QuoteRenderings of proposed plans for a Four Seasons Hotel and Football Performance Center at Jacksonville's TIAA Bank Field.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Down-Town-Jaguars/i-mjFFB2N/0/038dfc15/L/342336_standard-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Down-Town-Jaguars/i-Pk8TRMM/0/5118ff6d/L/Slide18-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Down-Town-Jaguars/i-tGG7TLz/0/0cc8ca24/L/342337_standard-L.jpg)
Full article and additional renderings: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/1st-downtown-jacksonville-renderings/
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For the Shipyards - Love this concept and this plan. A Four Seasons definitely changes the playing field downtown. Very fired up the Jags are going about this the right way, though the DIA.
For the football facility - seems like a no-brainer. Currently COJ is obligated to pay for all facilities, and to maintain them, but in this scenario we get a world class facility (ideally to attract and develop better players!) and Shad is going to pay for half, AND agree to cover all maintenance and operational costs going forward.
Home runs all around.
Looks like a MUCH better incentives package as well.
With the largest chunk coming from a REV grant, and a smaller completion grant, rather than the upfront cash nonsense of Lot J.
I don't think downtown revitalization equates to building a playground for ultra-rich locals, travelers, and athletes, but cost looks reasonable, return looks reasonable (particularly in anchoring the Jags here and providing something additive rather than competitive), and project looks realistic.
I dig it.
I feel the need to come out of retirement (briefly) to comment on this.
The wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time. I'm not the least bit surprised the people in this group love this plan. Sometimes you get what you deserve, and Jax 100% deserves this.
I'll go back into retirement with this closing thought.
If the Jags are going to abandon the Flex Field the City paid for on their behalf, then the Jags should return their portion of Daily's Place to the City and all current concession, operation, and revenue contracts voided and a penalty assesed for lost property tax revenue.
I still don't know if Jax is ready for the 4 Seasons, but the remainder of the plan looks doable. I do wonder about the new facilities coming so quickly after the flex field at Daily's. Was that facility not well done or did it not meet the needs it was designed to?
^Good to see you, Kerry. Was worried when you disappeared during the pandemic. Glad you guys are doing well.
I will agree that this is probably my least favorite part of the proposal, the abandonment of the Flex Field.
I think it's a unique, beautiful space, particularly when the sliding doors are fully open (which I've maybe seen twice in my life). We could do some really unique things there, and just having it wide open to the street and the public with the Jags practice field there would make it fun, covered compliment to Met Park.
All that said, if I'm the city, I'm not letting the Jags just wipe their hands of the Flex Field. Ideally, they'd oversee activity there, or at least kick in the funds necessary for the Parks department to program and staff the space.
QuoteCurrently COJ is obligated to pay for all facilities, and to maintain them, but in this scenario we get a world class facility (ideally to attract and develop better players!) and Shad is going to pay for half, AND agree to cover all maintenance and operational costs going forward.
I realize the city is required to maintain the stadium, but are they
required to also build and maintain this or any future facilities that are considered (by the Jags) a football facility?
Also, are the Jags assuming maintenance and operational costs of THIS new facility only or the existing stadium as well?
QuoteThe wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.
Was wondering where you went. Where did you end up relocating to? Hope you are pleased with your decision.
QuoteAll that said, if I'm the city, I'm not letting the Jags just wipe their hands of the Flex Field. Ideally, they'd oversee activity there, or at least kick in the funds necessary for the Parks department to program and staff the space.
Jax has a grossly underfunded Parks department that is doing good to keep the grass cut in half it's parks. They will definitely need additional dedicated funds to do anything with this space.
I really love the vision here on this iteration of the rendering. Still ALOT of work and details that still need to be hashed out. I think this will be the path forward.
But I wanted to commend those in our public offices that made the deciding vote to reject the plans prior because of financial obligations that would burden the city or how the deal was laid out or any other of the myriad of reasons. You see how excited and positive the first few comments are on here (and many more on social media). This is what it's about and why we have the DDRB, DIA, Council to review these types of projects.
It doesn't get to this point without these integral roles who can scrutinize, debate, and ultimate decide on this type of stuff. Again, long road ahead but I don't think it will be as turbulent as the last few times.
The Flex Field component is something that I have a lot of questions on and I'll save that for a different time but I think the land swap for Met Park impacted this decision.
Much, much more palatable project than Lot J. Good to see.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 03, 2021, 02:35:02 PM
QuoteAll that said, if I'm the city, I'm not letting the Jags just wipe their hands of the Flex Field. Ideally, they'd oversee activity there, or at least kick in the funds necessary for the Parks department to program and staff the space.
Jax has a grossly underfunded Parks department that is doing good to keep the grass cut in half it's parks. They will definitely need additional dedicated funds to do anything with this space.
Unquestionably, this seems like a night and day better proposal than the Lot J "thing". With that said, it isn't perfect and this is high on the list of things I'm having a hard time with. As I understand it, the project for the Club Renovations, Daily's Place, and Flex Field was $90M, with COJ paying $45M. Of the $90M, how much was the Flex Field? The space strikes me as a bit of an albatross - what are we realistically going to do with this building?
I LOVE that the Jags are responsible for the maintenance of the new Practice Facility. That doesn't guarantee that they won't ask COJ for money, but it's definitely an improvement.
The other question I have about the hotel: The agreement technically lists, "Five Star Hotel", which means it may not be a Four Seasons. However, the list of 5-Stars is quite large, with names like Ritz-Carlton, JW Marriott, Park Hyatt, and Waldorf-Astoria. But, they have to agree to put their flag on the building. What if they build the thing and they don't agree? Obviously some hotel brand would agree and if it was a flag like Westin, Intercontinental, etc. then it's certainly nice for downtown. But...it's not a 5 Star Hotel. Does that matter? I think it does a little.
I want to learn more, but it seems like the Jags definitely listened. Hats off to the City Council Members that said "no" to Lot J. I think everyone benefitted from that actually.
Doesn't Shad already own a Four Seasons?
Quote from: blizz01 on June 03, 2021, 03:07:06 PM
Doesn't Shad already own a Four Seasons?
Yes, in Toronto I think.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on June 03, 2021, 02:48:25 PM
But I wanted to commend those in our public offices that made the deciding vote to reject the plans prior because of financial obligations that would burden the city or how the deal was laid out or any other of the myriad of reasons. You see how excited and positive the first few comments are on here (and many more on social media). This is what it's about and why we have the DDRB, DIA, Council to review these types of projects.
It doesn't get to this point without these integral roles who can scrutinize, debate, and ultimate decide on this type of stuff. Again, long road ahead but I don't think it will be as turbulent as the last few times.
As I have noted before, I think that the Council did a favor for Shad killing Lot J. He never came here and personally fought for it and he never appeared to lose any sleep over its defeat. Reading between the lines, I think he realized he was asking for something that, upon reflection, he was glad not to get. Having Lamping and Harden fight for it to the end was possibly just window dressing so didn't have to admit a mistake. Further proof is this comeback which, for him and the City, is a much better plan.
Wondering what the Doro developer thinks of this.
Reposting on this thread:Just wondering... with the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps, how will the increased traffic in this area from Shad's planned development impact the traffic flow off of/on to the bridge? How is it working during Stadium, Arena, Baseball and Daily's events so far?
Can we at least have 40 more renderings before the City pulls the plug again?
Clearly some if you need to take off the teal colored glasses and watch the video again.
1) The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million. Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced. Well, which is it?
2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements. Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced. So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.
3) While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap. If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?
4) How is any of this better than Lot J? At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.
5) in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities. Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid? The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.
I could go on and on and on. This proposal is so insulting and absurd I would have had to get up and walk out of the room. You want to keep the Jags in Jax? Then make them own all the team related items. It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.
The architecture for this and the Atkins plans are both incredible and on a completely different level than anything we've seen in Jax in modern times. Will be interested to see the final ask on both, but at least these guys are aiming high with their concepts.
I'll say something that I've said to clients on the private side of land development and as a planning director on the public side. Once you show renderings to the public to attempt to get buy in on a project, you CANNOT ever backtrack and show renderings of a lower quality product. There are some well run and highly desirable municipalities in Florida that will straight up kill your project if you pull stunts like that.
Jax's leaders and the DIA need to be clear with Khan that there is no going backwards or value engineering at this point. That was ultimately one of the things that I think killed Lot J. Hopefully Khan and co have learned their lesson there.
Quote from: CityLife on June 03, 2021, 03:34:17 PM
The architecture for this and the Atkins plans are both incredible and on a completely different level than anything we've seen in Jax in modern times. Will be interested to see the final ask on both, but at least these guys are aiming high with their concepts.
I'll say something that I've said to clients on the private side of land development and as a planning director on the public side. Once you show renderings to the public to attempt to get buy in on a project, you CANNOT ever backtrack and show renderings of a lower quality product. There are some well run and highly desirable municipalities in Florida that will straight up kill your project if you pull stunts like that.
Jax's leaders and the DIA need to be clear with Khan that there is no going backwards or value engineering at this point. That was ultimately one of the things that I think killed Lot J. Hopefully Khan and co have learned their lesson there.
You must be new to Jacksonville. In 2 years the Four Seasons will be a Motel 6 and the subsidy request will have gone up 20%
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
I could go on and on and on.
Maybe you should take your own advice:
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 01:54:42 PM
I'll go back into retirement with this closing thought.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:37:28 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 03, 2021, 03:34:17 PM
The architecture for this and the Atkins plans are both incredible and on a completely different level than anything we've seen in Jax in modern times. Will be interested to see the final ask on both, but at least these guys are aiming high with their concepts.
I'll say something that I've said to clients on the private side of land development and as a planning director on the public side. Once you show renderings to the public to attempt to get buy in on a project, you CANNOT ever backtrack and show renderings of a lower quality product. There are some well run and highly desirable municipalities in Florida that will straight up kill your project if you pull stunts like that.
Jax's leaders and the DIA need to be clear with Khan that there is no going backwards or value engineering at this point. That was ultimately one of the things that I think killed Lot J. Hopefully Khan and co have learned their lesson there.
You must be new to Jacksonville. In 2 years the Four Seasons will be a Motel 6.
Uhhhh, I know how things work in Jax. Hence why the point was made in the first place. Jax's leaders need to no longer allow themselves and the public to get played.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 03:30:53 PM
Reposting on this thread:
Just wondering... with the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps, how will the increased traffic in this area from Shad's planned development impact the traffic flow off of/on to the bridge? How is it working during Stadium, Arena, Baseball and Daily's events so far?
It's still under construction and the last year has been impacted by Covid. Nevertheless, one thing I see in this plan is that the proposed driveways don't align well with the Hart Bridge ramp revamp:
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/First-Down-Town-Jaguars/i-Kjq9xrq/0/94796c04/L/342347_standard-L.png)
If you're traveling westbound, it doesn't look like you'll be able to make a left turn into this development. If you're on the on-ramp at APR heading east, you could have cars pulling out in front of you, as you speed up to merge into eastbound expressway traffic coming down the ramp.
"Must be a 5-star hotel" Does that have to mean a rating?
Is that like the famous "Four Seasons Landscaping" maybe "Billy Bob's 5-Star Hotel and Taxidermy"
This won't mean a thing to Jacksonville, because its too spread out. Nobody is going to travel all the way across the bridge just to see a mediocre football team win 5-6 games each season.
I like this plan and believe the Jaguars, Shad and City will get more benefits from this than Lot J.
Some interesting comments/differences from Lot J that will make a difference in viability and public support.
1. The Jaguars must go through DIA for financials and designs form the start. ++++
2. Lamping said with a chuckle, better to have only ONE partner, Shad.
3. Iguana will upgrade and maintain Met Park. Better for Shad and the public. Obviously Shad doesn't want "an existing Met Park" beside a Four Seasons. Time to get a Kids Kampus back into park.
4. Four Seasons (as well as most hotel) do not build the hotels. Owner/operators do. I'm sure Shad or Lamping have already discussed with Four Season about this hotel. He said that he alone is responsible for it's financial success.
5. Although Shad would not discuss the term sheet yet (that's good. let DIA do their thing) Lamping did say that a substantial part of the Shipyards investment will come from Shad/Iguana.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 03, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
QuoteThe wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.
Was wondering where you went. Where did you end up relocating to? Hope you are pleased with your decision.
We have spent the past 6 months "trying out" different cities. Like the Jags, we also have a check list. Right now we have an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City. To parahrase former Bogota mayor Enrique Penalosa, a City is just a means to a way of life. Figure out how you want to live then move to a City that has that.
Not sure where we go after OKC, but that is why we are on an expedition of discovery.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
Clearly some if you need to take off the teal colored glasses and watch the video again.
1) The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million. Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced. Well, which is it?
2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements. Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced. So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.
3) While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap. If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?
4) How is any of this better than Lot J? At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.
5) in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities. Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid? The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.
I could go on and on and on. This proposal is so insulting and absurd I would have had to get up and walk out of the room. You want to keep the Jags in Jax? Then make them own all the team related items. It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.
Interesting tidbits. As always, the devil is in the details. All these proposals sound great on Day One. It's like a first date! Once we get know them better, they might not be as exciting. I do think the Jags should put all the cards on the table regarding stadium needs and other matters so we can see this holistically in the best interest of all parties involved. A piece meal approach is not smart.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
1) The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million. Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced. Well, which is it?
I'll rewatch the video. With that said, replacing core systems in a building approaching 30 years old isn't shocking.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements. Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced. So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.
The Pools and Cabana Structure is part of the Lower Bowl. This would be the East and West upper decks and Potentially the Press/Suite Level. Note one of the Upper Decks (believe the West) dates to 1983
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
3) While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap. If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?
You are likely right in some respects. It would be silly to do the practice facility then just do nothing on the stadium. With that said, this is a million times more palatable than Lot J. But I acknowledge your point.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
4) How is any of this better than Lot J? At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.
No stupid Breadbox Loan, Way less up front money, and the entire premise behind Lot J was stupid (that last one is my opinion)
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
5) in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities. Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid? The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.
Your Flex Field comment is one of the things that I'm having a hard time with on this proposal, and I mentioned that previously (here or in another thread). But the difference is that the city has an opportunity to tie them to a long term lease. I'm okay with that.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.
It depends if another city would build all of that for them. Which some definitely would.
Quote from: jaxjags on June 03, 2021, 03:55:51 PM
5. Although Shad would not discuss the term sheet yet (that's good. let DIA do their thing) Lamping did say that a substantial part of the Shipyards investment will come from Shad/Iguana.
$20 million in cash upfront (vs. $200 million for Lot J) for remediation, site work, half the marina costs, and relocation of the Fire museums.
$75 million on the backend ($45 million rev grant, ~$30 million completion grant).
WORLDS better deal than Lot J.
And perhaps just as importantly, the structure of the deal (and the hope that the bed tax can fund a portion of the training facility) means that the Jags proposal doesn't necessarily torpedo our ability to get other downtown projects going concurrently.
Quote from: blizz01 on June 03, 2021, 03:07:06 PM
Doesn't Shad already own a Four Seasons?
Four Seasons operate almost like a franchise. If a prospective franchisee puts together a good enough deal for them, they will open anywhere.
Khan wants the hotel to include 25 residences. My hunch is that he wants a penthouse there for himself when he's in Jax (along with the Marina for his boat/boats). Then have a few units for Tony Khan and other family members/visitors. I also think it would be smart to save a few units to use as part of his compensation packages for Jags executives and coaches. I believe there are other pro sports franchises that use real estate assets this way.
Either way, having the Four Seasons and residences benefits Khan quite a bit personally and professionally. If he is committed to staying in Jax, I think he will operate it at breakeven (or maybe even a loss) just for the advantages it can provide him and the Jags.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 03, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
QuoteThe wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.
Was wondering where you went. Where did you end up relocating to? Hope you are pleased with your decision.
We have spent the past 6 months "trying out" different cities. Like the Jags, we also have a check list. Right now we have an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City. To parahrase former Bogota mayor Enrique Penalosa, a City is just a means to a way of life. Figure out how you want to live then move to a City that has that.
Not sure where we go after OKC, but that is why we are on an expedition of discovery.
What are the pros and cons of OKC that you have experienced so far?
All of this was the same giant Jags $4it sandwich being marketed and sold as prime steak - which is all the Jags and NFL have been doing to Jax since day 1. Not surprising, some people still lap it up like they have never eaten before.
Do a binary switch with Jags and COJ. COJ pays half inculding cost over runs (and get to keep half of any under-runs**), the Jags own all the non-revenue producing items, and the City gets all the revenue generation. Do you think that Jags take that deal? Of course they wouldn't.
** did you notice the Jags slipping that in. If the price comes in under budget the Jags want to keep half the savings. COJ should get 100% of the savings.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 03, 2021, 04:29:53 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 04:02:31 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 03, 2021, 02:32:41 PM
QuoteThe wife and I relocated part-time and this is probably just the kind of proposal that will seal the deal to relocate full-time.
Was wondering where you went. Where did you end up relocating to? Hope you are pleased with your decision.
We have spent the past 6 months "trying out" different cities. Like the Jags, we also have a check list. Right now we have an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City. To parahrase former Bogota mayor Enrique Penalosa, a City is just a means to a way of life. Figure out how you want to live then move to a City that has that.
Not sure where we go after OKC, but that is why we are on an expedition of discovery.
What are the pros and cons of OKC that you have experienced so far?
OKC has a lot going for it so the Pro list is really long. We actually love it here.
On the Con side, their streetcar layout is poorly designed and operated, but that is what you get when a Citizens over-sight board is in charge and none of them have any transit planning experience.
Nice grocery stores are few and far between, at least for those of us living downtown. That is about to change though.
https://www.okctalk.com/content.php?r=731-Project-will-bring-living-units-retail-restaurant-and-greenhouse-space-to-Auto-Alley
Metro-wide rail transit is taking a long time to get going. Oil plays a huge role in this City and the old guard is still pushing buses and BRT while the people are screaming for rail. Metro-wide rail is still 10 years out.
There are an insane amount of pot dispenseries here. More than any other state.
Decent hiking is 90 minutes away, and it is all day-hiking. Wish it was a little closer to the rockies.
^^ Pot is legal in OK?
I never heard that before. Is it medical only?
It has been a long time but I was impressed with OKC when I visited years ago.
It's great to see Kerry posting once again.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 03, 2021, 05:04:14 PM
^^ Pot is legal in OK?
I never heard that before. Is it medical only?
It has been a long time but I was impressed with OKC when I visited years ago.
It is medical only, but there are no restrictions or limitations on what "medical" means. For $32 any state resident can get a medical card for any reason including stress, anxiety, or even loss of appetite.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
On the Con side, their streetcar layout is poorly designed and operated, but that is what you get when a Citizens over-sight board is in charge and none of them have any transit planning experience.
My guess is that it is an expensive (yet cheaper than the AV thing planned by JTA), slow moving tourist train that shares lanes with cars, while basically looping you around downtown, as opposed to connecting into neighborhoods where more residents live?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 03, 2021, 02:16:33 PM
I still don't know if Jax is ready for the 4 Seasons, but the remainder of the plan looks doable. I do wonder about the new facilities coming so quickly after the flex field at Daily's. Was that facility not well done or did it not meet the needs it was designed to?
The way Urban was talking, the new facility will be world class and top level for recruiting and the players, which says to me he feels that flex field does not meet those requirements and is not top level/world class. Just my opinion(s) from what I heard today.
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 03:33:30 PM
Clearly some if you need to take off the teal colored glasses and watch the video again.
1) The Jags said "good news" all the plumbing, electrical, etc is in good shape so a new staduim isn't needed, saving $700 million. Then two slides later they say the plumbing, electrical, etc all needs to be replaced. Well, which is it?
2) The Jags had a must-have list for stadium improvements. Slipped in there was the comment that everything above the lower bowl would have to replaced. So the swimming pools and scoreboard that the City spent $80 million on while we were closing 4 libraries will all be torn down - decades BEFORE their service life is over.
3) While the Jags didn't go into stadium renovation costs, it is a classic money trap. If the City agrees to any of this then we will also be on the hook for whatever stadium requestv the Jags have, because what are we going to do, tell them No after sinking hundreds of millions of more money into them?
4) How is any of this better than Lot J? At least Lot J had a bar complex for averge Jax alcoholic.
5) in the same breath the Jags walk away from the Flex Field ( that the city owns specifically so the Jags would haven't financial obligation to stay in Jax) they say they want the City to own the new practice facilities. Do they really think the people of Jax are that stupid? The answer is yes, they do, because the people in Jax are that stupid.
I could go on and on and on. This proposal is so insulting and absurd I would have had to get up and walk out of the room. You want to keep the Jags in Jax? Then make them own all the team related items. It is hard to move when you you have $500 million worth of buildings, practice fields, etc that you would have to leave behind.
I agree Kerry, and the last paragraph makes more sense to me than anything; why the City doesn't think like you, or we do, it just befuddles me. Thanks for the elucidation of this issue, Lot J versus Flex Field versus this new proposal.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 03, 2021, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 03, 2021, 04:53:49 PM
On the Con side, their streetcar layout is poorly designed and operated, but that is what you get when a Citizens over-sight board is in charge and none of them have any transit planning experience.
My guess is that it is an expensive (yet cheaper than the AV thing planned by JTA), slow moving tourist train that shares lanes with cars, while basically looping you around downtown, as opposed to connecting into neighborhoods where more residents live?
This could/should be its own thread
With most of the day to reflect on it, I am extremely impressed with how the Jags have moved forward from the Lot J fiasco and I think - a few quibbles asides - they kind of knocked this one out of the park today.
Some of the biggest complaints with Lot J were:
1) Lack of transparency from the Jags
2) Lack of involvement with the DIA and DDRB
3) Lack of community outreach
4) Shad Khan's absence from the conversation
5) Secretive ROI calculations and cost estimates
6) Failure to address needs at the stadium
7) Disrespect/entitlement toward properties like Met Park
8 ) A cash-heavy financial package that put all of the upfront risk on the city
To a bullet, I think they showed they have learned from these past failures and seem to have put a real good faith effort into doing all of these things right this time.
Starting with the transparency, the presentation was just fantastic in terms of laying everything out in concrete, non-nebulous terms. "This is exactly what the project is going to be. This is what we're asking for. This is why we think it's important. This is why we think it's going to be mutually beneficial for both of us." And they've built a pretty incredible website in support of their 1stDownTown initiative (https://1stdowntownjacksonville.com/) that lays out the Shipyards project and performance center, and charts step-by-step the process the Jags are undertaking with the city to address the future of the stadium. It feels like they're going to make a conscious effort to conduct these discussion in the light of day, rather than in secret.
Where, with Lot J, City Council and the DIA largely found out important project details and financial terms when the development agreement was dumped on their laps by the Jags and Lenny Curry, Mark Lamping/The Jags have been working closely with the DIA and actively engaging both City Council and members of the business community. ROI calculations have been laid out in clear terms for the city to dissect.
Shad Khan bookended the presentation today instead of hiding in the shadows, and even though I think he can lack a bit of self awareness sometimes about how priveleged he can come off, I think he did a good job of reinforcing the franchise's commitment to the Jacksonville market.
I think the Jags were VERY smart to frame the new standalone football facility as a first phase of creating a new, modern NFL compound. Is it convenient that Urban Meyer demanded a standalone facility and it's now phase one of stadium plans? Sure. But it is a legitimate need to remain competitive and further vests the Jags to Jacksonville via the long-term lease on the facility and their $60 million investment. Realistically, we can't expect a new long-term lease on the stadium until upgrades are made, but partnering on an expensive long-term operations facility for the Jags shows good faith from both sides in terms of getting a long-term stadium solution figured out.
Similarly, where Lot J saw the city literally paying to build office space for the Jags, AEW, Bold Events, and other Jags subsidiaries (including furniture), the new proposal sees the Jaguars fully funding construction of their new office space adjacent to the hotel. It's demonstrable skin in the game from Khan. With the old proposal, it was at least plausible to speculate that the Jags were hedging their bets in the event that they decided to relocate when the stadium lease expired. With this proposal, it would be absurd to think that the Jags were literally offering to put between $250 and $300 million of their own cash into a new football operations facility, a new office building, a 20-year committment to Met Park, and a five-star hotel if their intent wasn't to stay. In my opinion, the community should feel pretty good about the Jags commitment to the market after today.
Speaking of Met Park, the Jags were (rightfully) accused in the past of showing entitlement toward our publicly owned urban park. They were (rightfully) criticized for planning development right on top of it with no public discourse. So they've responded with a proposal to adopt the park and marina and turn them into a true asset for the public again. No development on the original 14 acre park. Just improvements. Hard to be mad at that.
Finally, the new term sheet is a complete reversal of what we saw previously. In place of the cash-heavy Lot J deal where the city puts in all of its money upfront, the new Shipyards/Met Park term sheet has only $20 million in public ask on the front end, only $30 million in cash on the back end payable only on completion of the project, and a 20-year $45 million REV grant upon completion that won't cost taxpayers a dime. Just night and day compared to the breadbox bullshit and vague $100 million upfront infrastructure ask from Lot J.
On the standalone football facility, to Mike's point in the previous thread, it's a stretch for the Jags to suggest that the city is required to pay for all of a new facility just because the Jags decide they want it, but I think the 50/50 ask was bound to come eventually as part of stadium talks. No real issue with getting the ball moving on this piece sooner than later, and it sounds there might be some wiggle room to partially fund the city's half from the bed tax.
Lot of naysayers on whether Four Seasons would plant a flag here, or whether the market could support it. At this point, I'm going to trust the guy with $8 billion in the bank who owns the flagship Four Seasons and may soon own a second Four Seasons in Canada. If he pulls it off, even though it won't necessarily be transformational on its own, you've got to think it would have that IKEA effect where it would signal to other developers outside of Jacksonville that we're an up and coming market worth investing in.
Still don't love the idea of turning the Flex Field over to the parks department, but the Jags mentioned that the facility would be available for public use for "300 days a year," suggesting that they still plan to utilize it to some extent. AND, whether they like it or not, if the Jags plan to build a five-star hotel across the street, the Jags have a vested interest in not allowing the flex field to turn into a giant grow room. If 2023 is the target for opening the new football operations facility, that gives us two years to jointly decide how to make the best use of the flex field.
If the Jags are revamping Met Park, there's got to be a way to incorporate the flex field. It's covered greenspace that literally opens up directly to Met Park (though across the street). There's got to be a cool way to integrate it.
As barn-like as she looks closed, she looks really nice open, and could be a genuine extension to Met Park and draw to the area if we can figure out the programming and funding.
(https://www.structurflex.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Dailys-Place-Flex-Field-Exterior-9.jpg)
The only thing that really seems to be missing from the Phase I vision is the entertainment component. Even though it was pretty clear from Lamping's comment today that the Cordish ship may have sailed, hoping we still see some alternate version of Jacksonville Live! make its way to the sports complex eventually to make the whole thing a little more approachable to the average citizen and to support the ancillarly development in the area (including MOSH, which should have its own news here in the next month or so).
Really great stuff overall today, and with how nasty 2020 and early 2021 got, it's encouraging to see both Curry and the Jags earning some redemption here this month with the gas tax and the new proposal.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 03, 2021, 09:47:34 PM
At this point, I'm going to trust the guy with $8 billion in the bank who owns the flagship Four Seasons and may soon own a second Four Seasons in Canada.
Not sure if you are implying Shad may soon own two Four Seasons in Canada or that the one in Toronto would be his second to one in Jax. Haven't read or found anything about him possibly having two in Canada. Where did you pick that up from? Did he mention it today?
If you were suggesting he doesn't yet own one in Canada, as an FYI, Shad bought the Four Seasons in Toronto in 2016.
QuoteJaguars owner Shad Khan buys Toronto hotel for $171 million
By Roger Bull
Posted Sep 30, 2016 at 9:55 AM
Jaguars owner Shad Khan has added yet another significant asset to his name. Through various family holdings, Khan bought the Four Seasons Hotel Toronto for $225 million Canadian dollars. That's $171.6 million in U.S. dollars.
The hotel had been owned by Kingdom Holding Co., based in Saudi Arabia.
The 55-story hotel has 211 guest rooms and 42 suites in Toronto's downtown Yorkville neighborhood and is the first Canadian hotel to receive five diamonds from AAA and five stars from Forbes. Rooms for Friday night, according to its website, start at $445 U.S....
The rendering of the Four Seasons vaguely reminded me of images from somewhere else. Then it hit me, it's like the end of many of the cruise ships today with their staggered decks!
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/342330_standard.jpeg)
(https://img1.10bestmedia.com/Images/Photos/384933/Oasis-of-the-Seas_54_990x660.jpg)
(https://media13.s-nbcnews.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Video/202103/1615982016241_tdy_news_7a_kerry_cruise_ships_210317_1920x1080.jpg)
Great points, Ken, and I largely concur. I pointed out on Twitter earlier that it would have been a genuine disaster to blow hundreds of millions on Lot J and then have them come back just months later for this proposal, which likely would have then seen similar terms. We could have been $6-700 million in (including interest) before even talking about the stadium renovations and then the second phases of Lot J and the Shipyards. The turnabout here has the opportunity to build a much more sustainable and productive relationship between the city and the team.
With that said, I look forward to DIA doing, and I mean
really doing, their due diligence on this deal and Riverfront. It might be tough to reconcile those plans with the work that's already been done for things like the Landing/Riverfront Plaza and Ford on Bay, not to mention the added factor of the quarter-billion we're spending on the U2C, but I think it's absolutely worth doing. And yeah, there definitely needs to be some kind of pathway to salvaging our investment in the flex field, especially if there are any renovations needed to make it more useful for other purposes.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 03, 2021, 09:47:34 PM
The only thing that really seems to be missing from the Phase I vision is the entertainment component. Even though it was pretty clear from Lamping's comment today that the Cordish ship may have sailed, hoping we still see some alternate version of Jacksonville Live! make its way to the sports complex eventually to make the whole thing a little more approachable to the average citizen and to support the ancillarly development in the area (including MOSH, which should have its own news here in the next month or so).
Really great stuff overall today, and with how nasty 2020 and early 2021 got, it's encouraging to see both Curry and the Jags earning some redemption here this month with the gas tax and the new proposal.
I've mentioned before that I think it would be in our interest to 1) go ahead and spend the $7 million on dealing with the retention pond next to Lot J. Best case, a new potential development spot (if they can figure out the antenna). Worst case, added parking to make up for whatever's being lost by all the other development. 2) examine the cost of remediating Lot J ourselves. and 3) explore the opportunity for Cordish to consider developing a more accurately-priced project on either the land we remediate or an alternative site. The insistence on "go go go" for the Lot J deal likely prevented a lot of nuance and compromise that could have resulted in a better project. Taking the time to really see what our options are and have a longer-term perspective on developing the neighborhood (not at the expense of the already developing areas of downtown) could be ideal.
And in terms of Curry & the Jags, definitely. There's a lot of excitement with Meyer & Lawrence, and a lot of optimism that they shouldn't squander with another rushed attempt at a bad deal. And Curry seems to be slowing down and thinking a little more about the kind of legacy he wants to leave, and even if I don't agree with him, I can at least respect that. Although who knows, maybe JEA could still drop a bomb on that.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 10:50:13 PM
Not sure if you are implying Shad may soon own two Four Seasons in Canada or that would the one in Toronto would be his second to one in Jax. Haven't read or found anything about him possibly having two in Canada. Where did you pick that up from? Did he mention it today?
Sorry, should have been more clear.
Back in January, a couple of city council members were told that Shad Khan had plans to purchase a second Four Seasons in Canada by end of 2021.
Wasn't specified whether it was Montreal or Whistler.
I don't think it was ever publicized.
But, depending on whether it pans out, if we do see Khan build a Four Seasons in Jax, it could potentially be his third.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 11:00:26 PM
The rendering of the Four Seasons vaguely reminded me of images from somewhere else. Then it hit me, it's like the end of many of the cruise ships today with their staggered decks!
Yep!
Khan and Lamping are big suckers for using boat-like design language for the Shipyards.
A little on the nose, but I dig it.
You can see the same concept in the original Shipyards renders from the Jags way back in 2015.
(https://images.adsttc.com/media/images/54e4/f094/e58e/cec9/5100/004b/large_jpg/SHIPYARDS_AERIAL_1_CREDIT_POPULOUS.jpg)
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 03, 2021, 11:14:42 PM
I've mentioned before that I think it would be in our interest to 1) go ahead and spend the $7 million on dealing with the retention pond next to Lot J. Best case, a new potential development spot (if they can figure out the antenna). Worst case, added parking to make up for whatever's being lost by all the other development. 2) examine the cost of remediating Lot J ourselves.
Great point here, Marcus.
Assuming Phase I of the Jags proposal makes it through the DIA - indications are that it makes it through fairly easily is in front of City Council by August - totally agree that covering the retention pond and re-routing stormwater would be $7 million well spent.
Speaking of parking, that's another thing that the Jags appear to have listened to and got right here.
With Phase 1, there doesn't seem to be any indication that the city will need to assume responsibility for any parking garages, which would have been a deal breaker to a guy like Danny Becton.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 03, 2021, 11:14:42 PM3) explore the opportunity for Cordish to consider developing a more accurately-priced project on either the land we remediate or an alternative site. The insistence on "go go go" for the Lot J deal likely prevented a lot of nuance and compromise that could have resulted in a better project.
With Cordish, though I think a Live! venue would be fantastic by the stadium, to me it's become increasingly clear over the last six months that they were a genuine bad actor when it came to Lot J.
Looking at the projects the City has partnered with the Jags on that didn't involve Cordish:
With the original round of stadium renovations, the Jags paid half and the city paid half. The agreement was fairly straightforward.
With the second round of stadium renovations (Daily's Place, club seats, flex field), the Jags paid half and the city paid half. The agreement was fairly straightforward.
With the new practice facility proposed, the Jags will pay half and the city will half. Should be a simple agreement.
With this new Shipyards Phase 1, the city throws in $20 million up front to get the site development ready and for partial improvements to the Riverwalk and marina, the Jags spend over $200 million in private investment, and then we give them a $30 million completion grant and $45 million in tax rebates over 20 years. Fairly simple and standard.
When it came to Lot J, however, it feels like Cordish was steering the ship. From the term sheet that mirrored bum deals Cordish made with other cities, to the economic impact study that was basically lifted from the "study" that Cordish's pet firm did for Arlington Live, to the Cordshy parking garage arrangements that other cities are still struggling with, to the contractual obligations to subsidize future development, in retrospect, the entire thing felt Cordish boilerplate, with the Jags basically acting as a middleman.
To me, it feels like Cordish saw Jacksonville as an easy mark to fleece with a lot available, free land to develop and milk over the next 20 years.
You could tell by Lamping's off hand comment today he doesn't have particularly warm feelings about Cordish when it comes to Lot J.
As Lot J fell apart in January, there was a buzz that the Jags were willing to make MAJOR concessions on things that Cordish was not, eventually leading to the downfall of the entire project.
Would love to see Jacksonville Live! at the Sports complex, but with some distance, Cordish did seem a bit parasitic.
Re: Cordish, all fair points. I guess that's why I said explore the opportunity. If it turns out that they're not interested in having a realistic discussion, then I don't see why we couldn't piecemeal the effort ourselves. It's not exactly Hudson Yards or anything. We could probably find some developers to parcel out two multifamily buildings, a hotel, and an entertainment complex to (assuming we couldn't, say, figure out a way to repurpose the flex field as such), especially seeing as they'd get to be across the street from the Jaguars and Four Seasons.
Hell, if we do it right, maybe we can take that experience and leverage it in the Northbank, LaVilla, or other neighborhoods.
So the REV grant will be from property taxes paid on the office building and hotel?
The city paying for remediation and some infrastructure is pretty normal considering they own the land. I don't think this is a massive commitment to stay in Jacksonville though. That $120 million facility comes to almost $1000 a SF. The land is free, too, so that is a massive amount. I have a hard time believing it will cost much more than the city's share in reality. The $4 million for Met Park is a rounding error in a project this big. The city's investment in the Jags will go up significantly thus making it harder to not accept whatever the Jags ask for when the stadium negotiations come up. The Jags commitment really is represented almost exclusively by the hotel and office building, and even that is subsidized.
The whole Flex field issue is just plain weird. Can someone explain why FOUR practice fields are necessary? The average person in Jacksonville that doesn't attend the games will see little benefit from this unless it really opens the door to a lot more development overall.
Someone mentioned that the idea of putting a convention center at the Shipyards was out of the picture, but there is clearly a 'Future phase' building on the river with a massive footprint, so I think it is still in the eventual plans.
While this is a lot better deal than Lot J, I would look very, very hard at the details and how the rubber is going to meet the road. Also, no 'bait and switch' renderings allowed as was done with Flex field.
While I'm not crazy about the quick abandonment of the Flex Field, I'm not sure it's such a big waste. IIRC, the Flex Field was funded as part of a $90 million project that included the club renovations, the new south end zone tunnel and the amphitheater. I would think the amphitheater and the club reno took up the lion's share of that figure. For context, UF's indoor practice facility, which is pretty much a pre-fab warehouse with a brick facade and some bay doors, cost $15 million. The flex field, which is essentially steel and stretched canvas, is even more bare bones than that. It's a waste to be tossing it aside so quickly, but I don't think it was the massive investment many are assuming. And with the Jaguars all the way out of it, it opens it up to more non-Jaguar events that were promised at construction but haven't really materialized.
Could the flex field not be converted to something similar to a Cordish Live Arena? Seems possible to me.
Quote from: JBTripper on June 04, 2021, 09:23:15 AM
While I'm not crazy about the quick abandonment of the Flex Field, I'm not sure it's such a big waste. IIRC, the Flex Field was funded as part of a $90 million project that included the club renovations, the new south end zone tunnel and the amphitheater. I would think the amphitheater and the club reno took up the lion's share of that figure. For context, UF's indoor practice facility, which is pretty much a pre-fab warehouse with a brick facade and some bay doors, cost $15 million. The flex field, which is essentially steel and stretched canvas, is even more bare bones than that. It's a waste to be tossing it aside so quickly, but I don't think it was the massive investment many are assuming. And with the Jaguars all the way out of it, it opens it up to more non-Jaguar events that were promised at construction but haven't really materialized.
Cost breakdown in the original agreement was:
- $45 million for the the amp
- $25 million for club seats
- $20 for the flex field
In reality, I'd imagine all three came in lower than that.
QuoteAnd with the Jaguars all the way out of it, it opens it up to more non-Jaguar events that were promised at construction but haven't really materialized.
The Jags still get to use it for 65 days out of the year. I have to wonder if FL/GA and Gator Bowl are not some of those days.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 04, 2021, 09:13:11 AM
The whole Flex field issue is just plain weird. Can someone explain why FOUR practice fields are necessary? The average person in Jacksonville that doesn't attend the games will see little benefit from this unless it really opens the door to a lot more development overall.
3-4 fields does seem to be the number I see in the NFL. The Falcons have 3 outdoor fields with 1 indoor. Now, them (like a number of NFL teams) have their facility WAY outside of the City. The Falcons are in Flowery Branch, 45+ miles from their stadium. This is actually very common in the NFL (and yes, some of the small communities have contributed tax money fur building it.
There's admittedly a part of me that's pleasantly surprised the Jags DIDN'T go that route. That doesn't mean throw the book at them, but I like the fact that the facility is adjacent to the stadium (and I really don't get the practical logistics of having a training facility that far from your home stadium).
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 04, 2021, 12:32:46 AM
As Lot J fell apart in January, there was a buzz that the Jags were willing to make MAJOR concessions on things that Cordish was not, eventually leading to the downfall of the entire project.
Correct.
Ie, Jags were fine with being transparent with the financials, Cordish was not.
Yes. Lamping said during question period, this will be much better than Lot J with only 2 parties involved. Cordish was an issue with financial transparency and negotiations, but Iguana and City both taking a better approach on this.
I'm sure Khan/Iguana will finance their portion of the investment, but given his net worth this is much like buying a house or a car for the "average" person. Look at the ask for Phase 1. If Ken is correct this less than the D&B incentives.
Curry on the new development vs. Lot J, from the Biz Journal.
Quote"I think it's a lesson learned coming out of Lot J. I'm grateful that we had 12 votes. The reality is we needed 13 votes on it. And, maybe, if we had done some things a little bit differently — as this process has been — maybe it would have passed."
It's not much, but about as close as I've ever seen to Curry accepting a small sliver of blame for something.
I like it.
Curry's got a real chance here between now and 2023 to earn some redemption.
Between the gas tax, his early approach to this new development, and his calmer approach on social media from what I've seen, I'm liking 2021 Curry a lot more than 2019-2020 Curry.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 05, 2021, 10:39:16 AM
Curry on the new development vs. Lot J, from the Biz Journal.
Quote"I think it's a lesson learned coming out of Lot J. I'm grateful that we had 12 votes. The reality is we needed 13 votes on it. And, maybe, if we had done some things a little bit differently — as this process has been — maybe it would have passed."
It's not much, but about as close as I've ever seen to Curry accepting a small sliver of blame for something.
I like it.
Curry's got a real chance here between now and 2023 to earn some redemption.
Between the gas tax, his early approach to this new development, and his calmer approach on social media from what I've seen, I'm liking 2021 Curry a lot more than 2019-2020 Curry.
I don't. Send him packing. And don't come back.
And now this:
Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel
The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.
...
If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/)
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2021, 08:59:31 AM
And now this:
Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel
The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.
...
If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/)
Quite hilarious given that "according to people familiar with the matter" (pulling my inner MSM lingo), the reason Curry bought out Sleiman to turn the Landing into a wasteland was to do a potential landswap for the original Shipyards development with Khan.
The perils of not or refusing to work with what you already have. This redevelopment thing becomes a lot easier, less time consuming and much more affordable when looking at the entire downtown area holistically, understanding what we can and can't do with certain spaces and then coordinating adaptive reuse and infill projects within those parameters and guidelines. These are certain elements of a master planning process that the CRA plan largely lacked.
Imagine moving forward with a project like this without having to beg another agency for a land swap or repaying $21 million to renege on a deal? How far could that $21 million stretch into actually paying for the improvement of a space like the Landing site, JWJ Park, Metropolitan Park, streetscaping, improved lighting, etc.? How much time and money are we wasting and throwing away on trying to force things in and on to sites where we made deals to do the opposite under previous administrations? When we talk about streamlining government, this is one area where it can easily be done with planning properly and sticking to those plans long term.
^ Here we go again. How long have the Mayor, DIA and Khan known about the terms of this agreement and not put it in front of the public eye? If they were not aware before now, it's just another example of their collective incompetence in doing proper due diligence.
Depending on the answer, they look either disingenuous or foolish. Not good optics either way.
We also need to recognize that if we "swap" shipyard land for the Kids Kampus, that we are effectively giving Khan at least another $21 million in public value over the initial total of about $153.5 million ($93.5 million in various incentives and $60 million for the City's half of the practice facilities).
Nate Monroe also notes that valuable storm water credits and getting hung with the existing Daily's practice field are among the add-ons not accounted for yet.
Check out these excerpts (emphasis added) of Monroe's recap:
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2021/06/04/jaguars-shad-khan-finds-new-allies-downtown-development-nate-monroe/7529123002/
Quote
....Khan is asking taxpayers to contribute about $93.5 million in various incentives to help build the five-star hotel (Khan hopes, but does appear to have guaranteed, it will be a Four Seasons), a 6-story office building, and a revamped marina, according to a term sheet Khan's business team provided to the Downtown Investment Authority. The $93.5 million includes environmental remediation, infrastructure costs and about $4.5 million of public land.
The bulk of the taxpayer contribution will take the form of a $44 million property-tax rebate and a $28 million completion grant, which are both incentives paid out on the back end of construction.
The city will directly contribute to the construction costs for the marina, but Khan appears to be the financier of the hotel and office construction. That is a major change and an important one particularly on the office building, since the Jaguars themselves plan to use two of the six floors.
Asked about what level of commitment the Four Seasons has made — the brand Khan and Lamping associate with the project — Khan gave a bit of a winding non-answer, and the term sheet his development team submitted only commits them to a five-star hotel of unspecified branding.
Khan will also commit to a $4 million, 20-year agreement to maintain what remains on 14 acres of Metropolitan Park.
The Jaguars also want the city to split the cost of a new practice facility, with the city and Jaguars each contributing $60 million. The facility is the brainchild of head coach Urban Meyer, but it's also, for Khan, a way of acknowledging another complaint about Lot J: It did nothing to address elephant in the room — the aging stadium and the long-term lease extension attached to a rebuild or renovation of it. For the city, securing a lease extension is the real end game.
Khan and Lamping have framed the practice facility as the first step in the direction of ultimately renovating TIAA Bank Field, but they haven't suggested any extension is directly tied to the city's contribution to the facility.
There are still some outstanding questions the team will need to address, and a few less-flattering points worth considering even as this more reasonable plan is likely to sail through the City Council:
- For now, the much-touted Four Seasons brand appears to be speculative, even if Khan is confident he can eventually bring one here. It's possible the city will be asked to commit to incentivizing this project without possessing any binding agreement committing the Four Seasons to Jacksonville.
Khan didn't give a firm answer when asked directly by a Times-Union reporter what commitment he had secured, and the term sheet his business team put together notably commits his development team only to building a "five-star hotel," without specifying a brand.
Jacksonville would be a novel market for a Four Seasons, widely recognized to be one of the highest-end hotels in the world. Downtown Jacksonville is less developed and possesses far less concentrated wealth than a typical place the Four Seasons would consider. And unlike the smaller cities that do house a Four Seasons, Jacksonville is not a tourism destination or a resort town. Khan acknowledged Thursday the return for such a hotel would likely be minimal.
- The Jaguars have repeatedly insisted their plans don't infringe upon Metropolitan Park, but that depends on reinterpreting what the park includes, particularly the site of the former Kids Kampus. City documents have previously described the park being as large as 23 acres, or 24.7 acres, and today 18 acres. The Jaguars, however, are focused on preserving only 14 acres that are protected by an agreement with the National Park Service. Perhaps that's fine, and perhaps it's not, but it's disingenuous to flatly declare the plan doesn't eat away at space previously understood to be part of Metropolitan Park, or to imply, as Lamping did Thursday, people who believe that are mistaken.
- A report commissioned by Khan's development team concluded late last year Metropolitan Park and the entire area are incredibly vulnerable to sea-level rise and storm surge, and that much of the existing protection in the area, like bulkheads, have exceeded their useful life. The report recommended any development include "state-of-the-art" drainage systems and consider elevations several feet above where they are today.
But the term sheet Khan's team submitted asks the city to help him use an administrative loophole — so-called "storm water credits" — to be in compliance with local law. That needs to be explained further, as do any plans the Jaguars might have to bolster flood protection at the site. Any taxpayer investment in the area should be protected by more than a paperwork box-checking exercise, just as Khan's own report recommended.
There is also monetary value to storm water credits — possibly significant value depending on the level of cover required — should the city provide Khan with them. But the potential value of that city-provided incentive was not included in the return-on-investment calculation the Jaguars completed for the city.
- The construction of the practice facility would render the flex field useless to the Jaguars, even though it was built just a few years ago as part of a $90 million series of upgrades for which the city contributed half. The team is prepared to cede that facility back to the city, which on its face might look to be a good thing. But the city already has tremendous trouble programming the parks and facilities it possesses now (see: Metropolitan Park). The flex field, which is attached to the amphitheater, is at risk of becoming a white elephant — a building in need of constant upkeep but without much practical use — if the city doesn't carefully plan and fund a way to keep that brand-new building relevant....
Quote from: WarDamJagFan on June 08, 2021, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2021, 08:59:31 AM
And now this:
Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel
The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.
...
If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/)
Quite hilarious given that "according to people familiar with the matter" (pulling my inner MSM lingo), the reason Curry bought out Sleiman to turn the Landing into a wasteland was to do a potential landswap for the original Shipyards development with Khan.
Depends on why the ban on development exist. If it is to be sure the marina remains accessible to the general pubic that appears to be the case. I believe they called this a public marina and it will have a dock building open to both local and transit boaters. Also appears to have a road down to dock area. Not sure, but let's see how this plays out.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on June 08, 2021, 08:59:31 AM
And now this:
Quote
Jacksonville would need state approval for land swap to clear way for Four Seasons Hotel
The state Department of Environmental Protection will be among the agencies that Jaguars owner Shad Khan's plans for a Four Seasons Hotel must go through because a grant the city won in 1985 for building a marina does not allow such development on the land eyed by Khan.
...
If the state were to refuse to do a land swap, another option would be to repay the state for the grant. That would come at a much higher cost than the original grant amount because the state would charge interest. Boyer said the figure the state recently gave for the repayment amount is $21 million.
https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/06/08/florida-dep-would-need-ok-land-swap-shad-khans-four-seasons-hotel/7592365002/)
There's gotta be a way around this; Shad needs to figure this thing out; and yesterday!
I imagine Ron DeSantis' DEP is likely to be more amenable than the National Park Service, but I suppose we'll see. Kinda embarrassing that they wouldn't get clarification on this kind of thing before doing all the rendering and making the flashy presentation.
Unless, this is like what happened with the NPS and they already have an answer...
Couple of notes on this:
1) In addition to the $200k the Jags have commit to Met Park, a 2% fee will be assessed to all hotel stays at Four Seasons (which won't be cheap), with that fund going into a joint COJ/Jags account for upkeep and programming at Met Park, the marina, and the adjacent Riverwalk. The Jags will oversee all upkeep.
2) The Jags want Met Park to become a destination for large music festivals.
3) The development is shaped to work around environmental obstacles, and resiliency measures should double as remediation solved. Iguana thinks actual remediation necessary will be minimal.
4) Agreement is structured so that the Jags will need to move relatively quickly on Phase 2 (Baptist Center and residential) if they want to develop it after the hotel is complete.
5) Jags will partner with the city on programming the Flex Field.
More I learn about this deal, the more I like it.
Jags start first of their ~15 Town Halls tonight. Looks like Lamping may be personally hosting many of them. Good for him.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 15, 2021, 05:55:16 PM
Couple of notes on this:
1) In addition to the $200k the Jags have commit to Met Park, a 2% fee will be assessed to all hotel stays at Four Seasons (which won't be cheap), with that fund going into a joint COJ/Jags account for upkeep and programming at Met Park, the marina, and the adjacent Riverwalk. The Jags will oversee all upkeep.
2) The Jags want Met Park to become a destination for large music festivals.
3) The development is shaped to work around environmental obstacles, and resiliency measures should double as remediation solved. Iguana thinks actual remediation necessary will be minimal.
4) Agreement is structured so that the Jags will need to move relatively quickly on Phase 2 (Baptist Center and residential) if they want to develop it after the hotel is complete.
5) Jags will partner with the city on programming the Flex Field.
More I learn about this deal, the more I like it.
Jags start first of their ~15 Town Halls tonight. Looks like Lamping may be personally hosting many of them. Good for him.
So far I like what I am hearing and seeing as well. Hope it works out for all concerned, especially the citizens of Jacksonville.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVh6RJR6/48-BACC55-AFA8-4-DE2-A1-AD-A5-D8110-D5-F85.jpg)
Based on conversations the DIA is having with the state, it feels like plans are starting to take shape with the Shipyards.
Looking at the map above, the Maxwell House Lot and Hogans West parcels (basically the Westernmost ~10 acres of the Shipyards) will be almost exclusively park space, if the state approves a land swap with the old Kids Campus space. Little, if any, private development on these parcels.
MOSH will take up four acres on the Eastern portion of the Shipyards (Lot X/Hogans East).
Jags Phase 2 (Baptist ortho center + residential) will be between MOSH and the Five Star hotel & office.
Hmm, any discussion about reconnecting the Eastside with the riverfront that was stolen from it? At a minimum, I'd hope these plans would allow for public access along A. Philip Randolph, extending straight down to the riverfront as opposed to being blocked off by a museum or parking lot.
To be discussed by the DIA board on July 7th.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-board-to-consider-jaguars-kids-kampus-shipyards-proposal-july-7
Development agreement approved by DIA subcommittee today.
Goes before the full DIA for approval right after the July 4th holiday.
Should sail through.
P.S. DIA has been talking about Catherine Street as a landing spot for the fire museum.
Apparently they've selected a location on Bay Street, near Catherine, instead.
Sounds like it might be on the Western Shipyards side.
Here's a conceptual plan from the duPont effort:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XGwghqB/0/X3/i-XGwghqB-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-wJbsnQx/0/X3/i-wJbsnQx-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zNDkMWn/0/X3/i-zNDkMWn-X3.jpg)
^ DuPont effort looks promising and I hope the City gets behind it. Would love to include the old City Hall-Courthouse property in the plans and then connect to the Landing property. All this green space will greatly increase the success and value of the rest of Downtown if it gets built out this way.
^More of what happens when you don't have a MASTER PLAN (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/for-real-though-downtown-jax-needs-a-master-plan/).
Four Seasons approved today by DIA full board, as expected. 30 day disposition for competing bids is next, then on to City Council once that requirement is met.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/)
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 07, 2021, 04:19:59 PM
Four Seasons approved today by DIA full board, as expected. 30 day disposition for competing bids is next, then on to City Council once that requirement is met.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/)
First time I've seen a price tag put on the new Shipyards park.
$25 million.
Looking forward to seeing the more detailed plans.
The detailed plans are the plans being developed by duPont.
Can the proposed plans be done for $25M? They're...nice.
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 07, 2021, 04:19:59 PM
Four Seasons approved today by DIA full board, as expected. 30 day disposition for competing bids is next, then on to City Council once that requirement is met.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/)
Awesome awesome news. We ain't throwing the dirt with the shovels yet?
Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 07, 2021, 06:58:24 PM
Quote from: jaxoNOLE on July 07, 2021, 04:19:59 PM
Four Seasons approved today by DIA full board, as expected. 30 day disposition for competing bids is next, then on to City Council once that requirement is met.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/07/dia-votes-to-approve-114-million-in-incentives-for-shipyards-project/)
First time I've seen a price tag put on the new Shipyards park.
$25 million.
Looking forward to seeing the more detailed plans.
The way I read the quote in the article, the $25 million may include $6 million for moving the fire museum and the balance just for rebuilding/extending the Northbank Riverwalk. I am guessing more dollars might be needed to fully develop a park at the Shipyards. It would be good to get more clarification for sure. Too many times these reporters focus more on attention grabbing headlines while failing to nail down more details in a rush to get their stories out.
QuoteThe rendering shows something else: Redoing the Northbank Riverwalk. The proposal is to tie in the entire area from Metropolitan Park to the old Jacksonville Landing site, which is now called Riverfront Plaza.
There will be a cost to the city, first to move the fire museum -- about $6 million. But the upfront cost could run $25 million.