It looks like Las Vegas Sands may be setting their sights on Jacksonville for a resort-casino
QuoteA spokesperson said the company was "contemplating various options with no intention to violate the recently passed Compact/revenue sharing agreement" with the Seminole Tribe of Florida.
Documents obtained by Florida Politics show the political committee, Florida Voters in Charge, has two pitches for the ballot that both point to Jacksonville as the new target for a resort-casino.
One proposed amendment would authorize up to three existing cardroom license holders to offer full-fledged casino gaming if they're located at least 130 miles away from tribal lands and the owners agree to spend no less than $250 million on development and construction costs.
The other proposal would allow for up to three new casinos in the state. The gambling licenses, which would be put up for competitive bid, would require the new facilities to be located at least 100 miles away from tribal lands. Applicants would also have to show they would spend at least $500 million on development and construction.
...
No matter which option Las Vegas Sands picks, the only major metro that ticks all the boxes and would be financially viable for such an investment is Jacksonville.
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/441083-las-vegas-sands-looks-to-bring-casino-gambling-to-jacksonville/
Makes sense. About half of the cities with an NFL team have a casino within 1 mile of their stadium. If Jax wants to build up downtown and attract more people a casino would definitely do it. Although I'm not a casino person I think it would be great to have one downtown. Anything to give people a reason to visit / stay helps at this point.
PLEASE
Bring it on.
Could this be the secretive Fairgrounds plan?
I'm for it and please put it downtown, Sports District, etc.
100% needs to happen, Sports district makes sense
Can you have a casino within 10 blocks of a Baptist church?
Actual gamechanger, both literally and figuratively.
I remember they just finned the one in Pittsburgh when we first moved down here. They also completed the T lie station. Pretty nice place. Not into gambling, but it would be nice none the less.
Just curious, when does the gambling market get saturated? Seems they overbuilt in Atlantic City. Do all casino's automatically thrive?
If it were to be a "resort casino" I can only imagine that at a beach location, not in town.
Do Four Seasons guests like to gamble ;D?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 14, 2021, 10:42:35 PM
Do Four Seasons guests like to gamble ;D?
FWIW, Las Vegas Sands does own a Four Seasons hotel/casino development.
And Vegas Sands was heavily involved in NFL owners meetings when the Raiders move to Las Vegas was being vetted.
So, as one of only a handful of Four Seasons and NFL franchise owners in the world, it's not a stretch to think Khan has crossed paths with Vegas Sands.
Said it above, but the more I think about it, the more The Fairgrounds sticks out as a possible spot, assuming this ever happens. It is downright weird how few people seem to know the specifics of the Fairground discussions that have been taking place since late last year with the Jags. Even people who are normally in the loop. The best I could ever get was that the plan was complimentary, rather than competitive with Lot J and the Four Seasons/Shipyards.
Sure feels like casino could fit that bill.
NPS land swap, FL DEP land swap, breadbox loans, and now a statewide ballot initiative...if this is Jags-connected, never can anyone accuse them of taking the path of least resistance in pursuing their developments.
I'd love to see it happen, but statewide ballots are expensive and unpredictable.
DO. IT.
Just make sure it is part of a real multi entertainment resort.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 14, 2021, 10:42:35 PM
Just curious, when does the gambling market get saturated? Seems they overbuilt in Atlantic City. Do all casino's automatically thrive?
If it were to be a "resort casino" I can only imagine that at a beach location, not in town.
Seminole Hard Rock in FTL/Hollywood is 20 minutes from the beach and the Tampa location is 45 minutes from the beach (10-15 minutes west of downtown). A casino would likely get quite a fight from the Beaches communities. Plus, there are easier opportunities to assemble land and go higher vertically downtown, not to mention the location along I-95. Hard Rock Hollywood is right off the turnpike and Tampa is right off I-4, for instance.
If one comes to the Jax area, downtown is the logical choice, but it's also possible they locate it somewhere else along I-95 where they can easily assemble a large tract of land.
More details courtesy the T-U, including more hints that suggest downtown Jacksonville would be the location.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2021/07/15/las-vegas-sands-prepares-ask-florida-voters-casino-expansion/7971662002/
Might be paywalled, but with the T-U currently offering a six-month digital subscription for $1, no excuse to not sub.
https://www.jacksonville.com/subscribenow?g2i_source=jacksonville.com&g2i_medium=subscribe&g2i_campaign=header&gps-source=CPTILELEFT&tpcc=CPTILELEFT
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 15, 2021, 01:13:02 PM
Might be paywalled, but with the T-U currently offering a six-month digital subscription for $1, no excuse to not sub.
https://www.jacksonville.com/subscribenow?g2i_source=jacksonville.com&g2i_medium=subscribe&g2i_campaign=header&gps-source=CPTILELEFT&tpcc=CPTILELEFT
If you have a public library card, put your card number in and you'll be allowed to read the TU and most of the other major papers for free: http://infoweb.newsbank.com/signin/JacksonvillePublicLibrary/NEWSBANK
QuoteThe proposed amendment would not limit a casino to the current site of a cardroom, but instead says the license-holder could relocate to another site in the same county, provided the move occurs before Dec. 31, 2025.
In addition, the investment in the casino would have to be at least $250 million for a gaming complex that would include not only the casino floor but also related retail, hotel, entertainment, convention, financial and restaurant facilities.
Perfect for downtown and the Sports District.
Gaffney mentioned a site by the airport. Hmmm.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2021/07/16/las-vegas-sands-considering-casino-near-jacksonville-airport-reggie-gaffney-lenny-curry/7981352002/
Quote from: pierre on July 16, 2021, 06:21:12 AM
Gaffney mentioned a site by the airport. Hmmm.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2021/07/16/las-vegas-sands-considering-casino-near-jacksonville-airport-reggie-gaffney-lenny-curry/7981352002/
Disappointing.
A Downtown location makes me a 100% supporter. Anywhere else makes me 100% neutral.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 16, 2021, 09:31:20 AM
A Downtown location makes me a 100% supporter. Anywhere else makes me 100% neutral.
Three sites off the top of my head that could work DT:
Sports Complex
Shipyards
TU Site
There are a couple of things working against downtown.
1. The casino operators don't want anyone leaving the site. They want people spending all of their money on food, drink, and entertainment on the property. A location Downtown provides visitors the opportunity to easily walk to other events, entertainment, restaurants, and bars downtown. Sure, a Downtown location will attract more visitors than a suburban location, but many will come no matter where they put it. Especially with world-class pools and amenities.
2. Even though there is cumulatively a lot of vacant land downtown, assembling one large, contiguous tract is likely a challenge. The Seminole Hard Rock in Hollywood is on 100 acres and the Tampa location is 37 acres (I'm sure they would prefer much larger if constructing this now). The Venetian (operated by Las Vegas Sands) is on 67 acres. A focal point of the hotel will likely be a Vegas/South Florida style pool/beach/bar system, which requires a lot of land.
See picture of the main pool at Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood (there is another huge one not even visble) to get a feel for what would/could be built.
(https://assets.simpleviewcms.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/ftlauderdale/Property-Image-GH-prespective-Day-hi-res-2-2020pl_7670E52D-D424-46F0-BD7F0EED531C6600_3194cdc4-98cd-458e-a48e3a2b985a12fa.jpg)
Quote from: Jagsdrew on July 16, 2021, 09:33:43 AM
Three sites off the top of my head that could work DT:
Sports Complex
Shipyards
TU Site
The more I think about it the more I prefer the TU site... It's highly visible from 4 of the major routes into / through downtown (95, 10, Acosta, Main), it's the perfect size, iconic and historic building, adaptive reuse is always a big win, the office floor plan would be pretty easy to convert to an open floor casino for slots, tables, bars, etc.
If they added additional structures to the site that were more vertical they could be used as a giant billboard (hotel/entertainment/residences). The new skyway station would be across the street and easily walkable under the ramp without interfering with traffic. This would be a benefit to all of the businesses, offices and hotels near Skyway stations as it would be a free convenient way to an entertainment destination and give people a reason to use the transit.
Can I borrow a hundred million bucks? I've got big ideas for a premier entertainment destination that would actually be a game changer. And yes there's room for Fudrucker's :P
If this were to come to fruition, I would expect Jax Business Journal to prognosticate the "perfect" site that eventually becomes THE SITE, a la Dun & Bradstreet HQ.
Quote from: Papa33 on July 16, 2021, 11:21:38 AM
If this were to come to fruition, I would expect Jax Business Journal to prognosticate the "perfect" site that eventually becomes THE SITE, a la Dun & Bradstreet HQ.
If it's in the public realm, you can all but assume Las Vegas Sands already has at least one property under contract. Smart business people typically don't announce/confirm their intentions publicly without having prospective land under contract.
I think the ideal concept for a casino in the core would be something like how the casino in Downtown Cleveland is laid out. Normally a stand alone casino strives to be all-inclusive where gambling, sleeping, eating, drinking, and entertainment are all within their grounds but the one in Cleveland and many of these downtown casinos limit their dining and nightlife options encouraging more people to explore more neighborhood venues.
I know current DT Jax doesn't exactly have that level of gravitas to take advantage of that kind of synergy, another option would be the casino operator sub-leasing space for other entertainment venues available to all ages and would not need anyone to have to step inside the casino itself. Would love to see a potential casino downtown go this route.
How many acres is the Prime Osborn site?
I would love it downtown, but I doubt there is enough space to allow a big complex. Airport area/northside makes sense due to space.
I wonder if Duval is the only candidate. Nassau and St. Johns could also be very appealing for a "resort" style casino and they have the land and more existing tourist oriented infrastructure/focus than Jax, especially in our Downtown area.
Over the years, St. Johns has been often mentioned as a serious candidate for a theme/amusement park so I believe that line of thinking would more likely parallel what a resort casino operator would be looking for. Using St. Augustine's Spanish history as a theme (all casinos today appear to have one) would be a natural too. Add the PGA and World Golf Hall of Fame, Ponte Vedra prestige and beaches and you have a very appealing mix.
And I95 visibility. Everyone heading South is guided around downtown to 295 via GPS.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 16, 2021, 12:03:24 PM
How many acres is the Prime Osborn site?
Prime Osborne is 18.8 and appears to be boxed in with no opportunity to expand it.
TU Site is 12 acres of upland, with potential to acquire CSX's surface lot on the other side of the Acosta and try to make pedestrian connection underneath. This would also require a replacement of the lost surface parking (either on the site or nearby).
Fairgrounds is 13.36, but there is also 10.66 parking parcel to the west across APR Blvd.
The District (Healthy Town) is 22.36 + 4.65 School Board + some nearby JEA tracts.
There are some large industrial tracts at Commodore Point, but cleanup, and land assembly might be difficult.
Quote from: CityLife on July 16, 2021, 10:37:45 AM
There are a couple of things working against downtown.
1. The casino operators don't want anyone leaving the site. They want people spending all of their money on food, drink, and entertainment on the property. A location Downtown provides visitors the opportunity to easily walk to other events, entertainment, restaurants, and bars downtown. Sure, a Downtown location will attract more visitors than a suburban location, but many will come no matter where they put it. Especially with world-class pools and amenities.
2. Even though there is cumulatively a lot of vacant land downtown, assembling one large, contiguous tract is likely a challenge. The Seminole Hard Rock in Hollywood is on 100 acres and the Tampa location is 37 acres (I'm sure they would prefer much larger if constructing this now). The Venetian (operated by Las Vegas Sands) is on 67 acres. A focal point of the hotel will likely be a Vegas/South Florida style pool/beach/bar system, which requires a lot of land.
See picture of the main pool at Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood (there is another huge one not even visble) to get a feel for what would/could be built.
(https://assets.simpleviewcms.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/ftlauderdale/Property-Image-GH-prespective-Day-hi-res-2-2020pl_7670E52D-D424-46F0-BD7F0EED531C6600_3194cdc4-98cd-458e-a48e3a2b985a12fa.jpg)
Downtown Detroit has three casinos and they've done quite well. That downtown is also a lot better off today than it was before the casinos opened. A part of their requirement to open in Detroit is that they had to incorporate existing historic buildings. Totally the opposite of the Seminole Hard Rock example. However, if this thing passes, the city could end up with more than one and they could be in different locations, scales and sizes. For example, Bestbet could partner and/or expand and do something completely different than Las Vegas Sands. Here are a few pictures of Greektown Casino and the area just outside of it.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-tbkZ74D/0/ebfc7393/X2/20210704_115930-X2.jpg)
The casino is in the brick building on the right. It has ground floor retail facing the street. The casino is primarily located on the upper floors.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-TkQV4qb/0/4100f755/X2/20210704_120042-X2.jpg)
The casino is the brick building on the right. A new high rise hotel and parking structure was built on a surface parking lot on an adjacent block. The skywalk connects the hotel/garage to the casino.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-N2PvPrs/0/8540745e/X2/20210704_120229-X2.jpg)
A storefront retail space across the street from the casino that benefits from the extra foot traffic in the vicinity.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-zDpQ7rw/0/c9032143/X2/20210704_120544-X2.jpg)
The side of the new construction hotel and garage, adjacent to a historic church across the street from the casino building, which used to be a factory at one point.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-NRJfdGs/0/4ef2045d/X2/20210704_121025-X2.jpg)
The backside of the casino (new construction), which is served by a peoplemover stop. Across the street are additional older buildings that have been repurposed to include street retail and dining.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-zrKghRv/0/7190fa5a/X2/20210707_200019-X2.jpg)
The casino building is on the right. The first two pictures were captured in the morning when foot traffic was not present. This and the picture below, capture the same scene around 8pm on a random Wednesday.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Detroit-1/i-gkLjBSx/0/208d8a0d/X2/20210707_200039-X2.jpg)
Quote from: Snaketoz on July 16, 2021, 12:09:40 PM
I would love it downtown, but I doubt there is enough space to allow a big complex. Airport area/northside makes sense due to space.
There's plenty of land in the Sports District. It's mostly industrial moonscape and surface parking lots. Something there would have great synergy with the sports venues already present and support the things the Jags keep proposing.
Lake, on the Detroit post. There are two legislative options proposed currently.
One gives three existing cardroom holders to offer casino gambling if they spend $250 million on development and construction.
The other allows three casinos as long as they spend $500 million on development and construction.
Nobody is spending that kind of money on a historic rehab casino like Detroit. It basically has to be a mega resort like you see in Vegas or the two large Seminole Hard Rock resorts to even qualify. Also, a resortless casino is a lot more viable in cold weather places like Detroit than in Florida.
Quote from: CityLife on July 16, 2021, 01:52:30 PM
One gives three existing cardroom holders to offer casino gambling if they spend $250 million on development and construction.
The other allows three casinos as long as they spend $500 million on development and construction.
Nobody is spending that kind of money on a historic rehab casino like Detroit. It basically has to be a mega resort like you see in Vegas or the two large Seminole Hard Rock resorts to even qualify. Also, a resortless casino is a lot more viable in cold weather places like Detroit than in Florida.
$250-$500 million isn't going to get you as far as you think on a mega resort & casino.
Both Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casinos have had $1 billion plus put into each of them.
Newest Vegas mega resort & casino (Resorts World) had a price tag close to $5 billion.
Quote from: CityLife on July 16, 2021, 01:52:30 PM
Lake, on the Detroit post. There are two legislative options proposed currently.
One gives three existing cardroom holders to offer casino gambling if they spend $250 million on development and construction.
The other allows three casinos as long as they spend $500 million on development and construction.
Nobody is spending that kind of money on a historic rehab casino like Detroit. It basically has to be a mega resort like you see in Vegas or the two large Seminole Hard Rock resorts to even qualify. Also, a resortless casino is a lot more viable in cold weather places like Detroit than in Florida.
I was just showing a good example in an urban setting. There's more than enough room in the Sports District to accommodate a new $250 million mixed use project that includes a casino.
Just to follow up, Motor City Casino in downtown Detroit opened in 1999 at the cost of $825 million. Greektown was recently sold in 2019 for $1 billion. Looking at these numbers, a $250 to $500 million facility in Jax will be pretty small in comparison.
Quote from: CityLife on July 16, 2021, 10:37:45 AM
There are a couple of things working against downtown.
1. The casino operators don't want anyone leaving the site. They want people spending all of their money on food, drink, and entertainment on the property. A location Downtown provides visitors the opportunity to easily walk to other events, entertainment, restaurants, and bars downtown. Sure, a Downtown location will attract more visitors than a suburban location, but many will come no matter where they put it. Especially with world-class pools and amenities.
2. Even though there is cumulatively a lot of vacant land downtown, assembling one large, contiguous tract is likely a challenge. The Seminole Hard Rock in Hollywood is on 100 acres and the Tampa location is 37 acres (I'm sure they would prefer much larger if constructing this now). The Venetian (operated by Las Vegas Sands) is on 67 acres. A focal point of the hotel will likely be a Vegas/South Florida style pool/beach/bar system, which requires a lot of land.
See picture of the main pool at Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood (there is another huge one not even visble) to get a feel for what would/could be built.
(https://assets.simpleviewcms.com/simpleview/image/fetch/c_limit,q_75,w_1200/https://assets.simpleviewinc.com/simpleview/image/upload/crm/ftlauderdale/Property-Image-GH-prespective-Day-hi-res-2-2020pl_7670E52D-D424-46F0-BD7F0EED531C6600_3194cdc4-98cd-458e-a48e3a2b985a12fa.jpg)
The reason the Seminoles have built on these locations, is because this is their reservation land. They had no options. Most casinos in the US that I have been to are in more urban environments including Vegas. I doubt Gaffney has any real inside scoop on this. This is also the type of situation that Khan can step in and use some of his sway.
With the amphitheater, Arena, baseball grounds, and stadium, it makes sense with the business model of Sands in Las Vegas in which they are building their own arena/music venue, have a massive convention space and had a big role in getting the Raiders to Las Vegas. They are all about shows and events getting people on property. There are roughly around 120 acres of usable property around the sports district and more if you are creative. Think about the actual venues just being a part of the property and bringing people to the casino on a nightly basis. The stadium is also going to have a roof and be basically new by the end of the decade. Makes sense to me. It would be the perfect cluster of uses for their business.
How about this for a possibility? Sands buys out and takes over the Orange Park Dog Track. After all, Best Bet is mentioned explicitly in one of the plans. There's interstate access. It's in close proximity to a lot of out of state visitors with NAS down the road. It has plenty of space to either demolish and build or rework the existing property. Plus, that move would knock out a local competitor.
^Flaboy. The Seminoles have 6 casinos in Florida that are on "reservations", but only two that are Hard Rock Hotel and Casinos, which are each mega casino/resort destinations (The Seminoles have since bought the entire Hard Rock company). They invested a ton of money into the Hollywood/Tampa locations because each (while not Downtown) is still in a great location for a large destination casino. Each is among the five most profitable casino's in the country. Any prospective casino operator in Jax knows that it will make a profit wherever they put it, as long as they locate it near 95 and build a quality project.
All I'm doing is pointing out that Downtown isn't the slam dunk that some think it could be. I said yesterday that "downtown is the logical choice, but it's also possible they locate it somewhere else along I-95 where they can easily assemble a large tract of land."
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 16, 2021, 12:24:31 PM
I wonder if Duval is the only candidate. Nassau and St. Johns could also be very appealing for a "resort" style casino and they have the land and more existing tourist oriented infrastructure/focus than Jax, especially in our Downtown area.
Over the years, St. Johns has been often mentioned as a serious candidate for a theme/amusement park so I believe that line of thinking would more likely parallel what a resort casino operator would be looking for. Using St. Augustine's Spanish history as a theme (all casinos today appear to have one) would be a natural too. Add the PGA and World Golf Hall of Fame, Ponte Vedra prestige and beaches and you have a very appealing mix.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on July 16, 2021, 05:05:20 PM
How about this for a possibility? Sands buys out and takes over the Orange Park Dog Track. After all, Best Bet is mentioned explicitly in one of the plans. There's interstate access. It's in close proximity to a lot of out of state visitors with NAS down the road. It has plenty of space to either demolish and build or rework the existing property. Plus, that move would knock out a local competitor.
Quote from: CityLife on July 16, 2021, 05:13:33 PM
Any prospective casino operator in Jax knows that it will make a profit wherever they put it, as long as they locate it near 95 and build a quality project.
All I'm doing is pointing out that Downtown isn't the slam dunk that some think it could be. I said yesterday that "downtown is the logical choice, but it's also possible they locate it somewhere else along I-95 where they can easily assemble a large tract of land."
We agree, it's not a slam dunk that Sands would locate in Duval. Rayonier's Wildlight in Nassau County would likely make a major pitch for this project and they have thousands of acres along I-95 up to the state line and along the exit for A1A. They might even offer their land for a bargain price to create a magnet for surrounding development like he Fletchers did with the PGA, the Davis family did with Mayo or the Hodges did with UNF.
Best Bet operated in St. Johns County so maybe they could restore or still have permits for a facility to relocate there. There are also still lots of large tracts in St. Johns along I-95 that could make a pitch too. I even wonder if economically depressed Flagler could enter the fray.
I don't see anything in the proposed constitutional amendments that would require any new casinos to be located specifically in Duval. On this basis, we should expect lots of potential competitors from other communities. There is also no guarantee that Sands gets the nod for a Best Bet partnership or sole license. Most importantly, it may be an uphill battle just to pass the amendments.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 16, 2021, 06:12:24 PM
I don't see anything in the proposed constitutional amendments that would require any new casinos to be located specifically in Duval.
The amendments do, however, stipulate that the casinos must be more than 130-miles (straight line) from tribal lands.
Someone better at geography and more knowledgable about tribal borders could probably measure it with Google Earth, but feels like it might be close in some of these more southern counties.
The Best Bet in St. Johns was sold and is being redeveloped into a shopping center and apartments, so that's out.
And honestly, I'd seriously question if the support is there to open a casino in St. Johns at this point. A lot has changed in the last decade, and odds are the type of people living in the area now will fight it tooth and nail. I was just reading a thread on Nextdoor of people in Nocatee pissed that a toy store and another gym were going to their town center. A casino? Good lord.
Assuming anything passes next year, I definitely don't see a casino opening in St. Johns or Nassau.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 16, 2021, 08:04:25 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 16, 2021, 06:12:24 PM
I don't see anything in the proposed constitutional amendments that would require any new casinos to be located specifically in Duval.
The amendments do, however, stipulate that the casinos must be more than 130-miles (straight line) from tribal lands.
Someone better at geography and more knowledgable about tribal borders could probably measure it with Google Earth, but feels like it might be close in some of these more southern counties.
As the crow flies it's about 175 miles from the Ft. Pierce reservation and about 135 miles from the Tampa reservation (Hard Rock) to the southern St. Johns County border at I-95.
I do agree with Marcus and Lake that there would be some opposition from residents in St. Johns and Nassau though.
The Tribe also owns land outside of the six reservations. They are currently developing a residential project on their property north of Lakeland. That's likely less than 130 miles from St. Johns County: https://tcd.semtribe.com/projects/lists/view-projects/2f0b9a11-02c0-4fae-aa02-546b11fd1837
Can anyone explain the 130 mile stipulation? Seems an odd and arbitrary number...
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2021, 06:59:23 AM
The Tribe also owns land outside of the six reservations. They are currently developing a residential project on their property north of Lakeland. That's likely less than 130 miles from St. Johns County: https://tcd.semtribe.com/projects/lists/view-projects/2f0b9a11-02c0-4fae-aa02-546b11fd1837
I could be wrong, but believe "tribal lands" just means the reservations and don't believe the Lakeland property is considered a reservation. The Seminoles bought out Hard Rock, so they also own Hard Rock Cafe, Hard Rock Hotel, and Hard Rock Live in Orlando.
Quote from: CityLife on July 17, 2021, 08:18:08 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2021, 06:59:23 AM
The Tribe also owns land outside of the six reservations. They are currently developing a residential project on their property north of Lakeland. That's likely less than 130 miles from St. Johns County: https://tcd.semtribe.com/projects/lists/view-projects/2f0b9a11-02c0-4fae-aa02-546b11fd1837
I could be wrong, but believe "tribal lands" just means the reservations and don't believe the Lakeland property is considered a reservation. The Seminoles bought out Hard Rock, so they also own Hard Rock Cafe, Hard Rock Hotel, and Hard Rock Live in Orlando.
Correction, I read that the Seminoles are trying to designate it a "reservation" so perhaps it would be considered Tribal Lands.
Their Lakeland land is roughly 110 miles from the SJC border at 95. The 130 mile mark is right at World Golf Village. So northern SJC is still in play if it is considered tribal lands.
I'm not sure precisely what limitations exist. But yes in general any land that a tribe buys they could go to the Feds + get it declared Rez, so to speak. They can also buy land just for other reasons.
IIRC even if they get land designated as Rez, they're still going to need a compact with the state for whatever gambling they're looking to do.
a few pieces in that arena.
https://m.lasvegassun.com/news/2004/jul/19/tribe-wants-to-open-casinos-in-ohio/
https://www.knoxnews.com/story/money/business/2019/06/19/cherokee-indians-nc-sevierville-land-casino-sports-betting/1504084001/
https://www.twincities.com/2016/02/19/treasure-island-tribe-buys-land-but-not-for-a-casino/
Quote from: thelakelander on July 16, 2021, 08:46:12 PM
Assuming anything passes next year, I definitely don't see a casino opening in St. Johns or Nassau.
Ennis, what's your thinking for this conclusion?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 16, 2021, 08:22:54 PM
The Best Bet in St. Johns was sold and is being redeveloped into a shopping center and apartments, so that's out.
And honestly, I'd seriously question if the support is there to open a casino in St. Johns at this point. A lot has changed in the last decade, and odds are the type of people living in the area now will fight it tooth and nail. I was just reading a thread on Nextdoor of people in Nocatee pissed that a toy store and another gym were going to their town center. A casino? Good lord.
I was referring to Best Bet's license/permit for a gambling operation they had in St. Johns when the kennel club was still open, not the operation of the physical facility that has long been closed. I was wondering if there were grandfather rights to reestablish a gambling operation in St. Johns that they could reactivate.
I also am not convinced that the exploding population in St. Johns, much of which is from other parts of the U.S., would be adverse to another tourist attraction in the county including a casino. St. John's is mostly a residential suburb of Jax and they would likely be happy to welcome most anything that would expand their commercial tax and employment base based on my observations of pronouncements by their elected officials. And, as big as Nocatee is, it is only a slice of the total county, both people and land wise.
Well... I guesss there
are grandfather rights on the existing license.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/bestbet-plans-st-johns-county-poker-wagering-facility
Quote Bestbet plans St. Johns County poker, wagering facility
In a return to St. Johns County, bestbet plans to build a poker room and simulcast wagering facility near St. Augustine.
St. Johns County issued a building permit July 15 for bestbet to construct a 40,673-square-foot facility at 800 Marketplace Drive in St. Johns County.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 19, 2021, 07:36:31 AM
Well... I guesss there are grandfather rights on the existing license.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/bestbet-plans-st-johns-county-poker-wagering-facility
Quote Bestbet plans St. Johns County poker, wagering facility
In a return to St. Johns County, bestbet plans to build a poker room and simulcast wagering facility near St. Augustine.
St. Johns County issued a building permit July 15 for bestbet to construct a 40,673-square-foot facility at 800 Marketplace Drive in St. Johns County.
LOL. I promise I didn't have any inside info on the article. I just couldn't imagine Best Bet giving up a valuable and, likely, an irreplaceable license for a gambling operation in St. Johns County for good.
Quote from: CityLife on July 17, 2021, 08:28:15 AM
Quote from: CityLife on July 17, 2021, 08:18:08 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 17, 2021, 06:59:23 AM
The Tribe also owns land outside of the six reservations. They are currently developing a residential project on their property north of Lakeland. That's likely less than 130 miles from St. Johns County: https://tcd.semtribe.com/projects/lists/view-projects/2f0b9a11-02c0-4fae-aa02-546b11fd1837
I could be wrong, but believe "tribal lands" just means the reservations and don't believe the Lakeland property is considered a reservation. The Seminoles bought out Hard Rock, so they also own Hard Rock Cafe, Hard Rock Hotel, and Hard Rock Live in Orlando.
Correction, I read that the Seminoles are trying to designate it a "reservation" so perhaps it would be considered Tribal Lands.
Their Lakeland land is roughly 110 miles from the SJC border at 95. The 130 mile mark is right at World Golf Village. So northern SJC is still in play if it is considered tribal lands.
The reservation in Lakeland is actually in the Green Swamp, in unincorporated Polk County miles north of Lakeland.
https://seminoletribune.org/tribal-members-prepare-to-move-into-first-lakeland-reservation-homes/
They own around 900 acres up there. 130 miles as the crow flies from the NE corner of that property puts you right at the I-95/CR 210 interchange.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 18, 2021, 11:18:22 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 16, 2021, 08:46:12 PM
Assuming anything passes next year, I definitely don't see a casino opening in St. Johns or Nassau.
Ennis, what's your thinking for this conclusion?
1. I think most of St. Johns County falls inside of the 130 mile bubble. Other than Durbin Park, I believe other areas outside of that bubble would stimulate local opposition.
2. Based off the land use and zoning policies in Nassau and the county's political and demographic structure, I believe a major casino would draw significant local opposition there as well.
3. $250 to $500 million doesn't get you much in terms of a major resort style casino. So being located in the boonies doesn't make much sense on the surface for a smaller product. Such an investment would be a more feasible investment in Duval, where you'd have political support, a decent airport, a cluster of complementing activities, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 19, 2021, 01:11:39 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on July 18, 2021, 11:18:22 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 16, 2021, 08:46:12 PM
Assuming anything passes next year, I definitely don't see a casino opening in St. Johns or Nassau.
Ennis, what's your thinking for this conclusion?
1. I think most of St. Johns County falls inside of the 130 mile bubble. Other than Durbin Park, I believe other areas outside of that bubble would stimulate local opposition.
2. Based off the land use and zoning policies in Nassau and the county's political and demographic structure, I believe a major casino would draw significant local opposition there as well.
3. $250 to $500 million doesn't get you much in terms of a major resort style casino. So being located in the boonies doesn't make much sense on the surface for a smaller product. Such an investment would be a more feasible investment in Duval, where you'd have political support, a decent airport, a cluster of complementing activities, etc.
Thanks for the perspective. To your last comment, those investments are minimums. I don't see anyone holding back from spending more if the ROI is there. $1 to $2 billion for a themed resort casino would not be unreasonable if it could be justified by the amount of clients it attracts. Therein, lies the big question. For reference, how much does the PGA have invested in the World Golf Hall of Fame complex?
I think if its done right, a casino would be a stand-alone destination magnet and not totally dependent on "complementing activities." I do agree the airport is an asset but the "big gamblers" can fly direct into St. Augustine on their private planes and/or gambling charters. Some of it may come down to are St. Augustine, its beaches and I-95 enough to make St. Johns attractive.
As to the politics of it all, it would be telling to analyze the voting patterns in each county when the amendments are put to a statewide vote. You may be right on your political call, but all three counties, Duval, Nassau and St. Johns, are undergoing significant transformations in their populations making political prognostications maybe trickier than in past years.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 16, 2021, 08:46:12 PM
1. I think most of St. Johns County falls inside of the 130 mile bubble. Other than Durbin Park, I believe other areas outside of that bubble would stimulate local opposition.
I just read the actual text of this amendment and I am not sure if you are measuring correctly. It looks like the required distance is from very specific existing facilities, not generally owned tribal lands. For the existing cardrooms, based on my Google Maps calculation, 130 miles from their Tampa casino puts you at Palm Coast's Matanzas Wood's Parkway interchange with I-95. The amendment allowing Sands is even less restrictive, only having to be 100 miles away, or near Titusville. Please read the relevant excerpts below and see if you agree.
The full text of both amendments can be found at: https://initiativepetitions.elections.myflorida.com/InitiativeForms/Fulltext/Fulltext_2116_EN.pdf and https://initiativepetitions.elections.myflorida.com/InitiativeForms/Fulltext/Fulltext_2115_EN.pdf
Quote"Tribal Facility" means the buildings in which any type of Casino Gaming is conducted at the following casinos pursuant to the Seminole Tribe Gaming Compact:
(a) Seminole Indian Casino - Big Cypress, Clewiston, FL
(b) Seminole Indian Casino – Brighton, Okeechobee, FL
(c) Seminole Indian Casino – Coconut Creek, Coconut Creek, FL
(d) Seminole Indian Casino – Hollywood, Hollywood, FL
(e) Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino – Hollywood, Hollywood, FL
(f) Seminole Indian Casino – Immokalee, Immokalee, FL
(g) Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino – Tampa, Tampa, FL
LOCATION LIMITATIONS. A License Holder shall be authorized to conduct Casino Gaming only if the Gaming Floor of such License Holder is more than 130 miles on a straight line from all Tribal Facilities. Prior to or after the commencement of Casino Gaming, a License Holder may relocate its Gaming Floor to another location within the same county, provided that such relocation is completed prior to December 31, 2025.
"License Holder" means a holder of an active cardroom license issued by the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering, as of January 1, 2022, or any person to whom such license is subsequently transferred.
Interesting that the amendment sponsor is headquartered in Jax Beach:
QuoteSponsor Name: Florida Voters in ChargeSponsor Address: 3948 3rd Street S, #415, Jacksonville Beach, FL 32250
I think predicting political prognostications in the surrounding counties will be pretty easy. All we have to do is dust off the history books. It appears that St. Johns and Nassau are being fueled with Duval's White flight and the voting patterns tend to reflect it in recent races. Basically, the modern day shift of what took place with the urban core back in the 1950s and 60s. On the other hand, Duval seems headed in the opposite direction due to that shift coupled with a more culturally diverse population coming in. So specifically Duval is the one where the prognostications get pretty tricky at the moment. If I were a betting man, I'd move the majority of my chips to Duval on the roulette table. I'd put the second most of no casino coming to NE Florida. I'd also bet that the biggest money maker for a casino here will be local suckers, not big time gamblers flying personal jets into St. Augustine.
Want to know how far $500 million goes for a Jax-style casino?
Take a look at Caesar's $500 million plans for Danville, VA. Not very exciting. Looks like a mall connected to a suburban hotel. Not sure I would want this in our metro area unless they convert Regency or Gateway malls into this ;D.
(https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/15601597_web1_Danville_Hotel3Sisters_View1-1-crop.jpg?crop=1)
(https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/15601597_web1_20210916_Danville_BishopEntry_View2-1-.jpg?crop=1)
(https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/15601597_web1_20210916_Danville_PorteCochere_View1-1-.jpg?crop=1)
(https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/15601597_web1_20210916_Danville_Aerial_View1-1-.jpg?crop=1)
https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/casinos-gaming/caesars-entertainment-unveils-renderings-for-500m-virginia-resort-2441533/
^ Interestingly, it looks like Virginia may also be adding casinos in Richmond, Portsmouth, Bristol and Norfolk. Here was the state's criteria for locating them:
QuoteHB4 legalized the state for five casinos in cities that met strict criteria. Among them cities had to have a poverty rate of 20% or higher, unemployment rates of 4% or higher, a population that has decreased by 20% or more in the past year and 40% of the city real estate is exempt from tax.
https://augustafreepress.com/five-virginia-localities-to-move-on-with-casino-projects/
Our ex-Lot J "friends," the Cordish Companies, were competing in Richmond. Not only do they operate Live! venues but also quite a few casinos.
An excerpt from March 25th in Richmond is below to give a flavor of what we might see here someday. Subsequently, it looks like the Urban One proposal won out but it's subject to Richmond voters approving of a casino in their town via a referendum vote in November.
QuoteWith Wednesday's news, the three remaining casino proposals are:
Bally's $650 million, 1.6 million-square-foot casino with sportsbook, performance space, a hotel and dining and retail outlets on a 61-acre parcel of land south of the James River near the city's western border, which also includes a $100 million one-time payment to the city. Former NFL linebacker Willie Lanier, a Richmond resident, and Reston entrepreneur Warren Thompson, the founder, president and chairman of Thompson Hospitality Corp., are also involved in the project.
Urban One's $517 million ONE casino. Urban One owns and operates 55 radio stations and the TV One cable network, and it has paired with Peninsula Pacific Entertainment, Colonial Downs Group's owner and the Rosie's Gaming Emporium franchise owner. This project, including a sportsbook, 150 hotel rooms, a 3,000-seat theater, 90,000 square feet of gaming space, and 12 bars and restaurants, would be built on 100 acres owned by Altria Group Inc. on Richmond's South Side, a largely industrial area.
Baltimore-based The Cordish Cos., which owns casinos in Baltimore, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh and Florida, proposed the $600 million Live! Casino & Hotel Richmond resort on Richmond's North Side, near The Diamond baseball stadium on the current Movieland theater property. The resort would include a hotel with 300 rooms and 30 suites, a 4,000-seat entertainment venue and 250,000 square feet of gaming space.
Urban One CEO Alfred Liggins released this statement Wednesday night: "ONE is honored and excited to be selected as one of three finalists to develop a resort casino project in the city of Richmond. We are convinced our selection is based on having the absolute best location in an industrial area off Interstate 95 in South Richmond; having the most diverse group of more than 50 investors providing opportunity for minority ownership and wealth-building in the Richmond community; and offering the most robust amenities, including 50 acres of green space for Richmond to enjoy, a music venue and a first-class casino and hotel."
Bally's President and CEO George Papanier said in a statement Wednesday night, "The Bally's Richmond is truly a Richmond-first project, dedicated to supporting local businesses and minority organizations by driving job creation and developing sustained economic opportunities. We are confident that our proposal will provide incomparable economic benefits to the greater Richmond community, and we look forward to continuing our dialogue to prove to the city and its various stakeholders that Bally's is for RVA."
And Zed Smith, chief operating officer of The Cordish Cos., said in a statement Wednesday, "Live! Casino & Hotel Richmond will maximize jobs, tax revenues and community impacts for the city. The project will generate over $7.5 billion in overall economic benefits, $1.5 billion in tax revenue and over $200 million in incremental community benefit payments to the city over the first 15 years of the project. These payments will help fund critical community services such as infrastructure, education, healthcare, parks & recreation, workforce development and affordable housing."
https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/richmond-rejects-pamunkey-casino-proposal-tribe-says/
Um...a development like that at Regency would indeed be phenomenal. I know SJTC is close by, but it still surprises me that we have so many retail vacancies (both in the mall and surrounding retail centers) as the residential population is exploding along with property values.
Would look great on Lennys lawn or the empty lot at elbow. Rather that than USS Rustbucket... err Orleck.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 18, 2021, 07:31:20 AM
Would look great on Lennys lawn or the empty lot at elbow. Rather that than USS Rustbucket... err Orleck.
THAT SHIT IS GOING TO BE A GAME CHANGER!
*Ship
^ Their funding mechanism looks questionable from a financial sustainability standpoint. Where are all the donations from supporters and the general public that want this here? Already starting with substantial debt.
QuoteTo fund the only U.S. Naval warship museum in Florida, the group has $2.5 million: $1 million from the state of Florida and another $1.5 million from loans and creditors.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/09/18/organizers-gearing-up-as-jacksonville-naval-museum-moves-closer-to-reality/
And then there is this contingency:
Quote....now the next big step is getting her to dry dock in Texas and inspecting her, make sure she's good to go for the next 10 years as a museum ship," said Weakland. "The Orleck is a historic bold ship for the Bold City."
The Orleck museum ship will be dry-docked at Port Arthur, Texas, where its hull will be inspected to make sure it can make the trip to Florida and continue to serve as a museum ship. According to a news release, the drydocking of the ship is planned for Nov. 1.
Bless those supporting this but one has to continue to wonder how feasible it is over the long haul. Have they disclosed their budget for bringing it here, creating the museum and then operating the ship with museum? How enthused are those military groups they are counting on to make ends meet?
There are newer more pertinent ships appropriate for Jacksonville. A Cold War workhorse actually stationed at Mayport was the OHP class frigate...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Hazard_Perry-class_frigate
According to this excerpt from the business journal, the new constitutional amendment would allow casinos to operate along the I-10 corridor which would leave Downtown out of the equation
QuoteThe ballot initiative would allow voters to decide whether to allow existing pari-mutuel operators in North Florida to add casino games to their operations.
The measure, if approved, would open the door to casinos along the Interstate 10 corridor in North Florida and is geared toward a facility in the Jacksonville area.
The Supreme Court's review will consider whether the initiative meets requirements such as having a single subject and not being misleading to voters.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2022/01/10/supreme-court-to-consider-casino-initiative.html
I volunteer the FDOT building
I-10 ends in Brooklyn, which is considered to be a part of downtown now. Also, unless, there's some provision limiting proximity to walking distance from I-10 ROW, it would not leave any of downtown out of the question.
The "I-10 Corridor" is a rough approximation. The language in the proposal says
Quote
LOCATION LIMITATIONS. A License Holder shall be authorized to conduct Casino Gaming only if the Gaming Floor of such License Holder is more than 130 miles on a straight line from all Tribal Facilities. Prior to or after the commencement of Casino Gaming, a License Holder may relocate its Gaming Floor to another location within the same county, provided that such relocation is completed prior to December 31, 2025.
The petition lists those facilities
Quote
"Tribal Facility" means the buildings in which any type of Casino Gaming is conducted at the following casinos pursuant to the Seminole Tribe Gaming Compact:
(a) Seminole Indian Casino - Big Cypress, Clewiston, FL
(b) Seminole Indian Casino – Brighton, Okeechobee, FL
(c) Seminole Indian Casino – Coconut Creek, Coconut Creek, FL
(d) Seminole Indian Casino – Hollywood, Hollywood, FL
(e) Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino – Hollywood, Hollywood, FL
(f) Seminole Indian Casino – Immokalee, Immokalee, FL
(g) Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino – Tampa, Tampa, FL
Tampa is the farthest north of the Seminole facilities. 130 miles reaches about 10 miles north of Gainesville (sorry Gators) but looks like it allows casinos in all of Duval and Nassau Counties, most of St. Johns County, as well as Steinhatchee, Starke, and parts of Palm Coast (along the ocean).
Source: https://ballotpedia.org/Florida_Casino_Gaming_Expansion_Initiative_(2022)
Times Union area?
My money's still on the Fairgrounds.
Zero chance the Jags bought the property (with an assist from taxpayers for the relocation) with the end game of parking.
And I don't know what else could cause such secrecy when it comes to this parcel.
Other projects it's been easy to get information about, but I've only ever heard the Fairgrounds project referred to as "the thing at the Fairgrounds."
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 11, 2022, 11:34:22 AM
The "I-10 Corridor" is a rough approximation. The language in the proposal says
Quote
LOCATION LIMITATIONS. A License Holder shall be authorized to conduct Casino Gaming only if the Gaming Floor of such License Holder is more than 130 miles on a straight line from all Tribal Facilities. Prior to or after the commencement of Casino Gaming, a License Holder may relocate its Gaming Floor to another location within the same county, provided that such relocation is completed prior to December 31, 2025.
The petition lists those facilities
Quote
"Tribal Facility" means the buildings in which any type of Casino Gaming is conducted at the following casinos pursuant to the Seminole Tribe Gaming Compact:
(a) Seminole Indian Casino - Big Cypress, Clewiston, FL
(b) Seminole Indian Casino – Brighton, Okeechobee, FL
(c) Seminole Indian Casino – Coconut Creek, Coconut Creek, FL
(d) Seminole Indian Casino – Hollywood, Hollywood, FL
(e) Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino – Hollywood, Hollywood, FL
(f) Seminole Indian Casino – Immokalee, Immokalee, FL
(g) Seminole Hard Rock Hotel & Casino – Tampa, Tampa, FL
Tampa is the farthest north of the Seminole facilities. 130 miles reaches about 10 miles north of Gainesville (sorry Gators) but looks like it allows casinos in all of Duval and Nassau Counties, most of St. Johns County, as well as Steinhatchee, Starke, and parts of Palm Coast (along the ocean).
Source: https://ballotpedia.org/Florida_Casino_Gaming_Expansion_Initiative_(2022)
Charles, interesting. I had previously misread this as having to be within 130 miles, not
more than 130 miles. So, I stand corrected.
I do note that 130 miles from Tampa would also allow casinos in places like Pensacola and Panama City, somewhat ironic given they are known as significant bastions of conservatism. But, "liberal" Tallahassee also is allowed :).
Given the booming tourism on Florida's Emerald Coast, I actually think that they could be first in line over something in Jacksonville. They are far ahead of us in attracting high income tourists, especially from oil rich Texas and the upper Midwest. Keep in mind the casinos in Mississippi (and New Orleans, beyond) are not far from there showing the demand on the Gulf Coast has already been demonstrated.
I have no doubt that Jax would end up with one if this thing passes. There's too much money to be made.
No casinos for Jax anytime soon. Las Vegas interests have thrown in the towel for now.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/politics/state/2022/04/01/backers-drop-north-florida-casinos-bid-controversial-amendment/7249355001/