Rail in Jacksonville: Getting Started Immediately
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6150-p1130872.JPG)
“Rapid transit is about a lot more than moving people from Point A to Point B,” Owens says. “It’s about creating vibrant communities. It’s about making Detroit and the suburbs the types of vibrant communities people believe they can become. We need to not only think about what do we want today but want we want 20, 30, 40 years from now. Do we want to continue to sprawl out into the farmlands or do we want to change what we’re doing?” Jon Zemke, Metromode Development News - Density vs. Transit 3 /05/08
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1047
What about expanding the Skyway? It should be extended into 5-Points/Riverside and to the stadium/coliseum area.
That's not currently under consideration by JTA, but according to a 12 year old TU editorial, it would have cost $85 million then.
QuoteLimousines would be cheaper than the Skyway
The Florida Times-Union - Monday, January 6, 1997
Author: Ronald L. Littlepage, Times-Union columnist
No, you are not dreaming.
Yes, it is a nightmare.
The folks at the "we screwed up the roadways and the bus system, what can we do next?" Jacksonville Transportation Authority are making their plans for 1998.
At the top of the list is dumping more money down the rathole -- my apologies to rats everywhere -- popularly known as the Automated Riderless Express.
Never mind that most of the time the cars of the little train that couldn't, when it happens to be running, go back and forth empty.
Never mind that when the 2.5mile system is finally completed late this year, the official price tag will be $185 million of taxpayer money.
Go ahead and figure it out. That comes to almost $75 million per mile.
As has been pointed out before, it would have been cheaper to hire chauffeured limousines to carry the few people who ride the Skyway to their destinations.
From the beginning, the silly train has been billed as a "demonstration project," which is how the JTA got the federal government to ante up a pile of money so that people in places like Wyoming would help us folks in Jacksonville pay for the thing.
Now that the "demonstration" has proven to be a flop, you'd think that would be the end of it.
No.
The JTA is seriously considering further demonstrating its ability to screw up by spending $85 million more to extend the Skyway to Alltel Stadium.
This will get interesting.
Mayor John Delaney, who has appointed some of his buddies to the JTA board, prides himself on fulfilling campaign promises.
Some of us remember what he said about the Skyway when he was running for office in 1995.
He called it a "disaster" and a "turkey." His campaign literature said, "We're through building the people mover." He pledged not to put any more local money into the project.
Because the opposition of a mayor, particularly a popular one like Delaney, would likely end any talk of extending the Skyway , the question becomes: Will Delaney stick by his promises or will he undergo a conversion at the altar of the Skyway as his predecessor did once he was in office?
The JTA is pushing the Skyway extension to Alltel Stadium as a way to get fans to Jaguar games and as a shuttle for downtown workers, who the JTA hopes to entice to park there during the week.
Forget it.
For three years now, we've proven that fans can get to Jaguar games quite nicely, thank you.
As far as downtown workers, $85 million would hire a lot of limousine drivers.
Gee. Shuttle buses would be even cheaper.
So if we have $100 million currently set aside for rapid transit, should a 1-mile skyway expansion to the stadium come before other components (streetcar/commuter rail) that could stretch into areas outside of downtown?
At this time, an expansion of the Skyway to the stadium seems like a disastrous waste of money. $85 million (in 1997 dollars) to connect downtown to a stadium district that already contains adequate parking and is for all intents and purposes a ghost town for much of the year. What a waste of money that would be.
I think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up. Given the city's recent track history in public transit projects, to ensure the whole system gets built, it's going to need some good PR early which means the first phase needs to attract some riders.
QuoteI think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up.
Blanding Blvd. would cost a billion dollars to set up and would be too much of a gamble with downtown visitors opting to take I-295 instead. IMO it should connect downtown to it's immediate surrounding neighborhoods.
San Marco / Riverside / Springfield
All three neighborhood’s are close enough to current station and would only require a few short runs of track.
Plus all three neighborhoods are already established as walk able and would have more skyway riders IMO
I like the urban streetcar proposal though it should cross between Fidelity and BCBS. Then try to take advantage of Amtrak expansions as starter commuter rail.
Quote from: Shwaz on March 27, 2009, 12:32:40 PM
QuoteI think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up.
Blanding Blvd. would cost a billion dollars to set up and would be too much of a gamble with downtown visitors opting to take I-295 instead.
The SW corridor would be the CSX line paralleling Roosevelt. Its estimated that the entire route, from DT to Green Cove Springs, would cost $158 million or $5.4 million per mile. If phased (ex. DT to county line first), it could be possible to get it up and running for less than $100 million.
From article
QuoteCommuter rail SW corridor
Description: Rail corridor connecting Downtown to NAS Jax and Clay County.
Route Length: 29.3 miles
JTA Cost Estimate: $158 million or $5.4 million per mile
High Density Neighborhoods Impacted: Downtown, Riverside, North Riverside, Murray Hill
Pro: Alternative route between Downtown, Orange Park and Clay County. Existing freight traffic expected to be relocated through Baldwin.
Con: If Orlando SunRail commuter rail deal dies, existing freight traffic will not be relocated, thus creating track capacity issues.
Btw, valid point concerning Amtrak. If a Amtrak corridor system could be established, some commuter needs between DT and the counties to the south could be met. It would also result in the reduction of commuter rail implementation costs, since Amtrak would help fund capacity improvements along these rail corridors. This would then free up money to connect urban neighborhoods to DT, via streetcar.
Well, it's unlikely to see an Amtrak corridor service between Jax and Green Cove. However Jax and St. Augustine seems likely. The other one I would thnk of could be the northside line, because of the economic development potential.
QuoteThe SW corridor would be the CSX line paralleling Roosevelt. Its estimated that the entire route, from DT to Green Cove Springs, would cost $158 million or $5.4 million per mile. If phased (ex. DT to county line first), it could be possible to get it up and running for less than $100 million.
I was talking about extending the skyway and thought by the $$$ listed above it would cost a billion dollars to run the sky way to Blanding blvd. / OP
The light rail is definitely better for the longer runs.
Wow, that is... amazingly high for a construction project. Thanks for the good info. I bring up the Skyway because it goes from nowhere to nowhere. I just want to see it at least connect to some residential area. I would ride it every day if it came to 5-Points.
Quote from: 5PointsGuy on March 27, 2009, 03:01:05 PM
Wow, that is... amazingly high for a construction project. Thanks for the good info. I bring up the Skyway because it goes from nowhere to nowhere. I just want to see it at least connect to some residential area. I would ride it every day if it came to 5-Points.
Actually, the $85 Millon a mile Skyway cost is bogus. I wouldn't cost much more then Light Rail (if that much). As they built the original, they planned for a bigger system. Bigger automation, computers, operations center, maintenance base, extra cars and a Skyway yard. Over half the money went into the infrastructure across the street from the TU. The TU just hasn't figured that out.
The actual lines themselves are way too overengineered, expensive and bulky. The Disney monorail runs 3 x the speed and Carry's more passengers then any other system on earth and it's mainlines didn't cost what we paid per mile for just the Skyway Track. So to get a closer idea of the REAL SKYWAY EXPANSION COSTS: Cut the original $180 Million in half (half to the operations center and half to actual lines and stations) Now take that half and cut it again from 1/3 to 1/2 to eliminate the overengineering and you'd be much closer to a correct PER MILE COST figure. OCKLAWAHA
I think we'd get more bang for the buck with the streetcar and spending a goodly sum on the rail-side of the Jacksonville Terminal Station. Billions in new development.
Bring Amtrak back downtown, and wait for the JTC to be built, meanwhile Amtrak could operate out of the new platforms and a temporary station.
Once Amtrak gets a green signal to go for throttle up on regional rail, THEN we go for the Commuter Rail package.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock if I ruled that checkbook your last post is the plan I would go with.
Quote from: DevilsAdvocate on March 27, 2009, 12:04:26 PM
I think the Phillips Hwy and Blanding Blvd routes should be the first two set up. Given the city's recent track history in public transit projects, to ensure the whole system gets built, it's going to need some good PR early which means the first phase needs to attract some riders.
Here is an interesting way to look at the corridors. By council districts impacted:
Streetcar - Districts 4,7,9 & 14
SE (FEC) commuter rail corridor - Districts 4,5,6,9 & 13
SW (CSX A) commuter rail corridor - Districts 9 & 14
N (S-line, CSX S) commuter rail corridor - 7,8,9 & 11
Unless I am looking at that street car map wrong, I do not see it going all the way down Bay ST past the entertainment district to the stadium. Wouldn't that be a gimme route?
Evidently not. There is a fear that it would only attract significant ridership for special events only. So, a line down Bay to the stadium would not be apart of the first streetcar phase.
Although the initial corridor is somewhat different than the one shown above, this image also shows potential streetcar expansion routes.
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/transit/jta_streetcar_study/streetcarrreport090808_page_27.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/979/116/
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/240/516726629_56a97a2b1c.jpg)
St. Louis temporary station - downtown - during several years of constructionQuoteRapid transit is about a lot more than moving people from Point A to Point B,†Owens says. It's about creating vibrant communities. It’s about making Detroit and the suburbs the types of vibrant communities people believe they can become. We need to not only think about what do we want today but want we want 20, 30, 40 years from now. Do we want to continue to sprawl out into the farmlands or do we want to change what we’re doing?†Jon Zemke, Metromode Development News - Density vs. Transit 3 /05/08
Something missed by JTA, as well as most other agencies and all highway builders is hidden in that first line. Think about this:
Highways do NOTHING to move people from point A to B. Highways do an adequate job of moving automobiles from point A to B.
Rapid Transit is the best way of moving people from A to B.
The way I see this is bringing Amtrak or Commuter Rail into the Downtown Jacksonville Terminal without having a completed Skyway or Streetcar or a decent Bus Hub in place is a recipe for disaster. The old "If you build it they will come," has some truth to it. However in Rapid Transit it needs to be carried farther. So If we build it they will come - but what do they do when they get there? If you work at the Justice Complex, Cathedral District, upper La Villa, Courthouse site, Baptist, San Marco, JEA site, stadiums, Talleyrand, Beaver or Dennis Street Industrial areas, or the 8Th street hospitals, you'll be among 2,000 or so others coming in on each route. Step off the fancy new train and your screwed - WALK SUCKER!
We need Streetcar, Skyway and Station Improvements as our distribution system before we distribute people to a dead end. Sure you COULD do it with dedicated buses, but how many rail riders are there because THEY DON'T WANT TO RIDE A BUS? (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3120/2811872166_332be764d5.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3434/3276183615_57dfcd3b23.jpg)
(http://images.stltoday.com/stltoday/resources/newamtrak460nov19.jpg)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2785130036_01814ebd9d.jpg)
The new St. Louis Gateway Amtrak StationOCKLAWAHA
If DT is supposed to be the major attraction for rail riders, it may be a lost cause. The skyway may be in more need of having something feed riders into it (streetcars, Amtrak, commuter rail, etc.), than extending it first.
At this point, I'm not sold we need a skyway extension to the stadium before bringing Amtrak back to the terminal or investing in a commuter rail corridor. An Amtrak hub would not be reliable on the skyway running down Bay to JMS. Sure, it would be great if there were a direct rail link between the terminal and the stadium for local purposes, but an intercity Amtrak system would operate just fine without it, since most riders using it would not be local.
With commuter rail, I think it would utimately depend on the route and type of service. For example, the north corridor (transit dependent neighborhoods, Shands, Gateway, higher frequencies, etc.) would not be impacted as much as those stretching into suburban areas south of the DT.
So with $100 million in hand, to improve mass transit in Jax, the expense alone would most likely promote me to favor corridors that served more of the population base (those at stretch outside of DT's borders) on an every day basis over immediately running the skyway down Bay.
Yes but I did say "a completed Skyway or Streetcar". Thus I still like the bump the streetcar would give us. The Skyway would be icing if we could find another way (Federal Stimulus?) to fund it.
A temporary Amtrak Station of perhaps a station worked into the former "Colored Waiting Room" would be a good start for Amtrak Intercity. It the commuter trains that really need the connections.
OCKLAWAHA
I don't think Amtrak would have to rely on a streetcar line being in place first, but there is an argument for proceeding with a streetcar line before commuter rail corridors.
Commuter rail requires JTA to have to negotiate with CSX, NS and FEC to use portions of their lines. That could be like city hall negotiating courthouse, Shipyards and Waste Management deals. On the other hand, a streetcar line does not require this and could be developed immediately.
The St. Louis metro link is great. I flew in for a convention rode the metro link past colleges, housing places of work, major league stadiums got off at the convention center. At the end of the day I rode it back to the burbs where my in laws live. The train was elevated in some areas, gound levels at others and even subway downtown. I can't wait for a elements of urbanism St. Louis.
If we go streetcar we need to be actively pursuing Amtrak.
Amtrak has their own money pot and they want to be here. We need to be pursuing those guys even if we end up doing nothing locally.
If I were up to me, I would not spend $100 million on the construction of a starter line. I would spend a portion of that number on capital costs and set aside enough money to pay for a few years of O&M costs. My plan would be something like this:
1. Pursue Amtrak by aggressively lobbying FDOT with other Florida municipalities.
While not traditional commuter rail, an enhanced statewide Amtrak system would link DT with surrounding cities like Orange Park and St. Augustine. Amtrak investment would also reduce the local cost of commuter rail by having us piggy back off their track capacity improvements.
2. $70 million in Streetcars
I would spend roughly $50-$60 million to construct a streetcar line between Riverside and Springfield. The initial line would be "no-frills" to keep the costs/track mile low. "No-frills" would include single tracking portions of the route, using existing public ROW, heritage streetcars (the cheapest), simple stops and combining rail improvements with already planned local streetscape projects. This would enable us to stretch the initial line out to benefit more from the start. The remaining funds would be set aside and combined with fare revenue and sponsorships to help cover O&M costs for more than a decade. This will allow the city to immediately enjoy the benefits of rail without having to worry about identifying long term dedicated funding sources right away.
In the meantime, I'd also develop the overall transit master plan and work with the city to make sure their plans incorporate future transit improvements. A little coordination alone, would save this community millions in the long run.
The rest of the money would be used to speed up the process of applying for federal funding for additional streetcar, commuter rail, skyway corridors and bringing Amtrak back downtown. I would also invest in aggressive transit related marketing campaigns. Basically, you would have to live under a rock to not know that Jacksonville is investing in rail to not only improve transit, but also stimulate economic growth and infill in the region.
Respectfully, I think some of you posters are nuts. We have no need for rail, when you can use 100-200 million in the local school system. The proposterous concoctions of people estimated to ride rails are estimates, and really worth the price of my air in Jacksonville.
Rail in Jax is pure poppycock and not needed. Let it die, we need money locally for other social needs.
If rail fans want to go and waste money, do it on the Skyway, so far it has yet to fulfill its prophecy. Or better yet, stand at Forsyth and Ocean and count the cars that go by between 7-9, then go to Forsyth and Broad and count the number of cars rumbling by during the same time. The fact of the matter is there are NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE travelling downtown to pay for RAIL.
Get off it. Or better yet, when we get the school system funded fully, we can then look at the rail folly. Perhaps by then, we will have hydrofoils transporting people from the mecca known as Mayport to downtown, all at the amazing cost of 50 cents each way.
:D
Schools and mass transit are two different issues that are funded by different pots of money. We can ignore transit all we want, but that will not get more money for schools. It will just end up in roads. If the schools are struggling, they should start saving money by eliminating school buses for middle & high school students. There's no reason our kids can't ride city buses like they do in larger cities. That's something that will help the school system save millions annually and increase JTA's ridership numbers.
Lake - LOL, save money, cut buses, cut power, add solar, have JEA give away power for free. Maybe you have not seen the LARGE influx of new people to the area over the last few years. Maybe we only had 4,000 new people, maybe we had 40,000, who really knows. All I know is that the school system has a deficit that cutting bus service cannot fix, you and I both know it.
Before you go and spend more money on roads (which will all be tolls anyway), think about the future of the educated workforce in Jacksonville. Do you want the same kids today driving the buses or cabs in the future or do you want them to lead the city? Forward thinking leans toward the latter, but its your call.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 28, 2009, 01:42:17 AM
Lake - LOL, save money, cut buses, cut power, add solar, have JEA give away power for free. Maybe you have not seen the LARGE influx of new people to the area over the last few years. Maybe we only had 4,000 new people, maybe we had 40,000, who really knows. All I know is that the school system has a deficit that cutting bus service cannot fix, you and I both know it.
Of course its not an end all solution but at least give me credit for suggesting its a start. The latest census numbers show the large influx is headed to Clay and St. Johns Counties. Duval's population growth has been pretty slow compared to most of Florida's metropolitan areas. Anyway cutting buses is only one part of the solution. Selling excess land (including land at existing schools...ex. there's no reason the school board needs six blocks in LaVilla) and better management of funds coming in are also things worth exploring. There's a ton of things that could be done, but its a completely different issue than transportation.
QuoteBefore you go and spend more money on roads (which will all be tolls anyway), think about the future of the educated workforce in Jacksonville. Do you want the same kids today driving the buses or cabs in the future or do you want them to lead the city? Forward thinking leans toward the latter, but its your call.
Considering communities with efficient transit have shown the ability to attract high paying jobs and an educated workforce over those that don't, I'd say ignoring transit would be shortsighted. Having the ability to draw in educated households from other areas also helps our school system. Since the funding sources are different, if its my call, I'd prefer finding a way for better transit and schools. This is not the case of an either or choice.
Quoteno reason the school board needs six blocks in LaVilla
Who wants it? No one wants the JEA land ON THE RIVER, so who would want this land? The school board is as backward as the JTA, so its a matter of who wins. Right now there are more supporters of the School system. When was the last time JTA supporters marched on Tallahassee with kids who would be affected by transportation issues?
We disagree, but I think you cannot put transportation issues ahead of education. We did that for many years in this town and we only received an accredited university in the 60s compared to others around the state who did so much earlier. Education has always been an after thought here, and the lovely call center jobs are a perfect example. Any kid with a heart beat can answer a phone, but it takes serious management skills to lead that call center and Jax has some good schools now, but we need to keep local talent here, instead of letting it go elsewhere.
Sacrificing transportation for growth from education is something I am willing to see.
I agree the number one issue in Duval county is education. Education is the main reason so many young familys with the means have migrited to St. Johns and Clay. Working in Duval and give other counties their property taxes.
The short sighted just take money from one project to band aid another is fools gold however. Running the schools budget like that will ensure that as soon as that money runs out they are in the same situation. You have give the schools budgetary priority year in and year out at the local and state level. The schools budget problems stem from Jeb investing their money in the sub prime mortgage market more than even the broader economic situation. Florida had been making real improvement before that.
You shouldn't just steal money the people of Jax put up in good faith that it would be used for transit. That is just corruption defined.
Your dismissal of the suggestion of using city buses to me smacks of people who work in school systems mantra only more money solves any problem. You then reinforced this feeling by saying that river front property is unwanted. Have you noticed the new High rise develops they have stalled due to temporary national issues but clearly the developers like that area. When you have real real budgetary problems to permanent services you need permanent dedicated funding services.
Have you guys ever heard of Brain Drain? You can have the best schools in the world, but it your quality of life sucks, you're kids leave for college and don't return. While education is certainly important, its foolish to ignore everything else to focus only on schools. This county has 850,000 residents. We should be able to multi-task since many of the things we talk about on this site affect each other on the street.
Agree completely. The three recent college grads in my family live two in NYC and one in Chicago. One is a ballerina with the New York ballet and she was going there if at all possible. The Doctor and the graphic designer could worked here if this city had been more attractive to them.
Right on Jeffery and Lake. Fact is if Jacksonville were more like San Francisco, perhaps all 3 of Jeffery's children would be working here. My oldest danced with Ballet Oklahoma, until knee surgery ended it. I went from sleeping through the dance to looking forward to the next one. I even have the tee shirt, "Real men don't lift weights, they lift women," Ballet Oklahoma.
There is a certain quality of life that good mass transit attracts, Florida hasn't experienced it since the 1930's and early 40's. The same era that most local historians agree Jacksonville stopped being a leading city and dropped to an "also ran" status. Every day some 42,000 person use the JTA buses, even though the system is wholly inadequate for a metropolitan area of our size. That equates to about 21,000 autos taken off the road daily. Anyone want to add that to Blanding? JTB? Beach? Roosevelt? during rush hours?
WORST COMMUTES IN FLORIDA BY RANK
Clay
Commute: 33.4 min
Statewide rank: 1
Putnam
Commute: 30.6 min
Statewide rank: 4
Nassau
Commute: 28.2 min
Statewide rank: 8
OCKLAWAHA
They are not my children two younger cousins and a sister in law. I only point it out because I would love for this to be a city my son will choose when it is time. There is no fix this one thing and the quality of everything is taken care of. If you are saying education or transit you are not ambitious enough for me.
QuoteWhat about expanding the Skyway? It should be extended into 5-Points/Riverside and to the stadium/coliseum area.
I agree with the opinion that Jacksonville should take care the inner core residence first. Yulee, Orange Park & Bayard is B.S. to me and they can get rail
later Riverside, Springfield and San Marco should all have Skyway access, and start building those neighborhoods UP, especially in San Marco and Springfield. Build UP and no those lil 4, 5 story developments. Give the people the want to live that option THE option instead of forcing people who live in the core to live like they live in Yulee.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 28, 2009, 01:21:13 AM
Schools and mass transit are two different issues that are funded by different pots of money. We can ignore transit all we want, but that will not get more money for schools. It will just end up in roads. If the schools are struggling, they should start saving money by eliminating school buses for middle & high school students. There's no reason our kids can't ride city buses like they do in larger cities. That's something that will help the school system save millions annually and increase JTA's ridership numbers.
Lake that is a very very good point!!! In major cities the kids use public transit to get to school.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20STREETCARS%20TROLLEYS/Tampa163REALBirney.jpg)
Tampa's REAL restored 4 wheel Birney Car, found built into a local house. (We should be so lucky).
Jacksonville Traction Company had school fare tokens, so did City Coach Lines in the pre JTA days. There was some discussion about this around 1930, both pro and con but to some extent it lasted well into the 1950's and maybe early 60's.
I do know that the Traction Company had the right to have students suspended? A local motorman told me that the four wheel birneys had long platforms at either end. Boys from Ortega or what he called the LEE HIGH SCHOOL BOYS, would overload one end, then start bouncing up and down until the front wheel derailed. Then run off yelling before the motorman could secure the car and take a strap to them.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2009, 08:41:33 PM
If I were up to me, I would not spend $100 million on the construction of a starter line. I would spend a portion of that number on capital costs and set aside enough money to pay for a few years of O&M costs. My plan would be something like this:
1. Pursue Amtrak by aggressively lobbying FDOT with other Florida municipalities.
While not traditional commuter rail, an enhanced statewide Amtrak system would link DT with surrounding cities like Orange Park and St. Augustine. Amtrak investment would also reduce the local cost of commuter rail by having us piggy back off their track capacity improvements.
2. $70 million in Streetcars
I would spend roughly $50-$60 million to construct a streetcar line between Riverside and Springfield. The initial line would be "no-frills" to keep the costs/track mile low. "No-frills" would include single tracking portions of the route, using existing public ROW, heritage streetcars (the cheapest), simple stops and combining rail improvements with already planned local streetscape projects. This would enable us to stretch the initial line out to benefit more from the start. The remaining funds would be set aside and combined with fare revenue and sponsorships to help cover O&M costs for more than a decade. This will allow the city to immediately enjoy the benefits of rail without having to worry about identifying long term dedicated funding sources right away.
In the meantime, I'd also develop the overall transit master plan and work with the city to make sure their plans incorporate future transit improvements. A little coordination alone, would save this community millions in the long run.
The rest of the money would be used to speed up the process of applying for federal funding for additional streetcar, commuter rail, skyway corridors and bringing Amtrak back downtown. I would also invest in aggressive transit related marketing campaigns. Basically, you would have to live under a rock to not know that Jacksonville is investing in rail to not only improve transit, but also stimulate economic growth and infill in the region.
Excellent idea!!!
Do you have names, phone numbers and e-mail addresses we should all contact?
We should be able to generate 50-80 calls, and perk these folks' attention!
The Amtrak issue is definatley going to be the most difficult. FDOT (Tallahassee) has to be lobbied hard and there has to be some major interest (resolutions of support) from every elected official body in NE FL to get this thing moving ahead.
Is there an effort to get other affected communities (Brevard, Daytona, Miami, etc.) on board with the Amtrak FEC stimulus request by the TCPC? FDOT may ignore Jax, but it can only help if support comes from the entire Atlantic coast.
Well, there is already vocal support from the Treasure Coast.
With Brad Thoburn's new position at FDOT, he could be very hepful
With Orlando's commuter rail deal on life support in Tally, Amtrak may be our best chance (in the next decade or so) for a rail link between DT and the surrounding counties.
Any chance CSX will sweeten the pot to get the Orlando deal done. It seems like CSX already has plans for the money. Jax should be trying to get CSX to throw in the North Florida ROW as an effort to save the deal.
I do think or best chance is Amtrak and use our money on streetcars.
I doubt it. There's a debate about the state tying itself in the future to relieving rail traffic through Lakeland.
QuoteCommuter Rail Proposal Stagnates
By LINDSAY PETERSON
lpeterson@tampatrib.com
Published: March 31, 2009
TALLAHASSEE - With only a month left in the state legislative session, the going has gotten slow for Central Florida's commuter rail project.
A bill with a key liability agreement won't come up for at least two weeks in the next Senate committee scheduled to hear it. At the same time, the head of the U.S. House Transportation Committee has called signing such agreements an "unacceptable practice."
The comments from U.S. Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., came in response to a U.S. Government Accountability Office report about the arrangements that governments make when they buy freight railroads for public use.
In Florida's case, the state plans to give CSX Transportation $432 million for 61 miles of the track that runs through downtown Orlando. The track would be used for a commuter system, called SunRail.
Part of the money would also be used for rail improvements along the line going through Dade City and Lakeland into a new truck-rail hub in Winter Haven.
CSX plans to keep using the Orlando area tracks during off-peak commuter hours, but it requires the state to take liability for all damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by CSX.
Oberstar and U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor, D-Tampa, sought the GAO report last year, when the Florida Legislature first debated the proposed liability agreement. It failed, holding up the CSX sale and SunRail's construction plans.
If the state doesn't approve the agreement this session, the CSX deal will die.
The bill containing the agreement moved easily through previous committees this session, but state Sen. Mike Fasano, R-New Port Richey, has held it up in the committee he chairs, Senate Transportation and Economic Development Appropriations.
It's not the liability provision, he said. He doesn't like the way it makes a space for Lakeland on a waiting list for future transportation dollars. This language was added to appease Lakeland's anger over the extra trains expected to be routed through the town center because of the state-funded rail improvements.
Giving any area priority on the transportation funding list circumvents rules designed to take regional politics out of the process, he said.
He also wants assurances that no state money will be spent for SunRail until the federal government has provided its share. SunRail organizers sold the plan with the promise of federal help in construction of the system.
"I don't want the state to put out hundreds of millions of dollars to pay CSX and start developing this project only to find out in a year or two the federal government is not coming in," Fasano said.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/31/na-commuter-rail-proposal-stagnates/news-metro/
Yes but it has also been about the money so here is a way for CSX to get what it wants and give the state more bang for the buck. BTW I doubt it also just throwing stuff against the wall.
Quote from: fsujax on March 31, 2009, 10:33:35 AM
The Amtrak issue is definatley going to be the most difficult. FDOT (Tallahassee) has to be lobbied hard and there has to be some major interest (resolutions of support) from every elected official body in NE FL to get this thing moving ahead.
Why is FDOT against Amtrak improving their service throughout the state with federal stimulus money? Its not like if they don't make a play for it, it will be used for roads instead of rail. Is our road building lobby that strong that it would turn away rail improvements from outside funding sources?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 31, 2009, 02:15:32 PM
FDOT against Amtrak improving their service throughout the state with federal stimulus money? Its not like if they don't make a play for it, it will be used for roads instead of rail. Is our road building lobby that strong that it would turn away rail improvements from outside funding sources?
YES you can bet they are, just ask a Republican.OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 31, 2009, 04:21:26 PM
YES you can bet they are, just ask a Republican.
Please explain.
Basically, my thinking is, mass transit should go take people from their homes to business/work. Right now we have an underused, undermarketed bus system, a monorail that goes from commercial to commercial and no other mass transit lines to brag about (although I do like the trolley, as I use it every day. I wish it came to 5-points in the morning though, I'd let them charge me for the ride).
QuoteCSX plans to keep using the Orlando area tracks during off-peak commuter hours, but it requires the state to take liability for all damage to commuter trains or passengers in the case of an accident, even one caused by CSX.
Any lawmaker that signs off on that deal, should have their head examined. So if a passenger train hits a car because one of CSX's gates is not down, the State gets the shaft? Rails buckling due to improper installation - state pays, this sounds like the shaft.
CSX is the mos over-leveraged of the Class 1 railroads. They sold off the Greenbriar, and PAID Marriott millions for 3 years to help Marriott run it. Tell CSX to shove it where the sun don't shine and have then self-insure the line. After all, the state is helping them with something, they want to abandon south of Palatka.
QuoteRight now we have an underused, undermarketed bus system, a monorail that goes from commercial to commercial and no other mass transit lines to brag about
I agree with you!!!
We do need a rail system.... as much as we need a hole in our heads. Prove people will give up their cars, make the bus system work.
Atlanta had buses before MARTA and it worked before MARTA rail. It can be done, but rail is the chicken and bus is the egg. Don't put the chicken before the egg.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 11, 2009, 02:35:13 AM
It can be done, but rail is the chicken and bus is the egg. Don't put the chicken before the egg.
Isn't the saying that we don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg? Perhaps you mean cart before the horse?
QuoteProve people will give up their cars
If you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.
Another fallacy in the anti-transit argument. It is not about trying to prove that give up their cars. Its about improving the region's quality of life by offering reliable transportation choices and being a catalyst for game changing economic development.
Quote from: Sigma on March 31, 2009, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 31, 2009, 04:21:26 PM
YES you can bet they are, just ask a Republican.
Please explain.
The Republican platform since Amtrak was formed in 1971 has been to ZERO the budget of AMTRAK. That Amtrak has survived on a year to year handout without a fixed budget is incredible and shows the love afair Americans have with the train.
Nixon - Tried everything in his power to dump Amtrak
Ford - Same Thing
Carter - a rare Democrat, but weak president had a Republican congress force the abandonment of 5 routes, including 2 to Jacksonville.
Reagan - Invented the plea for a ZERO budget
Bush - Followed Reagan
Clinton - Didn't lift a finger to help but he didn't try and kill it either - a hostile Congress did.
Bush - Back to the ZERO budget
Obama - FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS IT!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on April 11, 2009, 08:23:57 AM
Another fallacy in the anti-transit argument. It is not about trying to prove that give up their cars. Its about improving the region's quality of life by offering reliable transportation choices and being a catalyst for game changing economic development.
Lake we don't need any more proved record then LOS ANGELES, they were forced into Commter Rail when the Loma Preita earthquake closed a giant fly over interchange suspended from mountains in the Beals Cut area.
The rail tunnel below the pass wasn't harmed, Earthquakes don't usually damage underground. So Toronto loaned commute equipment to Los Angeles and the WORLDS MOST AUTOCENTRIC SOCIETY bailed from their cars in such numbers the the trains became a fixed part of LA. OCKLAWHA
Quote from: 5PointsGuy on April 01, 2009, 02:33:38 PM
a monorail that goes from commercial to commercial and no other mass transit lines to brag about
The station that was torched is the only one that has residential near it. Would you call that a commercial area?
Yes, that's a commercial area. Over the last two years, the new condo towers have added a few residents. However, it will need more than three half empty towers to have a strong impact on ridership numbers.
QuoteIf you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.
YAWN, that is the easy way out of saying the proof is in the site, somewhere, just because someone told me it was true....well it must be true. Nah, don't drink the Kool-aid, look around you and see if rail works ANYWHERE in the State of Florida and if it is successful, meaning profitable.
QuoteIt is not about trying to prove that give up their cars. Its about improving the region's quality of life by offering reliable transportation choices and being a catalyst for game changing economic development.
Wonderful point! Give people the options with Trolley buses that use sales taxes collected from fuel to see if people will give up their cars and use "reliable transportation choices", before wasting taxpayer dollars on rail, which the Skyway, has proven has not worked. Tolleys are purchased and in use and successful in SOME areas, and not so in others. JTA learn from these issues and use trolleys and "reliable transporation choices" in areas that need them. You can't paint the entire RTC in rail. If you can prove you link people together with buses, it would be conceivable that rail would warrant more concern, when and IF the population density warranted it.
Where is RAIL needed RIGHT now in Jacksonville? If money were no object, where do CITIZENS of Jax need RAIL RIGHT NOW? Those places, I would target with already paid-for buses and see the results.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 17, 2009, 03:58:18 AM
QuoteIf you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.
YAWN, that is the easy way out of saying the proof is in the site, somewhere, just because someone told me it was true....well it must be true. Nah, don't drink the Kool-aid, look around you and see if rail works ANYWHERE in the State of Florida and if it is successful, meaning profitable.
You still don't get that public transit is a
service provided by the government that DOES NOT MAKE A PROFIT. Libraries don't make a profit, and only a small percentage of the population use them. The Fire Service does not make a profit, and not everyone uses them. But, because transit charges its customers to recover a portion of its costs, and other public services do not, transit gets blasted for "not making a profit." (And, yes, I know that Rescue charges for its calls, but the Fire side does not, and I would bet that even with the charges, Rescue does not make a profit for the City.)
QuoteWonderful point! Give people the options with Trolley buses that use sales taxes collected from fuel to see if people will give up their cars and use "reliable transportation choices", before wasting taxpayer dollars on rail, which the Skyway, has proven has not worked. Tolleys are purchased and in use and successful in SOME areas, and not so in others. JTA learn from these issues and use trolleys and "reliable transporation choices" in areas that need them. You can't paint the entire RTC in rail. If you can prove you link people together with buses, it would be conceivable that rail would warrant more concern, when and IF the population density warranted it.
Where is RAIL needed RIGHT now in Jacksonville? If money were no object, where do CITIZENS of Jax need RAIL RIGHT NOW? Those places, I would target with already paid-for buses and see the results.
So you're logic is Not to attempt any rail, skyway, trolley, street car because it's possible that it will not be an overwhelming success. Jax should just sit back and watch federal money go to other cities all around us.
It's obvious you're ultra-conservative and you're against all this government spending but the reality is, it's happening. Speaking negatively on a forum that's obviously pro new transportation projects and rail in particular isn't going to change that. Why not run a new line for the mtrain right out of metrojacksonville and into to letter to your elected officials. RTFO
QuoteWhere is RAIL needed RIGHT now in Jacksonville? If money were no object, where do CITIZENS of Jax need RAIL RIGHT NOW? Those places, I would target with already paid-for buses and see the results.
Here are a few spots.
DT - Orange Park/Fleming IslandClay has the longest commute times in the state. Blanding and Roosevelt are a mess during rush hour because there is no alternative for heading north into city. A bus won't solve the issue because it will be sitting in stand still traffic with the rest of the congestion, unless the roads are expanded to include busways. If you're going to invest in that, you might as well go with rail because the implementation cost are cheaper.
DT-Southside-St. AugustineThis corridor includes some of the region's most rapidly growing areas. Once the Overland Bridge replacement and JTB interchange projects kick off, its really going to be a mess. Also, with DT and St. Augustine's historic district as the end points, it is one of the few bi-directional regional lines. Again, we could run a bus, but it will be sitting in traffic with everyone else.
Inner City JaxNot so much for traffic congestion, but for spurring infill economic development where public infrastructure already exists by connecting dense residential neighborhoods with the CBD and various cultural attractions. This could be an investment that helps slow down the rate of sprawl by turning the urban core into a viable living alternative centered around walkability and sustainable development. Unfortunately, buses simply don't spur economic development like rail-based transit does.
QuoteDT - Orange Park/Fleming Island
Clay has the longest commute times in the state. Blanding and Roosevelt are a mess during rush hour because there is no alternative for heading north into city. A bus won't solve the issue because it will be sitting in stand still traffic with the rest of the congestion, unless the roads are expanded to include busways. If you're going to invest in that, you might as well go with rail because the implementation cost are cheaper.
I feel that if we had to choose one rail starter line, this would be ideal. Since this area is already so congested ridership has the potential to be huge. And if the starter line is successful, it would be easy to justify expanding the system into the other areas - just like what Charlotte did with the Blue Line.
Quote from: cline on April 17, 2009, 10:17:44 AM
QuoteDT - Orange Park/Fleming Island
Clay has the longest commute times in the state. Blanding and Roosevelt are a mess during rush hour because there is no alternative for heading north into city. A bus won't solve the issue because it will be sitting in stand still traffic with the rest of the congestion, unless the roads are expanded to include busways. If you're going to invest in that, you might as well go with rail because the implementation cost are cheaper.
I feel that if we had to choose one rail starter line, this would be ideal. Since this area is already so congested ridership has the potential to be huge. And if the starter line is successful, it would be easy to justify expanding the system into the other areas - just like what Charlotte did with the Blue Line.
The problem with this idea, is that the underlying assumption is that everyone in clay is trying to get downtown. Of course this isn't true very few are heading that way. We get into the problem again, there is no central area in this city that people are trying to get to, its spread all over. If you have a major feeder line, fine, but you have the supporting structure whether it be buses, trams or horse and buggy to get people to where they want to go. So far you can't beat the car in this town
QuoteIf you have a major feeder line, fine, but you have the supporting structure whether it be buses, trams or horse and buggy to get people to where they want to go. So far you can't beat the car in this town.
Mass transit should be viewed as an alternative travel option. At the end of the day, Jacksonville won't remain economically healthy by relying on cars and highways alone, for its transportation needs. Nevertheless, I agree a support structure feeding transit spines must be in place for any type of transit to be successful.
QuoteThe problem with this idea, is that the underlying assumption is that everyone in clay is trying to get downtown. Of course this isn't true very few are heading that way
It's not like there would only be 2 stations though, 1 in Greencove and 1 downtown. People work all along the Roosevelt corridor and could get off where they need to between the 2 end destinations.
QuoteIt's not like there would only be 2 stations though, 1 in Greencove and 1 downtown. People work all along the Roosevelt cooridor and could get off where they need to between the 2 end destinations.
Exactly. NAS JAX is a huge employment center that could be served by a line such as this.
Along that line, destinations could include:
Fleming Island
Orange Park
Wells Road
NAS JAX
Roosevelt Square
FCCJ Kent
Edgewood Avenue/Murray Hill/Avondale
King Street (Park & King, St. Vincents via shuttle)
At those locations, you could have coordinated bus service that takes riders into Westside area not located along the rail corridor.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 17, 2009, 03:58:18 AM
QuoteIf you spend some time looking on this site you will see many examples offered of cities like Jax who have had success with rail systems.
YAWN, that is the easy way out of saying the proof is in the site, somewhere, just because someone told me it was true....well it must be true. Nah, don't drink the Kool-aid, look around you and see if rail works ANYWHERE in the State of Florida and if it is successful, meaning profitable.
At first I though ok go though and pull all of the evidence submited here. Before I did it occurred to me I would be making a comment on this sight therfor you couldn't be swayed by this evidence because you would be afraid of "drinking the Kool Aid".
I am hoping that was just your lame attempt at avoiding the work of looking here(it is easy don't be afraid) or just a way of deflecting the comment.
In hopes that you really do not believe we can't have discussions here where it is OK to consider what others post and site here is an easy link to one of this weeks articles that speaks to your need for proof. ( I do get the paradox of proving something in the future when you prove it, it is in the past).
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4792.0.html (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,4792.0.html)
I know you want Jax to reallocate the 100mil to education so you may want to stay away from the profitable argument with public services.
unless, of course, he were to argue that a good school system attracts more families, produces smarter generations of students, and attracts bigger companies. Of course, those future generations will continue to leave the city unless quality of life improves...which is why we can't neglect proper planning. If Jax doesn't have efficient mass transit in place in 25 years, this whole metropolitan area is screwed. All of these issues go hand in hand and we can't only focus on one problem.
Anyway, this is my last attempt to speak to mtrain. I admire the patience of Lake, and some others, to try to convert all of our faithful citizens but I just don't have that in me. Mtrain, if buses could do what fixed rail does for a cheaper price tag, then I would be in your camp. Let's make use of what we have.* But you're missing a number of points, the primary one being that rail is a catalyst for millions of dollars of development that buses can not match. If it appears that a commuter rail system in this region and a streetcar system in the urban area will not yield those same investments that we've witnessed in so many other cities in the US, then I will quickly withdraw my support. But at the moment, I am quite optimistic. If you want to keep arguing, mtrain, then at least debate the main points brought up. There is plenty of room to go back and forth. But if you choose to ignore the crux of our argument, then it just goes nowhere.
*although it could be proven that we already have the foundation for a commuter rail system in place even more so than we have the building blocks for an efficient bus system. This was demonstrated when commuter rail costs came out lower than the price tag for JTA's original BRT design.