Metro Jacksonville

Mayport Cruise Ship Terminal Proposal

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/462806543_FCH5t-M.jpg)

Currently, cruise ships sailing from Jacksonville operate from a temporary cruise terminal provided by the Jacksonville Port Authority (JAXPORT). To get to this terminal, all ships must sail beneath electric power lines and the Dames Point Bridge, both which cross the St. Johns River.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/998

Seems very reasonable to me. My only reservation would be the fishing industry. Will there still be room for it in Mayport?

What a huge improvement to what is now called "historic".

Read all of the concessions that JaxPort put in the presentation and you will see that the fishing industry is WELL taken care of.  The 'Village' is also well taken care of for a museum, public space, and continued operations of the ferry for the next 10 years.  With the way that Orsini spoke with his negative attitude, I thought that the ferry was going away in 2010.

From everything I have read the JaxPort cruise terminal is well designed and has incorporated the concerns of Mayport.  This would be a great asset for Jacksonville and draw a lot of people to Mayport.  I guess the alternative is to let Mayport die a slow death.     

Wake up May Port. This will be great for your area. Last time I was there, the roads and everything looked decrepit. Sounds like a few people are trying to block something that will benefit a great many more.

Looks like a great plan overall, and the concessions are amazing considering the city probaby doesn't even need the neighborhood's approval for this rezoning to be legal.

The only thing that raised my eyebrow was the tiny surface parking lot across the street for no particular reason. I hardly think 20 parking spots are crucial for the project, compared to a commercial use that could actually recreate this "historic" character that everyone keeps claiming they want to respect.

That tiny lot also caught my attention.  Everything directly across the street should be envisioned to become complementing commercial/mixed-use development.

I also wonder what the plan is to accommodate the existing shrimp boat docks.  Other than that, the plan isn't a bad one.  From a site layout standpoint, this thing could have been much worse.  It does appear that the port authority has really tried to work with the Mayport community.

Putting the terminal in Mayport bodes well for promotion of "The Buccaneer Trail", our historic pirate coast highway A-1-A.

Thalassoharpaxomania = robber, sea, obsession, ("Pirate Mania.") Just one more thing the city failed to jump on in the midst of all of the recent movies. Shouldn't we have hosted the openings? Shouldn't we have staged the invasion? Shouldn't we take this for our own?

The pirates are still around. Don't believe it? Try parking your car on Mayport Road overnight, hee hee. But hey, the village wants to keep it's historic "charm". My concern is cynical because if they really cared about Mayport, someone would have got out a paint brush, trash can, bucket, and a mop, a long, long time ago.

The new terminal opens up a splended opportunity for BEACH-RAIL, streetcar. With venues on the South at Ponte Vedra-Sawgrass, attractions all along the Coast, Jax Beach-Atlantic Beach, and a cruise port on the north, this might be the most viable route in the county. Thought should be given by our port authority on future private right-of-way over the marsh, along the road to string the beach pearls together.

OCKLAWAHA

Mayport is full of a bunch of people who had been begging for someone to come in and redevelop the village.  They thought they were going to get condo's and restaurants which would raise their property values so they could cash in.  Be careful what you wish for!

Better idea: Close Mayport NS, put the cruise terminal there, reconnect Mayport Village with the rest of the beaches and watch some great developments pop up in a huge piece of river/beachfront property that's currently not on the tax rolls.

Why would you close a perfectly good Naval Station?  For taxes?  Nonsense... they cannot sell the condos overlooking the river downtown.

QuoteWhy would you close a perfectly good Naval Station?

(http://rosiecrosse.tripod.com/aquarius.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 30, 2009, 11:19:44 AM
The new terminal opens up a splended opportunity for BEACH-RAIL, streetcar. With venues on the South at Ponte Vedra-Sawgrass, attractions all along the Coast, Jax Beach-Atlantic Beach, and a cruise port on the north, this might be the most viable route in the county. Thought should be given by our port authority on future private right-of-way over the marsh, along the road to string the beach pearls together.

I can see it now....thousands of cruise passengers getting on transit with all their luggage...please, they barely use the streetcar in Tampa that stops right in front of the terminal!

Quote from: DevilsAdvocate on January 30, 2009, 12:13:33 PM
Better idea: Close Mayport NS, put the cruise terminal there, reconnect Mayport Village with the rest of the beaches and watch some great developments pop up in a huge piece of river/beachfront property that's currently not on the tax rolls.

No way.

You can't replicate the economic impact of the navy base, period. The extra taxes on private property (which would take 20 years to build out) simply cannot compare to the money that the navy injects into our economy. Especially with a new nuclear carrier supposedly due.

Even if Jax wanted to close a base, NAS would be a better choice than Mayport at this point (not that I'd want either to go).

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 30, 2009, 01:27:30 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 30, 2009, 11:19:44 AM
The new terminal opens up a splended opportunity for BEACH-RAIL, streetcar. With venues on the South at Ponte Vedra-Sawgrass, attractions all along the Coast, Jax Beach-Atlantic Beach, and a cruise port on the north, this might be the most viable route in the county. Thought should be given by our port authority on future private right-of-way over the marsh, along the road to string the beach pearls together.

I can see it now....thousands of cruise passengers getting on transit with all their luggage...please, they barely use the streetcar in Tampa that stops right in front of the terminal!

Yes, I CAN see it. The problem with Tampa's Line is that it doesn't reach the people. How many hotels are there on the Tampa Line and how many are along our beaches? I think we win that one with ease. After that, it's just a matter of packaging the cruise with hotel accomodations at our beaches. Something that could be done by the CofC and visitors bureau's.

Once Tampa breaks down and gets that streetcar up to the Airport, it's going to light that city up like PORTLAND experienced. I'll wager the investment tops a BILLION DOLLARS within a year of opening. Much of the new investment in Tampa will be hotel room stock and restaurants.

While our beaches are not in the same league as cities as Tampa, they certainly have as much (I'd say a lot more) visitors appeal.

The only thing our combined Sawgrass to Mayport strip lacks is a "hook" on the fishing line. Streetcars to our beaches were proposed in the 1920's by commissioner, St. Elmo Acosta. After the car line's in downtown were eaten by General Motors, he then proposed a Trolley Bus on a BRT like express busway. Both times he was ignored. 3 times a charm?

QuoteI am in favor of the city furnishing trackless trolleys to the Beaches. The Brill Company of Philadelphia, PA. have a trackless trolley car costing $6,000 which can carry 30 passengers. It operates on rubber tires like busses, but from two overhead electric wires, allowing the car to turn around autos. The same as an auto would. It would use the beach roadway. We could purchase 10 of them for $60,000. The cost of the equipment, poles, wires, sub-stations, etc, would be $6,000 per mile.

This would build up the beaches, also all along the line stops could be made every half mile at rates so much per mile.

Too bad those who started Jacksonville did not appreciate the beaches as we do now and started Jacksonville at St. Johns Bluff like all other cities on the East and West Coast of Florida have been started, what is within a mile or two of the
ocean. Jacksonville will build with the proper transportation and cheap transportation towards the beaches and in the future and from the beaches back towards Jacksonville.

Jacksonville should at first session of legislature arrange to take over the 100' strip (beach railroad grade) from new limits in southside on beach road to beaches then from Mayport to St. Johns County line as part of Jacksonville. We should do this so that we could give the necessary improvements to the ocean part of Jacksonville, such as paving, beautification and planting trees, right kind of building regulations, do away with mosquito conditions in the marshes in back of the beach, cutting a canal from Florida East Coast Canal to within 5 blocks of the beaches so that excursion steamers could go down the St. Johns River and deliver our people there, thus giving them a plesant boat ride at a small expense also. We could then give the beaches lower electricity and power.

St. Elmo Acosta, from the Jacksonville American, Aug 1, 1931.

OCKLAWAHA

wrong again....there are four Tampa hotels directly on the line....with almost 1500 rooms...and if you count hotels within 3 blocks of the streetcar line, the number jumps to 8 hotels with close to 2500 rooms....can we match that?

Also....the streetcar will never be extended to the airport in Tampa....streetcars serve a local area....say up to 5 miles long

Tampa's airport will either be served by the second phase of their light rail plan (of course Phase 1 has to get approved first)....or commuter rail through TBARTA, or maybe someday high speed rail.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 30, 2009, 02:16:21 PM
wrong again....there are four Tampa hotels directly on the line....with almost 1500 rooms...and if you count hotels within 3 blocks of the streetcar line, the number jumps to 8 hotels with close to 2500 rooms....can we match that?

Also....the streetcar will never be extended to the airport in Tampa....streetcars serve a local area....say up to 5 miles long

Tampa's airport will either be served by the second phase of their light rail plan (of course Phase 1 has to get approved first)....or commuter rail through TBARTA, or maybe someday high speed rail.

Looks like you slipped on your own venom this time. How many of those hotels were in place BEFORE the TECO streetcar line in Tampa? How many more are planned as a result of the new TECO extension? How much is coming to Tampa because of TECO?

ANOTHER $800 Million to $1 Billion dollars!

Please tell me about streetcars and how they can only serve local area's, I'd really like to hear your information. What would prevent a TECO streetcar from going to the Airport?  

OCKLAWAHA

I didn't slip at all Ock....you said we had more hotels/rooms on the beach than Tampa, and I proved you wrong....but just so you know, only 2 of the Tampa hotels have been built since the streetcar line opened....and they account for less than 500 rooms.

I totally AGREE that streetcars often spur development around it....but its still not a viable transport mode for diatnaces that are longer than about 5 miles....combined with the luggage issues, it seems to me that a streetcar line from hotels in Ponte vedra and Jax Beach to Mayport to primarily serve cruise passengers would not work.

It makes much more sense to work with the hotels to provide shuttle service (as is done in Tampa)....especially if ships will only be in port 1-2 days a week!

(http://www.orangecounty.net/cities/images/HuntBeach.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 30, 2009, 05:55:45 PM
I didn't slip at all Ock....you said we had more hotels/rooms on the beach than Tampa, and I proved you wrong....but just so you know, only 2 of the Tampa hotels have been built since the streetcar line opened....and they account for less than 500 rooms.

I totally AGREE that streetcars often spur development around it....but its still not a viable transport mode for diatnaces that are longer than about 5 miles....combined with the luggage issues, it seems to me that a streetcar line from hotels in Ponte vedra and Jax Beach to Mayport to primarily serve cruise passengers would not work.

It makes much more sense to work with the hotels to provide shuttle service (as is done in Tampa)....especially if ships will only be in port 1-2 days a week!

My mistake. I counted over 1,000 rooms at Jacksonville Beach but could find nothing with a complete room count. We seem to have more hotels overall but fewer rooms. This begs a completely new question... WHY? What screw up have our Beaches done to knock them so far out of the hotel competition as a Florida resort area. Veru interestomg that we are about 1/3 short of the hotel rooms along TECO and that TECO has so far accounted for about 1/3 of the hotel rooms along that strip in Tampa.

Streetcars are larger, faster and quieter then most buses, and I have ridden on several systems where there are luggage and bike racks in one end of the cars. Certainly something like this could be done if we had a beachfront car line.

I still think the novelty of riding the cars to the ship along with the many cruise packages which will come BEACH SIDE with a Port location change, would be great.  With little effort our beaches would finally start looking more like some of the resorts to the North or South. It is going to happen even withourt a streetcar line, but as far as density, corridor, purpose, venues etc... I can think of dozens of reasons we should secure right-of-way for future transit to the Mayport Terminal.

As far as being a short haul vehicle, this doesn't have to be the case. With the systems that survived the streetcar wipeout of the 1930's-80's, often offer many more miles and routes. Also keep in mind that a streetcar is simply a slightly smaller version of LRT. Those lines are getting more blured by the day, and perahps it's time to take the whole industry up a notch with these LONG NARROW cities spread along our coast. Just as I would say Jacksonville Beaches are a natural for streetcar, I'd also give the same consideration to Daytona Beaches, Cocoa, etc... Though I would HOPE that we are finally first in something besides another failure.

Good discussion, I like this.  

OCKLAWAHA

The main reason Tampa has more rooms is the convention center....the Marriott Waterside has 750+ rooms and the new Embassy Suites has about 350....both across the street from the center and the TECO streetcar line.

(http://www.visitmonmouth.com/oralhistory/pictures/Kofoed/trolley.jpg)

Yeah guess my Florida is changing pretty fast, Tampa is a long, long, way from Bogota!

FYI, the 501 Queen Streetcar line of Toronto is a bit over 15 miles long, imagine this stretched along one of Florida's long-narrow beach city clusters. Paradise lost?

OCKLAWAHA

aww man. I was just gettin my popcorn ready for the big fight!!

Looks like you guys worked things out. Hugs all around. I love the streetcar idea, too. Just doesn't seem feasible in the near future. Certainly not until there is more to serve than just the cruise ship passenger demographic. But way to always think big, Ock, and keep reminding us of what the ultimate aspirations should be, and what we've had in the past. 

Why did Celebrity pull out?

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1098/1467726883_804c38d579.jpg)

Thank's for the good words here, I think we are all on the same page as far as pushing our city as far as it can go.

Beaches streetcar could even go with the new technology called ULTRA-LIGHT RAIL, a rail system to be sure but much lower in overall costs. BTW, O&M on electrics is cheaper then for diesel, bus or rail.

(http://www.citytransport.info/NotMine/ppm017a.jpg)
NEW ULRT vehicle roll out.

If ULRT or Streetcar were installed, I think you'd get the following:

Families out for a day trip to the Mayport Seafood places
Coast Guardsmen
Rail Buffs
History Buffs
Fishermen
Port Employees
Cruise Passengers
Navy personel
Family Excursions
Shoppers
Trolley-Ferry Packages... (and what if the ULRT crossed the ferry? It's easy with rail...Hugenot Park anyone?)

Remember that as these Terminals are developed, Mayport is going to become more and more of an attraction  for everyone.

As for the longer stretch it goes something like.

Mayport - attractor
Mayport NS - producer
Atlantic Beach - residential
Downtown Atlantic Beach/Neptune Beach - attractor
North hotel Strip - residential
North businesses - attractors
Jacksonville Beach - residential
Jacksonville Beach - attractor
Sea Walk - attractor
Historical Museum - attractor
South beach Strip - residential
JTB area Shoping - attractor
Ponte Vedra - residential
Ponte Vedra - attractor
Sawgrass - attractor + residential

Anyone remember the JTA PCT Trolley experiment this past summer? It blew away the projections and stayed so busy that the beaches are considering going year-round? But it's been proven that the PCT Trolleys do not attract choice riders (riders that would otherwise drive), but rail does. Do the math JAX BEACHES.  

OCKLAWAHA

I think the lot across the street is for vehicles that won't fit in the garage - RVs and the like.

QuoteCouncil ready to vote on Mayport cruise terminal
But the Port Authority hasn't finished research or made final decision.

The Jacksonville City Council is expected to pave the way Tuesday for a cruise ship terminal to be built in Mayport.


Opponents of the plan say they were taken by surprise by the council's decision to move forward on a vote. They were hoping that wouldn't happen until the Jacksonville Port Authority finished researching the project's financial feasibility and made a final decision.


Council President Ronnie Fussell decided in early January to postpone voting on the three bills associated with the cruise terminal proposal to give the Port Authority time to weigh in. He told the council's Land Use and Zoning Committee not to vote on the zoning bill.


The JPA board met Jan. 26 and decided to look for a firm to design and build the terminal. However, the board members reserved the right to scrap the project if it cost too much or if they changed their minds.


Fussell said the JPA and Councilman Ray Holt, whose district includes Mayport, indicated they no longer saw need for the council to delay a decision. He and Art Graham, chairman of the Land Use and Zoning Committee, decided the committee would vote.

full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-02-09/story/council_ready_to_vote_on_mayport_cruise_terminal

My guess is that it will pass.

Lets get this done. The river and all the opportunities that it has to offer( The Navy, the Port, and yes Cruise ships) will be a major economic engine for this region for years to come.

Is there an advertised Request For Proposals at this point?

no...but it is expected shortly...if they stay on the schedule discussed at their last board meeting

i personally used to live out at mayport and i think it will be great for the mayport area and the surrounding areas.  the fun that could be had and the work that could be done its gona be great.

Quote from: billy on February 23, 2009, 04:26:20 PM
Is there an advertised Request For Proposals at this point?

Not that I've heard of, though one company did propose a building that is tilted to look like an old washing machine, a giant spare tire lays against one side where the shopping and restaurants would be, and the parking garage looks like a 1957 model Edsel on Concrete Blocks... You know, to keep with the theme of the historic surroundings.

Good God Jacksonville lets GET-R-DONE!

OCKLAWAHA

JaxPort has withdrawn its efforts to rezone the property and the RFP (or will not issue one) for a Mayport Cruise Terminal for the time being. 

I think "for the time being" is important to note. It will be back.

Quote from: fsujax on April 03, 2009, 08:58:36 AM
I think "for the time being" is important to note. It will be back.

No doubt, there isn't a whole host of alternatives thanks to that lower then the maritime industry wanted JTA bridge (I just couldn't resist that!).  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: fsujax on April 03, 2009, 08:58:36 AM
I think "for the time being" is important to note. It will be back.

Exactly. The way stuff works around here, they're hatching some plot behind the scenes to overrule what the people who actually live and work in that area want.

This will be exactly like the Craig airport extension. Nobody wants it except for some stupid bureaucrat, but still the issue keeps coming up again and again again. Actually Craig is even worse than Mayport with the way they handled it.

They got into litigation over it 10 years ago, and negotiated a settlement where in exchange for the last runway extension the residents approved, they promised to never seek another one. Well 10 years later, they break their own agreement and go right ahead and try and get another extension anyway. It's ridiculous.

(http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h64000/h64088k.jpg)
"AHOY MAYPORT! HEAVE TOO AND STAND BY FOR A RAM!"

I just don't see the Mayport thing as some great conspiracy. The village is unkept, in fact it's a total wreck save for a few homeowners who maintain their property. The waterfront is a sea of decay, old rotting docks and piles, and stinking heaps of shell fish guts. Most of the business buildings were empty.

The few historic homes are NOT endangered by the Port, and the only unknown is the little history village which I'm sure could be moved across the street or included in the port as a cool diversion, retail and food mall with a nice museum inside.

JaxPort has been very open with this whole process. The COJ and PORT have asked the Mayport community to help design the terminal, they've offered to include Mayport citizens in the job creation, addressed the environmental concerns, Power concerns, road concerns, parking concerns. They asked the Mayport businesses to come into the new terminal, they offered a boat basin and new docks, they have done everything but move the BOA building to Mayport. Still Mayport has given the City the collective middle finger apparently forgetting they could have opted out of Jacksonville in Consolidation by incorporating their village. Sorry to say, they are now part of the whole of Jacksonville, and the old "Greater Good" argument is VERY applicable to this situation.

Mayport will find that they'd attract a lot more flies with honey then vinegar. Bottom line is the city could use one of two approaches here: The old "Jessie James Method" where they just condemn the farm then blow it up without removing the occupants first, or, The "Kid Glove Method" which is exactly what they've done. Being that they have been stonewalled at every turn, the port and COJ might now be gathering their forces for a full frontal assault on the ramparts (and who could blame them?).... or as they say in the Navy - "STAND BY FOR A RAM!"  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 03, 2009, 11:32:30 AM
Exactly. The way stuff works around here, they're hatching some plot behind the scenes to overrule what the people who actually live and work in that area want.

sometimes what the people who live/work there want is not what is best for the entire community....its called NIMBY-ism (not in my back yard)....or BANANA (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything)....which is why government has limited powers to condemn property through eminent domain.

QuoteThis will be exactly like the Craig airport extension. Nobody wants it except for some stupid bureaucrat

I think that the majority DO want this, however, there is a vocal minority who do not.  Of course, the folks who do don't actually live in Mayport, but.....................

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 03, 2009, 08:49:40 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 03, 2009, 11:32:30 AM
Exactly. The way stuff works around here, they're hatching some plot behind the scenes to overrule what the people who actually live and work in that area want.

sometimes what the people who live/work there want is not what is best for the entire community....its called NIMBY-ism (not in my back yard)....or BANANA (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything)....which is why government has limited powers to condemn property through eminent domain.

That cuts both ways...

I sure don't see anybody with any of those giant $10 million dollar houses over off Fort Caroline Rd. and Mt. Pleasant offering to park giant cruise ships in their own back yard to obliterate their views, not to mention the thousands of people and horrendous traffic they bring along with them.

No, with few exceptions (more like "none" that I know of) all the people pushing this thing don't live in or have much to do with Mayport. This isn't a simple case of "NIMBY", it's a situation where you've got all these people who have nothing to do with a community saying "Oh yeah...It's goin' in YOUR back yard".

That's not fair.

What isn't fair is giving a historic designation to a place that looks like utter garbage everyday. Most of what is directly across the river from the site is boat marinas and the ferry terminal, the homes are slightly further upriver.

Another thing is that these ships are only in homeport for 2 to 3 days max, from what I've seen, before they go back out. I honestly think it'd be neat to get to see a cruise ship from my deck across the river if I lived there.

This is turning more into a catfight of people wanting to preserve something that is far from historic IMO and those of many others. The only historic thing there is something you can't even get to because it is on NS Mayport property, the lighthouse.

This cruise port is going to play a large part in the continuing growth of Jacksonville as a destination and port city. Miami and Port Everglades(Fort Lauderdale) are out of room and Port Canaveral is coming close and is also starting to charge higher rates. Jax is cheaper and easier to get to for more people who want to take a cruise, that is plain and simple. We have a large SE market to draw from, basically cockblocking some cruise traffic for ports further south, namely Canaveral.

Quote from: reednavy on April 05, 2009, 07:15:22 PM
What isn't fair is giving a historic designation to a place that looks like utter garbage everyday. Most of what is directly across the river from the site is boat marinas and the ferry terminal, the homes are slightly further upriver.

Another thing is that these ships are only in homeport for 2 to 3 days max, from what I've seen, before they go back out. I honestly think it'd be neat to get to see a cruise ship from my deck across the river if I lived there.

This is turning more into a catfight of people wanting to preserve something that is far from historic IMO and those of many others. The only historic thing there is something you can't even get to because it is on NS Mayport property, the lighthouse.

This cruise port is going to play a large part in the continuing growth of Jacksonville as a destination and port city. Miami and Port Everglades(Fort Lauderdale) are out of room and Port Canaveral is coming close and is also starting to charge higher rates. Jax is cheaper and easier to get to for more people who want to take a cruise, that is plain and simple. We have a large SE market to draw from, basically cockblocking some cruise traffic for ports further south, namely Canaveral.

Do you live in Mayport?

Because if not, then your comments and opinions on this subject have just proven my point about how this whole thing is being handled over the objections of the folks who actually live and work there...

You have no more right to say their community looks like garbage and nobody would care if you dumped 3000 people a week through their formerly sleepy town, than they have any right to tell you what kind of grass you can grow in your community.

again, the purpose of eminent domain is to allow government to acquire land at a fair price in order to provide fo something (roads, schools, utilities, etc.) that benefit the community as a whole....in Florida, as elsewhere in the nation, eminent domain can be used for economic development...the Supreme Court affirmed this in the Kelo case a few years ago

In the case of JaxPort, they already own the land (as part of a swap with the City)...and are just seeking the land use approvals to allow the cruise terminal on land that is already zoned for similar uses.

Well said Ock. Mayport is not a seperate community, is part of the C.O.J. and as a citizen, Mayport's future is of insterest to me because this will affect the image of the city quite a bit.

I'm sorry, but they can say all they want, it looks like garbage. Last time I checked trash on the streets and boarded up stores is hardly chic, cosmopolitan, tasteful, or pleasing to the eye.

Mayport had plenty of opportunites to clean their crap up, and it is either sink or swim for them, and has been for years. Apparently, they have been sinking for a while, long before I moved here.

Mayport is Jacksonville, and what these passengers see in Mayport will greatly determine their opinion of the nation's 12th largest city. That opinion can dictate whether they want to explore the city, or jsut chill at The Beaches, rub shoulders with the wealthy in PVB, or drive down to the tourist trap that is St. Augustine.

This terminal is probably the city's largest non-sporting event chance to show what it can do and looks like. I do not want people from Atlanta, Birmingham, or Nashville giving bad opinions about the city I now call home, based on a stupidly designated, historic my azz, fishing "village".

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 05, 2009, 09:20:31 PM
again, the purpose of eminent domain is to allow government to acquire land at a fair price in order to provide fo something (roads, schools, utilities, etc.) that benefit the community as a whole....in Florida, as elsewhere in the nation, eminent domain can be used for economic development...the Supreme Court affirmed this in the Kelo case a few years ago

Within 3 months of the Kelo decision, Florida passed Bill 1567, which completely gutted the right of local governments to seize property for economic reasons.

The way things stand now, it has to be a bridge or a highway, or something like that. They can no longer cite "economic development" or "blight" as a valid reason for seizing property.

http://www.northcountrygazette.org/articles/051306FloridaReform.html

Since that time, 40+ out of the 50 states have passed similar legislation. Kelo is no longer relevant.

not quite....Florida already had strong rules on the books regarding eminent domain for economic development....it deals with CRAs and "blighted" areas....the bill you refer to pretty much clarified what was already in statute and rule.

That said, I agree that Kelo doesn't matter in this case....because JaxPort already has the land!

Since jaxport already owns the land perhaps the question Mayport should answer is...

Do you want a nice cruise ship with tourists and shops and restaraunts or tankers and container ships?

You guys talk it out amongst yourselves and get back to us... :)

I believe this is a great thing for the Mayport area.  The building and surrounding areas can be kept up in the same theme as Mayport.  I go to Mayport about once a month to Safe Harbor.  I'm sorry but having a handful of cruise ships will not be any worse than having gambling boats.  The traffic, one or two days a week will be rough (remember, those people park for days at a time) and parking will not be bad.  That is what a parking garage is for.  With the Wonderwood Expressway, most people will miss Mayport road.  It's a shame that a GREAT opportunity will be lost. 

QuoteFascination embarks record number of passengers from Jacksonville
Jacksonville Business Journal

The Jacksonville Port Authority’s cruise terminal set a record last week when 2,623 passengers embarked on Carnival Cruise Lines’ Fascination cruise to Half Moon Cay and Nassau, Bahamas.

The previous record for a single cruise was 2,539 passengers, set earlier this year. The record-breaking cruise comes after the authority pulled back on its plans to build a $60 million terminal in Mayport Village to focus on its cargo business and see how the cruise industry weathers the recession.

....tsk-tsk.

I wonder how many meals, do dads, and whatnots those folks may have bought if they were catching the boat in historic Mayport??

Quote from: tufsu1 on April 06, 2009, 09:51:19 AM
not quite....Florida already had strong rules on the books regarding eminent domain for economic development....it deals with CRAs and "blighted" areas....the bill you refer to pretty much clarified what was already in statute and rule.

That said, I agree that Kelo doesn't matter in this case....because JaxPort already has the land!

That's not really true. The whole premise of the Kelo-type cases was usually that the county or state wants to seize the land claiming an "economic" interest its redevelopment, rather than claiming a physical interest in needing to put a road in, etc. Another popular alternative was designating an area as "blighted" (even if it wasn't), just in order to set the stage for exercising ED.

Following 1567, this type of behavior (which is to say, the same fact pattern in Kelo) is now expressly prohibited in this state. My prior assessment is entirely accurate. 1567 largely gutted eminent domain powers in this state, by removing the most widely used options for exercising it. It didn't just clarify what was already there, it actually took away a significant chunk of eminent domain power.

Ok, Jaxport already has the land, so the eminent domain issue goes right out the window, so to speak.

Build the damn thing, to me, Mayport was a village, now mostly wasted river frontage.

Harsh yes, but fairly true.

Well yeah, you're right about that. They've demolished a lot of it, just since I've been in town. There used to be commercial buildings and stores, now they're all gone. There also used to be a lot of active docks, with lots of commercial vessels, shrimp boats and such. They're all gone now, just rotting pilings. The only active docks left are the ones behind Singleton's. There were 2 or 3 Casino boats when I got here, much larger than the one that is there now (although the really big one was a real POS. It was a converted freighter and would break down and get stuck about every time it went out. Fun times). A couple tackle and bait shops, they're gone too.

I'm guessing the people who live there have to drive a ways to get anything they need. That part is sad.

But my only point with all this is, if everybody who actually lives there says they don't want it, then there are more than enough spots on the river where you could put it, without cramming it down peoples' throats. That's all. It just bothers me to see people who've lived in a place forever have their community so drastically changed over their own wishes. Just doesn't seem right.

Chris - Ask the people of Yukon if they appreciated the Navy taking off and landing in front of their post office. Sign of the times also brings in revenue to the local area. Yukon is still there, smaller than before, but they weathered the storm. The shacks of Mayport will weather this storm as well, but all of Jax can prosper, just as we have with the Navy.

"there is not a chance we would loose the cruise industry." - Despite excellent numbers, this seems naive.  This can't keep getting pushed back.............

QuoteBusiness strong, but cruise terminal for Jacksonville on hold
Jacksonville Business Journal - by Mark Szakonyi

The Jacksonville Port Authority doesn’t expect to restart its push to build a new cruise terminal for at least another year.

Since the authority pulled back on its pursuit in March, the infrastructure bond market has improved and ships are being filled with passengers despite cruise opponents’ warning that the recession would cripple the industry. But authority board chairman William Mason said his priority is getting Hanjin Shipping Co. Ltd’s $208 million terminal online, which is expected to be open at the site of the current cruise terminal in 2012.

“I don’t think there is any chance we are going to lose the cruise industry,” said Mason.

The authority last week signed a two-year contract with Carnival Cruise Lines to keep service of its 2,052-passenger Fascination. Since October, the cruise ship has been running at nearly 113 percent capacity, said Tony Orsini, the authority’s senior director of cruise operations.

He said Carnival has reduced rates for the Jacksonville-based cruise but not by as much as it has cut cruise packages in other locations. The cruise industry as a whole has fared well in the recession, but Jacksonville’s cruise industry has the added plus of being a heavy drive-to market, meaning passengers don’t have to buy plane tickets. A third of the country is able to drive to Jacksonville in 24 hours or less.

Despite being a drive-to market, Jacksonville International Airport has experienced an increase in cruise-bound passengers, said Michael Stewart, Jacksonville Aviation Authority spokesman.

He said about 15 percent of the cruise-goers come through the airport and the majority come in on Saturday, which is a slow day for the business-passenger heavy airport. Jacksonville Port Authority Executive Director Rick Ferrin said the latest construction of a new cruise terminal could start is April 2012.

The cruise lines could be diverted to a temporary terminal while a new terminal is built and the existing cruise terminal could be kept open longer by making it the last structure to be demolished to make way for the Hanjin facility.

Although the authority’s call for design bids was recalled, the terminal was expected to include a 1,400-space, five-story parking garage and about 25,000 square feet of retail space. The construction would create about 1,500 jobs and have an annual $500 million impact on the area, said Louis Woods, a University of North Florida economics and geography professor, based on an economic analysis commissioned by the authority.

With 40 percent of passengers staying in Jacksonville before or after the cruise, hotels logged about 18,000 room-nights annually, Dan King, general manager of the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront, said previously. Hotels reported a 6 percent to 7 percent occupancy drop when cruise service stopped between April and mid-September.

Each cruise passenger spends about $300 in the area, said Visit Jacksonville spokeswoman Lyndsay Rossman, and the Fascination has a $25 million impact on the area per call.

I kind of agree.  Lock down Hanjin and then push for the new terminal.  The city has a proposal already.  They just need to work with the locals to make it happen.  IMO, Hanjin will benefit this economy FAR more than the cruise industry.  Although, keeping both is even better!  :)

(http://cruisediva.net/MiracleAerial2_a.JPG)


This was all over the news yesterday - look familiar?
Oasis of the Seas Under the Bridge of Storebaelt Denmark
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3667427/oasis_of_the_seas_under_the_bridge_of_storebaelt_denmark/

Man..... that ship is flipping HUGE!!!

QuoteThe largest cruise ship in the world Oasis of the Seas cruised under the Storebealt bridge Denmark 15 minutes past midnight 31 of November 2009. The ship is 72 meters high and the bridge is 65 meter. But with very high speed and funnels lowed down they had a margin of 1 meter and 25 cm up to the bridge. The ship had the highest speed it can have so it plowed itself down in the sea so it could go under. it will not stop in Europe but go directly to Florida.

Just think of what that puppy will look like parked at Port Everglades.

Seems like the same scenario at the Dames Point (but on a smaller scale).

Its amazing that they approached the bridge at full speed in order to keep the ship lower in the water.  Man... the slightest miscalculation of less than a meter and WACK!!!!

That was probably the most tense moment in many of their lives.  That would have been an Expensive miscalculation.  Gotta love those engineers.

What's also incredible is that the bottom was more than sixty-five feet under the ship's bottom and the flipping thing is so HUGE that there was still bottom suction action.  Just boggles the mind!

^ That's what she said!?  :)

Carnival unveils Fascination Revamp

QuoteCarnival Cruise Lines unveiled its multimillion-dollar renovation of its more than 2,000-passenger cruise ship Fascination, which now features 98 balcony staterooms and a water park.

The ship revamp follows a record year in business for the cruise line. Nearly 185,500 passengers sailed on the Fascination out of Jacksonville in fiscal 2009, which ended Sept. 30. The number of passengers has grown by 25 percent since Carnival began sailing out of Jacksonville in 2005.

The Jacksonville Port Authority will need to build a new cruise terminal in the coming years if it wants to keep the growing industry. A new terminal is needed because the site of the present terminal at Dames Point will be the home of the Hanjin Shipping Company Ltd.’s new container terminal in 2013.

The chairman of the authority board, David Kulik, said the authority will continue to look at new cruise terminal sites, and it will not have to make a decision until the engineering contract for the Hanjin terminal is awarded.

The authority is waiting for a letter of agreement between the South Korean shipping company and the longshoremen’s union before it chooses the terminal design firm, Kulik said.

The authority’s board voted unanimously in March 2009 to pull back on its plans to build the $60 million cruise terminal to focus on its cargo business and see how the cruise industry handles the recession.

Some Mayport residents said if the cruise terminal was built at Mayport, it would hurt the area’s character and shrimping industry. Supporters of the cruise terminal countered that it would do the opposite by bringing more money and jobs into the area.

The Carnival Fascination’s sailing schedule consists of a four-day cruise to Freeport and Nassau, the Bahamas; and a five-day trip to the private Bahamian island of Half Moon Cay and Nassau.

The revamped Fascination includes an adult-only retreat area and a resort-style main pool area.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/02/01/daily4.html

Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 06, 2009, 10:06:11 AM
Since jaxport already owns the land perhaps the question Mayport should answer is...

Do you want a nice cruise ship with tourists and shops and restaraunts or tankers and container ships?

You guys talk it out amongst yourselves and get back to us... :)

The Port Authority is offering the Mayport Community what amounts to a sketch pad, and a blank check. If the Mayport NIMBY'S still don't get it, they don't deserve an alternate Tanker, or Container Terminal! Give them a huge bulk cargo facility and off-load the low grade coal and carbon black, at Mayport so it doesn't soil Talleyrand's nice neighborhoods.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Jason on November 03, 2009, 01:21:22 PM
Man..... that ship is flipping HUGE!!!

QuoteThe largest cruise ship in the world Oasis of the Seas cruised under the Storebealt bridge Denmark 15 minutes past midnight 31 of November 2009. The ship is 72 meters high and the bridge is 65 meter. But with very high speed and funnels lowed down they had a margin of 1 meter and 25 cm up to the bridge. The ship had the highest speed it can have so it plowed itself down in the sea so it could go under. it will not stop in Europe but go directly to Florida.

Just think of what that puppy will look like parked at Port Everglades.

Couldn't resist this Jason... Ships are never parked, they are moored (dockside) or anchored (swinging free in a basin as an example).   :o LOL!  ;D

BTW, are you still doing models? Lakelander and I have a fairly simple (?) project for you.

OCKLAWAHA

I finally figured out how to deal with the Mayport episode..........

If I were living in Mayport and not happy with the Terminal proposal I would simply move away.
Florida has a long history of such forced elective displacements.

I am for historic preservation and maintenance of community character, but I also support viability and sound economical decisions.  A cruise terminal that can handle large ships in Mayport makes sense.  In addition, it allows Jacksonville to achieve to successes: 1. A healthy cruise port capable of future growth; and 2. Hanjin cargo port.

WHY MAYPORT?

http://www.youtube.com/v/0eISSBGXJ18&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=

OCKLAWAHA

I don't get the appeal of cruise ships.

Gwen: "You dont like crowds?"
Bertram Pincus: "Its no so much the crowd, as the individuals within
  the crowd."

Quote1. A healthy cruise port capable of future growth; and 2. Hanjin cargo port.

Certainly the latter, not the former. Who is the most powerful figure in NE Florida? Why its Rick Ferrin head of the Port Authority, and he knows it. He will be in charge of 50-100,000 jobs as the economy improves. We don't really need a cruise ship or cruise terminal. I'd gladly trade south florida for their containers, and they can have the cruise ship business. I want the containers, because they foster more money for our economy than tourists.

We'll never be able to put the ships in the ST. Johns that Miami can, and now with the new Nuke carrier coming, we really don't need cruise ships.

mtraininjax.........I agree! I would much rather have container cargo than cruise ships anyday! Who ever runs the cruise ship usually makes money, facility where it is docked and the maintenance of the facility......other than that, ain't squat for an area other than token payments! Rood/Vescor can kiss off as far as I am concerned!

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 02, 2010, 06:46:16 AM
mtraininjax.........I agree! I would much rather have container cargo than cruise ships anyday! Who ever runs the cruise ship usually makes money, facility where it is docked and the maintenance of the facility......other than that, ain't squat for an area other than token payments!

tell that to the Channelside people in Tampa!

Tell that to the Mayport people! From what I have seen and read...........they are getting the short end of the stick! Things like this is why I say.........no vision and no plan! Not to mention Cruise ship numbers were down overall..........bigger ships and less riders!

Mayport is part of JACKSONVILLE. They had a chance to be independent and voted for inclusion, and launched on 40 years of complaining that Jacksonville ignores them, doesn't pave roads, lay sewers, pipe water, build public spaces...etc.  The Port comes up with a great plan to address ALL of those "wants" and needs, and provide public space for the residents to operate their seafood and gift shop businesses from...

Suddenly Jacksonville is always trying to mess with Mayport, the city won't leave us alone, we don't want Jacksonville!

Sorry y'all, this is bull shit pure and simple... I could do a hell of a lot for my community with a blank check, and the opportunity to help with a design. Damn!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 02, 2010, 10:00:16 AM
Tell that to the Mayport people! From what I have seen and read...........they are getting the short end of the stick! Things like this is why I say.........no vision and no plan! Not to mention Cruise ship numbers were down overall..........bigger ships and less riders!

1. Have you been to Mayport lately...they could use a shot in the arm
2. Cruise # maybe down overall...but the ship here continues to grow...and they just renovated it

In the end, a "vision" would be for Jax. to want to stay in the cruise business....and a "plan" would be to find a place for that.....JaxPort chose Mayport.

Once again, there is a vision/plan...you just don't like it.

Ock..........I agree with you to a point! However between Jaxport and Vescor, most of the water front property is being bought out by Vesco or forced into foreclosure. Cruise Ship Terminal is also supposed to be located there and there just is not room for the local shrimpers and a cruise terminal so where do you go from there? What is historic waterfront now won't be in the future and I have to question just how much will be lost if a Cruise Terminal will go in! The Florida Shrimping Industry is slowly but surely being squeezed out!

QuoteThe Florida Shrimping Industry is slowly but surely being squeezed out!

I think this is true nationally.  Relating to Mayport though, I'm pretty sure part of the plan calls for new docks for the shrimp boats displaced.

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 02, 2010, 11:41:30 AM
Ock..........I agree with you to a point! However between Jaxport and Vescor, most of the water front property is being bought out by Vesco or forced into foreclosure. Cruise Ship Terminal is also supposed to be located there and there just is not room for the local shrimpers and a cruise terminal so where do you go from there? What is historic waterfront now won't be in the future and I have to question just how much will be lost if a Cruise Terminal will go in! The Florida Shrimping Industry is slowly but surely being squeezed out!

CS, come on man! They have offered a turning basin marina for the shrimp fleet, off the channel in effect their own private lake with an entry. They could have a private but the Mayportites started complaining that it's too shallow!  IT HASN'T EVEN BEEN ENGINEERED YET!

OCKLAWAHA

Well, most of em there do live in trailers and flimsy looking houses, I wouldn't expect them to have the most sound judgement.

"Save our little village!" Save what exactly, there isn't a whole lot there now to be saved. The shrimpers can be moved and JAXPORT is willing to provide them the accomodations needed, yet they want to act all stupid about it.

Well Gentlemen I see the direction that this is going but I am going to hold my ground.........what about the "Historic" part of Mayport? We sure seem concerned about Springfield,San Marco,Riverside and the like, I have to ask what about Mayport? Why should a fishing village be converted into a Cruise Ship Terminal or Luxury Condominiums, with a waterview or both at the same time. Ock you know as well as I do, Shrimpers need a "Turning Basin" like I need another hole in the head! The proposed terminal area had a turning basin Incorporated into the design did it not? The point being a Cruise ship needs a turning basin at that point in the river............Shrimp boats don't! If Mayport wishes to remain in the 18th Century, that's their call, but you can not drag them into our Century because John Rood/Vescor and John Meserve thinks it is a good idea! They have homes that date back several century's and shacks, no doubt about it, but if I lived there, I would be telling Jacksonville to shove it also! Our end of the world lacks lots, does it not? So who are we to be telling them just what to do and how to do it............don't give someone rocks when you live in a glass house!

So, are there studies out there that would indicate whether a cruise ship terminal will make Mayport a destination and therefore tourist rich or not?  Can the residents find that information?  Then the residents can make an informed decision on whether they want that.  They live there, so it should be their choice.  It was a quiet little backward fishing port when they moved there so there was a reasonable expectation that it would remain so.  Majority rule and if they want to lose that aspect, assuming they would, then OK.  If not, then perhaps container ships would be a better choice.

The shrimpers need to campaign that if they get moved, then the dockage is free for them for a long period of time and the docks are maintained by funds from the cruise ships. Perhaps even make a new port than is historically accurate for a turn of the century port and make it part of the destination.  They could charge more for their shrimp that way.

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 03, 2010, 06:39:09 AM
Well Gentlemen I see the direction that this is going but I am going to hold my ground.........what about the "Historic" part of Mayport? We sure seem concerned about Springfield,San Marco,Riverside and the like, I have to ask what about Mayport? Why should a fishing village be converted into a Cruise Ship Terminal or Luxury Condominiums, with a waterview or both at the same time. Ock you know as well as I do, Shrimpers need a "Turning Basin" like I need another hole in the head! The proposed terminal area had a turning basin Incorporated into the design did it not? The point being a Cruise ship needs a turning basin at that point in the river............Shrimp boats don't! If Mayport wishes to remain in the 18th Century, that's their call, but you can not drag them into our Century because John Rood/Vescor and John Meserve thinks it is a good idea! They have homes that date back several century's and shacks, no doubt about it, but if I lived there, I would be telling Jacksonville to shove it also! Our end of the world lacks lots, does it not? So who are we to be telling them just what to do and how to do it............don't give someone rocks when you live in a glass house!

CS!!!!!!

Stickin it to da man!

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 03, 2010, 06:39:09 AM
Well Gentlemen I see the direction that this is going but I am going to hold my ground.........what about the "Historic" part of Mayport? We sure seem concerned about Springfield,San Marco,Riverside and the like, I have to ask what about Mayport? Why should a fishing village be converted into a Cruise Ship Terminal or Luxury Condominiums, with a waterview or both at the same time. Ock you know as well as I do, Shrimpers need a "Turning Basin" like I need another hole in the head! The proposed terminal area had a turning basin Incorporated into the design did it not? The point being a Cruise ship needs a turning basin at that point in the river............Shrimp boats don't! If Mayport wishes to remain in the 18th Century, that's their call, but you can not drag them into our Century because John Rood/Vescor and John Meserve thinks it is a good idea! They have homes that date back several century's and shacks, no doubt about it, but if I lived there, I would be telling Jacksonville to shove it also! Our end of the world lacks lots, does it not? So who are we to be telling them just what to do and how to do it............don't give someone rocks when you live in a glass house!

My bad CS, the "turning basin" was my own bad choice of words, I used it because that is what it looks like on the plan, a micro Mayport Navy basin. If you are familiar with the little round lakes of Central Florida, it looks like that, maybe a city block in size, with dockage and support services all around. Very nice.

The cruise ships do not have a thing changed in the river, I'm not even sure they'll need to scoop out the bulkhead area's as large ships tie up there now. There will be NO real turning basin for either.

OCKLAWAHA

Somehow the Port of Fernandina and Old Fernandina manage to coexist right next to one another.

Charleston is starting the process of creating a new Cruise terminal in the wake of Carnival's decision to base more cruises from there.   


PDF of the conceptual plan

http://www.unionpierplan.com/pdf/CRP-Concept%20Plan%20-%20Public%20Meeting%20Board.pdf (http://www.unionpierplan.com/pdf/CRP-Concept%20Plan%20-%20Public%20Meeting%20Board.pdf)   

Quote

A new 'front door'
Plan includes water views, relocation of cruise terminal, removal of eyesores

By Allyson Bird
The Post and Courier
Wednesday, February 10, 2010

A new development plan for Union Pier Terminal would restore Charleston's "historical front door," according to a consultant who described the current configuration as "making a garden and then putting all this junk in front of it."

The concept unveiled Tuesday calls for demolishing most of the aging buildings on the property, opening up some 50 acres of valuable waterfront land for public use and redevelopment. Also, it would relocate BMW's local port operations and shift cruise ship passengers from the dated terminal near the end of Market Street to an existing cargo building at the pier's north end.


A new cruise terminal master plan would recapture the waterfront for public use, allowing for concerts and other events on the side of the U.S. Customhouse that faces the shore.

Jaque Robertson, whose New York-based urban design firm was hired by the State Ports Authority as a consultant to evaluate the property, called the redevelopment proposal "one of the half-dozen most important urban projects in the U.S."

More than 200 people came to an afternoon presentation by port officials and Robertson's company inside the existing passenger terminal, which would be razed under the new plan. The new master plan also would shift Charleston's cruise business into a larger building that's now used to handle other cargo, possibly within three years.

The plan also moves cruise traffic away from the Market Street bustle by directing ship passengers onto the terminal site to park. A redrawn map of the area shows a series of rundown port buildings would be removed to create space for new parks, streets and unspecified real estate ventures.

Officials stressed that everything revealed Tuesday was nothing more than conceptual, saying a master plan could take decades to execute and that the details are likely to change over time. The type of future development at Union Pier, whether resident or commercial, will be driven by market demands.

"It will go fast at times and slow at times," Robertson said. "It may be 80 percent housing. It may not."

Jim Newsome, the SPA's chief executive, said the first order of business will be to find a new home for BMW's operations at Union Pier, which now mainly handles vehicles made in the Upstate for export. Talks are already under way, and a deal could be struck by the end of March, he said.

Newsome identified the SPA's North Charleston Terminal as one possible location for the automaker. He noted that Union Pier cannot accommodate the German company's port needs over the long run.

"We will take care of BMW," Newsome said. "They're a strategic partner. They're important to the port. They're important to the state."

He said the SPA could transfer its cruise operations to the new terminal site by mid-2012 at earliest. Newsome said the project likely would involve a public-private partnership but said it was too early to share any cost estimates.

The master plan comes after a series of community forums and feedback sessions with neighborhood groups and businesses. Charleston Mayor Joe Riley said the redevelopment would, in effect, extend Waterfront Park to the north. Any decisions based on the plan would change the city forever, he added.

"I think if you do a measurement of great cities around the world ... you measure the degree of community interest and engagement, and the higher that is, the greater the city," Riley said.

The proposed changes call for the removal of about 8 acres of existing dock space at Union Pier. The plan still allows for a single-berth cruise terminal that the SPA anticipates would handle no more than two 2,000-person ship calls a week.

After sharing key points from the master plan, officials split the audience into small groups for discussion and shared some of the feedback before wrapping up the meeting. Katie Zimmerman, a project manager with the Coastal Conservation League, said that portion of the program fell short.

"They really watered down the comments," said Zimmerman, whose group is pushing for written standards regarding cruise-ship emissions and waste disposal. "There were lots of concerns about traffic. There were several concerns about the type of business and concern that cruises degrade quality of life."

In moving BMW's operations, the master plan would reduce freight-train traffic in the area. It also considers closing a portion of Concord Street to non-cruise traffic during ship calls or using Washington Street as an alternate route to the terminal.

Mark Lang, store director of the Harris Teeter grocery store across from Union Pier, said congestion affects his customers but that aesthetics affect his future.

"From our business perspective, we're very excited the whole area is going to be developed," he said. "It's kind of an eyesore now. ... We're hoping to get a bigger, better store out of this."

Erin Mellen, president of Charleston Convention and Group Services, said the plan works better for departing tours she organizes from the cruise terminal but that older passengers might need shuttle service to reach the popular City Market area from the new embarkation site.

Planners with Robertson's firm, Cooper Robertson and Partners, spent time at Historic Charleston Foundation poring through archived documents and images from the waterfront over the centuries. The foundation's director, Kitty Robinson, said she appreciated that the team "came up with a concept plan that is so thoughtful of what they heard from the community."

For example, it considers using the Bennett Rice Mill facade -- a single side of brick building preserved in time behind Union Pier's fences -- as a backdrop for waterfront performances.

Elsewhere, a new park shown within the port property could house a pavilion showcasing the city's rich maritime history.

"It's incredibly interesting," said Robertson, whose "historical front door" comment stemmed from the fact that for centuries most Charleston visitors arrived on ships that tied up at the current Union Pier site.

The SPA agreed to pay Cooper Robertson about $1.3 million for its work. Officials will deliver an update at another community meeting in late spring.

John P. McDermott contributed to this report. Reach Allyson Bird at 937-5594 or abird@postandcourier.com.

Cruise terminal aside, the Charleston plan for this waterfront site is exactly what Jacksonville should do with the Shipyards and JEA sites.  Carve out your desired public space areas, expand the urban street grid and fill in the site with mixed-use development.  Btw, I'm glad to see the new plan incorporates the old Bennett Rice Mill facade as a central focal point of the site's proposed park.

Gentlemen............something to consider would be "What to do with the dredging materials" if the Jaxport end of the St Johns is deepened? Perfect material to add area in that vicinity plus a "Cruise Terminal" could be installed in that area! This is something that has been in the back of my mind for quite some time but no one has mentioned this...........pilings driven and built upon and go from there! There really is no need to use Mayport other than Vescor is bound and determined to build in that region and after spending $10 Million Dollars it's obvious to me they want to build there............well let them build it with their money and not our tax dollars..........but thats just me! Mayport does not want a Cruise Terminal in their world and I can't blame them one bit!

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 10, 2010, 04:44:05 PM................something to consider would be "What to do with the dredging materials" if the Jaxport end of the St Johns is deepened? Perfect material to add area in that vicinity plus a "Cruise Terminal" could be installed in that area! ................

They have settlement areas along the river. Look at Google maps west of the intersection of the ICW and at the Dames Point bridge. Making the river smaller at Mayport with fill is a bad idea. It would only make the current faster and the channel narrower. 

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 10, 2010, 04:44:05 PM
...but thats just me! Mayport does not want a Cruise Terminal in their world and I can't blame them one bit!

Chief Joseph wasn't real keen on the Great Northern Railroad, Red Cloud and Three Bears must have loved the Santa Fe, while Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull protested the Union Pacific...  

Condense the terminal, stack it on top of parking, don't touch an inch of groud south of the main street, better the entry road, improve quality for retailers, restaurateurs, build a harbor for the shrimp fleet, See if the fences can be rolled back to clear the light house and save the few old historic buildings, by moving them across the road.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Overstreet on February 10, 2010, 05:03:09 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on February 10, 2010, 04:44:05 PM................something to consider would be "What to do with the dredging materials" if the Jaxport end of the St Johns is deepened? Perfect material to add area in that vicinity plus a "Cruise Terminal" could be installed in that area! ................

They have settlement areas along the river. Look at Google maps west of the intersection of the ICW and at the Dames Point bridge. Making the river smaller at Mayport with fill is a bad idea. It would only make the current faster and the channel narrower. 

According to a port authority spokesman, the jury is still out on exactly where the spoil will go, but he felt pretty certain that it would go on the island under the Broward Bridge/Dames Point. This is an island that holds some promise for future port expansion.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock............I am refereeing to the area at the Dames Point region...........not adding in the Mayport area! There is no need to transport to the Mayport area when normal discharge is by piping and the piping can be semi-directed depending on angle in relation to the dredge itself.............if I remember correctly (been awhile since I have been on a dredge and that was a hopper style not a suction system which means really old style!) There appears to be, from my viewpoint, no need to base any Cruise Ship in Mayport when the same thing could take place in Dames Point! Before or after Dames Point take your pick........which ever is engineering and accessible easier, not to mention cost effective!

Quotebut he felt pretty certain that it would go on the island under the Broward Bridge/Dames Point.

if not mistaken that "island" is compiled of previous dredging of the river.

BridgeTroll............I believe there are two Islands that were made from dredging.......one east and one west from the looks of it but have not made a water entry inspection...........just from looking from on the Blownapart on high and moving North.........one for sure, second not so sure! My point is east of the Dames Point Facility and the north side shore and built in the right location, no one would care how low the Bridge is since a Cruise Ship would not have to go under!

Are you talking about putting the Cruise Terminal on the east side of Dames Point facing Blount Island?
Looking at Google Maps, the tip of the Point is a bulk facility (sand, gravel, whatnot), north of that is the New Berlin residential area, and I think the Yellow Bluff fort site is there, too.  If it's not OK to mess with the Mayport residential area, why would it be OK to mess with New Berlin?  Then, continuing north, it looks like wetlands, some sort of container port in the middle of that channel, then the bridge connecting to the mainland. 

I'd be all for dredging Mill Cove and using that as a cruise terminal, I've said it before. It is a good location, not even 2 miles from 9A, and convenient to get to.

Using the dredge island for the cruise terminal, or the residential areas along the south edge of Mill Cove?  If the island is used, it might be possible to drop ramps off the part of the Dames Point bridge after it crosses the Cove.  The island is an interesting idea ...

Just looked at Google Maps again - both CS's east Dames Point and reednavy's Mill Cove options are west of the JEA high voltage lines.  If memory serves, the clearance under them is about the same as under the Dames Point Bridge - or not much higher - and I heard somewhere that it would cost millions to make them higher.

Either, but I'd be more for using the island.

Uh-Oh!  :o

Savannah seeks cruise business, eyes Jacksonville’s Carnival Cruise Lines ship

QuoteSavannah is making a play to land a cruise ship and its city leaders are closely watching whether Jacksonville remains a homeport for Carnival Cruise Lines.
Savannah Alderman Tony Thomas said if Carnival stops sailing the Fascination ship  from Jacksonville in the future, Savannah would want to become the Fascination’s next homeport.
“We would definitely entertain them coming to Savannah,” he said. “I would be glad to talk with them about that personally.”
Savannah plans to hire a consultant to do a feasibility study this year on what it would cost to build a cruise terminal, how many passengers would sail from Savannah, and what economic benefits would come from year-round cruises. A task force has been studying the cruise business since last year.
Carnival has an agreement with the Jacksonville Port Authority through May 2011 to lease the port-owned cruise terminal located off Heckscher Drive, west of the Dames Point bridge. The cruise terminal is slated for demolition when a new cargo terminal is built for Hanjin Shipping. JaxPort officials have said the cruise terminal could be used by Carnival through 2012.
The port authority bought land in Mayport for a new cruise terminal, but in March 2009, the board shelved study of that proposal to concentrate on Hanjin and expanding cargo business. JaxPort officials say that sometime this year, they will revisit the long-term future of cruises.
“It’s a competitive world out there and Jacksonville as a whole needs to understand this is a business worth keeping,” said JaxPort spokeswoman Nancy Rubin.
Thomas said if the Fascination leaves Jacksonville, Savannah would want to have its cruise terminal built by then.
“We’re fast-tracking it,” he said. “We’ve got a tremendous amount of momentum rolling forward.”
He said the feasibility study would cost $100,000 to $200,000. The city of Savannah earmarked $50,000 for the study. State Sen. Lester Jackson of Savannah sought Gov. Sonny Perdue’s support for funding of the study. Perdue is “intrigued by the idea” but budget woes prevent funding new programs this year, said spokesman Bert Brantley.
Jackson said money from county government and the tourism bureau will go toward the study’s cost. Thomas said the city of Savannah could request proposals from consultants next month.
Jackson said Savannah is researching how the South Carolina State Ports Authority successfully pursued year-round cruises from Charleston. Carnival plans to start sailing from Charleston in May.
“We’re looking at what other states have done right, and we think Charleston is a good model,” he said.

http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-03-19/story/savannah_seeks_cruise_business_eyes_jacksonville%E2%80%99s_carnival_cruise_lines_s

Serves us right... >:(

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 19, 2010, 09:59:37 AM
Serves us right... >:(

Agreed.  This would be a non-issue if it weren't for a few shrimp boats and shacks.  We should have pushed this through 5 years ago.

Will not be surprised if we lose this but I think we will get the deal done in the end.

Hmm - wonder what prompted this:
JaxPort to restart consideration of cruise business in Mayport

QuoteJacksonville Port Authority Board Chairman David Kulik said today JaxPort is ready to resume considering construction of a cruise terminal at Mayport.
In addition to looking at port-owned land in Mayport, he said two other sites located east of the Dames Point bridge will also get scrutiny as potential sites for a cruise terminal.
Kulik said those two sites have not been studied previously by the authority's staff. He declined to identify the locations.
A year ago, the authority's board shelved discussions of building a cruise terminal in Mayport and directed the agency's staff to concentrate on the cargo side of the port's business.
"Last year at this time, we were in a deep hole from a global economic standpoint, and now we're coming out of it," Kulik said.
Kulik said he will ask the board at Monday's meeting to direct the staff to restart review of the cruise terminal.
The existing terminal, which serves Carnival Cruise Lines, would be torn down to make way for construction of the planned Hanjin Shipping cargo terminal. Kulik said that demolition would probably occur in the second quarter of 2013.
Though the review will consider two other sites, Kulik said Mayport remains a strong candidate for the cruise terminal.
"Mayport is still an extremely viable location," he said.

http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-03-26/story/jaxport-restart-consideration-cruise-business-mayport

I'd be interesting in hearing what the other sites are. There are so few options east of 295.

- Bartram Island (which would be awesome, but probably wouldn't be considered because the army corps of engineers is still using it for dredging.)
- There appears to be an empty site at Hecksher & McKenna Drive, but the map lists it as preservation land
- There's an active industrial/mining site at the dead-end of Ft. Caroline Rd.

Either way, it seems like any of these sites would pose much more difficult political battles than simply forcing through the Mayport plan.

Although, as a long term proposition, I really really love the idea of developing Bartram Island (the long island under the Dames Point). The army corps is actually building dykes along the island to accommodate extra fill from the dredging project. So basically, the Feds are lifting the island out of the flood zones for us! If it were feasible to add an exit off of 295, Bartram would be an amazing site for recreational areas, a cruise port, even luxury riverfront homes. It's actually an enormous island with a great footprint. Oh well ... one can always dream.

Quote"Mayport is still an extremely viable location," he said

.

10 to 1 odds they go for Mayport.  All the studies, design, land acquisition are done.  Like our road building agencies, once they begin designing it, the "boat" has left the "pier".  ;)  Public hearings are mostly a "procedural" task to implementing the underlying plan.

JPA backed off before to let the opposition cool off, they had more time to make a decision, and the economy was falling off a cliff.  JPA never actually changed their thinking from what I can tell.  Any alternative site reviews at this point will most likely by used to bolster their argument that no place is better than Mayport.

And, no way they are going to not have a cruise terminal here.  The dream for that is as old or older than the one for the Super Bowl.

What got it started was Savanna saying it would be happy to take those cruise liners. Mayport seems like a foregone conclusion let's just do this already.

Quote from: 02roadking on March 26, 2010, 02:31:03 PM
Jacksonville Port Authority Board Chairman David Kulik said today JaxPort is ready to resume considering construction of a cruise terminal at Mayport.

In addition to looking at port-owned land in Mayport, he said two other sites located east of the Dames Point bridge will also get scrutiny as potential sites for a cruise terminal.


http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-03-26/story/jaxport-restart-consideration-cruise-business-mayport

I think I already read this somewhere... :-\

Oh yeah, four posts ago.  ;D

Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 26, 2010, 04:20:21 PM

Quote from: 02roadking on March 26, 2010, 02:31:03 PM
Jacksonville Port Authority Board Chairman David Kulik said today JaxPort is ready to resume considering construction of a cruise terminal at Mayport.

In addition to looking at port-owned land in Mayport, he said two other sites located east of the Dames Point bridge will also get scrutiny as potential sites for a cruise terminal.


http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-03-26/story/jaxport-restart-consideration-cruise-business-mayport

I think I already read this somewhere... :-\

Oh yeah, four posts ago.  ;D

Wow...Maybe I should not start Happy Hour at Noon....kidding.

Okay so it's MAYPORT OR BUST!

It's not like we can build the thing on McGirt's Creek at Blanding, or Pottsburg at JTB...

Let's make this a contest between Ft. Caroline Road and Mayport and see which neighborhood gets the ships! No contest folks, much better to rebuild a wreck of a village, then to block the view from the Bentley.

OCKLAWAHA

This makes me wonder if "Vescor" is going for another low interest loan from the bank of Jacksonville.............or is this some other shell company?

I like the Bartram (formerly Quarantine) Island idea - but with upcoming channel deepening on the horizon, the Corps of Engineers is going to need every inch of that island - and maybe other places - for the dredge spoil.

Maybe this time around, JaxPort will be more sensitive to the Mayport community in their design.

I don't know how much more sensitive you can be to Mayport, considering what is there and/or isn't there now.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 26, 2010, 10:24:13 PM
I like the Bartram (formerly Quarantine) Island idea - but with upcoming channel deepening on the horizon, the Corps of Engineers is going to need every inch of that island - and maybe other places - for the dredge spoil.

Maybe this time around, JaxPort will be more sensitive to the Mayport community in their design.

I'm with Reednavy on this one Charles. Out side of designing a building that looks like a giant old Whirlpool washer from 1947, or an Edsel on concrete blocks, what more could be done??

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: reednavy on March 26, 2010, 10:34:31 PM
I don't know how much more sensitive you can be to Mayport, considering what is there and/or isn't there now.

The Mayport area would be better served bargaining for things they might want than fighting against what is going to happen.

They want to preserve their village, but they expect things to come to them apparently, not the other way around. Mayport, to be heard, you gotta speak up. I honestly don't see how thousands of tourists every week is a negative.

Gentlemen..........I have to disagree! From my discussions with some of the residents of Mayport, nobody wants a Cruise Terminal there! Granted Mayport is not the greatest village, but it is one of the few working fishing villages left......it is also Historical in nature and if I lived there I would have to say "Cruise Terminal my butt!" If it is not wanted, why go there? There are other locations available so why go where you are not wanted? Let them vegetate or isolate themselves, that should be their decision not Vescor's! I see no benefit for several thousand visitors showing up where is the plus side? Clogged roads, city services, management, wasted resources.......I could go on and on! Don't forget about the Navy coming back who will just love having a cruise ship in the neighborhood...I can see it now........full battle group going out and a cruise ship coming in, yea ..makes sense to me!

CS, Port Everglades is a port of call for the Navy and they dock beside cruise terminals, so that has zero to do with this. However, the cruise ship would have to wait offshore for a fleet to head out, and that goes w/o any hesitation.

Of coruse we could move the terminal, but that would require wasting more money into studies and such, when all that has been done and land bought for the current site.

Sorry Mayport, but your "historic" eyesore either can get this and prove to be a boom for the village, or you could continue on your current path to obscurity and vacant lots.

CS I could agree with you but I have eyes and have been to Mayport.

Not taking sides, reed, but I think what CS is saying is that Mayport has already decided that obscurity and vacant lots IS the path they want.

I have spent very little time in Mayport, and don't remember it too well.  What little I do remember was not visiually pleasing.  Strictly from the standpoint of the village residents, they have little to gain by a terminal.  The city as a WHOLE would benefit, but it would be at their expense. 

Their way of life is threatened, and since most don't seem to own their residences, they would not benefit from property value increases, but would instead lose their homes.     

It's really a shame the cruise terminal can't go DT, because that would be a great place for it, but for the Dames Point bridge clearance. 

Quote from: vicupstate on March 27, 2010, 07:23:48 PM
Not taking sides, reed, but I think what CS is saying is that Mayport has already decided that obscurity and vacant lots IS the path they want.

It's really a shame the cruise terminal can't go DT, because that would be a great place for it, but for the Dames Point bridge clearance. 

Unless by "downtown" you mean the Ford plant near the stadium - the Hart and Mathews bridges are more than 10 feet shorter than Dames Point (and the JEA power lines, same height as, and east of the DPB).

My earlier comment about sensitive in design, is not plop an ultra-modern design in the village, but something that reflects the history (and no, I don't mean it should look like single-wides).

Gentlemen.............I stand by my posts! Either way, for or against, for better or worse, Mayport deserves the opportunity to decide for themselves don't you think? Bank of Jacksonville may not be able to finance one more Vescor Project plain and simple. I don't know of any Cruise Line that will finance a "Terminal" which means private investors or other financial entity's! With the economy being what it is, I don't see Jacksonville being able to fund much of anything.........I mean after all, we are going to be $58 Million Dollars in the hole next October Budget cycle and if the City keeps going the way it is, Johnny may not make it to the end of his term...but that is just my take!

Yes the NIMBYs must always have the last say.

JeffreyS............I agree!

Quote from: CS Foltz on March 27, 2010, 10:26:33 PM
I don't know of any Cruise Line that will finance a "Terminal" which means private investors or other financial entity's! With the economy being what it is, I don't see Jacksonville being able to fund much of anything.........I mean after all, we are going to be $58 Million Dollars in the hole next October Budget cycle and if the City keeps going the way it is, Johnny may not make it to the end of his term...but that is just my take!

CS...there are situations where cruise companies have paid for portions of terminals...the newest one in Port Everglades for Royal Caribbean is one example.

Nevertheless, do you understand that a new terminal would likely be built by JPA....which is an independent authority, separate from the City? 

Most likely they will need to float bonds to build the terminal...and if the plan isn't good, they won't get the financing.

CS - I commend you for your passion! However, Mayport is going to lose, and the reason is that JaxPort and the CITY need this revenue and the handful of residents in Mayport will not be able to stop the steamroller of press that Nancy Rubin and the JaxPort are gearing up for now. Mayport can evolve as other communities have in the face of change. A new area for cruise ships could only add more focus and revenue to an area of town that is really forgotten. Cape Canaveral has found a way to make the 3 cruise ship terminals work there for their folks who live in the area, and just imagine the revenue 3 ships would bring to our area for small businesses and those who live at the beach as a new job opportunity.


With so much upside, and little downside for all of Jacksonville, I don't believe that Mayport stands a chance.

Ford Assembly Plant?

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/04/05/daily42.html

mtraininjax you do have a point! However there is one stumbling block I don't see Nancy Rubin or Jaxport end running............that would be funding! Unless they try and bond it out (maybe but not likely) City of Jacksonville won't be able fund squat and at the rate they are going, we may well be bankrupt by then! I have no preference one way or the other, but feel that Mayport deserves to float their own boat and Vescor is just interested in making money! That is my biggest gripe about the whole thing............Vescor is a boil on the back side of Jacksonville and yet we keep giving the our tax money (Thanks Johnny!) breaks on low interest loans, two that total $34.5 Million Dollars, interest only payments instead of principal plus interest and lets not forget about the property that was bought there in Mayport for Condos and Townhouses! Yeah...............Mr Rood is hard at work trying to earn a living right? Anyone want to bet that Gate Concrete will be involved in wharf and buildings if they ever got enough money together to build a Cruise Terminal? Mayport doesn't want it.........then move the damn thing, I mean eminent domain was used to acquire property for the Dames Point Shipping Facility where Hanjin is going to be hot and heavy...........those people did not want that there either! Rood wants a Cruise Terminal, they have to do something with the River spoils when they deepen the sea end of the St Johns so poof!!!!! Instant Island and instant cruise terminal property.............this is just my take!

Didn't Vestcor already sell all of their property in Mayport to JAXPORT?

Could not tell you lake.........did they?

Come.  On.

I think my 2 least favorite cities are now L.A. & Savannah (although it's sort of impossible to have disdain for Savannah).......
From The Jacksonville Business Journal:
Savannah gains in cruise pursuit

QuoteWhile the Jacksonville Port Authority decides how it will stay in the cruise business, its neighbor to the north is wasting no time getting in on the action â€" even if it means snatching cruise ships from Northeast Florida.
Savannah secured $50,000 in state funding to study building a home port for cruise ships, bring its research chest to $130,000.
This raises the flag to the cruise ship industry that we're taking this very seriously," said Alderman Tony Thomas, according to SMS reporter Lesley Conn. "We're advancing this to more of a reality to be a home port. If the feasibility study comes back positive, I believe Savannah is well-positioned to capitalize on a new extension of our tourism industry that could amount to tens of millions of dollars a year."
Savannah has already chosen a potential cruise terminal site. It expects to complete a cruise study by early fall.
Cruise consultant Peter Whelpton told the city in November that it could be home ports for ships with a 2,500 to 3,500 passenger capacity, according to the Savannah Morning News. If Savannah attracts cruise ships, it's unclear how it will affect Jacksonville.
A new Jacksonville cruise terminal is needed because the current site at Dames Point is the future home of Hanjin Shipping Co. Ltd.'s new container terminal, which is expected to open late 2013. According to the timeline given by David Kulik, authority board chairman, the port should make a decision by the end of this month.

From the Savannah Morning News:
http://savannahnow.com/exchange/2010-05-08/cruise-study-lands-50000-state-funds

Savannah will probably get all our cruise ships and more, Jaxport needed to have gotten on the road much sooner if they wanted to get a new cruise terminal in. Plus the Port of Savannah has a 55' deep shipping channels for their port and they only have one bridge to worry about, and it has 185' of clearance.

It is not JaxPort's fault that the folks in Mayport are stuck in the early-to-mid 1900's

Good move by Savannah.  If they can locate a terminal closer to the historic district, they won't have any bridge to worry about.  This is a competitive world and if we can't figure something out locally, you can bet your bottom dollar, if there's money to be made, another place will.

Hell although I hope Jax gets the ships a cruise with a day in Savannah tacked on sounds like a great promotion. And we will have the "lovely" ::) people of Mayport to thank.

(http://i937.photobucket.com/albums/ad214/mattius92/CruiseTerminalSites_edited.jpg)

Now look at this picture, there is more then just one place on the St. Johns that we can have a cruise terminal without the worries of the Dames. Also some are much more assessable then the Mayport site.

Recently visited Savannah.  While it's suburbs need some work (makes you really appreciate our sign and landscaping ordinances!), the historic downtown is something to behold.  Hundreds of tree lined city blocks and parks choked with tourists and downtown residents, almost all in buildings over 100 years old!  Who says historic preservation doesn't pay.  And, while their riverfront is nice, it's not nearly as nice as ours.  But, it sure is a lot busier.

Looking a little closer at Google maps, and the City's GIS, shows that Site 1 above is owned by the City and JaxPort - but road access would be through a neighborhood, on narrow, winding residential streets.  Bad enough for the cars going there, but a real problem for the semis needed to provision a large cruise ship.

Although I recognize the "box" for Site 2 is merely representational, about half of it is in the National Park Service's Fort Caroline and Ribault Monument areas.  In between are about a dozen riverfront homes.  The eastern end, currently used as a "sand mine" has possibilities.

QuoteEdited to Add: About Site 1, the JEA power lines - that have the same clearance as the Dames Point Bridge - cross from Blount Island (see the vertical line bisecting the island), and cross the Site (see the pylons in Mill Cove south of Site 1) - pushing the potential cruise ships right up next to those riverfront homes.

Jax should think "connectivity" when deciding on where the cruise port will go.  An isolated cruise port will have limited to little impact on surrounding businesses.  In Mayport, a well design terminal could easily achor the immediate redevelopment and revitalization of that entire waterfront and commercial district.  IMO, if we must stay east of the Dames Point, to get the most bang out of our buck, its Mayport or bust.

Quoteits Mayport or bust

Agreed, we need to create a critical mass out there. Mayport Road could see a revitalization and finally see cleanup. I don't think the citizens realize what can happen to have the ships come in at Mayport.

Also, ships are not getting smaller, and we are not about to jack up the Dames Point bridge, so GO EAST young man.

I agree Mayport is the best bet, but that cant be the only site that Jaxport is thinking of... Now some poeple talked about a cruise terminal in DT, first off we know that the bridges will cause height limitations, the Hart Bridge has 141' of clearance. However most major cruise ships require more then 200' of height clearance, so east of the Dames would be best for current and future cruise ships.

This is nice to see - although Grand Turk wouldn't be my first choice......I'm just happy to see Carnival continuing to be creative out of JAX.

Carnival adds longer cruise from Jax

QuoteCarnival Cruise Lines will add a seven-day service to eastern Caribbean starting in late April 2011, bringing its cruise services out of Jacksonville to three.

The new service to Grand Turk, the private Bahamian island of Half Moon Cay, Nassau, will complement Carnival’s existing four and five-day cruises to Bahamas and Key West. The added itinerary is in response to passenger feedback requesting more eastern Caribbean ports, particularly more secluded destinations, said Gerry Cahill, Carnival President and CEO, in a news release.

“Jacksonville has already proven to be a successful homeport based on the convenient cruise options that we offer to consumers from across the Southeastern U.S.,” said Jacksonville Port Authority CEO Rick Ferrin.

The amount of Cruise passengers hit a local record last year with 186,000 passengers. The number of passengers has grown by 34 percent since Carnival began sailing out of Jacksonville in 2005.

Reservations are being accepted for departure dates including April 30, May, 7, July 23 and 30, and Sept 17 and 24, 2011.

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2010/06/21/daily35.html

Slow news day, but the TU did report that the JPA has narrowed the sites down to Mayport and 2 west of the Dames Point bridge. Timken and FlaFor - I think the people in Mayport want your help to raise some cain and see if you can stop the economic engine of new jobs when the JPA folks choose Mayport.

QuoteNew thinking for port-owned land in Mayport eyes development without a cruise ship terminal

When angry words and lawsuits were flying in Mayport, Mikki Baldwin and her daughter took a walk on the waterfront and recalled how tightly their lives were tied to the long history of the little village.
Back then, residents like Baldwin felt powerless to stop the Jacksonville Port Authority from building a cruise terminal in Mayport. As the pair strolled that night, they came to a flagpole with the port authority banner on it. Baldwin decided something could be done, if only symbolically.

The next morning, that flag — that "slap in the face" — was hanging upside down.

Baldwin tells the story while recounting the once-rocky relationship between Mayport residents and the port authority, even as she looks forward to what she hopes will be a new chapter — one that absolutely doesn't involve a cruise ship terminal, as that idea has been scrapped.

Instead, JaxPort intends to join forces with the city's Office of Economic Development to attract private development for the 6 acres of property, most of which has sat idle since the port authority bought it eight years ago.

"I think whatever the project turns out to be, it will be something significant for the Mayport community," port authority board member Jim Citrano said.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-05-26/story/new-thinking-port-owned-land-mayport-eyes-development-without-cruise

I'd like to see somewhere that boats could stop and have lunch, etc.  For a city this large there really aren't that restaurants (or at least desirable ones) on the water that are easily accessible by boat.  Maybe something like Shem Creek in Mt Pleasant.

I still think the people that live in the "village" of Mayport are delusional about the character of their area and a cruise terminal makes sense there.

I'm from the Beach and i never understood the pushback against the cruise terminal. At any rate it's good that they're finally considering some other options.

You make a good point!  The Baldwins and Gulliford are portrayed as heroes and yet they set back Mayport's economy by at least five years.  With the realities of the US Fisheries and the fact that fresh water Aqua-culture and Aqua-phonics are the growing trend in provide fish products and freshwater shrimp the days of scores of fishing/shrimp boats being docked in Mayport are gone.  The Baldwins and Gulliford had better find an attraction to bring people into Mayport before planning all of this development.  Unfortunately the actions taken by the port under pressure from this group will prevent a cruise terminal for becoming an option once again.

I'm in the camp who also thought a cruise terminal would have been great for Mayport. Especially when it comes to supporting the retail/restaurants people say they want, as well as making the ferry more sustainable via the extra traffic. I wish them well but I think it may be a struggle.

How successful is the current cruise ship venue?  If it is doing well, would not moving the terminal to Mayport allow larger ships? Would a different cruise ship line be interested s there would be two terminals?

The current terminal is doing very well, but it's limited by the fact that it has to go under the bridge at low tide. Moving it to Mayport would be an excellent business move for both the city and the cruise lines. We could host 2 larger ships there and continue to keep the smaller terminal open if it still has demand. Currently all of the cruise lines are expanding their fleets... We need a piece of that pie

I never go to Mayport anymore.....
And if it follows the Jacksonville trend the handful of residents are going to have a long wait for any meaningful development.

I will literally never understand why a hundred people could stop a whole city from moving forward with a big asset... :-[