Why Does Florida Need Amtrak?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/541951843_8kYdM-L.jpg)
Here are five reasons why Amtrak may be the solution to Florida's commuter and intercity rail problems.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-may-why-does-florida-need-amtrak
Great article... Cmon... Amtrak!
tad bit jacksonville-centric dont you think? how much traffic really goes from jacksonville to ocala to lakeland?
You are right. It's Jacksonville-centric because that is how the existing rail lines are set up.
Of course it's Jax-centric. You *are* on MetroJacksonville.com, after all. ;)
All rails lead to Jacksonville!
Considering that we are the 5Th largest rail center in North America, own the largest depot (unused) South of Washington, D.C., and that every passenger rail car from ANYWHERE to Florida will pass within mere feet of our downtown station.... Yep, it's Jacksonville.
OCKLAWAHA
I currently drive or fly to either Ft. Lauderdale or Tampa several times a month. The Southwest flights are always full and frequently delayed. I would gladly take the rail if available. There is no reason that there is not a high speed train on the I95 corridor to Miami but Lakeland/Tampa would be well utilized as well.
Who wrote today's article.
Would this be done in conjunction with new locomotives, equipment, etc?
I took Amtrak to Tampa last year...it took me 1.5 days to get there after all of the maintenance problems, delays, etc. I actually had to take a bus the last 100 miles.
They would need an upgrade.
Could someone PM me with a matter-of-fact (non-emotional) email to send to AMTRAK? The content should be elevated so as to speak to the target audience: AMTRAK officials.
Included should be rail-impact studies, traffic counts, even cost analyses and respective references.
Thanks.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 21, 2009, 11:38:52 AM
Who wrote today's article.
The Metro Jacksonville staff. It was a joint effort in preparation for today's rail workshops. We sent a few MJ guys down to Orlando to participate in the Florida HSR and Intercity passenger rail workshop today.
Quote from: Ron Mexico on May 21, 2009, 11:41:21 AM
Would this be done in conjunction with new locomotives, equipment, etc?
I took Amtrak to Tampa last year...it took me 1.5 days to get there after all of the maintenance problems, delays, etc. I actually had to take a bus the last 100 miles.
They would need an upgrade.
An upgrade in service and quality is the goal. If a statewide corridor system can be established, the problems you described above would be taken care of (at least in Florida).
Quote from: JaxNole on May 21, 2009, 12:44:41 PM
Could someone PM me with a matter-of-fact (non-emotional) email to send to AMTRAK? The content should be elevated so as to speak to the target audience: AMTRAK officials.
Included should be rail-impact studies, traffic counts, even cost analyses and respective references.
Thanks.
This is something Amtrak would like to do with Florida as a partner. FDOT, regional transportation authorities and local governments are the entities we need to get on board. We don't have a form letter right now, but thats something we'll get to work on.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 21, 2009, 12:56:26 PM
Quote from: Ron Mexico on May 21, 2009, 11:41:21 AM
Would this be done in conjunction with new locomotives, equipment, etc?
I took Amtrak to Tampa last year...it took me 1.5 days to get there after all of the maintenance problems, delays, etc. I actually had to take a bus the last 100 miles.
They would need an upgrade.
An upgrade in service and quality is the goal. If a statewide corridor system can be established, the problems you described above would be taken care of (at least in Florida).
I don't believe Amtrak has any specific plans to implement new equipment in Florida, but it sounds as if they have an interest in doing so as they did in California. Amtrak California has unique locomotives and passenger equipment that they do not use elsewhere, and their "interest" in Florida makes it sounds as if they want to do the same here. Most of Amtrak's difficulties lie in underfunding (ill-repaired equipment, excessive delays, etc.) but luckily they have received additional funds from the federal government so some of these issues may be resolved soon.
Amtrak California. That's exactly what we want here. Same type of service and goals.
Hmm. Amtrak wants it. Populace wants it. Can somebody get the bureaucracy out of the way!
I would love to see something parallel to I-95. With so many cities along the east cost (and they're not going to get smaller) rail along the east of florida would be essential.
There's a track (probably more than one, no doubt) that pretty much runs parallel to US1 already, all the way down at least through Brevard County.
The FEC line was there first. I-95 parallels it from Miami to Jacksonville. Btw, I've been told at the statewide HSR and intercity passenger rail workshop in Orlando today, the only representation from Jacksonville was Metro Jacksonville.
Quotethe only representation from Jacksonville was Metro Jacksonville.
Im shocked... Good work guys...
Quote from: thelakelander on May 21, 2009, 05:29:11 PM
The FEC line was there first. I-95 parallels it from Miami to Jacksonville. Btw, I've been told at the statewide HSR and intercity passenger rail workshop in Orlando today, the only representation from Jacksonville was Metro Jacksonville.
not that its a good excuse, but we did have a really big regional visioning event here today...most of the JTA folks were there....along with reps from FDOT like Brad Thoburn...and hey, even the Governor stopped by!
Okay, but JTA couldn't send SOMEBODY?
like I said...not a good excuse
Its all good. We'll be more than happy to take over the rail discussion with the bigwigs. We made some great contacts today. Btw, word is that they were upset Crist was not present.
they shouldn't have been...his visit here was not exactly useful
The main issues that stand in the way of an "Amtrak Florida" are money to make it happen and liability with the freight railroads. The leaders of Jacksonville really need to get on the ball with the downtown transportation center to make the most of this kind of opportunity.
I think the MJ front page article said there should be no liability issues with Amtrak on the freight rail lines, as they already have liability agreements. What sank SunRail was trying to create a new liability agreement.
And yes, local leaders need to get on the ball with getting the downtown transportation center going.
Quote from: ralpho37 on May 21, 2009, 10:59:04 PM
The main issues that stand in the way of an "Amtrak Florida" are money to make it happen and liability with the freight railroads.
Those were the issues with Sunrail. Amtrak already operates on freight rail lines, so their liability agreements are already in place. Amtrak has also seen an increase in billions of funding in the last year to improve and expand service. The main issue for an "Amtrak Florida" is for the state to agree to jump on board for the ride.
So what will it take to convince local stakeholders for their buy-ins?
How to communicate the value of Amtrak service so it is removed from the shelf and assigned high priority?
^Perhaps to convince Tampa, Orlando and Miami of the plan. If they come on board, Jax will win by default. Other than that, we need to keep hitting our leaders over the head with sound ideas. Eventually, they'll come around. From what I been told, Tampa's mayor and the head of Amtrak were both impressed by some of the ideas floated around by Metro Jacksonville representatives.
So Metro Jacksonville has allies in high positions. How do you strengthen the alliance and bring in stakeholders from Orlando and Miami?
Are Tampa and Orlando on the same page in terms of transportation modes?
What type of relationship exists between Tri-Rail and the I-4 corridor?
Now is the time to strike.
Charlotte had a lightly attended meeting on Amtrak and High Speed Rail. (This is a traveling dog and pony show by the Federal Railroad Administration with Amtrak's help).
Orlando's had an overflow crowd of maybe 300 in a room designed for 170. We packed the tables, closed the aisles and lined along all of the walls. Everybody that was anybody in Florida Transportation was there. Every Director, Planner, Supplier, Operator, Tri Rail, Sun Rail, HART, Tallahassee, FDOT, Doc Dockery, a great deal of the senate, Secretary of Transportation, vision, MPO's... Maybe Crist wasn't there but we couldn't have seen him if he was! Amazing Amtrak, FRA and $8 Billion dollars worth of "How do you want to spend it Florida?"
As the Chair of my workshop table, I had the pleasure to talk rail, face to face with Doc Dockery (Mr. High Speed Rail Florida). I also had Polk County, Lakeland, Hillsboro, HART, TriRail, and a traveling band of Amtrak/FRA folks.
We were given bland and open questions such as "What would be a successful system in 2 years? 10 years? and how would you measure it?"
We went into a hot discussion on education of the public coming from Amtrak, build traffic then HSR. Dockery locked horns with me on this one, wanting HSR first, "BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME." I argued that Amtrak expansion MUST be the training wheels for HSR... Then we moved to sprawl, "We're all anti sprawl - transit type people here at this table," I said, "Then WHY do we want to build our first HSR line down the middle of I-4, from inaccessible airport to airport? Who do you know in Orlando that wants to ride to the Tampa Airport? Moreover who do you know that wants to drive to the Orlando Airport from urban Orlando? Who lives on I-4?" Dockery countered with, "our ridership projections show we have the numbers to support it with tourism." To which, with some sarcasm, I started singing the M - I - C - K - E - Y M - O - U - S - E theme. Everyone laughed and Dockery agreed with me, Amtrak first. Our table spokes person told the crowd that Robert Mann and Doc Dockery actually agreed on something... LOL's.
Amtrak with the FRA is about to launch a whole new fleet of cars to reequip the trains for anyone that asks.
Florida East Coast, had a guy who came to me and said, "Why doesn't Jacksonville come to us? Our door is wide open!"
"Why is Jacksonville off the map I asked?" I got two answers:
1. "They haven't asked!"
2. "It's on the FLORIDA HSR VISION map, you'll just catch the train in Gainesville or Lake City..." WTF? "Yes folks, so it can go to Atlanta! AROUND Jacksonville."
The worst part of attending, was silence from Jacksonville, not a soul, no sound, no representative, no JTA, no Mayor, no JAA, no JPA, no Duval, no St. Johns, no MPO, no Clay, no Vision, no Baker, no Nassau, NOTHING! NADA! Holy Hell y'all, we are not there, we don't exist, we are a non-city, a non-player, a non-place, no brain, no leadership, no animation, no spark, no life.
As many of you know I have a desert cabin near 29 Palms, California. About a quarter of a mile down grade is an escarpment known as the Eamon's Fault. Yeah as in Earthquake. As in Landers 7.4 that busted the place up real good a few years ago. But in that dry place, there is movement, every few years the rocks move. They move more often and with more animation then my hometown. More action then I have seen from ANYONE that is ANYBODY in JACKSONVILLE! Out performed by ROCKS!
Talking to the Secretary of Transportation and the Amtrak and FEC people, they would all support and attend a rail summit in Jacksonville to consider MORE AMTRAK plus improvements.
The reality check is when the Amtrak boys jumped in with "Oh the Jacksonville Transportation Center?? Yeah, we've been told it's pretty dead, in fact we were working with Steve Arrington of your JTA and..." ENOUGH SAID folks, Steve is the same JTA planner that brought you the Skyway, he and I have done battle before. Now does anyone still believe JTA is serious about streetcars? commuter rail? Amtrak? Do you REALLY think they've given up the Billion Dollar Bus Ride? Partner, Jacksonville isn't even on the map. "THEY" don't even know where Jacksonville is.
FOR GODS SAKES PEOPLE, PULL YOUR HEADS OUT!
Maybe a bottle of SOCO and a cold shower and I can write something a bit more focused, God I'm Pissed!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, is it silly to organize workshops without JTA's buy-in, but still invite them? Maybe if they see organization is happening without them, they may wake up.
No, I think it's a great idea, not only is JTA NOT the sole player, there are other "Amtrak" clones out there too!
ANYONE can apply for these funds, hell if JTA doesn't want them, I'd be more then happy to get in on this.
Until tomorrow, I'm checking out y'all. 4 hours in my daughters Honda with her lead foot, and Stephendare singing in the back seat is enough for one day... (actually Stephen CAN sing!) Everything hurts... including our local pride. Nothing a cup full of poppy seeds, 5 Lortabs, 2 Somas and a couple shots of SOCO won't fix! YEE HAW! (SMILE Y'ALL!)
OCKLAWAHA
While Crist was here, talking the big bucks... I mean who can pass up another 100 square miles of new home builders? Got to be a few Million floating around between the builders associations and Tallahassee.
Meanwhile down in Orlando, the National High Speed Rail, Federal Railroad Administration and Amtrak, were laying out plans to bankroll $8 Billion in new money for rail. They said the meeting in Charlotte was something of a disappointment with few attending, but Orlando busted out the walls. Everybody in Florida that holds any sort of development dream for mass transportation was in Orlando. That speaks volumes to Crist, Peyton, JTA, COJ and Company.
Stephendare and Myself were the ONLY voices for Jacksonville. They hung a huge map on the wall that showed the "National Vision" and the "Florida Vision"... Well guess who ISN'T Coming To Dinner? These vile people want a high speed line from Orlando to Lake City, via Gainesville, more then they want the 1.3 Million persons in Jacksonville to play a role.
LAKE CITY? Oh the humanity... We couldn't have screwed this up any better if the City would have issued orders to "Stay Away From Rail." The FACT that no one else from Jacksonville or Northeast Florida even bothered to show up at this packed work shop says a couple of things about JTA, and Jax in general.
1. We are NOT serious about rail of ANY type, not streetcar, not commuter rail, not Amtrak, not Light Rail.
2. JTA could have sent somebody to learn how to get their hands on a piece of the Billion dollar pie.
3. Jacksonville is such a joke to the other Florida cities that people laugh at the city in an open forum!
4. Get ready for the BILLION DOLLAR BUS, I no longer think there is any plan for rail, simply window dressing.
This should be headlines, "Federal Government wants to hand Florida Billions for Rail". In fact it probably is headlines in the rest of the State, God knows they were all there. It won't make the cut in Jacksonville,
not even the TU, Journal Record, Business Journal, Folio or anyone else. I still see this as beyond belief.
So here we go again, "We don't do business with carnival people..." (Jacksonville's Ed Ball to Walt Disney) Another sickening thud, we're giving our 1919 train station away, our hub status is moving south. So while the rest of the State is finding ways to mate with the FRA and AMTRAK, we're all about Sodomy in Memorial Park.
F**King Idiots.
OCKLAWAHA
Your 100% correct Ock... every resident should be angry. It is their job to attend these events and at least participate and represent this city... >:(
So, Ock, how do we spearhead workshops with key stakeholders from the state and bring them here?
If the City and other entities are unwilling to jump on such a tremendous opportunity, let's bring the opportunity to our front yard and leave the door open for them.
For credibility we need someone with a city, state or national handle to be in on the sponsorship. Bishop? Johnson? or maybe Mica? Brown?
No doubt we should do this in the grand waiting room of the Jacksonville Terminal. Graphics of an expanded and revised Transportation Center would go a long way too, even if WE have to draw them.
OCKLAWAHA
We know they are champions and support these efforts. What is the most effective way to engage them?
The workshop could be titled "Rail Uprising: Jacksonville". Maybe not.
Still, to JTA's credit, we have a commuter rail study in progress, but that is still not enough.
We need to abandon regional thinking and, as Lake suggested, obtain statewide buy-ins.
What can I do to help you?
Hey, Ock. Maybe we need to emulate the Outer Beltway folks and PRIVATIZE this with State and Federal tax incentives. Let's create a private passenger railroad, swipe some Federal and State transit subsidy dollars and tax incentives, and show 'em how its done.
Hearken back to the good ol' days of private rail service. "The Sunshine State Railroad Company".... or, "Florida Arterial Rail Transit" (FART - "Replace your gas with ours!" - :D )
Virgin Trains, is already looking into entering the field on this side of the pond. If they do, I can't see them missing Florida's market.
It could be done with tax incentives.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteSo Metro Jacksonville has allies in high positions.
Now that is funny. Politicians love to speak out of BOTH sides of their mouthes. Sounds good to both sides that way. Who knows what the jax leaders were doing, perhaps Adam and John were displaying their new vision of the week. Who knows.
The fact for rail in NE Florida is that Amtrak offers the best chance for any rail development, as rail is not needed to alleviate any form of congestion in terms of highway congestion. The City has no money for it, The state is cutting back its funds for this year and next year. So the feds are the only salvation. If the metrojax people are the reason we get hsr in Jax, I will go down and stage a hug-in of the Bostwick building, so that we don't tear it down for the pocket park that we all know is coming.
I can't resist this, I found this in an old TRAINS magazine article on the new policy that AMTRAK has on people taking pictures of Amtrak trains. It is very funny!
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/217341/february-02-2009/nailed--em---amtrak-photographer
Colbert is a funny man.
The MPOs and cities along the FEC line have shared their interest in having AMTRAK service along this line with FDOT and AMTRAK
Has the City of Jacksonville recently submitted a Resolution of Support letter to FDOT and Amtrak, like Palm Coast, Jupiter and other coastal municipalities have? If so, I wonder why our media has decided not to cover this important issue?
Quote from: transitlover on June 02, 2009, 12:45:24 PM
The MPOs and cities along the FEC line have shared their interest in having AMTRAK service along this line with FDOT and AMTRAK
This is the issue in Jacksonville. All of our governmental offices are within a mile of each other, but these organizations apparently don't talk. Right now, Palm freaking Coast has a resolution supporting this in writing. Can you please point me to where the Jacksonville City Council's is?
Yes, it would be good if some type of public level of support could be expressed by Jacksonville (council/mayor's office). One would think that vocal support by the State's largest municipality would carry more weight than something produced by Palm Coast.
If this letter has already been issued, Metro Jacksonville would love to publish it to prove our city supports additional transportation alternatives.
Sound familiar?
QuoteJune 3, 2009
Amtrak Signs Agreement with Virginia to Provide New Passenger Rail Service
Nation's Railroad Uniquely Positioned to Develop Partnerships with Other States
WASHINGTON - With a new agreement signed with Virginia, Amtrak is now the choice of 15 states to operate their state-funded passenger rail service and is uniquely positioned to develop partnerships with other states, said Amtrak President and CEO Joseph Boardman.
"Amtrak is excited to establish new passenger rail service for Virginia and is seeking opportunities to partner with other states to provide additional rail transportation options," Boardman stated, highlighting the national reach of the railroad's extensive network of stations and mechanical and operational facilities as well as its equipment fleet and reservations system.
Boardman stressed that a primary objective of Amtrak is to be the operator of the national high speed rail system being developed by states with new federal funding provided in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Amtrak understands the needs, opportunities and challenges associated with creating and operating new passenger rail service and is able to provide the leadership and technical assistance necessary to successfully help states reach that goal, he said.
Under the Virginia agreement, Amtrak will receive $17.2 million from Virginia over a three-year demonstration period to provide new daily service to Washington, D.C. from Lynchburg beginning in October 2009 and from Richmond beginning in December 2009. Detailed schedules and fares will be finalized by the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation and Amtrak in the coming months.
In addition to Virginia, Amtrak currently has partnership agreements with the following states to operate state-funded passenger rail services: California, Illinois, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, New York, North Carolina, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Texas, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin.
About Amtrak
Amtrak has posted six consecutive years of growth in ridership and revenue, carrying more than 28.7 million passengers in the last fiscal year. Amtrak provides intercity passenger rail service to more than 500 destinations in 46 states on a 21,000-mile route system. For schedules, fares and information, passengers may call 800-USA-RAIL or visit Amtrak.com.
Almost half of these listed states have experienced "Corridor type growth", along their rail lines, which begs the question, "Where the HELL is Florida?" We have got to get active and LOUD, Yesterday!
BTW, a New York, Washington, Charlottesville, Charlotte, Columbia, Savannah, JAX train makes great sense, perhaps we should push for this. This train was NEVER operated in the old days due to company loyalitys, but today it would be popular. In fact today we can operate Amtrak across former competitor boundries, so what are we waiting for. We once had a round-about train to Charlotte called the "Carolina or Skyland Special" maybe it's time to revisit this on a direct Ashville-Salsbury-Charlotte-Columbia-Savannah, JAX, Tampa/Miami route.
OCKLAWAHA
Biden apparently told CA the same thing he told FL about high speed rail
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/06/though-california-is-in-the-throes-of-a-budget-crisis-vice-president-joe-biden-said-today-that-the-states-high-speed-rail.html
^ Yes, sounds like they are in the running for over 10% of the 8 billion.
wrote to yarborough... he said "Thank you for your email regarding Amtrak service and the FEC line."
With the Florida High Speed rail plan down in flames today, it's time to take another look at Amtrak corridor service and what it could do for Florida.
Quote from: Lunican on February 16, 2011, 12:20:17 PM
With the Florida High Speed rail plan down in flames today, it's time to take another look at Amtrak corridor service and what it could do for Florida.
good luck with that....I doubt Scott has any interest in funding (subsidizing) it...heck, he even mentioned the TriRail subsidy in his decision to abandon HSR.
Remember...very little state money would have been used for HSR...the same can't be said about Amtrak
Why...hmm...there are so many reasons...for one...this state..."the sunshine state"..is world known...everone around the world knows our name and where we are...to make it easier and more efficient it make complete sense that we lead our nation in train development..our thief of a governor wants to make it easier for large corporations to make more money here than anywhere else yet he plans on defunding education and keeping this state last in education...who is going to work at these high end jobs he promises that deregulation will create..this state's foundation .which is its children, are some of the most uneducated students in the world yet he thinks they are all going to get these awesome jobs..this thief has nothing but money on his mind which is what got him in trouble with the feds and why he paid the fines..which is an admission of guilt. This liar needs to be empeached now before he does too much damage.
QuoteThis liar needs to be empeached now before he does too much damage.
And Alex Sink's supporters come out of the woodwork. Where is Alex these days????? Surely she has a voice on the subject since every politician with something to GAIN from HSR has spoken in the last few hours.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 16, 2011, 04:11:29 PM
QuoteThis liar needs to be empeached now before he does too much damage.
And Alex Sink's supporters come out of the woodwork. Where is Alex these days????? Surely she has a voice on the subject since every politician with something to GAIN from HSR has spoken in the last few hours.
If only they had bothered to vote...
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2011, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: Lunican on February 16, 2011, 12:20:17 PM
With the Florida High Speed rail plan down in flames today, it's time to take another look at Amtrak corridor service and what it could do for Florida.
good luck with that....I doubt Scott has any interest in funding (subsidizing) it...heck, he even mentioned the TriRail subsidy in his decision to abandon HSR.
Remember...very little state money would have been used for HSR...the same can't be said about Amtrak
Realistically, a decision like today (assuming it stands) probably puts us back a decade on future commuter rail and intercity statewide amtrak alternatives. You're not going to see much new state investment on projects like this during Scott's term (they're simply not in his idealogy) and we'll probably miss the Obama boat for good for landing federal money on these types of projects. We better hope decent money is raised through the mobility fee to get a small 3-4 mile streetcar starter line off the ground in the next few years. If not, the only thing fixed in this community for the next generation will be the existing skyway (assuming Mullaney doesn't shut it down, lol). Detroit is looking better everyday! ;D
Detroit is alot colder. Did hear though that a friend of mine is seeing people go around up north asking $250 per house to shovel off the snow. Gotta love the entrepreneurial spirit!
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2011, 12:49:48 PM
Quote from: Lunican on February 16, 2011, 12:20:17 PM
With the Florida High Speed rail plan down in flames today, it's time to take another look at Amtrak corridor service and what it could do for Florida.
good luck with that....I doubt Scott has any interest in funding (subsidizing) it...heck, he even mentioned the TriRail subsidy in his decision to abandon HSR.
Remember...very little state money would have been used for HSR...the same can't be said about Amtrak
Just day's ago we were all set to blow $300 Million dollars of State money on a USELESS HIGH SPEED RAIL LINE. The total cost for the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY (2 trains each way daily) is $265 Million... Assuming that Scott would fund the FEC project (he won't BTW) and not the HSR, we could install the FEC trains and still have $35 million in the bank.
You are correct though that with HIGH SPEED RAIL $300 million was very little money, with Amtrak it's a fortune.OCKLAWAHA
The FEC should be far more important then the proposed Orlando-Tampa HSR. Scott is a narrow-minded idiot to see past that. Let me think, Florida has a 2010 census population of 18 million, of that 18 million, at least 10 million people are on the east coast of Florida. So just adding a passenger rail line from J-ville to Miami could potentially effect 10 million people. And let me think there are no less then 5 international airports on the east coast too. And these aren't small airports either (Jacksonville and Melbourne International are probably the smallest, but still kicking out 5 million+ passengers a year). On top of that you have millions of tourists and the booming cruise industry. Say someone in like Jacksonville wants to go cruising on the new Oasis of the Seas in Miami, well start your vacation on the train, instead of dealing with 300 miles of I-95 (hell you would need a cruise after dealing with that). Dang I do say for all the money that flows through Florida, and all the people that live along that route, that we lay down at least $265 million and create the route. Yep this is a pure case of stupid.
Quote from: Mattius92 on February 17, 2011, 01:44:53 PM
The FEC should be far more important then the proposed Orlando-Tampa HSR. Scott is a narrow-minded idiot to see past that. Let me think, Florida has a 2010 census population of 18 million, of that 18 million, at least 10 million people are on the east coast of Florida. So just adding a passenger rail line from J-ville to Miami could potentially effect 10 million people. And let me think there are no less then 5 international airports on the east coast too. And these aren't small airports either (Jacksonville and Melbourne International are probably the smallest, but still kicking out 5 million+ passengers a year). On top of that you have millions of tourists and the booming cruise industry. Say someone in like Jacksonville wants to go cruising on the new Oasis of the Seas in Miami, well start your vacation on the train, instead of dealing with 300 miles of I-95 (hell you would need a cruise after dealing with that). Dang I do say for all the money that flows through Florida, and all the people that live along that route, that we lay down at least $265 million and create the route. Yep this is a pure case of stupid.
+1
QuoteSo just adding a passenger rail line from J-ville to Miami could potentially effect 10 million people.
With 11% unemployment, how does this translate to jobs? Sure it would be nice to take the train to Miami in 6 hours, but we are in jobs mode in the state with Scott now.
Besides, you can take a one-way trip for 5 bucks, roundtrip for 10 at the moment on one of the luxury buses that has started operations in Jacksonville. Still no driving and luxury of traveling on the roads....
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 03:42:52 PM
QuoteSo just adding a passenger rail line from J-ville to Miami could potentially effect 10 million people.
With 11% unemployment, how does this translate to jobs? Sure it would be nice to take the train to Miami in 6 hours, but we are in jobs mode in the state with Scott now.
Besides, you can take a one-way trip for 5 bucks, roundtrip for 10 at the moment on one of the luxury buses that has started operations in Jacksonville. Still no driving and luxury of traveling on the roads....
Simple. For example, let's say I want expand my Jacksonville based business by opening a branch in Miami. To do that, I need a way to get there fast, cheap, and efficiently so I can monitor my business in Jacksonville as well as Miami. If possible, I want to leave Jacksonville in the morning, go to Miami and do business, then come back home in the evening. Driving is unproductive and flying is too expensive and complicated with the TSA and all. The train sounds like a good alternative if you can make it cheaper for me upfront and less complicated than flying.
That bus is a good option but I don't think their business model can survive - especially if gas prices jump. If there is some way we could electrify those tracks, I think you can create a good alternative for me to get to Miami to start a branch so I can go off and hire people there.
Now, if you can make the train service very cheap, I can send people from Jacksonville to Miami and back all day allowing me to be very flexible with my personnel.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 03:42:52 PM
QuoteSo just adding a passenger rail line from J-ville to Miami could potentially effect 10 million people.
With 11% unemployment, how does this translate to jobs? Sure it would be nice to take the train to Miami in 6 hours, but we are in jobs mode in the state with Scott now.
Short term jobs would be created in constructing the system and stations in each of the communities along the corridor. Long term up would come in the form of those employed in operating the service (ex. ticket sales, etc.), maintaining it (ex. yard operations in Jax for switching trains at the terminal), transit oriented development spin-off employment and support services (ex. a train with dining has to purchase food and drinks from someone).
The last job creation estimates I saw with this Amtrak East Coast project were 2,100 short term (3 years) and 6,300 through 2025.
QuoteNow, if you can make the train service very cheap
How cheap is VERY CHEAP?
I can drive from Jax to Miami in 5 hours, maybe 4.5 if I get on the turnpike. A tank of gas for 60 bucks and my time in the vehicle which I can trade with calls and educational audible.com productions.
Bus maybe 6-7 hours, hey, right now it runs 10 bucks round trip.
Right now the Silver Star will take 11 hours and cost me $113 each way.
American from Jax to MIA is $360, but it only takes about 1.5 hours takeoff to touchdown (No accounting for TSA).
Would I rather take a 6-hour train ride, sure thing. Governor Scott was in favor of the East Coast Amtrak solution, said it would cost 150 million to build the stations and improve the signals, new spurs, etc. I think its doable, but unless its close in cost to driving, I would probably only use it to get to Miami for a cruise deal.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 17, 2011, 12:53:43 PM
Just day's ago we were all set to blow $300 Million dollars of State money on a USELESS HIGH SPEED RAIL LINE. The total cost for the FLORIDA EAST COAST RAILWAY (2 trains each way daily) is $265 Million...
2 incorrect statements
1. The $285 million remaining for HSR was to be covered by the private sector
2. Amtrak/FEC is $285 million bare bones...the full project is $500 million...and that doesn't include Jax. Terminal
Regardless, what do you think is a better investment, the Orlando-Tampa HSR or the FEC??
FEC/Amtrak all the way.
FEC/Amtrak....
FEC/Amtrak.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 17, 2011, 05:44:21 PM
Bus maybe 6-7 hours, hey, right now it runs 10 bucks round trip.
I must be out of the loop a little. What bus line can get you to Miami and back for $10? I looked into RedCoach, and it seemed to only have direct routes to Orlando and Tampa from here.
EDIT: Okay, I see you must be taking that into account, as it seems to be set up for quick transfer to a bus to Miami from the Orlando hub (5 minutes between arrival and departure).
FEC/AMTRAK the money could be better spent by connecting the entire State with improved Amtrak service!
FEC/Amtrak
Quote from: fsujax on February 17, 2011, 07:26:34 PM
FEC/AMTRAK the money could be better spent by connecting the entire State with improved Amtrak service!
I agree...dollar for dollar, FEC/ASmtrak is a much better investment...that said, FDOT applied for stimulus funds for both projects...HSR got funded, FEC didn't.
so, I'll ask another question...knowing that the $ can't be reallocated to other projects in Florida, would you rather do HSR or send the money to another state?
do you think amtrak will come it and take over if rick scott and us dot let take over and have the high speed rail done right it will be delayed if amtrak took control of it.
nope...Amtrak isn't exactly private...although they are on one of the 8 interested consortiums... plus Mica hates Amtrak and isn't going to let them in.
nelson is talking about amtrak, local mpo, local transit hart/tbarta to take over control from the state and the private sector will pay 300 million and amtrak could risk on the operation side, but i just wonder do if is possible pull something off, john mica has never like amtrak he still think some private company would take over the northeast and the profits will go through the roof with out tax support.
State could fund the 150 million for FEC/Amtrak and the investment would be much better than 2.4 billion for something that is unknown, unproven and untested in our state. We have Amtrak and it is successful. Mica sure acts more like a Democrat than a Republican!
but the state is likely not putting up any of the money for HSR...so $150 million for FEC would be extra....I'm totally ok with that, but do you think Scott would be?
PETITION!!! Well anyways I dont think we have much hope while Scott is in office, and I do say I was a little excited about the Tampa-Orlando HSR because I was planning on attending USF (UCF doesn't have my major), but I wanted to go to Orlando a couple times a month. Despite it dying, I would much rather see the FEC/Amtrack because I know it would be much better for the money. There are so many towns and cities that would benefit from it.
Let's see how the next week plays out.....
QuoteFrom Washington to Tallahassee, Florida lawmakers scrambled Thursday to save $2.4 billion in federal money for high-speed rail that Gov. Rick Scott rejected.
In Washington, members of Florida’s Congressional delegation met with U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who gave them one week to cobble together a complicated deal that would give the money to a private entity such as Amtrak or a regional planning organization.
“The cart’s in a ditch right now and we’ve got to figure out a way if we can all pull it out together,†said U.S. Rep. John Mica, an Orlando area Republican who is chairman of the powerful House transportation committee.
In Tallahassee, a veto-proof majority of the Florida Senate rebuked Scott in a letter that urged the federal government to give the state the money Scott has refused.
“Politics should have no place in the future of Florida’s transportation, as evidenced by this letter of bipartisan support,†said the letter, signed by 26 members of the Republican-controlled Florida Senate.
full article: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/02/17/v-fullstory/2072075/scott-rebuked-by-26-senators-over.html#ixzz1EK87sA2C
I hope they put him in line...
I agree Matt let's (legislativly) chain that mutt.
Quote“Politics should have no place in the future of Florida’s transportation, as evidenced by this letter of bipartisan support,†said the letter, signed by 26 members of the Republican-controlled Florida Senate
Politics has no place in transportation issues? Well then, how does the voting public effect the outcome?
The voting public didn't decide to send back the $2.4 billion (proven by the vocal outrage across the state), one individual did. The quote basically means personal politics (which in this case appears to be non fact based) should not be able to trump realistic transportation needs. If Rick, doesn't like the concept of rail, he doesn't have to ride on it. However, he should not be able to kill such a major project on his own because of a political or personal bias.
How is Amtrak a private entity? Did the government sever the 1 billion it gives it every year? Is it self-sustaining now on its own? Private entity, really????
Quotebut the state is likely not putting up any of the money for HSR...so $150 million for FEC would be extra....I'm totally ok with that, but do you think Scott would be?
Scott backs a winner, and Amtrak service in Florida is a winner. Mica should get off us butt and fix the east/west train that ran from Jax to New Orleans and get that going again. Or get the FEC/Amtrak running again. That 150 million will be recouped quickly with people cutting 4-5 hours off and going to Daytona and St. Augustine again.
What winner is Scott backing? He wants federal HSR money used to widen I-4, which is clearly not going to happen.
Amtrak. He stated yesterday he wants to use the money instead on ROADS, RAILS and PORTS.
Where do you see the flaw in that logic? RR&P?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 18, 2011, 02:59:32 PM
The voting public didn't decide to send back the $2.4 billion (proven by the vocal outrage across the state), one individual did. The quote basically means personal politics (which in this case appears to be non fact based) should not be able to trump realistic transportation needs. If Rick, doesn't like the concept of rail, he doesn't have to ride on it. However, he should not be able to kill such a major project on his own because of a political or personal bias.
Then he should have said 'personal agenda' and not 'politics'. It was confusing to me for a politician to tell another politician that politics should not be part it.
Mtrain, did he miss what just happened to Wisconsin and Ohio? Its flawed in that the $2.4 billion is federally specified for HSR. So, if he passes on it, its going to HSR projects in other states. If he wants money for roads, other rail projects and ports, he needs to tab into the dedicated funding mechanisms to get them or fund them with state money. A having a governor who doesn't understand how federal funding works is a huge flaw, imo.
QuoteThe voting public didn't decide to send back the $2.4 billion (proven by the vocal outrage across the state), one individual did.
I didn't vote for Obama, and I didn't vote for the people who are forcing me to have healthcare, so where do I get off that train?
QuoteA having a governor who doesn't understand how federal funding works is a huge flaw, imo.
40 days into it and you are ready to throw him out with the bathwater. Great, I guess we should all brace ourselves for Hurricane season????
Quote from: dougskiles on February 18, 2011, 04:22:52 PM
Then he should have said 'personal agenda' and not 'politics'. It was confusing to me for a politician to tell another politician that politics should not be part it.
This HSR along the I-4 stuff dates back decades. Growing up in Central Florida and knowing the history of all of this, it wasn't confusing to me.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 18, 2011, 04:25:59 PM
QuoteA having a governor who doesn't understand how federal funding works is a huge flaw, imo.
40 days into it and you are ready to throw him out with the bathwater. Great, I guess we should all brace ourselves for Hurricane season????
I'm an Independent, so I could really care less about both party platforms. However, I do think its foolish to give away a chance at having $2.4 billion spent in our state and the potential of thousands of jobs being created here, without more in depth vetting. Especially considering the guy has only been in office for 40 days. That's not a lot of time to really dig into the details and decide to have your $2.4 billion spent in California, Texas, Illinois and New York, instead of the state you claim you want to create jobs in. I'm not alone in this matter either. A veto-proof majority of the Florida Senate has the same position.
QuoteThat's not a lot of time to really dig into the details and decide to have your $2.4 billion spent in California, Texas, Illinois and New York, instead of the state you claim you want to create jobs in.
Lake, you appear to ONLY be looking at this argument from the HSR point of view. What about the Ports, what about the railroad expansions here in NE Florida, to assist the port. Did you see the Business Journal today and the article that the Port is going to spend 2 million more to expand the rail service to Blount Island since they expect to see 100,000 more cars this year than last?
I don't really care what happens to the land of the evil mouse and those south of it. I'm selfish and greedy for NE Florida. I'm honest and passionate for that greed and I want us to succeed more than the rest of the state. That's my angle, I'm still trying to figure out why all I have heard from you is I-4, HSR and manufacturing jobs for Central Florida.
Because it has nothing to do with the port, highways or anything else you may believe is a higher priority. Its a dedicated federal fund for HSR construction. If its not spent in this state, it won't be redirected to Florida ports, highways or other rail projects. It will go to other HSR projects in OTHER STATES.
Also, what makes you think a HSR manufacturing facility would end up in Central Florida? The reason for constructing a facility would be to market the product to the rest of the US as HSR expands. Considering our location and us being a rail hub, I'd say NE Florida has a great chance at benefitting. We just have to get off the couch and get in the game.
QuoteBecause it has nothing to do with the port, highways or anything else you may believe is a higher priority. Its a dedicated federal fund for HSR construction. If its not spent in this state, it won't be redirected to Florida ports, highways or other rail projects. It will go to other HSR projects in OTHER STATES.
Also, what makes you think a HSR manufacturing facility would end up in Central Florida? The reason for constructing a facility would be to market the product to the rest of the US as HSR expands. Considering our location and us being a rail hub, I'd say NE Florida has a great chance at benefitting. We just have to get off the couch and get in the game
HSR is dead in Florida, the sooner you realize it, the sooner we can move on to productive discussions.
I would rather the state focus on Ports, Railroads, and Roads.
The HSR deadline is February 25th. Hopefully, our business community, attorneys, senators and congressmen will find away around Scott, so our economic opportunity can be fully vetted by the private sector. However, ports, railroads and roads are a completely different focus from a funding standpoint. I would hope we can focus on improving all of them and other areas as well, simultaneously.
QuoteHopefully, our business community, attorneys, senators and congressmen will find away around Scott, so our economic opportunity can be fully vetted by the private sector.
I don't see any way of it, but I wish you luck in finding it.
If they fail, I'll congratulate CA, IL and NY for benefitting from our loss. In the meantime, you can focus on helping Scott convince Obama to take Florida's HSR money back from those states for use on our ports instead.
I understand that there is probably better things to spend $2.4 billion on, but if it can only be used for HSR, and its being offered to the state of Florida, why reject it. How often does a state get offered funding of that magnitude for public transit. While I have already seen some flaws in the plan, like the lack of a connection between the proposed HSR and the SunRail system being build in Orlando. Also I do say the stations are a little extravagant, could save some by making them a little less extravagant. Despite it all, this could be a major step toward a statewide HSR system. Risks have to be made, but this HSR plan has been moving along at full throttle until two days ago when Scott cut the power.
Anyways connectivity to ports such as JaxPort, is a CSX and COJ issue, not as much as a state issue. If Jaxport and CSX worked together I am pretty sure they could get better connectivity to the port. Oh and what about that 9B... lol. Looks like I covered, ports, rail and roads...
Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.
Great example, JeffreyS.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 18, 2011, 08:01:01 PM
Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.
yep...I helped write a letter to the editor this week that includes that reminder in the closing paragraph.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2011, 08:53:45 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 18, 2011, 08:01:01 PM
Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.
yep...I helped write a letter to the editor this week that includes that reminder in the closing paragraph.
letter to the editor where?
Quote from: Mattius92 on February 18, 2011, 05:29:52 PM
I understand that there is probably better things to spend $2.4 billion on, but if it can only be used for HSR, and its being offered to the state of Florida, why reject it.
Because the CURRENT HSR PLAN is going to fail so big as to destroy HSR in the USA for decades. Think SKYWAY on steroids. Quote from: JeffreyS on February 18, 2011, 08:01:01 PM
Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.
TRUE, the wise will build LIGHT RAIL and a Carolina-Like rail passenger system. Florida is planning NEITHER, and until a plan comes along that has a chance of real success in ridership, traffic relief, checking sprawl, lowering costs and travel time, we should keep our hands out of the cookie jar. Florida HIGH SPEED RAIL will do none of those things BTW. OCKLAWAHA
Keep your hands out the jar too long and you'll starve yourself to death.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 19, 2011, 12:08:11 PM
Quote from: Mattius92 on February 18, 2011, 05:29:52 PM
I understand that there is probably better things to spend $2.4 billion on, but if it can only be used for HSR, and its being offered to the state of Florida, why reject it.
Because the CURRENT HSR PLAN is going to fail so big as to destroy HSR in the USA for decades. Think SKYWAY on steroids.
Ock, for the same reason you cite here for not building the proposed HSR, we should all be for NOT building a further expansion of the Skyway. A further expansion will merely magnify the Skyway's already legendary folly. As such, it will damage even more the hopes for commuter rail and streetcars in Jax. It may even damage support for intercity rail between Jax and points elsewhere.
Once we realize that expansion of the Skyway is akin to Ock's issues with this HSR project, we should go on and kill the Skyway, as well, given we seem to agree it doesn't work in its current configuration either.
Your talking apples and watermelon's stjr.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 19, 2011, 12:32:29 PM
Your talking apples and watermelon's stjr.
OCKLAWAHA
I love both, Ock. Which is you and which is me? :D
If you read the comments made on various local comment threads regarding the HSR decision, you will see multitudes of references to the failing Skyway. Likewise, on 89.9's call-in show this week on the subject with Steve from MJ participating. Tell me the Skyway hasn't influenced public (and, thus, political) thinking on rail mass transit. Doesn't matter what you think the "reality" is, it is the "perception" here that ultimately affects support for such projects. Right or wrong, the Skyway has dramatically impacted that "perception". As I have said before, you can ignore that at the peril to higher priority projects. The "track" (no pun intended) record speaks for itself. Not a single area rail project since the Skyway came out of the ground and no evidence in the public realm that any firm commitments to fund and build such projects are on the horizon. Just lip service and delaying study upon worthless study to appease the likes of mass transit supporters by a toothless TPO controlled by master road builders, FDOT and JTA.
^Stephen, you digress. My post here had to do with the politics of the Skyway, not its performance. I was merely noting the similarities in Ock's observations about the political consequences of a failing HSR project with that of the failing Skyway. I stand by my post.
As to your claim that every car is running at capacity and the Skyway is finally "succeeding" (I guess you are saying the Skyway is now carrying 100% or more of the projected riders from 20 years ago, up from less than 10% just months ago?), well, thanks for the laugh of the day. You should call in the general media for that breaking news!
And, regarding the failure of Downtown, that's a chicken and egg discussion. The Skyway was promised to be a catalyst for downtown, not the other way around.
I don't agree with stjr's position on the skyway but I do see how Ock's position with Florida's HSR plan is similar to stjr's argument on the skyway. In both cases, I think taking advantage of the federal money was/is a good thing. Imo, where we continue to fall apart is in the implementation and long term land integration process. Considering these opportunities only present themselves every other decade or so, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, with no viable alternative plan or funding for it in place, is simply foolish to me.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on February 19, 2011, 02:14:29 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2011, 08:53:45 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 18, 2011, 08:01:01 PM
Remember when Charlotte received the light rail money Orlando rejected. Now they have shown us all how it should be done and the wise will follow.
yep...I helped write a letter to the editor this week that includes that reminder in the closing paragraph.
letter to the editor where?
it was sent to newspapers all over the state...time will tell on who picks it up
Send it to us. Maybe we'll run it on the front page next week.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 04:30:26 PM
I don't agree with stjr's position on the skyway but I do see how Ock's position with Florida's HSR plan is similar to stjr's argument on the skyway.
Certainly there were similaritarys back before the Skyway was built, but today, the Skyway is the rough equal to 5 miles of the CSX corridor in Central Florida with a rocket train on it. They should have gone with a simple, off the shelf, conventional technology and not try and reinvent the wheel. Likewise, HSR down the middle of a freeway and missing not only 75% of the corridor, but missing the Orlando Metropolitan area itself SHOULD NEVER BE BUILT. The catch is, we did build the Skyway, right over the protests and howls of a good sector of the public, (shades of JTA's BRT shows), we got the money and it is SPENT. Today it is time to correct the mistakes by revamping the system to something more down-to-earth, finding TOD and other uses within it's stations, and selling anything and everything related to Skyway to raise funds. As this segment goes from nothing to nowhere, not unlike HSR, we need to complete it to reach the markets. In the case of HSR, we need to redraw the lines so that it too reaches the markets and does so managable technological increments. QuoteIn both cases, I think taking advantage of the federal money was/is a good thing. Imo, where we continue to fall apart is in the implementation and long term land integration process. Considering these opportunities only present themselves every other decade or so, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, with no viable alternative plan or funding for it in place, is simply foolish to me.
The apparent disagreement of my position and your Lake, is that I don't see it as throwing the baby out with the bath water. With the Skyway we need to revisit and correct the mistake of never completing a single proposed route, we can fix the fixable, but it's a little late to cancel the project. Remember refunding those dollars to the FRA or the FTA, whatever we scrap we must refund. With HSR we need to STOP, redraw the lines, tweek the plan, and forge straight ahead. I don't believe this means cancel the project forever, or even that we must forgo the federal dollars, but we MUST GET THIS RIGHT.
What disturbs me most is the degree of control the private parties will have in decision making. From what I read Florida says, "It must be: this, that and these... bid on it and see if you can make it fly." Rather then a more reasonable approach that says, it should run from this city to that city and YOU figure out where and how. OCKLAWAHA
Has the RFP been released? It would be interesting to see exactly what it does say. I thought that it hadn't at this point. For all we know, you might be able to get away with conventional technology and have a little flexibility in creating a workable project. All of these are answers that should not be guesses before sending $2.4 billion to another state with no true funding in place for an alternative. Anyway, I did find it interesting that even at the current estimated cost, it shakes out to around $30 million a mile.
i really hope amtrak could take over this high speed rail from the state of florida but john mica really hates amtrak because it cost over a 1.4-1.6 bil year to operate therse is no way john mica will allow amtrak too take over.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 19, 2011, 08:54:49 PM
Has the RFP been released? It would be interesting to see exactly what it does say. I thought that it hadn't at this point.
no...it was expected out in late February or early March...but at this point, I would assume it is on hold