What does this mena to Jacksonville, aren't we building a new coal plant? What will happen to the money spent? What will happen to our bills? What will happen to the jobs in Jacksonville associated with this?
http://www.wvrecord.com/news/215679-coal-official-calls-obama-comments-unbelievable
Coal official calls Obama comments 'unbelievable'
You Tube sound track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdi4onAQBWQ
I was the first to call for a 100 percent auction on the cap and trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases emitted would be charged to the polluter," Obama continued. "That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted down caps that are being placed, imposed every year.
"So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."
This was a quote taken out of context. The topic discussed as about dirty coal vs. clean coal technology.
Btw, big industrial polluters should be charged for their negative impact on the natural environment. Perhaps this will get them to change their ways. Imagine if JEA and the pulp mills cared a little more about our local waterways? There's a good chance the river would not be having bouts with turning into a green stinking mess.
As for Jax, make it a clean coal power plant or look at more environmentally friendly ways to produce energy. All of these options stimulate jobs.
I agree that we need to be more concerned with what is happening in our environment, but I also am concerned about my sky high JEA bills already. Why can;t the government step in and make solar power more affordable? I would love to "solarize" my houses, but at 120K a pop I just can't afford it. To take away a viable affordable option, without an affordable viable alternative seems a little crazy to me. (But I will admit I am not expert in coal vs. clean coal)
JEA's proposed plant is natural gas, not coal. Much cleaner, however, much more expensive. I don't see power rates going down anytime soon. IMO, The only way our rates will go down is if the feds move forward with nuclear power or some serious incentives for user-based solar.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 03, 2008, 09:30:04 AM
This was a quote taken out of context. The topic discussed as about dirty coal vs. clean coal technology.
Btw, big industrial polluters should be charged for their negative impact on the natural environment. Perhaps this will get them to change their ways. Imagine if JEA and the pulp mills cared a little more about our local waterways? There's a good chance the river would not be having bouts with turning into a green stinking mess.
As for Jax, make it a clean coal power plant or look at more environmentally friendly ways to produce energy. All of these options stimulate jobs.
Are there any pulp mills left in jacksonville?
While dirty industrial processes may be looked at as "affordable" for specific products, their poisonous byproducts negate that affordability if we have to clean up after the mess or our health is impacted by it.
At this point alternative energy sources and the environment have not become a priority of the government. Obama promises change if he wins, but who knows if he'll be able to pull it off? However, I must say I have not heard anyone talking about taking away viable "affordable" options without having viable feasible solutions already in place. I agree, that sounds pretty crazy if that's the plan.
Quote from: civil42806 on November 03, 2008, 10:09:21 AMAre there any pulp mills left in jacksonville?
There's one off Heckscher Drive. There's also a large mill in Palatka and two in Nassau County.
Thanks for the information Lake and Jason, like I said I ma not real up to speed on the differences, and for some reason I thought the new plant JEA was building was coal, at least I saw a bunch of pics of coal and mining in the JEA thread so maybe that is why I thought it was coal ;)
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 03, 2008, 09:49:36 AM
I agree that we need to be more concerned with what is happening in our environment, but I also am concerned about my sky high JEA bills already. Why can;t the government step in and make solar power more affordable? I would love to "solarize" my houses, but at 120K a pop I just can't afford it. To take away a viable affordable option, without an affordable viable alternative seems a little crazy to me. (But I will admit I am not expert in coal vs. clean coal)
Solar water heater runs about $4500 and whole house could be done for about 25-30K depending on size.
I don't know where you get 120K unless you own Playboy mansion.
http://www.jea.com/community/conservcenter/business/solar.asp
I have priced it, and for of the grid, a small house starts at 60K.
If you pay attention to the things that are wasting electricity in your house you could probably cut your electric bill significantly.
Quote from: Jason on November 03, 2008, 10:05:33 AM
JEA's proposed plant is natural gas, not coal. Much cleaner, however, much more expensive. I don't see power rates going down anytime soon. IMO, The only way our rates will go down is if the feds move forward with nuclear power or some serious incentives for user-based solar.
good information and i agree with your analysis of the future and prospective solutions Jason (well - along with wind-power as well)
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 03, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
I have priced it, and for of the grid, a small house starts at 60K.
Which would take about twenty years to recoup the cost.
I could see spending $12k-$15k---> but no way would I spend $60k.
Quote from: Driven1 on November 03, 2008, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 03, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
I have priced it, and for of the grid, a small house starts at 60K.
Which would take about twenty years to recoup the cost.
I could see spending $12k-$15k---> but no way would I spend $60k.
Here ya go UTG and Driven... Give it a shot! There are many variables...
http://findsolar.com/index.php?page=rightforme
This is the link to the entire thread...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2913.0.html
Solar Radiance: 4.99 kWh/sq m/day
Avg. Monthly Usage: 1,862 kWh/month
System Size: 15.48 kW
Roof Size: 1,548 sq ft
Estimated Cost: $139,317.82
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 03, 2008, 01:20:31 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on November 03, 2008, 01:13:08 PM
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 03, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
I have priced it, and for of the grid, a small house starts at 60K.
Which would take about twenty years to recoup the cost.
I could see spending $12k-$15k---> but no way would I spend $60k.
Here ya go UTG and Driven... Give it a shot! There are many variables...
http://findsolar.com/index.php?page=rightforme
OMG this is the highest estimate yet!!!
Solar Power CalculatorSystem Specifications
Solar Radiance: Solar radiance (insolation) is the amount of
solar energy received on a given surface area
in a given time. Commonly expressed in
kilowatt-hours per square meter per day
(kWh/sq m/day). This measurement varies based
on weather and latitude of the given location. 4.99 kWh/sq m/day
Avg. Monthly Usage: This is the amount of electricity you consume
on average every month. It is either determined
by your input or approximated by your electricity
bill divided by the cost per kilowatt hour in your
area ($0.1128/kWh). 4,876 kWh/month
System Size: This approximation is for a system to produce
enough electricity to offset 50% of your yearly
electricity usage. It is determined by taking your
average daily electrical usage, and dividing that
by your (solar radiance x 80%). The 80% factor is
necessary in order to approximate for the inherit
inefficiencies in solar power systems (95% inverter
inefficiency x 89% weather impact on efficiency x 95%
inefficiency due to soiling, utility, and module
inefficiencies). 20.27 kW
Roof Size: Approximate roof size needed to accomodate
your solar power system can be deteremined
by taking the size of the system and
dividing by 10 to get the square footage
(10 watts/sq ft). 2,027 sq ft
Estimated Cost: The approximate cost is an estimation based
on a price of $9/watt. This is the average
rate, including parts and installation,
for systems above 2kW. $182,440.00
Incentives
Incentives for Jacksonville, FL
Federal Incentives
Tax Credit: 30% ($2,000.00 max)
State Incentives
Sales Tax: Exempt
Rebate: $4.00/W DC ($20,000.00 max)
Savings
Estimated Cost: The approximate cost is an estimation based
on a price of $9/watt. This is the average
rate, including parts and installation,
for systems above 2kW. $182,440.00
Post Incentive Cost: The post incentive cost is an estimation based
on the available credits/rebates for your area.
This may include kWh production incentives for up
to 25 years if applicable in your area. This
provides an approximation of the local/state
incentives, and should only be used as an
approximation. $160,440.00
Avg. Monthly Savings: $342.37
25 Year Savings: The 25 year savings is based on the amount
of electricity cost you save over a 25 year
period assuming a yearly 4% increase in
utility rates. $171,099.63
25 Year ROI: 106.64%
Break Even: 23.99 years
:D But think of all that free juice in 24 years... :D
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 03, 2008, 01:31:00 PM
:D But think of all that free juice in 24 years... :D
It did say something about saving 221 trees ;)
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 03, 2008, 12:42:04 PM
I have priced it, and for of the grid, a small house starts at 60K.
My house to be off the grid is a cost of ~65K.
I have my AC set to 75F during summer, 68F during winter.
House is built in 2003.
I have every lightbulb replaced with a cfl.
I have two computers running full time (work related stuff and a server), both with E85 Power Supplies (both run over 85% efficiency).
My average electric use is 1200Kwh a month. Down from 1800 2 years ago.
My costs are just too prohibitive right now to justify Solar.
I do plan on supplementing later next year though, although I have informed my wife that the next house we will buy will be entirely solar powered.
That doesn't include savings and incentives,also you might be able to shop around with other dealers to find better price.
This is where government could step in to find a massive deals for entire cities or parts of city,to lower cost.
Prices of homes went up past 10 years more then it cost to get solar system,imagine large discounts and putting solar on almost every house.You can add as part of house under mortgage,you are paying for house 30 years so why not add solar system as part of house.Eventually saving enviroment and money.
Got to think BIG.
That is my plan, the next house will have solar financed into it. Making my mortgage payment go up a couple of hundred, but completely offset by the no electric payment.
To retro just now though, I have to finance a 45K second mortgage, and my 35K student loans are more pressing.
Quote from: Bostech on November 03, 2008, 01:42:33 PM
That doesn't include savings and incentives,also you might be able to shop around with other dealers to find better price.
This is where government could step in to find a massive deals for entire cities or parts of city,to lower cost.
Prices of homes went up past 10 years more then it cost to get solar system,imagine large discounts and putting solar on almost every house.You can add as part of house under mortgage,you are paying for house 30 years so why not add solar system as part of house.Eventually saving enviroment and money.
Got to think BIG.
I almost can;t believe I am saying this.... but I am on the same page with you BOS. I would LOVE to go solar, I have doen most of the stuff jandar has mentioned, my issue is more around the fact that I have such an old house, without replacing all the windows and calking everything shut I have cut down as much as I can, without sweating myself to death (and everyone else in the house too) in the summer. I wish there was a way to make solar more affordable, but as long as the big power companies are around it is fruitless >:(
Uptowngirl and Bos agreeing on something? :o Is it snowing outside?
I alredy predicted it will snow this year.
You can always do what people in upstate NY do to save on energy and warm house...cover your windonws with plastic foil and put towels under doors.
Here's an article about the original story:
QuotePalin knocks Obama over months-old coal comments
November 2, 2008
Posted: 05:48 PM ET
MARIETTA, Ohio (CNN) â€" Campaigning in coal country just two days before the presidential election, Sarah Palin is highlighting an interview Barack Obama gave to the San Francisco Chronicle in January in which the Democrat suggested coal plants would be bankrupted by his cap-and-trade proposal.
Audio of Obama’s comments began bubbling up on major conservative blogs over the last 24 hours, and Palin wondered why voters were only now hearing about the remarks. The insinuation that the Chronicle had been hiding the coal comments from the public brought about shouts of “Liberal media!†from the crowd.
“Why is the audio tape just now surfacing?,†Palin asked. “This interview was given to San Francisco folks many, many months ago. You should have known about this, so that you would have better decision-making information as you go into the voting booth.â€
Contrary to her attempts to portray a media cover-up, audio and video recordings of Obama’s January 17 sit-down with the Chronicle editorial board have been freely available online for more than nine months.
In the interview, Obama said that his “aggressive†cap-and-trade plan would charge polluters for every unit of carbon or greenhouse gas they emit, a plan that would render polluting coal plants financially unviable.
“So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can,†he said. “It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted.â€
In the interview, Obama also made the case for alternative energy sources, adding that he does not believe coal production will be eliminated, and that he supports carbon capture and sequestration technologies.
John McCain also supports a market-based cap-and-trade proposal to reduce carbon emissions.
Regardless, Palin sought to use Obama’s words against him in a part of the country where coal has long been king.
“He said that, sure, if the industry wants to build coal-fired power plants, then they can go ahead and try, he says, but they can do it only in a way that will bankrupt the coal industry, and he's comfortable letting that happen.â€
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/11/02/palin-knocks-obama-over-months-old-coal-comments/
Great work Jandar. I'm in the process of converting over to CLFs completely. As each incandescent burns out I replace with a CFL. My power consumption runs about 1,312kwh average versus the 1524kwh it used to run. I've done other things to help with consumption as well. The kicker is that the recent cost increases have negated any savings I would have seen. My bill is pretty much the same as it was a year ago despite the fact that I'm now using less power. Go figure!
IMO, user base solar power (given proper incentives) is the way of the future. Utility generated solar power is super expensive and requires massive amounts of land per KW produced. The consumer typically has the roof area necessary for enough solar panels to produce their own power, unless the home or buisness has a lot of tree cover. Frankly, the average suburban home was built in the middle of cleared wetlands and has little to no tree canopy, therefore allowing solar panel to be installed on the roof. The systems just need to be incentivised to allow the consumer the ability to afford it.
The other problem with the cost of the system is the batteries. Typically, a home would share a connection with a solar system and the power company. Any excess power the home generates would back feed the power grid and the utility would buy back the power, relieving the need for costly batteries. In theory, during the day the home would supply enough excess power to spin the meter backwards enough that during the night the utility would essentially give it back. With that system properly working, your power bill would esentially be zero. The problem is that when the power grid goes down (an outage) the solar system would still be feeding power into the grid thereby causing potential danger to the linemen trying to restore system power. Because of that danger, the utilities require a special relay to be buit in the the home based system that will disconnect the solar power to the home as well. I know, what a crock! IMO, the easy solution is for different unit to have the smarts to know that when the gird is down, it will not be allowed to feed power into it.
My house is probably 90% CFL. I am also saving electricity by wrapping the hot water heater(old comforter) and turning off the hot water during the day when no one is home or when away on the weekend. Try it... you will be surprised! Of course you will be even more surprised if you forget to turn it back on and hop into a cold shower... :D
Where does everyone recycle CFL bulbs? I have two of them that barely lasted a year. Pretty expensive since they were supposed to last longer than conventional...
Home Depot
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/24/business/24recycling.html
Anyone else making the switch to CFLs?
Quote from: Jason on November 04, 2008, 05:02:11 PM
Anyone else making the switch to CFLs?
they say that in order to get the most usage and lifespan out of them, you should replace them in places where you use lights for long (15+ minutes) stretches at a time. Short of cooking in the kitchen, I don't have a whole bunch of lights on in my house ever. Certainly not for 20- or more-minute long stretches. OK... maybe the master and guest bathrooms?
Replacing bulbs in ten light sockets probably wouldn't amount to much of a savings on my overall utilities bill, considering I've got Energy Star-compliant everything, practically.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 03, 2008, 02:33:53 PM
I am also saving electricity by wrapping the hot water heater(old comforter) and turning off the hot water during the day when no one is home or when away on the weekend.
I don't know that I have the wherewithall to turn my hot water heater on and off everyday, but does wrapping up the tank really amount to noticeable savings? Is it safe with a regular comforter or should I look into getting a thermal blanket? My heater/tank is less than 2 years old...
Excessive switching will reduce the lifespan of a CFL which is one of the negatives.
My power consumption savings (as best as I can calculate) have dropped roughly about 90-100KWH per month by switching to CFLs on almost all of my light fixtures. The other 100KWH I've been able to shed is by running the AC less, unplugging the plasma tv at night/when away, and running less hot water. Also, all of my appliances are enrgy star, like yours.
Quote from: Jason on November 04, 2008, 07:03:41 PM
Excessive switching will reduce the lifespan of a CFL which is one of the negatives.
My power consumption savings (as best as I can calculate) have dropped roughly about 90-100KWH per month by switching to CFLs on almost all of my light fixtures. The other 100KWH I've been able to shed is by running the AC less, unplugging the plasma tv at night/when away, and running less hot water. Also, all of my appliances are enrgy star, like yours.
You ahve to unplug the plasma not just turn it off?
HOLY $#%?!!!
We still use coal plants?
WTF!?!?!?
Seriously?
CFL's will be the next major environmental disaster. Just after this one
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/unregulated/mtbe.html
Everyone talks about how if you break one its not a big deal, JUST DONT VACCUM!!!!! But the problem is we don't just have one light bulb in your house. You have multiple ones, if you don't have kids it may not be a problem. But what if after 10 or 15 years there have been multiple ones broken. Or the very likely hood that people don't dispose of them properly, which is very likely, so we have landfills full of these things. The idea that everyone will adjust there behaviour, as far as turning lights on and off after the right amount of time is a joke. People just don't adjust there behaviour all that easy.
If your grandkids want a future career, mercury contamination clean up is the one for them or the building inspector that tries to figure out if the old house is contaminated
Anyone knocking the coal industry hasn't studied the rocks. Anthracite coal, found in 7 BILLION short tons in PA, MD as well as huge reserves in Wales, Colombia and Ukraine, all burns clean. In fact anthracite burns as clean as fuel oil and gas.
Someone simply needs to educate our baby President elect on the joys of good coal v the bad stuff. Even so the so-called dirty coal can run through secondary burners and scrubbers and come out about where anthracite would score. In the old days the famous Vaudeville star, Miss Phoebe Snow, who always dressed in white, would only travel via railroad of Anthracite, because there were NO CINDERS to soil her dresses. The Lackawanna Railroad latched onto her as a famous logo, and before Amtrak in 1971, the final NEW YORK-CHICAGO "Phoebe Snow" streamliner train made it's last run before Amtrak gave it the axe. Memories of Anthracite, an industry we have overlooked, for the cheap open pits of Wyoming Powder River Coal.
In Colombia, where we still have a fleet of retired (but servicable) steam locomotives of US make, I have gotten lots of cinders in my eyes from dirty GE and ALCO diesels. But never one from our coal burner "toys" which we haul out on Christmas and special occasions. ANTHRACITE!
You can also spell this "C O L O M B I A = KEYSTONE = JAXPORT = ANTHRACITE..." I'm cheering Keystone!
Obama? Simply sign an ANTHRACITE ACT.
OCKLAWAHA
"Clean coal" is a lie the coal producers made up!
Check out the video link for THE COAL TRUTH.
http://think.mtv.com/044FDFFFF00989EAE0017009951C7/ (http://think.mtv.com/044FDFFFF00989EAE0017009951C7/)
Sorry but you'll have to do better then that post to convince me.
1. Most of the video is about strip mines and the after effects in Alabama. Alabama could pass a land restoration bill such as many states have requiring these mines to reshape and reforest the land.
2. Cracked foundations? Water pollution? NIMBY syndrome. If you locate near one of these mines, don't cry when the mine effects you. A large mine of this type isn't in and out in 5 months but more like 10-50 years.
Who approved the mine upstream from the water resources? DUH? Doesn't anybody think? Again that's not the coals fault.
3. The only comment on combustion that was made, was with regards to current plants and local coal. Neither would be the case if Clean Coal Technology was put into place. You hear the UMWA man say it brings good union jobs, and the Vanderbilt University has developed clean combustion. Then the video again goes back to the cry baby in the boat talking about anything but combustion.
4. Anthracite Coal is very special (as a type of mined product) it is found in very few locations on earth. The USA (only in PA-MD) - COLOMBIA - UKRAINE. The video misses this subject completely, but then the Alabama boys wouldn't know about it. The video COMPLETELY AVOIDS THIS SUBJECT - anthracite.
5. I've run with anthracite many times (I'm the resident rail planner and have worked in COLOMBIA) on our historic steam engines. Not a cinder, not a speck, and look mom - no smoke (good fireman).
I too am an environmentalist, but not at the cost of America and human lives.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: uptowngirl on November 04, 2008, 07:44:06 PM
You ahve to unplug the plasma not just turn it off?
Yes, because the tv still draws power even when it is turned off. Many appliances and electronic devices are guilty of this. Its called "ghost power".
Anthracite is a great and clean substitute for traditional coal, however, mining it is still devastating to the natural environment and it is still coal, therefore a polutant when burned. I'm not saying it should be outlawed tomorrow, I'm saying coal technology should be systematically phased out and replaced with cleaner technology such as nuclear, wind, solar, tidal, etc.
QuoteI too am an environmentalist, but not at the cost of America and human lives.
I couldn't agree with you more.
I'm not sure if many people on the forum check out vice.tv, it's an offshoot of vice magazine. Anyways, I watched the video series Toxic West Virginia about mountain top removal. Basically they remove mountain tops to extract coal from deposits under the mountain instead of drilling.
Be warned though, vice.tv has some very racy videos.
http://www.vbs.tv/video.php?id=494918454
Here is a post I made in another thread on the devastation of coal mining...
read the other thread here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,3388.15.html
QuoteAerial of open-pit coal mine in Venezuela.
(http://energy.er.usgs.gov/images/organic_petrology/mine_aerial.jpg)
Not sure where this one is
(http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/6/65/Oil_sands_open_pit_mining.jpg)
Aerial of natural gas facility....
Offshore
(http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/ap/my60102162207.hmedium.jpg)
Onshore
(http://www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/oil-gas/Petroleum/projects/EP/ImprovedRec/Fig14941Strata_3.jpg)
You be the judge of the impact comparisons.....
Just for fun... the inside of a coal storage dome. JEA's are MUCH larger.
(http://www.ecofriend.org/images/coal-is-mixed-in-a-coal-mix-hall-at-the-prosper-ii-mine-in-bottrop-germany-january-30-2007_9.jpg)
Although JEA and other utilities are doing great things with clean coal technology and eleminating as much polution as possible, coal-fired power plants are not the future and need to be phased out.
Quote from: Doctor_K on November 04, 2008, 05:07:23 PM
Quote from: Jason on November 04, 2008, 05:02:11 PM
Anyone else making the switch to CFLs?
they say that in order to get the most usage and lifespan out of them, you should replace them in places where you use lights for long (15+ minutes) stretches at a time. Short of cooking in the kitchen, I don't have a whole bunch of lights on in my house ever. Certainly not for 20- or more-minute long stretches. OK... maybe the master and guest bathrooms?
Replacing bulbs in ten light sockets probably wouldn't amount to much of a savings on my overall utilities bill, considering I've got Energy Star-compliant everything, practically.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on November 03, 2008, 02:33:53 PM
I am also saving electricity by wrapping the hot water heater(old comforter) and turning off the hot water during the day when no one is home or when away on the weekend.
I don't know that I have the wherewithall to turn my hot water heater on and off everyday, but does wrapping up the tank really amount to noticeable savings? Is it safe with a regular comforter or should I look into getting a thermal blanket? My heater/tank is less than 2 years old...
Usually it is a single circuit breaker on the main circuit panel. I marked it with bright blue tape so it is easily seen. With my water heater off all day and wrapped when I come home at 6 pm flip the breaker to on... I have plenty of hot water in 20 minutes. As for safety... I probably would not wrap as I have if you have a gas water heater due to the flame. I have electric and all is self contained. Hot water heaters can be 30-35% of your entire bill... insulate it and turn it off while away or at work and you will save alot... :)
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/tyne/content/images/2008/08/05/restored_horton_grange_470x315.jpg)
Horton-Grange Mine in UK, restored with a lake teaming with fish.
(http://www.geocities.com/almadenqs/BulmorePark_3-11-01.JPG)
Meanwhile back home, Bulmore Park mine - restored by Mr. Bulmore.
This doesn't have to be a total abandonment of coal tech - that would be insane if we can burn it clean. Certainly anthracite doesn't pollute any more when burned then fuel oil or gas fired plants do. America is rich in coal, it should be up to the states to get these mines restored like the two above. Anything short of full restoration is not acceptable. States that have ridgid rules on these things (Like California) require that the mines are worked in a cut and cover system, call it restore on the go. Works for me - I love the smell of coal smoke (it's sweet). BTW anthracite also can be coked for steel production, ever wonder why "American Made" - "Britt" or "German" tools are so superior? Why they don't break? TOP NOTCH COKE FROM ANTHRACITE. Worlds best steel. Trust me, I do railroads, you WANT American rolled rail.
OCKLAWAHA