Quote(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/HBCU-River-Cruise/i-BwhrXfZ/0/9c60a3a3/L/20220922_192518-L.jpg)
How well do you know Downtown Jacksonville? Here's a list of the 10 largest non-residential buildings in downtown by gross area. Some may surprise you.
Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/downtown-jacksonvilles-ten-largest-office-buildings/
If I counted right, 7 of the 10 were designed by KBJ. They've had quite an impact on the Jacksonville skyline.
I wonder how occupied each of these buildings are.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 17, 2022, 01:09:25 PM
I wonder how occupied each of these buildings are.
Not very
Florida Blue- roughly 60% occupancy
Riverplace Tower and Eight Forty One on the Southbank are both more than 80% occupied, and except for the Fidelity-related buildings.. are some of the most actively full buildings DT (the BofA building for example has a lot of professional services-type offices so the employment density isn't particularly high per floor).
701 San Marco- roughly 60% occupancy
TIAA Bank Center - roughly 75% occupancy, but that is very skewed as most of the residential lending business/employees on the TIAA floors are empty as they exited that business; and Citizens has a fair amount of their employees working from home either full time or part-time. There are also quite a few spaces that are paying rent, which are currently trying to find subleases (meaning the space is not being used).
The Truist Building and One Enterprise Buildings have about a 60% and 40% occupancy rate, respectively.
Since Morgan and Morgan moved out of the Vystar Tower. and into the Harden/Gallagher Building in Brooklyn.. the campus is pretty empty on Mondays and Fridays as most employees are remote those days.
Quote from: fieldafm on October 17, 2022, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 17, 2022, 01:09:25 PM
I wonder how occupied each of these buildings are.
Not very
Florida Blue- roughly 60% occupancy
Riverplace Tower and Eight Forty One on the Southbank are both more than 80% occupied, and except for the Fidelity-related buildings.. are some of the most actively full buildings DT (the BofA building for example has a lot of professional services-type offices so the employment density isn't particularly high per floor).
701 San Marco- roughly 60% occupancy
TIAA Bank Center - roughly 75% occupancy, but that is very skewed as most of the residential lending business/employees on the TIAA floors are empty as they exited that business; and Citizens has a fair amount of their employees working from home either full time or part-time. There are also quite a few spaces that are paying rent, which are currently trying to find subleases (meaning the space is not being used).
The Truist Building and One Enterprise Buildings have about a 60% and 40% occupancy rate, respectively.
Since Morgan and Morgan moved out of the Vystar Tower. and into the Harden/Gallagher Building in Brooklyn.. the campus is pretty empty on Mondays and Fridays as most employees are remote those days.
Depressing. You always want to see healthy occupancy rates in cities the size of Jacksonville and in buildings of these caliber. Anyone know whether this is the norm in most all large cities and mid-sized cities or just in Jacksonville (in which I believe its been this way for decades and even worse in Jacksonville in the past).
Quote from: heights unknown on October 18, 2022, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 17, 2022, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 17, 2022, 01:09:25 PM
I wonder how occupied each of these buildings are.
Not very
Florida Blue- roughly 60% occupancy
Riverplace Tower and Eight Forty One on the Southbank are both more than 80% occupied, and except for the Fidelity-related buildings.. are some of the most actively full buildings DT (the BofA building for example has a lot of professional services-type offices so the employment density isn't particularly high per floor).
701 San Marco- roughly 60% occupancy
TIAA Bank Center - roughly 75% occupancy, but that is very skewed as most of the residential lending business/employees on the TIAA floors are empty as they exited that business; and Citizens has a fair amount of their employees working from home either full time or part-time. There are also quite a few spaces that are paying rent, which are currently trying to find subleases (meaning the space is not being used).
The Truist Building and One Enterprise Buildings have about a 60% and 40% occupancy rate, respectively.
Since Morgan and Morgan moved out of the Vystar Tower. and into the Harden/Gallagher Building in Brooklyn.. the campus is pretty empty on Mondays and Fridays as most employees are remote those days.
Depressing. You always want to see healthy occupancy rates in cities the size of Jacksonville and in buildings of these caliber. Anyone know whether this is the norm in most all large cities and mid-sized cities or just in Jacksonville (in which I believe its been this way for decades and even worse in Jacksonville in the past).
Daytime populations are down throughout CBDs everywhere. Its why clustering, placemaking, etc is so important. When Downtowns are nothing more than vertical office suburbs that shuffle workers in and out without creating an environment that entices them to leave their office tower during the workday or hang out once the workday is over... then, this is what happens. Having more residential and hotels clustered together in a compact and contextually-sensitive setting; having a cluster of complementary uses like bars, restaurants, public spaces, retail,etc in a pleasant walkable setting; and the like... all serve to diversify against swings in office daytime populations.
Hotel occupancy is actually pretty good throughout the larger imagined 'downtown' border... but hotel guests don't really leave with a positive impression as they find nothing to do or walk to.
Quote from: heights unknown on October 18, 2022, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 17, 2022, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 17, 2022, 01:09:25 PM
I wonder how occupied each of these buildings are.
Not very
Florida Blue- roughly 60% occupancy
Riverplace Tower and Eight Forty One on the Southbank are both more than 80% occupied, and except for the Fidelity-related buildings.. are some of the most actively full buildings DT (the BofA building for example has a lot of professional services-type offices so the employment density isn't particularly high per floor).
701 San Marco- roughly 60% occupancy
TIAA Bank Center - roughly 75% occupancy, but that is very skewed as most of the residential lending business/employees on the TIAA floors are empty as they exited that business; and Citizens has a fair amount of their employees working from home either full time or part-time. There are also quite a few spaces that are paying rent, which are currently trying to find subleases (meaning the space is not being used).
The Truist Building and One Enterprise Buildings have about a 60% and 40% occupancy rate, respectively.
Since Morgan and Morgan moved out of the Vystar Tower. and into the Harden/Gallagher Building in Brooklyn.. the campus is pretty empty on Mondays and Fridays as most employees are remote those days.
Depressing. You always want to see healthy occupancy rates in cities the size of Jacksonville and in buildings of these caliber. Anyone know whether this is the norm in most all large cities and mid-sized cities or just in Jacksonville (in which I believe its been this way for decades and even worse in Jacksonville in the past).
The downtown office market also has never really recovered from the insurance and banking mergers of the 1980s, 90s and early 00s. We have quite a few buildings built to serve as the corporate headquarters of companies like Barnett Bank, Independent Life, Gulf Life, American Heritage Life, etc. that don't exist anymore. All those jobs are in places like Uptown Charlotte and Downtown Houston now. One of our challenges we'll likely face moving forward is how to fill these large empty buildings with uses other than traditional office space.
A few comments to add to the discussion:
1. KBJ has designed the most iconic buildings on our skyline. But, as I review their website, I don't see similar examples of skyline impacts in other cities. I am wondering why, with their capabilities and experience, that is? Maybe they have them and they aren't posted but given how may Jax buildings they show I would think they would do the same for elsewhere if they had such examples.
2. By my count, of the 10 buildings listed, only 3.5 (CSX, Florida Blue, the Courthouse and half of 701 San Marco for Prudential) have their original tenants.
3. In other cities, some office towers have been converted into hotels, apartments or condos. Is that coming our way at some point. Would that be a repurposing wave like we are seeing with the conversion of indoor shopping malls to other uses?
4. Not mentioned by Field but likely close to empty is JEA's former HQ's, the Universal Marion Building. With all the vacancies, who would fill any office buildings proposed for the formerly named District project on the Southbank. Also, are we seeing similar vacancy rates in suburban office buildings?
5. If the Lot J project had gone forward, who would have a need for the office space proposed there? Who will fill the office building Khan plans to build next to the Four Seasons? Just Khan's companies? Will that be enough? Khan probably happy today the City nixed his Lot J complex as it would likely never have worked out, post COVID, as originally envisioned.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 18, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
1. KBJ has designed the most iconic buildings on our skyline. But, as I review their website, I don't see similar examples of skyline impacts in other cities. I am wondering why, with their capabilities and experience, that is? Maybe they have them and they aren't posted but given how may Jax buildings they show I would think they would do the same for elsewhere if they had such examples.
One thing of note - if you look at KBJ's buildings, they may be visually appealing from a distance they aren't great at ground level:
- Two Prudential Plaza looks like a bunker on most of its sides.
- CSX, One Prudential Plaza, and Gulf Life are set back significantly from the street.
- Independent Life has the weird, "double sidewalk" thing that really disconnects it from the street.
- Southern Bell was designed to open in
- Don't get me started on the Courthouse
Not a great body of work if you focus on the ground level and what makes a city work. That said, we weren't the only city to make these mistakes in that era.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 18, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
3. In other cities, some office towers have been converted into hotels, apartments or condos. Is that coming our way at some point. Would that be a repurposing wave like we are seeing with the conversion of indoor shopping malls to other uses?
I think this will depend on the floor plates. For example, one feature larger companies consider is a decent size floor plate (a positive to Southern Bell or Independent Life for example). At one point a company based here looked at the Enterprise Center as its headquarters. The issue there was they'd need 15 floors. While cool in that it would give them naming rights, it would split some individual departments into multiple floors, which was considered a detractor. That's a positive of some modern office buildings. However, converting to Hotel or Residential use is tough as window access isn't great. Compare that to the Barnett HQ that was built in 1927 in a U shape. While complicated due to its age of course, the floor plates make it a lot easier. You can thank the lack of A/C in the 1927 building for that as L and U shapes made air move a bit more.
For those of you working downtown regularly, where would you put the 9-5 foot traffic now compared to pre-pandemic?
Feels like maybe 65% to me.
Quote from: fieldafm on October 18, 2022, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: heights unknown on October 18, 2022, 09:28:00 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 17, 2022, 03:46:23 PM
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 17, 2022, 01:09:25 PM
I wonder how occupied each of these buildings are.
Not very
Florida Blue- roughly 60% occupancy
Riverplace Tower and Eight Forty One on the Southbank are both more than 80% occupied, and except for the Fidelity-related buildings.. are some of the most actively full buildings DT (the BofA building for example has a lot of professional services-type offices so the employment density isn't particularly high per floor).
701 San Marco- roughly 60% occupancy
TIAA Bank Center - roughly 75% occupancy, but that is very skewed as most of the residential lending business/employees on the TIAA floors are empty as they exited that business; and Citizens has a fair amount of their employees working from home either full time or part-time. There are also quite a few spaces that are paying rent, which are currently trying to find subleases (meaning the space is not being used).
The Truist Building and One Enterprise Buildings have about a 60% and 40% occupancy rate, respectively.
Since Morgan and Morgan moved out of the Vystar Tower. and into the Harden/Gallagher Building in Brooklyn.. the campus is pretty empty on Mondays and Fridays as most employees are remote those days.
Depressing. You always want to see healthy occupancy rates in cities the size of Jacksonville and in buildings of these caliber. Anyone know whether this is the norm in most all large cities and mid-sized cities or just in Jacksonville (in which I believe its been this way for decades and even worse in Jacksonville in the past).
Daytime populations are down throughout CBDs everywhere. Its why clustering, placemaking, etc is so important. When Downtowns are nothing more than vertical office suburbs that shuffle workers in and out without creating an environment that entices them to leave their office tower during the workday or hang out once the workday is over... then, this is what happens. Having more residential and hotels clustered together in a compact and contextually-sensitive setting; having a cluster of complementary uses like bars, restaurants, public spaces, retail,etc in a pleasant walkable setting; and the like... all serve to diversify against swings in office daytime populations.
Hotel occupancy is actually pretty good throughout the larger imagined 'downtown' border... but hotel guests don't really leave with a positive impression as they find nothing to do or walk to.
Thanks "Field." I always knew that, and mentioned it a time or 2 in the forum. It seems we're TRYING to go or head in the right direction; but it seems that Jax' organizational skills and prioritizational acumen is poor to nil to say the least. If we don't get nuked, or EMP'd, I think we will get there late in this decade or the next; sadly, I will probably be pushing up daisies, roses, and petunias when it happens.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 18, 2022, 02:35:25 PM
For those of you working downtown regularly, where would you put the 9-5 foot traffic now compared to pre-pandemic?
Feels like maybe 65% to me.
You're generous. Every day feels like a pre-covid national holiday. Now my perspective is warped, as my office overlooks the Landing site. Coastal Cookies alone, generated as much foot traffic as what I see at the intersection of Independent and Laura today. Hopefully, we've already bottomed out and are now in a Northbank comeback.
Quote from: Steve on October 18, 2022, 12:17:01 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 18, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
1. KBJ has designed the most iconic buildings on our skyline. But, as I review their website, I don't see similar examples of skyline impacts in other cities. I am wondering why, with their capabilities and experience, that is? Maybe they have them and they aren't posted but given how may Jax buildings they show I would think they would do the same for elsewhere if they had such examples.
One thing of note - if you look at KBJ's buildings, they may be visually appealing from a distance they aren't great at ground level:
- Two Prudential Plaza looks like a bunker on most of its sides.
- CSX, One Prudential Plaza, and Gulf Life are set back significantly from the street.
- Independent Life has the weird, "double sidewalk" thing that really disconnects it from the street.
- Southern Bell was designed to open in
- Don't get me started on the Courthouse
Not a great body of work if you focus on the ground level and what makes a city work. That said, we weren't the only city to make these mistakes in that era.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 18, 2022, 12:00:29 PM
3. In other cities, some office towers have been converted into hotels, apartments or condos. Is that coming our way at some point. Would that be a repurposing wave like we are seeing with the conversion of indoor shopping malls to other uses?
I think this will depend on the floor plates. For example, one feature larger companies consider is a decent size floor plate (a positive to Southern Bell or Independent Life for example). At one point a company based here looked at the Enterprise Center as its headquarters. The issue there was they'd need 15 floors. While cool in that it would give them naming rights, it would split some individual departments into multiple floors, which was considered a detractor. That's a positive of some modern office buildings. However, converting to Hotel or Residential use is tough as window access isn't great. Compare that to the Barnett HQ that was built in 1927 in a U shape. While complicated due to its age of course, the floor plates make it a lot easier. You can thank the lack of A/C in the 1927 building for that as L and U shapes made air move a bit more.
Steve, observations noted. As to KBJ's buildings, I would guess their designs reflected, in part, the wishes of their clients and/or influence by City planners at the time so maybe there is some "blame" to go around.
The Wells Fargo building, originally Independent Life, may have the dual sidewalk arrangement to accommodate a City "master plan" at the time to construct elevated crosswalks connecting towers downtown. The Atlantic Bank building (last known as BB&T I believe) and the Duval Federal Savings & Loan Building (recently Iberia or Horizons Bank) on the Bay and Hogan corner of the Bank of America block were, I believe, also designed to accommodate this master plan, long ago abandoned (circa early to mid 1970's - maybe Lake could dig it up one day and feature it in a Jaxson article as I recall renderings were published in the Florida Times Union at the time). Another example of Downtown's inconsistent management.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 18, 2022, 10:21:58 PM
The Wells Fargo building, originally Independent Life, may have the dual sidewalk arrangement to accommodate a City "master plan" at the time to construct elevated crosswalks connecting towers downtown. The Atlantic Bank building (last known as BB&T I believe) and the Duval Federal Savings & Loan Building (recently Iberia or Horizons Bank) on the Bay and Hogan corner of the Bank of America block were, I believe, also designed to accommodate this master plan, long ago abandoned (circa early to mid 1970's - maybe Lake could dig it up one day and feature it in a Jaxson article as I recall renderings were published in the Florida Times Union at the time). Another example of Downtown's inconsistent management.
That I don't know - it might have been to tie into the walkaways there, but not sure. It's not a full level higher than street (only about 1/2 a floor) so if you were to do an elevated walkway to another street corner you'd have to have another 1/2 flight of stairs somewhere.
Personally I always thought they just wanted 2 levels of parking underneath the building and didn't want to go that deep, either for the water table or for the locomotive that's buried underneath the thing that they didn't want to unearth.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2022, 06:38:04 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 18, 2022, 02:35:25 PM
For those of you working downtown regularly, where would you put the 9-5 foot traffic now compared to pre-pandemic?
Feels like maybe 65% to me.
You're generous. Every day feels like a pre-covid national holiday. Now my perspective is warped, as my office overlooks the Landing site. Coastal Cookies alone, generated as much foot traffic as what I see at the intersection of Independent and Laura today. Hopefully, we've already bottomed out and are now in a Northbank comeback.
Hemming/JWJ area isn't much better, unfortunately.
Arriving downtown at 9:30 can still land me a 3rd floor parking spot in the Duval Street garage, 4th floor at worst, when it used to mean I was parking high 5th or on the roof.
Laura Street is where I notice the biggest difference. Pre-pandemic, it felt like we were sneakily creeping on critical mass between City Hall and the Landing.
It's just so quiet most of the time now.
Ditto the Riverwalk at lunch time.
Would hate to see how things would look if the city didn't renew the scooter plan, as that does drive some fairly decent foot traffic at times.
^ Where are all those Downtown "residents" DIA was recently bragging about :)? By counting Brooklyn and the Southbank, they are being deceptive about what is really happening in the Downtown core that us longtimers consider the real Downtown.
^They are spread out in Brooklyn and the Southbank, spending their money in Riverside and San Marco. I'm highly interested to see the impact that the adaptive reuse and infill projects NW of city hall will have, once they are completed. The key for the Northbank, LaVilla and Cathedral District is to put all that vacant public owned and non tax generating land back into service.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 19, 2022, 12:32:52 PM
^ Where are all those Downtown "residents" DIA was recently bragging about :)? By counting Brooklyn and the Southbank, they are being deceptive about what is really happening in the Downtown core that us longtimers consider the real Downtown.
I don't know that they were trying to be deceptive as much as they just don't know what builds a critical mass and the necessary foot traffic to support street level retail.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 24, 2022, 09:38:04 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 19, 2022, 12:32:52 PM
^ Where are all those Downtown "residents" DIA was recently bragging about :)? By counting Brooklyn and the Southbank, they are being deceptive about what is really happening in the Downtown core that us longtimers consider the real Downtown.
I don't know that they were trying to be deceptive as much as they just don't know what builds a critical mass and the necessary foot traffic to support street level retail.
This. I think it's taken them until now to realize that spread out developments aren't going to get it done, especially when those developments aren't designed well at street level. Truthfully I'm a little concerned about the lack of density in the North Core Developments, though have some hope since they're designed better at the ground floor and at least have some mid-rise density.
I'm not sure that building density the correct way is their highest priority with downtown. I think there are a lot of other factors, including politics, that come into play. With NOCO, what projects are you worried about that don't have enough density?
^This... politics. Always the #1 "planning tool" of the City. I was surprised (but maybe not too much) to see that the "Planning Department" was also the one that laid out the City Council districts that the Federal Court just threw out for being political, not in accordance with fair districting. That tells you exactly who controls our "Planning Department" and what their priorities are.
A total joke. I feel bad for the "professionals" that go to work there only to find out that the politicians "who know better" override any planning they truly try to implement.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 24, 2022, 01:18:26 PM
I'm not sure that building density the correct way is their highest priority with downtown. I think there are a lot of other factors, including politics, that come into play. With NOCO, what projects are you worried about that don't have enough density?
Just the height of the buildings, aside from the Independent Life Building. Most are low/Mid rise buildings. Now many of them are historic renovations so the buildings themselves aren't tall, so they're doing what they can with them. But you're just not going to get many residential units in any smaller building.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 24, 2022, 01:39:02 PM
^This... politics. Always the #1 "planning tool" of the City. I was surprised (but maybe not too much) to see that the "Planning Department" was also the one that laid out the City Council districts that the Federal Court just threw out for being political, not in accordance with fair districting. That tells you exactly who controls our "Planning Department" and what their priorities are.
A total joke. I feel bad for the "professionals" that go to work there only to find out that the politicians "who know better" override any planning they truly try to implement.
Honestly, I'm gonna be fair and say that I wouldn't really expect the planning department to not be "controlled" to some extent by elected officials. They're the ones who sign off on the zoning ordinances, after all. If anything, that's kind of
the expectation. Our problem is that we have
really bad elected officials. And on one hand, this isn't unique to cities, or large cities (See: LA's city council a few weeks ago), but the unique part is probably that they've genuinely stifled the city's prosperity and growth compared to its peers, while in most cities of this size they can't create a problem to that extent.
Quote from: Steve on October 24, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 24, 2022, 01:18:26 PM
I'm not sure that building density the correct way is their highest priority with downtown. I think there are a lot of other factors, including politics, that come into play. With NOCO, what projects are you worried about that don't have enough density?
Just the height of the buildings, aside from the Independent Life Building. Most are low/Mid rise buildings. Now many of them are historic renovations so the buildings themselves aren't tall, so they're doing what they can with them. But you're just not going to get many residential units in any smaller building.
This isn't
unfair, but I do feel like over 600 apartments in 4 blocks right next to a central park is nothing to sneeze at.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on October 24, 2022, 10:10:03 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 24, 2022, 01:39:02 PM
^This... politics. Always the #1 "planning tool" of the City. I was surprised (but maybe not too much) to see that the "Planning Department" was also the one that laid out the City Council districts that the Federal Court just threw out for being political, not in accordance with fair districting. That tells you exactly who controls our "Planning Department" and what their priorities are.
A total joke. I feel bad for the "professionals" that go to work there only to find out that the politicians "who know better" override any planning they truly try to implement.
Honestly, I'm gonna be fair and say that I wouldn't really expect the planning department to not be "controlled" to some extent by elected officials. They're the ones who sign off on the zoning ordinances, after all. If anything, that's kind of the expectation. Our problem is that we have really bad elected officials. And on one hand, this isn't unique to cities, or large cities (See: LA's city council a few weeks ago), but the unique part is probably that they've genuinely stifled the city's prosperity and growth compared to its peers, while in most cities of this size they can't create a problem to that extent.
I am going to be "unfair" and say a good planning department is given the rope to do their job without over-control by elected officials, good or bad. Why would you hire professional planners and pay millions more over time to planning consultants and then not listen to anything they have to say? Why don't we save the taxpayers money, eliminate the planning department and just let the mayor and the City Council have their way, as they seem to do now anyway? I would suggest there are a good number of cities that stand by their planning departments and that is what puts them ahead of Jacksonville that effectively plans next-to-nothing when it is all said and done.
I have heard or read of plenty of stories of applications for rezonings in other parts of the country where the planning department pretty much had the last word. What good is zoning if it is washed away simply by a developer lining the campaigns of elected officials as seems to be the case in Jax?
It would be interesting to see how many contested zoning requests by developers are turned down here. Anecdotally, I am told by those who are City Hall watchers, it is not many at all. In my personal experience, I perceive that the Planning Department leans toward approving requests just to save the very likely "humiliation" of being overridden by elected officials.