the program doesn't offer like landscaping, they could use the money they spent on landscaping as their portion of the 35%. So $3500 on landscaping would equal $6500 of free signage. If they just wanted signage they would pay $3500 cash to the sign company and get $6500 worth of signage for free.
Hypothetically, the donated products could be given to Main Street businesses for free and it sounds great in theory. In reality they could use the $10,000 of free products for the building and then close business the next day and sell their building for $10k more. Tony at A-Z was initially interested in the program and we were willing to work with him to get new signage and paint, but he was going to have to replace his windows out of pocket and he didn't want to do that. Then a few weeks later he closed his business down. We could see that he already had one foot out the door and was being hurt by Uptown and CityKidz. If someone isn't willing to pay 35% to get 65% for free then they likely aren't in it for the long haul.
It seems as though you're throwing a lot of percentages around without saying exactly how they're calculated. So when you say "65%", for example, do you mean 65% of COST or 65% of RETAIL? Because, going back to my original point here, nobody's paying retail these days anyway.
And this is a "yes" or "no" question; Does the contractor get paid in full for the value of their "donation"?
To really assess this, what I want to know is, are any of these "donors" actually donating anything?
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:03:35 PM
Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield
Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.
The wording said “free†correct? Because “free†to most people means “no cost,†or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free†“donations,†while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free†here, or what?
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.
But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.†And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,†e.g., “SPAR was able to secure†and “The products were able to be donated†which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.
As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.
Get where I’m going with this?
So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.
So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.
This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.
Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...
How is the "whole post built on inaccuracies" when I was only QUOTING YOUR OWN POST?
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 01:50:44 PM
Im enjoying the beautiful spring day outside! Welcome to the wondrous amazing wireless world we live in!
CityLife I hope you do drop by the meeting tonight!
It is a beaut isn't it? What is this wireless you speak of?
I would like to attend but I've got a lot going on. If I can't make tonight, I'll be there in the next week or so.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:03:35 PM
Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield
Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.
The wording said “free†correct? Because “free†to most people means “no cost,†or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free†“donations,†while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free†here, or what?
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.
But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.†And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,†e.g., “SPAR was able to secure†and “The products were able to be donated†which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.
As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.
Get where I’m going with this?
So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.
So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.
This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.
Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...
How is the "whole post built on inaccuracies" when I was only QUOTING YOUR OWN POST?
Your interpretation of my posts was built on a lack of understanding of the program.
Let the state of Florida, SPAR, and Main Street business owners worry about the finances of the program.
We are trying our best to help out the Main Street business owners in these tough times.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 01:41:55 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:03:35 PM
Additionally, I felt your reference to the first post in this thread was somewhat disingenuous, as what the first post represented as being the nuts & bolts of the program is in fact, not what ultimately occurred. So let’s recap;
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
Since a select few seem to think SPAR does nothing good for Springfield
Yup. Pretty much hit that nail on the head.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
I thought I would clear the air by highlighting some of the good work going on by the organization. A few months back SPAR was able to secure $70,910 dollars worth of free products for businesses on Main Street.
The wording said “free†correct? Because “free†to most people means “no cost,†or in this case at least meant minimal cost. And yet, that somehow turned into the business owners having to pay the contractors for the full value of these allegedly “free†“donations,†while the contractor likely still gets a tax deduction. So are we just redefining the word “free†here, or what?
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
There is $25,000 worth of decorative fencing, $25,000 worth of new signage, $12,750 worth of paint, and $8,160 worth of new awnings. The products were able to be donated as the result of a state tax program that grants businesses tax credits for donations to distressed commercial corridors.
But unless I’m mistaken, this list of items either never materialized at all, or it turned into some offer for a discount off retail price, with the business owner at best still paying the contractor for the full value of whatever was “donated.†And I noticed that this post used the past-tense when referring to these “donations,†e.g., “SPAR was able to secure†and “The products were able to be donated†which clearly implies that this had all already occurred.
As we now know, it hadn’t occurred, and the products hadn’t yet been donated, and in fact they ultimately weren’t ever donated, as the program was somehow then converted into some kind of pre-negotiated SPAR discount off retail instead of being, as the first post which I am now quoting clearly states, a donation-based program, where the business owner should have received 90% of the improvement for free.
Get where I’m going with this?
So no, actually, since you brought up the first post in this thread, the nature of the costs the business owner has to bear was in fact not disclosed up front, and the entire nature of this program has somehow shifted from a free/donation-based setup into the business owner having to pay the contractor’s full costs, while the contractor gets to clear inventory at no loss (a good thing in this economy) and receives a tax credit to boot.
Quote from: Jth on October 19, 2009, 01:55:05 PM
The program is a shared cost program where businesses have to spend some of their own money in order to receive a portion of the donated products. For overall projects with a total cost of under $3,000 businesses will receive 90% of the products for free while paying for 10% of the cost. For projects over $3,000 the business owner will receive 65% of the products for free while paying 35% of the cost. The maximum amount of free product that is eligible for each business is $10,000.
So how exactly did this turn into the business owner paying the contractor in full for the entire cost of the product? Unless I fell on my head last night and just don’t remember it, it appears that this thing went from 90% free, to 0% free.
This whole post is built on inaccuracies, therefore I can't even respond to it.
Go outside and enjoy the beautiful spring day, the internet and message boards are no way to enjoy life...
How is the "whole post built on inaccuracies" when I was only QUOTING YOUR OWN POST?
Your interpretation of my posts was built on a lack of understanding of the program.
This is getting laughable. I simply went back to your first post on this topic and accurately quoted your own words. For those who aren't aware, CityLife and JTR are the same poster.
So I'm sorry, but there is no lack of understanding. You said "ABC" and then reality wound up being "XYZ." I've asked you to explain the difference, but all you've done is throw around a bunch of figures without disclosing how they're calculated.
And all of my alleged "misinformation" came from directly quoting YOUR OWN POSTS on this subject.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.
If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.
Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.
Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.
So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.
Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?
I've got a fairly busy night tonight and was actually going to go out of my way to stop by the MetroJacksonville meeting tonight to discuss this with you....Then I read the post below this one....
Frankly, you are way off base with your understanding of this program. Not sure where you got the info, but it surely was not correct. Contractors are not involved. The donor business are the ones doing their own design/build. For example, Joe's Detailing is getting new fencing and the property owner is paying the fencing company 35% of the cost of the design, custom build, and installation of the new fencing. While still getting 65% of those services for free. In another scenario, if a property owner wanted new signage and also something that the program doesn't offer like landscaping, they could use the money they spent on landscaping as their portion of the 35%. So $3500 on landscaping would equal $6500 of free signage. If they just wanted signage they would pay $3500 cash to the sign company and get $6500 worth of signage for free.
Hypothetically, the donated products could be given to Main Street businesses for free and it sounds great in theory. In reality they could use the $10,000 of free products for the building and then close business the next day and sell their building for $10k more. Tony at A-Z was initially interested in the program and we were willing to work with him to get new signage and paint, but he was going to have to replace his windows out of pocket and he didn't want to do that. Then a few weeks later he closed his business down. We could see that he already had one foot out the door and was being hurt by Uptown and CityKidz. If someone isn't willing to pay 35% to get 65% for free then they likely aren't in it for the long haul.
It seems as though you're throwing a lot of percentages around without saying exactly how they're calculated. So when you say "65%", for example, do you mean 65% of COST or 65% of RETAIL? Because, going back to my original point here, nobody's paying retail these days anyway.
And this is a "yes" or "no" question; Does the contractor get paid in full for the value of their "donation"?
To really assess this, what I want to know is, are any of these "donors" actually donating anything?
Where does his post say anything at all about contractors? From the beginning the discounts and donations were for material, and design services. The businesses could hire whomever they wanted to for construction purposes.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 02:09:23 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 01:52:14 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 01:39:03 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 12:25:33 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:49:16 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 11:14:24 AM
The Property Enhancement program is fine, just taking longer than anticipated as often happens. We should start seeing some work done in the near future. When there is news to report I'll be sure to report it.
There may also be products to still give out after the first wave of applicants are done with their projects. When the smoke clears, we will be sure to make that information available to all the potential applicants.
Thanks for your interest.
Well, not to go off mentioning the 800lb gorilla in the room or anything, but I think interest in this program seemed to wane significantly when it came out that the "lucky" recipients would actually have to pay for the cost of their own improvements, and that the "program" really amounted to nothing more than a negotiated discount off retail.
That being the case, what exactly is the benefit? Nobody is paying retail prices for building trades in this economic environment anyway, I can probably walk in off the street and get as good a deal. And as long as they're paying for it anyway, doesn't it seem like if a business owner wanted an awning or a facade improvement, or whatever, they'd have already bought one?
How many people have actually signed up for this?
Actually if you go back and look at the first post in this thread, you will see that it is made very clear that businesses will have to foot a portion of the costs. In every piece of material we sent out to prospective businesses that was made very clear as well.
If you are really so concerned with the management of the program come to the SPAR office or meet me somewhere to talk about it.
Or drop by the MJ weekly meeting tonight, you can kill multiple birds with one stone. I'll happily attend and have any discussion you want to have. I don't own a business on Main Street, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.
I asked what I asked because it seems like the nature of this program has shifted quite a bit from what it was originally represented to be, and what it has become now. The extent of a business owners' financial contributions to the improvements were initially represented as being nominal, and that is no longer the case. Surely you won't argue that.
Originally, the improvements were to be heavily subsidized by donations from participating contractors, and then later that somehow turned into, well, now the business owner needs to pay the contractor for all of their costs and nothing was really being donated after all.
So my point was that the deal has clearly changed, and I personally suspect the program won't get that much interest (not enough to make a cohesive visual impact anyway), given that it has gone from a grant/donation type of program to one that really just amounts to some kind of pre-negotiated discount off retail price from certain SPAR-approved contractors.
Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but that really seems to be the case doesn't it?
I've got a fairly busy night tonight and was actually going to go out of my way to stop by the MetroJacksonville meeting tonight to discuss this with you....Then I read the post below this one....
Frankly, you are way off base with your understanding of this program. Not sure where you got the info, but it surely was not correct. Contractors are not involved. The donor business are the ones doing their own design/build. For example, Joe's Detailing is getting new fencing and the property owner is paying the fencing company 35% of the cost of the design, custom build, and installation of the new fencing. While still getting 65% of those services for free. In another scenario, if a property owner wanted new signage and also something that the program doesn't offer like landscaping, they could use the money they spent on landscaping as their portion of the 35%. So $3500 on landscaping would equal $6500 of free signage. If they just wanted signage they would pay $3500 cash to the sign company and get $6500 worth of signage for free.
Hypothetically, the donated products could be given to Main Street businesses for free and it sounds great in theory. In reality they could use the $10,000 of free products for the building and then close business the next day and sell their building for $10k more. Tony at A-Z was initially interested in the program and we were willing to work with him to get new signage and paint, but he was going to have to replace his windows out of pocket and he didn't want to do that. Then a few weeks later he closed his business down. We could see that he already had one foot out the door and was being hurt by Uptown and CityKidz. If someone isn't willing to pay 35% to get 65% for free then they likely aren't in it for the long haul.
It seems as though you're throwing a lot of percentages around without saying exactly how they're calculated. So when you say "65%", for example, do you mean 65% of COST or 65% of RETAIL? Because, going back to my original point here, nobody's paying retail these days anyway.
And this is a "yes" or "no" question; Does the contractor get paid in full for the value of their "donation"?
To really assess this, what I want to know is, are any of these "donors" actually donating anything?
Where does his post say anything at all about contractors? From the beginning the discounts and donations were for material, and design services. The businesses could hire whomever they wanted to for construction purposes.
The construction materials that were donated pursuant to this initiative were initially stated as "free" in his own post, and later it was added that the business owner would pay 10% of the cost of the item.
The reality has turned into that the business owner is now paying multiples of what was originally stated to be a "free" or almost-free donation-based program. So naturally, I have a few questions. You're welcome to answer them if you know.
1: Were these supplies/items as mentioned on his list actually donated?
2: Why did the cost go up?
3: Who's getting the money?
4: Care to explain the difference between the original statement of the program, e.g. "free" or 10% of cost, vs. the reality, which is significantly higher?
5: Is SPAR collecting any money off these donated items?
I have more, but that should be a good start.
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
I don't know the answers, but I'm not the one continuously asking about these donated contractor services when that part of the program never existed. I know that answer.
I assume, he can answer those questions for you. I'm not sure how much priority he is placing on it since it seems like a program that would matter very little to you. Seems like it would be a big waste of time, to me. But that's SPAR's business.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, good luck in trying to solve this mystery...
As it's based on "Community Contribution Tax Credit Program" you should find more info from the links below
http://www.floridaenterprisezone.com/PageView.asp?edit_id=27
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0220/Sec183.HTM
Quote from: AlexS on March 23, 2010, 02:24:56 PM
As it's based on "Community Contribution Tax Credit Program" you should find more info from the links below
http://www.floridaenterprisezone.com/PageView.asp?edit_id=27
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0220/Sec183.HTM
I understand what a friggin' community tax incentive program is, Alex. That's not the point. Why can nobody answer the question here? The two biggies are;
A: Why are the recipient businesses now being charged the cost of items that were originally "donated" or "free"?
and;
B: Who's getting the money?
all these nested quotes are making me awfully dizzy.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.
Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 02:24:18 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, good luck in trying to solve this mystery...
Considering this "free" program was supposed to be SPAR's public display of affection and effectiveness within the neighborhood, I hardly think I'm out of line in asking why certain promises haven't materialized, and I really don't think it should be any "mystery" considering it was originally SPAR that made it a public example in the first place...
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.
Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.
CityLife, that post of mine you're quoting was not aimed at you, but rather at Jason, who was making a rather silly argument about my use of the word "contractor". Nobody builds their own commercial signage, and nobody builds their own commercial awnings, both of which are fully custom items, and my post simply pointed that out. It was not directed at you.
Also, I have never met you, but if we ever did meet, please rest assured I would be more than cordial and would happily buy you a drink and have a pleasant conversation. My questions about what happened to this program aren't aimed at you personally, and I certainly do not have any problem with you personally.
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 02:28:33 PM
Well I have to disagree with that comment Jason.
The program was pointed lifted up for the spotlight as an example of SPAR's importance and good in the neighborhood, by the SPAR representative.
If there are questions about how it works, given the reason why the program is public in the first place, then in all fairness they should be answered.
Stephen, it's a program to help businesses, which in turn will help the neighborhood. I would hope that the businesses that this would actually effect are being told everything they need to know. If someone not in the neighborhood, or is not a business owner that can use this program thinks they have they need to know the ins and outs of the program, then maybe they should go and ask for information, not expect it to be delivered to them on a site with no affiliation, that's all.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:28:58 PM
Quote from: AlexS on March 23, 2010, 02:24:56 PM
As it's based on "Community Contribution Tax Credit Program" you should find more info from the links below
http://www.floridaenterprisezone.com/PageView.asp?edit_id=27
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0220/Sec183.HTM
I understand what a friggin' community tax incentive program is, Alex. That's not the point. Why can nobody answer the question here? The two biggies are;
A: Why are the recipient businesses now being charged the cost of items that were originally "donated" or "free"?
and;
B: Who's getting the money?
If you would read the original post and any literature related to the program, you will see that business owners were always supposed to pay the 35% fee. Not even sure what you are implying.
It has been spelled out pretty clearly who gets the money. Property owners on Main Street get the donated product. The money that they have to pay, you know the 35% that has been talked about all along would go to any business that will make an improvement to their building. I will re-iterate a point I made in a prior post that you probably glossed over. If X business owner wants $10K worth of signage from Quality Sign, he has has to pay someone the equivalent to 35% of the value of the donated product. So he could pay a landscape company, a lighting company, and artist, or whoever to improve his building by that amount. Its not that complicated...
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 02:35:52 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 02:28:33 PM
Well I have to disagree with that comment Jason.
The program was pointed lifted up for the spotlight as an example of SPAR's importance and good in the neighborhood, by the SPAR representative.
If there are questions about how it works, given the reason why the program is public in the first place, then in all fairness they should be answered.
Stephen, it's a program to help businesses, which in turn will help the neighborhood. I would hope that the businesses that this would actually effect are being told everything they need to know. If someone not in the neighborhood, or is not a business owner that can use this program thinks they have they need to know the ins and outs of the program, then maybe they should go and ask for information, not expect it to be delivered to them on a site with no affiliation, that's all.
Then why did SPAR go around posting this up as a shining example of its good deeds for the neighborhood, on that same "site with no affiliation"? So SPAR has no trouble using this site for its own free public relations needs, but nobody is allowed to question anything that SPAR originally posted here, if it smells fishy?
That makes sense to you?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:35:45 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.
Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.
CityLife, that post of mine you're quoting was not aimed at you, but rather at Jason, who was making a rather silly argument about my use of the word "contractor". Nobody builds their own commercial signage, and nobody builds their own commercial awnings, both of which are fully custom items, and my post simply pointed that out. It was not directed at you.
Also, I have never met you, but if we ever did meet, please rest assured I would be more than cordial and would happily buy you a drink and have a pleasant conversation. My questions about what happened to this program aren't aimed at you personally, and I certainly do not have any problem with you personally.
Right, Chris, I think a better term would be subcontractors, which could be electricians, plumbers, awning or signage providers. I don't want people to get confused thinking an outfit has been hired to oversee all of the renovations.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 02:40:07 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:28:58 PM
Quote from: AlexS on March 23, 2010, 02:24:56 PM
As it's based on "Community Contribution Tax Credit Program" you should find more info from the links below
http://www.floridaenterprisezone.com/PageView.asp?edit_id=27
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=CH0220/Sec183.HTM
I understand what a friggin' community tax incentive program is, Alex. That's not the point. Why can nobody answer the question here? The two biggies are;
A: Why are the recipient businesses now being charged the cost of items that were originally "donated" or "free"?
and;
B: Who's getting the money?
If you would read the original post and any literature related to the program, you will see that business owners were always supposed to pay the 35% fee. Not even sure what you are implying.
It has been spelled out pretty clearly who gets the money. Property owners on Main Street get the donated product. The money that they have to pay, you know the 35% that has been talked about all along would go to any business that will make an improvement to their building. I will re-iterate a point I made in a prior post that you probably glossed over. If X business owner wants $10K worth of signage from Quality Sign, he has has to pay someone the equivalent to 35% of the value of the donated product. So he could pay a landscape company, a lighting company, and artist, or whoever to improve his building by that amount. Its not that complicated...
Well, actually, it started off at 10% per your own post, but ok.
So as I understand it now, I can get a $10k sign FOR FREE if I spend $3,500.00 doing other improvements to my building?
So I would owe the signage contractor $0.00?
I would owe SPAR $0.00?
I would get to pick whatever other outside contractor of my own choosing to conduct the $3,500.00 worth of additional improvements?
There is no list of contractors I must choose from?
So the general concensus appears to be...........$70K SPAR Council got, has yet to be handed out and there has been no business's that have benefited from this supposed Grant to SPAR? Has any business gotten anything from this program or is it just the selected/annointed in Springfield?
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:35:45 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.
Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.
CityLife, that post of mine you're quoting was not aimed at you, but rather at Jason, who was making a rather silly argument about my use of the word "contractor". Nobody builds their own commercial signage, and nobody builds their own commercial awnings, both of which are fully custom items, and my post simply pointed that out. It was not directed at you.
Also, I have never met you, but if we ever did meet, please rest assured I would be more than cordial and would happily buy you a drink and have a pleasant conversation. My questions about what happened to this program aren't aimed at you personally, and I certainly do not have any problem with you personally.
Right, Chris, I think a better term would be subcontractors, which could be electricians, plumbers, awning or signage providers. I don't want people to get confused thinking an outfit has been hired to oversee all of the renovations.
Right, I think we agree with each other, we were just getting caught up in language. I tend think in terms of legal relationships, where a sub is only a sub if there's a GC or another sub above him. In this case, whoever it is will be hired directly by the owner, so it was appropriate to just say contractor. I did not mean to imply that there was a GC/sub relationship, or to cause any additional confusion.
Quote from: CS Foltz on March 23, 2010, 02:48:37 PM
So the general concensus appears to be...........$70K SPAR Council got, has yet to be handed out and there has been no business's that have benefited from this supposed Grant to SPAR? Has any business gotten anything from this program or is it just the selected/annointed in Springfield?
That has been my understanding, CS Foltz.
Has there actually been a single grant that has been disbursed yet? Anybody?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:51:29 PM
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:35:45 PM
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 02:31:26 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:20:02 PM
Also, we're talking signage amongst other things, so who builds their own commercial signage? I would suspect nobody. CLEARLY a contractor is involved there, there's no way around it that I'm aware of...at least not if you want the result to be considered an "improvement"...
Chris, I've tried to be patient and cordial with you, but you are really grasping at straws. The sign company is Quality Sign, you know the guys who did the signs for what was formerly Alltel Stadium, the ones who do many of the signs on downtown skyscrapers. So yea, they do design and build their own signage. You CLEARLY are a little off base here.
Like I said, go enjoy the beautiful weather out there and let the State, SPAR, and Main Street Property Owners/Business owners worry about the program. If I see you at a MetroJacksonville meeting or something I can explain particular details, otherwise its a waste of time arguing. I know I've got more pressing matters to attend to.
CityLife, that post of mine you're quoting was not aimed at you, but rather at Jason, who was making a rather silly argument about my use of the word "contractor". Nobody builds their own commercial signage, and nobody builds their own commercial awnings, both of which are fully custom items, and my post simply pointed that out. It was not directed at you.
Also, I have never met you, but if we ever did meet, please rest assured I would be more than cordial and would happily buy you a drink and have a pleasant conversation. My questions about what happened to this program aren't aimed at you personally, and I certainly do not have any problem with you personally.
Right, Chris, I think a better term would be subcontractors, which could be electricians, plumbers, awning or signage providers. I don't want people to get confused thinking an outfit has been hired to oversee all of the renovations.
Right, I think we agree with each other, we were just getting caught up in language. I tend think in terms of legal relationships, where a sub is only a sub if there's a GC or another sub above him. In this case, whoever it is will be hired directly by the owner, so it was appropriate to just say contractor. I did not mean to imply that there was a GC/sub relationship, or to cause any additional confusion.
Sure, so as I've seen it....
If you receive signage, Quality Signs will provide the product and the installation, which would be the same with the awning company and I assume, fencing company.
Paint would be the material only, and the business would have to hire a painter.
Obviously, for the majority of these businesses the improvements probably won't or shouldn't stop there, so they will have to hire others to make improvements, which would not be affiliated with the donated items or services.
There does need to be a set of priorities established, and I hope to see them choose the correct ones, soon.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:55:53 PM
Quote from: CS Foltz on March 23, 2010, 02:48:37 PM
So the general concensus appears to be...........$70K SPAR Council got, has yet to be handed out and there has been no business's that have benefited from this supposed Grant to SPAR? Has any business gotten anything from this program or is it just the selected/annointed in Springfield?
That has been my understanding, CS Foltz.
Has there actually been a single grant that has been disbursed yet? Anybody?
If you would go back and read my first post today you would see that we are actively working with a few businesses to get them the products. When the details are ready to be released they will be.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 03:02:54 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 02:55:53 PM
Quote from: CS Foltz on March 23, 2010, 02:48:37 PM
So the general concensus appears to be...........$70K SPAR Council got, has yet to be handed out and there has been no business's that have benefited from this supposed Grant to SPAR? Has any business gotten anything from this program or is it just the selected/annointed in Springfield?
That has been my understanding, CS Foltz.
Has there actually been a single grant that has been disbursed yet? Anybody?
If you would go back and read my first post today you would see that we are actively working with a few businesses to get them the products. When the details are ready to be released they will be.
Jeremy, I am reading your posts, they're just not answering the questions.
So I will take it that your response is a "No" and that no grants have actually been disbursed?
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 02:59:57 PM
Not that it helps to pick on poor Jeremy who is probably the one positive person at the organization, trying to actually get something done.
I know, I kind of feel bad, as he's apparently the only nice one over there. I really do owe him a drink sometime, and I don't think he's responsible for the current condition of this grant program. I again reiterate I have no problem with him personally at all, and am not aiming any of my comments at him personally.
Sometimes it just sucks to be the messenger.
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
Jeremy.
Thanks for both taking the time to explain it, as well as your work in trying to get it done. You have a very challenging environment that you are working in, and it wouldnt be fair to you not to recognize that fact or even notice that you seem to be plugging along very consistently despite the adversity.
I enjoyed taking a walk with you around the neighborhood last week or so.
Its got to be tough to deal with so many self inflicted problems on behalf of an organization when you had no part in the architecture of the problems in the first place.
True, which is why we may need to hold off in thinking certain things must be disingenuous if we don't get the answers we like on demand, no matter which organization they come from.
Mayor Peyton,
When will the courthouse be completed?
President Obama,
When will we withdraw from Iraq?
Just giving you a hard time Chris, like I said we will put the information out there when we are ready. We are actively working to make things happen and some projects should be breaking ground shortly.
I'll take that beer at the next MetroJacksonville meeting. A Duke's might ease the pain of having to deal with all of you madmen. j/k ;)
^Hopefully Valerio's is one of them...
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
Jeremy.
Thanks for both taking the time to explain it, as well as your work in trying to get it done. You have a very challenging environment that you are working in, and it wouldnt be fair to you not to recognize that fact or even notice that you seem to be plugging along very consistently despite the adversity.
I enjoyed taking a walk with you around the neighborhood last week or so.
Its got to be tough to deal with so many self inflicted problems on behalf of an organization when you had no part in the architecture of the problems in the first place.
True, which is why we may need to hold off in thinking certain things must be disingenuous if we don't get the answers we like on demand, no matter which organization they come from.
We're only talking about Jeremy, Jason, not SPAR. I don't think HE is responsible for the mess over there, and nor do I think he has the answers to the questions I've asked, and I doubt they'd even tell him if he went and asked.
But aside from him, the rest of that organization is about as disingenuous as you can get. To wit, here we have a much-publicized grant program that a year later hasn't disbursed a single grant, despite SPAR having already received the money. What am I supposed to say to that? "Good job!"?
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
Jeremy.
Thanks for both taking the time to explain it, as well as your work in trying to get it done. You have a very challenging environment that you are working in, and it wouldnt be fair to you not to recognize that fact or even notice that you seem to be plugging along very consistently despite the adversity.
I enjoyed taking a walk with you around the neighborhood last week or so.
Its got to be tough to deal with so many self inflicted problems on behalf of an organization when you had no part in the architecture of the problems in the first place.
No matter what side of the Springfield spectrum people are on, they all agree that one of the biggest issues with SPAR is communication. There are a lot of good things the organization does that go unrecognized, or unsaid. Also, many contentious issues were exacerbated by failing to communicate properly. That is something that is actively being worked on and should be improved in the near future. The SPAR Facebook page is a start.
I enjoyed the walk as well. I am not to familiar with the artists in the area and it was nice getting to know where many of them live. It would be great if they would become more visible within the community.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 03:20:18 PM
Mayor Peyton,
When will the courthouse be completed?
President Obama,
When will we withdraw from Iraq?
Just giving you a hard time Chris, like I said we will put the information out there when we are ready. We are actively working to make things happen and some projects should be breaking ground shortly.
I'll take that beer at the next MetroJacksonville meeting. A Duke's might ease the pain of having to deal with all of you madmen. j/k ;)
I'll be there to buy it, you should definitely stop by. Again, no hard feelings, and nothing personal against you at all. The meetings are fun. Well, when they're not getting attacked by 20 drunken 'ladies' trying to punch Stephen in the balls. LOL
Well, it was started in what? September or October, so that was hardly a year ago. And these things take time....there still has to be COA applications for anyone wanting to make an improvement.
I'm hardly a cheerleader for SPAR, but things don't always go as smoothly as planned, and I doubt you would be all over Jeremy and this particular program had it been done by anyone else.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 03:26:46 PM
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 03:05:11 PM
Jeremy.
Thanks for both taking the time to explain it, as well as your work in trying to get it done. You have a very challenging environment that you are working in, and it wouldnt be fair to you not to recognize that fact or even notice that you seem to be plugging along very consistently despite the adversity.
I enjoyed taking a walk with you around the neighborhood last week or so.
Its got to be tough to deal with so many self inflicted problems on behalf of an organization when you had no part in the architecture of the problems in the first place.
True, which is why we may need to hold off in thinking certain things must be disingenuous if we don't get the answers we like on demand, no matter which organization they come from.
We're only talking about Jeremy, Jason, not SPAR. I don't think HE is responsible for the mess over there, and nor do I think he has the answers to the questions I've asked, and I doubt they'd even tell him if he went and asked.
But aside from him, the rest of that organization is about as disingenuous as you can get. To wit, here we have a much-publicized grant program that a year later hasn't disbursed a single grant, despite SPAR having already received the money. What am I supposed to say to that? "Good job!"?
Uh... I know every in and out about the program, if there was a question to be answered I could answer it.
SPAR doesn't have a dollar of money from the program. We are essentially a conduit for businesses to donate products to other businesses.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 03:12:13 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 02:59:57 PM
Not that it helps to pick on poor Jeremy who is probably the one positive person at the organization, trying to actually get something done.
I know, I kind of feel bad, as he's apparently the only nice one over there. I really do owe him a drink sometime, and I don't think he's responsible for the current condition of this grant program. I again reiterate I have no problem with him personally at all, and am not aiming any of my comments at him personally.
Sometimes it just sucks to be the messenger.
Aw, come on ChrisuFGator, I think you kind of enjoy delivering your messages!
I know you've verbally swatted at me a couple of time on MJ...maybe I should come drink a beer with you and CityLife.
Seriously (I was serious about the beer, too), everyone should step back and take a deep breath. Things WILL change at SPAR Council, but change is going to take some time. I imagine there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes right now that will please (to some small degree) even that organization's harshest critics. I'm not saying everyone is going to be happy about everything that SPAR does or supports, but that there will be a new attitude at the very least.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 03:31:35 PM
Well, it was started in what? September or October, so that was hardly a year ago. And these things take time....there still has to be COA applications for anyone wanting to make an improvement.
I'm hardly a cheerleader for SPAR, but things don't always go as smoothly as planned, and I doubt you would be all over Jeremy and this particular program had it been done by anyone else.
The program was announced in September, and it was stated at that time it had already been in the hopper for a number of months. So yeah, considering we're nearly in April of the following year, it really has been that long.
Regarding the rest of your post, admittedly I do have a special place in my heart for SPAR. But I'm entitled, as they certainly earned it. And I'm not all over Jeremy, I have no problem with him personally at all. Again, sometimes it just sucks to be the messenger.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 03:21:53 PM
^Hopefully Valerio's is one of them...
Yes it is. It would have been done a long time ago if not for a certain paint company in your neck of the woods (workwise).
Glen is working on some stuff now and will hopefully get rolling soon.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 03:31:35 PM
Well, it was started in what? September or October, so that was hardly a year ago. And these things take time....there still has to be COA applications for anyone wanting to make an improvement.
I'm hardly a cheerleader for SPAR, but things don't always go as smoothly as planned, and I doubt you would be all over Jeremy and this particular program had it been done by anyone else.
The program was announced in September, and it was stated at that time it had already been in the hopper for a number of months. So yeah, considering we're nearly in April of the following year, it really has been that long.
Regarding the rest of your post, admittedly I do have a special place in my heart for SPAR. But I'm entitled, as they certainly earned it. And I'm not all over Jeremy, I have no problem with him personally at all. Again, sometimes it just sucks to be the messenger.
The only thing that sucks about being the messenger is the waste of time. I can handle the heat though. No sweating here...
Quote from: Miss Fixit on March 23, 2010, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 03:12:13 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 23, 2010, 02:59:57 PM
Not that it helps to pick on poor Jeremy who is probably the one positive person at the organization, trying to actually get something done.
I know, I kind of feel bad, as he's apparently the only nice one over there. I really do owe him a drink sometime, and I don't think he's responsible for the current condition of this grant program. I again reiterate I have no problem with him personally at all, and am not aiming any of my comments at him personally.
Sometimes it just sucks to be the messenger.
Aw, come on ChrisuFGator, I think you kind of enjoy delivering your messages!
I know you've verbally swatted at me a couple of time on MJ...maybe I should come drink a beer with you and CityLife.
Seriously (I was serious about the beer, too), everyone should step back and take a deep breath. Things WILL change at SPAR Council, but change is going to take some time. I imagine there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes right now that will please (to some small degree) even that organization's harshest critics. I'm not saying everyone is going to be happy about everything that SPAR does or supports, but that there will be a new attitude at the very least.
I do hope they change. I was not much heartened by their email to COJ, sandbagging the block captain who dared to send a public safety issue to a public official without kissing SPAR's ring first. That started to seem like more of the same.
Quote from: CityLife on March 23, 2010, 03:38:26 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: jason_contentdg on March 23, 2010, 03:31:35 PM
Well, it was started in what? September or October, so that was hardly a year ago. And these things take time....there still has to be COA applications for anyone wanting to make an improvement.
I'm hardly a cheerleader for SPAR, but things don't always go as smoothly as planned, and I doubt you would be all over Jeremy and this particular program had it been done by anyone else.
The program was announced in September, and it was stated at that time it had already been in the hopper for a number of months. So yeah, considering we're nearly in April of the following year, it really has been that long.
Regarding the rest of your post, admittedly I do have a special place in my heart for SPAR. But I'm entitled, as they certainly earned it. And I'm not all over Jeremy, I have no problem with him personally at all. Again, sometimes it just sucks to be the messenger.
The only thing that sucks about being the messenger is the waste of time. I can handle the heat though. No sweating here...
In your case, I imagine the thing that sucks the most is who you're delivering the message for. LOL! Again, no hard feelings personally. Not such a fan of your employer though. Which reminds me, the bartender at 3 Layers was recently asked to deliver a SPAR message to Stephen, I wonder if Stephen's gotten it yet?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 23, 2010, 03:41:06 PM
Which reminds me, the bartender at 3 Layers was recently asked to deliver a SPAR message to Stephen, I wonder if Stephen's gotten it yet?
what, these people can't use email?
OK, All I really wanted was an answer or two and I got this when I finally made it home! Citylife, you are in a very difficult position as I believe you were "forced" to announce this program earlier than planned as something good had to be announced. And, if I understand this program in any way, it is not an easy one to make work. In addition, no one typically likes to give answers over there at SPAR Council, so it makes it doubly hard. You should have just posted (even VIA PM) an answer to me yesterday....just sayin'.... I also sent you a PM.
Miss Fixit: good to hear there are changes coming. We can only hope that they are really changes and that they include the cessation of certain polices or it won't help much. Oh, and improved communication might help a bit too!
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 23, 2010, 05:18:01 PM
what, these people can't use email?
Actually, many of them do not. It's part of the digital divide, which just adds to the miscommunication on both sides. Many are them (us? because I often feel this way myself) do not keep up with the world in real-time and do not understand why anyone would want to.
It's kind of ironic that so many individuals who were willing to brave the "wild west" of Springfield in its early days are now so perplexed and possibly terrified of the "wild west" that exists here on the internet.
i suppose that's fair enough--i tend to dislike technology despite my dependence on it (i suspect my mennonite upbringing is partly to blame for that), but on the other hand asking a bartender to pass a message along just seems so petty feud to me.
It looks more like a soap opera than the wild west
even soap operas have better acting.
and more realistic scripts! Who could make this stuff up?
This is why it is important to ask questions...
I remember dealing with Mr. Sweet. I actually liked him and was surprised when this came out. By the way, Catlins, the old Jewerly store (now a tax place) and the old Epicurean all received that facade grant. We restored the front porches on the Epicurean to their current and original configuration with it. Regardless of whether this program was mis-managed or not, some good did come from it. And there were a considerable number of hoops to jump through to get it, which makes the fraud all the more surprising as it seemed like there were checks and balances in place. Perhaps things were changed at some point.
The fact that so few were done is the issue. Had the 95k been used on commercial facades, perhaps Main Street would look better than it does now!
Well all that will change when the SPAR Council money is handed for store front upgrades right? Last posted was supposed to be $70 K ............about 4 months ago from what I remember and I'm still waiting to see something happen............but thats just me!
Thanks big guy............forgot about Carls and did not know about the others.......so something has taken place! Maybe not as much as could be done, but it appears to have started!
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 24, 2010, 02:39:09 PM
even soap operas have better acting.
Acting? Is that what it was when a druken mob from SPAR assaulted the MJ staff at 3 Layers?
Believe me, that was some act! What more would I expect from these folks? I normally don't comment in the SPAR threads, hell I live in St. Johns, but if this is how they treat strangers... well?OCKLAWAHA
but we love seeing you around, Ock!
HA! HA! Remember I have high friends in places...
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on March 28, 2010, 07:47:55 PM
Don't forget that Carl's Restaurant and the Lee Harvey Gallery also got the facade grant.
As did 9th and Main, and Jim Brewer's building on the corner of 8th and Main.
Also the Adcock building where the closed Pawn Shop was.
The awnings and the parking lot repave at 1001 N Main were a result of the facade grant also. Boy was I glad to have the parking lot redone.