This is something that we first discussed more than a year ago.
And Jacksonville has the worst of all possible worlds. We also have a wingnut powerbase that would pretty much rather burn the city than engage in some non corrupt tax based infrastructure improvments. It doesnt reflect the citizens---the passage of the Better Jacksonville Plan proved that, If we can see what the money is being used for, and the tax is fair, the voters arent knee jerk wingnuts.
We need to convene a citywide disussion on our response for the next 5 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/opinion/29krugman.html?_r=2&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
50 Herbert Hoovers
Paul Krugman
No modern American president would repeat the fiscal mistake of 1932, in which the federal government tried to balance its budget in the face of a severe recession. The Obama administration will put deficit concerns on hold while it fights the economic crisis.
But even as Washington tries to rescue the economy, the nation will be reeling from the actions of 50 Herbert Hoovers â€" state governors who are slashing spending in a time of recession, often at the expense both of their most vulnerable constituents and of the nation’s economic future.
These state-level cutbacks range from small acts of cruelty to giant acts of panic â€" from cuts in South Carolina’s juvenile justice program, which will force young offenders out of group homes and into prison, to the decision by a committee that manages California state spending to halt all construction outlays for six months.
Now, state governors aren’t stupid (not all of them, anyway). They’re cutting back because they have to â€" because they’re caught in a fiscal trap. But let’s step back for a moment and contemplate just how crazy it is, from a national point of view, to be cutting public services and public investment right now.
Think about it: is America â€" not state governments, but the nation as a whole â€" less able to afford help to troubled teens, medical care for families, or repairs to decaying roads and bridges than it was one or two years ago? Of course not. Our capacity hasn’t been diminished; our workers haven’t lost their skills; our technological know-how is intact. Why can’t we keep doing good things?
It’s true that the economy is currently shrinking. But that’s the result of a slump in private spending. It makes no sense to add to the problem by cutting public spending, too.
In fact, the true cost of government programs, especially public investment, is much lower now than in more prosperous times. When the economy is booming, public investment competes with the private sector for scarce resources â€" for skilled construction workers, for capital. But right now many of the workers employed on infrastructure projects would otherwise be unemployed, and the money borrowed to pay for these projects would otherwise sit idle.
And shredding the social safety net at a moment when many more Americans need help isn’t just cruel. It adds to the sense of insecurity that is one important factor driving the economy down.
So why are we doing this to ourselves?
The answer, of course, is that state and local government revenues are plunging along with the economy â€" and unlike the federal government, lower-level governments can’t borrow their way through the crisis. Partly that’s because these governments, unlike the feds, are subject to balanced-budget rules. But even if they weren’t, running temporary deficits would be difficult. Investors, driven by fear, are refusing to buy anything except federal debt, and those states that can borrow at all are being forced to pay punitive interest rates.
Are governors responsible for their own predicament? To some extent. Arnold Schwarzenegger, in particular, deserves some jeers. He became governor in the first place because voters were outraged over his predecessor’s budget problems, but he did nothing to secure the state’s fiscal future â€" and he now faces a projected budget deficit bigger than the one that did in Gray Davis.
But even the best-run states are in deep trouble. Anyway, we shouldn’t punish our fellow citizens and our economy to spite a few local politicians.
What can be done? Ted Strickland, the governor of Ohio, is pushing for federal aid to the states on three fronts: help for the neediest, in the form of funding for food stamps and Medicaid; federal funding of state- and local-level infrastructure projects; and federal aid to education. That sounds right â€" and if the numbers Mr. Strickland proposes are huge, so is the crisis.
And once the crisis is behind us, we should rethink the way we pay for key public services.
As a nation, we don’t believe that our fellow citizens should go without essential health care. Why, then, does a large share of funding for Medicaid come from state governments, which are forced to cut the program precisely when it’s needed most?
An educated population is a national resource. Why, then, is basic education mainly paid for by local governments, which are forced to neglect the next generation every time the economy hits a rough patch?
And why should investments in infrastructure, which will serve the nation for decades, be at the mercy of short-run fluctuations in local budgets?
That’s for later. The priority right now is to fight off the attack of the 50 Herbert Hoovers, and make sure that the fiscal problems of the states don’t make the economic crisis even worse.
Krugman was on MSNBC last night clarifying his article.
That said, before deciding that Jax. is pushing for ridiculous things as part of the stimulus, I recommend that everyone peruse this site.
http://www.usmayors.org/ (http://www.usmayors.org/)
It lists out the proposals from each city along with a few summary reports.
Tufsu1, that's a great link. I think the push for "ready to go" projects is the major reason for some of the things showing up on these lists. I'm hoping that there will be an oversight committee to reject the majority of projects that don't align with Obama's platform.
Here is a list of major rail based mass transit requests (not including Miami-Dade County's requests):
Albuquerque - $90 million for streetcar starter line - 500 jobs
- $13.3 million for commuter rail platform/canopy improvements - 455 jobs
Atlanta - $121 million for two line streetcar system - 1,000 jobs
Austin - $337 million for urban commuter rail expansion - 6,275 jobs
Charlotte - $110 million for light rail extension - 1,100 jobs
Dearborn, MI - $27.4 million for commuter rail system (Detroit's) - 137 jobs
Denver - $88 million for Union Station improvements - 1,196 jobs
Detroit - $6 million for commuter rail system - 80 jobs
Duluth, MN - $24 million for downtown streetcar system - 336 jobs
Enfield, CT - $10 million for commuter rail station to New Haven
Englewood, CO - $7.2 million for light rail station - 120 jobs
Harrisburg, PA - $12 million for Amtrak corridor rail stations - 185 jobs
Jacksonville - $5 million for DT transportation center - 15 jobs
Lima, OH - $2.2 million for EIS for high speed rail line - 30 jobs
Madison, WI - $2 million for high speed rail train station - 11 jobs
Mesa - $390 million for light rail system - no jobs indicated
Miami - $150 million for metromover extension to Marlin's stadium - 3,000 jobs
- $280 million for Miami Streetcar system - 560 jobs
- $80 million for Brickell metromover extension - 600 jobs
Missouri City, TX - $500k for light rail study - 10 jobs
Moline, IL - $1.5 million for Centre Station improvements - 30 jobs
Norfolk - $4.9 million for light rail landscape improvements - 174 jobs
North Little Rock - $18 million for trolley barn expansion - 1 job
Orange, NJ - $2.25 million for train station improvements - 28 jobs
Philadelphia - $16 million for Broad Street Subway stations - 604 jobs
Phoenix - $130 million for light rail park-and-ride facilities - n/a jobs
Portland - $75 million for streetcar system - 600 jobs
Providence - $20 million for streetcar system - 400 jobs
Riverdale, IL - $700 million for METRA train station improvements - 17 jobs
Salt Lake City - $248 million for new light rail lines - 345 jobs
- $155 million for new streetcar system - 200 jobs
San Bernardino - $418 million for light rail system - 2,785 jobs
San Francisco - $305 million for rail enhancements - 350 jobs
San Jose - $$146 million for BART/High Speed Rail - 1,000 jobs
San Juan - $250 million for light rail system - 1,500 jobs
St. Louis - $987 million for MetroLink light rail extensions/upgrades - 22,614 jobs
- $35 million for loop streetcar system - 906 jobs
St. Paul - $10 million for Central Corridor light rail - 200 jobs
Thornton, CO - $40 million for grade separation for metro rail line - 490 jobs
Trenton - $100 million for light rail extension - 600 jobs
Tucson - $75 million for a modern streetcar system - 2,600 jobs
Winston-Salem - $14 million for a streetcar system - 80 jobs
http://www.usmayors.org/mainstreeteconomicrecovery/default.asp?Area=Transit
Wow 15 jobs just under St. Louis trying to create 23,520 jobs. Although they are trying to add BRT to what is a wonderful light rail metrolink.
QuoteNorth Little Rock - $18 million for trolley barn expansion - 1 job
WOW! I'm there for that job. Should pay at least 10 mil. Based on Jax standards, 60% corruption vig.
Jacksonville, you have been outdone by Little Rock.
Mr. Krugman, in the above article, certainly stays true to his ideological agenda. Unfortunately, he seems to now have a larger cheering section in the current political culture who don't understand, don't care, or don't have any problem with his suggestions at chipping away state and local government power, that closest to the people, and shifting it to the all-powerful, all-benevolent, federal government. In other words, you can't trust those "Hoovers"!! Hell, you can't even trust yourselves to do the right thing. But the Feds, especially now, you can.
His comments just ring out with fear and compassion. How can you leave the fate of the "children", the "sick", and the bridges and buildings collapsing all around you to all those local yokels out there who don't possess the brilliance and genius of the Washington elite. This is even more dire in our time of "emergency".
So, if you trust your children's education to the agenda of a self-exalting elite in Washingon, the debasement of the best medical system in the world, and the political rewards system gone amuck for tons of non-productive infrastructure work, please take Mr. Krugmans views at face value.
Quote from: jaxnative on December 31, 2008, 04:11:17 PM
Mr. Krugman, in the above article, certainly stays true to his ideological agenda. Unfortunately, he seems to now have a larger cheering section in the current political culture who don't understand, don't care, or don't have any problem with his suggestions at chipping away state and local government power, that closest to the people, and shifting it to the all-powerful, all-benevolent, federal government. In other words, you can't trust those "Hoovers"!! Hell, you can't even trust yourselves to do the right thing. But the Feds, especially now, you can.
His comments just ring out with fear and compassion. How can you leave the fate of the "children", the "sick", and the bridges and buildings collapsing all around you to all those local yokels out there who don't possess the brilliance and genius of the Washington elite. This is even more dire in our time of "emergency".
So, if you trust your children's education to the agenda of a self-exalting elite in Washingon, the debasement of the best medical system in the world, and the political rewards system gone amuck for tons of non-productive infrastructure work, please take Mr. Krugmans views at face value.
Well you know the old line about Mr Krugman, hes predicted 20 of the last 3 recessions.
Oddly enough Mr. Krugman also won the Nobel Prize for Economics this year....clearly he must be an idiot ;)
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 02, 2009, 12:23:22 AM
Note to liberals: Government does not "create" any jobs. It can just shuffle them around a bit, i.e. take one job away from the private sector and "create" one in the public sector. The net job gain is therefore zero, not even counting the opportunity costs of letting the clowns who run the government decide how to allocate resources which are far more efficiently distributed by the private sector.
how can you be so wrong?
If government decides to spend money on something...like infrastructure....then engineers, contractors, etc. get hired to complete the work....and the money they get paid goes into the economy creating jobs in the retail, housing, healthcare, etc. sectors.
the big difference between government spending vs. consumer spending is that it practically guarantees that the $ spent has some spinoff in the U.S.....and as long as income taxes aren't reduced, it also guarantees some return on the $ spent.
as a follow up to my previous post...
Second, this approach maintains jobs at a time in which jobs are being lost at a near-record pace. As CEO of an engineering company that has managed transportation projects throughout Florida for nearly 40 years, I know from first-hand experience that the road and bridge improvement projects on the books will create high-quality employment opportunities for engineers, planners, construction professionals, suppliers and more.
Finally, this spending will likely have a secondary impact on business spending and job creation. Companies employed to complete the work will need to spend a significant amount of the revenue they earn on employee salaries, employment costs for third-party vendors, support services such as legal and accounting, materials and supplies, etc. According to an FDOT study, every dollar invested in its five-year work program would generate approximately $5.60 in benefits. Now that's stimulating.
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/02/na-florida-needs-stimulus-package/news-opinion-commentary/ (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2009/jan/02/na-florida-needs-stimulus-package/news-opinion-commentary/)
and one more...
As evidence of the economic impact of such work, they cite President Ronald Reagan’s $12 billion investment in federal highways during the 1982 recession that created 700,000 jobs by 1985.
Comments River?
Quote from: stephendare on January 02, 2009, 12:41:06 AM
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 02, 2009, 12:23:58 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 31, 2008, 04:58:30 PM
Oddly enough Mr. Krugman also won the Nobel Prize for Economics this year....clearly he must be an idiot ;)
Are we still pretending that a Nobel Prize confers legitimacy on its recipient?
No one is pretending, monsieur le puddinhead. A Nobel Prize obviously confers legitimacy on its recipient.
Sorry but I don't worship at the altar of the Nobel prize. Krugman is a very sharp guy, but nothing he has done recently other than BDS op-eds in the NYT warranted a Nobel. I believe that was just another Nobel BDS (bush derangement syndrome) to go along with Carters, Harold Pintars and Al Gores. (who knew you could win a nobel for a Powerpoint presentation)
Has River admitted yet that he was completely wrong in his economic predictions? Until that happens, anything he says is of no value.
Interestingly... after all the discussion regarding Hong Kong, this little tidbit popped up...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_bi_ge/as_world_economic_freedom_1
QuoteHong Kong named world's freest economy
Tue Jan 13, 4:03 am ET
HONG KONG â€" Hong Kong has been named the world's freest economy for the 15th year in a row, according to an annual report released Tuesday by the conservative Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal that warns against government intervention amid the global economic crisis.
The Chinese territory, known for its low taxes and looser regulations, was followed by Singapore, Australia, Ireland and New Zealand, according to this year's Index of Economic Freedom.
European countries again accounted for half of the top 20 economies considered free or mostly free, with Switzerland at No. 9 and the U.K. at No. 10.
However, the U.S. slid one notch to sixth place, dinged for increased government spending and tax revenue as a percentage of gross domestic product, one of the survey's authors said.
Ranking at the bottom was North Korea, followed by next-to-last Zimbabwe, Cuba, Myanmar and Eritrea. The southern African country, whose economy is in meltdown after years of state-endorsed violence and business controls, posted the biggest drop in this year's report.
The survey, which gauges 179 countries on 10 economic factors like trade barriers, property rights, taxes and market regulations, covers the year ending in June 2008, before the global meltdown led governments around the world to bailout financial institutions.
While free-market policies have been widely criticized for precipitating the current global financial and economic crisis, the report's authors defended free capitalist systems and argued against massive government as a threat to growth.
"Yes, there may be temporary ups and down, but in the long run more economic freedom leads to more wealth for more people than any other system," Edwin Feulner, president of Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based think tank, told reporters in Hong Kong.
"There is no escaping the fact that the freer the economy the more it flourishes," he said.
While Hong Kong has long been seen as a shining example of free-market capitalism, much of its economy is controlled by a small group of tycoons and cartels.
Government regulators, meanwhile, have been criticized in recent months for not doing more to protect local investors who bought Lehman Brothers-backed products that are likely worthless in the aftermath of the Wall Street firm's collapse.
Hong Kong is by far my favorite city... I was lucky to have spent 5 days there. I intend to go back.
Same view (Victoria Peak)circa 1966... note the Aircraft Carrier in center...
(http://k53.pbase.com/g2/90/668790/2/65818680.UAG4O2U1.jpg)
so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?
oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 13, 2009, 09:29:39 PM
so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?
oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!
The only drawback, is that Dubai is a sheikdom with huge natural resources that require absolutley minimal personal creativity or initiative to generate wealth. And if they need any work done they hire foreigners, few natives do any work. The underlying oil make the UAE states an anomoly.
RG - I don't necessarily love government....but you portrayed that all of the growth in Hong Kong was the result of free market capitalism....all I did was question that.
Now, I will admit that I tend toward the socialist side of things as an ideal....but I am not dumb enough to believe that it alone is the answer...there should be a balance between capitalism and socialism....agreed?
Quote from: civil42806 on January 13, 2009, 10:29:46 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 13, 2009, 09:29:39 PM
so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?
oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!
The only drawback, is that Dubai is a sheikdom with huge natural resources that require absolutley minimal personal creativity or initiative to generate wealth. And if they need any work done they hire foreigners, few natives do any work. The underlying oil make the UAE states an anomoly.
but the reason Dubai is being developed is that the government saw the writing on the wall....they believe their oil resources will be gone in the next 15-20 years, so they are trying to create a new economic base....one that is based on tourism and the like.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 14, 2009, 07:59:28 AM
Quote from: civil42806 on January 13, 2009, 10:29:46 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 13, 2009, 09:29:39 PM
so...nothing in those pictures is a result of government programs?
oh, and btw...pics of Dubai show the same type of growth, but even more dramatic (its all in the last 15 years)...and almost all of that has been done with goivernment spending!
The only drawback, is that Dubai is a sheikdom with huge natural resources that require absolutley minimal personal creativity or initiative to generate wealth. And if they need any work done they hire foreigners, few natives do any work. The underlying oil make the UAE states an anomoly.
but the reason Dubai is being developed is that the government saw the writing on the wall....they believe their oil resources will be gone in the next 15-20 years, so they are trying to create a new economic base....one that is based on tourism and the like.
Absolutely agree tufusu1, I worked and lived in Abu Dhabi for a few years and traveled to Dubai, Bahrain and Saudi on business. The company that employed me in Abu Dhabi was set up for the exact reason you discussed they hoped that it would stimulate the economy and provide employement for the locals. Instead, Management/engineering were all Brits and Americans, and the workers were all Pakistanis and Phillapinos. The closest we saw to a Native working was when the sheik would pass through to grace us with his presence.
I just don't see it working out in the long term for Dubai, there is no real freedom of speech, press is controlled not as tight as in some areas and its still in the middle of the desert, but does have beautiful beaches. Personal initiative amongst the locals is almost non existent, other thang banging there heads on the floor 3 times a day. I believe when the money runs out on the oil the desert will reclaim all those gleaming towers that the government is building. The UAE has a pretty seamy underside under all that glittering shiny glass that they are putting up.
Your experiences mirror mine civil... I spent time in Saudi Arabia (Dhahran) and Bahrain (Manama). Most arabs that I saw did not work. Nearly all labor is supplied by Pakisatan and Phillipines. Brits and Americans supply all technical and consulting and the arabs sign checks. Not sure about Dubai but in Bahrain you could actually get a drink in resterants and bars... We always secretly snickered at the Saudi men who would cross the bridge to Bahrain to party...
Have you ever been to Israel RG?
Its hardly a socialist country....now there used to be many kibbutzim that were based on socialist principles, but almost all of them are now market-based.
Israel promises citizenship to any Jew around the world...and has taken in many Soviet and Ethipioan Jews who came with nothing and didn't know the language.
Also, you might want to take note of what they have done with their country...in 1917, it was almost entirely desert...now its a technologically advanced nation-state....and most of the changes have occurred since 1948!
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 14, 2009, 06:37:09 PM
Finally, analyze the fact that Israel has not seen as much growth as the US or HK in the latter half of the 20th century while "enjoying" a socialist economy and also considering that financial success Jews enjoy elsewhere in the world.
I have to side with tufsu on this comment. I have been to Israel and, take away the Hebrew and ancient archaeological sites, you would think you were in any major highly developed capitalistic area of the US.
Israel also has lots of very advanced and developed high tech companies, including medical, defense, food science, software, and semiconductor industries. I don't think they would be thriving without a good dose of capitalistic spirit. Aside from tourism, technology is likely their biggest export from what I have read. As an aside, its educational system and universities are also top notch (maybe we could learn a lesson about the value of investing more in our educational system for the good of our future).
Its really amazing when you consider they have no oil, very little fresh water or other natural resources, are essentially in a desert, are totally surrounded by nations hostile to them, been through countless wars, have to devote much of their population and resources to self defense, it's one of the world's smallest countries, and last year turned just 60 years old as a country. I doubt any country has come so far and been through so much with so little in so short a time.
I don't want to start any kind of Mideast debate here but I would like to make a general observation. When you see how geographically "intimate", and sometimes intermingled, Israel is with the West Bank and Gaza - not to mention its borders with Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon - it's incredible there isn't more conflict. (The entire country would fit approximately between the Georgia state line and Daytona and isn't wider than Duval County in most places. From the Golan Hights at the Syrian border to the west, you can see the other side of the country to the east at the Mediterannean Sea.) In places, it's like if San Marco was at war with San Jose with the literal ability to just drive down the road to cross from one side to the other at a traffic light. Traditionally, they have had a pourous, ever-changing, and transparent "zone" to set Israeli's and Palestinians apart (at least prior to the "wall" recently built in some areas). You have to go there to understand how Israelis and Palestinians so closely co-exist and are, often times, almost "on top of each other". Once you do, you realize why peace there is so hard to come by given their persistant adversarial feelings toward each other. Truly remarkable.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on January 14, 2009, 09:38:27 AM
Your experiences mirror mine civil... I spent time in Saudi Arabia (Dhahran) and Bahrain (Manama). Most arabs that I saw did not work. Nearly all labor is supplied by Pakisatan and Phillipines. Brits and Americans supply all technical and consulting and the arabs sign checks. Not sure about Dubai but in Bahrain you could actually get a drink in resterants and bars... We always secretly snickered at the Saudi men who would cross the bridge to Bahrain to party...
Ever spend any time in the Holiday inn or Hiltons Bar in Manama? I was MEEster Tim to the waitresses at both. Yes you can certainly get a drink in almost all of the UAE, I always got a kick at watching the backed up cars on the bridgeway between Saudi and Bahrain on a thursday night.
Laffer Investments portfolio performance: -48.7%
Well, river, what say you?
Can you imagine getting you news and views from these people?
The Dow will be at 16,000?
Merrill Lynch a bargain at $70.00?
A spectacularly run company?
What a bunch of delusional morons.
Ben Stein should have stuck to the clear eyes commercials. Maybe he should have used the product and he would have been able to see the coming train wreck.
It's funny how history has a way of proving them wrong. The people who watched them and took their word as gospel must feel like real fools.
On the other hand, investing with Vince from Sham-Wow! has turned out much better, right, RG?