Metro Jacksonville

OK, folks.  You get one choice.  Pick it and live with it.  ;D

I think your poll would be much more effective if you approached it with an open mind. Questions such as:

"I understand the new MPO City planning consultants have recommended finishing the Skyway."
"I understand that the original Skyway didn't cost $100 Million a mile, that most of the expense was in the support system, high tech maintenance facility, electronics, etc. If it can be expanded at a price near that of BRT Quickway or LRT, then lets finish it."
"I understand the JTA consultants from Gannet Flemming felt that the Skyway would nearly guarantee the success of rail at Jacksonville Terminal, and thus we should carefully consider how to expand it."
"Realizing that the Skyway is as much a complete system as 1/2 of an automobile would be a complete car, it's high time to complete it."

Without some balance, your poll cannot be taken seriously.  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, there is no bias.  I got you covered.  Even though I said only one answer, you picked two:

(1)  Let's go for DOUBLE OR NOTHING.  I don't give a damn about history or proven failure.  Let' double our bet by expanding the system and hope people chose it over other transportation options that are better and cheaper  and

(2) Grow this monster!  Expand it because I believe those same experts who screwed the original projections up by 90%.  They can't possibly be wrong twice!  I have faith.

See...this is where the fun begins.  Pick your poison  ;)

Thanks for participating.

P.S. Ock, I took my cue from your railroad survey (which I dutifully completed sans the $ky-high-way question!)  I thought your questions led the survey taker right to where you wanted to take them.  Don't I get an A+ for learning the craft?

The poll is kind of geared towards the negative end.  Thus, the only one that was close enough to my view was:

Only expand it if it comes after all other rail mass transit including street cars, light rail, and suburban rail.

I do believe its best to move forward first with a cheaper rail system that can complement the skyway by stretching rail into areas outside of downtown.  However, I'm not ready to say that no expansion possibilities should be considered until all long range regional rail plans are implemented.  For example, assuming something eventually rises on the Brooklyn Park site, it would make sense to construct a station at the existing operations center on Riverside Av.  Although the track is already there, building a station would be considered expansion.

Say, stjr, have you stopped beating little kittens?  Yes or No are your only choices¹

And, what the thelakelander said.


¹ What? That's not a fair question?   ;)

Not sure why I voted since everything that could be wrong with a poll is encompassed in this one... >:(

QuoteI think your poll would be much more effective if you approached it with an open mind

Seriously! This poll sucks.

I'm not voting on this mess of a poll. Could we have real polls on this board?

I voted for the one that would never ever happen.
And I really don't want it to, but if we're not yet investing in the light rail option from NAS Jax to downtown, then at least make someone think.

Since the corridor already has existing tracks, it would not make sense to spend hundreds of millions building an electrified light rail line parallel.  It would be like spending billions to build dedicated busways next to the tracks.  However, using the existing tracks with commuter rail can be equally effective for this stretch at a fraction of the cost.  Fortunately, this is one of the corridors JTA has been studying the commuter rail.  Its also one that can benefit from the implementation of an Amtrak statewide corridor service.  Given the congestion issues in Clay County, excellent track conditions and the potential of freight reduction due to Sunrail (Orlando's plan), it should probably be one of the first regional rail corridors to come online.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 08, 2009, 05:46:48 AM
Say, stjr, have you stopped beating little kittens?  Yes or No are your only choices¹

And, what the thelakelander said.


¹ What? That's not a fair question?   ;)

Quote from: Deuce on April 08, 2009, 09:29:15 AM
I'm not voting on this mess of a poll. Could we have real polls on this board?

Quote from: Shwaz on April 08, 2009, 09:18:07 AM

QuoteI think your poll would be much more effective if you approached it with an open mind

Seriously! This poll sucks.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 08, 2009, 06:59:26 AM
Not sure why I voted since everything that could be wrong with a poll is encompassed in this one... >:(

Well, I see people with a sense of humor are all over this board - NOT!  Lighten up people.  This poll is a tongue in cheek farce about all the positions being taken on MJ regarding the $ky-high-way (i.e. using humor to make a point).  I thought I made that pretty obvious with the way I wrote it but I guess subtle (I actually thought it was not-so-subtle) humor isn't supported here.

The poll was intended to highlight what I felt was the blind support for this project just because it exists - not because it is a worthwhile venture.  The poll was meant to show, through humor, how the justifications being given look when cast in a different light.  All the answers I offered are mostly humorous embellishments of a justification offered somewhere along the way by a MJ poster.  If one has trouble picking an answer in the poll, maybe they need to rethink why they think expansion is justified. That's my point.  :D

P.S.  Opinions to the contrary given in a manner stilted toward only showing imagined benefits of the $ky-high-way without revealing its other options or extraordinary costs are akin to what most of the postings on MJ have been.  This just swings the pendulum back the other way.

Stjr, so what is your response to 78% of the majority of the votes suggesting expansion at some point in the future?

Right, I think the key thing there is "at some point in the future".  There can be no denying that the Skyway has been an albatross from day one and has never lived up to any expectations.  That being said, I have always felt it could still be very valuable in the future.  No need to throw the baby out with the bath water.  A lot of the issues here are convincing some people that its OK to use public transportation- it's not just for poor or dirty people.  I had a friend who worked in the Stein-Mart building and I was going to meet him at Hemming Plaza to go to lunch a few times.  He would bemoan how to park around there and I kept telling him "just hop on the skyway, what is it, a buck? 50 cents? just ride that."  He would never even consider it.  Most residents of the city don't have a public transportation mindset.. it will take a while.  But with practical and useful services in place, I am convinced that its just getting them to take that first step on the train and they'll be hooked.  The Skyway can work in time, just not this present time.

I'm one of the few who believe people in Jacksonville are no different from those in most of America, when it comes to mass transit.  The main problem I see is that Jax has poor transit service.  While you'll never get most people to use transit, if the service was efficient and reliable, ridership numbers would increase from their present state.

That's why I like the skyway and expansion idea. It is reliable and efficient. I think the overall impression of the skyway is that it is clean. IMO the general consensus thinks that buses are dirty, unreliable and
inefficient... which is partly true.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2009, 03:57:34 PM
Stjr, so what is your response to 78% of the majority of the votes suggesting expansion at some point in the future?

The now 75% of this very unscientific straw poll say expand only after all other rail mass transit.

Since rail mass transit won't be accomplished anytime soon, as you well know, that's almost akin to saying the $ky-high-way should never be done.  Check in again in another 10 years as that, to me, is the minimum, at Jax's usual speeds on these matters, I would predict a physical rail mass transit system actually being finished.

This has been one point I have been driving home.  Rail mass transit needs are the priority to be focused on without any distractions from discussing the expansion of the $ky-high-way!  Too many people on MJ think that one has no impact on the other and they can have their cake and eat it to.  Not gonna happen.  So, let's stop talking about the $ky-high-way for now, and laser in on the rail mass transit.  You and Ock know better than anyone what an accomplishment that would be in itself.

[EDIT: I clairified some of the wording for Shwaz. And "laser" is the correct spelling.]

QuoteThe now 75% of this very unscientific straw poll say expand only after all other rail mass transit.

Since that won't be accomplished anytime soon, as you well know, that's almost akin to saying it should never be done.

QuoteSo, let's stop talking about the $ky-high-way for now, and laser in on the rail mass transit.

So "lazer in" on something that may never happen or at least not in the next 10 years?

Quote from: stjr on April 08, 2009, 04:50:32 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2009, 03:57:34 PM
Stjr, so what is your response to 78% of the majority of the votes suggesting expansion at some point in the future?

The now 75% of this very unscientific straw poll say expand only after all other rail mass transit.

Since rail mass transit won't be accomplished anytime soon, as you well know, that's almost akin to saying the $ky-high-way should never be done.  Check in again in another 10 years as that, to me, is the minimum, at Jax's usual speeds on these matters, I would predict a physical rail mass transit system actually being finished.

This has been one point I have been driving home.

This is the flaw in the survey.  As shown by the example in my original post, there are other logical options but they were not available for selection in the unscientific straw poll.  Without making these options available, the survey loses credibility.

Quote from: stjr on April 08, 2009, 12:15:42 AM
Ock, there is no bias.  I got you covered.  Even though I said only one answer, you picked two:

(1)  Let's go for DOUBLE OR NOTHING.  I don't give a damn about history or proven failure.  Let' double our bet by expanding the system and hope people chose it over other transportation options that are better and cheaper  and

(2) Grow this monster!  Expand it because I believe those same experts who screwed the original projections up by 90%.  They can't possibly be wrong twice!  I have faith.

See...this is where the fun begins.  Pick your poison  ;)

Thanks for participating.

P.S. Ock, I took my cue from your railroad survey (which I dutifully completed sans the $ky-high-way question!)  I thought your questions led the survey taker right to where you wanted to take them.  Don't I get an A+ for learning the craft?

Ock:

Quoteso guess what Jacksonville... I'm retired, I don't need YOU, and I'm here to see to RAIL TRANSIT even if it is over my dead body.

Ock and Lake, I think you guys are doing a great job championing rail.  I understand your sentiments about the $ky-high-way but still think you are missing the political realities:  The public is likely to only stomach one fixed mass transit project at a time.  That's why I say pick your poison.  If you can only save one option, what will it be?

My choice is suburban rail as I think this will have the greatest impact on Jax for the $$$.  Next, before more rail, would probably be more buses (but not BRT- just more routes and frequency).  Then, street cars.  The $ky-high-way would be so low on my list that I don't see the City ever getting to it in my lifetime (thank goodness, from my perspective) or Ock's given that absolutely nothing is close to reality with any of these options at the current time.

Ock, I want you to achieve your vision but believe you are overestimating the political capacity to handle more than one option.  I think I am doing you and Lake a favor to point this out.  The $ky-high-way is a joke among the public at large (MJ posters notwithstanding) and has set back, politically, fixed rail in the community by at least a couple of decades.

Should the $ky-high-way jump to the front of the line AGAIN, you will one day see your rail transit... unfortunately, over your dead body as you stated.  Again, if only one choice be it, what will it be?[/color]

Quote from: stjr on April 08, 2009, 10:48:21 PM
Ock:

Quoteso guess what Jacksonville... I'm retired, I don't need YOU, and I'm here to see to RAIL TRANSIT even if it is over my dead body.

Ock and Lake, I think you guys are doing a great job championing rail.  I understand your sentiments about the $ky-high-way but still think you are missing the political realities:  The public is likely to only stomach one fixed mass transit project at a time.  That's why I say pick your poison.  If you can only save one option, what will it be?

Actually, my opinion on the skyway falls somewhere in the middle of your positions.  I don't endorse extending the skyway into a 10 mile system, as Ock suggested.  I also don't think it makes sense to immediately extend it's length without developing portions of other cost efficient modes first.  However, I also don't think its smart to develop commuter rail to Yulee before building a skyway station at the O&M facility or incorporating the skyway into the JTC, assuming a TOD pops up there.  Heck, depending on what corridor is developed, it could make sense to do some streetcar, commuter rail, extend the skyway and then add more streetcar and commuter rail.  However, this was not an option.  Developing an integrated transit system isn't an either or situation.  It depends on several factors that I believe should be evaluated on an individual/cost feasibility basis.  That's my position.

QuoteMy choice is suburban rail as I think this will have the greatest impact on Jax for the $$$.  Next, before more rail, would probably be more buses (but not BRT- just more routes and frequency).  Then, street cars.  The $ky-high-way would be so low on my list that I don't see the City ever getting to it in my lifetime (thank goodness, from my perspective) or Ock's given that absolutely nothing is close to reality with any of these options at the current time.

My position is that, with rail, the most important thing is providing residents with efficient service between various destinations.  With that said, to me, its not about suburban rail vs. streetcar, Amtrak or the skyway.  Its about developing a master plan and jumping on opportunities when they present themselves.  In our current situation, my priorities would be:

1. Amtrak with satellite stations

They have federal money that will help reduce the capital cost of commuter rail.  They also already have the ability to operate on freight railroads.  The satellite stations also allow TOD and daily commuting opportunities between DT, Clay and St. Johns Counties.

2. Streetcar - Riverside to Springfield

We already have the money needed to construct and operate this segment for a couple of decades.  We also don't have to purchase or lease ROW or negotiate with CSX, FEC or NS to get a starter segment up and running.  Most importantly, it connects urban neighborhoods, entertainment and major employment centers with DT and the existing skyway.  If we want rail with local money, this is the quickest mode to get underway with the highest TOD stimulation potential.

3. Commuter Rail -CSX A/S-Line

Only if the Orlando Sunrail deal goes through.  The reduction of freight traffic and Clay's congestion issues make it a natural.  If the Sunrail deal fails, then the S-Line/Northside route (to the airport, not Yulee), since St. Augustine would already be connected by Amtrak.  However, since these corridors cost more than $100 million, it may be a decade or so before federal assistance comes online.  This is why I'd move forward with a streetcar starter first.  If made a priority, it could be operational in less than two years.

4. Skyway

It all depends on what you consider expansion, it's cost feasibility and potential to generate higher ridership.  For example, if a major development rises on the Brooklyn Park site, I'd endorse adding a skyway station there immediately, regardless of what's going on with Amtrak, commuter rail or the streetcar.  Now if you're taking about extending it to Shands, I'd favor canning that option and going with the commuter rail line through the Northside instead.

5. Buses

Although essential, they are not worth talking about.  Imo, as rail comes online, the existing bus system should be gradually revised to feed rail corridors with riders.  In short, rail becomes the transit spine and the existing bus fleet complements it.

QuoteOck, I want you to achieve your vision but believe you are overestimating the political capacity to handle more than one option.  I think I am doing you and Lake a favor to point this out.  The $ky-high-way is a joke among the public at large (MJ posters notwithstanding) and has set back, politically, fixed rail in the community by at least a couple of decades.

You're not doing me a favor, showing me anything or changing my opinion on the possibility of extending the skyway (when and if it makes sense to do so).  With me, I'll continue to consider all options on a case-by-case basis.

Lake:

QuoteI'll continue to consider all options on a case-by-case basis.

Lake, you are thinking "flexibly" and allowing for "multitasking."  That's great if it can be done.  But, I don't think those concepts exist in the vocabulary of the decision makers of government funding or will be tolerated by the political process.  It takes long lead times to muster support and funding approval of these things and the participants work with straight jackets wrapped around their brains (just read Ock's post about his 29 years worth of experiences above).  Getting the process to adjust as nimbly as your vision would require to be successful doesn't seem feasible to me.

That brings me back to the world of reality.  If you wanted to start the process today to secure funding for a project years down the road knowing once you started locking in support for said project it would be tough to back away from it and chase another option, after careful and responsible thinking, what one project would you commit to now and begin work on?

Amtrak
Commuter Rail
Buses
Street Car
$ky-high-way

I assume you mean implementation because there's no reason we can do the necessary studies for multiple modes at once, which is already being done.  I also don't see a big fuss being raised if an extra skyway station was constructed at the existing O&M center, assuming a massive development goes in next door.  I'd probably argue that it would not be an extenstion since the skyway track is already in place.  Nevertheless, under your terms, I'd immediately tackle two, while moving another forward in the process for federal funding qualification.

1. Amtrak - my highest priority since there is already a battle for where they will spend their new found funding.  However, all we need to do locally is lobby (ex. resolution letters, public support, etc.) the state to fight for a piece of the pie.

2. Streetcar starter - we already have the money (BJP transit funds), right-of-way (existing streets), decent density (DT, Springfield, Riverside) and destinations (DT, Five Points, Riverside Av).

3. Commuter rail - studies necessary for federal funding can continue while we pursue Amtrak and implement a locally funded streetcar starter at the same time.  Its being done in our peer cities so it can be done in Jacksonville.

 

Quote from: stjr on April 08, 2009, 10:48:21 PM
Again, if only one choice be it, what will it be?[/b]

Ha! Nice attempt at disguising the purpose of your poll. But we all know you just wanted to let off some steam with your hatred of the $$kyway$$$ (sic :))

Had you really wanted to know what the next step would be, you would have offered far less satirical options and/or you would have read all the other threads where Lake and Ock, among others, have discussed ad nauseum what they believe the priorities for mass transit should be. ie, after reading this thread I've seen nothing new that I haven't seen before (from Ock, Lake, or yourself).

You have every right to start whatever discussions you want so I'm in no way discouraging you from doing so, but just being real. Your intent never was to find out what our one and only choice would be...

This should make stjr happy...

I was just checking out ridership numbers of various transit systems and the Skyway is only averaging 1,700 riders a day.  This is a significant decrease from the 3,000/day average of a couple of years ago.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership

Quote from: thelakelander on April 09, 2009, 06:56:33 PM
This should make stjr happy...

I was just checking out ridership numbers of various transit systems and the Skyway is only averaging 1,700 riders a day.  This is a significant decrease from the 3,000/day average of a couple of years ago.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_American_rapid_transit_systems_by_ridership

Thanks, Lake.  JTA's $ky-high-way is last in absolute riders, last in riders per mile, and almost in a dead heat for last in riders per capita.  No matter how you measure it, an abysmal failure.  And, with all those "new residences downtown", ridership has dropped almost in half!  Per my motto, where is the COMMON SENSE!

This makes me FRUSTRATED, not happy.  That my taxpayer $$ are currently paying for this mess, likely will be paying for it the rest of my life, and may be paying even more for it if the expansion proponents get their way.  People will passionately push for millions for this turkey, but can't find any $$$ for the most underfunded educational systems in the United States!!! ???

Quote
Rank/System/Largest city served/Weekday ridership[footnote reference] /Date/Route miles[footnote reference]/Year opened    
1 New York City Subway New York City 7,880,000 [2] 2008 Q4 656 [3] 1868
2 Mexico City Metro Mexico City 4,400,000 1993 110 [4] 1969
3 Montreal Metro Montreal 987,000 [5] 2008 Q2 40.59[6] 1966
4 Toronto Subway* Toronto 976,500 [7] 2008 Q4 38 [8] 1954
5 Metrorail Washington, D.C. 944,400 [2] 2008 Q4 106.3[9] 1976
6 Chicago 'L' Chicago 640,700[2] 2008 Q4 136.7[10] 1892
7 Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (or "T")* Boston 485,800[2] 2008 Q4 65.5[11] 1897
8 BART San Francisco 379,400[2] 2008 Q4 104[12] 1972
9 SEPTA* Philadelphia 318,000[2] 2008 Q4 25[13] 1907
10 Vancouver SkyTrain Vancouver 271,000 2007 31[14] 1985
11 MARTA Atlanta 269,700[2] 2008 Q4 47.6[15] 1979
12 PATH New York City 250,400[2] 2008 Q4 13.8[16] 1908
13 Metro Rail* Los Angeles 139,700[2] 2008 Q4 17.4[17] 1990
14 Metrorail Miami 63,800[2] 2008 Q4 22[18] 1984
15 Baltimore Metro Subway* Baltimore 53,300[2] 2008 Q4 15.5[19] 1983
16 PATCO Speedline Philadelphia 36,600[2] 2008 Q4 14.2[20] 1936
17 Tren Urbano San Juan 36,800[2] 2008 Q4 10.7[21] 2004
18 RTA Rapid Transit* Cleveland 29,800[22] Third quarter of 2007 19[23] 1955
19 Staten Island Railway New York City 15,900[2] 2008 Q4 14[24] 1971
20 Detroit People Mover Detroit 4,300[2] 2008 Q4 2.9[25] 1987
21 JTA Skyway Jacksonville 1,700[2] 2008 Q4 2.5[26] 2000

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/RobertsFIRSTbirthday003.jpg)
THIS IS WHAT WE PLANNED FOR...
(http://www.makezine.com/images/makerfaire_2006/projects/215_monorail.JPG)
...AND THIS IS WHAT WE GOT! (A classic case of "I TOLD YOU SO!!")

stjr, What I said was at 10.5 miles, the Skyway costs per mile fall to the same neighborhood as LRT and BRT Quickway. This would have to make some distant future allowance for some revival of one of the original Skyway concepts. Hospital car shuttles. Yes, they were planned but never built. The COJ and I believe it was at the time "University Hospital", "St. Vincents", "Baptist" and "Memorial", all wanted lines into their facilities, and they wanted to pioneer a Skyway Ambulance for PT transport. Fact is had they built such a system, the passenger load would have been excellent. Somewhere out in these type of schemes lay the 10.5 miles. Frankly all I could imagine right now is Atlantic at the west side of the FEC, Stadium, Blue Cross, and maybe Shand's. More like 5 new miles.

There are several groups of amusement park suppliers which claim they can build the guideways for the neighborhood of $15 Million a mile, if so we'd be crazy NOT to check them out.

I believe Lake and I are not close, we are on the same page... I'm for having an up to date, workable plan to move on TOMORROW, for AMTRAK, STREETCAR, COMMUTER RAIL, SKYWAY, RIVER TAXI, BRT, BUS, CANOE, CAMEL, PACK MULE ETC... Whenever an OBAMA-MICA-BROWN opportunity crops up, we could snap into action and achieve things only imagined in the mind of a Walt Disney.  

(http://www.green-wheels.org/files/u1/agate-station-vehicle-appro.jpg)
Imagine Arlington Expressway? Atlantic? Beach? San Jose? ELECTRIC TROLLEY BUS?

As it is, they came with an open checkbook and JTA has NOTHING DONE, City Hall? "Uh I think we can build a street or two... DUH!" Lake, Stephendare and Myself have done everything short of storming the JTA offices and physically throwing some folks on the street in a takeover. For better or worse, I think we're still largely ignored. It's that old Jaxson expression, "Don't confuse us with facts." Though City Hall seems much more of a lost cause then does JTA, at least JTA says they WANT to get it right. We'd love to be there and help make things happen, but right now that doesn't look highly likely.

So really Lake and I probably see eye to eye on this:

Amtrak is a given, easy take, JUST DO IT! Use a temporary station downtown until the Terminal is rebuilt.
Streetcar is something we could have already done ourselves.  


http://www.youtube.com/v/hJ1EgJLwQVY&hl
This is what JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL SHOULD LOOK LIKE...Note this is only 1/3 the size of our Terminal in 1974...And FDOT/JTA think 3 tracks is enough? God Help Us!

Transportation Center at JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL - must wait for the convention center to leave.
Commuter Rail should be done AFTER Amtrak.

Skyway the HILTON STATION should already be under construction with GRANTS, the rest can wait for federal fixed guideway dollars. Lose the fares, lease the stations.

Water Taxi, could be done tomorrow, get original, dinner boats-restaurant leases, overnight lines, tourist boats, and Oh by the way, with all these creative franchises we'd have commuter boats too!
Bus, tighten the route structure, shorten the headways, create trunk lines with feeders.
BRT- HELL YES, but not a half ass, 5 block long project that restricts any transit but JTA.  

OCKLAWAHA

It should at least be expanded to the Stadium.

FYI, below is more $ky-high-way info I found to help the undecided to decide their poll choice above!  Note, that, OPERATIONALLY, the revenue is LESS THAN 10% of expenses causing it lose OVER $4 million EVERY YEAR. And, in just 8 years as a COMPLETE system, it has lost over $34 million of our LOCAL tax dollars.  How valuable would that be to our schools, police, fire, streets, parks, etc.?

First Coast News, July 31, 2008 at: http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/news-article.aspx?storyid=115238

QuoteSkyway Through Jacksonville Losing Millions

JACKSONVILLE, FL -- The Jacksonville Transportation Authority has operated the Skyway in full service since 2000.

But did you know that it actually loses millions of dollars each year?

The JTA says most transportation systems lose money and they are standing by the futuristic Skyway.

It's the closest thing we have to Disney's famed Monorail, making eight stops in parts of downtown Jacksonville and the Southbank.

"I can ride to work each day, pay $.50. It's an incredible savings," says rider James Pontal.

But some riders say it certainly isn't a deal for taxpayers.

"Transit by its nature is never a break-even or money-making venture," JTA spokesman Mike Miller says.

Since 2000, the Skyway has lost $34,489,200.

Just last year, the Skyway collected $336,188 from passengers.

But running the Skyway cost $4,615,917, a one-year deficit of $4,279,729.

Mike Miller says monthly parking fees make up some money, but even with that extra money, the Skyway still would not generate enough revenue to make up for the cost.

"If you're not even breaking even, if you're losing money, there's no reason to keep it going," says rider Julie Williams.

But the JTA says it does take traffic off the streets. A new station near Riverside is even in the works.

"The Skyway is a very important part of the overall mobility program that we have for Jacksonville. ... No, we are not contemplating at all closing down the skyway," Miller says.

No news here stjr, nothing new, nothing shocking. Mike Miller is correct, except for a rare example (many in Japan) there isn't a profitable public transit project anywhere. Just like you can't justify the expenditures on Beach Blvd, or Dunn Avenue, it's not a "LOSS" it IS an investment in our future. Like roadways some get dense and become congested but if they can't be expanded (Such as in a downtown area during a big game) then we Must have an alternative. The national numbers for ALL transit systems is the farebox only recovers 25% of the expense, and drivers account for 75% of the cost of operations. The Skyway doesn't have drivers, and even if expanded to Orange Park and South Georgia, it still wouldn't. So again by means of some small expansions we actually bring down the cost of our investment per mile.

I don't like the smell of sulfur or breathing carbon monoxide, the Skyway is electric; even with it's imagined problems that still beats a bus or a highway full of parked cars.  

OCKLAWAHA

Any idea how much money streets, libraries, parks and schools lost over the same period?  I'm not saying the skyway doesn't have its problems (Ex. the turnstiles are broken half of the time), but it would be interesting to see how it's numbers compare with other public offerings.

Quote from: wwanderlust on April 10, 2009, 03:57:40 PM
Shocker: if it were expanded to areas where people lived, people would USE IT.

I live near Five Points. If we had a stop nearby, I wouldn't hesitate to hop the Skyway to downtown or San Marco or anywhere else it went (if expanded).

With it's current route, it's worthless. Expanded, it can be of great value to the city.

Wanderlust, no problem.  Just check the box for the answer below and maybe the government genies will grant your wish.  But, as with all magic lamps, be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.

"I would love that elevated concrete elephant in my neighborhood.  It would do wonders beautifying it and fit in with all that traditional architecture.  Screw the purists and historic preservationists.  What do they know?"

[I guess you expect the merchants of 5 Points would be happy to have their customers go somewhere else for two or more years (as happened Downtown) while Park Street is torn up. If any businesses survive (very few did Downtown), they will surely be happy to have this two story concrete monster be a permanent addition down the middle of Park Street.  That should really improve the ambiance of 5 Points.  And, I suppose your residential neighbors will feel the $ky-high-way will fit right in with the neighborhood architecture.  Kind of like I-95 replacing Riverside Avenue?  P.S. There is that little issue too of getting under I-95.  Maybe someone here knows if the bridge is high enough to clear it.] ;D

[One other note:  Which block of 5 Points to you want to level to make way for the station? and any needed parking or other approaches for buses, taxis, or drop offs?]

To get it under I-95, you could drop it down to grade, which would also cut down on construction costs.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6970-p1150892.JPG)
Skyway cars at grade.  FYI,  while cheaper, extensive at-grade lengths would eliminate several street intersections.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6982-p1060858.JPG)
The Indianapolis Clarian Peoplemover under an expressway with lower height clearance than the Fuller Warren.

However, RAP would tar and feather anyone suggesting it be extended into the historic district.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 10, 2009, 06:19:00 PM
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6982-p1060858.JPG)
The Indianapolis Clarian Peoplemover under an expressway with lower height clearance than the Fuller Warren.

However, RAP would tar and feather anyone suggesting it be extended into the historic district.

Agreed, I can't imagine the Skyway being welcomed into any preservation area. Riverside Avenue would be the only likely corridor for the Skyway and the end point terminal, either at Blue Cross or Francis Lytle.

Likewise, San Marco, I can't see it flying over the lions... Can you imagine what a war we would have over that? Get it west of the FEC railroad and take it south to Atlantic, where it could meet buses, streetcars, trolley bus or Commuter Rail. Then again, maybe blowing it through San Marco would put us on the historical map - after all Japan's Civil War lasted 700 years!

Shand's, I don't see any problem with taking it up through FCCJ, and to the edge of Klutho Park. From this point on north, it would almost have to ride low along Hogans Creek at an elevation just high enough to keep crazies from frying themselves on the 3RD rail. So you creep along the west side of Hogans Creek at 10' elevation then raise up to clear streets.

If the Shand's line tied into the Commuter Rail Station at Boulevard, and was completed to the Stadium/Randolph area, it would create a unique traffic route, both feeding and being fed by the Rail at Shand's.  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on April 09, 2009, 07:11:56 PM
Thanks, Lake.  JTA's $ky-high-way is last in absolute riders, last in riders per mile, and almost in a dead heat for last in riders per capita.  No matter how you measure it, an abysmal failure.  And, with all those "new residences downtown", ridership has dropped almost in half!  Per my motto, where is the COMMON SENSE!

This makes me FRUSTRATED, not happy.  That my taxpayer $$ are currently paying for this mess, likely will be paying for it the rest of my life, and may be paying even more for it if the expansion proponents get their way.  People will passionately push for millions for this turkey, but can't find any $$$ for the most underfunded educational systems in the United States!!! ???

Quote
Rank/System/Largest city served/Weekday ridership[footnote reference] /Date/Route miles[footnote reference]/Year opened   
1 New York City Subway New York City 7,880,000 [2] 2008 Q4 656 [3] 1868
2 Mexico City Metro Mexico City 4,400,000 1993 110 [4] 1969
3 Montreal Metro Montreal 987,000 [5] 2008 Q2 40.59[6] 1966
4 Toronto Subway* Toronto 976,500 [7] 2008 Q4 38 [8] 1954
5 Metrorail Washington, D.C. 944,400 [2] 2008 Q4 106.3[9] 1976
6 Chicago 'L' Chicago 640,700[2] 2008 Q4 136.7[10] 1892
7 Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (or "T")* Boston 485,800[2] 2008 Q4 65.5[11] 1897
8 BART San Francisco 379,400[2] 2008 Q4 104[12] 1972
9 SEPTA* Philadelphia 318,000[2] 2008 Q4 25[13] 1907
10 Vancouver SkyTrain Vancouver 271,000 2007 31[14] 1985
11 MARTA Atlanta 269,700[2] 2008 Q4 47.6[15] 1979
12 PATH New York City 250,400[2] 2008 Q4 13.8[16] 1908
13 Metro Rail* Los Angeles 139,700[2] 2008 Q4 17.4[17] 1990
14 Metrorail Miami 63,800[2] 2008 Q4 22[18] 1984
15 Baltimore Metro Subway* Baltimore 53,300[2] 2008 Q4 15.5[19] 1983
16 PATCO Speedline Philadelphia 36,600[2] 2008 Q4 14.2[20] 1936
17 Tren Urbano San Juan 36,800[2] 2008 Q4 10.7[21] 2004
18 RTA Rapid Transit* Cleveland 29,800[22] Third quarter of 2007 19[23] 1955
19 Staten Island Railway New York City 15,900[2] 2008 Q4 14[24] 1971
20 Detroit People Mover Detroit 4,300[2] 2008 Q4 2.9[25] 1987
21 JTA Skyway Jacksonville 1,700[2] 2008 Q4 2.5[26] 2000

Maybe this list would be of some value if it was a comparison of similar systems....the only one on here remotely similar is Detroit....but what about the people movers in Miami, Indy, or Moirgantown, WV....the Skyway might still be last but at least then it would mean something!

Fall 2008 APM Count

Systems + Ridership in thousands pax/day

28,000 Miami Metromover
20,000 Morgantown PRT, WV
  3,000 Detroit DPM, MI
  2,000 Jacksonville Skyway
  1,000 ClarHealth Indianapolis

link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

If the FEDS are dumb enough to finance it, keep adding to the rail that goes nowhere. People in DC are idiots!

Lake did your source have the following systems in it:

Duke University
Old Dominion
Huntsville Hospital
NC Centennial Campus (don't know if it's opened yet)
Las Colinas

Also look at the AMAZING headways on most of the DPM systems and compaire them with us. Every 15 seconds at Morgantown! Every 30-45 seconds on others. Ours is every what? Sometimes 15 minutes.

By the Way, DETROIT was probably the best system built because it is a standard gauge electric induction RAILROAD elevated above the streets. Steel Wheel on Steel Rails. Stations have by-pass tracks, and frankly it could be converted to modern streetcar almost as easy as flipping a switch.

Several of the other cities are using US as an example and converting their systems to true Monorail. Except for the "DISNEY FANTASY FACTOR" I really don't see monorails ever approaching the abilitys of steel rail systems. The only benefit is they can fly. For those that think monorails will someday whisk folks from city to city.... Uh....Hate to burst your bubble, but Monorails pre-date steel railroads by a number of years! Don't you think if they were so great, we would have had the Golden Beam rather then the Golden Spike?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 11, 2009, 12:43:50 AM

Except for the "DISNEY FANTASY FACTOR" I really don't see monorails ever approaching the abilitys of steel rail systems. The only benefit is they can fly. For those that think monorails will someday whisk folks from city to city.... Uh....Hate to burst your bubble, but Monorails pre-date steel railroads by a number of years! Don't you think if they were so great, we would have had the Golden Beam rather then the Golden Spike?

Another issue with the $ky-high-way, Ock?  Should we check this answer?:

"I can't afford Disney so let me have this ride instead.  It's worth hundreds of millions to carry me to dinner or my once a year visit to the stadium.  I don't care what it costs."  ;)

Quote from: thelakelander on April 10, 2009, 10:02:55 PM
Fall 2008 APM Count

Systems + Ridership in thousands pax/day

28,000 Miami Metromover
20,000 Morgantown PRT, WV
  3,000 Detroit DPM, MI
  2,000 Jacksonville Skyway
  1,000 ClarHealth Indianapolis

link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

Lake, the Indianapolis system is a lot smaller in scope than ours per below.  But what is interesting, is that it cost so much less to build and operate than ours yet appears similar in design and capacity.  What gives?

As to the other systems you list, it just shows how far we have to go.  Really, does anyone see 10x (and that may still be a failure feasibility-wise) the current 1,700 riders we have in our lifetimes?  even with an expansion dreamed of by some?

(http://www.advancedtransit.org/docgfx/1061_prt-cos6.jpg)

QuoteThe Clarian People Mover is America's first privately owned transit system to operate over city streets.  Each vehicle can seat 8 and stand another 19.  A train-set includes 3 vehicles for a total of 81 people.  Each fully automated trainset will travel at up to 30 mph on rubber wheels riding on pre-stressed concrete guideways.  Empty weight of each trainset is 45,000 pounds. Even though a 1700" section of an 18" gas main had to be moved laterally 5 feet, the overall cost of the system was only $40M.  The Clarion People Mover is 14,800 feet long (7,400-foot long two-way guideway), or about $14.2m per one-way mile.  Operating costs are estimated at $900K per year (2.25% of construction cost).  The project broke ground in May of 2001, and the superstructure was completely erected by mid-2002, right on schedule.  The system was commissioned in the Spring of 2003.  System capacity is 1800 riders per hour with an expected 500,000 riders per year.

http://www.advancedtransit.org/doc.aspx?id=1061

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 11, 2009, 12:43:50 AM
Lake did your source have the following systems in it:

Duke University
Old Dominion
Huntsville Hospital
NC Centennial Campus (don't know if it's opened yet)
Las Colinas

Its got a ton of systems from across the world on it.  Just click on the link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

Stjr, the Indy system is cheaper because ours is vastly overbuilt.  If expansion were to take place here, there is no reason it could not be built as cheap as the Indy system.

Btw, I can see 10x the ridership IF there were regional rail feeding a skyway that served the stadium, Riverside Avenue (north of I-95) and San Marco (across the railroad tracks).  Miami's Metromover averages almost 30,000 riders a day.  This is mainly a result of Metrorail and Tri-Rail feeding it with riders from the burbs and other dense areas of South Florida.  Metromover fills up pretty quick when Miami Heat games are taking place.  I assume the skyway would see the same during Jags games, special events and Metropolitan Park feastivals.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 12:24:42 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 11, 2009, 12:43:50 AM
Lake did your source have the following systems in it:

Duke University
Old Dominion
Huntsville Hospital
NC Centennial Campus (don't know if it's opened yet)
Las Colinas

Its got a ton of systems from across the world on it.  Just click on the link: http://airfront.us/PDFs/Count08.pdf

With the exception of the Detroit People Mover, which is just as disastrous as ours (and you still say the concept works?), our "competition" for least riders are mostly zoos and hospitals!  I bet if you further examined all these systems, the apples to apples gap in our traffic with systems having comparable expectations would be a chasm the size of the Grand Canyon.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 12:30:13 AM
Btw, I can see 10x the ridership IF there were regional rail feeding a skyway that served the stadium, Riverside Avenue (north of I-95) and San Marco (across the railroad tracks).  Miami's Metromover averages almost 30,000 riders a day.  This is mainly a result of Metrorail and Tri-Rail feeding it with riders from the burbs and other dense areas of South Florida.  Metromover fills up pretty quick when Miami Heat games are taking place.  I assume the skyway would see the same during Jags games, special events and Metropolitan Park feastivals.

Lake, there is plenty of parking in the sports area for Metro Park, the Arena, and the Baseball Grounds.  That just leaves the Jags.  We are talking 10 games a year if they sell out.  Add Fla-Ga, the Gator Bowl, and a couple of exhibition or other stadium events.  At best, 20 days of the year.  For this, we would build the $ky-high-way?  Really?  Sell that to the taxpayers after all the gifts we gave building the stadium and enhancing it.  Also, how many people per hour can the $ky-high-way move to the stadium working its little heart out?  Would that make a dent in the traffic to move?

As to interconnectivity, why don't we see the building of other links before consdering expanding the $ky-high-way?  I don't believe those links are arriving anytime soon so the "expanded" system you advocate could be sitting for a very long time waiting for that undelivered traffic.  That's just more unproductive investments and deeper operating losses.

Again, I think proponents are really stretching to justify expansions in any direction.

I never said the concept "works".  I said I could see ridership increasing as much as 10x if it had regional rail feeding riders into it, along with short expansions to major destination points.  I'm certainly not the guy to argue peoplemover systems over forms of rail like streetcars, light and commuter rail.  For the money spent to construct the skyway, we could have had light rail from DT to the airport for the same cost/mile.

Quote from: stjr on April 12, 2009, 12:45:49 AM
Lake, there is plenty of parking in the sports area for Metro Park, the Arena, and the Baseball Grounds.  That just leaves the Jags.  We are talking 10 games a year if they sell out.  Add Fla-Ga, the Gator Bowl, and a couple of exhibition or other stadium events.  At best, 20 days of the year.

Assuming regional rail was in place, many traveling from areas like Clay, St. Johns and the Southside would elect to take a train into the area to avoid congestion.  Also, with rail, it would also be quite possible for the city to sell off most of this under utilized land for transit oriented development.  In addition to this, a line down Bay would also attract those accessing the Hyatt, the entertainment district, Florida Theater, Berkman, the existing courthouse site, the Shipyards, Maxwell Coffee, the police department and the jail.  While the last stop may not be a popular everyday destination, the rest of the line would serve a decent number of existing destinations in the Northbank.  Again I'm not saying immediate expansion is the way to go, because I can also make an argument for extending a streetcar line into the area.  However, I can see the benefit of an extension if regional rail is in place to feed riders into the system.

QuoteFor this, we would build the $ky-high-way?  Really?  Sell that to the taxpayers after all the gifts we gave building the stadium and enhancing it.  Also, how many people per hour can the $ky-high-way move to the stadium working its little heart out?  Would that make a dent in the traffic to move?

From what I know, it is designed for additional cars, plus its double tracked.  If ridership increases, adding more cars would seem to be a good move.  As for selling it, if you have a regional system that connects DT with the burbs, but misses the stadium by a mile, it would probably sell itself in the long run.

QuoteAs to interconnectivity, why don't we see the building of other links before considering expanding the $ky-high-way?  I don't believe those links are arriving anytime soon so the "expanded" system you advocate could be sitting for a very long time waiting for that undelivered traffic.  That's just more unproductive investments and deeper operating losses.

I don't know why I keep getting painted as someone who wants to expand the skyway hell or high water. I've always been in favor of adding Amtrak, streetcar and commuter corridors first, before seriously worrying about expanding the skyway's length. 

QuoteAgain, I think proponents are really stretching to justify expansions in any direction.[/b]

I don't think I'm stretching in believing that ridership would increase if it were properly integrated into a regional transit plan that feeds it with riders.

Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2009, 12:49:21 AM
I never said the concept "works".  I said I could see ridership increasing as much as 10x if it had regional rail feeding riders into it, along with short expansions to major destination points.  I'm certainly not the guy to argue peoplemover systems over forms of rail like streetcars, light and commuter rail.  For the money spent to construct the skyway, we could have had light rail from DT to the airport for the same cost/mile.

Lake, if the $ky-high-way concept doesn't "work", then why waste time talking expanding it?  Likewise, if, as we both agree, for the money spent, other forms of rail are superior, why don't we focus on prioritizing these and avoiding the $ky-high-way as an unnecessary distraction?   I know I am coming full circle here but my point is to show that all "roads" [rails?] lead back to this same point!  This is where I say we should proceed forward from.

I talk about it because you guys keep bringing it up.  However, if you look in our transit section, you will see that 99% of the transit articles I've written, focus on commuter rail, streetcars and Amtrak.  The major difference in opinion we have is that you're ready to label it a complete failure and abandon it.  On the other hand, I'd like to see what happens with it, after additional rail corridors (streetcars, a commuter rail line or two, etc.) are added into the mix.  My hunch is that ridership will improve and that it will become an integral part of the transit mix.

I think the real benefit of a Sports Complex leg is during the week to use all that parking for people working downtown.  It would allow using the massive acreage downtown devoted to surface parking to office/retail uses - which in turn would generate more demand.  Of course, in today's economy, that isn't going to happen soon - but the economy will turn around.

QuoteOnly expand it if it comes after all other rail mass transit including street cars, light rail, and suburban rail.

The above is the current leader in our "poll".  If you have an opinion, feel free to cast your vote.  Just go to the beginning of this thread.

Question:  In what year does anyone think "all other rail mass transit" might be at a point to support the expansion proponents' desire for a sufficiently connected system?

I take it the poll creator has serious issues with the Skyway.

Quote from: JaxNole on April 18, 2009, 01:30:02 AM
I take it the poll creator has serious issues with the Skyway.

How'd ya' guess?!!  ;D  Now, did you "pick your poison" and vote? ::)

These data were reported from an earlier post:
7 Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority (or "T")*
Boston
485,800[2]
2008 Q4
65.5[11]
1897

From the MBTA's website http://mbta.com/uploadedFiles/About_the_T/Financials/FY2008%20MBTA%20Audited%20Financials.pdf (http://mbta.com/uploadedFiles/About_the_T/Financials/FY2008%20MBTA%20Audited%20Financials.pdf)> Investor Relations > Audited Financial Statements 2008, this successful mass transit authority reports the following figures:

Pg. 5
Total operating expenses     $1,553,787,000 ($240,900,000 increase over year ended June 30, 2007)
Operating loss                    $1,064,349,000 ($183,084,000 increase over above stated time period)

Pg. 6
Net cash used in operating activities   -$509,687,000

Boston's MBTA is quoted as having 65.5 route miles; Jacksonville 2.5.  This is a factor of 26.2.  With operating expenses of $4,615,917, extrapolating for 65.5 miles results in $120,937,025.

Based solely on these figures, it sounds like a bargain to me.   ;D

Jax, I get your drift.  Fun with numbers.

While it's cute to divide the mileage, I think others would join me in saying the divisor should be the passenger count, not the miles.  In this case, I think our $ky-high-way will live up to its billing splendidly!   :D  [Jax: Approx. $2,647/rider vs. Boston: $2,190/rider.]

P.S.  I wonder if Boston had an extraordinary charge to increase by so much over the prior year.  Check the footnotes for "Management's Discussion".

1.  I don't believe it's "cute" to divide the mileage.  I divided by mileage as one way to compare the Skyway/$ky-high-way to the list provided by the Wikipedia link.  Using ridership as you did is another methodology.  Either way, I don't think it's cute because...

2.  The list does not compare similar systems--not in technology, scale, etc....

3.  The First Coast News article you quoted focused on actual loss amounts, which I provided for MBTA.  Its passenger revenue accounts for approximately 28% of total operating expenses, a better percentage than the Skyway.

As for significant changes over FY 2007, MBTA struggles with ballooning expenses, (despite a 14% increase in passenger revenue) such as wages (+9.6%), "other postemployment benefits" (+175%) and depreciation and amortization (+21%).  Over the same time period, nearly $1B of depreciable property assets were added to the balance sheet.

At any rate, the T provides value to the hundreds of thousands of daily riders, many who do not own vehicles.  As difficult as it is to quantify quality of life, owning a car in the city of Boston introduces additional incurred expenses.  In addition to the car payment (if not paid outright) and steep insurance premiums, maintenance costs are high because of road conditions, corrosion from sanding during the snow season, among others.  Parking is scarce and so daily parking rates easily exceed $20.  Then there's a fee to even have a car in some municipalities (I'm talking to you, Brookline).

Overall, Boston provides multiple modes of transit: highway, bus, BRT (Silver Line), subway (T), light rail (above ground T), ferries, commuter rail (Purple Line), AMTRAK (regional and American high-speed acela).  All are efficient compared to the limited modes we have here. 

These modes did not come online at once.  And none operate profitably.  The intangible benefit is mobility for the people in and around Boston.

It looks like the First Quarter, 2009, American Public Transportation Report (APTA) reports that the $ky-high-way's (an AG - Automated Guideway) traffic dropped 9.49% from the first quarter of 2008 (and from 1,700 daily riders in the 4th quarter of 2009) to 1,600 daily riders, an almost 6% drop in just one quarter! These numbers compare to virtually no year over year change on JTA's total bus and trolley riders total and a drop of 1.17% in nationwide mass transit .

This appears to assure the $ky-high-way's rank as one of the least used major city transit systems in the U.S.  Congratulations.

And, Miami's $ky-high-way fell about 7.5% [to 25,700 daily riders] (other Miami transit was unchanged) and Detroit's $ky-high-way fell by 20.4% [to 6,700 daily riders](other Detroit transit was up 4.4%), year over year.

Looks like the mass transit public is voting in droves by NOT riding these systems in ever increasing numbers.  Anyone other than myself wish to explain the disproportionate dissatisfaction with  $ky-high-ways?

By the way, the daily riders in the so called "complete" and "interconnected" systems in Detroit and Miami are both well below the 20+ year old projections for the Jax $ky-high-way's currently completed system.  I don't see any hope for us to achieve sustainable numbers even if the system is expanded as advocated by proponents given the experiences of these much larger cities and and their already more fully developed systems.

Another nail in the $ky-high-way coffin?

See the report at:  http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q1_ridership_APTA.pdf

Why single out the skyway?  Didn't a drop in service occur over the last year, with service now ending at 7pm?  The fare was also raised to $0.50. We already know that its screwed up with poor service and transit system integration.  We also know the original estimates were cooked for the proposed larger system and the 2.5 mile system that was built.  You're bringing old news to the table.  My predicition for the rest of the year is a continuation of a drop in ridership numbers, with JTA proposing to eliminate Saturday service.  Short of shutting it down and repaying the government the $184 million it cost to construct it, the only way to turn these numbers around would be better integration and efficiency.

However, take a look at other mass transit systems during the same time period, the numbers are all over the place.  Here are a few:

Heavy Rail

+1.21% - Metrorail (Miami)
-2.15% - BART (San Francisco)
-6.99% - MARC (Baltimore)
-6.10% - MTA Staten Island Railway (New York)

Light Rail/Streetcar

+40.49% - TECO Streetcar (Tampa)
-12.81% - Boston
-7.58% - Kenosha Streetcar (Kenosha)
-2.89% - M-Line Streetcar (Dallas)
-3.04% - Metrorail (Houston)

Commuter Rail

+220.87% - Rail Runner (Albuquerque)
+10.98% - TRE (Dallas/Fort Worth)
-17.71% - Oceanside Sprinter (San Diego)
-9.95% - San Joaquin Reg. Rail (Stockton)
-6.59% - Metra (Chicago)
-6.54% - MTA Long Island Railroad (New York)

Trolley Bus

-20.67% - Silver Line (Boston)
-6.29% - Northern IN Commuter TD (Chesterton)

In the end, while we can point out situations that would cause the skyway's numbers to fall, its hard to tell why Boston's BRT dropped 20%, Miami's Metromover 7.46% or San Diego's Sprinter nearly 18%.  Its also hard to explain Tampa's streetcar shooting up 40% or the Rail Runner going up 220% (although I suspect this is due to the extension of the line to Santa Fe).

My guess, is that the DTs of Miami and Detroit took a huge hit with the fall of the real estate boom.  If there is less people coming into their downtown areas now, its possible that service would drop.  Its also possible there were service cuts or fare changes (for example, Metromover used to run 24/7 for free, which may not be the case now).  Without more information, its hard to see why the numbers range or draw any conclusions that are weighted in facts.

Btw, where are the numbers for the Indianapolis people mover, the Morgantown, WV system and the monorail in Las Vegas?  Also, what's going on in Ottawa?  The bus system (largely BRT) dropped 51% and their DMU rail system is down 47%.

The "standard" measurements are Passenger Miles per ______. One passenger, one mile, one direction. To evaluate any mass transit system on a level playing field, one could use Passenger Miles per gallon, per hour, day, week, month, or per hour per direction.

OCKLAWAHA

Reduction in numbers is pretty easy to explain fellows......no one is taking into the account the economy! You have to be working to pay to ride anything and raising rates just throttles things even more!

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 07, 2009, 09:44:27 PM
Reduction in numbers is pretty easy to explain fellows......no one is taking into the account the economy! You have to be working to pay to ride anything and raising rates just throttles things even more!

CS, that's why I went out of my way to show comparable numbers for the nation and other mass transit systems in the same cities as the cited $ky-high-ways.  None of them suffered the declines seen by the $ky-high-ways.  Thus, I don't think you can look to the economy to explain this.  Some might even argue that in a bad economy, more people could migrate to mass transits system as they are more affordable for users to utilize for travel.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 07, 2009, 11:04:38 AM
The "standard" measurements are Passenger Miles per ______. One passenger, one mile, one direction. To evaluate any mass transit system on a level playing field, one could use Passenger Miles per gallon, per hour, day, week, month, or per hour per direction.

OCKLAWAHA

Seems this would rank the $ky-high-ways even lower in usefulness as they have some of the fewest riders on the shortest systems.  That would likely give them very low passenger miles by almost any measure.  I just don't see any data anywhere that supports these systems over alternate ones.  Not in Jax, not elsewhere.

It just might, then again, calculating that at least half the riders probably cross the river, that's a run of about a mile. So considering system size, and potential destinations into that mix might not be too bad. The worse part of a side by side with the Skyway and Miami, Detroit, Morgantown, etc... Is that each of those systems were completeled as projected. Miami is even expanding theirs. So how would we adjust for 4 out of 8+ miles.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2009, 08:28:54 AM
Why single out the skyway?  Didn't a drop in service occur over the last year, with service now ending at 7pm?  The fare was also raised to $0.50. We already know that its screwed up with poor service and transit system integration.

Lake, the above service changes are the schedule following the traffic.  Little traffic leads to a reduced schedule.  Don't blame the schedule, blame the traffic.  As to the other points, the fare (Really, how much lower than 50 cents could it be?  This hardly makes it unaffordable.  Most parking meters cost a lot more than this!) and system integration issues were not issues when it was built and traffic is off over 90% from projections for the AS BUILT EXISTING COMPLETED system.  As to poor management, consider the same management would run an expanded system.  So, we should expect more of the same.  Another reason not to invest further.

QuoteWe also know the original estimates were cooked for the proposed larger system and the 2.5 mile system that was built. 

No surprise to me.  How about pushing for a grand jury investigation.  You just accused the consultant of lying and not delivering what they were paid to do.  Again, why do you think history won't repeat itself with an expansion?  I am sure of it because it can't be justified otherwise.

QuoteMy predicition for the rest of the year is a continuation of a drop in ridership numbers, with JTA proposing to eliminate Saturday service.  Short of shutting it down and repaying the government the $184 million it cost to construct it, the only way to turn these numbers around would be better integration and efficiency.

We do agree on a continued traffic drop, but not on what to do next.  I say cut our losses, abandon it, and pursue much better alternatives.  I still have not seen one actual citation of a document proving that the workers can't be released and that the Feds would penalize us.  Even if true, I am sure we can negotiate something without penalties if we endeavored on a new and better mass transit alternative.  The $ky-high-way was a pork barrel project ("experiment" to its apologists) that failed immensely and no one should have to keep it going on life support indefinitely at great expense to the taxpayers, both local and federal.

QuoteHowever, take a look at other mass transit systems during the same time period, the numbers are all over the place...
....In the end, while we can point out situations that would cause the skyway's numbers to fall, its hard to tell why Boston's BRT dropped 20%, Miami's Metromover 7.46% or San Diego's Sprinter nearly 18%.  Its also hard to explain Tampa's streetcar shooting up 40% or the Rail Runner going up 220% (although I suspect this is due to the extension of the line to Santa Fe).

My guess, is that the DTs of Miami and Detroit took a huge hit with the fall of the real estate boom.  If there is less people coming into their downtown areas now, its possible that service would drop.  Its also possible there were service cuts or fare changes (for example, Metromover used to run 24/7 for free, which may not be the case now).  Without more information, its hard to see why the numbers range or draw any conclusions that are weighted in facts.

There are probably a couple of hundred or more systems on the list.  Statistically, one would expect to find some variances but no mode consistently failed as greatly as the "AG" ( Automated Guideway) category which is pretty amazing considering they already have near the bottom traffic counts to begin with.  As I said to CS above, the economy doesn't explain the variances since other systems in the same cities didn't share these statistics.  I find blaming the economy odd also because one might actually expect increased ridership of these systems due to their supposed affordability versus the auto.  Did it ever occur to you that the low ridership numbers and continuing exceptional declines common to these systems is a result of the concept just not working?

Quote from: stjr on September 08, 2009, 12:20:47 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 07, 2009, 08:28:54 AM
Why single out the skyway?  Didn't a drop in service occur over the last year, with service now ending at 7pm?  The fare was also raised to $0.50. We already know that its screwed up with poor service and transit system integration.

Lake, the above is the schedule following the traffic.  Little traffic leads to a reduced schedule.  Don't blame the schedule, blame the traffic.  As to the other points, the fare (Really, how much lower than 50 cents could it be?  This hardly makes in unaffordable.  Most parking meters cost a lot more than this!) and system integration issues were not issues when it was built and traffic is off over 90% from projections for the AS BUILT EXISTING COMPLETED system.  As to poor management, consider the same management would run an expanded system.  So, we should expect more of the same.  Another reason not to invest further.

QuoteWe also know the original estimates were cooked for the proposed larger system and the 2.5 mile system that was built. 

No surprise to me.  How about pushing for a grand jury investigation.  You just accused the consultant of lying and not delivering what they were paid to do.  Again, why do you think history won't repeat itself with an expansion?  I am sure of it because it can't be justified otherwise.

QuoteMy predicition for the rest of the year is a continuation of a drop in ridership numbers, with JTA proposing to eliminate Saturday service.  Short of shutting it down and repaying the government the $184 million it cost to construct it, the only way to turn these numbers around would be better integration and efficiency.

We do agree on a continued traffic drop, but not on what to do next.  I say cut our losses, abandon it, and pursue much better alternatives.  I still have not seen one actual citation of a document proving that the workers can't be released and that the Feds would penalize us.  Even if true, I am sure we can negotiate something without penalties if we endeavored on a new and better mass transit alternative.  The $ky-high-way was a pork barrel project ("experiment" to its apologists) that failed immensely and no one should have to keep it going on life support indefinitely at great expense to the taxpayers, both local and federal.

QuoteHowever, take a look at other mass transit systems during the same time period, the numbers are all over the place...
....In the end, while we can point out situations that would cause the skyway's numbers to fall, its hard to tell why Boston's BRT dropped 20%, Miami's Metromover 7.46% or San Diego's Sprinter nearly 18%.  Its also hard to explain Tampa's streetcar shooting up 40% or the Rail Runner going up 220% (although I suspect this is due to the extension of the line to Santa Fe).

My guess, is that the DTs of Miami and Detroit took a huge hit with the fall of the real estate boom.  If there is less people coming into their downtown areas now, its possible that service would drop.  Its also possible there were service cuts or fare changes (for example, Metromover used to run 24/7 for free, which may not be the case now).  Without more information, its hard to see why the numbers range or draw any conclusions that are weighted in facts.

There are probably a couple of hundred or more systems on the list.  Statistically, one would expect to find some variances but no mode consistently failed as greatly as the "AG" ( Automated Guideway) category which is pretty amazing considering they already have near the bottom traffic counts to begin with.  As I said to CS above, the economy doesn't explain the variances since other systems in the same cities didn't share these statistics.  I find blaming the economy odd also because one might actually expect increased ridership of these systems due to their supposed affordability versus the auto.  Did it ever occur to you that the low ridership numbers and continuing exceptional declines common to these systems is a result of the concept just not working?

Ok
Lets get out the wreaking ball and tear the skyway down...
and lets just keep nothing but buses cause at the rate we are going that's all we will ever have here anyway.
And maybe you will have fun riding the bus.
I HATE your poll because as previously pointed out it's all negative and you will never agree with anyone on this site who likes the skyway anyway.
So I kinda don't give a crap what you think.

Quote from: avonjax on September 08, 2009, 12:29:04 AM
Ok
Lets get out the wreaking ball and tear the skyway down...
and lets just keep nothing but buses cause at the rate we are going that's all we will ever have here anyway.
And maybe you will have fun riding the bus.
I HATE your poll because as previously pointed out it's all negative and you will never agree with anyone on this site who likes the skyway anyway.
So I kinda don't give a crap what you think.

Avon, thanks for the rational defense of the $ky-high-way.  It's thinking like that that got it built to begin with.  And, it's continued thinking like that by people like you that has me concerned about justifying any expansion of it.

By the way, if you read this thread from the beginning, you would have seen I did the poll as a parody of the proponents arguments.  If it hit your nerves, well, then maybe you need to ask why?

You have the right to ignore my opinions.  Just don't read them.  This is a discussion site and if you aren't interested in discussions of view points that differ from yours, I suggest you spend your time elsewhere.

P.S. You don't work for JTA or a $ky-high-way contractor, do you?

I happen to like the system even flawed....
I would like it more, finished....
It's the backward thinking of most Jacksonville citizens that have caused any transit in Jax to fail.
And it's that same thinking that has caused them to hate the skyway...
I bet 90% of the residents of our city have never even ridden it.
So guess what it's really ok if I don't hat it.....
I know that must disturb you a great deal.
But you can't sell me on your thinking on the subject....

BTW how long have you been in Jax? Just a curiosity question. No ill intent or whatever.

Quote from: avonjax on September 08, 2009, 12:51:39 AM
BTW how long have you been in Jax? Just a curiosity question. No ill intent or whatever.

If you read my history thread posts, you will realize it's a lifetime.

Also, if your read my extensive posts on the $ky-high-way and mass transit, you would realize it is precisely because I strongly believe in mass transit by bus and rail, that I am against expanding the $ky-high-way.  That's because (are you sitting down?) we actually agree on Jax's lack of vision and progressiveness.  Because of that, mass transit advocates are playing with very limited political capital, not to mention financial resources, and I believe the failure of the $ky-high-way has set back mass transit in Jax by decades.  Continued promotion of the expansion of this ill fated system will only further delay the implementation of really useful mass transit improvements in Jax.

P.S. I don't take these boards seriously enough to get "disturbed" and I would suggest you do the same.  Otherwise, your mental state could be taken to very agitated levels and that's bad for one's health.

I just don't view the skyway with the same contempt as most of Jacksonville.
It's just the same old thing here in this city, so much is done halfway, or more often completely abandoned.
The system should have gone somewhere and I think many more people would have embraced it. But it may not have mattered because I think to many of the citizens of Jax, downtown as a whole is a meaningless hunk of concrete.
Heck I know thousands of people who NEVER leave their neighborhoods.
It's weird to me....
Anyway I still like the concept of the skyway and at some point I believe it should be completed.
Your view seems to favor ripping the whole thing down.

P.S. I don't take these boards seriously enough to get "disturbed" and I would suggest you do the same.  Otherwise, your mental state could be taken to very agitated levels and that's bad for one's health.

Thanks for the advice......I now have a new mother.....

Quote from: avonjax on September 08, 2009, 01:14:35 AM
I just don't view the skyway with the same contempt as most of Jacksonville.
It's just the same old thing here in this city, so much is done halfway, or more often completely abandoned.
...Your view seems to favor ripping the whole thing down.

The "contempt" comes from taxpayers upset they were sold a boondoggle.  Wouldn't you be upset if you didn't get what you paid for and/or it didn't work as promised when sold?

You are right, Jax has a history of doing things half-way (how about "half-ass" to be blunt?).  I can't change that about what's been done in the past, but people like us could sure work to keep it from contining to happen.  My approach with the $ky-high-way is that no amount of "tweaking" it will get it to work and, if I take your view that it's fixable, then the $$$ are too great to be cost effective versus abandonment and starting anew with a much better mass transit system.

Which confirms your last point, yes, I do favor ripping it down and recycling it as an ocean fishing reef as we do with many of our other useless discards.

Good thing all the answer choices were fair and balanced.  What a joke.

QuoteI still have not seen one actual citation of a document proving that the workers can't be released and that the Feds would penalize us.

stjr, would it make any difference if I produced case studys? Named names? Dollars?   

QuoteEven if true, I am sure we can negotiate something without penalties if we endeavored on a new and better mass transit alternative.

With the money grab now going on around Washington, we would be in the wood shed forever!  

OCKLAWAHA

I would be interested to see the documents. If you haven't done so somewhere else on this forum, can you provide the links or list who to call? Thanks.

stjr, here is just one reference to employee protection, Railroads, Amtrak and MASS TRANSIT EMPLOYEES.  

Quotehttp://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:SN00738:@@@D&summ2=m&
Subtitle C: Employee Protection Reforms - Provides that notices to Amtrak employees regarding employee protective arrangements and severance benefits, including all provisions of Appendix C-2 to the National Railroad Passenger Agreement, signed July 5, 1973, shall be deemed served and effective 45 days after enactment of this Act.

(Sec. 141) Requires the National Mediation Board to complete all efforts with respect to the dispute over such arrangements and benefits not later than 120 days after enactment of this Act. Authorizes parties to such dispute to agree to submit it to arbitration under the Railway Labor Act.

Declares that nothing in this Act shall affect the level of protection provided to freight railroad employees and mass transportation employees as it existed before enactment of this Act.  

(Sec. 142) Repeals certain requirements for fair and equitable employee protective arrangements in the event of a discontinuance of intercity rail passenger service (effectively eliminating such contracts).

This is the part where you come in and say, "It doesn't matter for the Skyway, rip it down..." Protection bites double when one considers the Skyway is automated and the dozen or so techies over at monorail central are not cheap. Most every Skyway-Monorail job comes with EXTREME specialties.



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stjr on September 08, 2009, 01:03:04 AM
That's because (are you sitting down?) we actually agree on Jax's lack of vision and progressiveness.  Because of that, mass transit advocates are playing with very limited political capital, not to mention financial resources

stjr, I think you're onto something here  ;)

Hmmm, what are the conclusions we, as mass transit advocates, ought to draw from this statement?

Quotestjr
I say cut our losses, abandon it, and pursue much better alternatives.

Considering the book I'm reading, DAMN AM I GLAD YOUR WERE NOT IN CHARGE AT PEARL HARBOR!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 08, 2009, 10:13:16 AM
stjr, here is just one reference to employee protection, Railroads, Amtrak and MASS TRANSIT EMPLOYEES.  

Quotehttp://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d105:SN00738:@@@D&summ2=m&
Subtitle C: Employee Protection Reforms - Provides that notices to Amtrak employees regarding employee protective arrangements and severance benefits, including all provisions of Appendix C-2 to the National Railroad Passenger Agreement, signed July 5, 1973, shall be deemed served and effective 45 days after enactment of this Act.

(Sec. 141) Requires the National Mediation Board to complete all efforts with respect to the dispute over such arrangements and benefits not later than 120 days after enactment of this Act. Authorizes parties to such dispute to agree to submit it to arbitration under the Railway Labor Act.

Declares that nothing in this Act shall affect the level of protection provided to freight railroad employees and mass transportation employees as it existed before enactment of this Act.  

(Sec. 142) Repeals certain requirements for fair and equitable employee protective arrangements in the event of a discontinuance of intercity rail passenger service (effectively eliminating such contracts).

Ock, the quote you cite above from this act appears to relate to Amtrak only.  Last I checked, the $ky-high-way was run by JTA.  Where are there provisions that would bring in JTA workers?

You highlight the act saying it doesn't change protection for mass transit employees but it doesn't say here what those protections are or how such employees are defined.  And, notice that Section 142, which you cited, REPEALS certain protective arrangements "in the event of a discontinuance" of intercity services.   Hmmm.... maybe such protective arrangements, if they are indeed applicable, have already been repealed for INTRAcity employees. [By the way, even for Amtrak employees, your cite references "severance benefits", thus implying some basis for terminating employees.]

Here is, from your own link, the act's summary, which also says it primarily relates to Amtrak.  :

QuoteS.738
Title: A bill to reform the statutes relating to Amtrak, to authorize appropriations for Amtrak, and for other purposes [which, per the summary description you linked us to, has no further reference to employee issues].

Overall, this language as presented is far from convincing that $ky-high-way employees enjoy the protections you say they have.  Can you find something more on point?

Still looking, too, for a cite on the "give back the Fed's their investment" and "you are blacklisted with the Feds" if you abandon the $ky-high-way.

As always, thanks for your efforts to assist.

Quote from: stephendare on September 08, 2009, 10:23:28 AM
well we could probably do a lot, but at the present theres pretty much just one person who hates the skyway so badly, and one very useful bridge that crosses the river with mass transit.

No amount of posting really changes that.  It boils down to either working with it or coming up with an alternative.

I have yet to hear the alternative.

Stephen, the alternatives have already been discussed and are physically attainable.  It's not "if there are alternatives", it's about picking the BEST alternative(s).

To spell it out, we could continue to use buses or we could add street/trolley cars.  Both could be made to work with our bridges.

And, while I may be the most vociferous on MJ boards, I do not see myself as "just one person who hates the skyway so badly", either on MJ boards or in the greater Jacksonville community.  Actually, I think the odds are rather in my favor as to how the community at large thinks.

I always give you credit for for paying careful attention to MJ discussions.  Don't let me down now.  ;)

Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 08, 2009, 09:31:36 AM
Good thing all the answer choices were fair and balanced.  What a joke.

Captain, it is a "joke".  It's a satirical poll featuring proponents arguments.  Join the list of those posting on this thread with no sense of humor.

If you want "fair and balanced", read the entire thread and all the other threads on this subject laying out many facets of the issue.  Neither side is going to be completely "fair and balanced" when they are trying to make a point in support of a position - which, in and of itself, is a bias toward an issue.  If you are a disinterested observer, you will take such points into consideration and make up your own mind.

From your comments, it appears you have self proclaimed yourself as the epitome of "fair and balanced" and, thus, if true,  I salute you.  I haven't found many people that objective in life so you stand out in the crowd.  :P

Quote from: lindab on September 08, 2009, 09:51:09 AM
I would be interested to see the documents. If you haven't done so somewhere else on this forum, can you provide the links or list who to call? Thanks.

I'd like to see these documents as well.  They would really introduce a new component to the skyway story if confirmed to exist or not.  My guess is that JTA knows the answer.  Someone should contact them.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 08, 2009, 09:14:06 PM

Quote from: lindab on September 08, 2009, 09:51:09 AM
I would be interested to see the documents. If you haven't done so somewhere else on this forum, can you provide the links or list who to call? Thanks.

I'd like to see these documents as well.  They would really introduce a new component to the skyway story if confirmed to exist or not.  My guess is that JTA knows the answer.  Someone should contact them.

While we await for someone to produce the documents, what they purportedly represent would be a pretty sorry reason for keeping the $ky-high-way or, worse, expanding it.

It would be tantamount to acting irresponsibly because we made a deal with the devil.  This would epitomize what taxpayers find wrong with government and just add another black eye to the image of mass transit.  For the greater sake of mass transit, let's hope these claims turn out to be "urban myths".

I would hope even the most ardent $ky-high-way proponents would be reluctant to resort to such claims as support for their favorite toy (it's kind of like wishing for a war to break out to get elected).

Go Suns!

I'd like to ride to work on some sort of self-propelled food item. Maybe like a big party sub. You could eat a little on your way in, eat some for lunch and then have dinner on the way home. Some days, I'd call in at work and tell them I couldn't be there because I ate my ride.

Just imagine, thousands of magical sandwiches carrying people to work. Or magical wraps if you're carb considerate.

I voted for option number one! Pull the plug and get it over with! Ridership is limited and for 7 Million a year we could go to a trolley system or the like. Do just like Savannah one line ,to start with, and go from point A to point B, those points to be determined. Run tracks parallel and have enough cars for a reasonable interval between them. Set main hub at Shipyard parking lot,since its so usefull and large and away we go! Gee, I sure do wish the current Administration had a vision like this.........or any vision at all!