Elements of Urbanism: Nashville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/561498710_Z4QQM-M.jpg)
Nashville has more things in common with Jacksonville than the average person may realize, but a struggling downtown isn't one of them.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-jun-elements-of-urbanism-nashville
nice pics. Did you ride on the Star, Ennis?
Yes very nice. Nice downtown pics. I wonder why cities similiar sizes or smaller seem to have together more than we do.
Looks like a great place to live.
Not to excuse Jacksonville's mistakes, but I'd say a big part of the reason Nashville has it more together than Jax does is the abundance of tourism. In Charlotte's case I'd attribute it not only to a wise mayor in McCrory but to the strong influence of the banks headquartered there. I often wonder if Jax wouldn't be closer to these peer cities from an urban planning perspective had Barnett managed to get on the ball more quickly re: acquiring out-of-state banks and had built a Wachovia or BB&T-level empire. I have the book "Barnett: The Story of Florida's Bank" and in hindsight it's incredibly frustrating that opportunities were missed and Jax consequently lost the advantage of having a major bank headquartered there that was strongly committed to its community.
Wow, I never knew Nashville was so cool. I love how even the TGI Fridays exterior looks like a local joint instead of the big box retail. These photos should be a good guide to the construction and design community for examples, thanks! One of the big problems with JAX is that we continue to grow out instead of up. Hopefully, one day we grow up and then better things will follow?
What a beautiful City...clean, pristine, modern, bustling; Jacksonville could learn a lot from Nashville. These two Cities appear to have a lot in common both now and in the past, but one of the Cities has overcome its obstacles while the other one (Jax) is still basically stuck.
Hope Gardens is what Springfield could be and the direction that it might be heading, and the Gulch is what our Port/Industrial District could become.
It appears at one time Nashville was lacking, starving, and in despair just like Jacksonville basically is now, don't get me wrong, Jax is much better than a decade or more ago, but we have a long way to go. Obviously City Leaders in Nashville have taken the initiative to think and focus much bigger than just within their city limits.
Jax must learn to do this and make it come to fruition, if not, Jacksonville will remain stuck within its own City limits and will forever be known as the small town within a big City.
Heights Unknown
I agree, Nashville is a nice place, and it's way ahead of Jacksonville. I have nothing but positive things to say about the West End, the Gulch, the Music City Star, the farmers market, etc.
However, I'd be extremely careful about lauding Nashville's downtown entertainment district too much. It's a perfect example of a "retail facade" rather than a true functional core. While they have several amazing streets with vibrant activity - like Wacca Palatka just said - it's tourist oriented. It serves visitors and not residents. If you walk a couple blocks in any direction, you'll find a downtown with most of the same problems as Jacksonville.
For example, I recognize this corner very well. If you had turned around and taken another picture, we would have seen a surface parking lot with an ugly billboard, surrounded on the other three sides by ugly modernist government social services buildings with zero street interaction. Hard to imagine considering how pretty this looks - but true. (http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563008816_FrrLG-M.jpg)
It would be dangerous to try and follow Nashville's example. Destination retail is great when it works, but not everywhere can make it succeed. (This was the type mistake that most cities made over the past couple of decades.) More often than not, you are left with empty entertainment districts without the population to sustain them.
Again, I really like Nashville a lot. In many other ways, it's a good example to follow. For example, the area around Vanderbilt is an awesome illustration of suburban chain stores that have been slowly retrofitted by an urban zoning overlay. It's really fantastic.
However, Jacksonville should not look to its entertainment district as a model. Nashville's retail is a tourist district supported by visitors that we simply don't have. As one of the most de-populated urban centers in the US, Jacksonville needs to focus revitilization on residents above all else. My two cents.
A former co-worker of mine was from Nashville and he raved about it all the time. He used to play in some jam band their and said the music scene was amazing. So it got me thinking, since Jacksonville has a large population of jazz students, why don’t we have a stronger jazz presence in Jacksonville. Is it lack of venues, lack of desire to play? I know we just had the jazz fest and there are a few outdoor concerts, etc... I’m talking about walking downtown at night and hearing horns in the distance kind of vibe.
Didn't Nashville have a downtown shopping mall that failed in the 80s-90s, centered around a couple of the surviving downtown department stores (one was Castner-Knott and I forget the other(s))? This was before tourists and residents started coming back downtown. Nashville's downtown boom is a relatively recent phenomenon; even the tourist district looked pretty ragged and forgotten for a while, and at one point there was even talk of razing the Ryman Auditorium, which is mind-boggling to consider now.
Looks like a great place to live. I can't believe you guys hadn't profiled Nashville yet.
Quote from: Joe on June 19, 2009, 09:05:19 AM
For example, I recognize this corner very well. If you had turned around and taken another picture, we would have seen a surface parking lot with an ugly billboard, surrounded on the other three sides by ugly modernist government social services buildings with zero street interaction. Hard to imagine considering how pretty this looks - but true. (http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563008816_FrrLG-M.jpg)
Under "Common Downtown Albatross," an abundance of surface parking is mentioned. Here is a shot of the building in the image above from a different angle.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563004064_iYKUy-M.jpg)
Nevertheless, I must admit that you can't find many lots in the downtown core that look like the image below. Even the surface lots appear to be decently maintained.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/520660183_ZND6G-M.jpg)
QuoteIt would be dangerous to try and follow Nashville's example. Destination retail is great when it works, but not everywhere can make it succeed. (This was the type mistake that most cities made over the past couple of decades.) More often than not, you are left with empty entertainment districts without the population to sustain them.
Nashville appears to be a city that built its tourism base by promoting its history and the music industry that sprouted up there. From this angle, that is something Jacksonville should look into. If you can promote and build on the things that make the region unique and special, other issues will be easier to address over time.
QuoteAgain, I really like Nashville a lot. In many other ways, it's a good example to follow. For example, the area around Vanderbilt is an awesome illustration of suburban chain stores that have been slowly retrofitted by an urban zoning overlay. It's really fantastic.
My guess is that the Springfield Overlay will result in similar development. 3rd & Main is a good example of this. A zoning overlay that reduces maximum building setback and off-street parking requirements should be developed for the entire urban core, imo.
QuoteHowever, Jacksonville should not look to its entertainment district as a model. Nashville's retail is a tourist district supported by visitors that we simply don't have. As one of the most de-populated urban centers in the US, Jacksonville needs to focus revitilization on residents above all else. My two cents.
I agree. However, what Jacksonville can take from Nashville's tourist district is "connectivity". It works the way it does because a ton of complementing uses are lumped together in a compact setting. Regardless of how we develop, complementing pedestrian friendly uses and structures should be clustered together to stimulate synergy in a compact setting.
Quote from: TPC on June 19, 2009, 09:34:43 AM
A former co-worker of mine was from Nashville and he raved about it all the time. He used to play in some jam band their and said the music scene was amazing. So it got me thinking, since Jacksonville has a large population of jazz students, why don’t we have a stronger jazz presence in Jacksonville. Is it lack of venues, lack of desire to play? I know we just had the jazz fest and there are a few outdoor concerts, etc... I’m talking about walking downtown at night and hearing horns in the distance kind of vibe.
Good questions. I've wondered for a while now why Jacksonville has been reluctant to promote its musical heritage on a much larger scale. It seems like the ingredients are here, but they need to be better connected and clustered together.
I love Nashville! Your pictures really capture a great deal of what I remember from the multiple times I have been there. One of the things that Nashville has done well is clustering it's infill. Along Broadway and around the Summit Center and the new Symphony Hall, there is hardly a vacant lot or large surface parking lot left. Nashville also has had a great deal of residential infill within it's downtown area. There are many buildings that have been built new, but instead of clearing the whole block, they restored the old buildings and then built the new to compliment the old.
Here are my urban core thoughts based on Nashville:
1. Clustering is vital. Let's take Bay Street and really focus on it. Putting the Convention Center on the old courthouse site is a no-brainer! Infusing hundreds of people a week into this part of downtown will bring the private developers. We will have shops and restaurants in no time.
2. Nashville's urban core is more square than Jacksonville's. The river and FBC/State/Union make our downtown more lengthy and less walkable. We have to find a way to make this less prohibitive, so we need streetcars or a skyway extension to connect the Times Union/Landing with the Memorial Arena. Building the arena away from the core was really a huge mistake, so now we need to work on connecting it. The Shipyards land is vital in this plan. It has to become an extension of Bay Street with restaurants, shops, museums, a hotel, the docked ship and of course, more residential.
3. Someday we can move the jail to Lavilla next to the courthouse and all of a sudden we have a government district! Plus filling in the current jail site with perhaps office, residential, an urban Target and other retail would then create a happening Bay Street. One long corridor of vibrant life that does not die at 6pm.
4. What happens then once Bay street is all filled up? The developers want in on the action, so they start building on Forsyth and then Adams and pretty soon wow! Jacksonville has a happening urban core and is truly the New Bold City of the South. ;)
Now I know you "Debbie Downers" will say, well the economy is bad and the city shouldn't be the one developing this land, the city is broke, I'm not paying any more fees, we have too much crime, blah, blah, blah. The point of this is that all cities make public investments; a main library, a city hall, a courthouse, a convention center, a performance arena. Brilliant cities will wisely plot and build these investments in certain parts of their cities, thus promoting and molding the city into what they want it to be. Look at Jacksonville now.
The Prime Osborn is 0.6 miles from the Omni and 1.0 miles from the Hyatt.
The Memorial Arena is 1.0 miles from the Hyatt and 1.1 miles from the Landing.
Metro Park is 0.9 miles from the bars on Bay Street with nothing in between.
This city has got to stop investing with small bubbles that can't be popped. If I want to go to metro park, I drive, and when I leave, chances are since I'm already in my car I will go home or stop at a restaurant closer to my house.
If I am attending a function at the Prime Osborn and already paid for parking once, chances are I'm not going to drive downtown and eat. If I'm going to a concert at Memorial Arena, I know it will cost me $5 to park and I don't want to have to pay to park at the Landing for dinner, so I will eat at my suburban chain. We have to change our thinking and plan ahead for a better Jacksonville. Funny how it was called a Better Jacksonville Plan, yet...well, I'll let that be for now.
QuoteLook at Jacksonville now.
The Prime Osborn is 0.6 miles from the Omni and 1.0 miles from the Hyatt.
The Memorial Arena is 1.0 miles from the Hyatt and 1.1 miles from the Landing.
Metro Park is 0.9 miles from the bars on Bay Street with nothing in between.
This city has got to stop investing with small bubbles that can't be popped. If I want to go to metro park, I drive, and when I leave, chances are since I'm already in my car I will go home or stop at a restaurant closer to my house.
If I am attending a function at the Prime Osborn and already paid for parking once, chances are I'm not going to drive downtown and eat. If I'm going to a concert at Memorial Arena, I know it will cost me $5 to park and I don't want to have to pay to park at the Landing for dinner, so I will eat at my suburban chain. We have to change our thinking and plan ahead for a better Jacksonville. Funny how it was called a Better Jacksonville Plan, yet...well, I'll let that be for now.
Bravo! Great post, Brainstormer.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 10:03:05 AM
Quote from: TPC on June 19, 2009, 09:34:43 AM
A former co-worker of mine was from Nashville and he raved about it all the time. He used to play in some jam band their and said the music scene was amazing. So it got me thinking, since Jacksonville has a large population of jazz students, why don’t we have a stronger jazz presence in Jacksonville. Is it lack of venues, lack of desire to play? I know we just had the jazz fest and there are a few outdoor concerts, etc... I’m talking about walking downtown at night and hearing horns in the distance kind of vibe.
Good questions. I've wondered for a while now why Jacksonville has been reluctant to promote its musical heritage on a much larger scale. It seems like the ingredients are here, but they need to be better connected and clustered together.
I have seen at least three brilliant ideas on this in my lurking on this site for years. First, the Southern Rock Hall of Fame concept; second, Ocklawaha's daughter's idea for the Jacksonville walk of fame with plaques; third, Stephen Dare's idea about preserving Genovar's Hall and selling souvenirs commemorating the many stars who performed in LaVilla.
What can be done to make some of these items happen? I was not sure of the status of Genovar's Hall, which seems to have been in limbo eternally. Something like the Walk of Fame seems like it can be implemented fairly easily; I'd donate to it. Could CSX, which funded some of the Northbank Riverwalk plaques; or another company strongly dedicated to the core (e.g. Modis), be approached about assisting with this? Has anyone heard anything about the Southern Rock Hall of Fame concept lately?
All great ideas. Two more I would add to the list are an Aquarium with maybe an underwater component utilizing the St. Johns. Part of it could embrace the shipping history here in Jacksonville.
We also need to encourage city leaders to support the museum ship being docked downtown. I forgot the name of the developer, but it is posted somewhere on this site in another thread.
The question then becomes who invests and where do we strategically place destination points such as museums to benefit future growth in the urban core.
Damn it, glad to see I still can't spell at 22.
Anyways, that image of the Central Parking surface lot on Church St is one of another 4 along this most important downtown street. It really hurts it's connectivity and hurts the appeal. However, with plenty of new landscaping, music playing through hidden speakers, and an overall positive environment, this treet has become the breath of the new downtown. You'd be surprised to know that until the 1990's when Bredesen was then just starting as Nashville mayor, a law prohibited downtown residential developments. Thie first big one didn't come along until 4 years later in 1998 with The Cumberland built.
The Courthouse Square has a little known detail. Below it is an underground garage, and City Hall fronts is, not the courthouse. The Birch Courthouse is actually behind it, yet was built to mimic the art deco jewel that is Metro Nashville City Hall and Council Chambers.
I meant to say HCA is also near downtown, but most of the larger HQs are in the burbs. Such as Nissan in Franklin, Tractor Supply Company in Brentwood, Dollar General in Goodlettsville, and Franklin-American in Franklin. I also emant to mention that a fastly growing financial and banking company, Pinnacle Finanical is HQd downtown, and will move into their shiny, new The Pinnacle, which can be seen in various images.
Edgefield is actually more like what Springfield can become, and not so much Midtown. I'd argue with Brooklyn becoming like Nashville's Midtown. One thing that can really help downtown Jax is by intigrating FSCJ more with the downtown surroundings and switching the two one way speedways around it.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 10:00:29 AM
QuoteAgain, I really like Nashville a lot. In many other ways, it's a good example to follow. For example, the area around Vanderbilt is an awesome illustration of suburban chain stores that have been slowly retrofitted by an urban zoning overlay. It's really fantastic.
My guess is that the Springfield Overlay will result in similar development. 3rd & Main is a good example of this. A zoning overlay that reduces maximum building setback and off-street parking requirements should be developed for the entire urban core, imo.
I couldn't agree more, Lakelander. I'd go as far to suggest that for commercial zones outside the urban core too - Parts of San Jose Blvd, University Blvd, or even parts of Blanding! An urban inspired form-based zoning (with density bonus) could serve as a huge revitalization tool.
Nashville is a great example of what can be done with a decaying city. As a former resident, I can attest that pretty much anything inside of the 440 ring road (and probably a couple of neighborhoods just outside of it like Green Hills, Avalon, Lipscomb, Berry Hill, etc.) are rather walkable.
The city only appears to revolve around country music if you don't live there, but the tourism draw certainly helps. It's fairly easy to ignore of you're not into it and thanks to the abundance of session musicians, there's a good music scene of all sorts. I hate country music and I found plenty of things to keep me in downtown, Hillsboro Village, West End, and elsewhere several nights a week. Look among the bars and tourist shops and it's still a workable downtown.
There's a huge difference between living in urban and suburban Nashville. While many have now embraced a more vibrant urban core, there was a time when most suburbanites came downtown only for a conert or a Titans' game (but even then, they stayed downtown for a few hours). We found that most friends in burbs claimed there was hardly a reason to come downtown or that is was dangerous, so instead they stayed happily ensconsed in Brentwood or Franklin. So I'd say Nashville fought many of the same hearts & mind stumbling blocks to revitalization as Jackosnville.
I'd say that the Jacksonville-Nashville development gap is explained mostly by:
1) Mayoral leadership that embraced downtown revitalization and expert planning. (It took 2 good mayors in a row.)
2) Nashville has an identity as a city...which means tourism dollars
3) Nashville has several universities in the urban core
4) Nashville used the Titans as way to get local back downtown and rejuvenate interest in struggling urban areas.
5) Neighborhoodism is embraced in urban Nashville. There are several neighborhoods that Jax locals could equate to Riverside/Avondale (Hillsboro Village, Belmont -12 South-Avalon, Sylvan Park...) in terms of a live-work-play mix. Nashville's Springfield equivilent, East Nashville, attracted edgy bars and new restaurants long before most of the old houses were restored or infill residential began.
6) Nashville has a master urban development plan and a skilled, experienced planning office that is neither too developer friendly, nor too rigid in their vision.
Nashville provided a better lifestyle during it's "growing pangs" period than Jax does currently. If I could afford my old neighborhood, and the city would move into the eastern time zone, I'd go back in heartbeat--and that' saying a lot for an urbanite who was reluctantly dragged to Tennessee by career and spouse.
Jax has great bones to work with --and fantastic proximity to the beach -- having experienced Nashville and several other cities' relatively rapid renewal, it's frustrating to see Jax struggle.
Since CSX provided the other riverwalk plaques in the recent past, I was thinking of writing CSX about the Walk of Fame plaques idea. Does anyone on the board have a particular connection to CSX or another suggestion? Any particular suggestion on where a Walk of Fame would be located--Bay? Laura? Riverwalk?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 10:03:05 AM
Quote from: TPC on June 19, 2009, 09:34:43 AM
A former co-worker of mine was from Nashville and he raved about it all the time. He used to play in some jam band their and said the music scene was amazing. So it got me thinking, since Jacksonville has a large population of jazz students, why don’t we have a stronger jazz presence in Jacksonville. Is it lack of venues, lack of desire to play? I know we just had the jazz fest and there are a few outdoor concerts, etc... I’m talking about walking downtown at night and hearing horns in the distance kind of vibe.
Good questions. I've wondered for a while now why Jacksonville has been reluctant to promote its musical heritage on a much larger scale. It seems like the ingredients are here, but they need to be better connected and clustered together.
Being a musician and having lived in Jacksonville, there is really no "firm" musical and foundation root(s) in Jacksonville. Someone mentioned the jazz students that attend the scool of jazz, and why we don't capitalize on that; well...it takes someone, or a group to get that idea off the carpet and running; until there are venues and places for those jazz students and others into jazz to showcase the music, and turn jazz into something that is identifiable with Jacksonville, it won't happen.
So what can Jacksonville capitalize on "music-wise?" Well, we all know that country-rock, country, and rock in general are pretty solid staples in Jacksonville, as is the old "classic rock" genre from the 60's and 70's, we should try and capitalize on that. And...a few stars, mainly classic rock, country rock and rock are from Jacksonville, Lynard Skynard is a prime example, capitalize on them.
Just a thought.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: JaxByDefault on June 19, 2009, 12:11:15 PM
Nashville is a great example of what can be done with a decaying city. As a former resident, I can attest that pretty much anything inside of the 440 ring road (and probably a couple of neighborhoods just outside of it like Green Hills, Avalon, Lipscomb, Berry Hill, etc.) are rather walkable.
The city only appears to revolve around country music if you don't live there, but the tourism draw certainly helps. It's fairly easy to ignore of you're not into it and thanks to the abundance of session musicians, there's a good music scene of all sorts. I hate country music and I found plenty of things to keep me in downtown, Hillsboro Village, West End, and elsewhere several nights a week. Look among the bars and tourist shops and it's still a workable downtown.
There's a huge difference between living in urban and suburban Nashville. While many have now embraced a more vibrant urban core, there was a time when most suburbanites came downtown only for a conert or a Titans' game (but even then, they stayed downtown for a few hours). We found that most friends in burbs claimed there was hardly a reason to come downtown or that is was dangerous, so instead they stayed happily ensconsed in Brentwood or Franklin. So I'd say Nashville fought many of the same hearts & mind stumbling blocks to revitalization as Jackosnville.
I'd say that the Jacksonville-Nashville development gap is explained mostly by:
1) Mayoral leadership that embraced downtown revitalization and expert planning. (It took 2 good mayors in a row.)
2) Nashville has an identity as a city...which means tourism dollars
3) Nashville has several universities in the urban core
4) Nashville used the Titans as way to get local back downtown and rejuvenate interest in struggling urban areas.
5) Neighborhoodism is embraced in urban Nashville. There are several neighborhoods that Jax locals could equate to Riverside/Avondale (Hillsboro Village, Belmont -12 South-Avalon, Sylvan Park...) in terms of a live-work-play mix. Nashville's Springfield equivilent, East Nashville, attracted edgy bars and new restaurants long before most of the old houses were restored or infill residential began.
6) Nashville has a master urban development plan and a skilled, experienced planning office that is neither too developer friendly, nor too rigid in their vision.
Nashville provided a better lifestyle during it's "growing pangs" period than Jax does currently. If I could afford my old neighborhood, and the city would move into the eastern time zone, I'd go back in heartbeat--and that' saying a lot for an urbanite who was reluctantly dragged to Tennessee by career and spouse.
Jax has great bones to work with --and fantastic proximity to the beach -- having experienced Nashville and several other cities' relatively rapid renewal, it's frustrating to see Jax struggle.
Obviously Nashville's leadership has been top quality leaders and they have been on the ball. Here we are (Jax) 5 Mayors or more later, and our downtown is still incomplete, too many undeveloped surface parking lots, empty lots, sparse developments with little or no infills, and the whole downtown in a very badly planned and unorganized condition.
Hope it gets better soon. Top notch, high visioned and well focused leaders are the biggest key.
Heights Unknown
Basically the entire Southern rock genre was born in Jacksonville. In addition to Skynyrd, the Allmans played there in their formative years, and many of the next tier bands (Molly Hatchet, .38 Special, several others whose names are escaping me now) have Jacksonville roots.
Who exactly was involved in the Southern Rock Hall of Fame concept that was vaguely discussed in '06-'07? With the Van Zant family still part of the area, I'd imagine they could be approached about involvement with promotion and memorabilia donation.
Quote from: brainstormer on June 19, 2009, 10:47:02 AM
All great ideas. Two more I would add to the list are an Aquarium with maybe an underwater component utilizing the St. Johns. Part of it could embrace the shipping history here in Jacksonville.
We also need to encourage city leaders to support the museum ship being docked downtown. I forgot the name of the developer, but it is posted somewhere on this site in another thread.
The question then becomes who invests and where do we strategically place destination points such as museums to benefit future growth in the urban core.
Or how about making a long stretch of the Riverwalk, on both sides, an aquarium by having those long stretches made out of high textured glass where we can actually see into the River...boy, that would be breathtaking, seeing the River bottom, fish, litter (LOL), etc. from the Riverwalk.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 19, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Basically the entire Southern rock genre was born in Jacksonville. In addition to Skynyrd, the Allmans played there in their formative years, and many of the next tier bands (Molly Hatchet, .38 Special, several others whose names are escaping me now) have Jacksonville roots.
Who exactly was involved in the Southern Rock Hall of Fame concept that was vaguely discussed in '06-'07? With the Van Zant family still part of the area, I'd imagine they could be approached about involvement with promotion and memorabilia donation.
That is a great idea Wacca Pilatka about having the Van Zant family involved; I'll bet they'd be honored and proud to be a part in the promotion and planning of such an idea.
Heights Unknown
Snyder church is the obvious jazz venue. Refurbish the interior and exterior... add a full bar. Out side on the sidewalk(where the cops park) you could have a sidewalk act. Across the street at hemming could be utilized on weekends. There you have it.
Jazz venue extraordinaire!!
I'm from Nashville originally, and I can tell you...pre-mid 90's, the Nashville downtown was a mess. No one there, no one lived there, no entertainment, no dining....much like Jax downtown.
Nashville created a city center. Jacksonville has always struggled to create a city center due to the natural draw of so many wanting to live near the beach.
Nashville, San Antonio, Charlotte, good cities for us to model after. They have done it right!
www.BradOfficer.com (http://www.bradofficer.com)
One thing that seems obvious to me: Even though some thought Jacksonville's sidewalks were adequate when I raised the issue on a thread, these pictures tell me "no way!". Nashville's walks are much wider, nicely treed for shade, and much more pedestrian friendly. Jax couldn't handle these crowds if we had them. We need to take a much harder look at our streetscapes.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563008917_tTcD9-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/562468163_LeogM-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/562468009_SNLC4-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/562467507_PDZdp-M.jpg)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 19, 2009, 12:48:52 PM
Snyder church is the obvious jazz venue. Refurbish the interior and exterior... add a full bar. Out side on the sidewalk(where the cops park) you could have a sidewalk act. Across the street at hemming could be utilized on weekends. There you have it.
Jazz venue extraordinaire!!
Near me in Norfolk, there is an old church called Freemason Abbey that was converted to a popular restaurant. Its physical similarity to the Snyder always makes me picture Snyder as a restaurant or performance venue. Maybe its use at the jazz festival will be an inspiration to an investor.
Great tour and a great looking city. Very similar to Jax in many ways.
How much of an added benefit comes from being the state capitol? If Tallahassee's government infrastructure was here instead we'd likely have a much stonger developed core similar to our competitors like Nashville. Now, that doesn't guarantee that Jax would have been more vibrant and connected, however, Nashville is certainly benefitting from the additional downtown workforce, parks, memorials, money....
I the long run, I still wholeheartedly believe the city will get her act together and capitalize on the inherent amenities located in and around Jacksonville.
While we are at it, note the DOWNTOWN RIVERFRONT venue for large events in the picture below. Without the Shipyards and/or JEA property, this won't be happening in Jacksonville:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563006504_ZLEKD-M.jpg)
Quote from: Jason on June 19, 2009, 12:58:34 PM
Great tour and a great looking city. Very similar to Jax in many ways.
How much of an added benefit comes from being the state capitol? If Tallahassee's government infrastructure was here instead we'd likely have a much stonger developed core similar to our competitors like Nashville. Now, that doesn't guarantee that Jax would have been more vibrant and connected, however, Nashville is certainly benefitting from the additional downtown workforce, parks, memorials, money....
I the long run, I still wholeheartedly believe the city will get her act together and capitalize on the inherent amenities located in and around Jacksonville.
I think the state capitol definitely makes a difference. That's part of why downtown Indianapolis looks so vibrant too.
Quote from: stjr on June 19, 2009, 12:53:30 PM
One thing that seems obvious to me: Even though some thought Jacksonville's sidewalks were adequate when I raised the issue on a thread, these pictures tell me "no way!". Nashville's walks are much wider, nicely treed for shade, and much more pedestrian friendly. Jax couldn't handle these crowds if we had them. We need to take a much harder look at our streetscapes.
for the most part, Jacksonville's sidewalk widths are similar to Nashville. The two images you show are of Church Street, which has appeared to be the recipient of a recent streetscape project.
Here are a few images of downtown Nashville streets with narrower sidewalks.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563008398_CMXau-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563008898_taxjT-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563007340_PfGFZ-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563005586_X8VCP-M.jpg)
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 19, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 19, 2009, 12:58:34 PM
Great tour and a great looking city. Very similar to Jax in many ways.
How much of an added benefit comes from being the state capitol? If Tallahassee's government infrastructure was here instead we'd likely have a much stonger developed core similar to our competitors like Nashville. Now, that doesn't guarantee that Jax would have been more vibrant and connected, however, Nashville is certainly benefitting from the additional downtown workforce, parks, memorials, money....
I the long run, I still wholeheartedly believe the city will get her act together and capitalize on the inherent amenities located in and around Jacksonville.
I think the state capitol definitely makes a difference. That's part of why downtown Indianapolis looks so vibrant too.
I think it helps but its not the end all. Norfolk is a great example of a non-state capitol, with a beach (VA Beach) and a vibrant downtown core. Regardless of the economic stimulators, it really boils down to "connectivity" and "clustering" complementing development.
Norfolk: Jacksonville's Twin?http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-jul-norfolk-jacksonvilles-twin
Having visited Nashville several times over the past 15 years, much has changed...and most of it has been in the last 8-10 years.
That said, it is important to note that most of this costs $....TN has a pretty high sales tax rate....whcih includes Nashville's 2.25% local option....how many folks in Jax (or on this site for that matter) would support a local sales tax like that?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 19, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 19, 2009, 12:58:34 PM
Great tour and a great looking city. Very similar to Jax in many ways.
How much of an added benefit comes from being the state capitol? If Tallahassee's government infrastructure was here instead we'd likely have a much stonger developed core similar to our competitors like Nashville. Now, that doesn't guarantee that Jax would have been more vibrant and connected, however, Nashville is certainly benefitting from the additional downtown workforce, parks, memorials, money....
I the long run, I still wholeheartedly believe the city will get her act together and capitalize on the inherent amenities located in and around Jacksonville.
I think the state capitol definitely makes a difference. That's part of why downtown Indianapolis looks so vibrant too.
I think it helps but its not the end all. Norfolk is a great example of a non-state capitol, with a beach (VA Beach) and a vibrant downtown core. Regardless of the economic stimulators, it really boils down to "connectivity" and "clustering" complementing development.
Norfolk: Jacksonville's Twin?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-jul-norfolk-jacksonvilles-twin
That is one of my favorite articles of yours, as I live in Tidewater Va. Norfolk has done a tremendous job with respect to connectivity (a concept I've learned about primarily from the articles on this site).
Of course, Norfolk and Indianapolis are two of the cities that have gotten the downtown mall presentation "right," as opposed to Nashville, which evidently got it wrong before it got its downtown right.
A downtown mall for Nashville probably wouldn't do so great even today, because all the high end stores are locaing to The Mall at Green Hills and vicinity, where money is thrown around like toilet paper.
Quote from: reednavy on June 19, 2009, 01:43:14 PM
A downtown mall for Nashville probably wouldn't do so great even today, because all the high end stores are locaing to The Mall at Green Hills and vicinity, where money is thrown around like toilet paper.
Agreed.
I really don't understand the need to bring the suburbs downtown with downtown malls or chain-laden mini-burbs like The Landing. It's not like Green Hills Mall is a far drive from anywhere in the Nashville core.
...and yes, Green Hills Mall -- especially after the re-do-- dwarfs the consumption at SJTC. It even managed to suck the soul out of Davis-Kidd bookstore, a sin for which no mere Prada or Tiffanys can ever compensate.
Similar development will likely cluster around SJTC until something newer comes along. Malls are probably the su/urban construct with the least amount of longevity and the most need for continued "updating." However, even Green Hills in established neighborhoods (Old Green Hills/Woodmont and Lipscomb/Belmont). It's the equivilent of if JAX had a mall in Avondale.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 01:05:42 PM
Quote from: stjr on June 19, 2009, 12:53:30 PM
One thing that seems obvious to me: Even though some thought Jacksonville's sidewalks were adequate when I raised the issue on a thread, these pictures tell me "no way!". Nashville's walks are much wider, nicely treed for shade, and much more pedestrian friendly. Jax couldn't handle these crowds if we had them. We need to take a much harder look at our streetscapes.
for the most part, Jacksonville's sidewalk widths are similar to Nashville. The two images you show are of Church Street, which has appeared to be the recipient of a recent streetscape project.
OK, Lake, I'll take your word for it (although I still percieve a lot more friendliness in Nashville based on the overall tone of the activity in the pictures, especially the picture of the Buffalo Billiards sign you, yourself, cited). BUT... we don't have even one street that compares to that. Where do we begin?
For one, our sign ordinance needs to be changed for downtown. Ordinances can be zip code specific. Do you notice stjr all of the neat signs and storefronts on the Nashville streets? Jacksonville's current ordinance does not allow for any fun and creativity. Also we need to encourage and allow for sidewalk seating, similar to Marks and Ivy.
When we build the new convention center on the old courthouse site, I'm hoping we design the side that faces Bay to allow for street level retail and this would be a great place to make sure the sidewalk is wide enough to have sidewalk seating.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 19, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
That said, it is important to note that most of this costs $....TN has a pretty high sales tax rate....whcih includes Nashville's 2.25% local option....how many folks in Jax (or on this site for that matter) would support a local sales tax like that?
Nashville's local sales tax rate of 2.25% is actually among the lowest local option sales tax rates in Tennessee. All cities have a local option between 2.25 and 2.75%.
The combined state-local taxes are lower in Tennessee than Florida. The combined state-local tax burden (incl. property, sales, gasoline, etc) in Tennessee is 8.5% (ranking 48th in the nation.) Florida's rate is 10% (ranking 38th in the nation.) Still not bad, but it doesn't really seem like we're getting our money's worth in Jacksonville like they are in Nashville.
http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/pf/0704/gallery.tax_friendliest/8.html (http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2007/pf/0704/gallery.tax_friendliest/8.html)
I often hear on Metrojax about the advantages that state capitals have over cities; I don't see any advantages besides of course the states' governments being headquartered there. Look no further than in the state of FL, Tally is vastly overshadowed by all of the other FL metros. Look at the state of NY; They forget that Albany is the capital.
Quote from: stjr on June 19, 2009, 03:23:04 PM
OK, Lake, I'll take your word for it (although I still percieve a lot more friendliness in Nashville based on the overall tone of the activity in the pictures, especially the picture of the Buffalo Billiards sign you, yourself, cited). BUT... we don't have even one street that compares to that.
You're right. Nashville's downtown streets did feel more inviting, even the ones that did not have heavy pedestrian traffic or wide sidewalks. From my experience, it was very easily to see that they do a good job of keeping the streets clean and most of the buildings do open up to the street. Also, although they do have an abundance of parking lots, downtown's heart is pretty compact as far as building placement goes. You walk down those streets and you feel like you're in a city because buildings line both sides of them for blocks. Unfortunately, its hard to find this in the Northbank. The streets also have trees that provide shade for the pedestrian, instead of palms. There, you can walk good distances without being exposed to the sun. That's impossible here. All in all, I believe these factors play an important role in the feel of the street at human scale.
QuoteWhere do we begin?
Brainstormer mentioned some things that are worth looking into. However, we also have to get better with infill building placement, shielding surface lots and retrofitting existing buildings to interact with the sidewalks.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 19, 2009, 01:28:20 PM
Having visited Nashville several times over the past 15 years, much has changed...and most of it has been in the last 8-10 years.
That said, it is important to note that most of this costs $....TN has a pretty high sales tax rate....whcih includes Nashville's 2.25% local option....how many folks in Jax (or on this site for that matter) would support a local sales tax like that?
apples to oranges. Property taxes are much lower in Tennessee from what i have heard. Both states have no income tax either.
Quote from: stjr on June 19, 2009, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 01:05:42 PM
Quote from: stjr on June 19, 2009, 12:53:30 PM
One thing that seems obvious to me: Even though some thought Jacksonville's sidewalks were adequate when I raised the issue on a thread, these pictures tell me "no way!". Nashville's walks are much wider, nicely treed for shade, and much more pedestrian friendly. Jax couldn't handle these crowds if we had them. We need to take a much harder look at our streetscapes.
for the most part, Jacksonville's sidewalk widths are similar to Nashville. The two images you show are of Church Street, which has appeared to be the recipient of a recent streetscape project.
OK, Lake, I'll take your word for it (although I still percieve a lot more friendliness in Nashville based on the overall tone of the activity in the pictures, especially the picture of the Buffalo Billiards sign you, yourself, cited). BUT... we don't have even one street that compares to that. Where do we begin?
Laura St. It is the nicest and most retail oriented street in DT.
I agree vic. And what would make it even better, more in line with what stjr wants? Here are a few ideas.
1. Open up the cafe in the library to the street and let it set its own hours. Add a few tables on the very wide sidewalk for outdoor seating and a fun creative sign. Sometimes Cafe Nola sets up tables on the sidewalk which adds to this block's activity.
2. Allow a private developer to buy or lease the Snyder Church (perfect place for a jazz club/coffeehouse). Since the city owns the building, this would be a great opportunity to pair up with someone to share the costs of restoration in exchange for a low rent lease and helping to add something new to downtown. The city really wouldn't have to spend much and after restoration would be gaining revenue.
3. Let's help in whatever way we can to do something with the Laura Street Trio and the desolate block of Laura between Forsyth and Adams. I was just talking to a young couple the other day who want to live downtown but were disappointed with the affordable options. We need more apartment options in line with or slightly under the prices of 11East and the Carling. Lots of us are not in the position to purchase a $300,000 condo or afford the Strand. We don't need stainless steel appliances and granite counter tops. Just "nice" will do!
4. Encourage mixed use infill with street level retail on the parking lot at Forsyth and Laura. Because of the Modis and BofA towers, there is a void from Forsyth to the Landing. This would help break up this walk and further connect the Landing with the rest of Laura Street.
5. Open up the Landing to the river so that it is more inviting. This of course can't happen until the city stops being a prick about the land underneath. We just need to decide if we want the Landing to continue to be part of Jacksonville. If not, then the city needs to build something else there. If we like the Landing then, sell the land so it can be privately developed. Again a chance to gain some revenue.
Encouraging more residential living on and around Laura Street would really help it blossom into more than a 9-5 street. Think of Jazz Fest when we had the shops and restaurants open later. Laura Street along with Bay Street are the two streets with the most potential to reshape and revitalize downtown. Let's encourage the mayor to not just talk, but do. Some of my ideas wouldn't cost the city much and would reap more in return. I still have a bit of hope.
Quote from: stjr on June 19, 2009, 01:01:21 PM
While we are at it, note the DOWNTOWN RIVERFRONT venue for large events in the picture below. Without the Shipyards and/or JEA property, this won't be happening in Jacksonville:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/563006504_ZLEKD-M.jpg)
And correct me if I am wrong, but the Shipyards and JEA properties are much bigger than what I see in that picture in Nashville; we can do much more with those properties and I'm sure bring in even more venues, concerts, and other activities for the City to enjoy.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 19, 2009, 01:31:40 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2009, 01:12:30 PM
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 19, 2009, 01:03:13 PM
Quote from: Jason on June 19, 2009, 12:58:34 PM
Great tour and a great looking city. Very similar to Jax in many ways.
How much of an added benefit comes from being the state capitol? If Tallahassee's government infrastructure was here instead we'd likely have a much stonger developed core similar to our competitors like Nashville. Now, that doesn't guarantee that Jax would have been more vibrant and connected, however, Nashville is certainly benefitting from the additional downtown workforce, parks, memorials, money....
I the long run, I still wholeheartedly believe the city will get her act together and capitalize on the inherent amenities located in and around Jacksonville.
I think the state capitol definitely makes a difference. That's part of why downtown Indianapolis looks so vibrant too.
I think it helps but its not the end all. Norfolk is a great example of a non-state capitol, with a beach (VA Beach) and a vibrant downtown core. Regardless of the economic stimulators, it really boils down to "connectivity" and "clustering" complementing development.
Norfolk: Jacksonville's Twin?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-jul-norfolk-jacksonvilles-twin
That is one of my favorite articles of yours, as I live in Tidewater Va. Norfolk has done a tremendous job with respect to connectivity (a concept I've learned about primarily from the articles on this site).
Of course, Norfolk and Indianapolis are two of the cities that have gotten the downtown mall presentation "right," as opposed to Nashville, which evidently got it wrong before it got its downtown right.
Sounds like Jacksonville.
Heights Unknown
I agree with Lakelander; yeah, too much "sparseness" and "outfill" in downtown Jax; we can think past leaders for that of course, but all of that is passe, and the question "what do we do now?" is a valid one. In my opinion there is no feel of "CITY," in general in downtown Jacksonville; we can thank the empty lots and parking lots lack of infill for that.
For starters we've got to quit tearing down and leaving vacant when a building becomes vacant, and, if we demolish or tear a building down, we've got to immediately find a use or development for that property. I.e., find innovative ways to restore, reconstruct or upgrade that building for a much better future use...but what scares me in that regard is most modern buildings are not built or constructed in that mold...correct me someone if I am wrong, but most modern buildings are built for a "set" life expectancy or use, and after that demolish them and build something else in their place. The old buildings were built to last, and as all of us have seen, we can tear out the interior of those old buildings and the skeleton or shell if you will, is durable and strong enough reconstruct within the interior and refurbish the exterior.
Just a thought.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 19, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Basically the entire Southern rock genre was born in Jacksonville. In addition to Skynyrd, the Allmans played there in their formative years, and many of the next tier bands (Molly Hatchet, .38 Special, several others whose names are escaping me now) have Jacksonville roots.
Who exactly was involved in the Southern Rock Hall of Fame concept that was vaguely discussed in '06-'07? With the Van Zant family still part of the area, I'd imagine they could be approached about involvement with promotion and memorabilia donation.
That is such a great idea.
Well, this scene appears to now be under water.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/562468009_SNLC4-M.jpg)
(http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/6573/slide_6573_87749_large.jpg?1273028928203)
more images: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/03/tennessee-flooding-photos_n_561436.html#s87303
Poor Nashville. Tough to see the old town under water.
I know when we lived there, almost no one off of the river thought about flood insurance. Even our old neighborhood 12 South to Lipscomb had a few blocks (adjacent to a what was normally a trickle of a creek) under water. I wish everyone well with clean up and repair.
The city moblized as soon as the waters started to rise, had a clear disaster plan, and is using some creative means to centralize issue reporting and response (twitter, google maps of flooded/damaged streets, info for citizen assistance with insurance/cleaning/rebuilding). Hopefully, they can sustain a good and rapid response effort in the tough coming days.
Nashvegas will be back up and running soon. She's tough!
The Tennessean has tons of photos: http://www.tennessean.com/
If you want to donate to help Nashville recovery efforts: http://www.cfmt.org/floodrelief/