From across the river here at the Peninsula i hear the sounds of construction and see the bulldozers moving again on the Berkman 2 site, hopefully construction has resumed.
Good news! Imagine how our skyline will spread if Bay Street and Riverside Ave. get filled in.
Quote from: Julian on November 03, 2008, 12:29:11 PM
From across the river here at the Peninsula i hear the sounds of construction and see the bulldozers moving again on the Berkman 2 site, hopefully construction has resumed.
Hopefully you're right, however when I passed there today all I saw was them hauling away debris from the collasped garage.
Quote from: Seraphs on November 03, 2008, 04:11:59 PM
Quote from: Julian on November 03, 2008, 12:29:11 PM
From across the river here at the Peninsula i hear the sounds of construction and see the bulldozers moving again on the Berkman 2 site, hopefully construction has resumed.
Hopefully you're right, however when I passed there today all I saw was them hauling away debris from the collasped garage.
That's what I saw today as well. It should be wrapped up soon though.
The crane is back up and moving around, hoisting materials up to the top of the tower........
That's nice to know. Thanks for the update.
Good news.
I have a ground level view and workers have been in and out of the building the last two weeks. The have been cleaning and organizing the materials on the ground, repairing all of the temporary safety railings in the building and overall prepping the building and grounds to resume construction. The garage has been completely removed with the exception of the pilings driven into the ground, which will stay and be used again when the garage is being rebuilt. I have been saying it for months now and though it has been longer than expected, the project is going forward and the developer will finish it. When it is done it will be beautiful.
Quote from: Julian on November 25, 2008, 09:55:17 AM
The crane is back up and moving around, hoisting materials up to the top of the tower........
Nice. Hope they can build it safely the rest of the way.
I haven't seen the crane moving. I drive by there almost every day. Are they contractually obligated to finish this at some point? It's been a year since the garage crash.
There may be a contractual obligation with the City and BJP, but do you really see the city enforcing any restriction on the developers? Especially since the developer is going to finish the project. I have continually tried to let people know that the project is going forward. That is why they have spent the last three weeks preparing the building to resume. I am sure the developer would not have continued to lease that crane at I am sure a hefty expense if they were not going forward.
Faith people, Faith! BP2 will be finished by the developers and it will be beautiful once complete. With the state of our economy, just take this delay as a good thing.
Bass-
As much as I commend your enthusiasm, as a self-admitted sales agent for BP2, you certainly fall under the broad rubric of "interested party''. I agree that the city will not enforce its lien rights against the project as long a there remains a decent chance the tower will be completed. The problem now is that construction finance is virtually impossible to attain. Construction finance for a condo tower in Florida has become so unattainable that it will be the punchline of many a joke at lenders' office parties this season (the ones that haven't cancelled their parties, anyway). I hope I'm proved wrong, but a skeptic I remain.
Could this also be a sign that the market is beginning to stir? Maybe some of those "on hold" proposed and approved projects and developments will once again be put on the table and construction soon to start.
Heights Unknown
The only time that crane moves is when the wind gets up to about 10-15mph. It is Jacksonville's largest wind vane.
The company my uncle works for is building a condo tower for Novarre out of Atlanta. They are building the tower in Tampa that was originally supposed to be condos. They have been converted to apartments. He told me the same thing JaxTrader is saying. Financing in Florida for any condo towers is nearly impossible now. If they are unable to obtain construction financing are we going to be left with a concrete shell for years to come? How would the city be able to force them to finish construction?
Quote from: alta on December 06, 2008, 07:07:33 PM
The company my uncle works for is building a condo tower for Novarre out of Atlanta. They are building the tower in Tampa that was originally supposed to be condos. They have been converted to apartments. He told me the same thing JaxTrader is saying. Financing in Florida for any condo towers is nearly impossible now. If they are unable to obtain construction financing are we going to be left with a concrete shell for years to come? How would the city be able to force them to finish construction?
Novarre did the same thing in Charlotte. Financing wasn't the issue and the building is nearing completion. The national market generally, and the Wachovia shakeout locally (in Charlotte) are the reasons there.
Novarre isn't building BP 2. They didn't have a garage collapse in Charlotte or Tampa. Novarre has a history of getting projects completed on time and on budget. The follow market trends. The massive Metropolis in Atlanta was originally supposed to be all apartments until their was a strong demand in Midtown Atlanta for condos. BP2 has been sitting idle for a year!!!!
I'm looking from the Southbank but it appears that there is another crane at Berkman 2 today. However, I can't really tell if it is at the Berkman site or the sheriff's office/jail across the street. Can anyone confirm?
It is on Bay St, on the Berkman side. Why, I'm not sure. I was looking at it yesterday while at Marks.
They may be erecting the giant traffic redirection signs in time for football season...just a guess. It did not look like they were working on the Berkman...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 26, 2009, 02:46:36 PM
They may be erecting the giant traffic redirection signs in time for football season...just a guess. It did not look like they were working on the Berkman...
You're probably right. On a more optimistic note, when I first saw the tower cranes at the courthouse the other day I clapped and hooted in my car.
Uh-oh.
QuoteFor the curious who have wondered just what the giant red crane next to Berkman Plaza II is for, here’s your answer: The massive mobile unit now situated on Bay Street is being used to take down the large tower crane that’s affixed to the under-construction residential building, said Stephen Gaedchens, a service manager for the company that operates the crane. The job is being completed by 10 workers, he said, and should take several days, weather permitting.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=528897
Damn, that cursed building is probably going to sit and rot like the Pablo Escobar tower in Medellin.
OCKLAWAHA
Yeah I had a feeling that's what they were doing with that crane. Berkman 2 is done...
I'm not an expert in anything related to construction... but can they let that half-finished shell of a building just sit there... half-finished?
^ I think so. Check out "The Cove at St. Johns". Massive multi-building development at Baymeadows & San Jose that has been sitting uncompleted for a couple years.
Bad news. If there is no financial lifeline to finish the tower, whoever owns the property may just demolish it and here we are with another empty lot; I don't think they'll just let it sit and rot.
Can't let it sit like that for long or even forever.
Heights Unknown
Urban warfare paintball park, early 80s Beirut style! What an addition to the downtown entertainment scene!
Demolition is expensive so it might just sit.
And people said I was wrong that it wouldn't be completed.
That's going to be an awful eyesore on the skyline, damn it.
How about a 2 for 1 special: Tear down Tower 2 and the $ky-high-way at the same time! :D
Two failures, two eyesores, two blights - all gone in the blink of an eye. 8)
Quote from: stjr on August 27, 2009, 01:03:38 PM
How about a 2 for 1 special: Tear down Tower 2 and the $ky-high-way at the same time! :D
Two failures, two eyesores, two blights - all gone in the blink of an eye. 8)
I kind of like that concept with a twist... With a new convention center at the old Courthouse site, why not turn Berkman 2 into a giant Skyway Station with built in TOD features...
On second thought, perhaps we could cover the sides with plastic sheeting and paint walls and windows on it, anything but a dead high-rise. OCKLAWAHA
Maybe it could be used as the base of a giant tramway crossing the river... :)
(http://www.rioc.com/intropix/tram/tram1.gif)
The city of Jacksonville gave that parcel of land to the developer (who developed BP1) on the promise that he would build another tower. It was supposed to be completed no later than the beginning of 2010, I believe.
The BP2 also had 70+ people who are still under contract to purchase units divided between two brokerages - Watson and Floridian Lifestyles.
I'd imagine class action lawsuits are being undertaken by the contract holders to receive their deposits back, all in addition to the lawsuits between the contractors and anyone else involved in the design aspect of the tower.
I highly doubt riverfront property in that section will just "sit" there forever.
The Shipyards, adjacent to Berkman, has sat for 18 years (and counting).
There was a multi-tower condo project on the tip of Treasure Island next to St. Petersburg that stopped construction in 1972 and wasn't completed until the early '80's. The open concrete towers were used by many generations of seagulls for nesting. They were a terrible eyesore for the whole time.
That's what I was afraid of. This might actually be worse than the Shipyards.
Quote from: Lunican on August 27, 2009, 04:36:50 PM
The Shipyards, adjacent to Berkman, has sat for 18 years (and counting).
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4OYGjUrdllo/SMQ0QRYHyDI/AAAAAAAAG_k/ZPXRonk6_Qc/s400/italy_mair_1.jpg)
The Incentive...
The Shipyards was NOT the location of Jacksonville Shipyards Inc, rather it was the remains of a massive industrial complex that turned out some 100 M/L vessels for the allied war effort in WWII. It was still empty in 1980, you tell me how long it sat on the riverfront? The distinctive cast concrete buildings with HUGE - GIANT sloped ways on top that formed a cradle on top of each of 5 or 6 buildings. The north side of the buildings were a couple or three storys high and the backs (south side) sloped down right into the river. They had enough railroad track, foundries, metal shops, warehouses, and work floors in that place to build a medium size navy. (http://jaxhistory.com/1LibtyShp.jpg)
The Ponce De Leon, first Liberty Ship built at "The Shipyards" east of Hogans Creek. OCKLAWAHA
A few shots of the crane coming down:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/632218779_ca42h-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/632219713_HvJXr-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/632219305_4qPzE-L.jpg)
I'm hoping that they're going to implode and rebuild. My thinking is that even though the garage collapse only affected a small portion of the tower, it may have compromised the structural integrity of the whole thing.
Quote from: reednavy on August 27, 2009, 08:54:57 PM
I'm hoping that they're going to implode and rebuild. My thinking is that even though the garage collapse only affected a small portion of the tower, it may have compromised the structural integrity of the whole thing.
I've kind of gone over that a few times myself, especially since that ground is really riverbed and the whole damn thing is on sand fill. The only reason the northbank isn't somewhere around Forsyth Street today is the City has been pushing that water back with junk, rock and finally sea walls and river walks. Watch what happens when we have another hurricane Dora... Glug, glug, glug...OCKLAWAHA
While it would be great to have a 2nd highrise there, with the amount of people wanting a refund on their deposits - why would there be a rebuild? With the economy the way it is, it would be more than tempting to get a 20% deposit back. Remember this project is over 2 years old, and property values have sunk tremendously while the 70 or so contract holders have had their money tied up in escrow this whole time.
The condo market is dead on the vine right now, and no one in their right mind is going to pay $200k++ for a condo when the first tower has short sales and comps under $100k...
Added to that, generally: highrises aim for a minimum of 50% of the units in the building to be under solid contract before breaking ground. That would put Berkman 2 at about 100 units. That quota was never reached.
The reason the building started BEFORE even 50% was sold was because the City of Jacksonville gave the developer that land under the promise that he build a 2nd tower, completed, by 2010.
I'm thinking we could use it for the Pretrial Detention Facility Annex. Again.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 27, 2009, 09:16:26 PM.............I've kind of gone over that a few times myself, especially since that ground is really riverbed and the whole damn thing is on sand fill. ..................
Sort of but not quite. Buildings in that area sit on deep foundations. (Piles, cassions, etc.) That puts the
building down to what they call pile refusal. In this case is probably in the 60 to 90 feet below the lowest floor foundations. Sidewalks, paving and small buildings are another matter.
Quote from: Overstreet on August 28, 2009, 04:19:41 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 27, 2009, 09:16:26 PM.............I've kind of gone over that a few times myself, especially since that ground is really riverbed and the whole damn thing is on sand fill. ..................
Sort of but not quite. Buildings in that area sit on deep foundations. (Piles, cassions, etc.) That puts the building down to what they call pile refusal. In this case is probably in the 60 to 90 feet below the lowest floor foundations. Sidewalks, paving and small buildings are another matter.
Yeah, I'm aware of the piles that support the true weight, most of which are pounded to the bedrock or limestone. Jacksonville Terminal sits atop something like 200 piles most at 75 feet deep, (what you newbies know as the "Prime Osbourne"). What I was having some fun poking at was the fact that if that Northbank seawall ever topples into the river, you better run NORTH and FAST. Talk about the missing quays, even the Modis building would look like it was built on a pier. LOL.
In the hurricane's of 1960-64 Bay street was completely under the river in downtown. We have never done a "New Orleans" and created a diversion route for excess water. One could imagine a giant box about the size of a downtown street in width and height, and running from around the Landing North to the Trout River or Talleyrand, Moncrief etc... Of course it would have to be under a street and of course it will never happen... Now about Global Warming and rising water levels... HA HA!
BTW, the piles and cores taken so deep is how they found the ancient Volcano cone that sits under the Orlando international Airport! Igneous Rocks in FLORIDA!OCKLAWAHA
Modis building has two or three levels of basement below street level siting on 90 foot caissons. You wouldn't see the bottom of the "pier" above water. You also wouldn't see the locomotive that is burried under the building. There is also the bulkhead at the river and also the remains of the bulkhead that ran on the Landing side of the Water street.
If that ever happened you'd be worring more about the loss of telephone and the influx of raw sewage. There is a rather large telephone duct bank and a 54" sanitary force main that would be washed away first.
The top of the river bulkhead seems to be either 5 or 6 ft msl. So most any real 9ft storm surge will be interesting. However I think a 4ft will flow into San Marco and take some of the pressure off of downtown for a short time.
I think that a storm surge from the ocean would also put everything from the end of the Dames Point Bridge to Nassau Sound under water before downtown would fill up.
I don't remember any dramatic flooding from Dora. I've seen worse during a Northeaster.
Quote from: Lunican on August 27, 2009, 04:36:50 PM
The Shipyards, adjacent to Berkman, has sat for 18 years (and counting).
Yeah but no "firm" buildings/development was ever seriously built on that property.
Heights Unknown
Some work was started on the site, but no building was ever begun.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453492897_t9xqA-M-1.jpg)
This is a pretty slick video from a couple years ago that shows the proposed buildings.
http://www.youtube.com/v/0ks7zVHEnDs
Sad times that this stuff hasn't been built. Would've significantly altered and benefitted the North Bank skyline.
I love the video though - the dramatic epic-movie-trailer theme and all.
The bulkhead or "seawall" along the riverbank was worked on and from as close as I have been able to get looks great. I would like to see the area opened to public access until a new project to develop is found.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 12, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
The bulkhead or "seawall" along the riverbank was worked on and from as close as I have been able to get looks great. I would like to see the area opened to public access until a new project to develop is found.
that is expected to happen by summer 2010....assuming City Council doesn't cut the brick pavers and other features from the budget
I wonder could they live without brick pavers if it saves a few bucks? No one walks less on the riverwalk in front of the TU center because its concrete instead of brick. In any event, it will be good to get it open to the public.
Quote from: Doctor_K on September 11, 2009, 07:32:49 PM
Sad times that this stuff hasn't been built. Would've significantly altered and benefitted the North Bank skyline.
I love the video though - the dramatic epic-movie-trailer theme and all.
Totally, I agree!
Berkman Plaza, 2 years later: A trail, and tale, of fatal errors
A downtown garage under construction collapsed at dawn, along with confidence it was built to last.
Concrete slabs were cracking. Beams were straining. Disaster was coming.
A young man would be dead soon, others hurt, and millions of dollars lost.
But the workers and managers at the Berkman Plaza 2 construction site in Jacksonville didn’t grasp the urgent danger inside the parking garage until its six stories collapsed around them before dawn on Dec. 6, 2007.
Building crews had reported trouble to their bosses for weeks.
“Before I saw my nephew get killed, we were telling them the problems. … They were going to fix them,†James Ferrell, a construction foreman whose nephew died in the rubble, recounted this year at a federal hearing on the collapse.
Searchers worked two days to find the body of Willie Edwards III, a construction worker and single father pulling extra hours to pay for Christmas presents.
The cause of the collapse is still in dispute, two years after more than 20 workers were caught in a tangle of slabs and steel cables that sprawled along East Bay Street.
A court case between developer Berkman Plaza 2 LLC and general contractor Choate Construction remains unsettled, as well as a lawsuit by the developer against subcontractors it blames for more than $36 million in losses. The garage was razed and construction is frozen on the 23-story condominium it was supposed to serve.
A subcontractor is also fighting $132,500 in federal fines tied to the collapse, challenging a government conclusion the collapse was caused by crews removing temporary supports on the building’s lower floors. Edwards’ family previously said they plan to sue, but his father, Willie Edwards Jr., declined to say Tuesday whether that is still planned. Ferrell and Edwards’ mother, Melanie Wesley, did not respond to messages left by phone and in person at home addresses.
But accounts of the construction project â€" offered in interviews, job-site records, legal testimony and government records â€" describe a cascade of errors and oversights by engineers, building crews and inspectors that, taken as a whole, undermined a building meant to stand for decades.
Those included: concrete supports designed too small for the job; a garage ramp built without essential steel reinforcements; and beams weakened by air pockets formed when concrete was poured.
Safety margin used up
Although a lifetime spent in buildings trains people to think otherwise, making any structure stand up is hard.
Building codes recognize that and expect that potentially ruinous defects will happen unnoticed. To compensate, standards are written to be far tougher than are really needed.
But if builders or engineers rely on that safety net to cut corners, they’re gambling that others on the job haven’t exhausted that margin already.
(full article at the link)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-05/story/berkman_plaza_2_years_later_a_trail_and_tale_of_fatal_errors
Quote from: Jimmy on August 27, 2009, 05:26:22 PM
That's what I was afraid of. This might actually be worse than the Shipyards.
If the city planners have thier way, they will always think of the worse possible thing to waste valuble space.
If anyone can tell me of the current status of the Berkman II, that would be great.
Seems I saw in the paper (or was it here?) a couple months ago that they have pretty much stopped the project. The tower crane has been removed, and they need that for the construction work.
yup.
just remembered - the sales office has been closed, too.
If the city gets it, what would YOU BOYS AND GIRLS DO WITH IT? I'd love to hear some ideas, Museum? Aquarium? Diving Platform? Shopping? Humm?
OCKLAWAHA
Why would the City get possession of the B2 site? It's not like the Shipyards deal, where the City loaned the "developer" funds, with the land as collateral - is it?
B2 is still involved with many lawsuits against the contractors and developer. Not much of a need for new units downtown right now as many of B1 units are in foreclosure, so I think it will be a while before they start back up, but these will get finished at some point.
QuoteWith downtown revitalization in mind, the city has been a catalyst in the process, providing $9.3 million in incentives for Berkman and millions more for other projects.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/062803/bus_12903439.shtml
The city provided $9.3 million, but I don't know if that means they could take possession of the land.
QuoteThe city provided $9.3 million, but I don't know if that means they could take possession of the land.
More than likely they could be a lien holder, but that structure has more than 9.3 million already in it.
The land was given to the developer when building BP1 on the promise he would build another tower by this year.
This project is not only dead due to the garage collapse, but there have been "other" issues that will make this sucker impossible.
We could sheath the whole building in metal panels and make it into the worlds first convenience store mall.
Fill every floor with 10 gallon aquariums and house the worlds largest Gold Fish collection, "Only at the Jacksonville Berkman Aquarium."
Create the largest multilevel paint ball course in the world.
Extend diving platforms from each floor out over the river and call it the International Diving Center.
Make the nations best homeless apartment complex and service center out of it.
Finally claim the title of the "Unfinished Furniture Capital of the World," and create the worlds largest unfinished furniture mall.
Have the first multistory trailer-house dealership in the United States.
Convert the semi complete floors into the biggest U-Store-It place in the country.
Just thought a few suggestions were in order, God knows, we wouldn't want to be left with a huge White Elephant in downtown.
Invent a new bowling game, "only in Jacksonville, THE VERTICAL BOWL," a perfect game is 300 points but you can add 100 more if the ball falls through.
OCKLAWAHA
This looks a lot like Berkman 2.
http://www.youtube.com/v/GtIjUn7_erY&hl=en_US&fs=1&
Lunican, do you know what building and where that was?
I would be floored if Berkman 2 was demolished.
South Padre Island, Texas.
QuoteSOUTH PADRE ISLAND, Texas â€" Demolition crews have imploded an unfinished, leaning 31-story South Padre Island condominium tower.
The Valley Morning Star of Harlingen reports that at least 1,500 spectators on land and on dozens of boats watched as the Ocean Tower took just 12 seconds to collapse on itself.
Officials say cleaning up the rubble should be done by April.
The Ocean Tower was to be a 151-unit luxury project slated for a spa and other amenities. Construction began in 2006 but stopped last summer when it became obvious the tower was sinking faster than attached parking garages, causing cracks in beams and columns.
Ahhh ok. That actually makes sence.
There is nothing wrong with the actual building. The parking deck was re-inforced improperly which led to the demise. I think B2 will eventually be finished, not torn down. Some local developer will buy it on the cheap and finish it.
I think it will sit for 15 years, then be torn down.
Quote from: Lunican on December 18, 2009, 11:21:15 AM
I think it will sit for 15 years, then be torn down.
I sure as hell hope you're wrong. I'd rather have a vacnt lot than an empty, homeless infested shell of a high-rise.
At first glance it at least it looks like (for now) new development is happening downtown to uninformed visitors.......maybe they can put up another crane.
QuoteI sure as hell hope you're wrong. I'd rather have a vacnt lot than an empty, homeless infested shell of a high-rise.
We already have that, its called the Laura Trio, next door is the old Barnett tower. Gutted useless buildings would also include the old Library, which to me, never seems to ever get off the ground.
In other words, you want empty gutted buildings, we got 'em downtown.
I'm obviously not breaking any news with this, but it's stagnant as ever concerning tearing down our (in)famous downtown eyesore, the Berkman Plaza II.
www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=3310946&navCatId=20896
That must be killing a place like this. A building that probably needs to be taken down can't.
Im so sick of looking at that thing. But it probably will sit there until court proceeding are finally over. Im ready for it to be gone. Install some sod, a park, something. anything but that.
I am equally sick of looking at the condos at Baymeadows and San Jose. At least in that area, just up the road, Old San Jose was able to start moving again.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 28, 2012, 06:18:09 AM
That must be killing a place like this. A building that probably needs to be taken down can't.
We really, really need another surface parking lot in that area. NOT! Couldn't we just get someone to finish it and put some tasteful foam and stucco on the outside? Is the design really that ugly? Could it be upgraded while being finished?
I just hate to see some potential living spaces downtown go away.
One thing you can say about Berkman II, it is a perfect symbol for downtown Jacksonville.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 28, 2012, 04:21:49 PM
I am equally sick of looking at the condos at Baymeadows and San Jose. At least in that area, just up the road, Old San Jose was able to start moving again.
Are those the one's by walgreens at baymeadows and san jose that have been sitting there for like three years? There are so many of them I lose count.
QuoteAre those the one's by walgreens at baymeadows and san jose that have been sitting there for like three years? There are so many of them I lose count.
Yes, they sit as a lovely backdrop to Stonewood grill on Goodby's creek.
Quote from: Lunican on December 18, 2009, 11:21:15 AM
I think it will sit for 15 years, then be torn down.
6 years and counting...
Has anyone made the joke "brokeman plaza", yet?
If not, you're welcome.
Seriously is there any hope for ever finishing it? Has it been 10 years now? I thought the court case was finally settled this year....
I'm sure there were many lawsuits, but this was settled last year:
QuoteMore than a year after the case was arbitrated, the general contractor of the Berkman Plaza II Downtown riverfront condo project has been awarded $12.4 million against the developer for nonpayment and breach of contract, giving the company several options to collect, including to foreclose on the property.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/04/27/berkman-plaza-ii-loses-12m-lawsuit.html?page=all
This is not my video, but it looks like someone went in there a took a video from the 17th floor:
http://www.youtube.com/v/r6j3jVB_4bc?version=3&hl=en_US
Sell the demo rights to a movie company to film a thrilling scene imperiling the innocent patsy while the intrepid hero saves said patsy (or for a twist, the pasty saves the hero) while demolishing the building - with lots of stuff that goes "boom".
It will never be finished, the developer already pulled out when the real estate market went south, and there is no market anymore that would support a condo building that size in that location. It will end up getting demolished.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 13, 2013, 07:51:59 PM
It will never be finished, the developer already pulled out when the real estate market went south, and there is no market anymore that would support a condo building that size in that location. It will end up getting demolished.
You seem very sure.
I am not.
Would you mind making your case for why the existing shell absolutely could not be used for anything?
(I realize I am assuming the work to date is in acceptable condition)
I look forward to learning quite possibly why the structure absolutely cannot be integrated into any vision of the future for the Ship Yards.
I am not attempting to aggravate or irritate.
Win me over.
I just hate waste.
The market for condos is not what it was when that project was begun, I don't know that current demand especially in that area would support the sales prices required to make it economically viable.
If the developer jumped shipped on it - who owns it now?
As for using it for a movie, it's probably cheaper to do that with computers:)
Quote from: coredumped on December 13, 2013, 09:24:27 PM
If the developer jumped shipped on it - who owns it now?
As for using it for a movie, it's probably cheaper to do that with computers:)
It's owned by whatever shell corporation the developer started up to limit liability.
I wish someone could evaluate the structure and put an end to the speculation about whether it will HAVE to be demolished or not.
There is precedent for this sort of thing. Here in Kansas City, the construction of a concrete high rise apartment building was halted in 1930 due to the stock market crash. It was left exposed for about 14 years before finally being completed in the mid-1940s. I'm sure there are other examples from the same era.
This is how it looked in 1940, after a decade of extreme winters and summers (KC has both):
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a497/bruinbrain/ClydeManor1940_zps79612adb.jpg)
This is it today:
(http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a497/bruinbrain/ClydeManor2013_zpse0f085d9.jpg)
It wasn't as exposed as Berkman II, but the top 3 floors were, and none of the others had windows.
THANK YOU ^
Even if berkman 2 (needs a new name BTW) never gets any taller, it does not even HAVE to be residences, right?
I am not sure it is structurally sound. I know I would not want to go through it or live there, based on what transpired there.
This building was not built by same contractor as the garage and used different construction methods. Concrete structures can withstand weather many years, example EverBank Field. The abandoned units in Mandarin have finally found an investor, and if the price is right, the same might happen at Berkman II.
I've never understood the whole wanting to live across from the jail thing...
I think the draw would be the river and downtown. You just happen to also be next to a jail and a coffee plant.
QuoteThis building was not built by same contractor as the garage and used different construction methods.
Good luck selling that upstream without a paddle. LOL!
Somehow death trumps living on the river....
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 13, 2013, 07:51:59 PM
It will never be finished, the developer already pulled out when the real estate market went south, and there is no market anymore that would support a condo building that size in that location. It will end up getting demolished.
I'm sure people said the same thing about the condos off Baymeadows...and they are under construction again...with prices north of $400k
Quote from: ben says on December 14, 2013, 12:12:25 PM
I've never understood the whole wanting to live across from the jail thing...
I wouldn't have any detrimental NIMBY-esque feeling living somewhere like that. Don't forget, most importantly it's also across from JSO. I wouldn't call that anything unique either (urban detention center with nearby housing). I would have that 'weird and unsafe' feeling living nearby a suburban or rural jail moreso than across the street from an urban jail with adjoining police HQ.
Living across the street from a jail provides a constant stream of live urban street entertainment. It's like being in law & order re-runs, everyday! Plus it has to be one of the safest areas in all downtown due to the police presence.
Anyone know the occupancy rate of B1?
I enjoy many of you trying to make light of the whole across from the jail thing...and I pretty much agree with you. But that's one hell of a hard sell...especially to people potentially dropping a few hundred thousand on a new place. While we all say "who cares about the jail for XYZ reasons"--most people in the market for a new place aren't thinking along those lines.
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 14, 2013, 07:54:20 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on December 13, 2013, 07:51:59 PM
It will never be finished, the developer already pulled out when the real estate market went south, and there is no market anymore that would support a condo building that size in that location. It will end up getting demolished.
I'm sure people said the same thing about the condos off Baymeadows...and they are under construction again...with prices north of $400k
I lived on Treasure Island during the 1970's. There was a three building, high rise, ocean front condo development started right at the south tip. The 1972 oil embargo and recession bankrupted the developer just after the concrete shells of the buildings were completed. There were no walls, just pillars and floors as they were using the jackup method on construction.
They stood totally open to weather and wind and weather for over ten years and were used by thousands of laughing gulls as a nesting and roosting place. Looked like something from an end of the world movie.
Sometime in the 1980's they were cleaned out and completed. If they had been steel frame they would have rusted away in the salt air.
Berkman isn't ocean front however.
The framework of B2 could be fine. But haven't they installed a lot of drywall? I would imagine that would all have to be torn out.
interesting and very long chat. Berkman 2 will be completed. Action is happening on it now. Mike Lyons just reported that the original contractor who won the lawsuit was not paid, and will foreclose. After that he'll need to finish it to get his money back. Long time coming...
...and don't forget, Lamping said that if no one steps up, Khan will develop the Shipyards. Isn't it obvious that B2 has to happen for everything to fall into place?
[citation needed]
And welcome to the forum, Downtown.
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 14, 2014, 10:59:44 AM
interesting and very long chat. Berkman 2 will be completed. Action is happening on it now. Mike Lyons just reported that the original contractor who won the lawsuit was not paid, and will foreclose. After that he'll need to finish it to get his money back. Long time coming...
Great to finally see some action. And yes, welcome to the boards.
Great news
Thanks. Here's the link.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/news/local/2014/02/07/city-fining-owners-berkman-plaza-2-downtown/5294119/
Lyons misses the obvious point, but it's all there between the lines.
^Well, that article doesn't say that they'll finish it, just that they'll take it.
right, but they are building contractors, not speculators. They could write down the loss of the judgement and call it a day, but instead they are foreclosing. I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me. Timing is good.
Who says they will get their money back by finishing it? It might just land them in a bigger hole.
Could be. But that means they are on the hook for the carrying costs while they shop the property to someone else. Whoever buys it, in that scenario, would then complete the project. Why else would they buy it? Why foreclose when you could just write down the loss?
Atleast something is happening.
Yes. Now maybe the city will get around to fixing the hole in Liberty Street. Two year anniversary coming up.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Shipyard-future/25163440
Does anyone think the Shipyards would be developed without the Berkman 2 along for the ride?
^Actually, yes, and the Shipyards isn't a done deal anyway.
Hopefully we will here some real news soon. These properties = very sad ):
my guess is that one of two things are likely to happen as a package deal. Either Berkman 2 gets done and the Shipyards is developed, or neither will happen and the Jaguars leave town. I just can't conceive of a scenario where Khan doesn't develop the Shipyards if he intends to keep the Jags here. And I believe he intends to keep the Jags here. Call me a cockeyed optimist.
downtownbrown is a cockeyed optimist.
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but if this doesn't get worked out along with the trio and old barnett building that would be:
Failed / indefinitely delayed:
Berkman 2 / Shipyards
Riverside YMCA
Barnett
Trio
Beaver Street Villas
Greyhound station
Library Facade
If we could get these moving and completed it would be great for the urban core... unfortunately there always seems to be some sort of short sight or road block... Is there anything we can do to get these projects moving? I feel like this forum has a lot of great minds that could point the herd in the right direction.
all it takes is Money and Political Will. Our tax base lacks the former, and our mayor lacks the latter. So private development is our only hope. Which is why the short answer is Shad Khan. He has much to benefit. He'll get tax concessions, and the value of his franchise will increase greatly. It's easier to fill a stadium when folks can easily walk from a fun destination to the game.
...and InncerCity: ;)
Quote from: jaxjaguar on March 27, 2014, 11:32:06 AM
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but if this doesn't get worked out along with the trio and old barnett building that would be:
Failed / indefinitely delayed:
Berkman 2 / Shipyards
Riverside YMCA
Barnett
Trio
Beaver Street Villas
Greyhound station
Library Facade
If we could get these moving and completed it would be great for the urban core... unfortunately there always seems to be some sort of short sight or road block... Is there anything we can do to get these projects moving? I feel like this forum has a lot of great minds that could point the herd in the right direction.
The Riverside YMCA broke ground in December and as of that date they had raised over 90% of the funds to build it.
Quote from: carpnter on March 27, 2014, 11:40:40 AM
The Riverside YMCA broke ground in December and as of that date they had raised over 90% of the funds to build it.
Unfortunately all they've done is move the sign... I ride my bike past it on a daily basis. It's been mentioned that they've run into a financial road block. :(
Quote from: jaxjaguar on March 27, 2014, 11:32:06 AM
Not to be a Debbie Downer, but if this doesn't get worked out along with the trio and old barnett building that would be:
Failed / indefinitely delayed:
Library Facade
which project is this...the old library? If so, construction is underway inside
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 27, 2014, 11:54:02 AM
which project is this...the old library? If so, construction is underway inside
The New library. The facades facing Main and Duval.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on March 27, 2014, 12:35:56 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 27, 2014, 11:54:02 AM
which project is this...the old library? If so, construction is underway inside
The New library. The facades facing Main and Duval.
What is wrong the those facades? The are currently fixing water leaks on the Main Street facade, but it was new when they built the Library.
Quote from: carpnter on March 27, 2014, 01:12:37 PM
What is wrong the those facades? The are currently fixing water leaks on the Main Street facade, but it was new when they built the Library.
I stand corrected on that one. I had just noticed the missing bricks for the last 6 months or so.
Regardless we need some sort of presence from this site to help expedite and sustain projects in the urban core. I feel like a lot of us would show support. We have a lot of non-registered lurkers willing to show up for rallies or meetings. The vast majority of the meetings are held at hours most of us 9-5ers can't make, though. Maybe we should have a MetroJax meet up?
MJ does that weekly...I believe Tuesdays at 7pm at the Pizza Palace in san marco
Since when do the Jaguars and the Shipyards go hand in hand? Besides the owner saying he would be interested in a project I don't see how the two are linked. And also, EVERYONE is interested. However, the city still hasn't decided what it wants to do with the property and all developers seem skittish about being the first ones to throw their hat in the ring.
I think by looking to Khan to single handedly save Jacksonville is not only unfair to him, but very shortsighted of us as a community. And if the shipyards are fully dependent on the Jaguars, than I guess we won't see movement for another decade because they are here at least until 2027.
think by looking to Khan to single handedly save Jacksonville is not only unfair to him, but very shortsighted of us as a community.
^^ Jax being shortsighted!!! Certainly you jest.
I can think of some pretty cool projects that got done in Seattle because of the will of one man.
Paul Allen.
So looking at Khan is not shortsighted. Expecting him to do everything, perhaps. Not everyone expected Paul to make it all work. (and in some cases it just didn't)
The perspective on the Berkman Townhomes from 2003 is pretty funny.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=39193
The townhomes range from $565,000 to $695,000.
WHERE DO THEY SEE THE AREA IN
FIVE YEARS?
"I think it will look like Lakeshore in Chicago or Bayshore in Tampa," said Walker.
"This will have been the best deal," said Blackard. "People will be able to get right out of their boat and walk to the finest restaurants in town."
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 28, 2014, 01:31:32 PM
The perspective on the Berkman Townhomes from 2003 is pretty funny.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=39193
The townhomes range from $565,000 to $695,000.
WHERE DO THEY SEE THE AREA IN
FIVE YEARS?
"I think it will look like Lakeshore in Chicago or Bayshore in Tampa," said Walker.
"This will have been the best deal," said Blackard. "People will be able to get right out of their boat and walk to the finest restaurants in town."
That is why that go down in their boats to the Fish Camp {sarcasm} because there are no fine restaurants in town!
Just joking!
Let's put 2003 into perspective, we had just had the Super Bowl, buzz was all over the place for downtown. Peyton was in his first term still and he was going to run the City like a business. The Berkman Townhomes had just completed in 2002 and the economy was on fire and real estate could do no wrong.
Now there are 3/2.5 townhomes for sale at Berkman for 400,000. The construction was spotty and many, since they are built over the river, have moisture issues. Ick.
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 30, 2014, 09:08:12 AM
Let's put 2003 into perspective, we had just had the Super Bowl
um, maybe we just were awarded the super bowl but the event itself was still on the horizon.
"Now there are 3/2.5 townhomes for sale at Berkman for 400,000. The construction was spotty and many, since they are built over the river, have moisture issues. Ick."
Not so. Construction is quite sound, moisture is not an issue, but yes, they are built on the river. Units in recent years have gone for considerably less than 400k, but if Berkman and Shipyards actually happen, I suspect that number will increase.
QuoteConstruction is quite sound, moisture is not an issue, but yes, they are built on the river.
Mold in air conditioners comes from moisture entering the houses. I know first hand a number of the units had mold and moisture problems, not only with the AC units but also with the stucco.
Prices are up double-digits each month in 2013, so it tends to raise all boats, even if the Shipyards are nowhere to be seen.
anyone know what that crane is doing on that Shipyards pier? Looks like a lot of hardware lying around.
That crane and hardware are for the southbank riverwalk project.
ah. Staging. Thanks. I assume that structure is either the old or new water taxi stand.
Quote from: downtownbrown on April 02, 2014, 01:51:57 PM
"Now there are 3/2.5 townhomes for sale at Berkman for 400,000. The construction was spotty and many, since they are built over the river, have moisture issues. Ick."
Not so. Construction is quite sound, moisture is not an issue, but yes, they are built on the river. Units in recent years have gone for considerably less than 400k, but if Berkman and Shipyards actually happen, I suspect that number will increase.
I beg to differ. There were definitely moisture and mold issues. Pipes exploded inside the walls in several units. Special assessments upwards of $500-$1000/month were added to already lofty mortgage payments. By the time the crash happened many residents had walked away. Those who stayed - well a $275k condo was now worth $89k.
Quote from: exnewsman on April 22, 2014, 05:59:23 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on April 02, 2014, 01:51:57 PM
"Now there are 3/2.5 townhomes for sale at Berkman for 400,000. The construction was spotty and many, since they are built over the river, have moisture issues. Ick."
Not so. Construction is quite sound, moisture is not an issue, but yes, they are built on the river. Units in recent years have gone for considerably less than 400k, but if Berkman and Shipyards actually happen, I suspect that number will increase.
I beg to differ. There were definitely moisture and mold issues. Pipes exploded inside the walls in several units. Special assessments upwards of $500-$1000/month were added to already lofty mortgage payments. By the time the crash happened many residents had walked away. Those who stayed - well a $275k condo was now worth $89k.
I have heard many people who have lived in Berkman-I say that there were numerous structural issues, however most have been completed. Also, there is no condo unit in the building worth below $90k (per prop appraiser site), and none on the market below $145k currently http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/Plaza-Units%20for%20Sale%20Apr%201%202014.pdf (http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/Plaza-Units%20for%20Sale%20Apr%201%202014.pdf). Even the rentals are doing well there now, making the 220 Riverside lack of signings confusing to me (but I am a layman with no real estate background/education) http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf (http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf)
I lived in Berkman for 3 years (2010 - 2013) and never had any problems there with mold or moisture while I was living there.
^ I think it depends on where, I know some that were like you. Never had a problem, loved it, wished the area around it built up. But than I know of three off the top of my head that horror tales of water leaks behind the walls and then after the leaks were fixed one had major mold issues. But two still live there, and they say they haven't had a problem lately. Since 2011/12 it has been corrected. I think the biggest problem, and what will hurt any development on Tower 2 is that the urban myths that seem to lurk over the site. I mean my friends were having those issues in 2007/08 and here it is five years later and it is still what comes to mind when people hear the name. That will be hard to overcome.
Quote from: JayBird on April 22, 2014, 07:37:01 PMEven the rentals are doing well there now, making the 220 Riverside lack of signings confusing to me (but I am a layman with no real estate background/education) http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf (http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf)
220 Riverside is just too expensive for an unproven area. Their units are almost 30% more expensive than those at the town center. If they lower the price to town center levels people will move in and then they can consider the prices they originally planned.
I was dead set on moving there until I saw they were charging $1000 a month for a 600sq ft studio. I'd still have to pay trash fees, utilities, cable, internet, etc on top of that... this isn't New York or Atlanta. You won't be able to get away with those prices from the get go. Young professionals need to be encouraged to moved into these areas before the more wealthy ones will come.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 23, 2014, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: JayBird on April 22, 2014, 07:37:01 PMEven the rentals are doing well there now, making the 220 Riverside lack of signings confusing to me (but I am a layman with no real estate background/education) http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf (http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf)
220 Riverside is just too expensive for an unproven area. Their units are almost 30% more expensive than those at the town center. If they lower the price to town center levels people will move in and then they can consider the prices they originally planned.
I was dead set on moving there until I saw they were charging $1000 a month for a 600sq ft studio. I'd still have to pay trash fees, utilities, cable, internet, etc on top of that... this isn't New York or Atlanta. You won't be able to get away with those prices from the get go. Young professionals need to be encouraged to moved into these areas before the more wealthy ones will come.
The location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.
I would consider the money saved while living at the Town Center compensation for having to deal with the most poorly planned part of town and its resulting traffic. I also don't see the appeal of living at the Town Center from a "being close to all these shops and restaurants" perspective as you would need to drive to them.
Yeah, how can you possibly compare Town Center with the Core? Apples and Oranges. I don't think the Berkman 1 construction issues will matter a bit if Berkman 2 gets built. Just guessing, but I bet the format of Berkman 2 changes from "luxury residences" to "urban apartments" just like the Hendricks project has done. If the project is finished, I hope the target market is young professionals. Younger the better.
Quote from: spuwho on March 27, 2014, 10:21:27 PM
I can think of some pretty cool projects that got done in Seattle because of the will of one man.
Paul Allen.
So looking at Khan is not shortsighted. Expecting him to do everything, perhaps. Not everyone expected Paul to make it all work. (and in some cases it just didn't)
In real estate, Seattle has about 5 other men in addition to Paul Allen who are all just prolific developers and positive community influences. Real estate development is their primary vehicle of investment, though (versus Paul, who has Vulcan, but also has an army of investments and awesome distractions in his one in a billion life)...the city really has a lot more than these guys, but it has 6 individuals in particular including Allen who can put up dreamy high rise towers targeting Millennials or class A office towers for Amazon or some larger investment advisor's special account. These guys get things done. But Seattle, man, what a place. It has stars in every category (Paul Allen certainly being one of them...though!)
If Khan turns out to be a Paul Allen, the city might be attractive to me in particular to move back to. I would love to be a part of that!
Quote from: Josh on April 23, 2014, 08:42:59 AM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 23, 2014, 08:19:02 AM
Quote from: JayBird on April 22, 2014, 07:37:01 PMEven the rentals are doing well there now, making the 220 Riverside lack of signings confusing to me (but I am a layman with no real estate background/education) http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf (http://www.theplaza1.com/editor_upload/File/April%202014%20Rental%20List.pdf)
220 Riverside is just too expensive for an unproven area. Their units are almost 30% more expensive than those at the town center. If they lower the price to town center levels people will move in and then they can consider the prices they originally planned.
I was dead set on moving there until I saw they were charging $1000 a month for a 600sq ft studio. I'd still have to pay trash fees, utilities, cable, internet, etc on top of that... this isn't New York or Atlanta. You won't be able to get away with those prices from the get go. Young professionals need to be encouraged to moved into these areas before the more wealthy ones will come.
The location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.
I would consider the money saved while living at the Town Center compensation for having to deal with the most poorly planned part of town and its resulting traffic. I also don't see the appeal of living at the Town Center from a "being close to all these shops and restaurants" perspective as you would need to drive to them.
Jaxjaguar:
In Atlanta a similar unit would be 1.5x more expensive, so not really in the same level as New York. In New York, they don't build stuff like this (this is essentially still suburban stuck in a downtown-adjacent site). But if we are considering this luxury, amenities, "mid-rise", and location-location-location, to get the same in New York it would be 4-5x as expensive. But then also shrink square footage from 600 to 400 or less. ;)
Josh:
Let me know when you get rid of your car in Jax. :)
If Khan turns out to be a Paul Allen, the city might be attractive to me in particular to move back to. I would love to be a part of that!
[/quote]
that's exactly what the city doesn't get, and what developers want to hear
It only takes one to get the ball rolling. Success breeds interest, and others will follow if they see opportunity from Mr. Khans investment in the city.
QuoteThe location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.
+1
Gotta remember, there is nothing, virtually no life besides Bay Street at the end near Berkman Plaza. Most of the cool hip places are near the FL Theatre or near the old public library or along Laura Street. Yeah, you can be cool and hip, look out over the river, but you have the jail behind you and an empty courthouse that has more rats than patrons.
Besides 220 is the hip, new place to be. Town Center has traffic nightmares and to get anywhere at TC, you need a car, there is little public transit. Not so at 220, with great connections to 5 Points and Riverside, and expansions going on in Brooklyn, possible skyway extension, this is the nucleus of the downtown rejuvenation. Besides, that $1000 a month gets you ready for the sticker shock of ownership in Riverside Avondale. :o
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 24, 2014, 01:13:25 AM
QuoteThe location and amenities alone would make 220 worth the the extra money IMO, especially if you work in the urban core. That is even if I didn't get rid of my car and save $400-$500 a month right there.
+1
Gotta remember, there is nothing, virtually no life besides Bay Street at the end near Berkman Plaza. Most of the cool hip places are near the FL Theatre or near the old public library or along Laura Street. Yeah, you can be cool and hip, look out over the river, but you have the jail behind you and an empty courthouse that has more rats than patrons.
Besides 220 is the hip, new place to be. Town Center has traffic nightmares and to get anywhere at TC, you need a car, there is little public transit. Not so at 220, with great connections to 5 Points and Riverside, and expansions going on in Brooklyn, possible skyway extension, this is the nucleus of the downtown rejuvenation. Besides, that $1000 a month gets you ready for the sticker shock of ownership in Riverside Avondale. :o
I have to disagree with a few things here but I can tell your thinking is well-placed. In my opinion Berkman II is a far superior location for amenities and walkability. The walk to Bay St and the FL Theater can best be described as short and painless, not even long enough to carry on a full conversation with your friends along the way. What, honestly, is there around 220 Riverside? It will be relatively bland commercial below (I'm guessing dry cleaning, nail salon, cheap sushi, a bar that lasts a few months and is replaced, a UPS store, and one shining star perhaps).
I do agree, though, that residents are needed. Or more downtown office workers. Both support small businesses. The egg is demand in the form of residents, tourists, and/or workers. The chicken is businesses to support them.
Your quote also reminds me that now is the time to strike while its hot. Ron might agree...
This discussion is good.
QuoteThe walk to Bay St and the FL Theater can best be described as short and painless, not even long enough to carry on a full conversation with your friends along the way. What, honestly, is there around 220 Riverside? It will be relatively bland commercial below (I'm guessing dry cleaning, nail salon, cheap sushi, a bar that lasts a few months and is replaced, a UPS store, and one shining star perhaps).
Corner Bistro is bland? Whole Foods is bland? Simms - Come on man, 220 is going to be awesome. Sure it will have dry cleaners and nail salons and a UPS store, but communities NEED these places, not to mention a mobile phone store, because Lord knows we need a phone store on every corner to flip back and forth between Verizon and Sprint. 220 will develop and expand based on what the residents support. No different than what King Street or 5 Points have become or even Avondale Shoppes.
I don't consider a walk from Berkman II to the FL Theater the same quality of walk as I do walking from my house to the shoppes of Avondale. But I am an urban homeowner, and not a downtown dweller who only knows concrete construction. Grass, trees and greenery, I have learned, are good things to appreciate. Something lost in downtown living, albeit Hemming and a few pocket parks (thanks Mayor Peyton).
Yes, my perspective is a little different. Both Corner Bakery (which is a national chain) and Fresh Market, a higher end big box grocer, are "bland" to me, though at least one is necessary (and will serve more people driving into Avondale, Riverside, Ortega, and points beyond...Clay County, than walkers from the "neighborhood" of Brooklyn). Both will be in a bland strip center surrounded by surface parking. Anything in DT Jax to me is less bland!
The walk from house a couple blocks away to Shoppes of Avondale is urban for Jax standards, but this is still low density for most of the country (~3,000 ppsm of upscale homes and shops). I wouldn't say it's necessarily super urban when you compare to SF suburbs or townships surrounding Boston, Philly, NYC, or Chicago, and certainly not comparable to other cities' "core inner neighborhoods". I'd call it comfortable living for upper middle class/upper class households with some charm, as opposed to the bland stucco gated communities that dot FL. My standards are a little too high perhaps, but I'd like to see suburbs that look and function like Avondale, and Avondale look and function a little more like a "concrete city".
To me, the walk from Berkman II to FL Theater would likely be more "interesting". A few more sights and sounds, perhaps. More general traffic...the biggest obstacle is that damn courthouse, but maybe one day that side of the road will be as interesting as the other. A few surface lots need to be developed, as well, but I trust them to be built on well before anything big happens in the 2 block stretch of Avondale's shops.
NIMBYism hasn't yet affected downtown - it just suffers from a lack of proper investment and poor city leadership that can't build an economy that supports natural occurring development of the area guided by wise infrastructure/planning decisions. NIMBYism has, however, become a huge part of Avondale, and I suspect the neighborhood will suffer from it unnecessarily.
Not to turn this into a discussion about Avondale, which I love, I personally prefer Berkman II's waterfront location along the Riverwalk and with access to Bay St and the theater/entertainment district, as well as walking access to downtown office towers. I love 220 Riverside and think it's great, but I left Atlanta in a stage when it was building that stuff 15+ miles out, so to me it's been there done that. It's unique for Jax, but give it 10+ years of higher growth and urban infill development and 220 Riverside will become a dime a dozen.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 24, 2014, 01:13:25 AM
Besides, that $1000 a month gets you ready for the sticker shock of ownership in Riverside Avondale. :o
There is sticker shock in Riverside-Avondale? ;) Always a nice pyramid up to the top!
If I ever move back, I will be very very happy. My rent in SF will put me in a $500,000 house, easily, and I'm just now 26. That $500K will get you "affordable housing" here in the city, or a market rate 400-500 SF for purchase studio in the Tenderloin (the city's most notorious neighborhood). There is a 3,879 SF penthouse in a very otherwise affordable (think 1BRs and Studios) building in the TL now down-priced to a mere $4.25M ($1095/sf, and of course no yard and monthly HOAs of $4,118, though that gets you 2 subterranean garage spaces, which is a very rare "luxury" here, LoL - consider 2 garage spaces equivalent to waterfront, ha). Nearby is a former dental school building converted to apartments where 275 SF micro-units started at $1550/mo when it went on the market (though I heard some went for nearly $2K).
But yes, for Jax, a place like 220 Riverside is kind of the top of the rental market. I suspect that a lot of guys who move there will get laid just for living there. That always makes me happy when people "benefit" like that. I could never afford a place that would get me laid here :( (though if I weren't dating someone, out of towners are always impressed just by the fact I'm able to live in the city at all!). When I lived in Jax, (or actually I think I was visiting from Atlanta), I was impressed by someone's top floor loft at 11 East. That person also kept a pad in NYC, so I suspect it was chump change, but to me it was cool. Hmm, worth a possible investment if they were for sale!! Vestcor, are you listening??
QuoteIt's unique for Jax, but give it 10+ years of higher growth and urban infill development and 220 Riverside will become a dime a dozen.
It took the 220 Riverside partners 10 years to get their project from concept to being constructed. A lot can change in 10 years, we had a super bowl about 10 years ago and all our leaders were padding each other on the back, saying Jacksonville will change because of the super bowl. What really changed?
Publix-anchored Riverside Market Square, what we call the Riverside Publix was built in 2001, can you believe it is almost 15 years old, already, how has that area grown or collapsed during that period? The area still looks great and fresh with new shops opening up as old ones are not supported by the residents.
If the residents want a nail salon, they will support it, just as if they want a Five Guys burger joint, they will support that too, or not as was the case. Corner Bakery may be a chain, same with Whole Foods, but these are new to this area and represent MAJOR investment in a still yet unproven solution. No one knows for sure if 220 will make it, but just as with 1661, not withstanding the ongoing lawsuit over construction, the market will decide if it wants to pay to live near convenience. If Popeye's chicken moves in and stays, its supported by the people who live around it. Otherwise, it leaves, no matter if its chain or not. Town Center is made up almost entirely of chains, yet it survives because people support them. Hawkers and Corner Taco are local shops, supported in 5-points by locals.
Let the residents decide what they want to support. Just as with the Landing, citizens decided they did not want to support Fat Tuesday or the other high end stores, and they left. Same will happen at 220 Riverside or any other commercial development. It is however nice to see that developers are willing to risk it to develop with the plan that people will support their developments. Something, which would be nice to see more of downtown.
^^^I agree, mostly. That's precisely why I said a nail salon will open, a dry cleaner, a bar to be replaced every 4-8 months by a new bar owners, a cheap sushi place, etc etc. However, 220 Riverside is 295 units. Not really a real "critical" mass for much to be supported by just the residents themselves.
And I'm not trying to be a snob, literally a nail salon is one of the stores in my own building, but SF is just a different world. We literally have laws against chains (there are large swaths of the city where any business with more than 11 locations internationally or owned by a parent with 11 or more locations internationally is considered a chain and cannot open). We also rioted when Jack Spade and Steven Alan opened in the Mission and Hayes Valley, respectably. People here are literally political about this and people also seem to prefer to shop in Le Petit Marchet or the "Real Food Company" or the "Larkin Corner Grocer" as opposed to [insert big store here], Whole Foods of course being "acceptable", LoL. My perspective on what's bland and my general feelings towards chains (not that I consider Jack Spade to actually be a big "chain") is a little skewed, naturally, by my environment.
The Landing was meant as a tourist draw. Unfortunately, Banana Republic is not enough to make Jax suburban residents downtown tourists, and there are no other tourists. It wasn't residents saying they didn't want that stuff, because they sure as hell love it in multiple locations across the city, but it was bad timing, a bad concept, and nothing else to create support.
It has been my long held view that Brooklyn as a whole will never really be able to be built out to a large population that can be self-contained and create real demand for lots of businesses. 220 Riverside is a *vast* improvement of land use over what we have, but long term is actually a pretty inefficient use of the land. The other apartment development next door is what I would call an abomination of land use adjacent to downtown, even if it's a super huge improvement and provides "downtown housing". I realize we must take baby steps, but my perspective is kind of broad and formed by being a snobby resident of a truly urban place. Brooklyn will end up a concealed medium-density community of a few apartment buildings, office buildings, a hotel, and some other uses in a pretty unwalkable context, cutoff by highways. We can "fix" all of this at cost, but rebuilding LaVilla properly would simply be more effective. As would filling in Springfield and San Marco, and the Northbank itself.
In spite of all the positive attributes of the new projects in Brooklyn, as an overall lost urban development
opportunity (net benefits of new development vs. loss of historic fabric), I agree.
Maybe I am a snob, and don't get enough mani-pedis (sp?),
but I consider a salon to be a tenant of last resort (this may be an Atlanta perspective).
No offence to anyone whose mother works in one.
In terms of the shops at 220 Riverside, one thing to consider is the support available from the Brooklyn (apartments behind fresh market), and if a restaraunt, the potential lunch draw from the Riverside Avenue offices.
Also, I'd personally consider 220 much more walkable and desirable than Berkman 2. Though a longer walk than for me (I like at Bell Riverside, formerly known as The Villas), and the only thing I need a car for day to day is to go to work (Butler and 95 isn't exactly walking distance). Berkman on the other hand doesn't offer you a grocery or a ton in the way of eateries.
Simms is right. From Berkman, the Florida Theater is a mere mosey. Along the way you pass Mikes, Lavernius Cole's new club about to open, the Underbelly. Olio, which got national recognition recently, will eventually be open for dinner. Across the street from the FT is the best bar in all of Jax, Dos Gatos. New cigar joint on Ocean if you need a rest from that 5 minute stroll. Hungry? You can't beat Indochine. Really really hungry? Burrito Gallery right in the same building. Another few minutes and you are at La Cena (if you can afford the wait for service...), and as long as you are on Laura, a few doors down on West Adams is the new whiskey bar, Volstead. And I'm only mentioning a fraction of the whole.
If that whole footprint were in NYC it would be called a small neighborhood (the Village, Little Italy, SoHo, you name it). Any suggestion that any Core spot from Berkman is out of reach is just plain silly. This is urban living, and the opportunities are growing, not shrinking. It's not for everyone, and clearly most people in Jax want to be way way out in the burbs, but the Core could clearly attract the young talent demo that Jax needs, if only they had a place to live.
Build Berkman 2 as an affordable apartment format, and it will fill quickly.
Oh, and by the way, Berkman is only a 1.8 mile stroll to the RAM by the well lighted and attractive Riverwalk, so clearly Brooklyn is part of the story. It's not either/or.
^ very well said
Quote from: Steve on April 24, 2014, 08:22:56 AM
In terms of the shops at 220 Riverside, one thing to consider is the support available from the Brooklyn (apartments behind fresh market), and if a restaraunt, the potential lunch draw from the Riverside Avenue offices.
Also, I'd personally consider 220 much more walkable and desirable than Berkman 2. Though a longer walk than for me (I like at Bell Riverside, formerly known as The Villas), and the only thing I need a car for day to day is to go to work (Butler and 95 isn't exactly walking distance). Berkman on the other hand doesn't offer you a grocery or a ton in the way of eateries.
Commercial uses at 220 Riverside will not be able to rely on just Brooklyn office or residential if they want to survive. At buildout, still not a lot of residences right there, and at the end of the day really not that much office either (and really not walkable for office).
I think I'm reading your mind and reading that you can more easily walk over to Riverside from 220 Riverside. Yes. This is very much akin to Mid-Market's revitalization where I live and the ability to walk from there to Hayes Valley since there isn't much yet in Mid-Market. I think city to city, the same kind of demographic that lives in 220 Riverside lives in the new apartment towers springing up in Mid-Market here (i.e. lots of tech workers who own cars and commute to the Peninsula/Valley and are paid kind of at the top of the market for their age bracket, and Twitter employees who can walk next door to their new office).
When I moved to SF, I looked at Mid-Market. Atlanta's just a totally different city and I was used to living in a fairly new high rise, so Mid-Market being that I took a first look. In this city, it just wasn't for me. The area wasn't vibrant or convenient enough to all the goodies I wanted. I think Berkman II is still more walkable - more consistent shade in the summer, too. Being anywhere close to the 6-lane highway that is Riverside Ave is a little too sterile for me and a totally unnecessary heat pad.
I definitely don't think that the retail should rely 100% on office workers, but they help. The restaraunts in 5 points don't rely 100% on the downtown/Brooklyn office workers, but they definitely don't hurt.
I think you got my point on the walk ability from 220. My guess is most of those people would use Fresh Market rather than Publix if walking, despite the walking through the asphalt.
Good point on the heat....Riverside Ave does suck.
Hey, so today is the day! I figure the "auction" (really just a formality) will last about five minutes. The local media will breathlessly report that the building has a "new owner" (Choate, who is taking the building with a gun to its head as they try to salvage something from their construction lein). This will be followed by a long, long period of silence, and the Vagrant Hotel will continue with operations as usual.
haha that was epic... If it comes to pass... that better stay in the archives for all to see.
No takers. They say they did not expect any actually. Looking to sell it now for development. They indicate has been interest. We shall see.
wouldn't the price of the auction have included that 10 million in lawsuit as well
They have said they do not expect to get anywhere near the 10 million of any sale. Sounds like they are hoping to sell to someone who may take them on as the contractor so they will be able to recoup some more. At least that is the way I read the article which is up on JBJ.
Quote from: edjax on April 29, 2014, 02:51:52 PM
They have said they do not expect to get anywhere near the 10 million of any sale. Sounds like they are hoping to sell to someone who may take them on as the contractor so they will be able to recoup some more. At least that is the way I read the article which is up on JBJ.
Shame I didn't see that article. I may have been a little enticed to look into it more. Oh well.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/04/29/exclusive-choate-construction-will-look-to-sell.html
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 29, 2014, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: edjax on April 29, 2014, 02:51:52 PM
They have said they do not expect to get anywhere near the 10 million of any sale. Sounds like they are hoping to sell to someone who may take them on as the contractor so they will be able to recoup some more. At least that is the way I read the article which is up on JBJ.
Shame I didn't see that article. I may have been a little enticed to look into it more. Oh well.
You should look into it. The point of the auction was to give them the property, now they can negotiate a sales price with somebody like you if you're interested.
Potentially very good news. Hopefully Choate moves quickly and finds a quality developer. I also hope whoever buys it looks into changing the façade/architectural style if possible. Imagine they would just have to modify their PUD/development plans with the city. Berkman 1 is meh to put it kindly.
An Actionnews story on some of the challenges that a potential developer would face concerning saving Berkman 2.
www.actionnewsjax.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=5073173&navCatID=20896
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 29, 2014, 03:51:54 PM
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 29, 2014, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: edjax on April 29, 2014, 02:51:52 PM
They have said they do not expect to get anywhere near the 10 million of any sale. Sounds like they are hoping to sell to someone who may take them on as the contractor so they will be able to recoup some more. At least that is the way I read the article which is up on JBJ.
Shame I didn't see that article. I may have been a little enticed to look into it more. Oh well.
I will look into it further. I am just assuming there is a hidden catch behind this all I just need to figure out what it was/is. Thanks for the tip edjax
You should look into it. The point of the auction was to give them the property, now they can negotiate a sales price with somebody like you if you're interested.
I just started a website, but restructure has lead me to split off the team I had and start this one here. Most of my dealings are from Italy, where I bought, renovated and sold "ruins" as they are called. I am still constructing the website and updating it everyday. I opened a facebook page a few years ago, but I have never been one to do social media. Hence the forum style is still very new to me as well. The person who leads my construction team though has been in contracting for 30+ years. He was the foreman that was involved in the painting of the maxwell house building back when they built their extension. I have a few projects underway one of which I will further elaborate at the end of the week. The client has a one of a kind idea and she doesn't want it leaked yet. I also am pushing forward the renovation of the old shotgun houses. I have one more meeting before I should be able to have a start date on that one. Aside from that I am about to work with the investors that brought the Cigar bar downtown to acquire a building and put lofts. Not too much really as of right now to show in per say investment, but I do have the connections and backing to where making deals to secure funding is very easy.
I am also going to start attending ALL of the meetings that are posted throughout here so that all persons interested in talking with me will have very easy access to me. I will also as soon as I acquire a private office that is easier accessed have an open door type policy where someone will always be seen regarding whatever matter they put forth.
Past experience in rehabbing 'ruins' will come in very handy in Jax!! All kidding aside. Wish you well and hope you are da real ting.
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 29, 2014, 05:59:16 PM
I also am pushing forward the renovation of the old shotgun houses.
Say no more, I officially love you! :D
If my user avatar isn't a give-away, I have a special place in my heart for shotgun houses. I would love to be involved in their preservation in some way, to perhaps own a shotgun house myself someday, and to even push them as a model for guiding the "small house movement" into urban neighborhoods and onto a larger scale. They have great potential to allow high densities and homeownership for people who don't want excess living space, but with the benefits of a single-family package as an alternative to small apartments or condos.
I would love to hear more about your involvement with shotgun renovations. Are you talking only of the 3 in LaVilla, or others elsewhere in Jax?
I just Liked Auditore's FB page because I sure do Like what he's saying. We need heros.
Thank you very much. I can woo the ears off of most city officials, but with out a backing of the people of jacksonville I can only get so far. Your support means a lot to me. Not even as a whole, but as individual people.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/05/30/exclusive-atlanta-developer-working-deal-to-finish.html?ana=e_jac_bn&u=ygqEucf1R4zx2qN+cQ4YCq9X/Bf&t=1401470194 (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/05/30/exclusive-atlanta-developer-working-deal-to-finish.html?ana=e_jac_bn&u=ygqEucf1R4zx2qN+cQ4YCq9X/Bf&t=1401470194)
QuoteEXCLUSIVE: Atlanta developer working deal to finish half-built Berkman tower in Downtown Jacksonville
Ashley Gurbal Kritzer
Reporter-
Jacksonville Business Journal
An Atlanta apartment developer is in talks to buy the half-built Berkman II condo tower from the general contractor who now owns it.
Fingers crossed apartments are probably a better use than condos.
^yep a steady group of 200ish extra people living in the core would be awesome! It would be great for the bars / restaurants along bay street.
Wow. Who knew moving the Jazz Festival would produce results this quickly. ;D
^^good one
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 30, 2014, 03:19:00 PM
Wow. Who knew moving the Jazz Festival would produce results this quickly. ;D
(http://members.jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/premium_415_wide_scale/brown-temp_2.jpg)
This guy ^^^^^
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 29, 2014, 06:01:14 PM
I am also going to start attending ALL of the meetings that are posted throughout here so that all persons interested in talking with me will have very easy access to me. I will also as soon as I acquire a private office that is easier accessed have an open door type policy where someone will always be seen regarding whatever matter they put forth.
Love your positive vibe...that type of energy is exactly what we need! Was just curious if you are incorporated here in Florida? I have not yet had an opportunity to research your company, so please forgive me if I am asking a question that is answered on your website. Either way, I wish you much success in your endeavors and look forward to reading/hearing of your progress. :)
Incorporated in Italy, I was setting up shop in New York for a while, but I am in the process as establishing as a Florida Corporation while still keeping it connected to Italy as I still have dealings there. Not sure if the Web page works right now as I am looking for a better host with more versatile options. If anyone has a suggestions on it I would like the feedback...
as for jazz fest did it really produce some result in development or was that sarcasm I missed.
Welcome to Florida AE!
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on May 31, 2014, 10:15:46 PM
as for jazz fest did it really produce some result in development or was that sarcasm I missed.
I believe that was sarcasm.
Yes. I tried to select a smiley that would get that across to the reader.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on June 01, 2014, 10:36:15 AM
Yes. I tried to select a smiley that would get that across to the reader.
The smiley are hard to see you because I have been using my phone lately to read the boareds lol. They need to get an icon of Willie wonka or Nicholas cage to properly insert sarcasm lol
What kind of work do you do in Italy AE?
Looking into starting a business there, just curious.
Quote from: Ajax on May 30, 2014, 01:21:08 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/05/30/exclusive-atlanta-developer-working-deal-to-finish.html?ana=e_jac_bn&u=ygqEucf1R4zx2qN+cQ4YCq9X/Bf&t=1401470194 (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/05/30/exclusive-atlanta-developer-working-deal-to-finish.html?ana=e_jac_bn&u=ygqEucf1R4zx2qN+cQ4YCq9X/Bf&t=1401470194)
QuoteEXCLUSIVE: Atlanta developer working deal to finish half-built Berkman tower in Downtown Jacksonville
Ashley Gurbal Kritzer
Reporter-
Jacksonville Business Journal
An Atlanta apartment developer is in talks to buy the half-built Berkman II condo tower from the general contractor who now owns it.
This is great! I hope it doesn't fall through like the doomed Publix project in San Marco.
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on June 01, 2014, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on June 01, 2014, 10:36:15 AM
Yes. I tried to select a smiley that would get that across to the reader.
The smiley are hard to see you because I have been using my phone lately to read the boareds lol. They need to get an icon of Willie wonka or Nicholas cage to properly insert sarcasm lol
I'm glad you're here from somewhere else. Outsiders are the only ones that can save Jacksonville and all of Florida, IMO. Please please please stick to the Italian and NYC style of urbanism. Do not let the good ol boys sway you to build their way, the Floridiot way.
Dude, seriously, enough with that.
Quote from: ben says on June 01, 2014, 02:19:48 PM
What kind of work do you do in Italy AE?
Looking into starting a business there, just curious.
We purchased and renovated a few historic structures and rent them out as vacation spots. Businesses do well there depending on what and where it is.
Sorry, I'm trying to hold my tounge. The status quo just frustrates me so much.
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 30, 2014, 03:19:00 PM
Wow. Who knew moving the Jazz Festival would produce results this quickly. ;D
Funny, but the crowds at the festival were amazing. I don't know where the people came from, but I'm pretty sure very few were from the east side of the ditch.
razor wire never looked so good as it does around the perimeter of Berkman 2. The Homeless Hotel is officially closed. Even Elvis has left the building.
Quote from: downtownbrown on June 11, 2014, 02:21:50 PM
razor wire never looked so good as it does around the perimeter of Berkman 2. The Homeless Hotel is officially closed. Even Elvis has left the building.
Razorwire? gee they aren't playing about not wanting people in there huh lol
I spoke too soon. Yes, there is razor wire. No, it isn't stopping the vagrants from jumping over it. Jacksonville is really good at not noticing the obvious. Consider the hole in Liberty Street. It has been there since April of 2012, and the road has been closed since then. Nobody seems to notice. Not the media. Not the government.
liberty street hole update. Rounding third. Going to finally be fixed soon.
I saw the razor wire a few weeks ago but I have been too busy to mention it. It was coiled up near the bottom of the interior fence much like detention facilities have. It's a wonder the idiots jumping the fence haven't been seriously injured yet.
Any update on this?
I think this structure presents a great opportunity for Jacksonville. We can take advantage of our current notoriety and turn an eyesore into a major downtown attraction to help ramp up revitalization efforts. Paris has the Louvre, St. Petersburg has the Hermitage Museum, and now Jacksonville can turn The Berkman 2 into the Clay Yarborough Center for Appropriate Art.
That's funny :D
How long can it sit there before the city deems it an eyesore or a hazard?
Quote from: coredumped on December 04, 2014, 06:24:56 PM
Any update on this?
Update: The developer presented plans to the DIA and asked for $5 million. DIA said no. So now it's either completely in limbo or part of Khan's grand bargain. (just a guess).
As to the hole in Liberty Street, City Council has deferred specific legislation to fix it over and over since August. The city is suing the insurance company, but for a while there CC was going to fix it and let the GC worry about the suit. But no movement in either direction.
As I've stated before, The Berkman II is the perfect symbol for the state of things in Downtown Jacksonville. And the location, directly across from the jail, is the icing on the cake. It may well make it into it's third different Mayor, if Brown is not re-elected.
Quote from: MusicMan on December 05, 2014, 10:38:15 AM
As I've stated before, The Berkman II is the perfect symbol for the state of things in Downtown Jacksonville. And the location, directly across from the jail, is the icing on the cake. It may well make it into it's third different Mayor, if Brown is not re-elected.
When I was walking to Sweet Pete's last night for an event, walking past at least half a dozen empty storefronts, the reality of how crappy our downtown is hit me. We have an incredibly long way to go. Dang.
Thanks for the update downtownbrown. This building is a huge black eye on the city - it's always featured on football games, and is probably something the NFL sees when they (if they) look at us for another superbowl.
have Kim Scott declare it unsafe, and it will be gone by morning.....
In one of Lamping's quotes about Shipyards development he mentions that Berkman has to be resolved. He has also said that part of the plan is residential. Hopefully that means Berkman, and hopefully this time Khan will deliver as promised, that is, an announcement around the first of the year.
Were not at 20 years yet, so plenty time to spare.
Quote from: heights unknown on August 27, 2009, 11:52:56 AM
Bad news. If there is no financial lifeline to finish the tower, whoever owns the property may just demolish it and here we are with another empty lot; I don't think they'll just let it sit and rot.
Can't let it sit like that for long or even forever.
Heights Unknown
Sorry, saw the thread bumped and this was too funny not to quote.
The building is currently under contract to sell with a new investment company. Hopefully the sale goes through and renovations start soon.
So the investment company plans to convert it into a hotel? Will they need public money to pull it off?
Quote from: thelakelander on November 25, 2016, 12:31:52 PM
So the investment company plans to convert it into a hotel? Will they need public money to pull it off?
Obviously too early to tell, but maybe someone whose a bit more clued into local business dealings can guess: any ideas what hotel this would be? As far as branding/holding company goes?
^^ More important what is the current occupancy DT, particularly the Northbank. Hasn't the Hyatt always struggled to stay full? What are the daily rates?
The Due Diligence Period was extended; hope the building is bought and renovated or replaced. It is time for this eyesore to be gone from Downtown. I have been complaining about it for the past several years.
The two parties are under a non-disclosed agreement so the details are limited. The due-diligence contract was extended to allow for an attempt to rezone the parcel:
ORDINANCE 2016-780
AN ORDINANCE REZONING APPROXIMATELY 2.02± ACRES LOCATED IN COUNCIL DISTRICT 7 AT 500 BAY STREET EAST BETWEEN CATHERINE STREET AND LIBERTY STREET (R.E. NO(S). 073358-0200) AS DESCRIBED HEREIN, OWNED BY CHOATE CONSTRUCTION COMPANY FROM PLANNED UNIT DEVELOPMENT (PUD) DISTRICT (ORDINANCE 2005-754–E) TO COMMERCIAL CENTRAL BUSINESS (CCBD) DISTRICT, AS DEFINED AND CLASSIFIED UNDER THE ZONING CODE; PROVIDING A DISCLAIMER THAT THE REZONING GRANTED HEREIN SHALL NOT BE CONSTRUED AS AN EXEMPTION FROM ANY OTHER APPLICABLE LAWS; PROVIDING AN EFFECTIVE DATE.
Does anyone think there might be a market for office space? Could be built out to lease specifications. Maybe DCPS could take half of the building and switch sides of the river.
I can't imagine Berkman's narrow residential footprint being good for office use. If DCPS wants to come to the Northbank, we still have a lot of space available in exising office buildings.
I always see suggestions that DCPS should sell their riverfront property and set up their offices elsewhere. Is DCPS looking to do that? Or is is just wishful thinking on the part of those who think the DCPS site is ripe for some kind of development?
Quote from: Bativac on November 29, 2016, 03:12:44 PM
I always see suggestions that DCPS should sell their riverfront property and set up their offices elsewhere. Is DCPS looking to do that? Or is is just wishful thinking on the part of those who think the DCPS site is ripe for some kind of development?
From a January 2016 interview.
Can anyone even think of a space that meets the below requirements?
QuoteDuval County Public Schools Superintendent Nikolai Vitti understands that over the years developers have salivated over the idea of obtaining the five-acre school board property. Now as the area surrounding the six-story, 112,461-square-foot building is on the cusp of taking off, he said he is more than willing to entertain fair offers for the Duval County School Board Administration building so that it might be relocated to a more advantageous location for both the city and the school district.
"There's nothing about being on the river in this location that is associated with student achievement," Vitti said in a telephone interview. "I'm willing to sell the building at a fair price."
Although he has not done any specific "leg work" or "analysis," Vitti said an acceptable offer would have to meet the following criteria:
It would enable the school district to move to a central location, preferably downtown;
It would enable the school district's headquarters to move to a newer, more environmentally-friendly building that would have lower energy costs and be less expensive to maintain on a yearly basis;
It would enable the school district to relocate into a building with plenty of parking that would cost less to upgrade than the one the school district currently inhabits.
"We'd like to have something in the general radius of where we are now, but not on the water," said Vitti, a San Marco resident. "It could be on the outskirts of downtown."
Ideally, Vitti would like to have the school district own its own building as it does now, but said he is not opposed to renting. "It would be great if we could purchase the land where we would move. Ideally, we want our own property, as we own what we have now, but I'm not against renting. It's all about the cost," he said.
Vitti also said he was willing to consider moving into a smaller building and relocating some of the departments now housed in the School Board building into Duval County school buildings that have unused space.
"The bottom line is the size of the building doesn't need to meet the seating capacity of our current building," he said. "I don't think all of our departments have to be located in a central building. For instance, curriculum and instruction doesn't need to be in a central building. It could be in different schools that are under-utilized. Also, the parent and community engagement office could be spread throughout the county," he said.
So far Vitti said he has engaged in casual conversations about a possible move, but hasn't been presented with anything official. "I'm willing to entertain proposals, but so far there has been nothing formal at this point," he said.
I'm sure it's a pipe dream, but I'd love to see DCPS purchase / fix up the ambassador hotel building at 310 W Church Street. It would increase the foot traffic in an area that desperately needs it and eliminate an eyesore.
I'm sure with the price they could get on their current building and grants they could get it, it wouldn't cost them much. But I doubt they'd take on the project due to effort involved.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 29, 2016, 03:57:40 PM
I'm sure it's a pipe dream, but I'd love to see DCPS purchase / fix up the ambassador hotel building at 310 W Church Street. It would increase the foot traffic in an area that desperately needs it and eliminate an eyesore.
I'm sure with the price they could get on their current building and grants they could get it, it wouldn't cost them much. But I doubt they'd take on the project due to effort involved.
Ambassador Hotel is probably better suited for residential since it sort of was in it's original life. The Florida Baptist Convention building might be a better choice.
That building is better for tax purposes, but still not great for bumping up density in the core. What about the free Mason building behind the courthouse... Is that currently occupied?
Florida Baptist is way too small and has no parking. If they'd consider leasing, One Enterprise Center is still half empty but parking would still be an issue. If JEA still wants to move, their building has more than enough space and its own parking garage. However, maintenance could be an issue since that's why JEA is considering leaving.
Quite frankly, I can't think of an existing building in the Northbank that would meet Vitti's criteria. That criteria pretty much drives them to edge spots like LaVilla, Hansontown, Brooklyn or North San Marco near the Kings Avenue garage. With that said, they should partner up with JTA. JTA has tons of land for infill near adjacent Skyway stations and lots of underutilized parking. Replace a parking lot with a new urban building to fit their needs and utilize the Skyway and its associated lots for their parking needs.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 29, 2016, 05:02:24 PM
That building is better for tax purposes, but still not great for bumping up density in the core. What about the free Mason building behind the courthouse... Is that currently occupied?
It's occupied by the Grand Lodge. At one point they were trying to lease the street level retail spots but from what I understand, they ran into code issues.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 29, 2016, 05:08:06 PMWith that said, they should partner up with JTA. JTA has tons of land for infill near adjacent Skyway stations and lots of underutilized parking. Replace a parking lot with a new urban building to fit their needs and utilize the Skyway and its associated lots for their parking needs
Interesting idea. I like it. JTA even owns the wooded piece of property between the existing DCSB building and the interstate. They could build right there and utilize the King's Ave garage during regular working hours. Or even build on the empty lot at the SE side of that garage.
Any JBJ subscribers able to summarize this?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/30/why-berkman-zoning-change-likely-wont-result-in.html
Quote from: KenFSU on November 30, 2016, 10:30:25 AM
Any JBJ subscribers able to summarize this?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/30/why-berkman-zoning-change-likely-wont-result-in.html
It's a purely speculative article, and fairly short as well. Basically guessing that the rezoning request would be an attempt to "test the waters" but there is no deal in place or imminent. The reasons given are essentially that the demand is not there yet. Astleford is quoted saying downtown hotel occupancy is at 67% ( :o) and you would need to be over 75% along with increasing nightly rates, to be able to consider developing new rooms. He also states that there have been discussions for new hotels in downtown since he joined Visit Jax 4 years ago. Incidentally, they mention that the Westside, which is over 75% occupancy, could see a new hotel in the works.
A 67% occupancy rate isn't good but not totally surprising.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 30, 2016, 11:31:57 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 30, 2016, 10:30:25 AM
Any JBJ subscribers able to summarize this?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/30/why-berkman-zoning-change-likely-wont-result-in.html
It's a purely speculative article, and fairly short as well. Basically guessing that the rezoning request would be an attempt to "test the waters" but there is no deal in place or imminent. The reasons given are essentially that the demand is not there yet. Astleford is quoted saying downtown hotel occupancy is at 67% ( :o) and you would need to be over 75% along with increasing nightly rates, to be able to consider developing new rooms. He also states that there have been discussions for new hotels in downtown since he joined Visit Jax 4 years ago. Incidentally, they mention that the Westside, which is over 75% occupancy, could see a new hotel in the works.
Thanks for the info! Much appreciated.
67% is actually higher than I expected, and above national average.
Might not be high enough to be targeted for growth, but unless ADR is in the gutter, it suggests a healthy market where we're at a good equilibrium between quantity of room-nights demanded and quantity of room-nights supplied.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 30, 2016, 01:46:27 PM
A 67% occupancy rate isn't good but not totally surprising.
Well, I am a little surprised by how high the number reportedly is...
Quote from: KenFSU on November 30, 2016, 02:06:38 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 30, 2016, 11:31:57 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 30, 2016, 10:30:25 AM
Any JBJ subscribers able to summarize this?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/30/why-berkman-zoning-change-likely-wont-result-in.html
It's a purely speculative article, and fairly short as well. Basically guessing that the rezoning request would be an attempt to "test the waters" but there is no deal in place or imminent. The reasons given are essentially that the demand is not there yet. Astleford is quoted saying downtown hotel occupancy is at 67% ( :o) and you would need to be over 75% along with increasing nightly rates, to be able to consider developing new rooms. He also states that there have been discussions for new hotels in downtown since he joined Visit Jax 4 years ago. Incidentally, they mention that the Westside, which is over 75% occupancy, could see a new hotel in the works.
Thanks for the info! Much appreciated.
67% is actually higher than I expected, and above national average.
Might not be high enough to be targeted for growth, but unless ADR is in the gutter, it suggests a healthy market where we're at a good equilibrium between quantity of room-nights demanded and quantity of room-nights supplied.
Yeah, that is my understanding as well. 67% is not great but not terrible by any means. Areas with 75-80% should definitely expect growth in rooms. That said, a lot depend on the RATE too. If they are getting that occupancy with a decent rate that is one thing, but if the rate is low, that is another situation.
I guess I was unfairly comparing it with the rest of Florida's major cities, since Florida's hospitality numbers tend to be better than the national averages. Just did a little digging. DT Miami's is 83.9% (2016) and Orlando's is 80.1% (2016). Tampa's 68.8% (2014) was closer to Jax's. According to a recent TB Biz Journal article, DT Tampa's is around 83% (2016).
Was just doing a little more research on the health of our downtown hotel scene.
Here's where we stand vs. national average.
(https://s13.postimg.org/z3uj5zlxj/Jax.png)
Occupancy is very slightly above national average, and ADR (average daily rate) and revpar (revenue per available room) are below.
Overall, these numbers aren't nearly as bad as I would have thought considering how anemic our downtown can be, and I would make an educated guess that the lower ADR (and subsequently, lower revpar) is more a reflection of lower costs for all housing in Jacksonville relative national average than it is a reflection of rates being depressed by excess supply or limited demand.
(https://s15.postimg.org/oq8jcp5bf/COL.png)
To me, these numbers suggest that an additional hotel may not be needed at the moment, but as long as it was differentiated by location, class, or type, it wouldn't automatically put other hotels out of business or massively depress rates either.
Let's do a little math, just as a fun exercise.
We've got 2,372 hotel rooms currently in downtown Jacksonville, per the most recent DVI report.
If 67% of those rooms are occupied on any given night, that puts market demand at roughly 1,600 rooms per night in downtown Jacksonville.
The best benchmarks that I can find put break-even occupancy at 55.5% for the average hotel, though these numbers can obviously vary wildly based on other variables (ADR, property type, operating expenses, debt service, etc.). But, just for the purpose of the exercise, let's use 55.5% as a rule of thumb for sustainability.
Assuming a perfect vacuum of unicorns and rainbows where demand remains perfectly unchanged and every hotel performs equally, this suggests that downtown Jacksonville could currently absorb another 513 hotel rooms without putting anyone under. Cannibalization would surely take place, but everyone should survive.
A few things this could tell us, heavily qualified by the fact that we're talking broad generalizations here (read: talking out of our ass), not performing any type of legit market research:
1) In the absence of those with vested interests in downtown Jacksonville (Khan, Rummell, Adkins, and the owners of Berkman 2), I doubt many outside investors are chomping at the bit to develop hotel properties in our urban core. As noted above, 70-75% occupancy tends to be when developers start to take note. We do have steadily increasing ADRs in our favor, but they're still low.
2) All things held constant, our urban market can't possibly absorb every one of the hotel projects that we've heard about in the last 12 months. The up to 350 rooms proposed by Khan, plus the 200 proposed for the District, plus the 131 proposed by Adkins at the Trio, plus 206 rooms at a phantom Berkman 2 hotel (assuming one-to-one with condos), would cannibalize the shit out of existing hotels and drive average occupancy down to a disastrous 46% if all were to magically come on line.
3) That said, there's certainly plenty of reason to expect the quantity demanded of hotel rooms in downtown Jacksonville to pick up in the next few years. Daily's Place will bring dozens of new events to the downtown core each year. The new convention center/conference space that Khan has been discussing should bring more visitors to town. The District should break ground next year. New additions to our medical centers should draw more out-of-towners. Who knows what will happen with the Shipyards or Met Park. Barring economic collapse, that existing market demand of 1,600 rooms per night should continue to climb as development comes on board.
4) That said, we'd need close to 2,100 rooms per night booked (+31%) to get back to even a 60% occupancy rate if all those extra rooms were to suddenly flood the market.
5) To me, the scenario with the best chance of success in the next couple of years would be the addition of a 300-room luxury hotel by Shad Khan's group, and the addition of the historic 113-room boutique hotel at the Trio by Adkins (an optimist, I know). Assuming a ten percent bump in market demand as the result of development, these rooms could be absorbed while still maintaining a healthy 63% occupancy rate for downtown Jacksonville. Plus, both offerings would be differentiated from what currently exists. Khan's hotel would bring cache and luxury, and a historic boutique hotel would bring hipster cool. I don't see anything about Berkman II, if finished, that would stand out from the pack, nor do I think the market is going to be there to warrant a 200-room hotel with Phase I of the District.
Anyway, again, pure speculation, but interesting that so many people are floating hotel ideas as of late.
Nice analysis Ken. Thanks for that!
Couple reactions:
1) You forgot IHG's Even Hotel proposed for Brooklyn adjacent to 220 Riverside
2) Where did you get the numbers for DT Jax and hotels Nationwide, and is that statistic nationwide for hotels within CBDs or is it all hotels across the country?
Quote from: KenFSU on November 30, 2016, 11:23:07 PM
Was just doing a little more research on the health of our downtown hotel scene.
Here's where we stand vs. national average.
(https://s13.postimg.org/z3uj5zlxj/Jax.png)
Occupancy is very slightly above national average, and ADR (average daily rate) and revpar (revenue per available room) are below.
Overall, these numbers aren't nearly as bad as I would have thought considering how anemic our downtown can be, and I would make an educated guess that the lower ADR (and subsequently, lower revpar) is more a reflection of lower costs for all housing in Jacksonville relative national average than it is a reflection of rates being depressed by excess supply or limited demand.
(https://s15.postimg.org/oq8jcp5bf/COL.png)
To me, these numbers suggest that an additional hotel may not be needed at the moment, but as long as it was differentiated by location, class, or type, it wouldn't automatically put other hotels out of business or massively depress rates either.
Let's do a little math, just as a fun exercise.
We've got 2,372 hotel rooms currently in downtown Jacksonville, per the most recent DVI report.
If 67% of those rooms are occupied on any given night, that puts market demand at roughly 1,600 rooms per night in downtown Jacksonville.
The best benchmarks that I can find put break-even occupancy at 55.5% for the average hotel, though these numbers can obviously vary wildly based on other variables (ADR, property type, operating expenses, debt service, etc.). But, just for the purpose of the exercise, let's use 55.5% as a rule of thumb for sustainability.
Assuming a perfect vacuum of unicorns and rainbows where demand remains perfectly unchanged and every hotel performs equally, this suggests that downtown Jacksonville could currently absorb another 513 hotel rooms without putting anyone under. Cannibalization would surely take place, but everyone should survive.
A few things this could tell us, heavily qualified by the fact that we're talking broad generalizations here (read: talking out of our ass), not performing any type of legit market research:
1) In the absence of those with vested interests in downtown Jacksonville (Khan, Rummell, Adkins, and the owners of Berkman 2), I doubt many outside investors are chomping at the bit to develop hotel properties in our urban core. As noted above, 70-75% occupancy tends to be when developers start to take note. We do have steadily increasing ADRs in our favor, but they're still low.
2) All things held constant, our urban market can't possibly absorb every one of the hotel projects that we've heard about in the last 12 months. The up to 350 rooms proposed by Khan, plus the 200 proposed for the District, plus the 131 proposed by Adkins at the Trio, plus 206 rooms at a phantom Berkman 2 hotel (assuming one-to-one with condos), would cannibalize the shit out of existing hotels and drive average occupancy down to a disastrous 46% if all were to magically come on line.
3) That said, there's certainly plenty of reason to expect the quantity demanded of hotel rooms in downtown Jacksonville to pick up in the next few years. Daily's Place will bring dozens of new events to the downtown core each year. The new convention center/conference space that Khan has been discussing should bring more visitors to town. The District should break ground next year. New additions to our medical centers should draw more out-of-towners. Who knows what will happen with the Shipyards or Met Park. Barring economic collapse, that existing market demand of 1,600 rooms per night should continue to climb as development comes on board.
4) That said, we'd need close to 2,100 rooms per night booked (+31%) to get back to even a 60% occupancy rate if all those extra rooms were to suddenly flood the market.
5) To me, the scenario with the best chance of success in the next couple of years would be the addition of a 300-room luxury hotel by Shad Khan's group, and the addition of the historic 113-room boutique hotel at the Trio by Adkins (an optimist, I know). Assuming a ten percent bump in market demand as the result of development, these rooms could be absorbed while still maintaining a healthy 63% occupancy rate for downtown Jacksonville. Plus, both offerings would be differentiated from what currently exists. Khan's hotel would bring cache and luxury, and a historic boutique hotel would bring hipster cool. I don't see anything about Berkman II, if finished, that would stand out from the pack, nor do I think the market is going to be there to warrant a 200-room hotel with Phase I of the District.
Anyway, again, pure speculation, but interesting that so many people are floating hotel ideas as of late.
I can't see the images but maybe it is just me. Is there a breakdown between the Northbank and the Southbank on the occupancy and room rates?
I think the convention center discussion plays into this, though you can't build hotels in anticipation of it. If we can get this going, it dramatically changes the landscape downtown.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 01, 2016, 12:10:12 AM
Nice analysis Ken. Thanks for that!
Couple reactions:
1) You forgot IHG's Even Hotel proposed for Brooklyn adjacent to 220 Riverside
2) Where did you get the numbers for DT Jax and hotels Nationwide, and is that statistic nationwide for hotels within CBDs or is it all hotels across the country?
Is this still moving forward? What about 200 riverside? I have heard from residents that rents at 220 have fallen dramatically. Do the economics still make sense for them to build 200?
I believe the Even Hotel project has died.
CZ, I don't think it was ever even to the point of "moving forward" (I don't have any firsthand knowledge of that project) but it was proposed and in my mind as valid as the other proposed hotel projects that Ken listed.
Quote from: Steve on December 01, 2016, 08:47:36 AM
I think the convention center discussion plays into this, though you can't build hotels in anticipation of it. If we can get this going, it dramatically changes the landscape downtown.
Agreed 100% here. With more people in downtown over night, then we would need more hotel rooms. See Tampa.
Anybody else see the giant blue sash flying from one of the top floors of Berkman 2 on game day? Nice to know that the residents of the shell of the building have a little panache.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 29, 2016, 05:08:06 PM
Florida Baptist is way too small and has no parking. If they'd consider leasing, One Enterprise Center is still half empty but parking would still be an issue. If JEA still wants to move, their building has more than enough space and its own parking garage. However, maintenance could be an issue since that's why JEA is considering leaving.
Quite frankly, I can't think of an existing building in the Northbank that would meet Vitti's criteria. That criteria pretty much drives them to edge spots like LaVilla, Hansontown, Brooklyn or North San Marco near the Kings Avenue garage. With that said, they should partner up with JTA. JTA has tons of land for infill near adjacent Skyway stations and lots of underutilized parking. Replace a parking lot with a new urban building to fit their needs and utilize the Skyway and its associated lots for their parking needs.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 29, 2016, 05:02:24 PM
That building is better for tax purposes, but still not great for bumping up density in the core. What about the free Mason building behind the courthouse... Is that currently occupied?
It's occupied by the Grand Lodge. At one point they were trying to lease the street level retail spots but from what I understand, they ran into code issues.
In the future, if and when JEA builds a new complex (hopefully down the street, maybe just the JEA Customer Center could be used by DCPS and an agreement for parking either with the current JEA Garage, City Garage, or even First Baptist's garages? The Customer Center looks similarly sized to their current space needs. Also, being so close to City Hall and Ed Ball Building could help with reusing meeting space, etc., that may be underutilized. Overall, I think they could get a deal on that building from JEA in a few years.