French national railway interested in bringing high-speed rail to Texas
07:20 PM CDT on Friday, September 25, 2009
By RODGER JONES / The Dallas Morning News
rmjones@dallasnews.com
The French national railway SNCF has filed a detailed proposal with the Federal Railroad Administration stating an interest in operating high-speed rail in Texas.
The route in question would run from DFW through Austin and into San Antonio. It would not be the Gulf Coast route that's been on the USDOT's official list of 10 prospective HSR corridors or the much-promoted Dallas-Houston link (including the Texas T-Bone). But Houston could be in the distance.
From Yonah Freemark on the TransportPolitic blog:
At $13.8 billion in construction costs, SNCF expects benefits to outweigh public infrastructure costs by 170% over a period of 15 years. This project would have the highest rate of return of any of the corridors profiled in the studies presented here.
Quoting now from the proposal, as posted on a federal website:
Speeds of up to 220 mph for HSR services are expected to generate a significant number of new trips as well as draw from the air and auto modes. Access to HSR services for both residents and visitors will be convenient due to 7 proposed stations conveniently located close to medium and large city populations, city central business districts and airports to attract residents, providing convenient and cost competitive alternative to driving and air travel.
This HST 220 concept keeps pace for a further complete Texan HS network ("Triangle" or "Tbone" type) involving Houston, once the pertinence of HS services proven. Meanwhile, the existing corridors will serve as key feeders.
TxDOT spokesman Chris Lippincott said the SNCF filing "is the first expression we're aware of" from a potential investor-operator interested in Texas high-speed rail.
The filing isn't related to applications for stimulus money, but in response to Congressman John Mica's interest in finding out what private companies think they can make money in the U.S. That provision was inserted in legislation last year, and the French filing was in response, said FRA spokesman Warren Flatau.
SNCF's chairman has been talking up his company's interest in developing HSR in the U.S., but now it's officially stated. The other corridors cited by SNCF are in Florida, California and the Midwest.
Over the summer, the state filed applications for a chunk of $13 billion in rail-improvement stimulus money, including planning funds for high-speed corridors. The current Texas Eagle route was one of them. The DFW-San Antonio link is essentially the Eagle route.
The French company is a world leader in HSR technology and runs the TGV, which has set the world speed record for a rail vehicle -- more than 350 mph.
The interest in Texas runs counter to thinking that service here would be unprofitable. Commentators and experts have said -- perhaps thinking that this is the Texas of Giant -- that we're too spread out and that HSR service is made for the more densely populated Northeast. Of course that's not us, but anyone who's ever driven I-35 from Dallas to San Antonio can see the urbanization of this state -- three of the nation's 10 most populous cities and growing.
The French may have something here.
The firm mentions Florida as another local they would seek for HSR development.
I would bet dollars to donuts that what they have in mind is not Orlando to St Pete!
Interesting, SNCF hasn't had a bomb this big dropped on them since Hitler visited the Eifle Tower. You know, in these fairly compact 200-500 mile trips with 3 of the nations top 10 cities, plus a score of other big ones, it just might make it. Railroading is so capital intensive that considering any passenger system without a bunch of government dollars has only slight possibilities of turning a dime.
Let them have at it, but I wouldn't touch it as an investment.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 02, 2009, 01:24:32 PM
I would bet dollars to donuts that what they have in mind is not Orlando to St Pete!
Actually, that's exactly what they bid on!
QuoteFlorida would be well suited to high-speed rail according to SNCF’s analysis. For $20.5 billion, the company proposes a Tampa-Orlando link by 2018 and connections west to St. Petersburg and south to Miami by 2025.
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/09/19/breaking-sncf-proposes-development-of-high-speed-rail-in-midwest-texas-florida-and-california-corridors/
Faye.........got no problem with private enterprise getting into the people moving enterprise! More than likely it would be done quicker,cleaner and did I say quicker? Cost effective transportation for an area is not something that should be frowned on but encouraged!! True HSR is not about moving in ten mile increments but in hundred mile plus stages. To me that is where HSR would have an edge but that requires infrastructure that is not in place yet. Current tracks in this part of the world might handle 100 mph speeds but I don't think that they could safely handle 150 or better, just not designed with that in mind! So like I said..........private enterprise can go for it, investors wish to make money on their investment so I think they would be more inclined to cross all T's and dot all I's..........I have high hopes it takes off!
I don't understand the logic of leaving Houston (the fourth most popupus metropolis in the nation) out of the initial bid.
Maybe Houston is the texas equivalent of Jacksonville?
Houston is KING in Texas. More populous than any other Texas Metro; Dallas/Fort worth coming in second. Austin is just over a 2 hr drive away. Perhaps it is because Enron was based in Houston? Vendetta?Galveston is a short hop away as well.
I have been many times for business and that place is bustling and vibrant. They are even building houses! Something anyone from Jax who is in construction can get a chuckle out of.
Connecting Austin and Houston would seem to be the most logical first step in any Texas HSR system. Perhaps it has to do with the layout of existing rail lines and/or ROW issues?
(Uh Oh.... Did I just validate/endorse ORL/Tampa HSR?)
Metro Dallas/Fort Worth is larger than metro Houston. While smaller, Austin and San Antonio aren't holes in the walls and are fairly close to one another. Plus, with them you bring in huge tourism, military, educational and governmental element. There's also a string of decent sized communities along that path, like Waco and Round Rock, while the stretch between Dallas and Houston is pretty rural. With that said, I can see how an argument can be made for the path picked by SNCF for the initial phase.
lake I concur! Makes sense from a numbers point of view, that is potential ridership. Geography wise fairly flat and not a lot of exotic engineering required ....so has a real chance.........I hope it takes off big time!
And the Tampa to Orlando route isn't flat?
Tampa to Orlando is relatively flat..........I just take exception for what will be a feeder system for Mouseville using Federal Funds! This is my and your money for something that does not benefit the state as a whole. Private Enterprise I think is a better scenario for that part of the world and the rest of Florida may get spin off from it.............like Jacksonville to Miami. That would be true HSR rather than what has been proposed which is a Airport to one city feeder that totals about 75 miles. That would cost 2.5 Billion? Not really sure about the cost total but am sure about the purpose of said system............Mouseville feeder!
Why do you keep thinking that the Tampa-Orlando route is soley that?
It has always been planned as the beginning of a system within Florida that will be extendxed to Miami...and possibly to Jax, where it would tie into other national routes.
Got to start somewhere!
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_aPcD7fXF5Uc/Roh85y8Bz_I/AAAAAAAAAtw/5ubsAs8NC9E/AD-TE-1926+Cromoscope.jpg)
HEY! I'VE GOT AN IDEA! LET'S REINVENT THE WHEEL! Quote from: tufsu1 on October 04, 2009, 10:38:26 AM
And the Tampa to Orlando route isn't flat?
You might find this interesting old friend, but the worse grades on the old Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line, were not in the Piedmont, they were just outside of Lakeland, FL! In the days of superpower steam, the biggest locomotives worked out of Tampa on those long heavy rock trains, over those grades. Quote from: buckethead on October 02, 2009, 10:44:58 PM
I don't understand the logic of leaving Houston (the fourth most popupus metropolis in the nation) out of the initial bid.
(http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~txellis/photos/ruffin-03.jpg)
Texas Electric Ry Map, the south line of Dallas LRT runs right on the grade. (http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/te906.jpg)
Here we see something I'd love to doccument in Jacksonville, Interurban or Trolley Freight. Lakelander and I suspect there was such a thing as one line clearly went into the Talleyrand Dock area... ?? It would increase our status for reconstruction grant consideration.(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/3524029397_da1b98089e_o.jpg)
Unlike Jacksonville, Plano, TX., saved the TERY depot and power house, and they have a first class white glove museum and archives, plus this for Texas Electric Combination Car/Railway Post Office/Coach/smoker. Today the new LRT pulls in on the other side of this building! If you consider that Dallas-Waco-Austin-San Antonio, are all in a row, all big city towns or big university towns, or both. In that respect that line would be like Jacksonville-Daytona-Melbourne-West Palm-Ft. Lauderdale-Miami... String O' Pearls. There is also an existing right of way, from Dallas - Waco, that was the mainline of the TEXAS ELECTRIC RY. A major interurban road, the whole right of way follows the high power transmission lines. Houston is sort of an island, like Tampa would be without Orlando, the surrounding areas etc... Just sort of all by itself and nearly as far as FTW - SAT. Quote from: tufsu1 on October 04, 2009, 01:54:27 PM
Why do you keep thinking that the Tampa-Orlando route is soley that?
It has always been planned as the beginning of a system within Florida that will be extendxed to Miami...and possibly to Jax, where it would tie into other national routes.
Got to start somewhere!
For me it's not the Orlando-Tampa thing that drives me nuts, its the determination to by-pass 90% of the population between the two, in trade for a mouse. A very rich and influential mouse, a mouse not beyond all sorts of hijinks's, in fact A RAT! Let them pay for their own branchline as the Mainline does something smart like connect everything from Daytona - Orlando - Tampa. Running from Orlando's airport is certain death as far as area residents are concerned. Another train to nowhere. OCKLAWAHA
Not that I think the train is planned for/by the Mouse, but they are the largest employer in Central Florida....and they contribute a significant chunk of change to the state coffers in terms of sales taxes, bed taxes, etc...then there's all the trips employees and visitors make...so why not serve them with a publicly funded transportation service?
^Personally, I don't have a problem with Disney being served by a publicly funded transportation service. However, this screams for commuter rail (or something more localized), not HSR with limited stops in areas where Disney's 55,000 employees don't live, work, shop or play. Seriously, how many of Disney's employees will be willing to drive out of their way to Lakeland, Tampa or Orlando's airport and drop up to $30 daily, on a one-way ticket to get to work? I know several and the rat isn't paying them that much to afford such an endeavor.
Gentlemen.............I have no problem with Mouseville building their own railroad nor do I have a problem with Private Enterprise doing it themselves. I have a problem in where and for what reason. What is being proposed is a feeder system to Mouseville from the Orlando Airport..........the other proposed stops are just window dressing which kinda reminds me of "Johnny and his smoke and mirror routine"! I thought the whole point of this proposed system was HSR? To me that translates into "High Speed Rail" and trip length long enough to get something up to a reasonable speed. Many stops on a 73 mile long stretch does not get the whatever up to a running speed that would make use of high speed movement. What is more to the point is "Light rail" which is just what any system installed in that region in truth would be. It may just be a matter of semantics but I am looking at 2 different types of systems with the commonality between them of "Moving People". Both systems do the same thing and its obvious to me something needs to be put in place but this is not a true test or example of HSR.............at least that's my take on the situation!
Light rail is not meant to go 73 miles!
Commuter rail, with both local and express trains, is the answer guys. This stretch is nearly identical in length to South Florida's Tri-Rail.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 05, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
Light rail is not meant to go 73 miles!
tufsu1, REALLY? Have you ridden some of the LRT systems? Dallas regular operations are very near 70 mph. Under the hood, light rail cars are the same basic animal as the HSR electric trains. Even back in the day...There is no reason not to hit 70 - 80 or 90 mph, on private right of way.QuoteEarly Light Rail on the Cincinnati and Lake Erie Ry,
These interurban cars embodied the latest in Art-deco styling and were equipped with numerous amenities including leather bucket seats with high headrests. Half were built as lounges to provide parlor car first class comfort. In order to promote the cars, the C&LE staged a race between Red Devil #126 and an airplane. The car achieved a speed of 97 miles per hour and "won" the highly publicized race.[8,p189 photo] Unfortunately, and typical of most interurbans, considerable open country operation was on side-of-road track and considerable urban operation was on track embedded in town streets with tight radius turns, so the Red Devils had to contend with automobile traffic and would rarely achieve these speeds in day-to-day operation, but in open country, particularly existing on the Springfield-Toledo division, they operated up to ninety miles per hour if behind schedule.
OCKLAWAHA
Express/Light Rail is more of whats needed in Orlando! HSR would be self defeated by stops required to load and unload.........HSR is more of a long range system in excess of 100 miles out rather than 100 miles in!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 05, 2009, 10:41:13 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 05, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
Light rail is not meant to go 73 miles!
tufsu1, REALLY? Have you ridden some of the LRT systems? Dallas regular operations are very near 70 mph. Under the hood, light rail cars are the same basic animal as the HSR electric trains. Even back in the day...There is no reason not to hit 70 - 80 or 90 mph, on private right of way.
Ock...I never said 70mph...I said not meant for 70+ miles....LRT is meant for distances inside urban areas.
The Baltimore line is 27 miles long and iit takes over 1 hour to travel from one end to the other (because of downtown traffic and all the stops).
Quote from: CS Foltz on October 05, 2009, 12:43:29 PM
Express/Light Rail is more of whats needed in Orlando! HSR would be self defeated by stops required to load and unload.........HSR is more of a long range system in excess of 100 miles out rather than 100 miles in!
once again...this is the start....the fully planned Tampa-Orlando-Miami route would be 300+ miles
I agree......Light Rail for Orlando/St Pete but HSR for Miami leg!
Lake has said commuter rail (and I think that's what Ock means too)....and I don't disagree that it is a viable option.
Yes commuter rail on current ROW. Sunrail.
Quote from: stephendare on October 05, 2009, 01:48:13 PM
So tufsu, High Speed Rail or Light Rail?
I vote for all...if we're going to do HSR in this country, then FL needs to be a part of it....here's what I say
Orlando region - commuter rail on CSX and LRT
Tampa region - commuter rail on CSX and LRT
Jax region - commuter rail and streetcar/LRT
Orlando-Tampa - commuter rail and Amtrak on CSX and/or HSR
Orlando-Miami - HSR
Tampa-Miami - HSR
Orlando-Jax - HSR
Jax-Miami - Amtrak on FEC and/or HSR
I'm for all (to a degree) as well. I believe instead of HSR between Tampa and Orlando, commuter rail on track that allows up to 90mph speeds with a mix of local and express trains would better serve that region. Nevertheless, I think the better question is if you are working with limited funds, which projects should be a priority.
interestingly, the Tampa-Orlando HSR line will have local and express routes as well. The documentation assumes
4 express trips per day (Tampa to OIA directly)
16 regular trips (all stops)
17 Disney Shuttles (OIA - Disney)...not sure what these (maybe they are the current buses Disney runs)...or whether they will also stop at the I-Drive/Conv. Ctr. station
I meant express and local as in "express" making the identified HSR stops and local serving additional stops along the corridor (ex. Brandon, Plant City, US 27 & I-4, Celebration, etc.). Such a service would provide greater access to the system for the entire region.
The version I'm describing may be more commuter rail than HSR. The closest thing I can relate it to is California's Caltrain and its baby bullet service.
(http://www.mtc.ca.gov/images/ta1004/babybullet.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Caltrain_map.svg/608px-Caltrain_map.svg.png)
QuoteOctober 2004
Grand Award:
Caltrain Baby Bullet
Weighing in at more than 400 tons, standing nearly 16 feet tall and immediately capable of racing between the Bay Area’s two largest cities in just 57 minutes, the infant delivered by 141-year-old Caltrain in June 2004 is no ordinary baby. It’s the Baby Bullet, recipient of this year’s Grand Award and the high-speed herald of a new era for weekday commuters from South of Market to the Silicon Valley.
With the new addition to the Caltrain family, passengers now can choose from 86 weekday trains â€" including 10 Baby Bullet trains which match their siblings’ top speed of 79 miles per hour but slash commute times by making only four stops between San Francisco and San Jose: at the Millbrae, Hillsdale, Palo Alto and Mountain View stations (with two morning and two evening runs also stopping at the 22nd Street station in San Francisco).
“The Baby Bullet is a cost-effective way to meet the needs of 21st century commuters by adding value to 19th and 20th century infrastructure,†observed former Caltrain executive Howard Goode, who is preparing to retire later this year as deputy executive director of the San Mateo County Transportation Authority. Conceived on a San Carlos tabletop in January 2000 by Goode, state Senator Jackie Speier (winner of this year’s MTC Legislative Award â€" see story), and senatorial aide Brian Perkins, the Baby Bullet’s gestation was made possible by $127 million secured by Speier through the state Traffic Congestion Relief Program.
The lion’s share of the money was used to help pay for a two-year construction project which included laying bypass tracks in Brisbane and Sunnyvale that allow Baby Bullets to overtake local trains; installing a centralized switching and signaling system; and making extensive station and track upgrades throughout the corridor. The remaining funding was used to purchase six spanking new gray-and-red locomotives and 17 double-deck passenger coaches. “It’s the most expensive baby I ever delivered,†joked Speier at the Baby Bullet inauguration gala held on June 7 in San Francisco.
To make the birth of the Baby Bullet as painless as possible, Caltrain opted to work weekends, suspending Saturday and Sunday service from July 2002 to June 2004 to take care of the necessary rail, switching and station work. The result is a Caltrain that’s safer, quieter and more reliable than ever. During the 23-month construction period, special bus service was established to transport weekend riders along the Caltrain corridor.
The Baby Bullet immediately endeared itself to commuters along the Peninsula corridor. Average weekday Caltrain ridership topped 30,000 in August 2004, a 12 percent increase over the August 2003 figure. The upward trend is helping to lift the system out of its post-9/11 ridership doldrums. Weekend trains returned better than ever after the delivery of the Baby Bullet as well, with new hourly service on both Saturdays and Sundays. Trains previously ran only every two hours on Sundays. To celebrate the return of weekend trains, Caltrain waived fares the first two Saturdays and Sundays in June. Each weekend, more than 20,000 riders took advantage of the free travel opportunity.
In a railroad version of a well-baby checkup, Caltrain in late 2004 will evaluate the new service levels to determine whether the current mix of Baby Bullet, limited-stop and local trains is meeting passengers’ expectations. Caltrain aims to add more Baby Bullet service as demand increases and both capital and operating funds become available. The new low-floor Baby Bullet cars carry 130 to 142 passengers, and each Baby Bullet train can accommodate up to 16 bicycles.
http://www.mtc.ca.gov/news/transactions/ta10-04/grand.htm
I understood Lake...I was just somewhat surprised to see that the HSR plan included some "express" and "local" trains too.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 05, 2009, 01:15:32 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 05, 2009, 10:41:13 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 05, 2009, 08:57:47 AM
Light rail is not meant to go 73 miles!
tufsu1, REALLY? Have you ridden some of the LRT systems? Dallas regular operations are very near 70 mph. Under the hood, light rail cars are the same basic animal as the HSR electric trains. Even back in the day...There is no reason not to hit 70 - 80 or 90 mph, on private right of way.
Ock...I never said 70mph...I said not meant for 70+ miles....LRT is meant for distances inside urban areas.
The Baltimore line is 27 miles long and iit takes over 1 hour to travel from one end to the other (because of downtown traffic and all the stops).
My bad, my good friend, I am half blind you know, a condition which clears up only under certain influences! So I'll repost:
Light rail is not meant to go 73 miles!
PACIFIC ELECTRIC RY 1,200 Miles - San Bernandino/LA Mainline 58 miles.
ILLNOIS TERMINAL (electric) INTERURBAN 400 Miles
SACRAMENTO NORTHERN RY 275 Miles
Ohio and Indiana were blanketed by a web of "light rail" and at one time, using connections, and spending nights in hotels, one could travel from Utica, NY to Indianapolis, IN. in 13 days! So much for 70 mile LRT. OCKLAWAHA
wow...NY to IN in 13 days....that would definitely compete with air travel and highways :-)
Quote from: stephendare on October 05, 2009, 08:27:34 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 05, 2009, 08:24:47 PM
wow...NY to IN in 13 days....that would definitely compete with air travel and highways :-)
are you just trying to be an ass? ::)
It probably wouldnt compete with a space rocket or a concorde either.
Its commuter rail.
We might as well abandon bike lanes while were at it. Theyll never compete with old trolleys.
Problem is people don"t use a space rocket, and the concorde was a massive failure. People do use airplanes and highways. As far as bike lanes, ever saw the usage here in town?