Metro Jacksonville

Everyone who thinks that the JTA employees should be forced to give up their personal transportation for a full year (or until the gatdamn system starts working, which would undoubtedly happen first)  Signify by Posting Aye!

Cut and paste the following:

Aye!  I think that All JTA employees should be required to use only public transportation (except in cases of provable emergency) for the period of one year or until the system become useful to the majority of people residing in Duval County.  I do not want to see a single JTA employee driving themselves anywhere until at least August of 2010

Signed,
Stephen Dare

I don't know about all employees, but those who can shape policy/direction should certainly have to.  If I ran JTA I would make this a policy for all upper level folks.  One week per month you must use only JTA to get to work, and keep a log of your experiences.
 

Oh yeah..


Aye!  I think that All JTA employees should be required to use only public transportation (except in cases of provable emergency) for the period of one year or until the system become useful to the majority of people residing in Duval County.  I do not want to see a single JTA employee driving themselves anywhere until at least August of 2010.

CT1 from downtown to Springfield averages 2.1 mph. Yeah, they should definitely try that out.

After just one week of poor service, slow trains and totally crappy customer service from JTA I am off the Skyway. Our office just moved downtown and I live in Riverside. So I thought I would park at the Convention Center and ride the Skyway to Hemming. Nice short little trip. Except last Friday we all stood waiting at Central Station for 45 minutes with no announcements as to what was happening. Forget pressing the intercom button. No one answers. Today I was 20 minutes late for work because I waited 25 minutes again at Central station to go 4 lousy blocks to Hemming. When you call JTA you get some totally non emotional person who sounds like she wishes she were anyplace else but there. So JTA you got my money for 2 weeks. I'l pay an extra 5 bucks a month and park at a garage 3 blocks from the ofice and walk. And they wonder why ridership has dropped off. Look at the parking lots near the Convention Center station. Almost totally empty.

what about the JTA folks who are responsible for roads....can they still drive cars?

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 23, 2009, 02:31:49 PM
what about the JTA folks who are responsible for roads....can they still drive cars?

Only if they are required to drive over every improperly constructed manhole on their route twice.  Only Jacksonville can make its own potholes.

But JTA isn't a public transit agency. JTA is a highway building agency that also happens to manage a bus system and monorail in their spare time.

Therein lies the real issue.

It's my understanding that all JTA employees have to ride the system several times a year and report on it. Also, I know of many people who work there that do ride the bus, the trolley's and the Skyway on a daily basis.

AYE!

A few times a year clearly isn't even close to enough for these fools. I'm also pretty sure we could use the gas/insurance money for something a bit more productive for the city.

bottom line folks...ths is happening all over the country....almost every transit agency had to cut back last year with rising gas prices...just when people wanted to take public transit the mosty.

JTA needs more money....as I've said before, $1 per trip is way too cheap....but the catch-22 is that most of their customers are transit-dependent and on limited incomes.

A few times a year doesn't cut it.  I would say anyone with direct transit involvement (I would exempt the secretarys and such, who have no real power to make changes).  However, I would require anyone who actually has say over the direction of the transit system (existing service or planning) to actually use it for commuting.

Quote from: tufsu1 on July 23, 2009, 05:41:02 PM
bottom line folks...ths is happening all over the country....almost every transit agency had to cut back last year with rising gas prices...just when people wanted to take public transit the mosty.

This really isn't about cut backs though. The bus routes are ridiculous. A simple 1.5 mile ride from downtown to Springfield takes 40 minutes.

I agree that JTA should go through a complete system re-design of their local bus routes.

yeah. redesign the system. Build streetcars and a regional rail system. Let's stop being so dependent on the bus.

JTA doesn't care about mass transit, streetcars, buses or skyways.  They ARE a road agency.

"We will provide minimal services for the poor folk because nobody else really cares and they don't have much power." is their underlying mantra.  "People only care about sitting in their cars at overcrowded intersections so that is where we will spend our money."

Well, JEA, there are some of us who have seen effective, convenient mass transit systems in other cities and other countries and HATE having to take our cars everywhere and find a place to park them.  There are more of us everyday and we are getting tired of your once-an-hour, slow service.

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 24, 2009, 04:23:56 PM
JTA doesn't care about mass transit, streetcars, buses or skyways.  They ARE a road agency.

That may have been true at one time (although I doubt it), but its definitely not anymore...JTA is a full-service transportation agency now and has actively been studying many different transit modes.

capital outlay may not be a fair comparison...as has been pointed out on this site many times, transit projects often cost far less that road projects.

And major transit projects were never identified in this community before the last decade (when BRT was first studied)....most of the road projects JTA has worked on recently were first contemplated 15 years ago or more.

ROAR!

There was a conversation, in the shadow of a bank building, among many employed individuals who ALL enthusiastically concurred with my opinion that all city workers should have all family vehicles confiscated for at least six months as a condition of employment, including the mayor.

Let's see what happens to mass transit when city bigwigs have no choice but to take buses or taxis to get somewhere they can't walk to in less than ten minutes.

One lone dumbass whined, "But what about their children?" Uh, yeah. What ABOUT

..the children? Who cares about rich kids getting curb service? Not I. I don't care about anybody being hindered in their attempts to get where they want to go in a timely manner, when I have to leave my house at least an hour before my actual time of arrival, when I'm only taking ONE bus.

I think all city employees should be forced to got through the boredom, misery, and time-wasting that I have to deal with, just to give them some perspective. Example:

I live in Arlington. I had a job in Springfield. That's a 20-minute drive at most, even in heavy traffic. However, riding the bus, this 12.5 mile drive takes TWO AND A HALF HOURS.

I think all city employees and their immediate family should not be allowed to operate a vehicle. And no taxis, either. Walk and/or ride the bus, like poor folks.

What the city and JEA should have done years ago is offered incentives for employees to live downtown or nearby in Springfield or Riverside or something. They still have an opportunity to do this when they don't have economy-compounded budget woes. In the JEA tower downtown there are only 2 people who live in Springfield. That's sad. Imagine the improved state of the historic district if a couple dozen lived in Springfield. That's not a lot but that would make a big impact.

I like the idea of incentivizing people to live downtown....but how should the City/JEA pay for that when everyone screams about higher taxes and fees?

Maybe one could argue that the overall costs borne to the City/JEA would be less for people living downtown vs. the suburban areas of Duval....but those are long-term savings...something citizens don't seem interested in hearing about these days. 

Now, they can't pay. When times were good a few years back and when better times return (as I believe they will), this is more viable. The cost to provide services to someone in the urban core is typically less than someone who lives in the suburbs. Also, at least for a neighborhood like Springfield, this could increase property values and increase tax revenue. From a long term perspective, it might be more cost effective. But for me the city should do it to improve downtown and pull development away from the suburbs. It is the right thing to do environmentally.

When the JSO restricts officers from taking home cars, I'll lobby the same for the JTA. Come to think of it all JEA, JAA, JPA, JSO, COJ officials should leave city/state cars at the business and use their own cars/vehicles and/or public transportation for commuting back and forth to home and work.

If they live outside of Duval County, they should think about their jobs.

Not exactly apples-to-apples comparison.

JSO allows ooficers to take cars home if they are parked outside (visible on the street)....it acts as a crime deterrent.

And JSO are on duty even when they are off duty. If they are driving their police car during off hours, they can and will stop if they observe something unlawful. And they can also call for backup from a uniformed officer that way as well. Plus in an emergency they can be dispatched right from their homes. I have absolutely no problem with JSO having take home cars. Now as for other city agencies, especially those in non public safety areas, then I do have a problem with take home cars.
Just my two cents..

Quote from: DeadGirlsDontDance on July 30, 2009, 10:48:21 PM
I think all city employees and their immediate family should not be allowed to operate a vehicle. And no taxis, either. Walk and/or ride the bus, like poor folks.

Really?  ALL city employees?  Hmm... last I checked, quite a few of them don't make over $28,000 a year, but of course those employees don't make the news. Nor do they have anything to do with JTA or roadway design.

Quote from: stephendare on August 03, 2009, 10:58:21 AM
However, Im with deadgirlsdontdance.  Everyone involved with planning routes at JTA should be forced to ride.

Now that I can agree with.

Quote from: fsujax on July 24, 2009, 03:48:41 PM
yeah. redesign the system. Build streetcars and a regional rail system. Let's stop being so dependent on the bus.

Don't sweat the small stuff FSUJAX, some of us have heard rumors that JTA is not only serious but is indeed looking to expand our Public Transit options. If this were not serious why is Clay County buying up land all along the CSX and openly calling it Park and Ride Lots?

If we were not serious about transit options very serious plans and studies are being done to extend our Skyway to Brooklyn and South to Atlantic at the FEC RY, with some pretty heavy talk about the Riverside line as far as Forrest.

If we were not serious about transit options, Sun Bus from St. Johns County wouldn't be interline connecting with JTA at both the Avenues and Ponte Vedra. This is something we couldn't even imagine back in 1980.

If we were not serious about transit options I-795 and "The Florida Georgia Parkway," perhaps the future I-22 wouldn't be on the radar, neither would an outer beltway. Love it or hate it, the I-795 and outer beltway will provide the truck bypasses to get the big rigs off our I-95, I-10, I-295. You remember I-295 don't you? It was a bypass for the city which has got some of the worst congestion in the US Interstate system.

If we were not serious about transit options streetcars would not be a part of our future plans, but the first study is already in the box, laying track towards the next study phases.

If we were not serious about transit options, the CSX B&B crews working on the Trout River Bridge would have never dared to say the "Commuter Rail" words, somebody has be clued in.

If we were not serious about transit options that huge parking lot that goes behind and North of the new stores at Avenue Walks wouldn't be there. But keep in mind that "there" is right next to the FEC RY mainline which blows between the Avenues and the Walks. They didn't build that lot as a train watching platform.

If we were not serious about transit options, JIA would still have 8,000 foot runways, and the old metal concourses, and nobody would be studying the "airport shuttle" route from JIA to the CSX at Main Street.

If we were not serious about transit options, the Lem Turner/Boulevard busway would be stillborn.

If we were not serious about transit options, Amtrak and FEC RY officials wouldn't be making frequent visits to our JTA and TPO, but guess what? THEY ARE!

Being the "Ancient One" on this site I was in Dallas when the "Cowboys" came to town. Prairie grass and 800,000 people in their metro, but we are fast approaching a time when Jacksonville will be twice that big.

Something big is about to happen here, a City that trashed it's streetcars and interurban routes and built 1/2 of a Skyway is starting to stir. That great orange colored beast of a City is waking up from a 70 year nap. Mike Blaylock, Scott Clem, and James Boyle, wouldn't be at the telegraph office tapping out the words TORA TORA TORA! (Tiger, Tiger, Tiger)

Nobody should ever be "forced" to ride any given mode of transportation, that idea reeks of National Socialism. However EVERY City Planner or JTA officer and staff member should have a log book, and every month it should be filled with notes on at least 2 transit experiences. The reason? Commuter Rail, or Commuter Bus, is a very shortsighted name. Transportation for lunch, the beaches, tourism or just for the fun of it should be factored into every breath. Transit just for fun? Non believers should make a pilgrimage to New Orleans or Tampa's streetcars. We ARE in the cross hairs of of four massive federal rail transportation projects. A new map lays out Higher Speed Rail from Jax to Orlando, New Orleans, Atlanta and New York.

TORA! TORA! TORA! neighbors.  

OCKLAWAHA

Hey Ocklawaha, regarding the crews on the Trout River bridge saying commuter rail..I'm not sure where that came from. The folks that I talked to, including the man who oversaw this project, made no mention whatsoever about commuter rail. The bridge needed upgrades, number one, because it was old and number two, upgrading the signalization and controls of the bridge so it could be moved from the dispatch center is another way for CSX to cut an employee, the bridge tender. Now maybe you heard it from somewhere else, I don't know. And it may be true. But I never heard that mentioned.
jb

Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on August 03, 2009, 11:12:40 AM

Quote from: DeadGirlsDontDance on July 30, 2009, 10:48:21 PM
I think all city employees and their immediate family should not be allowed to operate a vehicle. And no taxis, either. Walk and/or ride the bus, like poor folks.

Really?  ALL city employees?  Hmm... last I checked, quite a few of them don't make over $28,000 a year, but of course those employees don't make the news. Nor do they have anything to do with JTA or roadway design.

Yes. ALL city employees. When every single person who works for the city starts showing up an hour late on a regular basis, because the bus service sucks, maybe the city will improve the damn bus service.

Cost aside, it would be nice if they could see where their buses, skyway, etc were (gps). This would let them know that no bus has visited stop X in 55 minutes and it's a 30 minute route.
Or, do they already have that and not care? I'm sure they must with the skyway.

Quote from: Dog Walker on July 24, 2009, 04:23:56 PM
Well, JEA, there are some of us who have seen effective, convenient mass transit systems in other cities and other countries and HATE having to take our cars everywhere and find a place to park them.  There are more of us everyday and we are getting tired of your once-an-hour, slow service.

Thank you, Dog Walker. I spent a few days in San Diego, with no car, and I could get anywhere I wanted to go, and never waited more than 15 minutes for a bus.

Oh, and the buses were packed, and not just with poor people who couldn't afford a car, or old people who lost their driver's license for crappy eyesight and reflexes, they were full of regular people taking the bus because it was cheap and convenient.

Solution is simple.....allow no cars at all downtown. Outlying parking area's but no auto's allowed in the inner core. That may play hell with the parking violations but would clear up downtown real quick! Just legislate 4 or 6 square blocks no auto's allowed!

There are a number of cities that have created "no autos" zones and streets in their downtowns.  I know of Tampa and Denver in this country.  Does anyone have any information about how successful these closed streets have been?  I think that they are usually entertainment districts.

Pedestrian Malls are usually not successful, especially in small or medium size cities.

Here is a story about Raleigh's removal of their pedestrian mall.
Learning from Raleigh, NC: Fayetteville Street Renaissance (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-may-learning-from-raleigh-nc-fayetteville-street-renaissance)

Well I know that Tampa's is an entertainment district but would have to ask......why must it be an entertainment district? It would seem to me that a business or government district should about the same. Point is......no vehicles! People could move on the streets without getting run over and would do wonders for downtown congestion!

This seems like a great idea on the surface, however as Lunican has pointed out, it has failed over and over again. It must go deep into the psychology of Americans, as the "land of the free," we all have a bit of that rebel spirit in us. You can ask an American, to save or feed your whole damn nation, but don't you DARE tell us to do it. Then again, if it is market driven, (St. George Street, St. Augustine) we're all over it and clawing at eachother to get there first.

The best medium for accomplishing a much more walkable downtown without driving out old or potential new heavy weight company's would be careful restructuring. Surrender lanes to buses and streetcars, expand the Skyway and connect it to adjacent buildings. Send new Skyway lines THROUGH future office and residential towers, Al La Disney Monorail. Narrow streets and expand pedestrian spaces. Wipe out parking meters and attach those fees to all of the downtown parking lots and garages. Don't require new office towers to build 600 car garages. Use street furniture, shrubs, trees, benches, fountains etc. to remove pedestrians from auto and bus traffic. Go to electric buses downtown, either hybrid (which cost a fortune) or spend a dime on overhead and purchase trolley bus components. Use a carrot and stick method for the homeless, a smelly woman asleep in the library restroom gets her butt hauled out, a smelly woman reading keyboarding 101 gets a break. Have a place for them to go that is more then a warehouse for night crawlers, and doesn't empty it's contents on the street at 5 am. Streetcars in broad 20' - 25' Parkways, where the track is in a median and grass, flowers and shrubs are planted in and alongside the tracks. We could even have some wildflower, butterfly blocks in the middle of the streetcar tracks...and we DON'T have to mow them.

Just tossing out a few, TheLakelander? Lunican? Stephendare? Steve? Anyone care to pile on? Nothing will draw the American, the tourist, and the industrialist, faster then a clean and amazingly attractive downtown, with decent transit options. There is certainly no need to punish JTA employees for bad transit on a 50 year starvation diet.

OCKLAWAHA

I just read the full thread, after voting no.

I don't share Ocks depth of knowledge but I can't see arbitrarily forcing city employees to be subjected to riding woefully inadequate bus lines in an automotive city.

I understand the enthusiasm for mass transit, and it is growing on me as I continue to read this forum.

Years ago I had to get from Oak and Margaret to Atlantic Blvd right at the merger of Arlington expswy. I took BH1 via skateboard from riverside. It took about 2 hours each way. By car, 15 or 20 minutes. Rainy days were tougher. Had to transfer:(.

Since I rarely use public transportation other than JIA, perhaps I don't get a vote. If it was useable, perhaps I would.

BTW, JIA (JAX) is prhaps my favorite airport in the country: New, clean, easy to use and it's like your own private airport compared to the majority of other airports.

I'd ride JTA busses rather than fly through Hartsfield.

Bucket head I agree having been on both! Somehow I don't see tearing up downtown for a trolley system but maybe a hybrid bus might be the answer for downtown usage. Not sure and need to see just what the proposals are regarding the entire mass transit concept. I am sure there has to be some answer that would carry over into the next decade that would encourage usage......know for sure we need to get ready and soon!

Downtown Toronto, Canada has a network of underground passageways connecting most of the buildings.  Small shops and cafes have grown up at the intersections and it is always full of people moving around.  Minneapolis, Minnesota has a network of second floor covered walkways connecting many of the major buildings in its downtown.  The second floors of the building have become food courts and shopping areas.  You do not want to go outside in Minneapolis in February so there is this whole alternative way for pedestrians to get around.

Perhaps a series of covered, elevated walkways around Hemming Plaza connecting all of the government buildings and out to the Federal and Country Courthouses would start a trend and then private building owners would want their building connected to the network as well.  August in Jacksonville is just as unfriendly to pedestrians as Minneapolis in February.

Quote from: buckethead on August 26, 2009, 10:06:00 PM

I don't share Ocks depth of knowledge but I can't see arbitrarily forcing city employees to be subjected to riding woefully inadequate bus lines in an automotive city.

Just to clarify... JTA has no city employees. They are an independant state agency and not a division of COJ.

Quote from: CS Foltz on August 27, 2009, 06:47:52 AM
Bucket head I agree having been on both! Somehow I don't see tearing up downtown for a trolley system but maybe a hybrid bus might be the answer for downtown usage. Not sure and need to see just what the proposals are regarding the entire mass transit concept. I am sure there has to be some answer that would carry over into the next decade that would encourage usage......know for sure we need to get ready and soon!

It can be a chicken or egg proposition, but one in which both need to arrive at the same time. Tearing up downtown would NOT occur to convert the current asinine, amusement park, PCT TROLLEYS, into REAL trolley buses. Trolley buses attract a larger ridership base for perhaps the same reason that streetcars attract an even larger ridership. Bottom line, there is security in KNOWING where the bus or streetcar is going and following overhead wires and/or in ground rails is a fantastic way to achieve these goals. Houston has even gone to the extra step of placing the little square reflector markers (just like the ones on the center lines of OUR roadways, only with LED lighting in them. The lights create a trail at night making both bus and rail easy to follow.

If we rely solely on buses, and BRT buses, we shoot ourselves in the foot, never gaining true rapid transit, in spite of the hype. An example can be found in the Federal Transportation Administration facts, buses running on exclusive BRT busways account for only 7% of all TOD or TAD (Transit oriented or adjacent development). Even Clevelands highly touted Euclid BRT corridor, which claims to have broken development records is not seeing private development. Their "record breaking" TOD'S are all social and public administration buildings, except for ONE MC Donald's restaurant. Based on that concept pogo sticks could be considered as attracting TOD'S as long of the City or State built a building on the pogo stick sidewalk.

We need REAL development downtown, development with a vision for mass transit. As a city we should be chasing the 93% of TOD'S generated by various modes of rail, as well as the 7% BRT. Streetcars are well proved development machines, with almost every system built, modern or heritage, accounting for at least a BILLION dollars in new office and residential.

How would true mass transit be built? Overhead for trolley buses could be installed by closing a couple of blocks of curbside lanes, while poles and line crews string the wire. Streetcar electric would follow the same pattern. Most Streetcar systems built today use a 60 day/six blocks schedule for street closures. The two south extensions of the Skyway could be done today without disturbing much of anything, since both proposed routes (Brooklyn and San Marco) are off-road.

BRT on HOV lanes with deluxe stops would be cheaper to build, but the Operations and Maintenance on BRT buses, much less the nearly Million dollar a copy hybrids, are much higher then and form of Light Rail.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock,  Have there been good studies done about how frequent transit needs to be for it to be attractive and convenient.  I know that the ten minute interval for the Riverside trolley works for me and the one hour interval for the regular buses does not.

I think the interval on most subway systems is in the 5-15 minute range which seems to work.

What has been found to be ideal.  I think that this is an important factor in getting mass transit to work.

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 27, 2009, 04:39:21 PM
Ock,  Have there been good studies done about how frequent transit needs to be for it to be attractive and convenient.  I know that the ten minute interval for the Riverside trolley works for me and the one hour interval for the regular buses does not.

I think the interval on most subway systems is in the 5-15 minute range which seems to work.

What has been found to be ideal.  I think that this is an important factor in getting mass transit to work.

I think that naturally, shorter headways are better. But what is acceptable depends on what mode of transit you're talking about. If it's long distance commuter rail, the intervals can be longer and still effective (perhaps with shorter headways during rush hours) but for a streetcar to pick me up and drop me off 8 blocks away it's gonna need to come rather frequently for me to use it.

By the way, Ock, I didnt know you were a consultant for the...airlines!! *gasp*

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-08-26-surviving-tarmac-delays_N.htm?csp=34

Quote
"It's not a democracy," says Robert Mann, an airline industry consultant in Port Washington, N.Y.

your evil twin?  ;D

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 27, 2009, 04:49:00 PM

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 27, 2009, 04:39:21 PM
Ock,  Have there been good studies done about how frequent transit needs to be for it to be attractive and convenient.  I know that the ten minute interval for the Riverside trolley works for me and the one hour interval for the regular buses does not.

I think the interval on most subway systems is in the 5-15 minute range which seems to work.

What has been found to be ideal.  I think that this is an important factor in getting mass transit to work.

I think that naturally, shorter headways are better. But what is acceptable depends on what mode of transit you're talking about. If it's long distance commuter rail, the intervals can be longer and still effective (perhaps with shorter headways during rush hours) but for a streetcar to pick me up and drop me off 8 blocks away it's gonna need to come rather frequently for me to use it.

By the way, Ock, I didn't know you were a consultant for the...airlines!! *gasp*

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-08-26-surviving-tarmac-delays_N.htm?csp=34

Quote
"It's not a democracy," says Robert Mann, an airline industry consultant in Port Washington, N.Y.

your evil twin?  ;D

Headways on Subways are often in the 5 - 10 minute range, closer during the rush hours. Jacksonville Streetcars operated on 8 minute headways historically. The City complained about the bad service and the Jacksonville Traction Company cut the headways to 5 minutes, but denied a one cent fare increase. Tampa also used the same headway system and the slogan was "ALWAYS A CAR IN SIGHT..."

Kind of makes one reflect doesn't it? Progress? Oh Lord what have we done!

Project Maximus, not to alarm you but my whole life in Transportation started at PIEDMONT AIRLINES at JIA, then farmed out to United, Continental, Dobbs House, and then to Tamiami Trailways in Supervision. TT was a great object lesson in saving a flag ship carrier from the scrap heap of history. In the end we failed to save the National Trailways Bus System, but we did save the franchise operations and interline them with Greyhound, Jefferson, Peter Pan, Carolina Tours, etc...  When I started in JAX which the bus operations called JCV (for some reason known only to God) we had 45 scheduled runs daily, many would have to double or triplehead. When I left "JCV" we were down to 14.

After writing a few books and 1000 articles, you never know where the name might pop up, (but it won't be New York, for this Southron!)

OCKLAWAHA

8 minutes = "bad" service????   Makes one weep!

My last day to ride the Skyway is today. Its too darn unreliable. One day the wait is 4 minutes. The next day 5. The next day 8. Wednesday it took me almost 22 minutes to ride from Hemming Plaza to Convention Center Station. And that was from the time I actually boarded the train at Hemming until I stepped onto the platform at Convention Center. I could have walked it almost as quickly. So its back to the Baptist garage and 41 bucks a month. But at least I know my car will be there when I walk into the garage and I won't have to wait for it.  Have any of you looked at the parking lots across the street from the Convention center station recently. 5 years ago I rode the Skyway and those lots were almost full. Now you could play a baseball game in them and a long fly ball wouldn't come near a car windshield.

(http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/images/Jacksonville/Junction1.jpg)
The Delay causing track error...As this train heads to San Marco or the car barn, it is blocking all 6 tracks, not an acceptable solution in my book.

Quote from: jbroadglide on August 28, 2009, 02:15:48 PM
My last day to ride the Skyway is today. Its too darn unreliable. One day the wait is 4 minutes. The next day 5. The next day 8. Wednesday it took me almost 22 minutes to ride from Hemming Plaza to Convention Center Station. And that was from the time I actually boarded the train at Hemming until I stepped onto the platform at Convention Center. I could have walked it almost as quickly. So its back to the Baptist garage and 41 bucks a month. But at least I know my car will be there when I walk into the garage and I won't have to wait for it.  Have any of you looked at the parking lots across the street from the Convention center station recently. 5 years ago I rode the Skyway and those lots were almost full. Now you could play a baseball game in them and a long fly ball wouldn't come near a car windshield.

This is a great post. It brings up the subject of track layout to the old railroad guy. The two switches where the lines part for the Southbank are WRONG. We could operate (even with expansion) back and forth shuttles a South line:
Atlantic-Hilton-Kings Av-Riverplace-San Marco-Central-BOA-Hyatt-Randolph-Stadium
and a North line:
Jax Terminal-Jefferson-Central-Hemming-Rosa Parks-FCJ-Broad St-Shands-S Line Terminal

The entire system would be shaped roughly like this )( so the trains would NEVER got onto the others route which causes those hold-out delays. Railroadese for having to HOLD OUT (of a station) one train, while another loads or unloads, causing undue delays. For example, add 2 or 3 more trains to Amtrak Jacksonville and the whole AMSHACK will MELT DOWN. Just not designed for that. But the Skyway is, except for that stupid junction.  

(http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/images/Jacksonville/Junction2.jpg)
In my concept, this train inbound from Jacksonville Terminal, would NEVER enter the track in the foreground as you see in this photo, rather prior to the junction, it would shift to the northern most track, to the Skyways Left, to the viewers far right. Trains to and from (stadium)-Central-San Marco etc... would use the track in the foreground ONLY as they passed this point.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock.....are you sure the City did not have a finger in this design? As stupid an error this is makes me wonder just what bovine had their ignorant fingers in the design! I mean this is beyond stupid and no engineer caught it! Oh wait I know.....FDOT was lead on this right?

Yes, FDOT, but since UMTA (the FTA of today) came up with the whole scheme and then the FTA told CBS and ABC "We never had anything to do with Jacksonville..." I think we should blame Washington D.C..

Steve Arrington, of JTA chief engineering, who once tilted windmills with me is too nice a guy to lay this on. Psst. He's sharp too!

In honesty consider that the system they were planning was NEVER built and what we have are just the bones of what was susposed to be a much farther reaching railroad. This will make an interesting subject for another JTA-MJ meeting.

OCKLAWAHA

JTA budget approved.  However, there were Stjr-style questions asked by Richard Clark.

QuoteBlaylock was also grilled on the Skyway, which costs JTA over $7 million annually to operate. Council President Richard Clark said his office faces the Hemming Plaza Skyway station and he maintains ridership is low.

“I am trying to figure out the end game with the Skyway,” said Clark. “Why do we continue to operate this?”

Blaylock defended the system by saying it, as well as the Kings Avenue parking garage, were built ahead of their time.

“There were projections of 200,000 workers Downtown that never occurred,” said Blaylock, adding the idea now is to integrate the Skyway into a transportation system that sees bus routes into Downtown terminate at Skyway stations. He also thinks one day the Skyway will be beneficial. “I am crazy enough to believe Downtown will come back strong.”

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=528901

Quote from: jbroadglide on August 28, 2009, 02:15:48 PM
My last day to ride the Skyway is today. Its too darn unreliable. One day the wait is 4 minutes. The next day 5. The next day 8. Wednesday it took me almost 22 minutes to ride from Hemming Plaza to Convention Center Station. And that was from the time I actually boarded the train at Hemming until I stepped onto the platform at Convention Center. I could have walked it almost as quickly. So its back to the Baptist garage and 41 bucks a month. But at least I know my car will be there when I walk into the garage and I won't have to wait for it.  Have any of you looked at the parking lots across the street from the Convention center station recently. 5 years ago I rode the Skyway and those lots were almost full. Now you could play a baseball game in them and a long fly ball wouldn't come near a car windshield.

I have been having the same experience with regards to the Skyway. It seems that each week it becomes less and less reliable. I wonder what percentage of ridership they are losing due to the problems and its current condition?

One cannot win when it comes to transportation or commute in this city. The Skyway sucks. The bus system needs a major overhaul, and the traffic everywhere else, commute or not, is diabolical...

Ock:

QuoteThis is a great post. It brings up the subject of track layout to the old railroad guy. The two switches where the lines part for the Southbank are WRONG.

Ock, I love your sincerity but even you regularly admit an ever increasing list of issues with the $ky-high-way as our discussion continues.  How much to rip up these switches and rebuild them to your design?  The fact is the more we learn about the $ky-high-way, the more flaws we find in it.  Just more reasons to question anyone's defense of it or advocacy to expand it.

I also raised the issue about service frequency on the $ky-high-way and how it compares to street cars.  If street cars can run every 5 minutes, what's the best one could hope for the $ky-high-way?  Don't forget the limits caused by issues such as the switches as presently configured.

Riders are giving up on the $ky-high-way because it can't be reliably operated, even as it exists.  Imagine the added chaos of running a larger, expanded system.

You know, there is something noble about recycling useless concrete! 8)

Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2009, 08:31:54 PM
JTA budget approved.  However, there were Stjr-style questions asked by Richard Clark.

QuoteBlaylock was also grilled on the Skyway, which costs JTA over $7 million annually to operate. Council President Richard Clark said his office faces the Hemming Plaza Skyway station and he maintains ridership is low.

“I am trying to figure out the end game with the Skyway,” said Clark. “Why do we continue to operate this?”

Well, if this is correct, I will have to finally give Clark his due on something budget related.  Now, will he act on it.  Imagine what  $7 million  would mean to the City budget right now if JTA closed the $ky-high-way and forwarded this money to the COJ.  A lot more than a 1,000 people (500 if they are round trippers) could be served and the community would be a lot better off.  I hope the City Council is paying attention here.

QuoteBlaylock defended the system by saying it, as well as the Kings Avenue parking garage, were built ahead of their time.

“There were projections of 200,000 workers Downtown that never occurred,” said Blaylock, adding the idea now is to integrate the Skyway into a transportation system that sees bus routes into Downtown terminate at Skyway stations. He also thinks one day the Skyway will be beneficial. “I am crazy enough to believe Downtown will come back strong.”
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=528901

[/quote]


Blaylock is grabbing at straws with a nebulous argument often made over the last 25 to 30 years to get the $ky-high-way built and expanded.  200,000 workers downtown?  That's ridiculous.  I would guess that's some 5 to 10 times current levels depending on how you measure.  Regardless, it is way beyond reasonable to expect this to become reality before the $ky-high-way is a mere relic.  Come on, how stupid are we?

If it was built "ahead of its time" then it's like 100 years ahead if there is even an "ahead" in the future.  The time is now and the foreseeable future and there is no purpose, use, or justification for keeping the $ky-high-way, especially at $7 million a year that could go to far superior mass transit alternatives and/or greater City needs.

Tying the $ky-high-way to the ends of bus routes?  Where is the common sense?  Does anyone think the $ky-high-way could keep up with dozens or more bus routes feeding it so people can travel a few extra blocks?  The inability to do this is so conspicuous that I am astounded that I have to even point it out.

Quote from: stephendare on August 29, 2009, 12:52:37 AM
Its not that it cant be reliably operated, its that it isnt being reliably operated.

Plus the bridge.

Stephen, if JTA and their crew are our supposed "experts", then I have to assume IT IS being operated as reliably as humanly possible.   If JTA, our "experts", can't run it, then why should anyone trust JTA to "expertly" evaluate it in any other forum?  Who are the "experts"? ... Who can we trust and rely on?  I don't see anyone on the horizon.  Another point for dumping it.

The bridge?  We aleady have agreement that if it was desired, street cars could cross the river on an existing bridge.  Certainly not a reason to for keeping the $ky-high-way in business.

Quote from: stephendare on August 29, 2009, 01:22:58 AM
Im not going to argue with you on this one, STJR.  You have your opinion, and you are entitled to it, and I respect and appreciate your point of view.

We obviously all agree that the Transit authority needs reform.

Thanks for your courtesies.  I feel I have to work extra hard to compensate for the JTA propaganda machine on this as I don't have their resources to compete otherwise.  All I have is a strong desire to see Jax make the right decisions for its future and the future of its citizens coupled with common sense, history, and the quality and validity of my points.
 
I hope you and others understand.

It is puzzling to me that it would cost 7 Million dollars to operate the $kyway. The design is flawed (switching) and the ridership is low due to scheduling issue's......save some money and shut it down! Finance committee dropped the ball on this one but maybe when the Budget goes before the Council ....it might get removed!

(http://web.presby.edu/~jtbell/transit/images/Jacksonville/Central-platform.jpg)

The planners left off many of the Skyways potential benefits, which has left the little system strung up on the "Gallo's Pole".

IMAGE: This was a golden opportunity to showcase something in Jacksonville that is found in only 3 other major US cities... MONORAIL. Monorail to anyone NOT connected with the rail or transportation industry always seems to be the "Future of ground travel." Never mind that monorails are as old as railroads themselves (as we know them) and if they WERE the future, CSX, FEC and NS would be monorails from the 1800's forward. Never the less, "EVERYBODY," seems to know or dream the monorail dream, perhaps its still fueled by Disneyland? So here was a chance to send the Skyway over I-95 in the Southbank, and possible points over 95 to Durkeeville and/or Shand's. With millions of people moving up and down the east coast on that highway, every single one of them having seen the elephant, would come away from Jacksonville, thinking... TOMORROWLAND! I'm not sure $7 Million a year could buy that type of PR?

Another missed opportunity is the Stadium, Arena, Fairgrounds, Baseball grounds, Metropolitan Park, and a future A.P. Randolph entertainment district. This area tied to downtown via the Skyway could wipe away the miles long traffic lines to get into and out of the venues. So in true Jacksonville style, we didn't build it there!

Failure to connect with a mixed traffic base is another strike out. Just how UMTA, FDOT and JTA reached their numbers for ridership seems a wild mystery. How many people do you know each day that must travel from the Omni to City Hall? From Jacksonville Terminal to FCJ (Rosa Parks)? From Prudential to and empty field at Jefferson? There is NO LOGICAL reason the segments we have up and running will ever carry more then a handful of passengers.

(http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/jack3.jpg)

This leaves the little train that couldn't in a permanent lurch. If we take it down, by the rules of the FTA and USDOT we will have to repay every dime of the cost. By Union Contracts, we would have to "protect" some 20 m/l employees with relocation, severance benefits, retirement etc... NOT CHEAP. Last but not least, cities that cut and run from projects funded by Uncle Sam are severely treated when they come up for other transportation grants.

JTA and the COJ was sold a bill of goods based on the "facts" of the 1970's-early 80's era. Anyone old enough remembers that time like this, if you asked your High School counselors about a railroad/LRT/streetcar career they would tell you to, "Stop being STUPID! There won't be ANY railroads by 2000..." So shazam, who was the Stupid One? Like every other city of the time, we bought into the rubber tire people mover to go with our rubber tire buses, then converted it to a rubber tire monorail. We allowed Amtrak to escape to an Amshack in the far NW corner of the city, converted a natural transportation hub (for an entire state) into a seldom useful 1/2 of a convention center, and waited for passengers... We're still waiting...

(http://www.urbanrail.net/am/jack/KingsAve1.jpg)

There are two directions to go on this issue, the first is do a true multi-modal study in the urban core, and try and figure out what factors are missing (like people) and how to reach those markets with the Skyway, at a minimum of expense. There are several positives in this, we wouldn't have to build any more maintenance facilities, probably wouldn't have to add a single employee, and frankly could operate much of it on single track.
Generators such as Baptist Medical Center, a mere parking lot and a block out of reach in a tropical downpour. The Blue Cross Area is good, but we need to reach to the edge of residential for it to work, so lets assume that to be near 5-points. The same is true of Shand's, Stadium, and San Marco at Atlantic. At this point we would have a true network that blends the transportation requirements like any other logical world system. Attractors, Producers, residential, commercial, recreation, employment, all along a single string. No matter how good we could make it, it is not going to make money any more then Atlantic Blvd, or Roosevelt Blvd, do.

The other direction is what friend stjr is promoting, stop, close it down, tear down the entire project, and tell ABC and CBS that "We never had anything to do with the Jacksonville Skyway..." (the same lie being spun out of the FTA in Washington). The cost of removal would come close to the cost of the short expansions proposed above, but then we would still have an annual budget item to support; protected employees. Once it's gone, we have no chance to recover any benefit, real or imagined from this project. Also remember it could black-list us with the FTA for a long, long, time.

Consider the options and make a decision, the worst thing we can do is allow it to continue to stumble along, poorly maintained, with long or impossible headways. In short, DO SOMETHING!

Hey, and while we're at it, SOMEBODY get that damn convention center out of Jacksonville Terminal, and bring Amtrak home!

(http://www.freewebs.com/lightrailjacksonville/SKYWAY%20TRAIN%20LEAVING%20JTCO%20PrimeOsbourne.jpg)
No cross streets, no stop lights, no speed patrols, no problem... Our Skyway.

OCKLAWAHA  

Ock....I am just as frustrated as everyone else! Design flaw not withstanding......$kyway had potential and just as much being done at City Hall......WASTED! A monorail system properly designed would have been a boon to downtown if the silly thing went somewhere! It goes from nowhere to nowhere right now and I don't see much being done to expand it.....just talk about it.....so lets either do something about it or pull its plug! If the funding is pulled then that's 7 Million back in the kitty.....if it is expanded then Federal Funds need to be involved because the City is handcuffed financially.....the system was just put out there and that's all that was done! Once again I keep coming back to no vision.....no plan ....and no sense!

I wouldn't necessarily say "nowhere"...

The Federal Courthouse is right across the street from the Hemming Plaza Station, along with City Hall, the main Library, MOCA and a variety of local businesses and eateries that thrive in that entire 9 block area.

When the Riverplace station reopens, the Strand and Peninsula residents (along with the Crowne Plaza and Hampton Inn / Extended Stay hotels) will once again be able to access the Northbank of downtown via the Skyway without having to walk all the way to the Kings Avenue Station. The new Hilton hotel also happens to be right there at the Kings Avenue Station. It's also nice to be able to travel from the Northbank to the Southbank. There are good places to eat (Mortons, Charthouse, BB's) all within close walking distance from the stop, sightseeing at Friendship Fountain or MOSH, and ample businesses such as Baptist and the Wachovia tower.

While there are more than two stations, and the others seem to really have nowhere near as much use (yet), imagine if there were places to actually go to where the other stops/stations are. An extension to / from Riverside would be nice and is on my wishlist, right underneath changing and extending the hours of the Skyway to be more accomodating for recreation in the city and surrounding areas...

I agree with your thoughts.......but it still does not go anywhere other than a very select few places. Riverside is supposed to be upgraded at a cost of 450K and still does nothing about extending to reach places that could be reached. So I keep coming back to a cost of 7 Million a year to operate a system with declining ridership and not increasing! So either extend or pull the plug..........one or the other! As is not a viable system!

I share your thought process on the current state of the Skyway system. I take issue with the hours of operation, the lack of cleanliness and respect of the stations, and the fact that a lot of the stops really lead to nowhere. It has also become very unstable and unreliable.

I'd love a Riverside extension, and living downtown certainly want the Skyway to be a success. Where I live is somewhat "off the beaten path" downtown, so for me, the Skyway is a "connection" to the rest of the city.

You must be one of the lucky ones that actually live in an area that makes Skyway usefull! I do agree that it should be possible to extend system but have questions regarding cost of expanding system. It would not be either cheap nor something that could be done overnight! No system should have been set in stone from the beginning with no options to extend or enhance! Severe lack of vision and planning tied the system up pretty much as it is now!

CS....that's the Riverplace Station....being rebuilt because of a fire....and the $450,000 is insurance money.

So it has nothiung to do with expaniding/upgrading the system!

I did a short stint at The Strand. I found the skyway useful for going to the library, but if I wanted to take my girls to the Landing, it proved easier, and often quicker to walk.

In all, "going nowhere" really does serve as a valid description.

tufsu1 ....I concur....Fire, Insurance etc etc! Still does not include expanding system and I understand that! My point is system was not put inplace with expansion in mind or included for the future!  That is a severe lack of vision and planning and who should take the blame for that? City.....FDOT? It was a waste to start something of the type of masstransit without a plan for the future.

CS, one only has to look at the dead end extensions east of the Central Station on Bay Street, the right of way north beyond FCJ, or the dead end stub track at the car barn in Brooklyn, to see it was indeed planned as a much larger system. In all it was supposed to come in at about 8 miles, reaching 5-Points, Shand's, Stadium and into San Marco. We quit at 2.5 miles, as the federal money for these "prototype" systems went dry. The other two cities finished theirs and we didn't.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: braeburn on September 02, 2009, 06:08:33 AM
I'd love a Riverside extension, and living downtown certainly want the Skyway to be a success.

A "Riverside Extension" would be near Blue Cross/Fidelity, to the east of I-95.  So what trips will this generate?  Fidelity and Blue Cross employees going downtown to lunch and back?  That's hardly a justification for expansion.

And the prospects of future Brooklyn residents?  Just prospects like all that growth that JTA said was coming to Downtown when they built the existing system.  When it doesn't materialize or work out they will just parrot their current blame game excuses and say they expected more growth than whatever occurred, if there is any growth at all.

Connection to various bus routes?  Yea, I can see all the buses for half the city plowing through Riverside to connect to the $ky-high-way so, maybe every 20 or 30 minutes, riders can travel the last mile or so to Downtown.  Not likely or feasible.

It's all a pipe dream.

QuoteNot likely or feasible.

It's all a pipe dream.

Have you seen the drawings? Have you inspected the facilities? Have you talked with the vendors? Have contractors talked with you? Have you lived where intermodal transportation thrives? Have you followed the late Senator Robert Kennedy's advice for Americans?  

Quote"Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why'? I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not'?" Robert Kennedy.

Until you have, until ALL of us have, any concept of feasibility or pipe dreams, is pure speculation.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2009, 11:26:02 PM

QuoteNot likely or feasible.

It's all a pipe dream.

Have you seen the drawings? Have you inspected the facilities? Have you talked with the vendors? Have contractors talked with you? Have you lived where intermodal transportation thrives? Until you have, until ALL of us have, any concept of feasibility or pipe dreams, is pure speculation.

Ock, are these the same transportation "experts", operators, and contractors who delivered the existing fiasco with a 90%+ ERROR rate on the EXISTING COMPLETED system?  They have already delivered pipe dreams, it's not speculation.  I really don't wish for second helpings of this dish.

I don't need to look at drawings.  I can see what is THERE NOW and see that adding more of the same isn't going to bring or add success.  I also have considered all the posts on MJ and public pronouncements by JTA and politicos on the matter and have yet to hear one thing that makes me think the expansion of the system won't result in more of the same, ongoing, failures.  As to artist renderings and architectural drawings, I learned long ago they don't have much to do with how things will actually perform in the real world.

And, please don't portray my opposition to the $ky-high-way as opposition to mass transit or intermodal.  I have always supported both.  In fact, I believe in them so much, that I cry a bucket of tears over the diversion from, and impairment of, these concepts in Northeast Florida because of the giant black eye the $ky-high-way has given such concepts (well, maybe more over my taxpayer dollars being wasted on such an obviously useless concept).

I will say it again:  The $ky-high-way is just too expensive, complicated, and non-user friendly to transport people over short (less than 3 or 4 mile) distances and it doesn't hold a candle to alternative modes that do a much better job in every respect, regardless of the application.

Quote"Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why'? I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not'?" Robert Kennedy.

I DO dream of things that never were, such as the traffic that never was on the $ky-high-way, and I DO say "Why not?"!  Me and Robert K. would have hit it off real well.   8)

P.S.  I have both lived and traveled in numerous large American cities and willingly partook of their intermodal transit systems.  With the exception of an internal airport rail loop, no rail-type mode, excepting street cars, had the short runs (I am taking into account your expansion proposal) of the $ky-high-way.  Those rides always fell to a bus, taxi, street car or walking.

I believe you Ock.....but lack of vision not to mention dollars are just not getting it! The two and one half miles the Skyway runs is ludicrous. You have stops on basically each end and that's it! This is costing 7 Million dollars a year to operate as is and seems more wastefull than it does productive. Less than 20 K riders  per year and that's what about 300 plus riders a day? I think we either extend or shut it down.....gotta be one or the other big guy! Its time to do something or get off the pot!

For many reasons stated it makes no sense to shut it down.

IMO extention into Riverside/Avondale, San Marco and Jacksonville Municipal Stadium would bring the fiasco closer to sustaining itself.

It has been said that shutting it down would jeopardize future federal transit funding.

Perhaps an appeal to the feds for stimulus money for this bit of infastructure could prove fruitful.

Doesn't Gate supply concrete? No harm in a little quid pro quo. ;) :D

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 03, 2009, 02:37:43 AM
I believe you Ock.....but lack of vision not to mention dollars are just not getting it! The two and one half miles the Skyway runs is ludicrous. You have stops on basically each end and that's it! This is costing 7 Million dollars a year to operate as is and seems more wastefull than it does productive. Less than 20 K riders  per year and that's what about 300 plus riders a day? I think we either extend or shut it down.....gotta be one or the other big guy! Its time to do something or get off the pot!

Where did you get those numbers from?  They are wrong.  According to the APTA, the skyway averaged 1,600 riders a weekday and 114,400 passengers between the months of January and March of this year.  A decline of 9.5% since the first quarter of 08'.

see page 15 in this document: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q1_ridership_APTA.pdf

By the way, this document has the ridership information for all US transit systems and modes.

That's a projected 457,600 riders for the year.  Not bad considering how much of a 'failure' this thing is.  I bet that number is way higher than a lot of people expect.

And we've still not hit the football season proper.

Quote from: stjr on September 02, 2009, 08:37:44 PM
A "Riverside Extension" would be near Blue Cross/Fidelity, to the east of I-95.  So what trips will this generate?  Fidelity and Blue Cross employees going downtown to lunch and back?  That's hardly a justification for expansion.

Let's low-ball and assume that 500 of those BCBS, Fidelity, Everbank, and whatever other employees in that are do indeed use the Skyway to hit downtown for lunch.  Or even to Hemming Plaza for a hot dog from a street vendor.  Or to the Southbank to RCBC.

That's 500 additional round-trips a day.  Per-day, per-week, per-year, that 125,000 additional trips/riders.  Further raising the abysmal ridership rate to something less abysmal.

Therefore, extension to places people are = increased ridership.

Not to mention: Downtown-> Brooklyn-> Riverside-> Avondale-> Ortega etc.... Same logic applies in all directions.

This is how the expansion will happen. In stages, but hopefully in much qucker stages than history suggests.

Yeah that's what I was thinking - it not only gets you to the surrounding urban neighborhoods outside of downtown, but it also can bring people into downtown as well.

I'd wager there are more people who live in Riverside that do not or prefer not to operate vehicles than say, for example, people in Middleburg/Orange Park or some other far away suburb. The ridership could only increase, not decrease with such an extension.

Additionally, I have to walk 3 blocks from my condo to get to the closest Skyway Station, which is closer than a lot of the other residential towers in downtown. The proposed Forest St. extension is pretty close to RAM, the Cummer, 5 points, Riverside Square, Memorial Park, etc...

This aversion to being on ones feet for more than 3 minutes bewilders me  ;D

I agree!

The skyway needs to go futher than the mass-transit-minded are willing to walk.

I stated earlier that during a lease at the Strand, I would opt to walk over the main st bridge to go to the landing for a cheap lunch with my wife and three daughters. It was easier to walk than ride.

To the library however, we would take the monorail. Had it gone close to the cummer art gallery, we would most certainly taken that trip as well.

One of the most important aspects, which has been mentioned by others, is stations going to destinations, as well as other transit links.

JMS, San Marco Sq, Avondale Shopping Ctr, Main and Pearl, and even to the Courthouse at Beach Blvd. (Hideous, I know, but a practical destination.)

If such expansion proves to sustain itself, or even get close to doing so, further expansion could be feasable.

I am not sure that the Skyway would ever go "through" Riverside and into Avondale. It's not exactly "historic" in nature and would look kind of strange amidst all the architecture and whatnot..

The 5-Points area, Stadium and Shand's via the parks, are on the original plans, the fact is we never finished it to plan. To say it is a completed "system," is a stretch, unless you consider complete enough to operate a few back and forth cars as THE SYSTEM. But however it goes, it remains incomplete. It also appears that JTA has never gone back to the federal well. Now the FTA is giving away priority funds to systems already in place, for improvements or expansions.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: braeburn on September 03, 2009, 09:53:53 AM
I am not sure that the Skyway would ever go "through" Riverside and into Avondale. It's not exactly "historic" in nature and would look kind of strange amidst all the architecture and whatnot..

Personally, I think it would work nicely. I don't know that it will happen, but I'm certain it would gain ridership.

but 500,000 riders a year is still $14 per rider on a 7 million dollar budget.
Does that make sense?

A sobering thought.

Right now, that's what it is. Extend the thing to go somewhere and ridership jumps, thus decreasing the cost-per-rider-mile of it.  A million riders is $7 per rider, etc.  

And, transit doesn't turn a profit.  Neither do roads.  That argument has been made over and over.

But the higher the ridership, the higher the percentage of income from fares that can be used to offset the expense, the better.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3757085971_6b2a66efbb.jpg)
Here's another freebie, a nice shot of the new MOSCOW MONORAIL...and no this isn't Moscow,Texas! For you sharp eyed transit nutz out there, note the STREETCAR at the curb below the monorail... Can you say INTERMODAL Jacksonville?

Quote from: buckethead on September 03, 2009, 02:51:38 PM

Quote from: braeburn on September 03, 2009, 09:53:53 AM
I am not sure that the Skyway would ever go "through" Riverside and into Avondale. It's not exactly "historic" in nature and would look kind of strange amidst all the architecture and whatnot..

Personally, I think it would work nicely. I don't know that it will happen, but I'm certain it would gain ridership.

I could see it stopping at the Annie Lytle school or elsewhere along I95, where it's just a short walk or streetcar ride to 5-Points, Riverside and Avondale.

In the very early 1970's era proposals for the, "Jacksonville Automated People Mover Demonstration Project," included some talk of ending it at Saint Vincents. St. Vincents, Baptist and Shand's, were all aggressively pro "people mover".

RAP mobilized the troops for a war, and the end was redrawn at Blue Cross. Frankly, I'm not sure you could find a contractor brave enough to try and build a MONORAIL through Riverside or Avondale, or Ortega, or Fairfax. Even though it would be good transit, it would be a horrible distruction of some of our only rare and untouched historic fabric. Sort of like a pay toilet in a diarrhea ward. I would stop it at 95, and under no condition support it going past (south of) 5-points. San Marco is different as we have the FEC right of way we could use to get close enough.
Springfield to Shand's through the edge of the park, would also be a historical iffy project. Fairfield, which is the stadium area, would be great for the Skyway as most of the history was blown to bits and the only large neighborhood that survived the great fire of 1901, fell to Jacksonville's bulldozier mentality. However taking it north of the Arlington Expressway would destroy a beautiful and historic A. P. Randolph street. The last remains of several early Jacksonville black business area's. It still has that "San Marco-5 Points-Avondale-etc" fabric.  

OCKLAWAHA

PS4 does have that possibility.....but it takes vision and a plan! Current Administration seems to be lacking both along with having amateurs running the show! Instead of the shotgun approach maybe they should be more selective and definitive? Establish priorities and organize to achieve them! I believe that is business 101 but I am just a dumb taxpayer......what do I know?

Quote from: Doctor_K on September 03, 2009, 08:52:30 AM

Quote from: stjr on September 02, 2009, 08:37:44 PM
A "Riverside Extension" would be near Blue Cross/Fidelity, to the east of I-95.  So what trips will this generate?  Fidelity and Blue Cross employees going downtown to lunch and back?  That's hardly a justification for expansion.

That's 500 additional round-trips a day.  Per-day, per-week, per-year, that 125,000 additional trips/riders.  Further raising the abysmal ridership rate to something less abysmal.

Therefore, extension to places people are = increased ridership.

Increased riders for the $ky-high-way isn't saying much.  It needs to be ENOUGH of an increase to justify the investment.  500 people more a day doesn't cut it.  It needs thousands more.

And, let's be clear, the only expansion of the $ky-high-way realistically discussed here has been to the east of I-95.  That's not going to pull in those living in the existing residential areas of Riverside/Avondale/Ortega to the west of I-95.

Running the $ky-high-way through 5 Points is of questionable feasibility to me but, that aside, it would sure destroy the current ambiance of the area.  I would expect a big backlash against it going there.  A street car system throughout Riverside, etc. is a much better solution as it, IMHO, always is when stacked against the $ky-high-way.

And, as I have pointed out previously, the $ky-high-way has failed spectacularly to spur development around its stops.  In many cases, it may have done just the opposite.  So claims about future prospects for development supporting it ring hollow.

Just wondering, what number increase would justify the investment?  We all know no form of transit really breaks even or makes a profit directly.  What should the annual loss be on the skyway, in your opinion, to make it worth keeping?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2009, 03:21:14 PM
Just wondering, what number increase would justify the investment?  We all know no form of transit really breaks even or makes a profit directly.  What should the annual loss be on the skyway, in your opinion, to make it worth keeping?

Lake, I think we could say with some level of confidence there is a need for mass transit and the main question is, what is the most effective mode to deliver it.  The "market" for alternatives should set the standard for costs versus ridership.

What I mean is that we should compare all available alternative modes, models, methods, configurations, technologies, etc. for transiting people and goods in a given area and FAIRLY (not politically) evaluate them on the basis of people served, convenience, accessibility, investment, capacity, feasibility, operating and maintenance costs, service lives, community impacts, etc. and make value-based decisions.

My argument against the $ky-high-way is that, based on any reasonable set of criteria, it would come in last, or close to last place, in total value to the community.  The only "asset" it has is that it already exists.  I believe its shortfalls are so great versus other transit modes, that this still leaves it far short of justifying continued and/or additional investment in it.

stjr..........I agree! $kyway's only asset is that it is in place and it is running! However badly that might be and it is used to a certain degree. But 7 million a year to operate what is really a very short very limited commuter line seems to be a waste. That 7 million dollars could be used elsewhere to a better advantage for all of us just not the people who happen to live in that area. It is usefull for them but not someone who lives on the southside@

Is the $7 million figure correct (it was $4 million two years ago)?  If so, what is the $7 million being spent on?  Is there a way to reduce that cost while getting more out of the system?  Have the possibilities even been explored?

Btw, public transit does not break even.  What is the desired loss a year for the skyway (or any system) to be viewed as worth keeping?

lake........that 7 Million figure was also included in a post on the JOL Forum. There was a post regarding the JEA and JTA Budgets sailing through the Council review and that 7 Million figure was included as the operating Budget for the Skyway. Not sure how it could swell to 7 from the 4  stated several years back though! No upgrades that I am aware of and we know for sure that there is no expansion planned. Just that figure sticks out in my mind and I have to agree....how did it grow?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2009, 08:31:02 AM
Btw, public transit does not break even.  What is the desired loss a year for the skyway (or any system) to be viewed as worth keeping?

Lake, here is one possible answer to your question: Mass transit is worthy if it incurs losses less than or equal to those uncovered costs incurred (i.e. the subsidy) for the same number of mass transit riders making the same trips on our road ways.  Road costs should include ROW, construction and financing costs, maintenance and operations, costs of environmental impacts, costs of lower development density associated with roads versus mass transit, costs of excess travel time by riders in road traffic versus in mass transit, and, of course, the costs of putting vehicles on the roads including vehicle depreciation, fuel, maintenance, and insurance.  Perhaps the medical and social costs of higher accident rates on roads versus mass transit should also be considered.