Metro Jacksonville

Potential Mayoral Candidates:

Jim Bailey
Dan Davis
Ronnie Fussel
Mike Hogan
Glorious Johnson
Audrey Moran

any others?
What does our readership think of the ones on this list?

Wasn't Jerry Holland (Sup. of Elections) interested at one time?

gee, I will take anyone over the current. I am just soooo sick of him. Since we are on this note, can we have resume of the potential candidates?

Warren Jones?

Warren Jones would be a good bet.  But I am for Audrey Moran.  Cannot think of anyone smarter or more well suited for the post.  I am glad that she did not run for State Attroney, becuase now she is available for mayor

Do not forget the politician who never goes away, Tommy Hazouri. School board term coming to an end soon, likes the action. Could be a viable candidate, he has name recognition and if he fights Peyton on school funds, could catch a new following.

Jim Overton, property appraiser, is also a good former city councilman who has good community ties and is well respected.

No former Sherrif Nat? Made it a horse race last time, and could get the black voters back out in droves. Ride the Obama wave, if it is still carrying weight when the mayor's race begins.

As long as Gate Petroleum no longer controls the city, I'll be happy.

It's kind of like like the presidential election...it got to where I almost didn't care who won, because no matter what at least the a$$hole was gone.

Quote from: stephendare on April 03, 2009, 11:31:04 AM
Jim Overton is a good guy.  So is Tommy and he was a decent mayor.
Rick Mullaney?

Mullaney is ok, he's a very smart guy. But I'm still convinced he was on the take in that Jacksonville Shipyards Inc. development deal, where he worded the contracts with the builder in such a way that they got a free $40 million dollars from the city without being obligated to complete the project.

I bet if someone dug deep enough, they would find he has a brother in law or something working for that company, or he received some kind of payment from them. He definitely has the smarts, but ethically I dunno. Par for the course in Jacksonville, though. Politicians around here are almost as bad (or worse) as Chicago.

I don't really know too much about the other two...

We need someone like Michael Bloomberg - progressive, independent, about doing what they think is best for the city as a whole, not a particular vested interest.  Anyone who can herd all those stray cats in a city of millions and be as popular as he is has special talent.

Most, if not all the names suggested here, are political retreads with lots of baggage and preexisting obligations and commitments.  I wouldn't expect these types to be much different than many we have had before.

P.S. Stephen, candidates with ties to developers, builders and conservative religious ties probably aren't going to bode well for the prospects of an emphasis on downtown and the surrounding core area's revitalization or any requested additions for night life involving progressive dance music, alcohol, or other pushing-the-envelope entertainment that might "spice" up the area.  Be careful what you ask for ;)  Don't expect a full blown city renaissance under these candidates if they get elected mayor.

Quote from: stephendare on April 03, 2009, 12:35:52 PM
Lol.   Wasnt Peyton supposed to be that guy, stjr?

My dream candidate would be a return of Delaney.

I have a couple of personal favorites on the list above of course.  But these are people who are being talked about as actually running.

Got anyone to draft?

Delaney was the best Mayor we've had in decades, but he didn't do everything well. I never really liked the execution of the "Better" Jacksonville plan. Creating a huge and widely-publicized cash pool is just bound to draw everybody out of the woodwork to stick their fingers in the pie, and naturally, that's EXACTLY what happened. The fund got scavenged for other purposes, and half the projects still aren't done or even started. He also bears some responsibility for the courthouse mess.

I also think he placed no emphasis on downtown and public transit.

Tony Allegretti

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 03, 2009, 12:54:03 PM

Delaney was the best Mayor we've had in decades, but he didn't do everything well. I never really liked the execution of the "Better" Jacksonville plan. Creating a huge and widely-publicized cash pool is just bound to draw everybody out of the woodwork to stick their fingers in the pie, and naturally, that's EXACTLY what happened. The fund got scavenged for other purposes, and half the projects still aren't done or even started. He also bears some responsibility for the courthouse mess.

I also think he placed no emphasis on downtown and public transit.

I guess unless we ourselves are elected, no one is going to please us individually all the time.

I liked the library from BJP but, lets face it, the BJP was really a cover for putting more money into the stadium for the Jags.   The BJP was an "all or nothing" deal, and with all its sweeteners, few had the stamina to say "no".  And, Delaney got snookered by the judges he used to work with at the State Attorney's office in letting them take the lead on designing the Courthouse.  We know how that turned out!  ;D

I believe that over time Delaney will be best remembered for the land he was able to get put aside for preservation and parks.  I do wish Peyton had continued this emphasis.  Such actions will have an impact to eternity as such opportunities missed are forever lost.  No doubt, one day will have one of these lands dedicated to his efforts.

Peyton lacks completing a big time signature goal from his administration.   I do think he often has good intentions and really is interested in doing what is best for the City although, again, we can often agree to disagree on various issues.  Most people I know think he is a genuinely "nice guy" regardless of their political leanings.  He did manage to bring in the big port deals and this will likely be his top highlight along with a few other business and international opportunities that came home under his watch.  And, while its not bricks and mortar, I think he has been as fiscally responsible as he could be (the police and fire pensions, not withstanding) with the cards he was dealt with.  That takes some toughness considering all the free loaders in this City.  And, considering Peyton has a young family, I give him credit for popping up just about everywhere in the City and being highly visible.

I think a Peyton weakness is in consistently trusting and choosing the right people and in keeping his eye on the ball 100%.   Sifting out the best strategies from the many voices he was hearing from may not have always been his strong point.  He also may be out of touch with some critical details (like how big the new courthouse really is!).  Peyton was cursed with a lot of tough situations:  the Courthouse, cleaning up the unsavory leftovers of the BJP, the property tax cut fiasco created by his own party in Tallahassee, and, now, the economy.  While the verdict is still out, Obama came into office with a set of priorties to address and, mostly, has stayed focused on those for now.  It is too easy to get distracted and have such priorities diluted and end up with only a little of a lot of things and no big agenda items finished.  I have a sense this approach may have afflicted Mr. Peyton.  Peyton came in as young and relatively inexperienced and this may have further colored his effectiveness to some degree.

I agree with your assessment stjr...

It should have just been called the "Bitter Jacksonville Plan", since that's what it yielded. Nobody got what they wanted out of, despite all that wasted money. Well, except for some of the "Good ole' Boy" contractors like Auchter Co. And I guess W.W. sure made out like a bandit too, only to turn around last year and threaten to move to a new city, if his pot wasn't sweetened even further. *sigh* The city sure isn't any better off for all those billions gone, that I can see.

This place seems hell-bent on giving everything away to those who least deserve it.

 I'd rather find someone who's working in city government as an employee, not an elected official. You really don't have a clue how poorly run things are - not talking about the big things that make the news, but all the little day-to-day ops the really good beneficial programs can't do properly because of all the red tape and lackadaisical behavior of the higher-ups in accounting and finance.

Suffice it to say, it would take someone who's truly witnessed the inefficiency of certain central operations departments to really be able to get in there and change it from the get go. I know someone in that position who mentioned in private that he'd love to seriously run someday. If he is serious, I'll post his name. :-X

Until then, I'm all for Glorious!

I totally agree with you Cliff's daughter....we not only need someone who has seen the wrong happening, but someone who isn't part of the already in place system. I'm curious as to whom this person is, that you eluded too...perhaps they are serious and you'll fill us in...until then, I have to say that if CW Johnson tosses her hat into the ring, I'll support her.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 03, 2009, 02:09:19 PM
I agree with your assessment stjr...

It should have just been called the "Bitter Jacksonville Plan", since that's what it yielded. Nobody got what they wanted out of, despite all that wasted money. Well, except for some of the "Good ole' Boy" contractors like Auchter Co. And I guess W.W. sure made out like a bandit too, only to turn around last year and threaten to move to a new city, if his pot wasn't sweetened even further. *sigh* The city sure isn't any better off for all those billions gone, that I can see.

This place seems hell-bent on giving everything away to those who least deserve it.

If you can't see where the money has gone, then you haven't been looking. The Library, the baseball field, the coliseum, were all paid with BJP funds.  Sidewalks and roads have been created widened and repaired too.  A whole slew of branch library projects were completed as well.  Several of the Preservation Project purchases were paid in part with BJP funds, which were leveraged with other funds.   

It's true that cost overruns took out some improvements at least temporarily, but those were primarily road projects only.   

When Delaney was Mayor a detailed report was published every quarter on what had been completed and what was in the pipeline.   I believe those stopped after he left office. 

Someone mentioned the BJP was just a trick to funnel more money to the Jaguars.  If memory serves, not one penny of BJP funds has gone to the stadium.   The Shipyards deal was unfortunate, but it was not a part of the BJP either.  I still think the original developers should have been given the  chance to bring it to fruition.  There successors have been no more successful than they were.     

The BJP was a great plan and went a long way to bring Jax 'up to speed' with it's peer cities.  Unfortunately, the momentum from that has been allowed to disipate. 

My biggest regret with the bJP is that it was that the ones (Delaney. Mousa, et al) that staretd it, were not allowed to complete it due to 'term limits'.     

 

Quote from: stephendare on April 03, 2009, 01:57:12 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 03, 2009, 01:16:10 PM
Tony Allegretti

He isnt in the running, and like either me or lake, doesnt have the experience.   Interesting choice though.

He has as much experience as the current mayor did when he ran. 

That said, I agree he shouldn't run for mayor -- yet.  An at-large city council seat would be just the ticket though.  In four year hence, he would have the experience. 

Quote from: vicupstate on April 06, 2009, 08:13:17 PM
If you can't see where the money has gone, then you haven't been looking. The Library, the baseball field, the coliseum, were all paid with BJP funds.  Sidewalks and roads have been created widened and repaired too.  A whole slew of branch library projects were completed as well.  Several of the Preservation Project purchases were paid in part with BJP funds, which were leveraged with other funds.   

It's true that cost overruns took out some improvements at least temporarily, but those were primarily road projects only.   

When Delaney was Mayor a detailed report was published every quarter on what had been completed and what was in the pipeline.   I believe those stopped after he left office. 

Someone mentioned the BJP was just a trick to funnel more money to the Jaguars.  If memory serves, not one penny of BJP funds has gone to the stadium.   The Shipyards deal was unfortunate, but it was not a part of the BJP either.  I still think the original developers should have been given the  chance to bring it to fruition.  There successors have been no more successful than they were.     

The BJP was a great plan and went a long way to bring Jax 'up to speed' with it's peer cities.  Unfortunately, the momentum from that has been allowed to disipate. 

My biggest regret with the bJP is that it was that the ones (Delaney. Mousa, et al) that staretd it, were not allowed to complete it due to 'term limits'.     

Oh come on...the new main library is about the ONLY thing out of that $2.2+ billion dollars worth of proposed projects that actually got done, besides for the Veterans' Arena, and those two projects only comprised about $230 million of the total amount. Everything else has been a disaster...

The road improvements, including the proposed new interchanges which I considered to be the MOST important part, were repeatedly delayed, pushed off, and most of them were ultimately canceled, with the money being funneled around to other things (including, IIRC, $34 million dollars that got diverted to stadium repairs for the Jaguars a few years back, and also to the ridiculous courthouse boondoggle under which a couple hundred million has already evaporated and we still don't have a courthouse!).

And aside from that, they dropped $30 million on an Equestrian Center and $50 million on public incentives for private developers at Cecil Commerce Center, all of which has been such a gigantic flop that the City keeps trying to give it back to the Navy. Except they don't want it either. So we just keep paying...

They spent $10 million on building an addition to the Jacksonville Zoo, called "Jacksonville: Range of the Jaguar", replete with live Jaguars and football tie-ins.

Seriously, what would you rather have. A zoo exhibit to promote a privately owned football team, or functional roadways? A ridiculously ostentatious $190 million dollar courthouse that, due to incompetence, is now a $400+ million dollar proposition? And that, when the old one works just fine? And I agree that the main library is nice, but so was the old one! And the old one was never busy, I'm still not understanding why we needed a new one. A $30 million dollar equestrian center that sits unused 90% of the time?

So yeah, I dunno, I do think some of these projects are unnecessary, especially in this economy, and yes, I think the money could have been much better spent. The arena was $130m and the library was $95m. The rest of it was pretty much wasted, compared to where it could have been spent. Or, in many cases (the courthouse), just wasted outright...

Without doing the research, I think the Weavers also contributed to the "Range of the Jaguar" exhibit.
Are you dismissing the several branch libraries also built with BJP? 
The "City keeps trying to give" Cecil back to the Navy?  Mayor FlipFlop brought this up - once - and lost a referendum on it. I don't see this fits "keeps trying" - that implies several attempts.  The costs of the overpasses were grossly underestimated, as were the costs of many of the roadway projects.  Assuming the Delaney administration had a "price point" in mind, if the projects were estimated correctly, there would have been fewer of them, which would have reduced the political attractiveness of having lots of projects all around town.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 06, 2009, 09:27:32 PM
Without doing the research, I think the Weavers also contributed to the "Range of the Jaguar" exhibit.
Are you dismissing the several branch libraries also built with BJP? 
The "City keeps trying to give" Cecil back to the Navy?  Mayor FlipFlop brought this up - once - and lost a referendum on it. I don't see this fits "keeps trying" - that implies several attempts.  The costs of the overpasses were grossly underestimated, as were the costs of many of the roadway projects.  Assuming the Delaney administration had a "price point" in mind, if the projects were estimated correctly, there would have been fewer of them, which would have reduced the political attractiveness of having lots of projects all around town.

The Weavers may have contributed, but that doesn't change the fact that the City's tab was $10mil out of the "Better" Jacksonville Plan, in addition to the substantial ongoing operating costs.

And mayor flip-flop (I like that name) has floated giving Cecil back to the Navy more than once. It's been a constant source of conversation since I moved here in 2000. They were actually going to bite once, but IIRC the typical geniuses who had all built houses right at the end of a runway started griping, and it killed it. But not for lack of trying on the part of the City, though...

As to scrapping the road projects and new interchanges, this is where we diverge. I'd personally rather have operational and functional roadways than a Taj Mahal of a Courthouse that we don't need in the first place, an equestrian center nobody uses, a vacant Commerce Park, and live Jaguars running around to promote our NFL team. Call me nuts...

QuoteDelaney was the best Mayor we've had in decades, but he didn't do everything well. I never really liked the execution of the "Better" Jacksonville plan. Creating a huge and widely-publicized cash pool is just bound to draw everybody out of the woodwork to stick their fingers in the pie, and naturally, that's EXACTLY what happened. The fund got scavenged for other purposes, and half the projects still aren't done or even started. He also bears some responsibility for the courthouse mess.

Well Delaney (under his watch) did build the arena, baseball grounds and most of the library under Delaney. Peyton has only built mistrust and expanded government. How can his father run a fantastic company, and he can't run a government like a business? Courthouse would have been fine had we stayed the course and built the darn thing, instead of the mess we are in now.

Good lesson for everyone on Govt projects - City run projects, unless they have a defined begin and end date, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS drag on indefinately. There is no leadership in the City to hold people's butts to the fire.

For actual facts regarding the "Better Jacksonville Plan" here are some links... enjoy! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Better+Jacksonville+Plan/default.htm

Environmental Clean-up of Ash Sites - $25 million
Neighborhood Park Improvements - $15 million
Preservation Project Jacksonville - $50 million The Preservation Project was a series of land grants for parks. In 2003, The Nature Conservancy awarded Mayor Delaney the President's Conservation Achievement Award for his work on the Preservation Project.
Septic Tank Remediation - $75 million
Jacksonville Equestrian Center & Cecil Recreation Complex - $25 million
Jacksonville Zoo: Range of the Jaguar - $10 million
Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Fund - $25 million
Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena - $130 million
Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville - $34 million
New Main Library - $95 million
New Library Branches/Renovations - $55 million

But you forgot to add that we supposed to get traffic flow improvements, and/or actual highway style interchanges at:

Butler Blvd./US-1 and Butler Blvd./I-95 Intersections
University/Beach Intersection
Salt Marsh (Fanning Island and FIND) Mitigation Sites
Beaver Street (Devoe to Edgewood)
Atlantic Boulevard (Girvin/Hodges/San Pablo)
Atlantic/Kernan Intersection
Atlantic/Southside Intersection

Where are those?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 07:02:37 AM
For actual facts regarding the "Better Jacksonville Plan" here are some links... enjoy! :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

http://www.coj.net/Departments/Better+Jacksonville+Plan/default.htm

Environmental Clean-up of Ash Sites - $25 million
Neighborhood Park Improvements - $15 million (What happened to these?)
Preservation Project Jacksonville - $50 million
Septic Tank Remediation - $75 million (Private land should = Private money for septic tank removal.)
Jacksonville Equestrian Center & Cecil Recreation Complex - $25 million (Need I say more?)
Jacksonville Zoo: Range of the Jaguar - $10 million (Haha...told you so! Great use of tax dollars)
Northwest Jacksonville Economic Development Fund - $25 million (Don't get me started on the JEDC)
Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena - $130 million
Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville - $34 million
New Main Library - $95 million
New Library Branches/Renovations - $55 million

And you forgot to add the most important one: Our wonderful new courthouse! It's so pretty!

Oh wait, that's right, I'm dreaming and we don't have one. We've spent millions and it hasn't even been started yet, and will cost $400 million more to actually build it.

Quote from: mtraininjax on April 07, 2009, 01:02:42 AM

QuoteDelaney was the best Mayor we've had in decades, but he didn't do everything well. I never really liked the execution of the "Better" Jacksonville plan. Creating a huge and widely-publicized cash pool is just bound to draw everybody out of the woodwork to stick their fingers in the pie, and naturally, that's EXACTLY what happened. The fund got scavenged for other purposes, and half the projects still aren't done or even started. He also bears some responsibility for the courthouse mess.

Well Delaney (under his watch) did build the arena, baseball grounds and most of the library under Delaney. Peyton has only built mistrust and expanded government. How can his father run a fantastic company, and he can't run a government like a business? Courthouse would have been fine had we stayed the course and built the darn thing, instead of the mess we are in now.

Good lesson for everyone on Govt projects - City run projects, unless they have a defined begin and end date, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS drag on indefinately. There is no leadership in the City to hold people's butts to the fire.

Right, everybody wants to point to the Veterans' Arena and the Library to say the BJP was a success.

Problem is, for every project that got done, there are 3 that didn't. And I'm talking important stuff too. And the thing was stuffed with pork. Again, I'd rather have functional roads than live Jaguars running around promoting an NFL team, paying for septic tank repairs on private property, and an equestrian center that nobody uses.

And while the new library is nice, for $100mil the only part of it that's any busier than the old one was is the first floor where the cafe etc. is. The old one was adequate. And they destroyed some great historic architecture to build it.

And yeah...then there's the courthouse...

The problem Chris is that you make conclusions that are not true...  The zoo improvement was a worthy project.  You seem to have a problem with jaguars... perhaps aardvarks would have been better?  Septic tank removal protects the river by removing pollution streams that turn the St Johns green.  People DO use the equestrian center... Do you only approve of things you use?  Cecil commerce is attracting businesses... most communities that have lost bases due to BRAC have had difficulty replacing and reusing those facilities.  The new library was desperately needed... The Hayden Burns was barely serviceable and the satellite branch refurbishments were also desperately needed.  A new courthouse is also needed.  Finally here I agree with you.  The new building has been a giant boondoggle from the outset... the design... the cost... the delays.

If you have not been to the zoo recently I highly recommend it...

http://www.jaxzoo.org/

http://www.jaxzoo.org/catering/RangeoftheJaguar.asp

I cannot find any connection at all to the Jacksonville Jaguars...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
The problem Chris is that you make conclusions that are not true... 

If I'm wrong, then where are all our great new interchanges with improved traffic flow?

How about our shiny new courthouse?

The plan allocated $100+ million for rapid transit. So where's is our great new commuter rail?

(And dropping $3m out of $100m collected on "BRT" doesn't count).

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
The zoo improvement was a worthy project.

No it wasn't.

It was an obvious promotional tie-in for a private enterprise, namely the Jaguars NFL team. And in case you hadn't noticed, Wayne Weaver was head of the board of directors of the Jacksonville Zoo at the time the Jaguar project was authorized...gee...wonder how that came to pass?

Pure Pork! If Weaver wanted it, he should have paid for it.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
Septic tank removal protects the river by removing pollution streams that turn the St Johns green.

I know Brooks Busey and the Riverkeeper folks. You want to put money on how much of this St. Johns cleanup/remediation has actually been completed? None.

Well, none due to the $75m we spent for it anyway. The only half-azzed progress was they authorized some silly grant program that pays out like $2k per family for removing a septic tank, when installing a sewer line and removing the septic system costs $15k+/-, including the permits paid to the City (which themselves cost more than the grant). And there's so much red tape, I'd be truly surprised if anybody really bothered with it. What happened to the $75 million?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
People DO use the equestrian center...

No they don't! It sits unused easily 80% of the time. Tell me the last time you heard of ANY event being advertised at the equestrian center. Two horse shows and one auction per year that maybe 200 people attend is NOT worth $25 million in public funds.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
Do you only approve of things you use? 

No, that's just reducio ad absurdum. I never said that.

What I do think is, when it comes to public funds, money should be spent where and how it benefits the most people. So when the day arrives when we have a road system that isn't FUBAR, and we have a viable public transit system, and our river isn't polluted, then I probably wouldn't mind wasting $10m on a Zoo exhibit that promotes an NFL team.

It's all about priorities...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
Cecil commerce is attracting businesses...

U kidding?

Yeah, they attract new businesses every so often, but at the same time they're losing the ones who were there at just as fast a rate (if not faster). They brought in LSI, and are losing Boeing. They brought in FedEx and lost Northrop Grumman. And I think they even lost FedEx now. The best thing they had going for them was the WalMart Distribution Center, and IIRC the City ran them off and they wound up building it in Putnam County.

Then there's FlightStar, the biggest employer over there, but they just moved over from JIA to Cecil to get cheaper land, so that didn't really bring any "new" benefit to the City. Same taxes, same revenue. It's a net "0".

Now they're pinning their hopes on this startup cargo-plane manufacturer, so we'll see how well that does in this economy, with DHL pulling out of the US market and UPS and FedEx cutting back.

The place has been a giant flop. EVEN THE CITY acknowledges it has wasted $180 million worth of BJP money, and can't make it work. They tried giving it back to the Navy, and when they didn't want it, now they're trying to give it away to private developers.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html

This thing is a big ole' floppity flop...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
The new library was desperately needed...

The old one was underutilized. I went often, and it was never crowded. I don't think the new one is worth knocking down historic architecture, leaving one more vacant building in downtown, and spending $100m on a replacement for something that wasn't fully utilized to begin with. The money should go to things that are over-utilized, or desperately needed. Like mass transit, roadway improvements, etc.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
The Hayden Burns was barely serviceable and the satellite branch refurbishments were also desperately needed. 

It wasn't "barely serviceable" at all! They had just put a new roof on it, and while I agree they could have made the bathrooms nicer, that sure wouldn't have cost $100m. Did you ever go in there? It was pretty nice. Stunning example of 1950s/60s architecture by the way.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
A new courthouse is also needed.

I'm at the courthouse a lot. It's busy, but handles the traffic well and has plenty of room. The only real justification for replacing it is to turn that extremely valuable waterfront property over for private development, and while I agree that's a positive move, I don't trust the way the City will handle it (no doubt just another giveaway like the Shipyards, and we'll wind up with nothing), and in any event that one goal is not worth $400+ million dollars.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
Finally here I agree with you.  The new building has been a giant boondoggle from the outset... the design... the cost... the delays.

Yeah, and the architecture we lost is irreplaceable. They leveled what? 10 city blocks? For a building we arguably don't need, and which in any event may never be built. We'll never get those structures back. Just more vacant lots now...

Like I said... would you have prefered aardvarks?  It is a great display and is the Winner of the coveted AZA “Exhibit of the Year” award.
http://www.aza.org/HonorsAwards/index.html

Pork??  I along with most people do not think so...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar

QuoteYou want to put money on how much of this St. Johns cleanup/remediation has actually been completed? None.

Really?  there must be actual facts somewhere??

QuoteNo they don't! It sits unused easily 80% of the time.

Really?? Hmmmm.... I am sure you have never been out there...

As I said... there are thousands of empty bases around the country caused by BRAC.  All have had challenges.  Are you suggesting just letting the weeds take over?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 10:00:16 AM
Like I said... would you have prefered aardvarks?

No, I would have preferred the money be spent in ways that reflect the needs of the community. I've already stated my position on this. When we have a road system that isn't FUBAR, a clean river, a viable public transportation system, and a downtown that isn't something out of a sci-fi movie, then I probably wouldn't mind spending $10 mil on a Zoo exhibit.

As I said before, it's about priorities.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 10:00:16 AM
Pork??  I along with most people do not think so...

Ya rite. Come on. Wayne Weaver heads the Zoo's board of directors, and gets the City to pay $10mil worth of BJP funds to build a Jaguar exhibit, and you don't consider that pork? You'd get along real well in Tallahassee...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 10:00:16 AM
Really?  there must be actual facts somewhere??

Why do I always have to do your googling for you?

There are thousands of articles on how polluted the Saint Johns is, and how little has been done to stop it. The City collected $75m under BJP to fund remediation projects, and to date the only thing to come out of it is a silly grant program. What's next, I say the sun rises in the east, and you're going to ask me for a link to that too?

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/120405/opl_20470332.shtml

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/bassmaster/conservation/news/story?page=b_con_pollution_StJohns_River_FL

http://www.stjohnsriverkeeper.org/ourWork_Media.asp

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 10:00:16 AM
Really?? Hmmmm.... I am sure you have never been out there...

That was my whole point! There's never any reason to go there, because there's never anything going on.

If you really want to argue this one, then just look at their 2009 Calendar:

http://www.jaxevents.com/events/jec/calendar.pdf

There are a WHOPPING 15 events for ALL OF 2009!!!! ROFL. And out of those 15, a pile of them are private events where some group rented out the center and only 30 people are going to go. This is simply NOT an acceptable use of $30m worth of public funds, considering how many better places it could have been spent....

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 10:00:16 AM
As I said... there are thousands of empty bases around the country caused by BRAC.  All have had challenges.

That doesn't mean the City has to jump in and buy it up, and waste $180m on failed initiatives, before throwing in the towel and then try and give their giant flop back to the Navy or private developers, does it?

I'm not getting the connection.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 10:00:16 AM
Are you suggesting just letting the weeds take over?

No, I'm suggesting that it should have been privately developed from the get-go, and left alone by the City. It was a gigantic waste of money.

Even the City has thrown in the towel on this one, and has been trying to give it away for years, this time to private developers. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing this one, when even COJ is running for the escape hatches.

Chris... someone will ALWAYS have a different set of priorities.  The road system will always need improving, the river will always need cleaning, and the transportation system will always need upgrades.  10 Million to expand the zoo is well within governments "priorities".  How about the Symphony?  Veterans Memorial?  These are hardly priorities using your comparisons... the river is till dirty...the road system fubar... Why in gods name did we build a coliseum or fund a Symphony?

Good job.  You found three links telling us that the St Johns is polluted.  What you need to do is back up your assertion that the septic tank removal program funded did not use the funds as intended.  We are all well aware that the St Johns is polluted. :)

QuoteThat was my whole point! There's never any reason to go there, because there's never anything going on.

You say the same thing about the Landing and Downtown... I am beginning to see a pattern... :)

QuoteThis is simply NOT an acceptable use of $30m worth of public funds

Are you now the arbiter of those funds?

Quoteand only 30 people are going to go

Again... do you have facts to back up your assertion that only 30 people will attend these events?

QuoteThat doesn't mean the City has to jump in and buy it up

Not sure they bought anything... I think the Feds turned it over to the city.

QuoteEven the City has thrown in the towel on this one, and has been trying to give it away for years, this time to private developers. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing this one, when even COJ is running for the escape hatches.

Another assertion that we have to just take your word for.  I mean it must be true... but...

http://www.jaa.aero/AirSys/CF.aspx

     
Tenants
 
Name Contact
Jacksonville JetPort  (904) 317-6550 
Boeing Company (904) 317-2400 
Division of Forestry (904) 573-4902 
Flightstar Aircraft Services, Inc.  (904) 741-0300 
Florida Army National Guard (904) 573-2300 
Florida Community College at Jacksonville (904) 997-2800 
Jacksonville Fire & Rescue  (904) 573-3179
Jet Turbine Service, Inc.  (904) 779-6881
Logistic Services International, LSI (904) 771-2100 
Fleet Readiness Center, South East (FRC/SE) (904) 317-5500
Robinson Van-Vuren & Associates, RVA (ATC) (904) 779-1805 
L3 Communications  (904) 771-3055
US Coast Guard (904) 778-0846

 

One question: What administration is managing the BJP currently?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
Chris... someone will ALWAYS have a different set of priorities.  The road system will always need improving, the river will always need cleaning, and the transportation system will always need upgrades.  10 Million to expand the zoo is well within governments "priorities". 

No it's not.

Not when you're already robbing peter to pay paul, not when you're facing massive education funding shortfalls, and not in this economy. I'm sorry, but that is not an intelligent or rational "priority".

Yeah, between educating the kids or giving a freebie to a billionaire NFL team owner, I know what my choice would be...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
How about the Symphony?  Veterans Memorial?  These are hardly priorities using your comparisons... the river is till dirty...the road system fubar... Why in gods name did we build a coliseum or fund a Symphony?

First off, the symphony had nothing whatsoever to do with the Better Jacksonville Plan, which is the subject of this discussion. So before we go any farther, please post evidence that links the Symphony with BJP...thanks!

And in case you hadn't noticed, the symphony had its public funding cut years ago, and is now privately funded. And since you apparently don't know how to use google, let me give you the link:

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=48992

So, since you brought it up, it appears that Mr. Weaver's handout did in fact get prioritized over the symphony.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
Good job.  You found three links telling us that the St Johns is polluted.

3 not enough for you?

http://www.savethestjohns.org/

http://www.nbbd.com/godo/StJohns.html

http://realtytimes.com/rtpages/19991230_river.htm

http://www.coj.net/About+Jacksonville/St+Johns+River.htm

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/northeast/stjohns/TMDL/tmdl.htm

Why do you keep asking for more links, when you evidently don't even read the ones I've posted?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
What you need to do is back up your assertion that the septic tank removal program funded did not use the funds as intended.  We are all well aware that the St Johns is polluted. :)

I don't need to do anything.

You have backed up none of your silly arguments with facts. If you're so convinced I'm wrong, then why don't you practice what you preach, and let's see you provide ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL to contradict what I've stated here.

So for starters, how about you provide proof that the BJP has funded all the initiatives for which it was authorized (including this one)? Oh wait, you can't, since it didn't happen...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
You say the same thing about the Landing and Downtown...

Yup, and I was right on that one too!

The Landing is a complete flop, and will remain so until the City makes good on its 20+ year old promise to provide parking.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM

QuoteThis is simply NOT an acceptable use of $30m worth of public funds

Are you now the arbiter of those funds?

As a voting taxpayer, yes, I am in fact an arbiter of those funds. In case you hadn't noticed, that's how our system of government works.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM

Quoteand only 30 people are going to go

Again... do you have facts to back up your assertion that only 30 people will attend these events?

Quit trying to side-step the point. You made several baseless and inaccurate assertions, and tried to say how the Equestrian Center is so busy, etc. I then posted their calendar showing that FOR THE ENTIRE YEAR, they only have 15 events planned, and none of them seem to be very large...

So now that you're eating crow, you're just trying to conveniently re-direct the discussion...

So answer me this. Do you think those 15 events are worth a $30 million dollar initial expenditure, plus millions in ongoing annual maintenance costs? If so, please provide evidence backing up your claims...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM

QuoteThat doesn't mean the City has to jump in and buy it up

Not sure they bought anything... I think the Feds turned it over to the city.

Are you denying the City has, to date, spent $180+ million on Cecil Field? If so, then please follow your own advice, and back it up with evidence. I've already posted evidence establishing that figure...as I'll address below:

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM

QuoteEven the City has thrown in the towel on this one, and has been trying to give it away for years, this time to private developers. I'm not sure how you can keep arguing this one, when even COJ is running for the escape hatches.

Another assertion that we have to just take your word for.  I mean it must be true... but...

Do you really not bother to read before replying? I already posted this in this very thread:

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html

And here's another one:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-14-baseclosing_x.htm

I'm correct, and nobody needs to "take my word for it". I have backed up what I've said, where's your evidence?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 11:51:14 AM
Tenants
 
Name Contact
Jacksonville JetPort  (904) 317-6550 
Boeing Company (904) 317-2400 
Division of Forestry (904) 573-4902 
Flightstar Aircraft Services, Inc.  (904) 741-0300 
Florida Army National Guard (904) 573-2300 
Florida Community College at Jacksonville (904) 997-2800 
Jacksonville Fire & Rescue  (904) 573-3179
Jet Turbine Service, Inc.  (904) 779-6881
Logistic Services International, LSI (904) 771-2100 
Fleet Readiness Center, South East (FRC/SE) (904) 317-5500
Robinson Van-Vuren & Associates, RVA (ATC) (904) 779-1805 
L3 Communications  (904) 771-3055
US Coast Guard (904) 778-0846

Again, you've got to be kidding me.

A: It's a 4400 acre $180 million dollar complex, and it only has a whopping 13 tenants. Thanks for proving my entire point for me.

B: And out of your list of 13 tenants, did you not notice that SEVEN of them are all government or City agencies? LMFAO!!!!!

So by your own acknowledgment, after $180 million dollars, the place has only a whopping 6 commercial tenants in it...

 :D Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse. :D

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 02:54:08 PM
:D Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse. :D

I'm correct about everything I posted.

And I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary, if you plan on continuing this discussion.  ::)

All your links do is tell us the water is polluted... the BJP plan attempted to cutail a portion of that pollution by devoting money to septic tank removal.  I think this was a worthy goal.  You apparently do not.

The symphony is an example Chris...  Are you saying government should not fund the arts because we still have potholes?  Arts, libraries, zoos, museums, etc are not necessities... but they most certainly do have a place in the funding food chain.

Your opinion that the Landing is a flop is just that Chris... an opinion

As for Cecil Field... 180 mil is a small cost for a facility like that.  It will repay itself over and over in the coming years.  The links you provided say nothing about Jax "throwing in the towel" or trying to get out from under it.  This one http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html shows how determined they are to make it work... the usatoday one says nothing regarding this discussion.

In short... I am eating no crow... but I do see a couple of black feathers sticking out of your mouth.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
All your links do is tell us the water is polluted... the BJP plan attempted to cutail a portion of that pollution by devoting money to septic tank removal.

Ok, so taking your own advice, where are your own links and evidence contradicting anything I've posted?

*crickets*chirping*

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
I think this was a worthy goal.  You apparently do not.

I think that, if you have a plan where $2.25 billion is allocated for city-wide improvements, ranging from silly stuff like an NFL-related Zoo exhibit, all the way up to basic infrastructure needs like roadways and interchanges, and then you run into funding problems and have to pick which projects to complete, then I'd prioritize it so the most necessary things get done first.

BJP's administrators plainly failed in that regard.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
The symphony is an example

No it's not an example. The symphony is a privately funded organization.

It has nothing to do with BJP, and isn't funded by the City. Apples and Oranges. End of story.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
Are you saying government should not fund the arts because we still have potholes?  Arts, libraries, zoos, museums, etc are not necessities... but they most certainly do have a place in the funding food chain.

If you only have X amount of dollars and you have to decide how to spread them around, then education, transportation, and infrastructure should clearly be top-priority. Not promotional Zoo-exhibits that should have been privately funded, and equestrian centers that sit empty most of the time.

You keep acting like you don't have to pick between things, but in reality, YOU DO. The BJP wasn't even close to completed, because they ran out of money. At a certain point, they began ignoring legitimate infrastructure and transportation needs, and funneling the money to insignificant crap that we could have done without.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
Your opinion that the Landing is a flop is just that Chris... an opinion

No it's a fact.

It's a commercial building, it's designed to make a profit. So...DOES IT? NO.

There you go. This is not a matter of opinion. If the thing can't turn a profit, it's a flop. End of story.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
As for Cecil Field... 180 mil is a small cost for a facility like that.  It will repay itself over and over in the coming years.

$180 million that is desperately needed for education and infrastructure, to make some silly office park that's a total flop and only has 6 tenants, is NOT a "small cost".

As to whether it will repay itself over and over in the coming years, they've been saying that since the early 1990s and it hasn't happened yet.

I guess you got your crystal ball out, Ms. Cleo?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
The links you provided say nothing about Jax "throwing in the towel" or trying to get out from under it. 

Then explain this:

"After consultations with the Jacksonville Airport Authority, Mayor (John) Peyton has committed to the BRAC Commission that necessary property issues concerning current tenants at Cecil Field can be resolved to permit complete turnover of all property to the (Department of Defense)," Bush wrote.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/4798927/detail.html

Oh yeah, really sounds like the City was really trying to hold onto Cecil with clenched fists...NOT. LMFAO  ::)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
This one http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2009/01/12/daily4.html shows how determined they are to make it work... the usatoday one says nothing regarding this discussion.

They're so 'determined' that they tried giving it back to the Navy, and are now "seeking strategic alternatives" with private developers?

Read between the lines, man. You may as well stick a fork in it...it's done. Next step is a private giveaway.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 03:19:57 PM
In short... I am eating no crow... but I do see a couple of black feathers sticking out of your mouth.

Only if you happen to be looking in the mirror. And I'm still waiting on any of YOUR evidence...

(http://www.sondrak.com/archive/skpics/crickets%20chirping,jpg)

The precursor to the BJP was the River City Renaisance under Mayor Ed Austin.  It paid for the construction of the T-U Center for the Performing Arts, minus the T-U's contribution.  The symphony plays there and has since it opened.  I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility. But whatever it might be, it is but a drop in the bucket compared to the debt service and operating expenses on a building of that size. 

So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.  Bring jobs to the area was the entire purpose of the city taking possession in the first place, to replace those lost when the Navy left.

The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million.  The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

The Hayden Burns library is smaller than the library in my birthplace, Florence SC, population 130,000.  Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

One of the points that BJP has not delivered was the Atlantic / Kernan intersection - construction has started.  Down the road, Beach / Kernan has opened (although work continues).

You really seem hung up on the "Jaguar" exhibit.  Would you be just as incensed if the recently opened Asian exhibit was built with $10M BJP money?  Or the Great Apes?

So, first, you say:

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility.

Then, you say:

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

You just acknowledged that you lack any information to make the determination that the symphony is "subsidized" via its use of the TU Center, and yet you insist on trying to make that conclusion anyway. Why? LMFAO

And the rest of your argument is utter B.S. The Symphony is not the only user of the TU Center. The Center hosts concerts, performances, corporate conventions, plays, you name it, for a variety of events and promoters. I wouldn't even say the Symphony isn't even the "main" user of the TU Center, as the amount of time they utilize the building for performances is dwarfed by other uses.

The TU center brings in lots of revenue from a variety of events, I've been to several big-name concerts there, including Barry Manilow. I'm sure the City is well-paid for those, not to mention the offset against construction costs they obtained from the TU for the naming rights. In all likelihood, the Center probably turns a PROFIT.

So using that as some back-door to argue that the Symphony is thus subsidized is ludicrous. The reason the Symphony doesn't pay the entire carrying costs of the building is because they don't use it exclusively.

The City didn't intend the TU center to be a symphony hall, it was meant from the get-go to be a multi-purpose public venue. And that's what it's used for. If the Symphony got to collect all the revenues from ALL uses of the building, they'd probably be more than willing to pay the rent. But I doubt the City would want that.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? This is about dollars...

The City wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy, because they did an extensive planning study and realized that the economic benefit they would obtain by giving that gigantic flop back to the Navy exceeded the benefit obtained by continuing to operate it as Cecil Commerce Center, even though it would mean letting 4500 acres of industrial property fall off the tax rolls (Feds don't pay County taxes), and writing off their entire $180 million investment.

That really doesn't say much for the prospects of the Commerce Center, does it?

If the Commerce Center had been anywhere close to the success the City had all along claimed it would be, then the economic benefit of keeping it in that use would have outweighed the 12,000 jobs the Navy would bring in. But it wasn't, and it didn't.

And now the *new* plan is to let it go to private developers. So again, they're not exactly holding onto Cecil with clenched fists, are they?

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million. 

$300+ million is still way too much. And what happened to the $190 million Delaney promised? And even that was still way too much...

As a point of comparison, the gigantic, palatial, and (unlike Duval's version) TIMELY COMPLETED, Federal Courthouse cost $84 million.

You don't see a problem here? Even if you take the original estimates, they're still hideously inflated.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

That's not true.

That was one of the larger ones, but there were multiple other structures in that area dating back to before 1920, which were all demolished to clear land for the phantom courthouse. I've lived here a decade, I remember them.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

I'm there often, and it handles the capacity fine.

But my point is: If these were swingtimes and we weren't facing massive education and infrastructure shortfalls, then I'd probably say go for it. But the way things are, I'm sorry, but the current one should suffice for the time being, and the funds should be reapplied where they're really needed. Like in schools...

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

Are you kidding? All BJP did was build a library and the Veterans arena. The City Hall had nothing to do with BJP, neither did the TU Center. Those were built PRIOR to BJP, and would have been built anyway. WTF is your point?

And since when do you have to agree to drop $30 million on a virtually unused Equestrian Center, and $10 million on a Zoo exhibit, etc., etc., just in order to build a new public building?

I got a newsflash for you: If you want a new courthouse, you can just build a courthouse, without attaching it to some giant and poorly managed $2.25+ billion dollar spending extravaganza. Novel idea around here, I know...

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

Did you check out the calendar I posted for the Equestrian Center? They sure aren't bringing in much....

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 07, 2009, 06:26:43 PM
You really seem hung up on the "Jaguar" exhibit.  Would you be just as incensed if the recently opened Asian exhibit was built with $10M BJP money?  Or the Great Apes?

Yes, I would.

When you have teachers being laid off, 20-year County employees being laid off, and schools asking parents to bring toilet paper and supplies because they can't afford them, then clearly that money could be better spent elsewhere...

So just what exactly are you arguing Chris? 

That the BLP did not fulfill all its goals?  CHECK... I agree
That BJP fulfilled NONE of it goals?  Oops... I disagree.
That BJP wasted some money?... BINGO... right there with ya bro.
That BJP was a complete and total waste of time and money?... whoa... not me

Here is the wikipedia again for the BJP...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

I happen to agree with your republican ideas about tax and spend.  Conservatives like you and I hate being taxed for wasteful projects and understand that giving more money to government is just giving em license to spend more.

We agree on more than we disagree Chris...  ;)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 07:04:30 PM
So just what exactly are you arguing Chris? 

That the BLP did not fulfill all its goals?  CHECK... I agree
That BJP fulfilled NONE of it goals?  Oops... I disagree.
That BJP wasted some money?... BINGO... right there with ya bro.
That BJP was a complete and total waste of time and money?... whoa... not me

Here is the wikipedia again for the BJP...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Jacksonville_Plan

I happen to agree with your republican ideas about tax and spend.  Conservatives like you and I hate being taxed for wasteful projects and understand that giving more money to government is just giving em license to spend more.

We agree on more than we disagree Chris...  ;)

I am a weirdo, politically. My ideas about the size of government and spending and taxation run very conservative, but my social ideas are liberal. I don't see the sense in wasteful spending, and I don't see the sense in trying to dictate how everyone else lives their life either. So neither major party has really been a 100% a fit for me.

And no, you're right, I'm not saying the BJP accomplished nothing, because that's not true. And in the context of the economic boomtimes that existed when it was all planned, then I have to admit the Courthouse and Library probably made sense.

But my dislike for BJP revolves around 4 things:

1 - They canceled (or delayed so long that they may as well have been canceled) the interchange and road projects, including some of the biggest bottlenecks in the city.

2 - Out of $100m slotted for building public transit, they did nothing except repainting some lanes on Blanding to be part of "BRT", at a cost of what? $2m-3m. Big whoop. The rest of the money was never invested and, I suspect, is gone.

3 - Cecil Commerce Center and the Equestrian Center are wastes. That property should have just gone straight to private developers. If that had happened, the private guys would be making money by now, and the City would still have a spare $180m. It's a win-win, and that was the proper way to handle it. But as it sits, it's a boondoggle.

4 - The courthouse. I don't even need to explain this one. I'm just sick of even watching that mess unfold at this point. It is sickening that you can waste that kind of money, before we've even turned a shovelful of dirt.

The only thing that gets my gander worse than the courthouse is the Shipyards...I still wanna know where I sign up for my free $40million?

But other than those 4 things, the rest of it has probably been helpful.

The city was not laying people off when it invested in the zoo. I think your wrong about the zoo as not a worthy investment in our quality of life. I do think it is an opinion issue and it is hard to win that argument. I love the direction the zoo has taken and the Jaguar exhibit was the catalyst for that. The budget problems this city is experiencing have not the result of investing too much in community projects.

I do believe not investing in education has hurt Duvals revenue base. Young families such as mine take our tax money south to better schools. I have now decided on private school and want to come back to Duval where my business is. Most of my neighbors work in Duval but pay there property taxes and sales taxes south of the county line. Schools are almost exclusively the reason. Any county visionary enough to have used this year as a chance to prove they were serious about education and found the money would have become the target of those families.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 07, 2009, 02:56:03 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 02:54:08 PM
:D Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse. :D

I'm correct about everything I posted.

And I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary, if you plan on continuing this discussion.  ::)

wrong...for example you ask about several interchanges as if they haven't happened....a quick drive around town would show that Atlantic/Southside was finished last year....and as you noted, Beach/Kernan is just about done...the BJP is a 10+ year program and we're only in Year 8

Any questions?

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 07, 2009, 10:46:06 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 07, 2009, 02:56:03 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 07, 2009, 02:54:08 PM
:D Calm down Chris... you ARE correct about the courthouse. :D

I'm correct about everything I posted.

And I'd love to see any evidence you have to the contrary, if you plan on continuing this discussion.  ::)

wrong...for example you ask about several interchanges as if they haven't happened....a quick drive around town would show that Atlantic/Southside was finished last year....and as you noted, Beach/Kernan is just about done...the BJP is a 10+ year program and we're only in Year 8

Any questions?

Are you serious?

There were 7 new interchanges that were supposed to be built, and by year 8 of what's only a 10-year plan, you're acknowledging that they've only started two of them.

How exactly does that make me wrong?

Meanwhile, the Jaguar exhibit went up quick, so did the Equestrian Center, and they've had no trouble wasting money on the phantom Courthouse that we'll probably never see in our lifetime, or spending almost $200m on facilities for Cecil Commerce Center's whopping 6 tenants.

Look, I'm sorry if you don't like my statements, but I've more than backed up my position with evidence. Large swaths of this spending program have been so poorly handled that it's sickening. And with the current state of things, that wasted money would have really come in handy as we're laying off teachers and county employees...

QuoteAnd with the current state of things, that wasted money would have really come in handy as we're laying off teachers and county employees...

County employees and teachers were never part of the plan.  They cannot add new things to the plan if they have not finished the the original list of planned things.  I think the key word here is "plan"... not mandate or requirement.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 08, 2009, 08:37:28 AM

QuoteAnd with the current state of things, that wasted money would have really come in handy as we're laying off teachers and county employees...

County employees and teachers were never part of the plan.  They cannot add new things to the plan if they have not finished the the original list of planned things.  I think the key word here is "plan"... not mandate or requirement.

Well...then we get further down to the root of why I think our local government is out of whack...

Why is there this need to spend every dime available? I don't get it.

$h!t happens in life, at every level, including the government level. All these counties and cities who were thrown into a budgetary death spiral just because of a 10% drop in tax revenues really boggle my mind. There is nothing saved for a rainy day. There is no emergency cash pool. There is no "excess" revenue in the annual budgets, to where the City can survive as-is if revenues fall off. They spend every damned dime!

Then the economy turns south, which shouldn't be a real surprise since it's cyclical, and every day you start reading about firing teachers, laying off county employees, closing schools, scrapping needed infrastructure projects, etc.

What I'm saying is, it wouldn't kill them to not spend every dime of BJP money. The referendum could be re-presented, authorizing them to use any remaining funds for education, etc. Who's not going to vote for that, instead of a ridiculous $400+ million dollar courthouse?

But instead, it's always a game to figure out how to spend every possible dime, otherwise people might want you to lower taxes...

QuoteWell...then we get further down to the root of why I think our local government is out of whack...

The state and feds are just as bad but on a much larger scale.  Give em more money... they will find something to spend it on.  It is inevitable.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 08, 2009, 09:13:44 AM

QuoteWell...then we get further down to the root of why I think our local government is out of whack...

The state and feds are just as bad but on a much larger scale.  Give em more money... they will find something to spend it on.  It is inevitable.

I know, it's so irritating. I think they are all afraid that, if they don't spend every penny, people will say "Great, you obviously don't need all of it, so let's lower taxes..." The whole setup just promotes waste.

I think people are smarter than government gives them credit for. If they said "We need to establish a reserve fund for a rainy day, and there also needs to be X% of tax revenue that is "surplus" so that, in the event an economic swing occurs, we don't have to fire everybody and cancel projects", then I honestly think people would understand and be happy about it.

But politicians no longer respect their constituents, and their constituents no longer respect them either. It's just a big game, that we're all paying for...

because it takes about 8-10 years just to get through the planning, design, permitting, and ROW acquisition phases....so even if the tax program is only 10 years long, it will take more like 15 years to get everything constructed!

and so you don't continue thinking this is a Jacksonville problem, the same thing has happened in Tallahassee and Pinellas County with their $0.01 salex tax projects.

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 08, 2009, 09:55:42 PM
because it takes about 8-10 years just to get through the planning, design, permitting, and ROW acquisition phases....so even if the tax program is only 10 years long, it will take more like 15 years to get everything constructed!

and so you don't continue thinking this is a Jacksonville problem, the same thing has happened in Tallahassee and Pinellas County with their $0.01 salex tax projects.

It doesn't take 10 years to build a bridge...

But the "building" is only one part of the entire project.  It took about 4 years of construction work to build the new Fuller Warren.  Buying the needed land - right of way - usually takes one to two years.  Design, is probably another couple years.  Getting permits ... that can take years, say 2.  4+2+2+2=10

That big interchange project where I-10 runs into I-95 is about a six year construction project.

I don't think tufsu was saying it was impossible, I think he was refuting the comment that all the BJP should have been finished already.

Regarding the assertion that voters would embrace politicians who voted to establish a reserve fund.  Both the City and State elected officials (Council and Legislature) have been raiding - using - reserve funds to meet current expenses for the last few years.  The current Legislature is doing just that again this year.  All so they don't have to raise taxes because the cost of providing services has increased.  Or not have to reduce or eliminate "wasteful" services that the voters like to have.  And they get re-elected running on "no tax" platforms.  So, I do not share your optimism that voters would "be understand and be happy about it."

The folks on this board might embrace that (most of us), but we are not the "average" voter (read the TU forums for comparison).

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 08, 2009, 10:25:31 PM
But the "building" is only one part of the entire project.  It took about 4 years of construction work to build the new Fuller Warren.  Buying the needed land - right of way - usually takes one to two years.  Design, is probably another couple years.  Getting permits ... that can take years, say 2.  4+2+2+2=10

That big interchange project where I-10 runs into I-95 is about a six year construction project.

I don't think tufsu was saying it was impossible, I think he was refuting the comment that all the BJP should have been finished already.

Lol, who's even bothering with "finished" at this point. For all but 2 of the 7 interchanges, I'd settle for "started"...

I think you need to reserve as much of your wrath for the folks employed by the former administration who came up with lowball cost estimates on the BJP projects - as you have on the current administration (and JTA) for failing to complete the projects.

Say your brother-in-law, using a $9.99 "home architect" computer program on his PC estimated your new house would cost $100,000 to build, so you budget $100,000.
Then you hire a construction contractor to start working on the house, and discover you need to buy some more property because it won't fit on the lot you have now.  Then you discover it will actually cost $175,000 to build.  Who is at fault?  Your construction contractor because he can't deliver on the unrealistic budget?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 08, 2009, 11:19:18 PM
I think you need to reserve as much of your wrath for the folks employed by the former administration who came up with lowball cost estimates on the BJP projects - as you have on the current administration (and JTA) for failing to complete the projects.

Say your brother-in-law, using a $9.99 "home architect" computer program on his PC estimated your new house would cost $100,000 to build, so you budget $100,000.
Then you hire a construction contractor to start working on the house, and discover you need to buy some more property because it won't fit on the lot you have now.  Then you discover it will actually cost $175,000 to build.  Who is at fault?  Your construction contractor because he can't deliver on the unrealistic budget?

You know, I thought about that. And I was even inclined to feel that way at first...

But then the feds came along and built their huge 20-story Federal Courthouse for $84 million, and got it done under-budget and ahead-of-schedule. And that kind of changed my perspective, and took away the benefit of the doubt I was giving the City.

Judging by comparable projects that were actually completed, the original Courthouse budget of $190 million should have been MORE than sufficient, let alone $400 million. That's absolutely insane...

I hope my post did not seem to be absolving the current Administration of blame for cost over-runs and delays - far from it.  However, little attention seems to be paid to the low-ball cost estimates in the original BJP, made by the prior Administration.  If their estimates had been more realistic - and included all costs (such as the property needed), there would be two results: the BJP list would have been shorter, and there would be fewer cost over-runs.

We should have had the Federal Court House estimators work on the BJP list!

QuoteThat big interchange project where I-10 runs into I-95 is about a six year construction project.

Actually, the side ramps over I-95 were built in the 1980s/90s, well before the interchange money was available, as part of a daisy growing project by FDOT, or some other craziness, all I remember was they were there long before the interchange project.

QuoteIf their estimates had been more realistic - and included all costs (such as the property needed)

Well, I have a story for you. You know how your brother-in-law hires a contractor who says he can do the work, that he knows in front of him for 100,000? He comes back to you in 6 months and says that the project will be 175,000, because the ground below is contaminated and the dirt has to be hauled off to be burned, because it is contaminated with Ash from 40 years ago? Something that the guys who sat in the administration offices were never asked to review, because the federal EPA guidelines at the time were not the same as they are today? You mean, those kinds of costs that respond to bonehead DC codes that get enacted from the time the beancounters propose a project, to when it gets implemented?

Quote from: stephendare on March 15, 2009, 03:55:22 PM
audrey is awesome

Who is she?  Who was she?  Who does she hope to be?

Heights Unknown

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 07, 2009, 06:46:03 PM
So, first, you say:

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility.

Then, you say:

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

You just acknowledged that you lack any information to make the determination that the symphony is "subsidized" via its use of the TU Center, and yet you insist on trying to make that conclusion anyway. Why? LMFAO

And the rest of your argument is utter B.S. The Symphony is not the only user of the TU Center. The Center hosts concerts, performances, corporate conventions, plays, you name it, for a variety of events and promoters. I wouldn't even say the Symphony isn't even the "main" user of the TU Center, as the amount of time they utilize the building for performances is dwarfed by other uses.

The TU center brings in lots of revenue from a variety of events, I've been to several big-name concerts there, including Barry Manilow. I'm sure the City is well-paid for those, not to mention the offset against construction costs they obtained from the TU for the naming rights. In all likelihood, the Center probably turns a PROFIT.

So using that as some back-door to argue that the Symphony is thus subsidized is ludicrous. The reason the Symphony doesn't pay the entire carrying costs of the building is because they don't use it exclusively.

The City didn't intend the TU center to be a symphony hall, it was meant from the get-go to be a multi-purpose public venue. And that's what it's used for. If the Symphony got to collect all the revenues from ALL uses of the building, they'd probably be more than willing to pay the rent. But I doubt the City would want that.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? This is about dollars...

The City wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy, because they did an extensive planning study and realized that the economic benefit they would obtain by giving that gigantic flop back to the Navy exceeded the benefit obtained by continuing to operate it as Cecil Commerce Center, even though it would mean letting 4500 acres of industrial property fall off the tax rolls (Feds don't pay County taxes), and writing off their entire $180 million investment.

That really doesn't say much for the prospects of the Commerce Center, does it?

If the Commerce Center had been anywhere close to the success the City had all along claimed it would be, then the economic benefit of keeping it in that use would have outweighed the 12,000 jobs the Navy would bring in. But it wasn't, and it didn't.

And now the *new* plan is to let it go to private developers. So again, they're not exactly holding onto Cecil with clenched fists, are they?

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million. 

$300+ million is still way too much. And what happened to the $190 million Delaney promised? And even that was still way too much...

As a point of comparison, the gigantic, palatial, and (unlike Duval's version) TIMELY COMPLETED, Federal Courthouse cost $84 million.

You don't see a problem here? Even if you take the original estimates, they're still hideously inflated.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

That's not true.

That was one of the larger ones, but there were multiple other structures in that area dating back to before 1920, which were all demolished to clear land for the phantom courthouse. I've lived here a decade, I remember them.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

I'm there often, and it handles the capacity fine.

But my point is: If these were swingtimes and we weren't facing massive education and infrastructure shortfalls, then I'd probably say go for it. But the way things are, I'm sorry, but the current one should suffice for the time being, and the funds should be reapplied where they're really needed. Like in schools...

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

Are you kidding? All BJP did was build a library and the Veterans arena. The City Hall had nothing to do with BJP, neither did the TU Center. Those were built PRIOR to BJP, and would have been built anyway. WTF is your point?

And since when do you have to agree to drop $30 million on a virtually unused Equestrian Center, and $10 million on a Zoo exhibit, etc., etc., just in order to build a new public building?

I got a newsflash for you: If you want a new courthouse, you can just build a courthouse, without attaching it to some giant and poorly managed $2.25+ billion dollar spending extravaganza. Novel idea around here, I know...

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

Did you check out the calendar I posted for the Equestrian Center? They sure aren't bringing in much....

The Symphony's budget is not huge, and goes primarily to pay the artists. I assure you whatever token payment that they MIGHT be making would not begin to cover the debt on a very expensive special use facility, no matter what percentage of the time they use it.  Sinc ethey give performances on a continual basis every year, they are a major user of the facility and probably the biggest single user of it.

I assure you that facility does not make a profit. The percentage of convention centers, performing arts complexs and the like nationwide that  turn a profit is probaly less than 1 %.  That is why the PRIVATE sector does not build them.

About 70-75% of the BJP was road improvements, the bulk of the remainder went the the BASEBALL PARK (which you haven't acknowledged ) the Veterans arena, the Main library, the branch libraries, the Equestrian center, and the courthouse.  ALL OF THOSE have been completed as promised except the courthouse. 

Construction costs, particularly steel and concrete increased tremendously between the time the vote was taken and the time many of the projects were bid.  That is the reason for the delays on the road work and to a significant dgeree, on the courthouse.  Unnecessary delays (like pulling the plug on the original contractor) produced more cost increases on the courthouse.  I think that was a mistake but that doesn't undermind the value of the BJP as a whole. 

I SAID in my post that the City Hall and T-U center WERE BEFORE the BJP.  Obvioiusly, you didn't read my original post carefully.  I said OTHER than those, the public facilities (Arena, baseball field, library, courthouse, etc. ) were in  old and outdated, which they were.   

You are conveniently forgeting that hundreds of miles of road resurfacing and sidewalks have been completed.

Without the BJP, there would not have been the private investment in DT that occurred earlier in this decade.  The developer of the Strand and Peninsula told me as much. Private money follows public investment.

The city was tempted to return Cecil field to the Navy because it (in theory) would have happened quickly.  The current redevelopment plan from the very beginning was expected to take many years.   The reality was that too many things had changed since the Navy left (development had moved closer) and Virginia Beach would have keep the decision in the courts/congress for years.     

Cecil is a tremendous asset that if properly marketed and improved would prove its worth.  Unfortunately this current administration has gutted and demoralized the JEDC.  Despite that, Cecil was on the short list for several big projects including an auto plant and a aeronautical plant.  If the city did not have Cecil, would it have even had a suitable site to market?  There are none that I know of that are of that size, that have the level of infrastructure.   

If the equestrian center holds 15 events, that can be very impactful if thousands of people show up for each one.  Do you have any information on the impact?   There are plenty of cities that invest millions in sports complexes dedicated to softball, baseball, soccer, tennis, etc.  If there wasn't a impact to economy from motel/restuarant/retail, they would not do it.  The Equestrian Center does the same thing.  The Jaguars have 8 home games in a 200mm facility?  What impact does that have?  The number of events alone does not reveal the whole picture. 

The BJP was BOND money, public debt. You don't use debt to pay operational expenses like teacher salaries, and toilet paper.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 18, 2009, 09:25:33 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 07, 2009, 06:46:03 PM
So, first, you say:

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
I don't know what, if any, payment the symphony pays to use the facility.

Then, you say:

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
So, yes the symphony is publicly subsidized to a very broad extent.

You just acknowledged that you lack any information to make the determination that the symphony is "subsidized" via its use of the TU Center, and yet you insist on trying to make that conclusion anyway. Why? LMFAO

And the rest of your argument is utter B.S. The Symphony is not the only user of the TU Center. The Center hosts concerts, performances, corporate conventions, plays, you name it, for a variety of events and promoters. I wouldn't even say the Symphony isn't even the "main" user of the TU Center, as the amount of time they utilize the building for performances is dwarfed by other uses.

The TU center brings in lots of revenue from a variety of events, I've been to several big-name concerts there, including Barry Manilow. I'm sure the City is well-paid for those, not to mention the offset against construction costs they obtained from the TU for the naming rights. In all likelihood, the Center probably turns a PROFIT.

So using that as some back-door to argue that the Symphony is thus subsidized is ludicrous. The reason the Symphony doesn't pay the entire carrying costs of the building is because they don't use it exclusively.

The City didn't intend the TU center to be a symphony hall, it was meant from the get-go to be a multi-purpose public venue. And that's what it's used for. If the Symphony got to collect all the revenues from ALL uses of the building, they'd probably be more than willing to pay the rent. But I doubt the City would want that.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The city wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy because it wanted the thousands of jobs that doing so would bring.

Let's cut to the chase, shall we? This is about dollars...

The City wanted to give Cecil back to the Navy, because they did an extensive planning study and realized that the economic benefit they would obtain by giving that gigantic flop back to the Navy exceeded the benefit obtained by continuing to operate it as Cecil Commerce Center, even though it would mean letting 4500 acres of industrial property fall off the tax rolls (Feds don't pay County taxes), and writing off their entire $180 million investment.

That really doesn't say much for the prospects of the Commerce Center, does it?

If the Commerce Center had been anywhere close to the success the City had all along claimed it would be, then the economic benefit of keeping it in that use would have outweighed the 12,000 jobs the Navy would bring in. But it wasn't, and it didn't.

And now the *new* plan is to let it go to private developers. So again, they're not exactly holding onto Cecil with clenched fists, are they?

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The courthouse has been a fiasco, but it spun out of control after Delaney left office.  If the original design had been pursued, it would be completed now, and would have cost around $300 million. 

$300+ million is still way too much. And what happened to the $190 million Delaney promised? And even that was still way too much...

As a point of comparison, the gigantic, palatial, and (unlike Duval's version) TIMELY COMPLETED, Federal Courthouse cost $84 million.

You don't see a problem here? Even if you take the original estimates, they're still hideously inflated.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The ONLY architecture of note lost in the courthouse site was the old Southern Bell building.  The vast majority of the six blocks (the seventh block, the old Federal building, is being preserved and rehabbed) were already vacant.

That's not true.

That was one of the larger ones, but there were multiple other structures in that area dating back to before 1920, which were all demolished to clear land for the phantom courthouse. I've lived here a decade, I remember them.

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The need for a new courthouse is self evident.  The current building was built in the 1950's.  How much have the population and court docket grown since then?

I'm there often, and it handles the capacity fine.

But my point is: If these were swingtimes and we weren't facing massive education and infrastructure shortfalls, then I'd probably say go for it. But the way things are, I'm sorry, but the current one should suffice for the time being, and the funds should be reapplied where they're really needed. Like in schools...

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
Before the BJP, virtually every public building in Jacksonville except the T-U center and the new City Hall, was outdated by decades, unattractive and an embarassment.  Give me a break.         

Are you kidding? All BJP did was build a library and the Veterans arena. The City Hall had nothing to do with BJP, neither did the TU Center. Those were built PRIOR to BJP, and would have been built anyway. WTF is your point?

And since when do you have to agree to drop $30 million on a virtually unused Equestrian Center, and $10 million on a Zoo exhibit, etc., etc., just in order to build a new public building?

I got a newsflash for you: If you want a new courthouse, you can just build a courthouse, without attaching it to some giant and poorly managed $2.25+ billion dollar spending extravaganza. Novel idea around here, I know...

Quote from: vicupstate on April 07, 2009, 06:02:46 PM
The value of the Equestrian Center is based on it's economic impact.  How many hotel rooms and restaurants seats does it fill?  That is the true measure of it's worth.  15 events for a highly specialized property of that nature is not unusual.  The question is, how much money does it bring into the community annually.   

Did you check out the calendar I posted for the Equestrian Center? They sure aren't bringing in much....

The Symphony's budget is not huge, and goes primarily to pay the artists. I assure you whatever token payment that they MIGHT be making would not begin to cover the debt on a very expensive special use facility, no matter what percentage of the time they use it.  Sinc ethey give performances on a continual basis every year, they are a major user of the facility and probably the biggest single user of it.

I assure you that facility does not make a profit. The percentage of convention centers, performing arts complexs and the like nationwide that  turn a profit is probaly less than 1 %.  That is why the PRIVATE sector does not build them.

About 70-75% of the BJP was road improvements, the bulk of the remainder went the the BASEBALL PARK (which you haven't acknowledged ) the Veterans arena, the Main library, the branch libraries, the Equestrian center, and the courthouse.  ALL OF THOSE have been completed as promised except the courthouse. 

Construction costs, particularly steel and concrete increased tremendously between the time the vote was taken and the time many of the projects were bid.  That is the reason for the delays on the road work and to a significant dgeree, on the courthouse.  Unnecessary delays (like pulling the plug on the original contractor) produced more cost increases on the courthouse.  I think that was a mistake but that doesn't undermind the value of the BJP as a whole. 

I SAID in my post that the City Hall and T-U center WERE BEFORE the BJP.  Obvioiusly, you didn't read my original post carefully.  I said OTHER than those, the public facilities (Arena, baseball field, library, courthouse, etc. ) were in  old and outdated, which they were.   

You are conveniently forgeting that hundreds of miles of road resurfacing and sidewalks have been completed.

Without the BJP, there would not have been the private investment in DT that occurred earlier in this decade.  The developer of the Strand and Peninsula told me as much. Private money follows public investment.

The city was tempted to return Cecil field to the Navy because it (in theory) would have happened quickly.  The current redevelopment plan from the very beginning was expected to take many years.   The reality was that too many things had changed since the Navy left (development had moved closer) and Virginia Beach would have keep the decision in the courts/congress for years.     

Cecil is a tremendous asset that if properly marketed and improved would prove its worth.  Unfortunately this current administration has gutted and demoralized the JEDC.  Despite that, Cecil was on the short list for several big projects including an auto plant and a aeronautical plant.  If the city did not have Cecil, would it have even had a suitable site to market?  There are none that I know of that are of that size, that have the level of infrastructure.   

If the equestrian center holds 15 events, that can be very impactful if thousands of people show up for each one.  Do you have any information on the impact?   There are plenty of cities that invest millions in sports complexes dedicated to softball, baseball, soccer, tennis, etc.  If there wasn't a impact to economy from motel/restuarant/retail, they would not do it.  The Equestrian Center does the same thing.  The Jaguars have 8 home games in a 200mm facility?  What impact does that have?  The number of events alone does not reveal the whole picture. 

The BJP was BOND money, public debt. You don't use debt to pay operational expenses like teacher salaries, and toilet paper.

Look...

1: The symphony isn't the exclusive user of the TU Center, and isn't even the 'main' user of the TU Center. It wasn't built exclusively for them, and isn't used exclusively by them.

So exactly why the hell would they pay for all of it? Your argument makes ZERO sense.

I'm sure the SO would be just as happy renting space in the Florida Theatre on an as-needed basis, if it came to that. The City made the decision to build the TU Center for a variety of reasons, not just the SO.

2: Cecil is deadweight and not a tremendous asset. It is a real cost to taxpayers, loses millions annually, and cost us hundreds of millions just to get it where it could lose millions annually. It's a boondoggle.

3: 15 events at an equestion center that only holds <1000 people isn't paying any bills in this city...hate to break it to you. It's not like it's a stadium that seats 100k people, your comparison is pretty silly.

4: I'm not conveniently forgetting street resurfacing or whatnot, but that's routine maintenance and would have happened anyway. Where are our 7 new interchanges, and our new commuter rail, again?

Exactly.

5: If you have such an issue with me rebutting the portions of your post dealing with the outdated public buildings that were, with the exception of the library, all replaced BEFORE the BJP, then why the heck did you throw it in there? So now you're acknowledging they have nothing to do with the discussion, which was my point to begin with....

So I guess we agree on something!

6: I haven't refused to acknowledge the Veterans' Arena, I mentioned it earlier as the only thing of substance to be completed for all this money. I don't see what your point about the baseball stadium is, we didn't really need a new one when the old Wolfson Park was more than adequate. If you can't fill a smaller one, why build a bigger one?

And I'm sorry, but Cecil is a complete disaster, the Equestrian Center is a total waste, the baseball park is a total waste, the Veterans' Arena I've already said is probably useful, but the library money would have been better spent renovating the original library, the courhouse hasn't even started yet and we're down how many millions, 5 of the 7 new interchanges have been scrapped for lack of funding, and we don't have any mass transit improvements for the $75mil allocated to that.

So let's do some math:

For $2.2 BILLION dollars, we have:

-A new library
-A new arena
-2 out of 7 interchanges
-An equestrian center that almost nobody uses and costs $$$$ to operate
-A Commerce Center that almost nobody uses and costs $$$$ to operate

We got almost no value for the money there...

QuoteAnd I'm sorry, but Cecil is a complete disaster, the Equestrian Center is a total waste, the baseball park is a total waste,

Cecil is a tremendous asset, the equestrian center is a gem, and the ball park is one of the best in the nation.  Clearly money well spent... IMO. :)

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 20, 2009, 04:36:05 PM

QuoteAnd I'm sorry, but Cecil is a complete disaster, the Equestrian Center is a total waste, the baseball park is a total waste,

Cecil is a tremendous asset, the equestrian center is a gem, and the ball park is one of the best in the nation.  Clearly money well spent... IMO. :)

In the specific case of the baseball park (which I do have to admit is pretty nice), how does that bring any new fans to the Suns? The same people who liked them before are going to like them now. So I guess I have a hard time understanding why, when every time I went to the old one it wasn't full, we needed a new bigger (and much more expensive) one...

I guess maybe we are using different measuring sticks on this stuff? I guess I just like to see tax dollars applied in a method that provides the most benefit to the greatest number of people.

But the equestrian center with its whopping 1 event a month, and our multi-hundred-million-dollar Commerce Center with it's whopping 6 tenants, is certainly money that could have been much better spent elsewhere.

QuoteI guess maybe we are using different measuring sticks on this stuff?

Of course we are... everybody does!  One person would spend all the money to gather up the homeless and provide em all new diggs... another would add 2 lanes to every highway and road in jax while another would lay rails with streetcars and commuter trains everywhere.

The difference here is all the projects mentioned were in the BJP... we voted for it!  We can agree that some projects did not get done or are way over budget but these other items were part of the ...plan...

This city could use more planning if you ask me...

glorious johnson

There's a lot of interesting thoughts in this forum.  Is anyone here planning to run for mayor?  You can actually make a difference, be in charge, and actually have a chance to change things. 

Dang.  Every time this thread goes to the top I get all anxious thinking that there might be some new development happening like right NOW........)sigh(

Hopefully no one dumb enough to claim they are going to run the city like a business.....

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 07, 2009, 09:42:32 PM
Hopefully no one dumb enough to claim they are going to run the city like a business.....

Considering the way businesses are being run and falling apart lately, that's an understatement.

Someone with balls, someone with a focused vision, someone that's not afraid of viable/legitimate/necessary change, someone who knows how to plan and plan well, someone who has the citizens and the city's future in mind when planning, someone who definitely is not umbilically attached to the "good ole boys" network and who can think on an international and world basis. And it may not stop at these traits.  Wishful dreaming but I think we need someone of this caliber.

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