Anyone else feel like downtown vagrancy is getting worse in the last few months in the northbank core?
I've always been of the opinion that the homeless "problem" downtown is way overblown and that people are too quick to equate homelessness with danger.
But man, it feels like I'm encountering more and more people lately who seem genuinely unhinged.
Less, "I feel like this guy has had a rough life and probably has some mental health issues," and more, "I wonder if this dude screaming obscenities at the air and lunging at shadows is going to stab me as I walk down Hogan Street.
When you work downtown every day for long enough, you start to recognize the regular homeless crowd, taking advantage of the missions, hanging out in the park, walking around mumbling or sleeping on the sidewalks.
Feels like I'm starting to see a lot of new, angrier folk that I've never seen before. Appearing, at least on the surface, to be more clearly mentally unhealthy and/or under the influence.
Absolutely agree, unfortunately.
I feel like every time someone brings it up, it's like if they're saying we need to do something about it than others are like, "you're being insensitive to the homeless."
But, both can be true: You can be sensitive to the homeless and recognize that throwing them in Jail isn't the overall answer, while still recognizing it's become a MUCH bigger problem since Covid started.
^So much, this.
It can be hard to address and discuss without appearing insensitive.
So many external factors play in to homelessness and vagrancy, including mental health and socioeconomics, and I genuinely feel bad for people who find themselves on the streets due to circumstance.
That said, there's also this growing, kinda of ominous vibe on the streets sometimes that I haven't really felt since I started working down here in 2017. Kinda feels like we're marching toward a tragedy somewhere.
I've noticed the same. I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying? Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days. Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.
The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet. If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large. Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.
Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.
It's out of control. The riverwalk corkscrew turns into a hobo motel at dusk. Last week I saw a lady sitting on a bench at the top just smoking a crack pipe like it wasn't a thing. A couple weeks before that I was on my bike downtown and one of them had stolen the top jar from Spliffs and was running down the street with it being chased by staff.
The city needs to do something, insensitive or not I don't care. It's absolutely a major problem for bringing people downtown. Noone wants to deal with that.
Yes, the issue is getting worse. The main culprit is the housing crisis and vastly increasing rents. It's not only a Jax or Florida problem but it's especially acute here due to the high population growth and too little supply.
Quote from: simms3 on March 03, 2023, 05:02:37 PM
I've noticed the same. I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying? Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days. Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.
The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet. If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large. Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.
Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.
The West Coast has a worse homeless crisis because they have a worse housing crisis. It has nothing to do with "homeless advocacy", and it'll affect us soon enough. Considering the far lower incomes, Florida's housing unaffordability is already as bad as California's, and the problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
If you want the problem fixed, talk to your state, local and federal representatives. Local zoning is the main culprit behind the housing crisis nationwide. In Florida, successive legislatures have also gutted the Sadowski Trust for affordable housing.
[/soapbox]
It's getting worse everywhere. The scene in Downtown San Diego two weeks ago:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TtxnKhH/0/X2/i-TtxnKhH-X2.jpg)
So, I guess what I don't understand is this:
Zero doubt that Jacksonville, like many other metros, is at absolute crisis level in terms of affordable housing.
But why do so many of downtown Jax's new homeless disproportionately appear to be either:
1) Visibly under the influence, or addicted to, very heavy drugs
2) Or, stark-raving insane
I mean, no shades of gray. In the last week alone, I've seen a gentleman with track marks on his arms whispering up a tree. I've seen a woman walking backward into heavy traffic and nearly getting run over mumbling to herself. I've seen a man stalking Hogan Street shouting to the air that he was going to "fuck you up if you don't keep walking." I've seen a guy laying in front of the Main Library eating a paper bag.
With the qualification that there's obviously a socioeconomic element to substance abuse and a causal connection between homelessness and drug abuse definitely exists, it feels like what we're seeing in the northbank core in the last few months is as much a drug problem as it is a housing problem.
Do we posit that the addicts (or deeply disturbed mentally to the point that they appear under the influence) turning downtown into The Last of Us as of late are newly homeless or displaced?
Do we posit that it's a fentanyl/meth/crack problem, with cheap street drugs becoming more widely available in the region?
I feel like I've got a pretty long post history here dismissing opinions that homelessness and safety are a genuine problem downtown relative other cities, or even other areas in Jax like Five Points, but it's kind of gotten to the point where I genuinely worry about young employees walking to the parking garage alone after work.
Feels like the police have been a little more of a non-presence as well, particularly after 5.
Coincidental, I came across this article a couple of hours before reading this thread. It speaks to virtually every item spoken about here.
Everything you think you know about Homelessness is wrong
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email (https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)
Quote from: vicupstate on March 04, 2023, 03:40:08 PM
Coincidental, I came across this article a couple of hours before reading this thread. It speaks to virtually every item spoken about here.
Everything you think you know about Homelessness is wrong
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email (https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)
Really, really interesting stuff.
Thanks for posting, Vic.
Pretty wild stat from the article:
"The best evidence suggests that a 10% rise in housing costs in a pricey city prompts an 8% jump in homelessness."
Any idea what the gap looks like in Jax particularly between affordable housing supply and need/demand?
Quote from: vicupstate on March 04, 2023, 03:40:08 PM
Coincidental, I came across this article a couple of hours before reading this thread. It speaks to virtually every item spoken about here.
Everything you think you know about Homelessness is wrong
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email (https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/everything-you-think-you-know-about?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email)
The is substack post is a very academic/naive perspective on the issue. Saying "just add housing" to dramatically decrease homelessness isn't a honest representation.
A few points:
> The housing needs to be cheap or free, open to recent evictions, open to all types of criminal records, open to accepting vouchers or non-traditional payment, lenient with timing of rent payments, lenient with behaviors of tenants, and patient with the tenant and program (assuming there is one) which is paying rent for the tenant. You'll notice our local homeless advocacy leaders don't ask for housing, they ask for "deeply affordable housing" which is short hand for the list of ideal housing qualities above.
> Even with free or discounted housing, these tenants often require significant managing to stay housed. That means staff. Staff, especially effective staff, are a large expense not factored in most projections.
> Most homeless people aren't the ones camping on sidewalks or acting crazy in public. Most you'd never notice, because they sleep in their car, couch surf, find a secluded area, or stay at a shelter and their behavior isn't abnormal. The homeless people you tend to notice in public often do have mental health/substance abuse/chronic poor judgment issues. They're not the majority, but they're obvious and high needs.
Sure, if you just add a bunch of new housing units to X area, there's bound to be some existing housing that gets devalued enough to accept most of my first bullet point. Sort of like trickle down economics.... trickle down housing. Housing created intentionally for this type of tenant is less attractive to do, but needed more than just adding generic housing, as the substack presents.
^^
The article is basically saying that 1) a simple lack of affordable housing is the lion share of the problem and 2) while mental illness, addiction, etc. are all components of the problem, even if/when those issues are addressed, those same folks are still not going to be able to afford housing regardless.
That Houston has reduced Homelessness by 60% since 2011 is pretty astounding, particularly when that is the same period that housing got so much more unaffordable in a vast swath of the country. Perhaps a deep dive on that city would be beneficial to solving this very complex problem. I have to wonder if the famously zoning-free aspect of Houston has facilitated their solutions. NIMBY opposition to higher density seems to play a big part in unaffordability generally.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 05, 2023, 06:19:46 PM
^^
The article is basically saying that 1) a simple lack of affordable housing is the lion share of the problem and 2) while mental illness, addiction, etc. are all components of the problem, even if/when those issues are addressed, those same folks are still not going to be able to afford housing regardless.
There in lies the rub.
Most homeless people aren't problematic and are relatively invisible.
A smaller potion of homeless people are very visible and problematic.
So, there's a simple fix* for the invisible problem, no simple fix for the visible problem.
*simple in theory.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 03, 2023, 05:34:35 PM
Yes, the issue is getting worse. The main culprit is the housing crisis and vastly increasing rents. It's not only a Jax or Florida problem but it's especially acute here due to the high population growth and too little supply.
Quote from: simms3 on March 03, 2023, 05:02:37 PM
I've noticed the same. I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying? Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days. Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.
The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet. If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large. Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.
Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.
The West Coast has a worse homeless crisis because they have a worse housing crisis. It has nothing to do with "homeless advocacy", and it'll affect us soon enough. Considering the far lower incomes, Florida's housing unaffordability is already as bad as California's, and the problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
This is absolutely not true and a myth. I'm not saying there's *no* homeless people/families that were "priced out". BUT I lived in the Tenderloin in San Francisco for 2 years and got pretty acquainted with the world famous homeless population there, both from volunteering and from living. I also developed a drug problem myself out there - hard drugs. I nearly lived that life myself. All from my own choices. I lived within a half mile of 36 needle exchanges and the politics there absolutely encourages it. Nearly NONE of the homeless people there were from San Francisco and 100% of them were on hard drugs, often meth.
Additionally nearly 100% of all housing starts in SF for the past 5 years have been affordable housing and housing for "formerly homeless". The homelessness gets worse and worse no matter how many units are built. It's not a housing problem, but a spiritual problem. Many of the homeless on the street in SF actually had a home, as well, believe it or not.
Just giving a meth/fentanyl addict a home does not prevent said addict from being on the street and going insane (and in my opinion being possessed). I am a born again Christian, and took a HARD turn to the Lord. I was literally running around from my demons on the streets there and was helped by Catholic priests when I seeked that help, realizing the hard way that the devil is real and I needed the Lord to save me. I took 2 RCIA classes and became a convert, and I'm a dedicated practicing Catholic to this day, completely clean, homeowner, good job, productive contributing citizen rescued from the HELL that is San Francisco (and unfortunately so many big cities today). When a culture is rotten, it's easy to take a wrong turn and suffer hard consequences.
There is a massive drug problem impacting our country. There is total moral and cultural rot that is affecting our cities, and it's even more widespread than that now. There is a true spiritual battle out there. As more and more people have turned away from the Lord, look at the downward slope we are all on. There is a massive misguided moral dilemma that is absolutely increasing our homeless population.
When I talk to anyone above the age of 55 they recall a time in our cities when there simply weren't homeless people, but there was also better enforcement of "loitering laws" and other laws too that just held people to a higher standard. Lots more people went to church and put their faith and trust in the Lord. There's just too much evidence out there for this, but it is prophesied over and over in the Bible "although they claimed to be wise they became fools".
Having dealt with the epicenter of zombiism myself, I refuse to cave into these misguided principles that it's all people just priced out and they just can't work. I pass too many healthy looking men on medians around this city who CAN work but DON'T. That's not something I'm looking to solve by just giving my hard-worked tax dollars over to a home for them (which won't actually help them). They need fixing first, and it starts with fixing the addiction and the heart/soul.
^^
I think in the case of San Francisco, it is a matter of the city becoming a mecca for Homelessness, such that even though new housing is taking formerly homeless off the street, those numbers are simply replaced with homeless that have been drawn there from other places. That could certainly explain what you witnessed. There is a real danger in making homelessness too permissible or even 'comfortable' or to facilitate bad choices. As someone over 55, I can attest that homelessness was a rarity in the '70's but I can also attest that the cost of housing has exploded far beyond normal inflation since then too. In 1996, my PITI was less than $650 a month for a recently renovated 2 Br/ 2 Ba home. Today that MIGHT get you a room rental (roommate situation) in a mobile home, several miles from the urban core. For comparison, the minimum wage was $4.75 then and it is $7.25 today.
Laying blame on "housing affordability" for the rise in downtown vagrancy is like blaming food inflation on the explosion of shoplifting in San Francisco. It's simply a tolerated behavior which in turn manifests itself into a bigger problem over time. As long as junkies are allowed to do whatever they want on the streets, they will continue to do so regardless of housing costs. While in San Diego a few weeks ago, literally saw vagrants emptying their urine bags onto the sidewalk in front of police. Nobody batted an eye. Tolerated behavior.
Quote from: simms3 on March 06, 2023, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 03, 2023, 05:34:35 PM
Yes, the issue is getting worse. The main culprit is the housing crisis and vastly increasing rents. It's not only a Jax or Florida problem but it's especially acute here due to the high population growth and too little supply.
Quote from: simms3 on March 03, 2023, 05:02:37 PM
I've noticed the same. I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying? Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days. Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.
The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet. If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large. Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.
Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.
The West Coast has a worse homeless crisis because they have a worse housing crisis. It has nothing to do with "homeless advocacy", and it'll affect us soon enough. Considering the far lower incomes, Florida's housing unaffordability is already as bad as California's, and the problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
This is absolutely not true and a myth. I'm not saying there's *no* homeless people/families that were "priced out". BUT I lived in the Tenderloin in San Francisco for 2 years and got pretty acquainted with the world famous homeless population there, both from volunteering and from living. I also developed a drug problem myself out there - hard drugs. I nearly lived that life myself. All from my own choices. I lived within a half mile of 36 needle exchanges and the politics there absolutely encourages it. Nearly NONE of the homeless people there were from San Francisco and 100% of them were on hard drugs, often meth.
It's true. The housing crisis is the main culprit of the homelessness crisis (go figure). The homeless people you happened to see from your apartment and office are not necessarily representative of the wider population. Your perceptions are not reality.
Quote from: simms3 on March 06, 2023, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 03, 2023, 05:34:35 PM
Additionally nearly 100% of all housing starts in SF for the past 5 years have been affordable housing and housing for "formerly homeless". The homelessness gets worse and worse no matter how many units are built. It's not a housing problem, but a spiritual problem. Many of the homeless on the street in SF actually had a home, as well, believe it or not.
San Francisco is notoriously behind on creating new housing. The entire Bay Area and much of the West Coast is too. It would take them years to have any impact on the current problem even if they built nothing BUT affordable housing.
Quote from: simms3 on March 06, 2023, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 03, 2023, 05:34:35 PM
Just giving a meth/fentanyl addict a home does not prevent said addict from being on the street and going insane (and in my opinion being possessed). I am a born again Christian, and took a HARD turn to the Lord. I was literally running around from my demons on the streets there and was helped by Catholic priests when I seeked that help, realizing the hard way that the devil is real and I needed the Lord to save me. I took 2 RCIA classes and became a convert, and I'm a dedicated practicing Catholic to this day, completely clean, homeowner, good job, productive contributing citizen rescued from the HELL that is San Francisco (and unfortunately so many big cities today). When a culture is rotten, it's easy to take a wrong turn and suffer hard consequences.
Quote from: simms3 on March 06, 2023, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 03, 2023, 05:34:35 PM
I'm glad you've found something that makes you happy and gives you meaning, but again, your personal experience and perceptions aren't representative.
There is a massive drug problem impacting our country. There is total moral and cultural rot that is affecting our cities, and it's even more widespread than that now. There is a true spiritual battle out there. As more and more people have turned away from the Lord, look at the downward slope we are all on. There is a massive misguided moral dilemma that is absolutely increasing our homeless population.
When I talk to anyone above the age of 55 they recall a time in our cities when there simply weren't homeless people, but there was also better enforcement of "loitering laws" and other laws too that just held people to a higher standard. Lots more people went to church and put their faith and trust in the Lord. There's just too much evidence out there for this, but it is prophesied over and over in the Bible "although they claimed to be wise they became fools".
Having dealt with the epicenter of zombiism myself, I refuse to cave into these misguided principles that it's all people just priced out and they just can't work. I pass too many healthy looking men on medians around this city who CAN work but DON'T. That's not something I'm looking to solve by just giving my hard-worked tax dollars over to a home for them (which won't actually help them). They need fixing first, and it starts with fixing the addiction and the heart/soul.
Uhh, okay dude. Now you've totally lost the thread. That's a lot of rhetoric wrapped up in a lot of personal opinion, not the facts of the situation.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on March 06, 2023, 10:07:21 AM
Laying blame on "housing affordability" for the rise in downtown vagrancy is like blaming food inflation on the explosion of shoplifting in San Francisco. It's simply a tolerated behavior which in turn manifests itself into a bigger problem over time. As long as junkies are allowed to do whatever they want on the streets, they will continue to do so regardless of housing costs. While in San Diego a few weeks ago, literally saw vagrants emptying their urine bags onto the sidewalk in front of police. Nobody batted an eye. Tolerated behavior.
We're talking about a few different things here. One is homelessness, the other is problem behaviors associated with the homeless which is definitely exacerbated by drugs, alcohol and mental illness. Most homeless people are not doing those things, but the numbers are increasing to the point that the problem behaviors are more visible and more in the open. And of course, homelessness itself has a causal effect on drugs and alcohol and mental health breakdowns. Cracking down on troublemakers behaviors isn't going to make the tent cities go away or keep people from getting evicted and spiraling.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 06, 2023, 03:49:43 PM
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on March 06, 2023, 10:07:21 AM
Laying blame on "housing affordability" for the rise in downtown vagrancy is like blaming food inflation on the explosion of shoplifting in San Francisco. It's simply a tolerated behavior which in turn manifests itself into a bigger problem over time. As long as junkies are allowed to do whatever they want on the streets, they will continue to do so regardless of housing costs. While in San Diego a few weeks ago, literally saw vagrants emptying their urine bags onto the sidewalk in front of police. Nobody batted an eye. Tolerated behavior.
We're talking about a few different things here. One is homelessness, the other is problem behaviors associated with the homeless which is definitely exacerbated by drugs, alcohol and mental illness. Most homeless people are not doing those things, but the numbers are increasing to the point that the problem behaviors are more visible and more in the open. And of course, homelessness itself has a causal effect on drugs and alcohol and mental health breakdowns. Cracking down on troublemakers behaviors isn't going to make the tent cities go away or keep people from getting evicted and spiraling.
I have no idea on what would completely fix the homeless problem. The human condition ensures there will always be crazies among us. All I know is that allowing certain behaviors to go unchecked does more overall harm than good. So unless City Hall truly doesn't mind seeing parts of our city become mini versions of Austin, Portland, Seattle, SF, etc... then we do need law enforcement to be a bit more proactive.
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on March 06, 2023, 04:31:58 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 06, 2023, 03:49:43 PM
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on March 06, 2023, 10:07:21 AM
Laying blame on "housing affordability" for the rise in downtown vagrancy is like blaming food inflation on the explosion of shoplifting in San Francisco. It's simply a tolerated behavior which in turn manifests itself into a bigger problem over time. As long as junkies are allowed to do whatever they want on the streets, they will continue to do so regardless of housing costs. While in San Diego a few weeks ago, literally saw vagrants emptying their urine bags onto the sidewalk in front of police. Nobody batted an eye. Tolerated behavior.
We're talking about a few different things here. One is homelessness, the other is problem behaviors associated with the homeless which is definitely exacerbated by drugs, alcohol and mental illness. Most homeless people are not doing those things, but the numbers are increasing to the point that the problem behaviors are more visible and more in the open. And of course, homelessness itself has a causal effect on drugs and alcohol and mental health breakdowns. Cracking down on troublemakers behaviors isn't going to make the tent cities go away or keep people from getting evicted and spiraling.
I have no idea on what would completely fix the homeless problem. The human condition ensures there will always be crazies among us. All I know is that allowing certain behaviors to go unchecked does more overall harm than good. So unless City Hall truly doesn't mind seeing parts of our city become mini versions of Austin, Portland, Seattle, SF, etc... then we do need law enforcement to be a bit more proactive.
In terms of the homeless population growing, it's already happening here. We're already as unaffordable as California considering the much lower incomes. In terms of stopping problem behaviors, maybe enforcement will help, but literally no one has come up with a great solution.
Hard to compare the solutions in CA to many other places. CA lacks available land and most of it is SFH's with plp who are very against any multi-family. They have done basically everything to create an affordable housing crisis.. while also completely lacking public transit.
NYC is somewhat the gold standard for affordability and access to housing. It is by some metrics the "richest" city in the world, certainly high up there income wise.. They have a massive transit network to allow for lower-income workers to live close enough to not make the commute excessive. They also give development entitlements specifically geared towards fixed-income housing & transit lines.. which has made a massive difference now several years into the program.
Ultimately for JAX, utilizing TOD hubs and development intensity incentives for fixed-income units would help a ton. We have this TOD program & zoning, with absolutely zero true TOD projects. Well.. that's how you can build smaller, cheaper units, while still making the planning & building department happy. Otherwise we will keep seeing the same types of projects for the same type of user.
Also, the system we have now of low-income or market rate properties is another form of housing segregation. Many cities recognized this after the fact and now force market rate properties to have a certain % be lower-income. Not saying we do that, but having a density bonus for requiring more affordable units, makes land more valuable & serves a public purpose.
Just some things that I feel like could help JAX's housing affordability issue.
I would suggest, as reflected in the prior comments on this thread, that homelessness and vagrancy are complex problems. One solution is not going to work. It is a combination of housing access, mental illness, addiction and whatever else the stories of such people reveal. It will take a multipronged approach to solve the problem: More affordable housing, effective mental health resources, drug addiction treatment centers, etc. The issue underlying all of this is funding sources.
And, no matter what, as WDJF notes, we are unlikely to ever totally eliminate the problem, people being what they are.
A bit of Jax history regarding vagrancy from 1972: Jax is responsible for the U.S. Supreme Court throwing out virtually every vagrancy law in the U.S. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papachristou_v._City_of_Jacksonville#:~:text=The%20court%20held%20that%20a,encouraged%20arbitrary%20arrests%20and%20convictions.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 06, 2023, 06:09:13 PM
I would suggest, as reflected in the prior comments on this thread, that homelessness and vagrancy are complex problems. One solution is not going to work. It is a combination of housing access, mental illness, addiction and whatever else the stories of such people reveal. It will take a multipronged approach to solve the problem: More affordable housing, effective mental health resources, drug addiction treatment centers, etc. The issue underlying all of this is funding sources.
And, no matter what, as WDJF notes, we are unlikely to ever totally eliminate the problem, people being what they are.
A bit of Jax history regarding vagrancy from 1972: Jax is responsible for the U.S. Supreme Court throwing out virtually every vagrancy law in the U.S. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papachristou_v._City_of_Jacksonville#:~:text=The%20court%20held%20that%20a,encouraged%20arbitrary%20arrests%20and%20convictions.
Worth pointing out that in Simms' post about how great things were back when there were vagrancy laws - this is what vagrancy laws looked like.
QuoteWe're already as unaffordable as California considering the much lower incomes.
With all due respect, Florida does not even play the same game as California.... much less be in California's league.
QuoteThey have done basically everything to create an affordable housing crisis
100% accurate.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 06, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
QuoteWe're already as unaffordable as California considering the much lower incomes.
With all due respect, Florida does not even play the same game as California.... much less be in California's league.
QuoteThey have done basically everything to create an affordable housing crisis
100% accurate.
Functionally, it's true. Most people here can't afford the median home price (to a similar percentage as in California), as even though the price is less than CA, wages are too. That's a problem that's only getting worse, especially as we're not doing much to avoid it.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on March 06, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
QuoteWe're already as unaffordable as California considering the much lower incomes.
With all due respect, Florida does not even play the same game as California.... much less be in California's league.
QuoteThey have done basically everything to create an affordable housing crisis
100% accurate.
Functionally, it's true. Most people here can't afford the median home price (to a similar percentage as in California), as even though the price is less than CA, wages are too. That's a problem that's only getting worse, especially as we're not doing much to avoid it.
California is dead last in both Cost of Living and Housing Affordability. Florida has a housing affordability problem (that's statistically much less than California, by whatever metric you use), that is largely driven by an undersupply of homes and rapidly increasing demand.
Florida also has the ability to alter this affordability problem... something California simply does not have the land supply (capacity) and functional ability (land use and taxation policies) to begin to unwind.
In the Bay Area and the LA Basin, you have large swaths of land that has no legal basis for development rights due to agricultural buffers, hillside easements, and various growth boundaries. You have a zoning code throughout CA that has massively favored single family homes... so while the major metro areas are dense from a building capacity, the density is severely underpopulated due to the overwhelming underlying preponderance of the built environment. This land use pattern, which cannot be changed due to the MASSIVE amount of NIMBY'ism which has been prevalent in California since before my father was born, has resulted in massive sprawl that can no longer grow outward any further.
Additionally, this land use form has been exacerbated by a transportation network which has prioritized the automobile (the interstate highway system forms the basis of CA's transportation network, and those highways can neither expand nor can be torn down). Based on the highway system, the artificial limit of housing unit density, and the artificial boundary limits of California's sprawl... there is nowhere to go (but up, and the NIMBYs aint having that). So not only can you not build more housing stock, but the amount of housing stock already there has a vastly less unit density than the population requires... in fact the number of housing units per capita is at an imbalance of almost 3 to 1 (statistics, not opinion). This has resulted in a not-so-shocking economic reality: statistically (this is not opinion), CA has some of the least lowest housing production per capita in the country. Oh, this also results in the nation's highest percentage of super commuters (coupled with strict emission laws specifically targeted at the auto industry-but not other industries like tech and agriculture, the cost of car ownership is higher in CA than 90% of the country)... which further cripples that COL problem faced in CA.
Then you have the totally backwards taxation policy which breeds NIMBY'ism. These include, but are not limited to a state income tax that mostly goes towards paying off massive ballooning debt of yester-decades, real estate fees (doc stamps, etc) which are not earmarked to affordable housing funding buckets, and Prop 13. Prop 13 alone can be directly attributed to a 40% undersupply of housing units based on simple regression analysis.
The rampant NIMBY'ism in California isn't changing zoning laws and taxation laws in order to return to a sense of free market reality in the state's housing 'market'. Comparing Florida to California is less a comparison of apples to oranges, and more of a comparison of apples to cartoons.
Florida has problems, but Florida doesn't have the fundamental and unchangeable, self-inflicted problems that California has. There is hope for Florida, if political will can be found to address the underlying issues. Florida's immediate affordability problem at the moment is the almost total collapse of the insurance market. Until the legislative body can address this issue... the other challenges are a distant second fiddle. Its the old proverb that you can't help others until you first get the splinter out of your own eye.
Since this thread is about Downtown vagrancy... this morning I offered to drive a homeless man (who was sleeping on my property) to Sulzbacher to get a meal and an ID. He refused a trip to Sulzbacher or City Rescue, got aggressive about wanting money, and went a block up the road to urinate on another building. When I told him it was time to move along (after he refused my offer to get him to the services he needed), he told me to call the cops on him (knowing that he'd move on before the police came, and knowing that JSO wouldn't cite him anyway).
In this sense, I fully agree with fsu813:
Quote from: fsu813 on March 05, 2023, 06:39:39 PM
There in lies the rub.
Most homeless people aren't problematic and are relatively invisible.
A smaller potion of homeless people are very visible and problematic.
So, there's a simple fix* for the invisible problem, no simple fix for the visible problem.
*simple in theory.
Field, I definitely can concur with everything you just said about CA's housing crisis. Prop 13 is a big issue in CA, *BIG*. (For those who don't know, it's sort of like rent control but with taxes...has some similar effects) NIMBYism as well. From my experience working in real estate there, the NIMBYism was actually more acute and pronounced in areas that begged for higher density, because of the "activists" that wanted everything to be 100% affordable and made insane demands. The Sierra Club came out against just about every new project in the city limits of SF, and so they just more sprawl instead in the East Bay. This is why I can not take these progressive organizations seriously at all. Hypocrisy abounds.
BUT
CA housing unaffordability is by no means the main culprit of its homelessness. Most of the "visible" homeless are drifters and basically came to CA homeless, or were bred in the rank defiled overall lax culture that CA has now become. CA offers them drugs and no enforcement for anything. They literally come there to live their lives that way. "Street kids" eventually become meth-addicted homeless adults. Meth in CA and the west coast costs $40-60 per gram. Meth can cost $300-500 per gram in the Northeast.
Similarly, if y'all recall during COVID when Jax was the first in FL to copy what they were doing in SF, LA and NYC in providing hotel rooms for the homeless on the street - the next week the homeless street population was immediately double what it was before from all of the homeless around the general area (SE GA, NE FL). I saw this for myself and then saw local news interviews of these people and where they came from. Word gets around, many have smart phones...this was totally predictable to me. The same thing happened in SF immediately after their hotel housing program.
Regarding "fixes" for visible versus invisible.
I am not ashamed to make another plug for Jesus/Christianity. Many of the "invisible" homeless (families, single moms, etc) end up receiving help from Christian church ministries. There are great fixes and faith-based programs out there. Many such people also actually seek help and eventually get on their feet, so that their homeless situation isn't permanent or a death sentence.
The challenge is the "visible" drug addled homeless problem and it's only a challenge because society has lost a moral backbone and feels "bad" about dealing with it. "It's not their fault..." "It's the housing affordability crisis..." Of course it's never their own bad decisions and it's not their fault, it's society's at large so we just need to let them use drugs and defecate in public and harass the rest of civilization around them, cause property damage, whatever.
Quote from: simms3 on March 06, 2023, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 03, 2023, 05:34:35 PM
Yes, the issue is getting worse. The main culprit is the housing crisis and vastly increasing rents. It's not only a Jax or Florida problem but it's especially acute here due to the high population growth and too little supply.
Quote from: simms3 on March 03, 2023, 05:02:37 PM
I've noticed the same. I keep thinking, did I accidentally bring some of the west coast demonic meth heads back with me and now they are multiplying? Five Points as well...it's like a little San Francisco these days. Lively and sometimes rowdy, but also ratchet, dirty and more than occasionally sketchy with a weird "dark" energy.
The only solution appropriate for them and for society is to force these people into a rehabilitation program and to separate them from hard drugs for a long period of time, with a jobs program coming out of it so they can work to get back on their feet. If none of this works, and a massive failure happens again, then extended jail time is actually healthy for both the suffering individual and the public at large. Allowing this to fester on the streets is both inhumane for those who made really wrong turns in their lives and are wreaking havoc on themselves, and for the public, that is also dealing with the actions and effects of these people.
Just going to throw that out there now because there is going to be a big "homeless advocacy" push (I'm already seeing signs of it here in Jax) to let these people live how they want and hopefully people with spines and a better moral compass can rise above those very misguided notions that have led to most of the western US's cities having a sizable zombie army in their urban cores and a "homeless industrial complex" to sustain it.
The West Coast has a worse homeless crisis because they have a worse housing crisis. It has nothing to do with "homeless advocacy", and it'll affect us soon enough. Considering the far lower incomes, Florida's housing unaffordability is already as bad as California's, and the problem isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
This is absolutely not true and a myth. I'm not saying there's *no* homeless people/families that were "priced out". BUT I lived in the Tenderloin in San Francisco for 2 years and got pretty acquainted with the world famous homeless population there, both from volunteering and from living. I also developed a drug problem myself out there - hard drugs. I nearly lived that life myself. All from my own choices. I lived within a half mile of 36 needle exchanges and the politics there absolutely encourages it. Nearly NONE of the homeless people there were from San Francisco and 100% of them were on hard drugs, often meth.
Additionally nearly 100% of all housing starts in SF for the past 5 years have been affordable housing and housing for "formerly homeless". The homelessness gets worse and worse no matter how many units are built. It's not a housing problem, but a spiritual problem. Many of the homeless on the street in SF actually had a home, as well, believe it or not.
Just giving a meth/fentanyl addict a home does not prevent said addict from being on the street and going insane (and in my opinion being possessed). I am a born again Christian, and took a HARD turn to the Lord. I was literally running around from my demons on the streets there and was helped by Catholic priests when I seeked that help, realizing the hard way that the devil is real and I needed the Lord to save me. I took 2 RCIA classes and became a convert, and I'm a dedicated practicing Catholic to this day, completely clean, homeowner, good job, productive contributing citizen rescued from the HELL that is San Francisco (and unfortunately so many big cities today). When a culture is rotten, it's easy to take a wrong turn and suffer hard consequences.
There is a massive drug problem impacting our country. There is total moral and cultural rot that is affecting our cities, and it's even more widespread than that now. There is a true spiritual battle out there. As more and more people have turned away from the Lord, look at the downward slope we are all on. There is a massive misguided moral dilemma that is absolutely increasing our homeless population.
When I talk to anyone above the age of 55 they recall a time in our cities when there simply weren't homeless people, but there was also better enforcement of "loitering laws" and other laws too that just held people to a higher standard. Lots more people went to church and put their faith and trust in the Lord. There's just too much evidence out there for this, but it is prophesied over and over in the Bible "although they claimed to be wise they became fools".
Having dealt with the epicenter of zombiism myself, I refuse to cave into these misguided principles that it's all people just priced out and they just can't work. I pass too many healthy looking men on medians around this city who CAN work but DON'T. That's not something I'm looking to solve by just giving my hard-worked tax dollars over to a home for them (which won't actually help them). They need fixing first, and it starts with fixing the addiction and the heart/soul.
Wait...you lived in San Francisco?
To play devil's advocate: I have family that lives in the Bay area so I have some experience there. I can't speak for the LA area. In the Bay area, I have noted lots of density at least on par with Jacksonville and maybe even greater in some spots. They have high rises and row houses in SF and small lots for homes that go for millions (equal to our homes here in the mid-hundreds of thousands 8) ) miles out in the suburbs.
What I do see is lots more land that is withheld from development due to steep terrain, wetlands, reservoirs, soil not conducive to build on if an earthquake happens, hillsides with a native oily vegetation that quickly feeds fires and may need to be preserved to prevent soil erosion and downhill flooding and a great appreciation for preserving large chunks of natural beauty in the landscape (not chopping down the redwoods anymore). If one ignores the human element, it is hard not to appreciate the overall beauty of most of the area. At some point, there may be more people wanting to live there than can be affordably sustained. When does an area become saturated within the bounds of maintaining a decent quality of life? Not everyone wants to live in high rises. Some parts of the world may be approaching (or have already exceeded) the limits of human occupation. Just sayin'....
By the way, I have seen "homeless" people in Silicon Valley that are software engineers who make well into 6 figures but still can't afford housing there so they live in their vehicles. If they can't find affordable housing, I have to wonder what hope there is for those less fortunate.
I might add that we should include our Beaches area when discussing this issue. When homes blocks from the ocean now regularly sell in the millions, where will affordable housing go there? In many ways, the Beaches are a city unto themselves more than ever. St. Johns County also seems to now be grappling with this issue. When hordes of people show up in short order, how can a community react fast enough to keep up? This seems to be an age old problem and solutions seem hard to come by.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 07, 2023, 08:37:08 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 07, 2023, 12:07:52 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on March 06, 2023, 09:45:00 PM
QuoteWe're already as unaffordable as California considering the much lower incomes.
With all due respect, Florida does not even play the same game as California.... much less be in California's league.
QuoteThey have done basically everything to create an affordable housing crisis
100% accurate.
Functionally, it's true. Most people here can't afford the median home price (to a similar percentage as in California), as even though the price is less than CA, wages are too. That's a problem that's only getting worse, especially as we're not doing much to avoid it.
California is dead last in both Cost of Living and Housing Affordability. Florida has a housing affordability problem (that's statistically much less than California, by whatever metric you use), that is largely driven by an undersupply of homes and rapidly increasing demand.
Florida also has the ability to alter this affordability problem... something California simply does not have the land supply (capacity) and functional ability (land use and taxation policies) to begin to unwind.
In the Bay Area and the LA Basin, you have large swaths of land that has no legal basis for development rights due to agricultural buffers, hillside easements, and various growth boundaries. You have a zoning code throughout CA that has massively favored single family homes... so while the major metro areas are dense from a building capacity, the density is severely underpopulated due to the overwhelming underlying preponderance of the built environment. This land use pattern, which cannot be changed due to the MASSIVE amount of NIMBY'ism which has been prevalent in California since before my father was born, has resulted in massive sprawl that can no longer grow outward any further.
Additionally, this land use form has been exacerbated by a transportation network which has prioritized the automobile (the interstate highway system forms the basis of CA's transportation network, and those highways can neither expand nor can be torn down). Based on the highway system, the artificial limit of housing unit density, and the artificial boundary limits of California's sprawl... there is nowhere to go (but up, and the NIMBYs aint having that). So not only can you not build more housing stock, but the amount of housing stock already there has a vastly less unit density than the population requires... in fact the number of housing units per capita is at an imbalance of almost 3 to 1 (statistics, not opinion). This has resulted in a not-so-shocking economic reality: statistically (this is not opinion), CA has some of the least lowest housing production per capita in the country. Oh, this also results in the nation's highest percentage of super commuters (coupled with strict emission laws specifically targeted at the auto industry-but not other industries like tech and agriculture, the cost of car ownership is higher in CA than 90% of the country)... which further cripples that COL problem faced in CA.
Then you have the totally backwards taxation policy which breeds NIMBY'ism. These include, but are not limited to a state income tax that mostly goes towards paying off massive ballooning debt of yester-decades, real estate fees (doc stamps, etc) which are not earmarked to affordable housing funding buckets, and Prop 13. Prop 13 alone can be directly attributed to a 40% undersupply of housing units based on simple regression analysis.
The rampant NIMBY'ism in California isn't changing zoning laws and taxation laws in order to return to a sense of free market reality in the state's housing 'market'. Comparing Florida to California is less a comparison of apples to oranges, and more of a comparison of apples to cartoons.
Florida has problems, but Florida doesn't have the fundamental and unchangeable, self-inflicted problems that California has. There is hope for Florida, if political will can be found to address the underlying issues. Florida's immediate affordability problem at the moment is the almost total collapse of the insurance market. Until the legislative body can address this issue... the other challenges are a distant second fiddle. Its the old proverb that you can't help others until you first get the splinter out of your own eye.
Since this thread is about Downtown vagrancy... this morning I offered to drive a homeless man (who was sleeping on my property) to Sulzbacher to get a meal and an ID. He refused a trip to Sulzbacher or City Rescue, got aggressive about wanting money, and went a block up the road to urinate on another building. When I told him it was time to move along (after he refused my offer to get him to the services he needed), he told me to call the cops on him (knowing that he'd move on before the police came, and knowing that JSO wouldn't cite him anyway).
In this sense, I fully agree with fsu813:
Quote from: fsu813 on March 05, 2023, 06:39:39 PM
There in lies the rub.
Most homeless people aren't problematic and are relatively invisible.
A smaller potion of homeless people are very visible and problematic.
So, there's a simple fix* for the invisible problem, no simple fix for the visible problem.
*simple in theory.
Definitely agree that Florida's problems aren't unfixable. But we've got some huge looming problems that aren't going away. To the above I'll add that our growth has been tied to the cost of living being affordable for a long time. That's gone now. And so far, there's no political will to fix even a problem as glaring as the homeowners insurance crisis, let alone tackling things like upzoning, re-funding the affordable housing trust, etc. That will have to change before anything gets done.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 07, 2023, 07:19:45 PM
To play devil's advocate: I have family that lives in the Bay area so I have some experience there. I can't speak for the LA area. In the Bay area, I have noted lots of density at least on par with Jacksonville and maybe even greater in some spots. They have high rises and row houses in SF and small lots for homes that go for millions (equal to our homes here in the mid-hundreds of thousands 8) ) miles out in the suburbs.
What I do see is lots more land that is withheld from development due to steep terrain, wetlands, reservoirs, soil not conducive to build on if an earthquake happens, hillsides with a native oily vegetation that quickly feeds fires and may need to be preserved to prevent soil erosion and downhill flooding and a great appreciation for preserving large chunks of natural beauty in the landscape (not chopping down the redwoods anymore). If one ignores the human element, it is hard not to appreciate the overall beauty of most of the area. At some point, there may be more people wanting to live there than can be affordably sustained. When does an area become saturated within the bounds of maintaining a decent quality of life? Not everyone wants to live in high rises. Some parts of the world may be approaching (or have already exceeded) the limits of human occupation. Just sayin'....
By the way, I have seen "homeless" people in Silicon Valley that are software engineers who make well into 6 figures but still can't afford housing there so they live in their vehicles. If they can't find affordable housing, I have to wonder what hope there is for those less fortunate.
I might add that we should include our Beaches area when discussing this issue. When homes blocks from the ocean now regularly sell in the millions, where will affordable housing go there? In many ways, the Beaches are a city unto themselves more than ever. St. Johns County also seems to now be grappling with this issue. When hordes of people show up in short order, how can a community react fast enough to keep up? This seems to be an age old problem and solutions seem hard to come by.
Re the Beaches, I had a discussion with my family about my parents' block in Neptune Beach. 40 years ago, there were homes for 22 families on 11 lots due to there being a mix of missing middle housing. Today, some of the duplexes have been converted to single-family and one garage apartment has been demolished, so now there's only room for 15 families even though there's been a new house added. Returning to more missing-middle options could increase capacity pretty easily.
The beaches are already lost. 35' height restriction says it all.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 07:13:49 AM
The beaches are already lost. 35' height restriction says it all.
Building condo towers along the coast is a complete blight to nature. Plus, it seems they are willing to make exceptions for revenue generating hotels. I think the height restriction is just fine.
In no way do I support building Miami condos in Jax beach. 35' is 3-stories. Good luck building up any inventory. Plenty of other beach towns have higher buildings. It will become an elite area very soon, if not already.
Quote from: JPalmer on March 08, 2023, 08:10:10 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 07:13:49 AM
The beaches are already lost. 35' height restriction says it all.
Building condo towers along the coast is a complete blight to nature. Plus, it seems they are willing to make exceptions for revenue generating hotels. I think the height restriction is just fine.
Your post says it all. Densifying the beaches doesn't have to mean a wall of skyscrapers between 1st street and the ocean, but that's the quick thoughtless jab that people love to throw out any time the height limit gets brought up. Midrise buildings clustered at Beach and 3rd street or on the west side of 3rd at certain blocks would help add housing without imposing towers blocking views of the ocean. The blanket 35' height limit is short sited and a knee jerk reaction to the problem, but for some reason people out there can only see things as all or nothing. There is a thoughtful and more strategic plan that would benefit all, but people are too closed minded to realize it.
Your quip about hotels is I'm guessing directed at the Springhill Suites or Margaritaville, which were on parcels that had an exemption to the height limit at the time it was imposed, so no exception was made for them.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 08, 2023, 09:26:46 AM
Quote from: JPalmer on March 08, 2023, 08:10:10 AM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 07:13:49 AM
The beaches are already lost. 35' height restriction says it all.
Building condo towers along the coast is a complete blight to nature. Plus, it seems they are willing to make exceptions for revenue generating hotels. I think the height restriction is just fine.
Your post says it all. Densifying the beaches doesn't have to mean a wall of skyscrapers between 1st street and the ocean, but that's the quick thoughtless jab that people love to throw out any time the height limit gets brought up. Midrise buildings clustered at Beach and 3rd street or on the west side of 3rd at certain blocks would help add housing without imposing towers blocking views of the ocean. The blanket 35' height limit is short sited and a knee jerk reaction to the problem, but for some reason people out there can only see things as all or nothing. There is a thoughtful and more strategic plan that would benefit all, but people are too closed minded to realize it.
Your quip about hotels is I'm guessing directed at the Springhill Suites or Margaritaville, which were on parcels that had an exemption to the height limit at the time it was imposed, so no exception was made for them.
Agree with Captain and Jax Developer. There's a lot of distance between "3-story building/2-story building with a pitched roof" and "Miami-style skyscrapers so tall they blot out the sun".
Homeowners in areas always think that limiting supply will jack up the value of their own properties. They don't come out and say it, instead saying how they are being "altruistic" in some way (preserving nature, reducing blight, etc), but this is often any reasonable homeowners' goal.
Instead they hinder development to the point where certain areas aren't even close to realizing their full potential, and thus they miss out on even further increasing homeowner values. If King St in Avondale could be developed, it would be even better for Riverside-Avondale property values. For some reason homeowners don't see it that way.
Jacksonville has what I would certainly call a CA level of NIMBYism that you just don't find in most other markets. It is widely accepted mentality and practice. From the historic district overlays and the non-profits that promote them to the insane 35' height limit at all of the area beaches from Nassau County down to St. Johns, to Mandarin residents fighting virtually every new home built to Neptune Beach residents fighting to keep a vacant KMart instead of receiving a 3-story mixed use project that would have extended the Beaches Town Center. St Johns County social media groups that are riling up the residents there (plus the new commissioners that ran and won on anti-growth policy). Clay County the same. Nassau County the same...on the island they are the worst. Baker County will literally have your family assassinated if you are trying to come in with development of anything smaller than 1 acre lots.
It's now a national issue, but for a long time has been a big issue in NE FL and it's only so much worse now.
At the same time, having a drug-addicted visible homeless population will only add fuel to the NIMBY fire (and all the people in the medians). People see that kind of activity and they associate it with higher density and "urbanity" and "sprawl" and they run for the woods.
It was a rush of condo towers going up on 1st Street in the 00's that led to the ordinance in the first place. The ordinance could certainly be re-worked to accommodate some of y'all's valid points, but I still wouldn't trust that unimpeded developers wouldn't line 1st Street with a bunch of High-Rises.
Timely article on St. John's County dealing with the homeless issue. Short term, sheriff wants to build a camp for them until a more permanent solution is built.
QuotePossible homeless solution in St. Augustine: Establish a homeless camp
....years of enforcement have shown local leaders that arrests and citations are temporary fixes for a persistent problem: lack of proper shelter for the area's most challenged residents, a situation that has led to multiple incidents with homeless people that have caused serious concerns among other residents, business owners and community leaders.
In an effort to find a more comprehensive solution, St. Johns County Sheriff Rob Hardwick has suggested setting up a homeless camp to give those without shelter a place to go other than the public streets....
.....While hundreds of those without a permanent address go through the county jail each year, Hardwick said sporadic arrests don't solve the problem.
For one thing, he said it costs $131 per day to house a healthy inmate. Those with illnesses require more resources.
Also, a cycle of going in and out of jail isn't helping a person get off the streets for good.
"We cannot afford as a community to continue this," Hardwick said. "We can't arrest our way out of this."
Hardwick has already devoted resources to solving the homeless problem's root causes, including establishing a re-entry team to help county jail inmates get basic essentials and skills to get back into the workforce.
"The majority of the people in my jail just made a mistake in life and need someone to give them a chance to get back on their feet and not shutting the door," Hardwick said.
One of the simplest and most effective tools the Sheriff's Office supplies is assistance in helping inmates obtain a driver's license or state identification card, one of which is required to obtain employment.
That's important because the jail houses just minor offenders and those awaiting trial. Serious offenses that carry more than a year of incarceration are transferred to a state prison.....
....But none of those things will be a permanent fix without some kind of shelter.
Regan said the city came up with a price tag of about $5 million to build a facility and $2 million to run it. And it would take two years to build.
That's why he supports Hardwick's plan of a camp-like facility, where the investment would be minimal. And he said it could be shut down after six months or so if the setup doesn't work....
....He added that any kind of homeless compound would have a law enforcement presence 24 hours per day and that residents there would not be subject to any more or less legal scrutiny.....
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2023/03/08/possible-homeless-solution-in-st-augustine.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=me&utm_content=JA&ana=e_JA_me&j=30768573&senddate=2023-03-08
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 08:30:51 AM
In no way do I support building Miami condos in Jax beach. 35' is 3-stories. Good luck building up any inventory. Plenty of other beach towns have higher buildings. It will become an elite area very soon, if not already.
Have you ever actually been to Miami Beach? There aren't that many towers and the ones that are there don't block the coast at all. Also, do you actually think there's any demand for giant condo towers in Jax Beach? There's empty lots all over...
Jax Beach (and Jacksonville in general) could actually learn a lot from Miami Beach. The Boardwalk, Lincoln Road, and Lummus Park are all incredible, just to name a few things.
Quote from: iMarvin on March 08, 2023, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 08:30:51 AM
In no way do I support building Miami condos in Jax beach. 35' is 3-stories. Good luck building up any inventory. Plenty of other beach towns have higher buildings. It will become an elite area very soon, if not already.
Have you ever actually been to Miami Beach? There aren't that many towers and the ones that are there don't block the coast at all. Also, do you actually think there's any demand for giant condo towers in Jax Beach? There's empty lots all over...
Jax Beach (and Jacksonville in general) could actually learn a lot from Miami Beach. The Boardwalk, Lincoln Road, and Lummus Park are all incredible, just to name a few things.
Have you? Ever heard of Sunny Isles Beach? Miami Beach, to be uber uber specific, has several 30+ story buildings. There are several historic districts if that's what you are referencing? Not sure we are going to the same Miami beach.
Would there be demand? Heard of the Azure on JAX Beach? I think there would be considering they are UC for $1,000psf+... What do I know though. They also literally enacted legislation against this or you'd see several condo projects east of A1A.
For all you environmentalist, building up reduces the impact on wetlands, storm drainage congestion, and cutting down more trees. Please also consider that a 5-story building is not even close to a hi-rise. There is a large jump from 3-story homes & light commercial to "Miami condo towers."
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 11:05:44 PM
Have you? Ever heard of Sunny Isles Beach? Miami Beach, to be uber uber specific, has several 30+ story buildings. There are several historic districts if that's what you are referencing? Not sure we are going to the same Miami beach.
There are 34 cities in Miami-Dade County, so it depends on how accurate each poster is being. Sunny Isles Beach is a separate city altogether than Miami Beach. There are actually two cities, Bay Harbor Islands and Surfside, between them.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: iMarvin on March 08, 2023, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 08:30:51 AM
In no way do I support building Miami condos in Jax beach. 35' is 3-stories. Good luck building up any inventory. Plenty of other beach towns have higher buildings. It will become an elite area very soon, if not already.
Have you ever actually been to Miami Beach? There aren't that many towers and the ones that are there don't block the coast at all. Also, do you actually think there's any demand for giant condo towers in Jax Beach? There's empty lots all over...
Jax Beach (and Jacksonville in general) could actually learn a lot from Miami Beach. The Boardwalk, Lincoln Road, and Lummus Park are all incredible, just to name a few things.
Have you? Ever heard of Sunny Isles Beach? Miami Beach, to be uber uber specific, has several 30+ story buildings. There are several historic districts if that's what you are referencing? Not sure we are going to the same Miami beach.
Would there be demand? Heard of the Azure on JAX Beach? I think there would be considering they are UC for $1,000psf+... What do I know though. They also literally enacted legislation against this or you'd see several condo projects east of A1A.
For all you environmentalist, building up reduces the impact on wetlands, storm drainage congestion, and cutting down more trees. Please also consider that a 5-story building is not even close to a hi-rise. There is a large jump from 3-story homes & light commercial to "Miami condo towers."
Okay, Sunny Isles is a different story and I'd agree we should avoid building like that.
Miami Beach on the other hand imo has done a great job of allowing taller buildings while keeping the coast open. That should be possible in Jax Beach too. Something like the South of Fifth neighborhood developing around Beach & 3rd would be a major improvement to what's there now imo.
Point taken with Azure but there would be need to be a lot more developments like that before someone wants to build a true "Miami condo tower" in Jax Beach... which should absolutely be allowed, just not right on the coast.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2023, 11:25:50 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 11:05:44 PM
Have you? Ever heard of Sunny Isles Beach? Miami Beach, to be uber uber specific, has several 30+ story buildings. There are several historic districts if that's what you are referencing? Not sure we are going to the same Miami beach.
There are 34 cities in Miami-Dade County, so it depends on how accurate each poster is being. Sunny Isles Beach is a separate city altogether than Miami Beach. There are actually two cities, Bay Harbor Islands and Surfside, between them.
Yes of course. My point in bringing that area up is due to the several 40+ story towers there. In fact it is number 1 for beach cities for tallest buildings, rivaling some of the tallest buildings in MIA proper. Miami Beach has prevented that outcome due to half the island being federally registered as historic. Essentially no other beach city has that in FL. Miami Beach also has a significant NIMBY movement.
The thread was about the lack of attention given to several factors around homelessness.
My point is focused on responding to the criticism against building more dense at the beach, because as another OP has mentioned everyone thinks their sliver of NEFL is the 'best' and shouldn't be touched. I completely agree with OP on that. Someone has to give and that attitude is very CA. Currently JAX has three markets that really make sense to build up. Brooklyn, San Marco (Southbank), and the beaches.
I absolutely guarantee you that a $1000 psf sale price would warrant buildings 20+ stories as far as economics is concerned. I'm not a fan of that idea though myself.
Another reminder, almost ALL (nearing 95%) of the zoning at the beaches is for 1-4 unit properties. Almost 0 for-rent multi product exists. There is very little vacant land that is not wet or prone to flooding. You will never see rents go down at the beaches if this trend continues. Then that will trickle to San Pablo, and there you have overflowed the issue to JAX proper.
Ditto this story for Saint Johns county. The entire south and east border of JAX east of the river is completely NIMBY. That should help drive prices down. (/s)
But seriously, how do you address the issues DT when there are so many anti development movements scattered across town.. I couldn't image the response if COJ actually tried to build a place to remediate folks anywhere outside of DT or another higher crime area. That doesn't really help much.
I don't know if I'd call Miami Beach NIMBYs. Being a preservationist and designing a built environment to respect sense of place and character doesn't automatically equate to NIMBYism. Miami Beach still has higher density construction taking place that Jax can only dream about. There's just a bit more thought and intention into how those projects are integrated into that built environment. Locally, our issue is that there is no market for high-rise development in this low density town. There certainly places for it, when and if the market gets to a point where it can sufficiently support that style of development. But make no doubt about it, we're small potatoes when comparing the market of South Florida, Tampa and Orlando as apples to apples. We fell off that wagon back in the 1980s and 90s and have yet to recover. NIMBYs are the least of our urban development issues. We have a lot of infilling and growth to do before the numbers start making sense holistically. Vangrancy is definitely a problem that's growing though. However, I'm skeptical that it impacts downtown development here anymore than it does in peer communities.
^^^I don't think vagrancy impacts downtown development. The people doing downtown development and the people who want to live downtown are going to do so regardless and many have also been elsewhere where vagrancy is so much worse. Young renters in particular who want to experience the excitement of being in an urban setting are willing to put up with so much more, and it may even add to "the thrill" they seek.
But I do think downtown vagrancy and the medians around town playing host to so many homeless now has an impact on infill in other neighborhoods (namely apartments, townhomes, anything less than quarter acre single-family lots). People associate that aspect with urban sprawl and density and "city issues" creeping in to their communities.
If we could get a handle on it, clean up the city a bit, then I think it would only help the cause of infilling Jax.
Vagrancy absolutely affects downtown development. It held back Columbia, SC for many years. Greenville's lack of vagrancy allowed it to rise above its peer cities in DT revitalization. It certainly wasn't the only factor in either city, but it played a part.
Every time something is proposed DT, the article comments at the T-U website invariably say things like 'why would anybody invest in DT with so many homeless and so much crime'.
It's hard to argue that development doesn't impact vagrancy. Downtown development is a small piece of the larger pie. The entire area is an eco system. Make it harder or undesirable to live near downtown and you bet downtown will suffer. That's why the 'real' urban planning folks are so interested in improving the baseline in Arlington, Springfield & Spring Park.
I think the larger argument here which I have seen over & over again is the idea that comparing us to south FL is bad & unrealistic idea. It's only unrealistic because it is made to be that way. Plenty of us have a vision for JAX but what many of us don't understand is that now is the time. JAX is all over the news in a positive light. You either take the absolute boom and capitalize on it or you do what we are doing right now and sit & talk about an ideal. I bet most of those homeless folks were displaced by the massive population boom we have had.
Nothing is ideal in real estate. You will always find someone upset at what's been done. And sorry to say but any large scale project in JAX is designed and sometimes built by South Florida and Atlanta based firms. Makes no difference to them where the project is located. It makes a huge difference when you realize what & how they are being constrained to build. Jax need to catch up to 21st century planning practices. Cough cough 2045 comprehensive plan.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2023, 10:50:37 AM
I don't know if I'd call Miami Beach NIMBYs. Being a preservationist and designing a built environment to respect sense of place and character doesn't automatically equate to NIMBYism. Miami Beach still has higher density construction taking place that Jax can only dream about. There's just a bit more thought and intention into how those projects are integrated into that built environment. Locally, our issue is that there is no market for high-rise development in this low density town. There certainly places for it, when and if the market gets to a point where it can sufficiently support that style of development. But make no doubt about it, we're small potatoes when comparing the market of South Florida, Tampa and Orlando as apples to apples. We fell off that wagon back in the 1980s and 90s and have yet to recover. NIMBYs are the least of our urban development issues. We have a lot of infilling and growth to do before the numbers start making sense holistically. Vangrancy is definitely a problem that's growing though. However, I'm skeptical that it impacts downtown development here anymore than it does in peer communities.
I know several plp who would laugh at the idea that Miami Beach isn't Nimby. There are a few very well connected firms/plp that do most of the development there. Not necessarily CA nimby, but its a version of it. Ask anyone who has tried building there.
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 09, 2023, 02:50:35 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2023, 10:50:37 AM
I don't know if I'd call Miami Beach NIMBYs. Being a preservationist and designing a built environment to respect sense of place and character doesn't automatically equate to NIMBYism. Miami Beach still has higher density construction taking place that Jax can only dream about. There's just a bit more thought and intention into how those projects are integrated into that built environment. Locally, our issue is that there is no market for high-rise development in this low density town. There certainly places for it, when and if the market gets to a point where it can sufficiently support that style of development. But make no doubt about it, we're small potatoes when comparing the market of South Florida, Tampa and Orlando as apples to apples. We fell off that wagon back in the 1980s and 90s and have yet to recover. NIMBYs are the least of our urban development issues. We have a lot of infilling and growth to do before the numbers start making sense holistically. Vangrancy is definitely a problem that's growing though. However, I'm skeptical that it impacts downtown development here anymore than it does in peer communities.
I know several plp who would laugh at the idea that Miami Beach isn't Nimby. There are a few very well connected firms/plp that do most of the development there. Not necessarily CA nimby, but its a version of it. Ask anyone who has tried building there.
I think the difference is that in California, the system structurally encourages NIMBYs. Decisions are made on the hyperlocal level and it's easy for a few dedicated advocates to do things like stop developments, maintain onerous zoning laws, railroad local governments trying to build affordable housing (which state law requires them to do). It's essentially twisting home rule into creating a housing crisis. This is why the state is now having to come in and not only pass statewide requirements for zoning and affordable housing, but enforcing them.
In Florida it's not as much of a structural problem. For better for worse, it's harder for a few people to turn back development when they're approved or within the proper zoning. Even something like the bill legalizing ADUs was easier in a city like Jacksonville than anywhere in California. This comes with its own risks of course.
Of course you do see NIMBYs in Florida as you do everywhere, and in some cases they do exert a lot of power. The Jax Beaches are one area where that's the case. They've turned the reasonable goal of not having massive skyscrapers into not having anything bigger than a three-story house. In one case in Neptune Beach, NIMBYs successfully fought off a development that would have turned the obsolete K-mart into a mixed-use walkable housing development. The zoning also discourages further missing-middle housing and encourages buildings that do have it to get rid of it. And lo and behold, housing costs at the Beach are higher than pretty much anywhere else in town.
Unsurprisingly, I'm with Ennis that stopping certain types of developments and putting in reasonable restrictions isn't a bad thing. At the Beaches specifically, historic preservation and smart planning would have preserved and expanded a lot of the missing-middle housing that's now being destroyed. It would also have added a lot more character than the generic single-family subdivisions and strip malls that have taken over. The plus side is there are plenty more areas of Jacksonville where those things can work.
QuoteTimely article on St. John's County dealing with the homeless issue. Short term, sheriff wants to build a camp for them until a more permanent solution is built.
Quote
An encampment to create a concentration of the homeless population? Where have I heard this before....
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 11:05:44 PM
Quote from: iMarvin on March 08, 2023, 08:56:37 PM
Quote from: Jax_Developer on March 08, 2023, 08:30:51 AM
In no way do I support building Miami condos in Jax beach. 35' is 3-stories. Good luck building up any inventory. Plenty of other beach towns have higher buildings. It will become an elite area very soon, if not already.
Have you ever actually been to Miami Beach? There aren't that many towers and the ones that are there don't block the coast at all. Also, do you actually think there's any demand for giant condo towers in Jax Beach? There's empty lots all over...
Jax Beach (and Jacksonville in general) could actually learn a lot from Miami Beach. The Boardwalk, Lincoln Road, and Lummus Park are all incredible, just to name a few things.
Have you? Ever heard of Sunny Isles Beach? Miami Beach, to be uber uber specific, has several 30+ story buildings. There are several historic districts if that's what you are referencing? Not sure we are going to the same Miami beach.
Would there be demand? Heard of the Azure on JAX Beach? I think there would be considering they are UC for $1,000psf+... What do I know though. They also literally enacted legislation against this or you'd see several condo projects east of A1A.
For all you environmentalist, building up reduces the impact on wetlands, storm drainage congestion, and cutting down more trees. Please also consider that a 5-story building is not even close to a hi-rise. There is a large jump from 3-story homes & light commercial to "Miami condo towers."
Speaking of Sunny Isles....
QuoteA look inside a $22.5 million Miami condo with insane luxury amenities
....The beachfront neighborhood only spans about 1.8 square miles — for that size there's a remarkable 16 high-end condominium residences vying for buyers with units priced north of $10 million....
...."The skyline of Sunny Isles Beach features some of the most exciting towers in all of Miami, and it has become a destination where developers can experiment with architecture, branded concepts and amenities," said Dezer.....
....."Sunny Isles Beach sometimes feels like Dubai meets Vegas on the ocean — in only the best ways," Adzem told CNBC.
According to public records, the neighborhood's top recent sales included a $27 million deal at the Estates at Aqualina in 2021, which combined two penthouse units at just over $3,100 a square foot, and a $23.5 million penthouse that traded last year at Jade Signature for about $1,840 a square foot.
The three most expensive listings currently on the market are all also at the Estates at Aqualina: the highest priced is an $85 million residence that spans 15,000 square feet across four stories and delivers seven bedrooms and nine and half baths, according to the Multiple Listing Service....
(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107204843-1678251832170-Sky_Club.jpg?v=1678389592&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y)
(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107205159-1678292936977-Turnberry_drone_shot_.jpeg?v=1678389592&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y)
(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107205875-1678375642487-porsche_design_tower.jpg?v=1678389592&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y)
....Dezer has planned a similar automobile elevator for his yet-to-be-built, 63-story Bentley Residences where each home will have multi-unit in-sky parking as well as its own pool.
The project is being marketed as the tallest beachfront residential tower in America. Among the planned amenities is a fine-dining restaurant, whiskey bar, spa, gym and landscaped gardens....
(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107205436-1678311348688-Dezer_BentleyResidences_Hero_012522.jpg?v=1678389592&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y)
(https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/107205874-1678375642489-armani_casa_sunny_isles.jpg?v=1678389592&w=740&h=416&ffmt=webp&vtcrop=y)
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/09/miami-condo-insane-luxury-amenities.html?&qsearchterm=sunny%20condo
I was born in Miami Beach.
Childhood neighborhood was Miami Beach and North Miami.
Governor DeSantis Promotes Florida as America Ideal.
Skip it.
I miss the Miami I once knew. The thought of Returning There is as caustic as going to the Orange Park Mall.
Goodbye Jacksonville Downtown " Vibrancy" .
Thirty years here , so hopeful for Downtown....and...... Moving Out.
All you can post here about Miami is Phallic Concrete Structure Thrusting to the Sky. Screw the tree line..... Light.
" Metro" Jacksonville outlook .
We get the Places we Deserve.