Hopefully when this thing comes down, it does not end up as a retention pond or passive park site. Considering it is a full city block and located on the busiest corner in the downtown area, its a prime commercial site (assuming its cleaned).
QuoteLong before the Omni Hotel or the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront Hotel, there was the Park View Inn.
For decades, it was one of the only places for visitors to stay in downtown Jacksonville.
Today, the pillaged and fire-damaged building that stands at the corner of State and Main streets is a ghost of its former self.
Any hopes its owners had of refurbishing the old hotel are about to dashed by a wrecking ball.
The city of Jacksonville plans to tear down the building as early as this summer.
Few are mourning its passing.
"I remember growing up it was a very viable hotel. It was a place where residents visited frequently," said Ju'Coby Pittman-Peele, CEO and president of the nearby Clara White Mission. But now "it just breeds a lot of unsafe things."
The hotel, built in 1966, had become a magnet for the area's homeless. Weeds and trash grew like kudzu. Its worst moment came in 2005, when a purposely set fire in its garage injured three firefighters.
"It has continued to be nothing but an eyesore," said Louise DeSpain, executive director of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-06-15/story/eyesore_hotel_in_downtown_jacksonville_heading_for_demolition
Y-E-E-A-A-A-A-A-A-! This cannot happen soon enough (how about this afternoon!?!?)
Quoteit does not end up as a retention pond or passive park site
I agree with this ultimately, but I'll take it in the short-term over the Beirut-esque structure that blights much of Jax's entry to the core anyday!
[/quote]
I agree with this ultimately, but I'll take it in the short-term over the Beirut-esque structure that blights much of Jax's entry to the core anyday!
[/quote]
lol @ Beirut-esque ..... I think that's the perfect way to describe how the place looks! .... Looks like it should be stuck in a war-zone and not next to a thoroughfare for a major metropolitan city. Glad to see it go!
Quoteit does not end up as a retention pond or passive park site
Of course it is. And not to open a big discussion, but if the nay-sayers are right, it is a badly contaminated site and so this property will sit and sit and sit..... in which case, we actually are better off with a existing building that could be rehabbed into something usefull rather than another empty lot. But this is Jacksonville afterall.....and least we forget, whose 1.5 mil is being used to do make the new parking lot?
Sadly, after it's demise, I see an ugly foundation sitting empty for decades.
Sadly, property rights still apply, even to owners without good intent. I'm hopeful these owners have been misjudged and will make every effort to get credit (yes, this part will take time) and do something positive with the site.
On an additional note re: contamination, this site is an EPA Superfund site. It is my understanding, tho, that it is non-active status as the COJ's requested to the feds. COJ claims the request to make it EPA non-active is due to the extra $2-3M and 3-5 yrs it would take with EPA involvement vs. without it -- time will tell.
I can't believe the day after I post a picture of this place to the photo thread we get a demolition notice.
I guess something in me knew...
well, we all already knew.
I work right around the corner from this site, and every time I drive by it I think that in the present traffic/roadway design I can't see how you could make anything with the current structure. I totally agree that something can and should be built on the property once it's leveled, but there's no way another hotel would work there.
If 118 Main can get a demolition sticker and be totally demolished in 3 weeks, what kind of time line are we looking at here? Not long right?
Thank God! I moved to Jacksonville in 1994 and remember seeing this piece of crap in my taxi ride from the airport to Mayport. I remember thinking to myself, "what have I gotten myself into"?
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on June 15, 2009, 09:01:40 AM
I can't believe the day after I post a picture of this place to the photo thread we get a demolition notice.
I guess something in me knew...
well, we all already knew.
I work right around the corner from this site, and every time I drive by it I think that in the present traffic/roadway design I can't see how you could make anything with the current structure. I totally agree that something can and should be built on the property once it's leveled, but there's no way another hotel would work there.
Didn't someone have a plan to rehab it? That plan wasn't a hotel though (and there is no reason why it would have to be a hotel anyway). I seem to remmebr it was residential, but the current market probably precludes doing that now.
It could be turned into something nice, I've seen the same done with other buildings in similiar condition. At this point htough, I just want the eyesore gone.
I wonder how they will handle the environmental issues. The DEP released their study last year, and said that the site could be reused, but had a laundry list of things it had to do to be used, including, if I am remembering right, filling in the basement with cement
THANK GOD!! :D
I remember as a kid this hotel had already gone to shi*t! I'm so glad they're gonna tear this crap down, i hope the lot is used for something interesting....not another stupid pocket park (lol).
i think they should just blow out the entire core and put in a culdesac
There was a mini golf there around the turn of the century I think... :)
well maybe if it is a cement lot there will be some skate opportunities there, just need a small embankment, a few rails and the city won't have to go and arrest the ones skating downtown anymore, problem solved
should have been rehabbed into a jail
Does the new Florida State College need a dormitory?
Quote from: Traveller on June 15, 2009, 12:35:13 PM
Does the new Florida State College need a dormitory?
That's actually a very decent idea!
This crapbox was already a total turd when I got to town 10 years ago. Except it was EVEN WORSE when it was actually open, if you can imagine that. All sorts of interesting characters hanging out around there, especially in and around that seedy bar they used to have on the first floor. It sure hasn't gotten any better with age, either.
This thing won't be missed. At least not by me, anyway.
QuoteThey all got scuppered, however.
What happened to them? Who killed the deals? The owner? The city?
:D I was gonna come this week but there is an event for Tom at Shanty at the same time. Will you be at Waffa and Mikes?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on June 15, 2009, 01:03:52 PM
This crapbox was already a total turd when I got to town 10 years ago. Except it was EVEN WORSE when it was actually open, if you can imagine that. All sorts of interesting characters hanging out around there, especially in and around that seedy bar they used to have on the first floor. It sure hasn't gotten any better with age, either.
This thing won't be missed. At least not by me, anyway.
I remember reading a story in the T-U around 1997 in which the then-owner or manager said the hotel and its restaurant/lounge had been substantially renovated and he was seeking to get an affiliation with a national chain, most likely Days Inn. Was the hotel actually in better shape at the time, or was the person quoted in the article overstating matters?
Finally Parkview Inn (Heart of Jacksonville) will be destroyed and rightfully so; no one wanted it, so it has to be killed; just an eyesore and a piece of decaying ugly hulk in downtown. Anyone know what might go there?
Heights Unknown
Mkay. I'm confused. When other buildings get the axe throughout downtown, everyone's in an uproar. Urban fabric preservation and the like.
But now all of a sudden, a building is being demolished like all the others and it's ok? Way to pic and choose! ???
What am I missing?
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 15, 2009, 04:32:49 PM
Mkay. I'm confused. When other buildings get the axe throughout downtown, everyone's in an uproar. Urban fabric preservation and the like.
But now all of a sudden, a building is being demolished like all the others and it's ok? Way to pic and choose! ???
What am I missing?
Well, I think something could have been done with the building. It will certainly be quite a bit cheaper to start over and build new with the environmental issues that came with this building, however.
That being said, I think most people for demolition would argue that this isn't exactly a historically contributing structure and has no real redeeming architectural qualities worth preserving it.
Thanks for straightening me out!
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 15, 2009, 05:00:38 PM
Thanks for straightening me out!
Upset? Sour grapes? Bitter Bananas? WOW!
Just kidding
Heights Unknown
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 15, 2009, 02:53:28 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on June 15, 2009, 01:03:52 PM
This crapbox was already a total turd when I got to town 10 years ago. Except it was EVEN WORSE when it was actually open, if you can imagine that. All sorts of interesting characters hanging out around there, especially in and around that seedy bar they used to have on the first floor. It sure hasn't gotten any better with age, either.
This thing won't be missed. At least not by me, anyway.
I remember reading a story in the T-U around 1997 in which the then-owner or manager said the hotel and its restaurant/lounge had been substantially renovated and he was seeking to get an affiliation with a national chain, most likely Days Inn. Was the hotel actually in better shape at the time, or was the person quoted in the article overstating matters?
They renovated it about 2 or 3 different times, and it was re-trashed within weeks following each refurbishment. Because of their location, I think the only clientele they were attracting was the pay-by-the-week crowd. Nobody in their right mind would ever check in there, seeing what was wandering around outside. I can't imagine the clientele inside was much better.
Renovations weren't the place's problem, its location was.
Quote from: Doctor_K on June 15, 2009, 04:32:49 PM
Mkay. I'm confused. When other buildings get the axe throughout downtown, everyone's in an uproar. Urban fabric preservation and the like.
But now all of a sudden, a building is being demolished like all the others and it's ok? Way to pic and choose! ???
What am I missing?
It's an ugly 1960's motel with 6' ceilings and no worthwhile architectural detail. What's worse, is it continues acting as a magnet for the homeless, drug addicts, etc., etc.
Honestly, what is there to be upset about?
While the Park View may not have any redeeming architectural value, it has been my experience that it is far less expensive to rehab a building sitting on a contaminated site than doing a remediation on a superfund site so you can then build a new building on that site. So we will have a parking lot for...well... decades more than likely. And this great new empty space in the downtown skyline will be courteously of our tax dollars. Of course, since we, the tax payers, are sort of tearing down the building, will that mean that we, the tax payers, will eventually have to pay for the remediation? That does somehow seem like something to be upset about.
Sort of makes me think of "watch what you wish for...."
If it is in fact contaminated then it should be cleaned up right? Why would you not want a contaminated sight cleaned up? Would you buy a condo in the refurbished building on a known contaminated sight? Perhaps the discovery of the contamination was the very thing that kept this building from being refurbished. Seems logical to me... but I don't know all the facts either. Stephen seems to know but apparently the story is too long to tell us all.
BT the story is on this site. Stephen and Downtown Parks had a long public arguement about it on this forum. I have no inside info and am not publicly taking sides.
Ahhh thats right... will look!
I got a look at this building the other day when i went to the confederate dog park (which is a really great thing the city did) and it was in rough shape. Hard to see a good rehab there, but I am no architect.
The structure is re-habitable if stripped down to its concrete skeleton. However, it being a feasible project at this point is most likely in doubt, given our economic conditions. Does anyone have any idea of what will happen when it comes down? Is there a plan out there?
So let's put money aside for a minute and focus on the future. What potential does this site have other than a concrete slab surrounded by rusting fence. Isn't this kind of the gateway to Springfield from Downtown? Could this lot play an important part in refurbishing Confederate Park? That Klutho building next to the park could become part of a new mixed use area....what would make a good entrance to Springfield? Housing, enlarge the park, restaurants and shops, a museum? Does FSCJ need a place for expansion? Perhaps a tall dorm with retail and other small shops? Will there ever be a time in Jacksonville when the fence around the park can come down?
I pretty much spend a lot of time dreaming because it helps me not be so discouraged with the state of things in this city.
On a related note. Who can tell me about the yellow brick building on the left of Main Street as you head north into Springfield? It is right before where JEA took a crap and fenced it in. >:(
Progress!! Very happy they are finally tearing that thing down. Now is the chance to build more downtown apartments with venues at the bottom floor.
New High Rise? ;D
QuoteBecause of their location, I think the only clientele they were attracting was the pay-by-the-week crowd. Nobody in their right mind would ever check in there, seeing what was wandering around outside. I can't imagine the clientele inside was much better.
Renovations weren't the place's problem, its location was.
No place has a certain crowd or business model because of its location (your implication you think Springfield is a bad location is very clear).
It is because of ownership and the use that the ownership has chosen (even if it is rented to another entity to operate) -- pay by the week cannot happen if the ownership does not allow it. This is a classic case of a property owner having no idea of possible highest and best use, and taking whatever requires the least investment from their pocket -- a common problem with many of Jacksonville's fine, fine landowners in Springfield and Downtown.
QuoteWhat potential does this site have other than a concrete slab surrounded by rusting fence. Isn't this kind of the gateway to Springfield from Downtown? Could this lot play an important part in refurbishing Confederate Park? That Klutho building next to the park could become part of a new mixed use area....what would make a good entrance to Springfield? Housing, enlarge the park, restaurants and shops, a museum? Does FSCJ need a place for expansion? Perhaps a tall dorm with retail and other small shops? Will there ever be a time in Jacksonville when the fence around the park can come down?
As mentioned in a different thread, the Hogan's Creek/Emerald Necklace park system from Liberty St up to 8th is being masterplanned by HDR and Project for Public Spaces between now and December. The scope of the effort includes, among other things, analyzing all contamination issues and surrounding uses/opportunities. I presume the Park View Inn site, having contamination and proximity of use would be considered in this planning effort.
I'd like to see them look at the site as part of a grouping, with the Claude Nolan/EHT multi-story, historic building (which should be rehabbed), the Warren Motors auto sales business, and the crumbling (thanks to settling) single-story red brick building that houses a hatchery equipment manufacturer (which is also owned by Warren Properties). Of the two buildings with businesses in them, neither are currently the highest and best use, and I expect the hatchery might find good use of a location at the north end of the warehouse district.
This would allow the planning team, the City, and hopefully a good developer (that the public may have to help the City identify) to look at the best use for these parcels that abut the park system and Downtown's main e/w thoroughfare, and maybe even to fix the fubar that is the north end of Ocean and Main Sts.
Even if this takes time to investigate, plan, develop solutions and find funding, and I am not a proponent of empty lots, I still prefer this option to that rotten, useless, unsalvageable, vagrant-attracting eyesore that is currently there.
I hope the City lets us know exactly when they will demolish so we can have a party while we watch one of Downtown and Springfield's greatest blights come down!
Quote from: zoo on June 16, 2009, 07:43:19 AM
QuoteBecause of their location, I think the only clientele they were attracting was the pay-by-the-week crowd. Nobody in their right mind would ever check in there, seeing what was wandering around outside. I can't imagine the clientele inside was much better.
Renovations weren't the place's problem, its location was.
No place has a certain crowd or business model because of its location (your implication you think Springfield is a bad location is very clear).
It is because of ownership and the use that the ownership has chosen (even if it is rented to another entity to operate) -- pay by the week cannot happen if the ownership does not allow it. This is a classic case of a property owner having no idea of possible highest and best use, and taking whatever requires the least investment from their pocket -- a common problem with many of Jacksonville's fine, fine landowners in Springfield and Downtown.
I'm not bashing Springfield, I'm just saying that in that hotel's location, the only clientele it attracted was of the not-so-nice variety. Springfield has come a long way, I'm not trying to knock it, but honestly...if you drove into town with your kids in the car, would you want to stay the night in a place surrounded by homeless and hookers?
And back when this place was still open, that's when I had a crapload of rental properties in Springfield. I know what it's like, because I was in S'field every day, and drove by Park View every day. I'm not just running my mouth off. There is no way that place could have been viable in its location, as anything other than a seedy motel. Which will only hold the area back. Which is one of the reasons I think it getting demolished is a good step for the area.
On a related note. Who can tell me about the yellow brick building on the left of Main Street as you head north into Springfield? It is right before where JEA took a crap and fenced it in. >:(
[/quote]
I know it was known as the City Engineers' Building and it is featured in Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, right at the end of the downtown chapter. Architect is unknown. If you don't have the book I'd be glad to look up the full writeup on it later.
QuoteI'm just saying that in that hotel's location, the only clientele it attracted was of the not-so-nice variety
Again, location does not make a use, but use can make or break a location. If a property owner invests in smart use, and protects his right to offer that use through security or working with surrounding community to "clear" the location, then the use prevails.
You may have owned property in Springfield, and you may have had a crummy environment. But I'd bet, like many of the other fine, fine property owners, you put as little as possible into your properties, and adjusted your use to the surrounding environment b/c making a quick buck was easier that way. Some would call this approach "penny-wise and pound-foolish," and it has been a prevalent affliction in Springfield and Downtown.
Location does not make a use, use makes (or breaks) a location. Thanks for helping to prove my point.
At least we can agree the wreck coming down is a good thing for both its surrounding submarkets.
Quote from: zoo on June 16, 2009, 08:48:27 AM
QuoteI'm just saying that in that hotel's location, the only clientele it attracted was of the not-so-nice variety
Again, location does not make a use, but use can make or break a location. If a property owner invests in smart use, and protects his right to offer that use through security or working with surrounding community to "clear" the location, then the use prevails.
You may have owned property in Springfield, and you may have had a crummy environment. But I'd bet, like many of the other fine, fine property owners, you put as little as possible into your properties, and adjusted your use to the surrounding environment b/c making a quick buck was easier that way. Some would call this approach "penny-wise and pound-foolish," and it has been a prevalent affliction in Springfield and Downtown.
Location does not make a use, use makes (or breaks) a location. Thanks for helping to prove my point.
At least we can agree the wreck coming down is a good thing for both its surrounding submarkets.
No I tried to make my properties nice. Go check out 1719 Perry or 41 E. 16th, both were renovations I did. Tell me you think they look like the rest of the typical S'field termite-traps. Most of the places I had are still the nicest things on their respective streets, even 6 years later. And let me tell you, it was a total waste, and I about went bust doing business that way. I'd no sooner finish fixing the place up than it would be completely trashed 3 months later. After awhile, I threw in the towel and went back to school. There are far easier ways to make a lot more money.
And I'm not getting your thought process. Do you really think that location can't make or break a business? We're talking about a building whose design limits it to only one possible use, and whose location prohibits that use from ever being successful. You really think Park View, given its location and the state of the area in the early 2000's, could have been viable? Again, who is going to check into a motel surrounded by hookers and hobos?
It getting demolished is a good thing for the area...
QuoteZoo:
No place has a certain crowd or business model because of its location (your implication you think Springfield is a bad location is very clear).
It is because of ownership and the use that the ownership has chosen (even if it is rented to another entity to operate) -- pay by the week cannot happen if the ownership does not allow it. This is a classic case of a property owner having no idea of possible highest and best use, and taking whatever requires the least investment from their pocket -- a common problem with many of Jacksonville's fine, fine landowners in Springfield and Downtown.
and:
Location does not make a use, use makes (or breaks) a location. Thanks for helping to prove my point
.
On the surface, these quotes sort of makes sense. But the reality is something different. In reality, they make no sense what so ever. As we are talking about the Park View, let's use that site as the example.
Once upon a time, the Park View (under a different name?) was one of THE places to stay. What changed that? Was it really the management deciding to rent to a lower income bracket by the week as you, Zoo, are implying? Or was it economic pressures from things like the flight of the middle and upper middle classes from the downtown area? Was it the death of retail in the Downtown area? Once the business potential declined, then management had to make a choice. Stay "up scale" or try to pay the bills.
You, Zoo, have tried to make it sound as if the Park View's and even Springfield's decline was at least partially the fault of the "slumlords" when in fact, it was the economic pressures that the management of the Park View Inn found themselves in and they had to make that choice to try to just survive as a business or go under.
The businesses that find themselves in a declining or depressed area have no choice other than catering too the market available to them. The Park View Inn and the so called “Slum Lords†had no choice. In the case of the single family homes, that choice actually saved many of the houses. Unfortunately, the once “place to stay†Park View Inn wasn’t so lucky.
^ Strider, I can't really argue with your thoughts, because the market does control. This does however work in reverse, so I expect slum lords, halfway houses, and other businesses that offer services to a declining clientele to understand it's the shifting market, and not individuals that are pushing for change.
QuoteWe're talking about a building whose design limits it to only one possible use, and whose location prohibits that use from ever being successful.
Quoteit was the economic pressures that the management of the Park View Inn found themselves in and they had to make that choice to try to just survive as a business or go under.
The businesses that find themselves in a declining or depressed area have no choice other than catering too the market available to them.
I totally disagree with these comments and find the underlying theory -- "I am a victim and have no control over this situation, so I'm justified in making a decision that requires little investment in time, energy, money on my part" -- is a load of crap. Markets do not shift or change overnight. It takes time. An astute business owner watches for signs of shifting and makes one of 3 choices:
1. Try to prevent the shift from continuing through smart, offensive -- and sometimes costly and requiring support of other individuals/entities invested in the marketplace -- business decisions.
2. Do nothing, stick their head in the sand, and hope the start of the shift just goes away.
3. Adapt to the shift, thus attracting more individuals/businesses in line with the shift, and expediting its progress.
If the Park View Inn owners, and other Downtown interests of the time, had recognized a shift, and developed and implemented a strategy to prevent it, they may have succeeded. Doing nothing (option 2) will likely result in failure. I think some of Springfield's recent/current businesses may be perfect case studies for this.
The 3rd option is ultimately what the Downtown businesses and Park View Inn owners of the time chose. If the shift is in a positive direction, this works out fine, but if, as in this case, the shift is in a negative direction, the owners cannot make such a choice
then sit back and attempt to blame environmental factors they helped to create for their own demise.This is indicative of what is wrong with U.S. culture on a grander scale today. Individuals, businesses, govts making their beds, then blaming others/environment for having to lie in them.
The particular shift in the 60s went in a negative direction for the Downtown and Springfield submarkets. Now the shift in these markets is going the other direction and the same 3 choices, and related outcomes, still apply.
Quote from: jason_contentdg on June 16, 2009, 09:27:03 AM
^ Strider, I can't really argue with your thoughts, because the market does control. This does however work in reverse, so I expect slum lords, halfway houses, and other businesses that offer services to a declining clientele to understand it's the shifting market, and not individuals that are pushing for change.
Sounds like you're actually agreeing with what he says, but looking forward to the day when it starts working in reverse. As the neighborhood comes up, that will happen. But that's also exactly what happened when it went downhill in the first place. Strider is right on target with his analysis.
QuoteStrider is right on target with his analysis
(iyho)
QuoteQuote
We're talking about a building whose design limits it to only one possible use, and whose location prohibits that use from ever being successful.
Quote
it was the economic pressures that the management of the Park View Inn found themselves in and they had to make that choice to try to just survive as a business or go under.
The businesses that find themselves in a declining or depressed area have no choice other than catering too the market available to them.
I totally disagree with these comments and find the underlying theory -- "I am a victim and have no control over this situation, so I'm justified in making a decision that requires little investment in time, energy, money on my part" -- is a load of crap. Markets do not shift or change overnight. It takes time. An astute business owner watches for signs of shifting and makes one of 3 choices:
1. Try to prevent the shift from continuing through smart, offensive -- and sometimes costly and requiring support of other individuals/entities invested in the marketplace -- business decisions.
2. Do nothing, stick their head in the sand, and hope the start of the shift just goes away.
3. Adapt to the shift, thus attracting more individuals/businesses in line with the shift, and expediting its progress.
If the Park View Inn owners, and other Downtown interests of the time, had recognized a shift, and developed and implemented a strategy to prevent it, they may have succeeded. Doing nothing (option 2) will likely result in failure. I think some of Springfield's recent/current businesses may be perfect case studies for this.
The 3rd option is ultimately what the Downtown businesses and Park View Inn owners of the time chose. If the shift is in a positive direction, this works out fine, but if, as in this case, the shift is in a negative direction, the owners cannot make such a choice then sit back and attempt to blame environmental factors they helped to create for their own demise.
This is indicative of what is wrong with U.S. culture on a grander scale today. Individuals, businesses, govts making their beds, then blaming others/environment for having to lie in them.
The particular shift in the 60s went in a negative direction for the Downtown and Springfield submarkets. Now the shift in these markets is going the other direction and the same 3 choices, and related outcomes, still apply.
Quote from: zoo on June 16, 2009, 09:44:31 AM
QuoteWe're talking about a building whose design limits it to only one possible use, and whose location prohibits that use from ever being successful.
Quoteit was the economic pressures that the management of the Park View Inn found themselves in and they had to make that choice to try to just survive as a business or go under.
The businesses that find themselves in a declining or depressed area have no choice other than catering too the market available to them.
I totally disagree with these comments and find the underlying theory -- "I am a victim and have no control over this situation, so I'm justified in making a decision that requires little investment in time, energy, money on my part" -- is a load of crap. Markets do not shift or change overnight. It takes time. An astute business owner watches for signs of shifting and makes one of 3 choices:
1. Try to prevent the shift from continuing through smart, offensive -- and sometimes costly and requiring support of other individuals/entities invested in the marketplace -- business decisions.
2. Do nothing, stick their head in the sand, and hope the start of the shift just goes away.
3. Adapt to the shift, thus attracting more individuals/businesses in line with the shift, and expediting its progress.
If the Park View Inn owners, and other Downtown interests of the time, had recognized a shift, and developed and implemented a strategy to prevent it, they may have succeeded. Doing nothing will result in failure (I think some of Springfield's recent/current businesses may be perfect case studies for this). The 3rd option is ultimately what the Downtown businesses and Park View Inn owners of the time ultimately chose. If the shift is in a positive direction, this works out fine, but if, as in this case, the shift is in a negative direction, the owners cannot make such a choice then sit back and attempt to blame environmental factors they helped to create for their own demise.
This is indicative of what is wrong with U.S. culture on a grander scale today. Individuals, businesses, govts making their beds, then blaming others for having to lie in them.
The particular shift in the 60s went in a negative direction for the Downtown and Springfield submarkets. Now the shift in these markets is going the other direction and the same 3 choices, and related outcomes, still apply.
Your comments are off-base. What can a motel do to change its own circumstances? Nothing.
It can't just pick up and move! Look at all the motels along US-1 that closed down when I-95 was built. Their market changed due to circumstances outside their control, and their traditional business dried up as a result. Same thing happened to Park View. What exactly would you have them do? No amount of advertising or "creativity" by some motel in Jacksonville is going to stop a white-flight problem that plagued the entire country, just the same as no amount of advertising or "creativity" on the part of a US-1 motel was going to make people avoid I-95.
In other words...
Quote"I am a victim and have no control over this situation, so I'm justified in making a decision that requires little investment in time, energy, money on my part"
^ Sometimes no matter the money, energy, or time you put into something, you still can't change things. So you think Route 66 would still be booming today had they spent more money/time/effort?
That would have been tough as Ike was obviously a very strong leader -- he got Congress and the American people to support the largest infrastructure investment in this country EVER.
However, suppose the towns along 66 had pooled resources and voice (and hired a lobbyist) to make the argument that it would have been a better approach to put the E/W trans-continental hwy where grading, and some economic development, was already done -- along the existing Route 66? They may have succeeded. Of course, education of the communities along 66 would also have been required b/c I'm sure some would have jumped up and down screaming they didn't want a major highway, but wanted their quaint route to remain the same.
Although I'm not a political history buff, and don't have the details on how the Eisenhower administration determined routes and what hurdles they did/did not have to clear to finalize such decisions, I suspect this may be a perfect example of the process I've already outlined. Towns along 66 could have:
Quote1. Try to prevent the shift from continuing through smart, offensive -- and sometimes costly and requiring support of other individuals/entities invested in the marketplace -- business decisions.
2. Do nothing, stick their head in the sand, and hope the start of the shift just goes away.
3. Adapt to the shift, thus attracting more individuals/businesses in line with the shift, and expediting its progress.
Which route (no pun intended) did the towns along 66 choose? jasoncontentdg seems to think they chose options 1 or 3, and failed. But maybe they chose 2? If it was 1 or 3 and they failed, then you have proven me wrong on perhaps the largest scale possible (although one could argue that the choice, and subsequent premature abandonment, of option 1 due to exhaustion of resources also proves my theory). But if it was option 2, my theory holds.
In any event, I say, YEAH, THE PARK VIEW IS COMING DOWN!
Keep in mind, my only research on Route 66 was Pixar's Cars, and I just know the talking cars seemed helpless and sad in the flashback. :)
I was in Maine just last week, and Route 1 is alive and kicking up there. Tons of beautiful little town centers, 60s and 70s era hotels still have plenty of cars parked in front of them during tourism season.
Quote from: zoo on June 16, 2009, 10:37:03 AM
That would have been tough as Ike was obviously a very strong leader -- he got Congress and the American people to support the largest infrastructure investment in this country EVER.
However, suppose the towns along 66 had pooled resources and voice (and hired a lobbyist) to make the argument that it would have been a better approach to put the E/W trans-continental hwy where grading, and some economic development, was already done -- along the existing Route 66? They may have succeeded. Of course, education of the communities along 66 would also have been required b/c I'm sure some would have jumped up and down screaming they didn't want a major highway, but wanted their quaint route to remain the same.
Although I'm not a political history buff, and don't have the details on how the Eisenhower administration determined routes and what hurdles they did/did not have to clear to finalize such decisions, I suspect this may be a perfect example of the process I've already outlined. Towns along 66 could have:
Quote1. Try to prevent the shift from continuing through smart, offensive -- and sometimes costly and requiring support of other individuals/entities invested in the marketplace -- business decisions.
2. Do nothing, stick their head in the sand, and hope the start of the shift just goes away.
3. Adapt to the shift, thus attracting more individuals/businesses in line with the shift, and expediting its progress.
Which route (no pun intended) did the towns along 66 choose? jasoncontentdg seems to think they chose options 1 or 3, and failed. But maybe they chose 2? If it was 1 or 3 and they failed, then you have proven me wrong on perhaps the largest scale possible (although one could argue that the choice, and subsequent premature abandonment, of option 1 due to exhaustion of resources also proves my theory). But if it was option 2, my theory holds.
In any event, I say, YEAH, THE PARK VIEW IS COMING DOWN!
I think your position amounts to trying to fight the rain, or prevent the tide from rising and falling.
Business adapts to society, not the other way around.
It makes me sad to see our downtown fabric lose buildings, but this one particular building; I will shed no tear for.
zoo: Thanks for the Intro to Business 101 class notes. How about giving us some notes from practical business 2009 . . . ones that actually pertain to this building, its history and location.
UF, if that were true, neighborhoods like Springfield would never be able to recover. Are you ok with losing all of that history?
Quote from: downtownparks on June 16, 2009, 10:53:26 AM
UF, if that were true, neighborhoods like Springfield would never be able to recover. Are you ok with losing all of that history?
This has got nothing to do with the neighborhood. Springfield can (and eventually will) recover just fine. But a re-gentrification process that won't be complete until 2020 or whatever sure isn't going to help a motel stay in business in 1990, is it?
The place has to deal with the market it has, not what it wants it to be, or what it will be in 30 years.
QuoteBusiness adapts to society, not the other way around.
Adapting to
society and what it wants is true.
This is not what you claim in your earlier posts -- you claim businesses have to exist, and come in line with,
the markets as they exist. This is what I disagree with, and what I believe can be changed. And apparently I'm not alone in believing businesses can change a market or Bill Cesery, Mack Bissette and Jack Meeks wouldn't be spending what they are spending in Springfield.
Come to think of it, I'm glad businesses like Apple, GE, Dyson, and Volkswagen don't operate under your premise that they should just
be as the existing market conditions
are. I won't ever agree with you that creativity and innovation can't affect change, because all of the evidence suggests otherwise. Companies can create a market for themselves that doesn't exist, but it does take smart strategy, and an investment of time and money.
Jaxnative, I presume your comment re: business 101 is to bring this thread back to topic, so here goes...
I don't have access to detailed info on the market at the time so I won't take a stab at what the Park View Inn's highest and best use might have been between the 70s and today. But I feel pretty confident in saying it shouldn't have remained a motel/hotel. I'm glad it hasn't (remained a motel/hotel -- at least not officially), and I'm looking forward to its demolition.
Quote from: zoo on June 16, 2009, 11:51:30 AM
QuoteBusiness adapts to society, not the other way around.
Adapting to society and what it wants is true.
This is not what you claim in your earlier posts -- you claim businesses have to exist, and come in line with, the markets as they exist. This is what I disagree with, and what I believe can be changed. And apparently I'm not alone in believing businesses can change a market or Bill Cesery, Mack Bissette and Jack Meeks wouldn't be spending what they are spending in Springfield.
Come to think of it, I'm glad businesses like Apple, GE, Dyson, and Volkswagen don't operate under your premise that they should just be as the existing market conditions are. I won't ever agree with you that creativity and innovation can't affect change, because all of the evidence suggests otherwise. Companies can create a market for themselves that doesn't exist, but it does take smart strategy, and an investment of time and money.
Jaxnative, I presume your comment re: business 101 is to bring this thread back to topic, so here goes...
I don't have access to detailed info on the market at the time so I won't take a stab at what the Park View Inn's highest and best use might have been between the 70s and today. But I feel pretty confident in saying it shouldn't have remained a motel/hotel. I'm glad it hasn't (remained a motel/hotel -- at least not officially), and I'm looking forward to its demolition.
I see you're trying to re-frame my point so it sounds like I'm contradicting myself. LOL
Problem is, even if we take the words that you're trying to put in my mouth, rather than what I actually said, then I'm
still clearly not contradicting myself. Business adapts to the social conditions around it. Period. That's what I've said all along.
In Park View's case, that meant accepting bums and drug addicts as guests, in order to pay the light bill. The "ideal" or "dream" guest vanished along with the white flight across the bridges. They either accepted what was still available to them in that location, or they would have had no guests at all. You're trying to create some mystical third option where there really wasn't one.
QuoteZoo: But I feel pretty confident in saying it shouldn't have remained a motel/hotel.
And this means that you can always be right. If a business isn't sucessful in a particular market, then it should just close rather than adapt to the new market it finds itself in. In the case of the Park View Inn, which was built as a hotel/ motel, then what should it have morphed itself into? There seems to be a lacking of common sense in your statement.
Sorry, Zoo, you lose this one. Society determines the market. It may or may not have help from or may or may not be effected by good marketing. The market determines whether a particular business model will or will not succeed. Overly simple, but the basis.
QuoteProblem is, even if we take the words that you're trying to put in my mouth, rather than what I actually said, then I'm still clearly not contradicting myself. Business adapts to the social conditions around it. Period. That's what I've said all along.
In Park View's case, that meant accepting bums and drug addicts as guests, in order to pay the light bill. The "ideal" or "dream" guest vanished along with the white flight across the bridges. They either accepted what was still available to them in that location, or they would have had no guests at all. You're trying to create some mystical third option where there really wasn't one.
ChriswUfGator Wins this one! I wouild think that it is the desire of any business that finds itself in a declining market that they can adapt and survive so that they may some day regain the business they once had. And this does not mean automatically closing it's doors because they (or you) do not like the clients availible to them. Will 3rd and Main turn it's back on low income residents if they somehow are not successful with the Proton Patient idea? I doubt it as there is money to be made from them (Section 8) and too many bills for Cesery to pay to just shut the place down as you seem to suggest should be done.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 16, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
On a related note. Who can tell me about the yellow brick building on the left of Main Street as you head north into Springfield? It is right before where JEA took a crap and fenced it in. >:(
I know it was known as the City Engineers' Building and it is featured in Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, right at the end of the downtown chapter. Architect is unknown. If you don't have the book I'd be glad to look up the full writeup on it later.
[/quote]
Thanks Wacca, more info would be great. I think it is a beautiful building that seems to get lost in it's ugly surroundings. An under-appreciated gem that I hope is being fully used and maintained.
It looks like it's in good condition, at least. I took pictures of it in December. I'll look up the JAH listing for it this evening.
QuoteThe market determines whether a particular business model will or will not succeed. Overly simple, but the basis.
This presumes every business owner is diligent enough to continuously observe the market, perceptive enough to accurately assess it, and strategic enough to implement adaptation.
Strider, you haven't changed your business model, and it seems Three Layers' success proves you should, according to your premise. They opened a well-designed, thoughtfully-missioned and smartly-operated coffee/cake house that shouldn't have opened in a market full of bums, hookers, drug dealers, etc, right? Yet they have been successful (they have also adapted with lunch menu, and now the Cellar and event space). If they have been successful, does that mean they are assessing the Springfield market correctly and you are not? If 3rd & Main gets market rate for its units, does that mean they have correctly assessed the market and you haven't?
Creativity and innovation can change a market, and even create one where there was none. There just isn't enough of it.
...and I hope whatever new goes on the Park View Inn site comes out of thorough submarket assessment, smart planning and creative thinking (even if it takes awhile) :-\.
Whose tail did monkeys fly out of? ::)
Now I would argue that 3 Layers is successful because it does allow all sorts of people in. I've seen many bums hanging around, and all are welcome. ;D All you need is a buck an a half.
If this building was on the North or West side...would any of you really care? ??? :-\
There use to the a high rise at I-95 and 20th St. expressway. It was a high-rise verson of the Parkview Inn, and it TRULY reminded me of Beirut. It finally was torn down, thankfully.
Because it was so noticeable and left a black mark on the entire city, I did care about that one.
I see your point though. Out of sight, out of mind does apply to the situation.
QuoteThis presumes every business owner is diligent enough to continuously observe the market, perceptive enough to accurately assess it, and strategic enough to implement adaptation.
Strider, you haven't changed your business model, and it seems Three Layers' success proves you should, according to your premise. They opened a well-designed, thoughtfully-missioned and smartly-operated coffee/cake house that shouldn't have opened in a market full of bums, hookers, drug dealers, etc, right? Yet they have been successful (they have also adapted with lunch menu, and now the Cellar and event space). If they have been successful, does that mean they are assessing the Springfield market correctly and you are not? If 3rd & Main gets market rate for its units, does that mean they have correctly assessed the market and you haven't?
Creativity and innovation can change a market, and even create one where there was none. There just isn't enough of it.
Along with Stephen I have to agree...up to a point. As far as Springfield goes, it is a very mixed market and unless you actually think everyone in Springfield is a .."bums, hookers, drug dealers" ... to use your words, then of course there is room for places like three layers as well as the the BP up the street. If they had opened five years earlier, they may not have lasted this long. If they are truly successful, and I hope they are, then they will be around a long time. Three layers even lets the likes of you and me in so they are also all inclusive. They are lucky to have that mixed market that exists today as they would not have survived in the Springfield of the nineties. And many of the changes they have made is realizing that dollars do not matter as much as pennys do in todays market.
The problem with this discussion is that we are all right..to some extent. Creativity and innovation can certainly create a new market but...and there is always a but ... the market actually has to exist in some fashion first and the creativity is more tapping into it than creating it. The market is also fickle and can go away on you or change on you as fast as it came to you.
By the way, with my business model, the adapting sometimes is just introducing the guys to Three Layers...some have become regulars. Which basically means that the more sucessful places like Three Layers and 3rd and Main are, the better it is for my business model. Good business is adapting all the time. Standing still is a good way to lose sight of what is needed in the current economic enviroment...that society making the market - the marketing determining the sucessful business model thing again. Creativity and innovation certainly helps with that, but doesn't change the facts of it.
Quote from: brainstormer on June 16, 2009, 03:53:54 PM
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 16, 2009, 08:36:30 AM
On a related note. Who can tell me about the yellow brick building on the left of Main Street as you head north into Springfield? It is right before where JEA took a crap and fenced it in. >:(
I know it was known as the City Engineers' Building and it is featured in Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, right at the end of the downtown chapter. Architect is unknown. If you don't have the book I'd be glad to look up the full writeup on it later.
Thanks Wacca, more info would be great. I think it is a beautiful building that seems to get lost in it's ugly surroundings. An under-appreciated gem that I hope is being fully used and maintained.
[/quote]
OK, here is the full entry from JAH...
CITY ENGINEER'S BUILDING
904 NORTH MAIN STREET
DATE: 1911-1912
ARCHITECT: UNKNOWN
BUILDER: W.P. RICHARDSON & CO.
The processions of architecture and engineering became regulated in Florida in 1915 and 1918 respectively, but these enactments did little to end the rivalry between the two disciplines. There has always been an acknowledged overlap between architecture and some of the engineering specialties in the design work on buildings, and this lingering feud may hold the key to the enigma of who designed the City Engineer's Building. The well developed Prairie-style facade shows the talents of a highly accomplished designer, and yet extensive research has revealed no architect's name mentioned during the construction of this building. The city's engineering department employed draftsmen, including Hubert L. Cornelison, whose preliminary drawings for the building were recently discovered. These plans show a building only two stories in height and with a more conventional facade.
In October 1911, the Board of Bond Trustees selected the firm of W.P. Richardson & Company, which advertised itself as "Engineers and general contractors...designers and superintendents," to construct the building using Richardson's own design for the reinforced-concrete frame. The three-man special committee of the board in charge of the plans of the building included Frank M. Richardson, whose relationship, if any, to W.P. Richardson is unknown. Frank Richardson was a contractor and competitor of W.P. Richardson, and he had just completed building two of Klutho's finest Prairie-style buildings--the Seminole Hotel and Morocco Temple--and was underway with the construction of Klutho's Florida Life Building at that time. His collaboration in designing the Prairie-style facade of the Engineering Building is a distinct possibility.
In November of 1911, the committee approved changing the building to three stories, and apparently the present configuration of the building was then finalized. Another intriguing bit of evidence is an unsigned, undated rendering of the building's southern facade, which shows the three-story building as seven bays long--nearly one-third longer than actual construction. Unlike the initial plans drawn by Cornelison, this drawing shows a very different style of lettering, similar to that used by architects of the day. One other possibility of the origin for the design stems from the building's similarity in proportion and rhythm to the Black Masonic Temple, also started in 1911. It was designed by Mark & Sheftall, two young architects who had just opened their own firm after three years' apprenticeship in Klutho's office. It is possible that they collaborated on the final facade design as one of their earliest commissions, yet without receiving credit for designing the entire building.
At any rate, the rivalry between architectural and engineering professions may have caused the engineers for whom the building was constructed to avoid the services of an architect altogether, or at least give no credit to any architects responsible for the design. Whether the present building was designed by Cornelison, W.P. Richardson, Frank Richardson, Mark & Sheftall, or another unnamed architect, the designer will probably remain unknown. The City Engineer's Building was renovated in 1983 by Florida Junior College, and is one of the most handsome vintage buildings left on Main Street.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 16, 2009, 06:38:50 PM
There use to the a high rise at I-95 and 20th St. expressway. It was a high-rise verson of the Parkview Inn, and it TRULY reminded me of Beirut. It finally was torn down, thankfully.
Because it was so noticeable and left a black mark on the entire city, I did care about that one.
I see your point though. Out of sight, out of mind does apply to the situation.
Was that the same one at Golfair & 95-N? i remember that hotel, my sister had her sweet 16 there. Like the parkview that hotel was a vital part of the community (also established in the 60's), but as the building started to decline...and the decision to demolish was made.. no one made a big fuss about it. How is the parkview inn any different? Does anybody remember when parkview served as subsidised housing? It was the final attempt at revitalization...and even that failed. There are so many other great things that the property could be used for, hopefully whatever is done will help beautify downtown Jacksonville..why not let it happen?
^That was the old Holiday Inn. I believe there was another one at Emerson and I-95 that was torn down as well.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2009, 10:33:58 PM
^That was the old Holiday Inn. I believe there was another one at Emerson and I-95 that was torn down as well.
Yup, I remember that one in the University/Emerson/I-95 area.
It was a Holiday Inn when I first got here, then it became a Ramada run by a family from India who I think did zero maintenance the whole time they owned it. It rapidly ran downhill until it got so bad that their franchise was yanked, at which point it became an absolute dump of a rent-by-the-week flop-house.
The City finally shut it down, at which point it became even more of a magnet for addicts, hobos, and hookers. I suspect COJ was responsible for the demolition, which only happened a year or two ago and couldn't have come soon enough. The University / Emerson / 95 area isn't a ghetto, but that roach-motel was quickly dragging the whole area down. It doesn't matter where it's located, having one of those things around causes problems for the entire neighborhood.
Same thing with that beirut-esque highrise on the Northside. They become magnets for a lot of unsavory stuff that does the entire area a disservice.
Park View Inn and Springfield, what a combination.
Maybe this is the second coming of Springfield, Halleluah!
mttraininjax, the thread is about the Park View Inn coming down because it doesn't fit in with the changing Downtown and Springfield environments.
On an unrelated note, I read all of your responses from last night, and wonder if you had a bad day? Another example of something that doesn't fit is Walt Disney's quote with your mood. Hope today is a better one for you! ;D
I was trying to read through this thread some and catch up (I've been out of town) on when the inn is coming down, and I saw this:
QuoteWill 3rd and Main turn it's back on low income residents if they somehow are not successful with the Proton Patient idea?
That's one of the dumbest things I've heard on this forum. To imply that a new luxury development built in a gentrifying neighborhood could become low income housing is asinine. Springfield will continue to thrive and grow. We've passed the tipping point. Look around, even in this downturn people are rehabbing the historical properties, new construction is going up, and the new businesses to the neighborhood are expanding. To even posit that question shows either a lack of vision or a pessimistic attitude.
And to address the comment about would we care if these properties were not within our borders. Yes. I like to see all areas of a city improve by tearing down vacant buildings, bringing in new business and jobs, improve the sidewalks, lighting, etc. I drive along Philips often and I'm glad to see the commercial strip closer to downtown start to improve.
Anyone with any news on when this place is coming down? ???
Not soon enough...
Well lets see... it is now June 12, 2010 and the lovely Parkview is still gracing us with its presence.
"gracing" isn't quite the word I'd use, Tim... That structure truly is frightening.
If they will park a wrecking ball there, I will make it a pile of rubble , absolutely free.
Quote from: Timkin on June 13, 2010, 01:59:00 PM
If they will park a wrecking ball there, I will make it a pile of rubble , absolutely free.
/quote]
I will gladly assist with that task. Time and date please.
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on June 13, 2010, 10:56:48 AM
"gracing" isn't quite the word I'd use, Tim... That structure truly is frightening.
Haunting us with its presence is probably the better phrase. I can't wait to see it go.
Unfortunately, in another thread, I thought I read that there actually is a plan in place to take down the hotel itself ,but leave the parking garage and lobby for some sort of redevelopment. I have never been in the driveway of the place ,let alone inside. I suppose because it is mostly of Concrete and Steel Construction, something positive could be done with it. It seems to be "gutted" as though it is awaiting demolition.... which makes it a really dangerous building.. if someone were to fall off of any of the upper levels , there would not be good consequences. For reasons of safety , if no other good reason, I think its time for Parkview to go....and that includes the parking garage, swimming pool and everything but the trees if they can be spared.
Quote from: DavidWilliams on June 13, 2010, 06:38:53 PM
Quote from: Cliffs_Daughter on June 13, 2010, 10:56:48 AM
"gracing" isn't quite the word I'd use, Tim... That structure truly is frightening.
Haunting us with its presence is probably the better phrase. I can't wait to see it go.
Ok :) Its June 13th 2010, and the Lovely , but slightly declining Parkview Inn is Gra ...errrr Haunting us with its presence.
This tune has been sung before. When the wrecking ball swings I'll believe it. This hell hole probably has supernatural powers. Who knows some type of portal from the pits of hell with demons coming to and fro. Creepy place!!!
I would think there would be extreme liability for the owners if someone was poking around on site and got injured. I had a residential house fire back in 1992 and the fire department, local police and my insurance company were quite emphatic that the place had to be secured as I held liability for any trespassers who might visit the property while I wasn't on site. I had to literally purchase about 10 sheets of 4 x 8 plywood and board as much up as I could, until reconstruction began.
Parkview looks creepy. I agree.
Parkview needs a bulldozer.
Only in Jacksonville would the likes of the George Washington, Mayflower and Seminole Hotels be demolished but the Parkview lives to another day...
Quote from: Jaxson on June 15, 2010, 04:43:42 PM
Only in Jacksonville would the likes of the George Washington, Mayflower and Seminole Hotels be demolished but the Parkview lives to another day...
Similar things have happened in quite a few cities, not that that in any way excuses the abrupt destruction of the GW, Mayflower, and Seminole (ESPECIALLY not the Seminole).
You should see the beautiful Penn Station Building they knocked down in NYC just to build the ugly Madision Square Garden #4.
Quote from: Seraphs on June 15, 2010, 01:35:52 PM
... This hell hole probably has supernatural powers. Who knows some type of portal from the pits of hell with demons coming to and fro. Creepy place!!!
Well, that would explain a lot....
Every room seems to have a great view of downtown with open air breezes! Saw it today. Good to see progress in some direction.
Sad, but didn't they just finish the demo within the last year?
I still have hopes for this property though. With FSCJ 2 blocks away, and now McDonalds and the dollar store 2 blocks the other way, maybe we can see something happen there. With the 60,000 cars on the mathews bridge (when it's open) it seems like it would be a good location for something.
I'm not sure what I'd put there though...