Metro Jacksonville

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dollar1-1-billion-riverfront-master-plan-proposed-for-downtown-jacksonville

QuoteJacksonville developer Steve Atkins says he wants to lead a nearly $1.1 billion redevelopment of mostly city-owned property, including the former Jacksonville Landing, on a stretch of the Downtown Northbank riverfront.

Atkins, who is SouthEast Development Group LLC managing director, says he will try to persuade the city and Downtown Investment Authority to pay for $536 million in a public-private partnership to build 1.8 million square feet of space from the former Jacksonville Landing to the former Duval County Courthouse and old City Hall site, rebranded in 2020 by DIA as The Ford on Bay.

A June 1 news release says the total development will have 2.3 million total square feet of programmable space including exterior facilities with a $559 million private investment.

More photos available here: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/photo-gallery-more-images-of-riverfront-jacksonville

Credit where it's due, it looks very cool:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/341980_standard.jpeg?itok=5tFnz6N5)

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/341981_standard.jpeg)

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/341982_standard.jpeg)

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/341984_standard.jpeg)

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/341985_standard.jpeg)

And there are some interesting details:

QuoteWhat's in the Riverfront Jacksonville proposal

• The Bend: A "signature monumental art work" made of teak that anchors the project's public park space. At least 15 acres of park space is planned with artwork, golf greens, gardens, walkways and the Northbank Riverwalk.

• Building B: 120,000-square-foot, mixed-use commercial office building with a ground-level restaurant and retail at former Jacksonville Landing site.

• Building C: 14-level, 100-unit residential condominium with ground-floor wellness center and retail spaces at the former Jacksonville Landing site.

• Building D: 208-room hotel and two-level retail food hall called "30 North."

• Buildings E and F: Commercial space with "healthy environment" technologies including retractable outer glass walls.

• Multifamily apartments and residential condominiums at the site of the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront parking garage.

• Building G: 500,000-square-foot exhibition, entertainment, convention center with ground-level retail and entertainment and rooftop spaces.

• Building H: 27-level, 410-unit multifamily and condominium tower with 50,000 square feet of ground-level retail.

• A marina and with two-level Boathouse restaurant.

But I'm not sure how prepared we are to pay for it.

Wow that is absolutely incredible. That's the Downtown Jacksonville of my dreams that I've been waiting for 33 years to come true. Unfortunately, one thing I have learned in those 33 years is to never get my hopes up for these plans to actually come true.

Nice renderings. This is what master planning looks like and it's what the DIA has failed to show to date. However, from what I can tell, there are no agreements with Hyatt, the DIA or City at this point for anything shown. There are also multiple competing plans and visions out there, with no transparent path of how they all fit and/or don't fit together, which further solidifies the need for a real master plan. Overall, my impression is that nothing in the concepts are real. Only visionary and that these parcels would have to be master developed out....aka the District (or whatever it is called now) and what should have been done with the Shipyards more than a decade ago.

QuotePlans for Riverfront Jacksonville announced
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Steve-Atkins-Riverfront-Plans/i-XSbNjxn/0/03ea6595/L/The%20Bend-L.jpg)
$1.1B Master Plan Proposed For Jacksonville's Northbank Riverfront.

Read More:https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/plans-for-riverfront-jacksonville-announced/

Such a smart, comprehensive plan.

Kind of a best case scenario if Atkins can pull this one off.

Addresses so many things - riverfront park space, view corridors, parking, resiliency, the Landing site, convention center, marina, etc - in one holistic vision.

Plus, unlike projects like Lot J, it sounds like Goldman Sachs and Piper Sandler Companies are willing to privately fund the development upfront, with city contribution coming over time.

Per the Daily Record article, Hyatt is on board, and as far as I know, Spandrell has nothing in writing with the city for the Ford on Bay property.

Will be fascinating to see how the Jags respond to the plan.

On one hand, it could be transformational for downtown. On the other hand, it's a massive public ask that potentially competes for funds that might otherwise go into Shipyard/Met Park.

Great stuff.

The sub-aqueous parking gives me pause. It is a clever idea to use the parking structure to capture surge flooding. Making sure all the vehicles are removed seems quite the challenge. How far in advance of the expected flooding event do you call the evacuation of the vehicles?   How do you notify all the owners of the vehicles? Anyway, that's why there are lawyers.

Observations on the spiffy renderings.
* The Water Street / Newnan Street ramp is gone.
* The Hyatt annex (former State Office Building) is gone.
* Independent Drive / Water Street is straightened out between Laura and Hogan, replacing and widening Sister Cities Plaza, and the roundabout is gone.  Isn't that where a new hotel was supposed to go, on the north side of Independent Drive, removing Sister Cities Plaza?
* The list of buildings shows "C" as  a "14-level, 100-unit residential condominium with ground-floor wellness center and retail spaces at the former Jacksonville Landing site." But the rendering appears considerably shorter than 14 levels. With the Wells Fargo tower at 37 floors, Building "C" should be closer to half its height, and it appears to be barely taller than the "pyramid" section (about 7 floors?).

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 01, 2021, 01:46:56 PM

* Independent Drive / Water Street is straightened out between Laura and Hogan, replacing and widening Sister Cities Plaza, and the roundabout is gone.  Isn't that where a new hotel was supposed to go, on the north side of Independent Drive, removing Sister Cities Plaza?

The City is currently in the process of taking back the Sisters City parcel, and the plan is to eliminate Sisters City and realign Independent/Water in order to increase the potential PAD space on Lenny's Lawn.

Things like the street realignment, elimination of the Independent Dr ramp to the Main Street bridge, etc are all part of the hidden costs we've talked about on this site that makes the $25 million 'investment' into tearing down the Landing only a footnote into the actual taxpayer costs that will be spent to ultimately redevelop this site.


"Throwing money, nearly $12 million, at special interests while kids are being gunned down in the street because of fewer cops is not simply outrageous it's disgusting."
-Current City of Jacksonville Chief Administrative Officer Brian Hughes on former Mayor Alvin Brown's request to use $11.8mm in taxpayer money to fund a redevelopment of the Landing site... including $8.5mm for a waterfront park, fountain, stage and shade canopies.

Quote from: fieldafm on June 01, 2021, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 01, 2021, 01:46:56 PM
Observations on the spiffy renderings.

* Independent Drive / Water Street is straightened out between Laura and Hogan, replacing and widening Sister Cities Plaza, and the roundabout is gone.  Isn't that where a new hotel was supposed to go, on the north side of Independent Drive, removing Sister Cities Plaza?

The City is currently in the process of taking back the Sisters City parcel, and the current plan is to eliminate Sisters City and realign Independent/Water in order to increase the potential PAD space on Lenny's Lawn.

Things like the street realignment, elimination of the Independent Dr ramp to the Main Street bridge, etc are all part of the hidden costs we've talked about on this site that makes the $25 million 'investment' into tearing down the Landing only a footnote into the actual taxpayer costs to ultimately redevelop this site.

Interesting.  Does that include removing the roundabout at Laura?  Could be a way to 'remove' the Andy statue.  Are there any discussions about the Main Street ramp to Water and Newnan Streets?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 01, 2021, 02:05:48 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on June 01, 2021, 01:57:31 PM

Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 01, 2021, 01:46:56 PM
Observations on the spiffy renderings.

* Independent Drive / Water Street is straightened out between Laura and Hogan, replacing and widening Sister Cities Plaza, and the roundabout is gone.  Isn't that where a new hotel was supposed to go, on the north side of Independent Drive, removing Sister Cities Plaza?

The City is currently in the process of taking back the Sisters City parcel, and the current plan is to eliminate Sisters City and realign Independent/Water in order to increase the potential PAD space on Lenny's Lawn.

Things like the street realignment, elimination of the Independent Dr ramp to the Main Street bridge, etc are all part of the hidden costs we've talked about on this site that makes the $25 million 'investment' into tearing down the Landing only a footnote into the actual taxpayer costs to ultimately redevelop this site.

Interesting.  Does that include removing the roundabout at Laura?  Could be a way to 'remove' the Andy statue.  Are there any discussions about the Main Street ramp to Water and Newnan Streets?

Not that I've seen in regards to Water/Newnan ramp (that would be disastrous for stadium traffic)... but with the elimination of the Main St ramp at Independent Dr, the roundabout at Laura could be removed. My understanding is that the three design teams hired by DIA for the former Landing redevelopment have been told to provide plans that includes the roundabout staying and going. 

Frankly there aren't really any concrete discussions on most of Atkins' renderings and name drops released today.

By the end of this week, the Jaguars will release new development plans.
By the end of this month, DIA will release three plans they paid to have designed for Lenny's Lawn.
Either this month or next month, Spandrel will likely be releasing some modified plans for the Ford on Bay site.

Today was just one of many persons wishlist displayed in rendering form.

73% of people who whinge of the removal of The Landing are still upset that people didn't embrace Waterworld as a classic piece of cinema.  ;-)

No mention of the "gotta have" U2C?  I thought it was going to be the key to development Downtown  8)  but this suggests it's not all that important. 

In fact, in the images showing the Skyway (to the far left), it shows no ramp down to Bay Street going toward the Stadium.  What if we repurposed the $247 million in U2C funding toward the infrastructure needs for this type of plan?  Seems it would be a much better investment.

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/341981_standard.jpeg)

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/341995_standard.jpeg?itok=npXLPbd4)

If one thing comes from this it should be that Spandrel get sent packing. Over 15 months since they announced their cookie cutter apartments and not a thing. Bye Felicia.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 01, 2021, 02:40:21 PM
No mention of the "gotta have" U2C?  I thought it was going to be the key to development Downtown  8)  but this suggests it's not all that important. 

In fact, in the images showing the Skyway (to the far left), it shows no ramp down to Bay Street going toward the Stadium.  What if we repurposed the $247 million in U2C funding toward the infrastructure needs for this type of plan?  Seems it would be a much better investment.

You can't ramp the Skyway down Bay without blocking either Hogan, Laura or Bread and Board Provisions and VyStar's new Bread and Burger breezeway. The DIA also won't let them ramp down Hogan Street, which would block the Emerald Trail project and interfere with Landing redevelopment plans. This is something that JTA has not figured out how to address yet and why some have mentioned exploring silly ideas like using elevators.

Quote from: bl8jaxnative on June 01, 2021, 02:32:36 PM

73% of people who whinge of the removal of The Landing are still upset that people didn't embrace Waterworld as a classic piece of cinema.  ;-)

Ok, boomer

Includes a non-convention center convention center  ;D:

QuoteThe plans include a 500,000-square-foot exhibition hall where the City Hall annex used to stand. That facility, which would be owned by the city, would be connected to the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront, which Atkins said his development group has been working with.

That site has been mooted as the home of a convention center in the past, but Atkins stressed that space is not a convention center — a project that has received pushback from the mayor's office.

"This is a much smaller space and a much more economically feasible space," Atkins said. "It is not addressed as a convention center. It's addressed as a large entertainment and exhibition space that's very flexible."

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/01/atkins-downtown-riverfront.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90561680&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=NjczLVVXWS0yMjkAAAF9ZwtNn4FIwsDrugqrIbtjPoHGaxYVBKWBrzr6r7ms2Jl3_6sHMwAYdlp323Jngef6nsOBrsBcUfijHTvt1559i41TG-tveu6PZVi9Cb8XfnPVNoSX (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/01/atkins-downtown-riverfront.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90561680&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=NjczLVVXWS0yMjkAAAF9ZwtNn4FIwsDrugqrIbtjPoHGaxYVBKWBrzr6r7ms2Jl3_6sHMwAYdlp323Jngef6nsOBrsBcUfijHTvt1559i41TG-tveu6PZVi9Cb8XfnPVNoSX)

Nice renderings. Going to wager this will make the local and social media rounds and absolutely none of it will come to fruition. The Jax way.

Quote from: fieldafm on June 01, 2021, 02:13:12 PM

By the end of this month, DIA will release three plans they paid to have designed for Lenny's Lawn.
Either this month or next month, Spandrel will likely be releasing some modified plans for the Ford on Bay site.

Today was just one of many persons wishlist displayed in rendering form.

If the DIA and City had a solid track record vetting such opportunities, we'd be jumping for joy and lauding the benefits of healthy competition to produce the best possible outcome. Competing plans are great assets in the hands of competent leadership. Can we turn these into assets, or will we once again waste everyone's time?

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 01, 2021, 03:35:44 PM
Includes a non-convention center convention center  ;D:

QuoteThe plans include a 500,000-square-foot exhibition hall where the City Hall annex used to stand. That facility, which would be owned by the city, would be connected to the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront, which Atkins said his development group has been working with.

That site has been mooted as the home of a convention center in the past, but Atkins stressed that space is not a convention center — a project that has received pushback from the mayor's office.

"This is a much smaller space and a much more economically feasible space," Atkins said. "It is not addressed as a convention center. It's addressed as a large entertainment and exhibition space that's very flexible."

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/01/atkins-downtown-riverfront.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90561680&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=NjczLVVXWS0yMjkAAAF9ZwtNn4FIwsDrugqrIbtjPoHGaxYVBKWBrzr6r7ms2Jl3_6sHMwAYdlp323Jngef6nsOBrsBcUfijHTvt1559i41TG-tveu6PZVi9Cb8XfnPVNoSX (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/01/atkins-downtown-riverfront.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90561680&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=NjczLVVXWS0yMjkAAAF9ZwtNn4FIwsDrugqrIbtjPoHGaxYVBKWBrzr6r7ms2Jl3_6sHMwAYdlp323Jngef6nsOBrsBcUfijHTvt1559i41TG-tveu6PZVi9Cb8XfnPVNoSX)

I agree with Atkins that adding an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt makes sense. It doesn't need to be anywhere close to 500k square feet though but the floor plate should be larger than the Prime Osborn's exhibition hall. With that, combined with the Hyatt's meeting facilities, the Prime Osborn can be closed as a convention center (and converted back into a train station) and Jax should not have to talk about needing a convention center again for another generation or two (anywhere in the area, including the shipyards and metropolitan park).

Looking at the renderings, looks like the roundabout with the Andrew Jackson statue will be removed at Laura/Water and I'm assuming it's being moved to the roundabout at Hogan and Water, per the rendering. Obviously all still conceptual.

Interesting to see where the entrance/exit points will be for the garages.

Didn't see any integration with U2C...I digress.

More Disney renderings?  We have seen soooo many of these over the years... you guys could do a huge article just describing all the various renderings for various phantom projects, parks, and buildings. I hope this is different but I have said that more than I care to think...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 01, 2021, 04:39:24 PM
More Disney renderings?  We have seen soooo many of these over the years... you guys could do a huge article just describing all the various renderings for various phantom projects, parks, and buildings. I hope this is different but I have said that more than I care to think...

Get it done Lake  ;D

I like seeing Independent Dr straightened out and the park extended to the Hyatt. Is there any reason convention centers cannot be vertical? Thinking of Seattle. I guess if connected to the 2nd floor of the Hyatt it could be a bigger footprint. Always wanted to ask, but what is the structure next to the Hyatt? Is that a parking structure? Looks like it is gone in the renderings.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 01, 2021, 07:05:02 PM
I like seeing Independent Dr straightened out and the park extended to the Hyatt. Is there any reason convention centers cannot be vertical? Thinking of Seattle. I guess if connected to the 2nd floor of the Hyatt it could be a bigger footprint. Always wanted to ask, but what is the structure next to the Hyatt? Is that a parking structure? Looks like it is gone in the renderings.

The existing structure was built as a garage under an office building for the State of Florida's regional offices.  Originally called the Daniel State Office Building and designed by prominent architect, William Morgan, who also designed JSO's HQ's. 

I remember seeing Jimmy Carter make a campaign stop speech from its balcony facing a Downtown lunch crowd lining Coast Line Drive.  It also was once the finish line for the Gate River Run in the early years as I recall.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 01, 2021, 01:31:24 PM
Such a smart, comprehensive plan.

Kind of a best case scenario if Atkins can pull this one off.

Addresses so many things - riverfront park space, view corridors, parking, resiliency, the Landing site, convention center, marina, etc - in one holistic vision.

Plus, unlike projects like Lot J, it sounds like Goldman Sachs and Piper Sandler Companies are willing to privately fund the development upfront, with city contribution coming over time.

Per the Daily Record article, Hyatt is on board, and as far as I know, Spandrell has nothing in writing with the city for the Ford on Bay property.

Will be fascinating to see how the Jags respond to the plan.

On one hand, it could be transformational for downtown. On the other hand, it's a massive public ask that potentially competes for funds that might otherwise go into Shipyard/Met Park.

Great stuff.

Gensler, one of the biggest architectural firms in the world, Goldman Sachs, one of the world's biggest investment banks. Makes Cordish Companies look like single A ball and Spandrel like peewee. Getting big names like that in their corner is definitely reassuring. These companies aren't getting behind fantasy projects and cowboy developers.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 01, 2021, 07:05:02 PM
Always wanted to ask, but what is the structure next to the Hyatt? Is that a parking structure? Looks like it is gone in the renderings.

That is the former Daniel State Office Building designed by William Morgan and built in 1979. It was designed so that residents could enjoy the views of the St Johns River, with each floor containing an outdoor plaza. It was designed at a time when Morgan was building things that resembled Central American pyramids.  The rooftop of the riverfront entrance was actually an amphitheater and covered tensile pavilion.

When the Hyatt was constructed, the building was given to the original developer and the amphitheater was removed. The existing parking garage integrated within the original structure serves as the parking facilities for the Hyatt, and the former office space and outdoor terraces serve as event/meeting/convention spaces for the Hyatt. The facility is 100% critical to the hotel's operations.

(https://www.jacksonville.com/galleryimage/LK/20160121/PHOTOGALLERY/301219897/PH/0/3/PH-301219897.jpg&maxW=900&maxH=900&cacheBuster=%7BDF0D05CC-D6CC-489B-9822-C63C113F2BF6%7D)

Above- then.  Below- now.

(https://assets.hyatt.com/content/dam/hyatt/hyattdam/images/2016/01/25/1059/Hyatt-Regency-Jacksonville-Riverfront-P104-River-Deck-Reception.jpg/Hyatt-Regency-Jacksonville-Riverfront-P104-River-Deck-Reception.16x9.jpg?imwidth=1280)

Quote from: landfall on June 01, 2021, 07:18:27 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 01, 2021, 01:31:24 PM
Such a smart, comprehensive plan.

Kind of a best case scenario if Atkins can pull this one off.

Addresses so many things - riverfront park space, view corridors, parking, resiliency, the Landing site, convention center, marina, etc - in one holistic vision.

Plus, unlike projects like Lot J, it sounds like Goldman Sachs and Piper Sandler Companies are willing to privately fund the development upfront, with city contribution coming over time.

Per the Daily Record article, Hyatt is on board, and as far as I know, Spandrell has nothing in writing with the city for the Ford on Bay property.

Will be fascinating to see how the Jags respond to the plan.

On one hand, it could be transformational for downtown. On the other hand, it's a massive public ask that potentially competes for funds that might otherwise go into Shipyard/Met Park.

Great stuff.

Gensler, one of the biggest architectural firms in the world, Goldman Sachs, one of the world's biggest investment banks. Makes Cordish Companies look like single A ball and Spandrel like peewee. Getting big names like that in their corner is definitely reassuring. These companies aren't getting behind fantasy projects and cowboy developers.

I'd caution getting too excited about these renderings or the name dropping today.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2021, 04:19:52 PM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 01, 2021, 03:35:44 PM
Includes a non-convention center convention center  ;D:

QuoteThe plans include a 500,000-square-foot exhibition hall where the City Hall annex used to stand. That facility, which would be owned by the city, would be connected to the Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront, which Atkins said his development group has been working with.

That site has been mooted as the home of a convention center in the past, but Atkins stressed that space is not a convention center — a project that has received pushback from the mayor's office.

"This is a much smaller space and a much more economically feasible space," Atkins said. "It is not addressed as a convention center. It's addressed as a large entertainment and exhibition space that's very flexible."

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/01/atkins-downtown-riverfront.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90561680&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=NjczLVVXWS0yMjkAAAF9ZwtNn4FIwsDrugqrIbtjPoHGaxYVBKWBrzr6r7ms2Jl3_6sHMwAYdlp323Jngef6nsOBrsBcUfijHTvt1559i41TG-tveu6PZVi9Cb8XfnPVNoSX (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/06/01/atkins-downtown-riverfront.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews_breakingnews&j=90561680&t=Breaking%20News&mkt_tok=NjczLVVXWS0yMjkAAAF9ZwtNn4FIwsDrugqrIbtjPoHGaxYVBKWBrzr6r7ms2Jl3_6sHMwAYdlp323Jngef6nsOBrsBcUfijHTvt1559i41TG-tveu6PZVi9Cb8XfnPVNoSX)

I agree with Atkins that adding an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt makes sense. It doesn't need to be anywhere close to 500k square feet though but the floor plate should be larger than the Prime Osborn's exhibition hall. With that, combined with the Hyatt's meeting facilities, the Prime Osborn can be closed as a convention center (and converted back into a train station) and Jax should not have to talk about needing a convention center again for another generation or two (anywhere in the area, including the shipyards and metropolitan park).

There will be a competing convention facility rendering released in a few days.

I had no idea. Thanks for the history.

Quote from: fieldafm on June 01, 2021, 07:31:59 PM
There will be a competing convention facility rendering released in a few days.

I wonder where our downtown master plan is? So many competing visions these days. It's hard to keep up. It reminds me of the days when regional malls were a thing. If one developer proposed one, you'd typically end up with two or three more competing proposals. The first one able to secure anchor tenants and break ground the fastest would win.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 01, 2021, 07:34:46 PM
I had no idea. Thanks for the history.

In Morgan's notes he writes about the importance of integrating the parking garage within the Daniel building:

"In this building, cars are always on the lower floor and hidden from view- always.  It's a matter of respect for the human being, and that's my first priority- not automobiles; human beings. So I get the cars out of view.  We can't afford parking structures and I don't think they (cars) deserve special structures of their own, but we can afford to integrate them into our buildings so we have an entire ground floor directly accessible to the surrounding streets."

He later lamented that to the immediate East and West, the Daniel building was surrounded by surface parking lots on the riverfront.

I like visionary/fantasy renderings...but, I won't hold my breath (we all know how Jax tends to operate and in the end bursting our bubble). Not enough HEIGHT on some buildings...NEED MORE HEIGHT AND TALLNESS. Hope it all pans out and the City along with the developer(s) that they choose or go with, get this thing going. Would love to see most of this done before I meet the Almighty.

More renderings:

QuotePlans for Riverfront Jacksonville announced
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Steve-Atkins-Riverfront-Plans/i-XSbNjxn/0/03ea6595/L/The%20Bend-L.jpg)
$1.1B Master Plan Proposed For Jacksonville's Northbank Riverfront.

Read More:https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/plans-for-riverfront-jacksonville-announced/

Can't wait to see this get scaled back to a generic block base, stick top, 5 story building with some colored rectangles painted around the outside. It looks pretty as most renderings do, but time and time again we've seen things like this come along and either never come to be or get scaled back and budgetized so much they're not recognizable.
 
If this did manage to be built they should really focus on the residential more. 750 units is no where near what a project this size should be. We need a few thousand units. This would naturally incentivize some quality of life businesses to fill in, increase demand for the area and then simultaneously drive the need for more office, residential and hotel space. Gotta build that permanent resident base up as dense and quick as possible to catch those last few fleeing the north and west.

^I can't wait to see how the Jag's plan on Thursday will or will not complement this one. Also wondering how AIA's vision for the riverfront fits into this?

AIA Renderings Here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?vanity=AIAJacksonville&set=a.4200075806679194

What??  No aquarium-zipline-amusement park-casino-fuddruckers?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 02, 2021, 07:22:29 AM
What??  No aquarium-zipline-amusement park-casino-fuddruckers?

Sponsored by Mooneyham

Cautious response from the city.....


Steve Atkins expects 'naysayers,' challenges in $1.1 billion riverfront proposal

QuoteAtkins said June 1 that the list of city officials he has briefed on his proposal includes Mayor Lenny Curry's Chief Administrative Officer Brian Hughes and Chief of Staff Jordan Elsbury.

Elsbury said that SouthEast's plan needs to go through the DIA process.

QuoteDIA board Chair Ron Moody said June 1 that the city agency does not want to discourage ideas about Downtown planning, but the authority has development decisions pending on some of the sites in Atkins' master plan.

Quote"I think an overall plan is important for our city, but at the DIA we've been following a plan to move our city forward," Moody said.

"We have procedures we have to follow and do things the right way so it doesn't become haphazard and it is effective for our Downtown."

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/steve-atkins-expects-naysayers--challenges-in-dollar1-1-billion-riverfront-proposal

QuoteBoyer said a DIA-commissioned study show the Duval County jail property as the most optimal for a convention center, but she said the agency welcomes all private development interest in Downtown.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e3338632ff04fab56f5bafa856af3e6b/tenor.gif)

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 09:20:17 AM

QuoteBoyer said a DIA-commissioned study show the Duval County jail property as the most optimal for a convention center, but she said the agency welcomes all private development interest in Downtown.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/e3338632ff04fab56f5bafa856af3e6b/tenor.gif)

Riiight... you can spend $500 million and get a whole new Northbank, but our DIA's initial response is to show a preference for spending at least that much just to move the jail...plus how much more for the convention center to replace it?

^Yes. We have to introduce the realm of reality into downtown master planning. Last time I checked, Fort Lauderdale still has a jail on their river in the heart of downtown. Yet, it is one of the fastest growing central business districts in the state and light years ahead of downtown Jax from a vibrancy perspective. We need to maximize the limited funds we have. Burning a 1/2 billion on the jail before addressing a series of needs that could dramatically enhance the Northbank in the short term is shortsighted at best. Those are the types of moves that only provide credibility to the position of those who believe we spend too much money in downtown. With that said, the reaction was quite different when Kahn proposed his convention center at Metropolitan Park. We blew up a RFP over that one.

Due to the Lot J rip and recent hikes like the gas tax you're going to have in built stubbornness and opposition to these plans with public money requested.  I'd hope any rejig from the Jags on Lot J/Shipyards is something that can be done in conjunction on this, and more willing to demonstrate compromise or cooperation with the tax payer this turn as opposed to a competing proposal for the sake of throwing ones weight around with no real intentions.

I've next to no patience with Spandrel. Other cities round the country fire cookie cutter developments like theirs up in no time. They've screwed around for 15 months doing nothing and refuse to comment.  Sure they won't come up with a half baked plan to stay in the game.

And yeah, let's create another problem and shift the jail. Its not like we have acres of empty land on the riverfront. I'm no lover of the jail location but we have far more prominent issues.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 02, 2021, 09:56:03 AMWe need to maximize the limited funds we have. Burning a 1/2 billion on the jail before addressing a series of needs that could dramatically enhance the Northbank in the short term is shortsighted at best.

Quote from: landfall on June 02, 2021, 10:25:22 AMAnd yeah, let's create another problem and shift the jail. Its not like we have acres of empty land on the riverfront. I'm no lover of the jail location but we have far more prominent issues.

100% agree. Again, it's the equivalent of a 1-15 Jags team drafting a punter in the 3rd round. We've spent enough money already removing things, and it would be insane to spend $1.5 billion to move the jail and build a new convention center on the site when we could build a new convention center elsewhere for a third of the cost and put that other billion dollars to work elsewhere.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 02, 2021, 09:56:03 AMWith that said, the reaction was quite different when Kahn proposed his convention center at Metropolitan Park. We blew up a RFP over that one.

Has anyone seen this DIA study Lori Boyer references claiming that - with 70 acres of available riverfront land - the jail is the most optimal space for a convention center?

It's quotes like this that make me think that some kind of secretive fix is still in.

Lori Boyer has been so shifty on this convention center thing.

She personally rejected KGB's most recent proposal for a convention center next to the Hyatt.

Last year, she was floating this location:

QuoteBoyer thinks there may be another way to make the Hyatt happy, a way that better serves the city's interests: Instead of building from the Hyatt towards the stadium, build from the Hyatt towards the former site of the Jacksonville Landing, which will soon be bid out for development.

Boyer imagined a convention center engulfing the Hyatt, the Hyatt's parking garage and the Landing's parking lot, heading west along the river instead of north into downtown. If the Main Street bridge ramp running over the parking lot were removed, that would dedicate almost 7 acres to a convention center.

And then, somewhere around the time that all the Lot J stuff was coming to a head, the rumors started that the jail was now the target for a convention center.

Quote from: landfall on June 02, 2021, 10:25:22 AM
Due to the Lot J rip and recent hikes like the gas tax you're going to have in built stubbornness and opposition to these plans with public money requested.

Yep. This is why - in a historically tax averse city that has a ton of infrastructure and quality of life needs - it's a shame that Curry and Zhan poisoned the well on JEA privatization. The windfall from a sale could have rebuilt downtown, paid for stadium upgrades and secured the Jags here for another 30 years, jump-started transportation initiatives, paid for the Emerald Trail, knocked a good chunk out of the septic tank phaseout program, etc. All while preserving the general fund and saving taxpayers hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars in interest by not having to debt-finance this stuff. Still don't know if it would have been a good idea, but would have at least been worth discussing as an option, in the open, as a city.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 10:58:51 AM
She personally rejected KGB's most recent proposal for a convention center next to the Hyatt.

I think you meant KBJ. No comment otherwise:)

Quote from: Steve on June 02, 2021, 11:12:27 AM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 10:58:51 AM
She personally rejected KGB's most recent proposal for a convention center next to the Hyatt.

I think you meant KBJ. No comment otherwise:)

(https://snipboard.io/Yx0sdj.jpg)

;D ;D ;D

Even if a fix were in on the convention center thing (I really don't understand the hesitancy to put an exhibition hall on the back of the Hyatt), there's still one problem. Why would Hyatt's ownership buy into a jail location and give up their first right of refusal on the old City Hall Annex site? Anything related to convention/exhibition space that doesn't involve helping their struggling property survive would not make much sense.

It seems like Boyer really doesn't like the 220 E Bay site. In some ways I see her point* (we'll get to the asterisk in a second):

- The 220 E Bay site gives you a max floor plate of about 80-90k SqFt. If you combine with 330 E Bay, you can get about 210-240SqFt. But, that's about all she wrote and you're not expanding that without major work. I suppose you could demolish the historic buildings at Bay and Newnan (which I disagree with), then you'd get to somewhere between 325k and 350k if you ran it all the way to Bay and Ocean.

- the site she previously mentioned (Hyatt Garage/Old Daniel Building with the East lot (Assuming you take down the ramp to Independent/Water Street since money is apparently free with all of these proposals gives you a max floor plate of about 200-210 SqFt. If you could somehow work with JEA to move the electrical station across the street and combine with the parking lot, that gets you to about 300 SqFt. This also assumes you'd close Independent at the Main Street Bridge or do something elevated. It does not include demolishing the historic buildings at Newnan and Bay.

- Assuming both the Jail and Police Memorial Building move, that site could get you a total of 520-550 SqFt. This also assumes you finish demolishing the now useless Hart Bridge Ramps connecting Forsyth and Adams. Again, I'm assuming you're moving the PMB because if it's just the jail then it REALLY makes no sense.

So....I see her point*. a 500k SqFt Convention Center is a really nice size for Jacksonville. It's not connected to the Hyatt, but she's probably thinking if you could "skywalk" the thing (which I'm not a huge fan of because it gets pedestrians off the streets) then you have it connected. Additionally, at some point we will have to bite the bullet and move the Jail/PMB or spend money on a large scale renovation. Finally, it does attempt to split the difference on having the convention center in the core vs. the sports complex. From there Laura St/JWJ Park is easily walkable and APR is 1/4 mile (not a bad walk either depending on weather). Combine that with the concepts discussed at the Shipyards property, then it could make a really cool space.

*Now for the asterisk: This plan would cost at LEAST $1B. I'm assuming the new Jail/Police HQ is about $500M of that. The other issue is I'm not sure Jacksonville is in the ballgame of $500k SqFt Centers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_United_States

You're certainly playing with the big boys if you get into that market, and obviously you don't have to build all 500k SqFt at one time; you can grow into it. Additionally, everything else has to go right in order to do it, and the "everything" else is also another big check.

It just seems like a REALLY expensive plan personally.

Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 11:37:30 AM
Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

Probably not. They'll just ask the city to subsidize the bejesus out of the rest of it

Quote from: Steve on June 02, 2021, 11:36:43 AM
It seems like Boyer really doesn't like the 220 E Bay site. In some ways I see her point* (we'll get to the asterisk in a second):

- The 220 E Bay site gives you a max floor plate of about 80-90k SqFt. If you combine with 330 E Bay, you can get about 210-240SqFt. But, that's about all she wrote and you're not expanding that without major work. I suppose you could demolish the historic buildings at Bay and Newnan (which I disagree with), then you'd get to somewhere between 325k and 350k if you ran it all the way to Bay and Ocean.

- the site she previously mentioned (Hyatt Garage/Old Daniel Building with the East lot (Assuming you take down the ramp to Independent/Water Street since money is apparently free with all of these proposals gives you a max floor plate of about 200-210 SqFt. If you could somehow work with JEA to move the electrical station across the street and combine with the parking lot, that gets you to about 300 SqFt. This also assumes you'd close Independent at the Main Street Bridge or do something elevated. It does not include demolishing the historic buildings at Newnan and Bay.

- Assuming both the Jail and Police Memorial Building move, that site could get you a total of 520-550 SqFt. This also assumes you finish demolishing the now useless Hart Bridge Ramps connecting Forsyth and Adams. Again, I'm assuming you're moving the PMB because if it's just the jail then it REALLY makes no sense.

So....I see her point*. a 500k SqFt Convention Center is a really nice size for Jacksonville. It's not connected to the Hyatt, but she's probably thinking if you could "skywalk" the thing (which I'm not a huge fan of because it gets pedestrians off the streets) then you have it connected. Additionally, at some point we will have to bite the bullet and move the Jail/PMB or spend money on a large scale renovation. Finally, it does attempt to split the difference on having the convention center in the core vs. the sports complex. From there Laura St/JWJ Park is easily walkable and APR is 1/4 mile (not a bad walk either depending on weather). Combine that with the concepts discussed at the Shipyards property, then it could make a really cool space.

*Now for the asterisk: This plan would cost at LEAST $1B. I'm assuming the new Jail/Police HQ is about $500M of that. The other issue is I'm not sure Jacksonville is in the ballgame of $500k SqFt Centers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convention_centers_in_the_United_States

You're certainly playing with the big boys if you get into that market, and obviously you don't have to build all 500k SqFt at one time; you can grow into it. Additionally, everything else has to go right in order to do it, and the "everything" else is also another big check.

It just seems like a REALLY expensive plan personally.

I get the space constraints but Jax doesn't need a 500k square feet exhibition hall facility and won't within most of our lifetimes. You should be able to get a second floor exhibition hall of around 100 - 105k square feet on the city hall annex site, assuming it abuts the Hyatt's convention level. Consider it something that will give you a +20 year affordable solution to the issue.  The other ideas are for things so far out of Jax's market and affordability that they will take decades and a cool billion to materialize into white elephants.

The first problem with all this "planning" is that it seems to mostly come down to decisions by two people, Curry and Boyer.  And, it's becoming clearer that they are in way over their heads with spaghetti for a "plan" given so many developers and others playing on the same field and ever-changing "visions."  Why should the fate of all of Downtown be decided in this manner?  Where is the community, agency and expert-wide process, collaboration, input and transparency in developing a master plan that balances all interests, perspectives and resources?

It looks like Atkins at least tried to balance some anticipated feedback (e.g. re: greenspace, resiliency, meeting space, etc.) into his proposal even though he was working "behind the scenes" to put it together.

We seem to have not learned our lessons from JEA and Lot J and appear to be headed toward repeat controversies and, ultimately, chaotic outcomes.

Before we consider any "plans" we should nail down an appropriate process for developing and implementing them.  I have concluded that DIA, as currently configured, is not the vehicle to get this done.  Something new needs to take its place.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2021, 03:23:50 PM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 01, 2021, 02:40:21 PM
No mention of the "gotta have" U2C?  I thought it was going to be the key to development Downtown  8)  but this suggests it's not all that important. 

In fact, in the images showing the Skyway (to the far left), it shows no ramp down to Bay Street going toward the Stadium.  What if we repurposed the $247 million in U2C funding toward the infrastructure needs for this type of plan?  Seems it would be a much better investment.

You can't ramp the Skyway down Bay without blocking either Hogan, Laura or Bread and Board Provisions and VyStar's new Bread and Burger breezeway. The DIA also won't let them ramp down Hogan Street, which would block the Emerald Trail project and interfere with Landing redevelopment plans. This is something that JTA has not figured out how to address yet and why some have mentioned exploring silly ideas like using elevators.

Is there any possibility JTA could acquire part of the parking lot next to Hogan street, and bring the guideway down there? Maybe stretch it just enough to connect at the intersection of Hogan and relocated Independent Drive?

From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

QuoteAfter a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

My prediction: This proposal (like countless others over the years) will go through the ringer and ultimately not happen. City Officials will once again take a trip to another city to see how they 'transformed' their downtown and in 2022 we will get a fresh new set of renderings! Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 11:37:30 AM
Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E24vqswXEAETDJg?format=jpg&name=large)

Mark Long
@APMarkLong
Jaguars will unveil new plans tomorrow for developing downtown Jax, which will include a standalone football facility — the one Urban Meyer pretty much demanded — and a five-star hotel. It will not even mention the failed Lot J development

https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

Quote from: Downtown Osprey on June 02, 2021, 02:16:40 PM
City Officials will once again take a trip to another city to see how they 'transformed' their downtown and in 2022 we will get a fresh new set of renderings! Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

The thing that's so dumb about this is they really can just drive a couple of hours and check out Jacksonvilles neighbors. Orlando, Miami and to a lesser extent Tampa and St Pete have gone through huge changes in the last decade. Downtown Orlando is barely recognizable compared to 10 years ago. The Brickell area of Miami is also massively improved. Orlando is a great example of getting as many residential units downtown as quickly as possible. Brickell is a great example of building up mixed use buildings and shopping / entertainment and combining it with monorail, bike and bus infrastructure.

Every city I visit, I'm blown away by how far behind downtown Jacksonville is and how so little has changed in 25 years compared to other cities. They all also have at least 2-3 unique things to entertain tourists. There's really no compelling reason to visit Jacksonvilles downtown area and stay if you're from another city / state.
The art museums are ok, but nothing really stands out that's a must see other than cummer... Which isn't in the core. 
Mosh is so outdated and small it's like visiting a time capsule. 
There's no connected shopping.   
There's barely a connected bar area. 
The convention spaces are the smallest and worst in the state. Daytona and Jacksonville shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, yet they have just as good of a space. 
The hotels are all disconnected. Unless you're visiting a specific office building for a work trip, good luck feeling safe walking to anything afterwards. 
No movie theater, escape room, bowling, mini golf or anything of the like to entertain families. 
Other than memorial park, none of the parks are well maintained or contain anything unique to draw in people. Friendship fountain was cool for about a year after it's renovation and then immediately fell into disrepair and has been basically a stagnant pool for a decade. 
The over abundance of soulless ground level parking lots and for business use only garages sucks the life out of entire sections of the core. 
I could go on and on.   
 
Sorry I just needed to vent. I've been a member of this site for so long and it's soul crushing how horribly managed my home town is.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

QuoteAfter a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

Of all the dumb demolitions at this point, the old City Hall Annex takes the cake. There was no reason to demolish that building and not provide the opportunity for an adaptive reuse and then to not think through the right of first refusal for the Hyatt is unconscionable. To add injury to insult, the city is still dealing with insurance claims and lawsuits due to the damage the explosion caused in nearby buildings downtown.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

QuoteAfter a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

Its pathetic on all fronts.

Spandrel say nothing for a year and a half, yet as soon as renderings of something else come out, suddenly they panic and pipe up just incase we've forgotten they exist, and it turns out they still have their finger up their asses anyway. Even worse the DIA is prepared to wait on them.

Get them out and start fresh.

No wonder this Downtown is one of the worst if not thee in America with such non existent urgency. Some of the people running Downtown wouldn't be fit for a small town on a prairie.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

Usual glossy build up. I'm predicting a four seasons, practice fields/sports medicine on the shipyards and the big bonanza, request for public money to put a roof over the stadium ala Miami, because if you don't we'll go to San Antonio or St. Louis.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

First Down Town? Really?

Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 02, 2021, 04:48:47 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

First Down Town? Really?

I mean "Touch Down Town," grammatical issues aside, just seemed a tad presumptuous after a 1-15 season,  so....

Quote from: jaxjaguar on June 02, 2021, 03:19:48 PM

Quote from: Downtown Osprey on June 02, 2021, 02:16:40 PM
City Officials will once again take a trip to another city to see how they 'transformed' their downtown and in 2022 we will get a fresh new set of renderings! Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

The thing that's so dumb about this is they really can just drive a couple of hours and check out Jacksonvilles neighbors. Orlando, Miami and to a lesser extent Tampa and St Pete have gone through huge changes in the last decade. Downtown Orlando is barely recognizable compared to 10 years ago. The Brickell area of Miami is also massively improved. Orlando is a great example of getting as many residential units downtown as quickly as possible. Brickell is a great example of building up mixed use buildings and shopping / entertainment and combining it with monorail, bike and bus infrastructure.

Every city I visit, I'm blown away by how far behind downtown Jacksonville is and how so little has changed in 25 years compared to other cities. They all also have at least 2-3 unique things to entertain tourists. There's really no compelling reason to visit Jacksonvilles downtown area and stay if you're from another city / state.
The art museums are ok, but nothing really stands out that's a must see other than cummer... Which isn't in the core. 
Mosh is so outdated and small it's like visiting a time capsule. 
There's no connected shopping.   
There's barely a connected bar area. 
The convention spaces are the smallest and worst in the state. Daytona and Jacksonville shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, yet they have just as good of a space. 
The hotels are all disconnected. Unless you're visiting a specific office building for a work trip, good luck feeling safe walking to anything afterwards. 
No movie theater, escape room, bowling, mini golf or anything of the like to entertain families. 
Other than memorial park, none of the parks are well maintained or contain anything unique to draw in people. Friendship fountain was cool for about a year after it's renovation and then immediately fell into disrepair and has been basically a stagnant pool for a decade. 
The over abundance of soulless ground level parking lots and for business use only garages sucks the life out of entire sections of the core. 
I could go on and on.   
 
Sorry I just needed to vent. I've been a member of this site for so long and it's soul crushing how horribly managed my home town is.

Yes. Jacksonville leaders should write a book on how "Not to plan for a Downtown."  As we have checked virtually every box anyone could imagine for screwing up a downtown, it would be an encyclopedic authority on same.  At least someone would benefit from our experiences.  I can see other City chambers saying "Let's visit Jacksonville, Florida, to learn what not to do to screw up our city.  The people there are experts at this." 

Most successful people credit their success to lessons learned from their failures.  We are the exception as we never learn.

Quote from: landfall on June 02, 2021, 02:25:15 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 11:37:30 AM
Jags press release has gone out.

10:30 AM tomorrow.

Urban Meyer will be part of the presentation.

There's no universe where the Jags can ask the city to subsidize their new standalone football facility, is there?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E24vqswXEAETDJg?format=jpg&name=large)

THIS iteration has GOT to be the ONE to TRANSFORM the urban core ... look! even the coach's name is URBAN!!

Quote from: landfall on June 02, 2021, 03:58:49 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

Usual glossy build up. I'm predicting a four seasons, practice fields/sports medicine on the shipyards and the big bonanza, request for public money to put a roof over the stadium ala Miami, because if you don't we'll go to San Antonio or St. Louis.

Make that a retractable roof.  We don't want second class for our stadium.  It's OK for the rest of the City but not there.  And don't forget a convention center!  Surprise us and announce that Flex N Gate is moving its HQ's here :).

I wonder if they have cut a deal with the Fair Grounds.  Would tie in nicely with Shad's $1 million to improve the Eastside area around it.  Just like his donation for MOSH to enhance his interest in the Shipyards.

Well..... of all of the proposals and " Renditions" I have witnessed over the past many decade(s)....... this is Another.
The view of the vessels stern to shore, European Style...... backed up to a sea wall with no dock..... Ha!.... even with no Dock , which actually depicts current Sordid Downtown Waterway Condition; former existing floating docks absent for the longest time...... a storm event. No doubt the absence of docks due to some " Hiatus" .(Not to be confused with Miami Herald Carl Hiaasen and his Editorial piece " Jacksonville's Millionth Mania" Downtown event, reference to Florida Power And Light user by name.... Ha! )  what a ridiculous image, the " Artist Rendition" misses the reality of River Current, water depth in front of the boats/ forward anchor.....
Oh, excuse me...... have I lost some of you? Join the club, Mr. Sleiman missed the same insight during his round of Artist Rendition......."Marina" /Docks at the Landing shoreline..... sticking out there..... at short distance from the Landing shore the docks are out there headed towards water 45, 55, 70 foot deep. Strong tidal flow.A " Marina" could be " Done" no doubt, but not worth asking the public to pay for it.
The " Marina" would become noted for its Demanding Vessel Handling Aspect. Worse than our harbor competitors in the Carolinas. And pretty much elsewhere.
What a Hoot for so many involved, maybe involved, some might be involved, some might really really be involved, some might be involved if you think about it, or even if you don't....... But Hey There ! Anchor Man! Mort Crim, what say you???

Downtown ( Development) Authority as unaware as any entity..... Next!!
Why is it that Downtown Development Authority hardly never ever, never  engages on this forum , in some formal authoritative manner?

Big Yawn, other than Special Note; Jacksonville's Southern Gracious Porch, Landing Property ( Public.... do not forget) remains Open Space.
Not worth a half billion from the public...... shucks man, worth far more......... (          ).

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 02:13:24 PM
From the Biz Journal on Spandrel/Ford on Bay:

QuoteAfter a several month hiatus due to the Covid-19 pandemic hitting shortly after the company was selected in February 2020, Spandrel and the Downtown Development Authority have been hashing out a term sheet for the deal.

The company's current plan differ significantly from its winning bid, DIA CEO Lori Boyer said Tuesday, leading to the potential of the process being reopened in some way.

"The primary thing they're concerned about is the quantity of retail they committed to, and they're also concerned about some of the design elements and other things," Boyer told the Business Journal on Tuesday. "Some of those factors were instrumental in the scoring and their award in the first place."

It is unclear if the current process would be halted and restarted or if the city could use what is known as a negotiated disposition. Under that scenario — which the DIA is allowed to pursue as a community redevelopment agency — Spandrel and the city could work up a plan and turn it into a notice of disposition.

A decision on how the DIA will proceed is likely to be made in three to four months, Boyer said.

After a year and a half in limbo, while material costs skyrocket, still doesn't seem to be any urgency to get something moving here.

By October, the DIA will decide how to proceed.

Which means that, by January 2022, a new RFP will be issued.

Which means that, a year from now, we might have the framework of a development agreement.

Many here said years ago when those buildings were blown up that this property would sit empty for another decade. It sucks to be right because it simply means we're continuing to miss opportunities for quick revitalization and implementation that takes advantage of good economic cycles.

Quote from: landfall on June 02, 2021, 03:58:49 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 02, 2021, 03:16:47 PM
https://twitter.com/1stdowntownjax

^Linked to he Jags announcement tomorrow.

Usual glossy build up. I'm predicting a four seasons, practice fields/sports medicine on the shipyards and the big bonanza, request for public money to put a roof over the stadium ala Miami, because if you don't we'll go to San Antonio or St. Louis.

I actually get a sense that the Jags have learned a lesson from the Lot J catastrophe.

Doubt we'll see them say straight out that their arrogance and sense of entitlement during a pandemic sank Lot J, but I do think we'll see a different tone from the Jags tomorrow, with a big focus on transparency and their insistence on going through the full DIA process for any new development. I think they'll be more upfront about resiliency as well.

I also think (original) Metro Park will be a focus as well. The Jags supposedly want to take the lead on improving the original 14 acre Metropolitan Park and making it into a genuine asset for the area (along with a secondary park between MOSH and the Four Seasons/Medical development). They want to overhaul the marina as well.

Will be curious to see if they stand by the insistence that the hotel will carry the Four Seasons flag, or if they present it more generically as a luxury hotel. Either way, I think there will be a residential element to the hotel as well.

The medical center and standalone training facility will be interesting in terms of whether they're separate buildings or not. I'd think they'd almost have to be. Baptist and the Jags have been talking about partnering on an orthopedic center since last year, but I'm not sure how you'd mix team facilities, coaching offices, film auditoriums, etc. in with a Baptist ortho center. Plus, if Shad Khan promised Urban Meyer a standalone facility, it feels like you could probably get shovels in the ground years earlier if you built adjacent adjacent to the stadium rather than across the street at Met Park.

Should be fun.

These things never seem to end up going anywhere, but I'm hoping with all the positivity post-draft, lessons learned from Lot J's failure, $150 million more in the Jags coffer each year from the new TV deals, and increased oversight from the DIA, we get a good plan that the public is behind and that paves the way for an eventual long-term extension of the lease.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 02, 2021, 10:48:02 PM
Many here said years ago when those buildings were blown up that this property would sit empty for another decade. It sucks to be right because it simply means we're continuing to miss opportunities for quick revitalization and implementation that takes advantage of good economic cycles.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like we end up feeling that "it sucks to be right" an awful lot.

Quote from: Florida Power And Light on June 02, 2021, 09:25:18 PM
Why is it that Downtown Development Authority hardly never ever, never  engages on this forum , in some formal authoritative manner?

Not worth a half billion from the public...... shucks man, worth far more......... (          ).

Why would they? Only makes sense to engage here if you're really concerned about doing better. It's not like they're at risk of losing their jobs or anything.

In terms of the Riverfront, personally, I wouldn't necessarily blame the city for being concerned about the prospect of paying for this. Half a billion dollars is a lot of money. It is nice that this seems at least somewhat more accurately scaled for its cost compared to Lot J, but nonetheless I don't think it's out there to not be a fan of the public cost between this and whatever Khan presents tomorrow. It'd probably help if it was clear that city leadership was really ready to be visionary on responsibly investing and tying everything together, but seeing as that's not the case there's a lot of reason for people to have little confidence in the idea of a billion dollars on downtown projects.

Personally, I feel the Trio is more interesting and feasible than any of this stuff in the next 10 years.

Starting in two:

https://www.jaguars.com/live

Well, it seems the "Master Plan" and "1stdowntownjax" don't clash in anyway which is good. Jags adding dedicated stand alone practice facility, sports medicine and office space separate from the stadium in the sports district. Ground floor retail space in the office building and football facility.

The Four Seasons proposal also remains.

Early on, this is looking much better than their prior proposals.  Not touching Metro Park or Fair Grounds at all.  Paying half the costs and all the maintenance for the player facilities.  Moving Four Seasons to Shipyards area.  Including more retail.  Other than a few Four Seasons residences appears to be more focused on office/hotel. Coordinating with DuPont Fund on Riverfront Parks Now plans and will donate $4 million for Metro Park improvements.

Will see what details follow.  Of course, the elephant in the room will be the upcoming ask for stadium improvements.  This appears to be an effort to earn goodwill in advance of that.  It also shows that killing Lot J was a good thing.  Having the Four Seasons at the Shipyards is a much better spot for it than Metro Park too.  More centrally located and better surroundings.

It does look a lot more reasonable. Still a bit unsure of the market for a Four Seasons, but if they're confident enough to bring it back they must expect it to succeed somehow. I think it's also taller in these renderings, which I guess was so they could squeeze it into the Kids Kampus space.

Did they say anything of what the expected city contribution is? I know we'd own the performance center (for some reason) but I didn't hear what we'd be putting in as incentive to start.

I think if they can keep a lid on the public price tag in the ~$125-150 million range it could sail through. There's a different energy for the Jags than there was at the start of the year.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 03, 2021, 11:56:30 AM
It does look a lot more reasonable. Still a bit unsure of the market for a Four Seasons, but if they're confident enough to bring it back they must expect it to succeed somehow. I think it's also taller in these renderings, which I guess was so they could squeeze it into the Kids Kampus space.

Did they say anything of what the expected city contribution is? I know we'd own the performance center (for some reason) but I didn't hear what we'd be putting in as incentive to start.

I think if they can keep a lid on the public price tag in the ~$125-150 million range it could sail through. There's a different energy for the Jags than there was at the start of the year.

Other than the Four Seasons which I'd imagine will be heavily used for Jags purposes, much of the development looks strictly Jags related as opposed to the Cordish involvement. Dedicated Office Space for the Jags (plus probably AEW), a dedicated football facility, and also dedicated sports medicine facility in conjunction with Baptist Health. In Urban Meyers words it means players can stay in Jacksonville and be treated as opposed to going to Arizona or Texas. They're giving Urban Meyer everything he asked for.

As far as retail , probably a pro shop. I could maybe see a dedicated sports bar/restaurant type deal.

This campus setup they're aiming for looks very similar to Lambeau Field and the Packers.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 03, 2021, 11:56:30 AM
I think it's also taller in these renderings, which I guess was so they could squeeze it into the Kids Kampus space.

Did they say anything of what the expected city contribution is? I know we'd own the performance center (for some reason) but I didn't hear what we'd be putting in as incentive to start.

I think if they can keep a lid on the public price tag in the ~$125-150 million range it could sail through. There's a different energy for the Jags than there was at the start of the year.

Four Seasons moved to the Shipyards.  No longer on Kids Kampus.  Only number I have seen so far is asking City for $60 million for half of the football facilities.  We shall see if more shoes drop later, e.g. infrastructure, clean ups, etc.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 12:05:23 PM

Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 03, 2021, 11:56:30 AM
I think it's also taller in these renderings, which I guess was so they could squeeze it into the Kids Kampus space.

Did they say anything of what the expected city contribution is? I know we'd own the performance center (for some reason) but I didn't hear what we'd be putting in as incentive to start.

I think if they can keep a lid on the public price tag in the ~$125-150 million range it could sail through. There's a different energy for the Jags than there was at the start of the year.

Four Seasons moved to the Shipyards.  No longer on Kids Kampus.  Only number I have seen so far is asking City for $60 million for half of the football facilities.  We shall see if more shoes drop later, e.g. infrastructure, clean ups, etc.

I think Lamping mentioned the buildings are raised from the ground reducing cleanup costs?

Checked the Daily Record:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-owner-shad-kahn-proposes-four-seasons-football-performance-center

QuoteThe only reference to a city financial investment in the June 3 news release was that Khan and Iguana propose the team and city each pay $60 million to build the performance center.

The release says the $442 million first phase will include the performance center plus the 176-room and 25 residential-unit Four Seasons, a city-owned marina and a six-floor office building built on the vacant Shipyards property southwest of the stadium.

At the announcement, Lamping said the first phase cost was $321 million.

Phase two would focus on a 42,000-square-foot orthopedic sports medicine campus, 15,000 square feet of street-level retail and a 200-space-plus parking structure and possibly a residential component.

The Jaguars and Iguana did not provide a total cost of the second phase.

I'm questioning how there's already a hundred million dollar difference in the price tag... maybe the $442 million includes the performance center and the $321 million doesn't?

Also notable that a convention center is no longer in the cards. I wonder if they're satisfied with pushing for the jail replacement or waving the white flag to Hyatt and Riverfront.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 12:05:23 PM
Four Seasons moved to the Shipyards.  No longer on Kids Kampus.  Only number I have seen so far is asking City for $60 million for half of the football facilities.  We shall see if more shoes drop later, e.g. infrastructure, clean ups, etc.

Are you sure? This looks like where Kids Kampus is.

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/342331_standard.jpeg)

I took it as the Kids Kampus was part of Metro Park as that is what I have always taken it to be part of.  If not, based on some legal technicalities, you may be correct.

QuoteHowever, Iguana was allowed access to the more than 8-acre former Kids Kampus, which is part of Metropolitan Park's 24.7-acre footprint, and the adjacent Shipyards site. It is not clear if Khan's plans include those 8 acres.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-owner-shad-kahn-proposes-four-seasons-football-performance-center

QuoteI'm questioning how there's already a hundred million dollar difference in the price tag... maybe the $442 million includes the performance center and the $321 million doesn't?

Yes, according to the presentation the $321 million is the cost of the Shipyards component of the project.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 12:14:29 PM
I took it as the Kids Kampus was part of Metro Park as that is what I have always taken it to be part of.  If not, based on some legal technicalities, you may be correct.

QuoteHowever, Iguana was allowed access to the more than 8-acre former Kids Kampus, which is part of Metropolitan Park's 24.7-acre footprint, and the adjacent Shipyards site. It is not clear if Khan's plans include those 8 acres.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jaguars-owner-shad-kahn-proposes-four-seasons-football-performance-center

It's pretty clear that the Four Seasons would be built on the grave of Kids Kampus. There is a fence that separates former Kids Kampus from Metropolitan Park. It appears that the fire station and Fire Museum would have to be relocated.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on June 03, 2021, 12:08:01 PM
Also notable that a convention center is no longer in the cards. I wonder if they're satisfied with pushing for the jail replacement or waving the white flag to Hyatt and Riverfront.

A Four Seasons is typically split between a hotel component, amenities like spas and restaurants, for-sale condotel units that are used by the buyer as a hybrid vacation/rental property and between 15k-20k square feet of meeting space.

The plan, as is my understanding, is that this Jax development would include a little more robust on-site meeting facility.  Keep in mind, that having a hotel next to the stadium also allows the team to attract business events that would also utilize the stadium facilities.  The Touchdown Club, Terrace Suites, Dailys Place, etc are all used for various kinds of events.    Effectively the stadium's existing facilities would be at worst on par with the Hyatt's current offerings, and at best much better as the hotel accommodations are nicer, there are far more flexible types of facilities, and the total amount of business meeting space is effectively larger than what the Hyatt could offer. 

My expectation is that in future stadium upgrades that we'll be talking about in a few years, will include even more expansion of the type of in-stadium facilities that can be used for event-rental purposes. 

Thoughts on the Jags announcements today.... put this in the "Renderings" thread but figured I would stick it here too.

For the Shipyards - Love this concept and this plan. A Four Seasons definitely changes the playing field downtown. Very fired up the Jags are going about this the right way, though the DIA.

For the football facility - seems like a no-brainer.  Currently COJ is obligated to pay for all facilities, and to maintain them, but in this scenario we get a world class facility (ideally to attract and develop better players!) and Shad is going to pay for half, AND agree to cover all maintenance and operational costs going forward.

Home runs all around.

QuoteCurrently COJ is obligated to pay for all facilities, and to maintain them

I think that's a big semantical.  COJ is in fact keeping up with their lease terms.  The practice facilities, workout rooms, etc are all presently being paid for and maintained by COJ.  The current lease doesn't necessarily envision a scenario where the Jags basically say that the current facilities are inadequate, we are going to abandon them, and we want you to pay to build new off site facilities.

That said, I have no problem with the new facilities.  They are part of a larger strategy to upgrade the existing stadium incrementally (we couldn't afford a new stadium with a price tag north of $1.5billion), and allow the team to continue to operate on site while stadium improvements occur gradually over several off seasons. 

It was also smart of Kahn to say that the Jags would pay maintenance costs.  I think a lot of elected officials were shocked when they started to realize how much the electricity bill was for the new scoreboards, once they came online. Surprises like that don't seed good will.

I don't like the fact that the Jags have basically said that the new flex field that was completed a few years ago is now useless and they don't want anything to do with it any longer.  COJ Parks will now 'program' it. That sounds better in theory than in practice. The Parks Dept budget is not robust.  They have a hard enough time finding money to pay for their current summer programs, like the nightime basketball league, etc.

$45mm in public 'cash' for Four Seasons and office building, which includes moving the fire museum and upgrading the marina... is far better than the Lot J deal.... where taxpayers were fronting most of the cost, and likely putting in more cash than the developer was.   

I like that the Jags will be keeping and basically upgrading MetroPark. It will be the first time in basically 40 years that Met Park will have a dedicated funding source.  This gets around the NPS issue.  I like how the buildings on the Kids Kampus are situated, basically keeping the exisiting JEA easements in tact (there are underground power and sewer lines that run right through the open areas between the Four Seasons and office buildings that ultimately cross underneath the river).  The way they've structured the site plan and keeping MetPark open and make it function better with the surrounding development is smart.

Overall, this looks tremendously more positive than what Lot J was. 

I know for a fact that Lamping has been meeting with tons of people getting their thoughts and buy-in. Its a marked improvement.  This is, and has always been, a big small town.  Demands from the bullypulpits don't work, but Jaxsons have shown time and time again that they will rally around a big idea that has involved community buy-in from the start. Its the reason why the Jaguars even exist.  My mom and I waived signs at Regency Mall and got people to sign up for club seats back in the early 90's to prove to the NFL that we deserved an expansion team. 

Just wondering... with the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps, how will the increased traffic in this area from Shad's planned development impact the traffic flow off of/on to the bridge?  How is it working during Stadium, Arena, Baseball and Daily's events so far?

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on June 03, 2021, 02:57:18 PM
Just wondering... with the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps, how will the increased traffic in this area from Shad's planned development impact the traffic flow off of/on to the bridge?  How is it working during Stadium, Arena, Baseball and Daily's events so far?

The project isn't complete yet.

https://player.vimeo.com/video/556311640

I wonder if there's any possibility that we could move Spandrel. Seeing how they haven't exactly done much, and the negotiations sound like they'll essentially require a restart on bidding, maybe it would make some sense to find some similarly sized parcels elsewhere, perhaps down Bay Street in the Shipyards? Seeing as the Khan developments will require things like the Fire Museum moving, and MOSH coming to the area, it might be a decent enough deal to find them some space, say, across from Maxwell House? They could end up positioned between the Berkman 2 replacement and the growing "Museum District," clear the way for Riverfront, solve the Hyatt problem, and put some effort into getting that area finally developed.

In terms of the Landing property, it seems most respectful of the effort put in to let the competition finish, and if we choose to proceed in more serious talks with Atkins and his group, bring the winning designers in to reconcile their choice with the proposed development. That way we don't throw all the work we've put into the idea of a park in the garbage, and can even start on building it independent of the actual development agreement, in case that takes some time.

It seems to me that a lot of ideas like these are going to be needed at the DIA in the coming months as they try to work out how to manage this proposal and the work they've already done. And an aside, maybe it was a good thing after all that we didn't accept the offer from Jacobs last summer to spend half a billion dollars on just a convention center.

Quote from: landfall on June 03, 2021, 09:12:42 PM
https://player.vimeo.com/video/556311640

They did an amazing job with this video.

Has to be the slickest renders I've yet seen for Jax.

Video does a much better job explaining their vision than just the images.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 05, 2021, 11:02:03 AM

Quote from: landfall on June 03, 2021, 09:12:42 PM
https://player.vimeo.com/video/556311640

They did an amazing job with this video.

Has to be the slickest renders I've yet seen for Jax.

Video does a much better job explaining their vision than just the images.

Yes! Super job. I love this presentation/rendering and understand much better from this rather from drawings/artist conceptions or renderings. (super promotion and marketing to bring more people to Jax/downtown to live can justify them not being so scared to go vertical on the residential buildings)....LOL.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 05, 2021, 11:02:03 AM

Quote from: landfall on June 03, 2021, 09:12:42 PM
https://player.vimeo.com/video/556311640

They did an amazing job with this video.

Has to be the slickest renders I've yet seen for Jax.

Video does a much better job explaining their vision than just the images.

Yeah it's a very well put together video.

So far, I'm behind this proposal. Of course we've seen over time how renderings and proposals shrink but the professionalism of the presentation and some of the big players involved in the financing and design is very encouraging.

Very good presentation. However, I'm under the belief that not much is real at this point. The DIA and COJ haven't bought in to paying 1/2 billion.

It's disappointing to see the DIA's somewhat standoffish attitude towards Atkins' proposal out of the gate. Reading Lori Boyer's quotes below, and hearing some of the other quotes coming out of the DIA about Atkins' proposal, it almost reads like they feel threatened by someone else wanting to take a run at a master planned development, rather than the piecemeal approach they're currently taking with no real rhyme or reason. It just seems insane to me, for example, that the DIA isn't looking at the former Landing site holistically, but rather RFPing design of the greenspace and figuring out the private development later. Equally insane that they're still stubbornly locked in - per the quotes below - to the jail location for a future convention center, when the costs saving just from not relocating the jail would probably cover a major chunk of this proposal.

I just don't have a lot of faith that they have a unified vision for the Northbank riverfront.

Others might disagree, but the more that I look at this, the more I think it's probably the smartest plan I've seen since moving to Jacksonville in 2005. It addresses nearly everything in one fell swoop - a unified park plan for the riverfront (the DIA is working on each of these pieces in a vacuum); private development at the Landing (an afterthought for the DIA); a convention center plan adjacent to the Hyatt that has the hotel's blessing (a year and a half later, the DIA still hasn't closed with Spandrel, Hyatt refuses to relinquish their right of first refusal, and they continue to cling the most expensive, cost-prohibitive location for a CC); smart marina use of the new alcove at (which the DIA couldn't secure through their RFP); significant residential density (unlike Spandrel's winning bid); significant riverfront restaurant and retail (which the DIA has driven a net loss in over the past few years); active public greenspace and riverwalks (unlike 'Riverfront Plaza' to date and whatever that riverwalk is in front of Morton's); resiliency (again, seems to be an afterthought for the DIA); and what appears to be a smart, cohesive plan for the type of clustering of complimenting uses in a compact pedestrian setting that the site has been pushing for my entire run in Jax.

On top of that, the proposal doesn't appear to be a casual submission put out by some rando hoping to leach some free subsidies. Rather, it's the result of a two-year, $500k effort by one of the few downtown developers actually moving the needle forward this economic cycle. He's got major names backing him on the financing who, per his claims, express a willingness to make this thing happen and front a lot of the upfront expense to get it built.

A half billion in subsidies is going to have some sticker shock, but when you look at the end result (10 buildings, 20+ acres pf park space, 3,000 parking spots, a resilient riverfront, a new marina, tons of new residential density, riverfront retail and restaurants, and a more market appropriate, smart convention center solution than a $500 million-$1.5 billion project elsewhere), it feels like a bargain. If there's a way for the city to debt-finance half of the project and allocate $25 million or so from the CIP annually for the next decade as it was built out, feels like a no brainer.

Particularly when the alternative is watching the DIA drag their feet on each individual parcel for years, with no real unified plan or vision. The Atkins plan - if it worked out - feels like it could be in motion and completed a decade or more before whatever the DIA is doing.

Obviously nothing more renders in a video right now, and the devil is always in the details, but would hate to see the DIA dismiss this thing outright purely out of insecurity or arrogance.

From the Biz Journal:

QuoteThe timing is right for the idea, Atkins said, because of the value of being able to conceptualize a plan for some 20 acres of city-owned property. "There has not been an opportunity in a generation to have that many city-owned acres together at one time," he said.

For Boyer, that plan may be too late, because of the projects already in the works, or premature: The DIA is in the process of updating its own masterplan, which was adopted by the city in 2014.

From the DIA's standpoint, its masterplan for downtown — which will take into account other property, including the disposition of the county jail, plans for the sports district and other neighborhoods — will lay out the direction downtown needs to take.

"It's an even higher level vision," Boyer said about that masterplan. "We just don't have the pretty graphics. We hope to have them by the end of summer or early fall."

From the T-U:

Quote"If I have to go one more year and hear about 'the potential,' my head is going to explode," Atkins said. "It is time for us to act in a bold way with a bold plan and to make Jacksonville the city we all know we want it to be — a world-class, first-tier city."

Downtown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer, who met previously with Atkins to hear his about Riverfront Jacksonville, noted the agency did not seek a proposal from him.

DIA previously selected a developer for two of the parcels that Atkins envisions being part of Riverfront Jacksonville. DIA also is doing a separate design competition for Riverfront Plaza, the land that used to be the site of the Jacksonville Landing.

Boyer said the unveiling of Riverfront Jacksonville does not change DIA's current approach to that part of downtown.

"I don't want the market to get the wrong message," she said. "I don't want the market to think that all of these properties are taken out of play and are spoken for. They're not."

She said DIA would be open to "entertain and look at Steve's ideas when the time is right."

A key to Southeast Development's approach is it would have a master developer for parcels of city-owned land that the Downtown Investment Authority has been marketing separately up to this point.

"I'm a big believer in master plans and I think that the type of development that we need to see on the Northbank, particularly in what is essentially the face of Jacksonville, needs to be addressed in a master plan," Atkins said. "I think that's critical."

Atkins said Riverfront Jacksonville would set buildings back from the river so the development could incorporate green space for the public to enjoy being along the river while also bringing new construction into that area of downtown.

The Downtown Investment Authority currently is doing a design competition for building park space at Riverfront Plaza, the new name of the site where the Landing was razed. DIA officials have said that after determining the layout of green space, they will then seek development proposals for the remaining land.

The DIA separately sought developers last year for the vacant land where the old City Hall Annex and former county courthouse used to stand along Bay Street.

The DIA board selected Spandrel Development Partners in February 2020 for those parcels.

"At the moment, that site is off the table," Boyer said.

Riverfront Jacksonville would want to use the property more intensively with a 27-level tower with 410-unit residential mix of condominium and apartments, and another building Atkins calls the Exhibition, Entertainment & Technology Center that would have large-scale convention exhibition space.

He said it would not be a convention center, but it would have the space that allows the next-door Hyatt Regency hotel to attract conventions that bypass Jacksonville.

"This is not your dad's convention center," he said. "This is new. This is fresh and this something that allows us to compete in the market."

Boyer said DIA has considered that site for convention activity previously but the preferred site is the property for a convention center would be where the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office complex now stands along Bay Street.

She said the decision on moving forward on a convention center also hinges on getting downtown to the point where it has enough activities that will attract convention-goers as a destination for their meetings.

Riverfront Jacksonville also envisions construction of new buildings on the city-owned parking lot on the side of the Main Street bridge opposite from Riverfront Plaza. Boyer said that would be a good site for redevelopment but there are steps the city needs to go through before putting that city-owned land on the market.

^ On one hand, I can imagine DIA feeling like they got burned with the Berkman II/500 East Bay mess, and wanting to in-house the work after watching Lot J blow up.

But on the other, come on. For the market to waltz in and tell us that they'll build everything and more if we just pay back half (eventually), at greater scale than anything in downtown's recent history, and to turn your nose up because you want to spend the equivalent of our share just to get an empty lot where the jail used to be? Are they serious right now?

I've said before and I'll say it again, I want the DIA to do their due diligence on this project and make sure we're not actually getting ripped off or anything, but not if they're doing so through the lens of killing it so they can dilly-daily through the next economic cycle.

I also said earlier, but given where we visibly appear to be in terms of the riverfront, I see no reason why we can't get the Landing/Riverfront Plaza winner to work with this consortium and move Spandrel to a parcel we actually have the leverage to let them use. There's nothing about Spandel's project that requires them to be on that space, which there's no way in hell we're going to convince Hyatt to let them have. I don't understand what makes Boyer or anyone else at DIA think that Hyatt has any reason at all to give up their leverage, especially so city money can build a competing product down the street.

The only thing I would personally stop and think about is the fact that once we do something like this we should really export some of the lessons we've learned and make investments in neighborhoods outside downtown. But that's a calculation based on the prospect that people will start getting upset if we spend a billion dollars in public money on downtown (between this, Shipyards+Stadium, RiversEdge, and various other projects in LaVilla or Brooklyn) and nothing outside of it. At some point we have to spread the love.

I guess we could at least wait until the end of summer to see the DIA's alternative, see what's on their plate. But if they're going to propose spending a billion dollars on a brand new convention center that their own studies apparently said the market couldn't support, and reject the market's proposed alternative (that's in line with what groups like the Civic Council advocated for a decade ago), then I'm all-in on Atkins. Maybe his group needs to copy what Khan is doing and start seeking public support to lobby for it.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on June 06, 2021, 02:43:46 PM
It's disappointing to see the DIA's somewhat standoffish attitude towards Atkins' proposal out of the gate. Reading Lori Boyer's quotes below, and hearing some of the other quotes coming out of the DIA about Atkins' proposal, it almost reads like they feel threatened by someone else wanting to take a run at a master planned development, rather than the piecemeal approach they're currently taking with no real rhyme or reason. It just seems insane to me, for example, that the DIA isn't looking at the former Landing site holistically, but rather RFPing design of the greenspace and figuring out the private development later. Equally insane that they're still stubbornly locked in - per the quotes below - to the jail location for a future convention center, when the costs saving just from not relocating the jail would probably cover a major chunk of this proposal.

I just don't have a lot of faith that they have a unified vision for the Northbank riverfront.

Unfortunately, they don't. If the community doesn't know it, it ain't and never was a unified vision for the Northbank. The continued references to the 2014 CRA Plan pretty much solidify that. If that was a master plan, then it was a pretty bad one. A master plan should include what you actually plan to do with your publicly owned properties and when you plan to implement said vision. That CRA plan was about as ambiguous as they come.

QuoteOthers might disagree, but the more that I look at this, the more I think it's probably the smartest plan I've seen since moving to Jacksonville in 2005. It addresses nearly everything in one fell swoop - a unified park plan for the riverfront (the DIA is working on each of these pieces in a vacuum); private development at the Landing (an afterthought for the DIA); a convention center plan adjacent to the Hyatt that has the hotel's blessing (a year and a half later, the DIA still hasn't closed with Spandrel, Hyatt refuses to relinquish their right of first refusal, and they continue to cling the most expensive, cost-prohibitive location for a CC); smart marina use of the new alcove at (which the DIA couldn't secure through their RFP); significant residential density (unlike Spandrel's winning bid); significant riverfront restaurant and retail (which the DIA has driven a net loss in over the past few years); active public greenspace and riverwalks (unlike 'Riverfront Plaza' to date and whatever that riverwalk is in front of Morton's); resiliency (again, seems to be an afterthought for the DIA); and what appears to be a smart, cohesive plan for the type of clustering of complimenting uses in a compact pedestrian setting that the site has been pushing for my entire run in Jax.

It's basically the only plan you've seen for the riverfront since 2005. With that said, I get the DIA's initial position. They already have active deals and plans (yeah, some should be scrapped but it is what it is) for some of the sites, despite them being piecemealed. The Atkins plan will be better than whatever they produce later this year. The DIA consulting team does not have the multidisplinary experience or the capacity to produce or propose what the Atkins team did. I also don't believe they are under contract to produce something equivalent. Instead they are doing stuff like attempting to rebrand neighborhood names. Both plans still largely lack transparent community engagement. For example, the mix of people included in the Atkins video resemble the 1950s moreso than the culturally diverse community we live in and should be planning for today. It's very hard to say that the greenspace illustrated in the renderings speak to what people really want to see in an urban park space. Needless to say, they'll still win public support over whatever the DIA comes up with, which puts the DIA in a bad position.

QuoteOn top of that, the proposal doesn't appear to be a casual submission put out by some rando hoping to leach some free subsidies. Rather, it's the result of a two-year, $500k effort by one of the few downtown developers actually moving the needle forward this economic cycle. He's got major names backing him on the financing who, per his claims, express a willingness to make this thing happen and front a lot of the upfront expense to get it built.

A half billion in subsidies is going to have some sticker shock, but when you look at the end result (10 buildings, 20+ acres pf park space, 3,000 parking spots, a resilient riverfront, a new marina, tons of new residential density, riverfront retail and restaurants, and a more market appropriate, smart convention center solution than a $500 million-$1.5 billion project elsewhere), it feels like a bargain. If there's a way for the city to debt-finance half of the project and allocate $25 million or so from the CIP annually for the next decade as it was built out, feels like a no brainer.

While there were some big names tossed,the DIA's reality is that the Laura Street Trio still hasn't broken ground yet and neither has the garage across the street. Even if they decide to have a developer master plan the riverfront, there would still be some caution they'd have to display at this point, as well as allow for other development groups to compete for the opportunity.

QuoteParticularly when the alternative is watching the DIA drag their feet on each individual parcel for years, with no real unified plan or vision. The Atkins plan - if it worked out - feels like it could be in motion and completed a decade or more before whatever the DIA is doing.

Obviously nothing more renders in a video right now, and the devil is always in the details, but would hate to see the DIA dismiss this thing outright purely out of insecurity or arrogance.

Yes, the devil will be in the details, if this gets to a point where the details can be vetted and discussed.

Two thoughts for now:

(1) How does the DIA approach to Atkins plan compare to that of Khan's?  Given Khan's uneven track record of not delivering the fully proposed design on Daily's Place, the Lot J fiasco, the Met Park "screw the National Park Service" plan and the endless messing around with the Shipyards, at this point, is he that much more credible in delivering his renderings over anyone else?

(2)  Riverfront Parks Now may also have some concepts for DIA to consider that could impact these various plans.  I would like to see their ideas incorporated into a master planning process if they differ substantially from Atkins and Khan.

Does anyone have the slightest idea if the Landing bids will include the construction of any buildings or is just merely landscaping?

Quote from: landfall on June 07, 2021, 05:35:27 PM
Does anyone have the slightest idea if the Landing bids will include the construction of any buildings or is just merely landscaping?

The only buildings that would be included right now are park-related infrastructure, so maybe bathrooms, maintenance and the like. Any vertical construction of development isn't happening until after that, because that's the DIA's great plan.

The Landing park plans won't include vertical private development. The consulting teams competing aren't developers. Instead, they'll focus on the park design itself and leave pads for future vertical private sector development.  I think people will see that being a major difference between what the DIA will produce and what Atkins has shown. Don't expect a DIA master plan to suggest what building should be a hotel, food hall or condo tower. Those are things the market will have to decide.

https://jaxriverfront.com/

Theres a website live and also social media pages setup, they're pretty gungho with the publicity of it. Videos, renderings, appearances, media coverage, now a website.

Still, as said above, its taken them long enough to get going on the Laura Street Trio and thats a drop in the ocean comparatively.

(https://i.ibb.co/HKcWTZh/riverfront-plan.png)

Southeast Development announced the addition of 300 residential units to their master plan, increasing the total number of units to 1,005. This includes 255 additional market-rate apartments and 45 condos. 

Really great step towards increasing the density and viability of this project.  I think Perkins & Will has a better plan for the Landing park but everything else in Southeast's plan looks great. If the city embraces it, I think this would be a major win for downtown and the riverfront especially when you factor in the potential park at the Shipyards and a forthcoming proposal from Fuqua for the TU property. Jax finally embracing the St Johns River might end up being the best thing to come out of the 2020's.

Here's updated renderings:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6M6_-yWUAgd4WK?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

Are they replacing the Hyatt?  It looks like it, but I can't tell for sure.

The original plan called for keeping the Hyatt and building the exhibition space out on the land they have right of first refusal over. Not sure if this most recent update impacted that.

QuoteDeveloper adds high-rise to riverfront master plan

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Steve-Atkins-Riverfront-Plans/i-dTGf2M7/0/ef6f8f25/L/RF%20Update%20_4&5_07.01.21-L.jpg)

The SouthEast Development Group adds 300 multifamily units to Riverfront Jacksonville Master Plan. Changes are said to reflect market demand for more housing.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/developer-adds-high-rise-to-riverfront-master-plan/

Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 13, 2021, 11:00:48 PM
Are they replacing the Hyatt?  It looks like it, but I can't tell for sure.

No, the Hyatt is to the right of the area shown in the rendering. The parking garage/former state building is getting replaced, which is about where the yachts are.

Anyway, I think this is a good move. 1000 new units right in the heart of the Northbank would be absolutely incredible.

This is all talk right?  I mean, until I see some type of agreement with the city on this it's just a bunch of hot air.  Southeast has done a great job with the Barnett but they have been struggling for year to get the Trio off the ground.  I'd love to see this but come on...

Quote from: acme54321 on July 14, 2021, 10:30:44 AM
This is all talk right?  I mean, until I see some type of agreement with the city on this it's just a bunch of hot air.  Southeast has done a great job with the Barnett but they have been struggling for year to get the Trio off the ground.  I'd love to see this but come on...

Expect a formal proposal to be submitted to the DIA before the end of summer

Quote from: Zac T on July 14, 2021, 11:21:36 AM

Quote from: acme54321 on July 14, 2021, 10:30:44 AM
This is all talk right?  I mean, until I see some type of agreement with the city on this it's just a bunch of hot air.  Southeast has done a great job with the Barnett but they have been struggling for year to get the Trio off the ground.  I'd love to see this but come on...

Expect a formal proposal to be submitted to the DIA before the end of summer

Hopefully they have a Plan A (including the Landing) and Plan B (excluding Landing).

Quote from: Zac T on July 13, 2021, 09:22:44 PM
Southeast Development announced the addition of 300 residential units to their master plan, increasing the total number of units to 1,005. This includes 255 additional market-rate apartments and 45 condos. 

Really great step towards increasing the density and viability of this project.  I think Perkins & Will has a better plan for the Landing park but everything else in Southeast's plan looks great. If the city embraces it, I think this would be a major win for downtown and the riverfront especially when you factor in the potential park at the Shipyards and a forthcoming proposal from Fuqua for the TU property. Jax finally embracing the St Johns River might end up being the best thing to come out of the 2020's.

Here's updated renderings:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6M6_-yWUAgd4WK?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

I agree, nice rendering and addition and hope the Council embraces it and it moves forward unless world war 3 breaks out; let's hope and pray that doesn't happen. Or...the economy tanks...hope and pray that doesn't happen either. I like what I see. A decent "height" and more density on the Northbank Riverfront!

Quote from: acme54321 on July 14, 2021, 10:30:44 AM
This is all talk right?  I mean, until I see some type of agreement with the city on this it's just a bunch of hot air.  Southeast has done a great job with the Barnett but they have been struggling for year to get the Trio off the ground.  I'd love to see this but come on...

Yeah. A couple of other people have echoed your thoughts on here. They've struggled to get the trio renovations going yet we're expecting them to be capable of firing up 10 (11 now?) buildings and a whole newly landscaped riverfront?

The idea is great, but in a practical sense I am a bit sceptical they have it in them to deliver this.

I'm a bit skeptical, too, but the one thing that makes this project easier is the fact they won't have to get the NPS sign-off like with the Laura St. Trio. One less beauracracy to navigate.

Maybe SouthEast's end game is something short of the Full Monty.  It's hard for me to think that they themselves believe they would ever develop and build everything in their plan.

Personally, I wish they would just focus on the trio for now.

Public Waterfront property too valuable to be consigned to private residence. No matter what " Demand".What a Classic Planner and Consult Crook.Crock. Easy to round up investors..... to " Fight" such a proposal.
The demand for public waterfront property place preeminent.

I get the skepticism, but this beats the pants off the embarrassing Spandrel debacle. The DIA should happily engage on any proposal and adjust the scope to fit in with THEIR strategy. Just like the Four Seasons, this will require a 30 day disposition for competitive bids if it moves forward. If there's competition during that time, we can always hit pause and rethink.

I've got full faith that Southeast can pull this off over the course of a decade. And I also don't hold the Trio delay against them. Barnett was way more expensive than originally planned and I don't blame them for going back for a revised incentives package. Bigger issue here is obviously whether the city is willing to borrow over half a billion dollars from Goldman Sachs to see the plan through.

So it sounds like they're starting over with Spandrel.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-could-start-over-on-the-ford-on-bay-site-redevelopment

QuoteDowntown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer said Aug. 6 she will recommend the agency's board put The Ford on Bay property back on the market as the project's developer seeks changes to its proposal.

A DIA board committee could vote as soon as Aug. 13 to terminate the agency's tentative agreement with New York City-based Spandrel Development Partners LLC, according to meeting agenda documents released Aug. 6.

I spoke with Jake Gordon a few weeks ago, and he gave a very unsatisfying answer as to why the DIA was dragging its feet on responding to Southeast's proposal. Essentially a whole thing about plans being interrupted and how would you feel if someone wanted to build your house for you, or whatever.

Get fucked Spandrel. You screwed around long enough on what was an average proposal at best for a prime site.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2021, 06:59:35 AM
So it sounds like they're starting over with Spandrel.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-could-start-over-on-the-ford-on-bay-site-redevelopment

QuoteDowntown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer said Aug. 6 she will recommend the agency's board put The Ford on Bay property back on the market as the project's developer seeks changes to its proposal.

A DIA board committee could vote as soon as Aug. 13 to terminate the agency's tentative agreement with New York City-based Spandrel Development Partners LLC, according to meeting agenda documents released Aug. 6.

I spoke with Jake Gordon a few weeks ago, and he gave a very unsatisfying answer as to why the DIA was dragging its feet on responding to Southeast's proposal. Essentially a whole thing about plans being interrupted and how would you feel if someone wanted to build your house for you, or whatever.

From the same article:

QuoteBoyer said COVID-19 shutdowns in March 2020 temporarily halted Spandrel's access to capital markets and the company had delays in financing the project.

The DIA and Spandrel resumed ongoing negotiations about April 2020, according to Boyer.

So you can blame one month of delays on COVID; what is the excuse for the lack of progress during the other ~16 months? Not to mention the head-in-the sand approach to the Hyatt situation.

Quote from: landfall on August 09, 2021, 07:57:25 AM
Get fucked Spandrel. You screwed around long enough on what was an average proposal at best for a prime site.

I'd be bold enough to say that it's a decent proposal, but only in the absence of any others. Now that we know there are alternatives, alternatives backed by the likes of Goldman Sachs, that actually work with Hyatt and substantially improve on the profile of the property, we owe it to the future to pick those alternatives. Spandrel's proposal, as acceptable as it is, could go basically anywhere else on the riverfront or even off it.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on August 09, 2021, 12:13:44 PM

Quote from: landfall on August 09, 2021, 07:57:25 AM
Get fucked Spandrel. You screwed around long enough on what was an average proposal at best for a prime site.

I'd be bold enough to say that it's a decent proposal, but only in the absence of any others. Now that we know there are alternatives, alternatives backed by the likes of Goldman Sachs, that actually work with Hyatt and substantially improve on the profile of the property, we owe it to the future to pick those alternatives. Spandrel's proposal, as acceptable as it is, could go basically anywhere else on the riverfront or even off it.

I agree; we owe it to the future to pick ONE of those alternatives if there are several; pick, round up, compare, select, approve.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on July 15, 2021, 12:05:19 AM
I've got full faith that Southeast can pull this off over the course of a decade. And I also don't hold the Trio delay against them. Barnett was way more expensive than originally planned and I don't blame them for going back for a revised incentives package. Bigger issue here is obviously whether the city is willing to borrow over half a billion dollars from Goldman Sachs to see the plan through.

I have zero confidence in Southeast to deliver even half what they proposed. Forget the Trio - they couldn't even build a parking garage!

QuoteNow that we know there are alternatives, alternatives backed by the likes of Goldman Sachs

Except that its not.  Goldman's involvement would be to finance the public bonds for the infrastructure needed for this grand 'plan'. 

GS isn't financing spec office buildings in DT Jacksonville.

Take note: Jacksonville Florida, the hottest city in North America that no one wants a part of.

Quote from: MusicMan on August 09, 2021, 09:37:19 PM
Take note: Jacksonville Florida, the hottest city in North America that no one wants a part of.

And don't forget, one of the largest in the U.S.A....that no one wants a part of (and that's strange).

Quote from: MusicMan on August 09, 2021, 09:37:19 PM
Take note: Jacksonville Florida, the hottest city in North America that no one wants a part of.

Also not true.  There is plenty of money coming into Jacksonville.

It can be equally true that this Riverfront Jacksonville PR push is mostly just that... pretty renderings designed to make people think that all this financing is lined up on all these pieces of properties that the development team doesn't even own.

OK I'm just thinking of the CBD...which still has too many vacant lots and empty buildings , plus waterfront parcels waiting on ___________.

After doing this for over 20 years, I am absolutely convinced that politics and poor public policy are the root causes of why Downtown's Northbank struggles. 

Was in Dade County over the weekend and visited Wynwood.  They're taking forgotten areas down there and electrifying them. It was so cool. Had forgotten what urban renewal was all about.

MusicMan... Yep, it's downright depressing traveling to other cities around the country and then remembering how dead it is here.

With the Ford on Bay going back out to bid (posted more on that in its dedicated thread https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35873.270.html (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35873.270.html)), it will be interesting to see if Southeast participates in the DIA process by bidding on that site to fit in with their vision -- or is it "all or nothing"? I would think abstaining from any part of the new bid would effectively kill any life their master plan had.

Bill Gates takes control of Four Seasons Hotels.  Now, Khan can talk billionaire-to-billionaire!  And, every room can feature Microsoft products :).  Maybe Khan can get Microsoft to build out a division here while he is at it.

QuoteBill Gates will take control of the Four Seasons hotel chain after his investment firm agreed to acquire a stake from Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's Kingdom Holding Co., in a bet that luxury travel will rebound from a pandemic-induced slump.

....Gates's Cascade Investment will pay $2.2 billion in cash to boost its stake in Four Seasons Holdings to 71.25% from 47.5%, according to a statement Wednesday....

...The chain now manages 121 hotels and resorts, and 46 residential properties, and has more than 50 projects under development, according to the statement....

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/bill-gatess-firm-buys-part-of-saudi-princes-four-seasons-stake/

Whatever.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 08, 2021, 06:08:20 PM
Bill Gates takes control of Four Seasons Hotels.  Now, Khan can talk billionaire-to-billionaire!  And, every room can feature Microsoft products :).  Maybe Khan can get Microsoft to build out a division here while he is at it.

QuoteBill Gates will take control of the Four Seasons hotel chain after his investment firm agreed to acquire a stake from Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's Kingdom Holding Co., in a bet that luxury travel will rebound from a pandemic-induced slump.

....Gates's Cascade Investment will pay $2.2 billion in cash to boost its stake in Four Seasons Holdings to 71.25% from 47.5%, according to a statement Wednesday....

...The chain now manages 121 hotels and resorts, and 46 residential properties, and has more than 50 projects under development, according to the statement....

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/bill-gatess-firm-buys-part-of-saudi-princes-four-seasons-stake/

You, uh... in the wrong thread, buddy? Not sure what Microsoft or Khan have to do with Steve Atkins/Southeast's proposal for the riverfront.

Quote from: marcuscnelson on September 08, 2021, 11:30:12 PM

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 08, 2021, 06:08:20 PM
Bill Gates takes control of Four Seasons Hotels.  Now, Khan can talk billionaire-to-billionaire!  And, every room can feature Microsoft products :).  Maybe Khan can get Microsoft to build out a division here while he is at it.

QuoteBill Gates will take control of the Four Seasons hotel chain after his investment firm agreed to acquire a stake from Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal's Kingdom Holding Co., in a bet that luxury travel will rebound from a pandemic-induced slump.

....Gates's Cascade Investment will pay $2.2 billion in cash to boost its stake in Four Seasons Holdings to 71.25% from 47.5%, according to a statement Wednesday....

...The chain now manages 121 hotels and resorts, and 46 residential properties, and has more than 50 projects under development, according to the statement....

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/bill-gatess-firm-buys-part-of-saudi-princes-four-seasons-stake/

You, uh... in the wrong thread, buddy? Not sure what Microsoft or Khan have to do with Steve Atkins/Southeast's proposal for the riverfront.

Yeah, I was rushed when I posted this.  Since the Forum doesn't seem to have a search feature (given the number of threads, it would really be an asset!), I grabbed the wrong thread in a hurry.  Saw "riverfront" and popped it in.  The rest of my comments were a feeble attempt at humor but seems everyone here tonight is kind of "serious."

Quote from: fieldafm on August 10, 2021, 09:18:19 AM
After doing this for over 20 years, I am absolutely convinced that politics and poor public policy are the root causes of why Downtown's Northbank struggles. 

All areas and neighborhoods of downtown are important, but in my opinion the Northbank has suffered the most, and the worst and should be a top tier priority; just my opinion and just saying. Why? Because THAT area of Jax is where Jacksonville was created/born, and, THAT area is truly THE downtown that we've all known and been associated with; that's why.

Shots fired.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rsrWbyMB/F4196-BFD-35-DC-417-B-B076-C70553-DD38-CE.jpg)

Building goodwill with the DIA, I see

Akins is meeting with the chamber on Friday it seems

Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 11, 2021, 09:56:09 AM
Shots fired.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rsrWbyMB/F4196-BFD-35-DC-417-B-B076-C70553-DD38-CE.jpg)

LOL!!! This is hilarious

^ Maybe some people are good with all or some of the LERP proposal.  I don't think developers should have so much influence that they ultimately decide for everyone what's "best."  As noted before, DIA got off on the wrong foot with this by not being more transparent and inviting wider community support.  Now we have this.  I hope if they back up, it's done right by the entire community, not just by Atkins and Khan types.  Listening to just the power players is exactly how we get into Lot J type scenarios.  When will the City learn this lesson?

The above said, for me, I am not convinced that the LERP isn't the, or close to the, iconic structure Jax needs to have to get on more maps.  As I posted before, I doubt any "iconic" landmark is going to be totally non-controversial.  In fact, it's often controversy that makes it iconic.  Maybe Jax is just too risk adverse as has been demonstrated repeatedly in the past.  And, thus, this response is both a reflection of the Clty's leadership and why we don't have more success Downtown.

The only "risks" our City leaders like to take are those involving giving millions to wealthy developers to subsidize often questionable projects that are far less than iconic (see Daily's Place, the Hyatt, numerous boxy hotels and apartment projects, etc.).

FWIW, I like the LERP. But holistically, I prefer Atkins' proposal to everything the DIA has cooked up on the Northbank. Whether it's realistic or not....well, I have at least as much faith in him as I do the DIA.

Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 11, 2021, 10:34:12 PM
FWIW, I like the LERP. But holistically, I prefer Atkins' proposal to everything the DIA has cooked up on the Northbank. Whether it's realistic or not....well, I have at least as much faith in him as I do the DIA.

I love the proposal. I also felt the Landing park proposals were just settling for something cheap and easy because they weren't capable of better. However I'm not sure Atkins has it in his locker to get this done as much as I like the idea. We've seen how drawn out the trio has been, so is he going to be capable of throwing up 10/12 buildings and landscaping a whole new riverfront?

Until theres a shovel in the ground, its all just renderings to me, bro.

^That's why I hope he engages with the Ford on Bay RFP. I like his master plan approach from a PR perspective, because it fills the void the DIA can't seem to fill (a cohesive vision for the riverfront). But the likelihood of getting that unsolicited proposal greenlit anywhere close to as-is must be close to impossible.

Sell the vision to the public, then engage with the process to achieve as much of it as possible.  If it has to be "all or nothing" for the financing and return models to work, then yeah -- it's just fancy renderings.

Quote from: landfall on September 12, 2021, 07:17:35 AM

Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 11, 2021, 10:34:12 PM
FWIW, I like the LERP. But holistically, I prefer Atkins' proposal to everything the DIA has cooked up on the Northbank. Whether it's realistic or not....well, I have at least as much faith in him as I do the DIA.

I love the proposal. I also felt the Landing park proposals were just settling for something cheap and easy because they weren't capable of better. However I'm not sure Atkins has it in his locker to get this done as much as I like the idea. We've seen how drawn out the trio has been, so is he going to be capable of throwing up 10/12 buildings and landscaping a whole new riverfront?

Until theres a shovel in the ground, its all just renderings to me, bro.

I don't like the proposal, but overall agree with what you said.

Quote from: jaxlongtimer on September 11, 2021, 10:22:50 PM
^ Maybe some people are good with all or some of the LERP proposal.  I don't think developers should have so much influence that they ultimately decide for everyone what's "best."  As noted before, DIA got off on the wrong foot with this by not being more transparent and inviting wider community support.  Now we have this.  I hope if they back up, it's done right by the entire community, not just by Atkins and Khan types.  Listening to just the power players is exactly how we get into Lot J type scenarios.  When will the City learn this lesson?

The above said, for me, I am not convinced that the LERP isn't the, or close to the, iconic structure Jax needs to have to get on more maps.  As I posted before, I doubt any "iconic" landmark is going to be totally non-controversial.  In fact, it's often controversy that makes it iconic.  Maybe Jax is just too risk adverse as has been demonstrated repeatedly in the past.  And, thus, this response is both a reflection of the Clty's leadership and why we don't have more success Downtown.

I love the LERP proposal, and I think some simple changes to the scripting of the sculpture would make it much more popular.

And, I also love the idea of Jacksonville actually following through on something and rewarding the good faith of the companies like P+W who put months of work, research, surveying, and prep into their proposals rather than the city just changing its mind AGAIN, burning developers, and wasting everyone's time (see: convention center RFP; Ford on Bay; Shipyards; LaVilla Townhouses; etc).

I think it's pretty shameful that the DIA is backtracking because of negative public commentary, and it badly undermines whatever credibility they've got left.

I also think the average Jacksonville citizen wants to have their cake and eat it too in terms of bitching about outcomes without making the effort to be part of the process. The Landing design competition was very well publicized across local and social media. The meetings were streamed live. The DIA specifically asked for public input and provided a fairly long window to receive it. It was even factored in informally to the scoring.

But now, after the fact, all the dopey headline-readers on the socials who offered no feedback at the appropriate time want to cry because they don't like it because, from a very specific angle, a work-in-progress sculpture - which P+W clearly stated would be tweaked based on public feedback - looks like a non-existent word.

At the downtown council meeting this morning, Steve Atkins gave a half-answer when asked whether he would participate in the RFP process for the Ford on Bay property but sounded like he might. A formal proposal for the Riverfront plan should be submitted in a few weeks and he said he's committed to seeing it through and is also looking at opportunities for affordable housing downtown.

He projected a November start to the Laura Street Trio and expects it to be a 24-month long project

Can someone tell me what iconic sculpture put Greenville SC on the map, and draws so many people to it?

Answer: there isn't one. I'd rather see the DIA / COJ spend the $11 to $15 million dollars on renovating and restoring what's left of our historic building stock, or supporting that effort. That will do more in the long term to revitalize downtown then the 'LERP/xaJ' sculpture ever will.

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 11:37:33 AMI'd rather see the DIA / COJ spend the $11 to $15 million dollars on renovating and restoring what's left of our historic building stock, or supporting that effort. That will do more in the long term to revitalize downtown then the 'LERP/xaJ' sculpture ever will.

It doesn't need to be an either/or, though.

There's no reason we can't do both.

An iconic, Instagrammable art installation at the former Landing will do more to draw out-of-town visitors to the Laura Street corridor from the sports complex, for example, than restoring an old building.

And restoring historic building stock into active uses will give said visitors somewhere to spend money when they arrive.

Both things work together.

But, ultimately comes down to the old adage that you need to spend money to make money.

If the city cheaps out on the Landing - including the art installation - they shouldn't be surprised if the resulting impact is muted.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 17, 2021, 01:12:40 PMthey shouldn't be surprised if the resulting impact is muted.

They would be shocked.  We all know it.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 17, 2021, 01:12:40 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 11:37:33 AMI'd rather see the DIA / COJ spend the $11 to $15 million dollars on renovating and restoring what's left of our historic building stock, or supporting that effort. That will do more in the long term to revitalize downtown then the 'LERP/xaJ' sculpture ever will.

It doesn't need to be an either/or, though.

There's no reason we can't do both.

If imagine if we just committed to spending $200 to $250 million on downtown now, like we were going to do for Lot J? You could fund this park, art piece and all, and a lot more.

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 11:37:33 AM
Can someone tell me what iconic sculpture put Greenville SC on the map, and draws so many people to it?

The Eiffel Tower made Paris. It was all cow pastures prior to.

New York City was literally built around the ankles of the Statue of Liberty.

The workers who transformed San Fran from a fishing village into a metropolis sailed under the Golden Gate Bridge to get there.

Lesson 1 in developing great cities: build your icon, they will come.

Perhaps Greenville hasn't learned that lesson yet, but Jax is about to hold a tutorial.

Quote from: acme54321 on September 17, 2021, 02:19:30 PM

Quote from: Ken_FSU on September 17, 2021, 01:12:40 PMthey shouldn't be surprised if the resulting impact is muted.

They would be shocked.  We all know it.

Yup. Underfund the project upfront to hedge your bets, then bemoan its inevitable failure and use it as justification to shortchange the next project. Wash, rinse, repeat, so you have plenty of cash to tear down the next historical building in a hurry.

Quote from: fsu813 on September 17, 2021, 04:43:39 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 11:37:33 AM
Can someone tell me what iconic sculpture put Greenville SC on the map, and draws so many people to it?

The Eiffel Tower made Paris. It was all cow pastures prior to.

New York City was literally built around the ankles of the Statue of Liberty.

The workers who transformed San Fran from a fishing village into a metropolis sailed under the Golden Gate Bridge to get there.

Lesson 1 in developing great cities: build your icon, they will come.

Perhaps Greenville hasn't learned that lesson yet, but Jax is about to hold a tutorial.

I don't know if Greenville is he best example.  That curved pedestrian bridge is pretty much an iconic structure, along with the surrounding park, that played a pretty big role in the areas revivalization.

Quote from: acme54321 on September 17, 2021, 05:27:47 PM

Quote from: fsu813 on September 17, 2021, 04:43:39 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 11:37:33 AM
Can someone tell me what iconic sculpture put Greenville SC on the map, and draws so many people to it?

The Eiffel Tower made Paris. It was all cow pastures prior to.

New York City was literally built around the ankles of the Statue of Liberty.

The workers who transformed San Fran from a fishing village into a metropolis sailed under the Golden Gate Bridge to get there.

Lesson 1 in developing great cities: build your icon, they will come.

Perhaps Greenville hasn't learned that lesson yet, but Jax is about to hold a tutorial.

I don't know if Greenville is he best example.  That curved pedestrian bridge is pretty much an iconic structure, along with the surrounding park, that played a pretty big role in the areas revivalization.

Never heard of her.

^ Actually, Greenville considers the Liberty Bridge their icon.  It even has its own web page that declares it's the only type of its kind in the U.S.  It might not rival the Statue of Liberty, Golden Gate Bridge or Eiffel Tower, but then Greenville doesn't rival the cities those are in either.  Having visited Greenville, I can tell you most all their tourists make a point of crossing this bridge.

At a $4.5 million cost, circa 2003, it would likely be in the range of $10 million today.  Given Jacksonville's size relative to Greenville, spending $15 to $20+ million on an icon would not seem unreasonable.

QuoteThe vision for a dramatic public garden was finally realized when the Camperdown Bridge was removed in 2002. Using funds generated through a local hospitality tax, and building on the master plan designed in 1999 by landscape architect Andrea Mains, Falls Park was developed to include 20 acres of gardens showcasing Reedy River Falls. In August 2002, Mayor Knox White announced "In Full Bloom in 2003," a $13 million initiative to transform the park into a public garden and oasis. Included in the project was construction of a 355-foot-long, 12-foot-wide, curved suspension bridge that was designed by world-renowned architect Miguel Rosales to provide dramatic views of the upper falls and the gardens below. Additional designs called for a new park building with two levels of plazas, a private restaurant, public restrooms and the garden's maintenance facility to be located on the South Main Street end of the bridge.

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/178/History

QuoteGreenville's unique Liberty Bridge honors Liberty Corporation founder W. Frank Hipp and his children, Francis M. Hipp, Herman N. Hipp, B. Calhoun Hipp, and Dorothy Hipp Gunter for their commitment and contribution to the Greenville community.

The $4.5 million structure was funded by the City of Greenville's Hospitality Tax, which must be spent on tourism-related facilities.

The Liberty Bridge was constructed over a period of 12 months by Taylor and Murphy Construction Co. of Asheville, N.C., designed by bridge architect Miquel Rosales of Boston, and engineered by Schlaich Bergermann.

Chris Britton, structural division manager for Taylor and Murphy, describes the bridge as "an ultra lightweight bridge, which almost looks like it's floating on air."

At 345 feet long, 12 feet wide and 8 inches thick, the concrete reinforced deck is supported by a single suspension cable. The deck's distinctive curve has a radius of 214 feet and it is cantilevered toward the waterfall from supporting cables on the outside. The bridge deck also inclines 12 feet or 3% from east to west over the river...

....While bridges with similar structural concepts have been built in Europe, this bridge is unique in its geometry and there is nothing like it in the United States.

Below the bridge the 28 foot Reedy River Falls is the site where Greenville's first European settler, Richard Pearis, established his trading post in 1768. Later he built grist and saw mills at this same location which was the hub of early industry in Greenville until the 1920s.

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/175/Liberty-Bridge (https://www.greenvillesc.gov/175/Liberty-Bridge)

(https://www.rosalespartners.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Liberty-Bridge-Greenville-SC-A.jpg)

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/july-greenville-south-carolina-usa-liberty-bridge-falls-park-july-greenville-south-carolina-usa-liberty-bridge-falls-195170060.jpg)

Speaking of iconic pedestrian suspension bridges, here is another located on Jeju Island, South Korea:

(https://static.vecteezy.com/system/resources/thumbnails/003/153/924/small_2x/time-lapse-of-saeyeongyo-bridge-in-jeju-island-south-korea-free-video.jpg)

(https://youimg1.tripcdn.com/target/100m1f000001gzonl6BFD_C_750_420.jpg_.webp?proc=source%2Ftrip)

You know, I've walked on that bridge and taken pictures of my kids all over that  bridge and park. So I see what you are saying. I guess my only observation is that it's so seamlessly woven into the natural elevation and topography of the spot it seems as if it's always been there.
Can we pull off something like that? 

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 06:57:01 PM
You know, I've walked on that bridge and taken pictures of my kids all over that  bridge and park. So I see what you are saying. I guess my only observation is that it's so seamlessly woven into the natural elevation and topography of the spot it seems as if it's always been there.
Can we pull off something like that?

The Jax is structured to be interactive--water features, dynamic lighting, and walkable under/through/and around. I understand you're not a fan--but I think the intent is there to have some of those kind of elements to activate the art. If there's a proposal to change the design and achieve the same goals, I wouldn't complain.

The Landing was iconic but we tore it down. Anyone know of another city that had an orange roof colored horseshoe shaped structure in the heart of its skyline? One could argue that the Main Street Bridge is also iconic......just as much as that pedestrian bridge in Greensville. However, we have not designed spaces around it to take advantage of its status.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2021, 09:57:34 PM
The Landing was iconic but we tore it down. Anyone know of another city that had an orange roof colored horseshoe shaped structure in the heart of its skyline? One could argue that the Main Street Bridge is also iconic......just as much as that pedestrian bridge in Greensville. However, we have not designed spaces around it to take advantage of its status.

Growing up in Jacksonville, no one really paid attention to the Main Street Bridge (MSB).  In fact, I would argue the original Acosta Bridge may have been more iconic in its day.  That said, I believe the MSB moved toward "iconic" status when it was incorporated into the 2005 Super Bowl logo.  I laughed to myself at the time, thinking this is the best Jax can offer to symbolize the city?  Really? 

That said, calling the MSB a Jax icon today demonstrates that sometimes an icon evolves, it is not simply declared.  It's taken some 80 years for the MSB to move into icon status.  It also demonstrates how historic (translated, aging structures that somehow outlasted their peers that were lost to indiscriminate demolitions) structures often are the real icons of a community and, thus, should be preserved.  You can bet that when the Trio is restored it will become an icon for Downtown.

Speaking of the MSB, I will reiterate its greatest moment came during the 2005 Super Bowl when it was closed to all vehicular traffic and was wall-to-wall pedestrians crossing back and forth across the river.  Today, we should look at partitioning a lane on the MSB to mimic that time and mirror the pedestrian crossing on the Fuller Warren Bridge.  Connecting the two crossings on either side of the river with the Riverwalks would make a great pedestrian loop through Downtown.

I think you're right about the MSB.  These older lift span bridges are disappearing and being replaced so it's become more rare.  Not only that, but it's blue so it stands out and is visible from 95.  Luckily, due to its location, a fixed span can't be reasonably built high enough to maintain 75' accosts the channel or it'd probably be gone too.

^ It stood out even more during the Super Bowl, especially with the American flags on the towers.  We taxpayers spent millions on decorative/architectural lighting of all our bridges and within just a few years all of it was non-functional.  Effectively, it was all done to look good for one week and after that the City didn't care.

It will be interesting how our bridges hold up with rising seas and the river.  Wonder if anyone has looked into that.

Here is the MSB from the time of the Super Bowl:

(https://www.jacksonville.com/storyimage/LK/20150131/NEWS/801238428/AR/0/AR-801238428.jpg)

I haven't been to Jax at night since moving back to North Florida, but did they keep the blue lighting?

Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 17, 2021, 08:39:53 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 06:57:01 PM
You know, I've walked on that bridge and taken pictures of my kids all over that  bridge and park. So I see what you are saying. I guess my only observation is that it's so seamlessly woven into the natural elevation and topography of the spot it seems as if it's always been there.
Can we pull off something like that?

The Jax is structured to be interactive--water features, dynamic lighting, and walkable under/through/and around. I understand you're not a fan--but I think the intent is there to have some of those kind of elements to activate the art. If there's a proposal to change the design and achieve the same goals, I wouldn't complain.

Jacksonville has a long and storied history of failing to maintain anything with water features and dynamic lighting

In downtown Jax now. Surveying going on at Broad and Forsyth. Anyone know what's going there? Light crane doing work at the Ambassador Hotel. Looks Like they're tearing the old windows out. Large parking garage on block north of Wells Fargo building is underway it seems, as is the Laura Trio. Seems the Orleck will be here before the end of the year...a friend of mine posted it in one of my Navy forums I Admin...Navy Vets are wetting their pants over that. Lot of "stuff" taking shape in big Jax.

Quote from: Bativac on September 20, 2021, 12:49:57 AM

Quote from: jaxoNOLE on September 17, 2021, 08:39:53 PM

Quote from: MusicMan on September 17, 2021, 06:57:01 PM
You know, I've walked on that bridge and taken pictures of my kids all over that  bridge and park. So I see what you are saying. I guess my only observation is that it's so seamlessly woven into the natural elevation and topography of the spot it seems as if it's always been there.
Can we pull off something like that?

The Jax is structured to be interactive--water features, dynamic lighting, and walkable under/through/and around. I understand you're not a fan--but I think the intent is there to have some of those kind of elements to activate the art. If there's a proposal to change the design and achieve the same goals, I wouldn't complain.

Jacksonville has a long and storied history of failing to maintain anything with water features and dynamic lighting

True, but I think that highlights a needed change in our MO vs. throwing in the towel and saying we can't support those types of amenities. If we avoid building new versions of things we have historically neglected, we should also be avoiding parks, schools, and anything downtown (if you'll forgive a bit of hyperbole).  There's a lot of discussion over the design, but that discussion pales in comparison to the question of whether the city will actually commit resources to both build and maintain anything that resembles the vision articulated by the bidders. Not to mention the other in-design proposals downtown that would also require ongoing maintenance.

Quote from: heights unknown on September 20, 2021, 01:23:05 PM
In downtown Jax now. Surveying going on at Broad and Forsyth. Anyone know what's going there? Light crane doing work at the Ambassador Hotel. Looks Like they're tearing the old windows out. Large parking garage on block north of Wells Fargo building is underway it seems, as is the Laura Trio. Seems the Orleck will be here before the end of the year...a friend of mine posted it in one of my Navy forums I Admin...Navy Vets are wetting their pants over that. Lot of "stuff" taking shape in big Jax.

Interesting they are starting working on the Trio already.

Quote from: landfall on September 20, 2021, 03:03:34 PM

Quote from: heights unknown on September 20, 2021, 01:23:05 PM
In downtown Jax now. Surveying going on at Broad and Forsyth. Anyone know what's going there? Light crane doing work at the Ambassador Hotel. Looks Like they're tearing the old windows out. Large parking garage on block north of Wells Fargo building is underway it seems, as is the Laura Trio. Seems the Orleck will be here before the end of the year...a friend of mine posted it in one of my Navy forums I Admin...Navy Vets are wetting their pants over that. Lot of "stuff" taking shape in big Jax.

Interesting they are starting working on the Trio already.

What I meant was I saw people milling around the Trio; what they were doing, really, I do not know. I just assumed some type of work, whether inspecting, surveying, etc., seems to be underway.

Atkins has increased the scope of his proposed master plan to rope in everything else along the Northbank (including Khan/Iguana's proposed projects) and apparently some other ideas for downtown.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/10/21/developer-wants-to-tie-new-downtown-projects-together-with-1-billion-master-plan/

QuoteLast June he summited his ideas for what he thinks should go near the former Landing and City Hall sites. Now he has drawn up a new map and presented it to the city as a master plan for the city to follow.

He believes the city needs to think of the riverfront as a whole and not piece out individual projects.

He is also suggesting:

• 15 acres of riverfront public park and plaza spaces with resiliency infrastructure
• More than 1,000 multifamily units (including apartments and condominiums)
• A 208-room, entertainment-oriented, boutique-style hotel
• 90,000 square feet of well-certified office space, which could be converted to multifamily based on market demand
• 155,000 square feet of retail, restaurant and entertainment space
• A 280,000 square-foot Exhibition, Entertainment & Technology Center with retail and virtual venues
• Approximately 4,500 structured parking spaces across five garages
• An expanded pier with retail and entertainment venues

Adkins's ideas were not solicited by the city. He just wants them to be considered.

He estimates the project could cost around $2 billion. He is not asking the city for any money upfront and said he does have some financial backers and needs to act quickly. Adkins has several successful downtown projects including the renovation of the Old Barnett Bank building. He is also involved in the Laura Street trio proposals.

News4Jax reached out to the Downtown Investment Authority and the mayor's office for comment. The mayor's staff said the project is ambitious and exciting. His staff went on to say that the DIA should hear from all entities who have a willingness to invest in downtown.

(https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gmg/C5JHUVXC4FBLTMUHYOVLXYVHTQ.png)

We have more downtown renderings in the last decade than Jags have losses.

They should remove all parcels they and COJ don't own for a more realistic look at what can logically be done.

My favorite part of that is the removal of the rest of the expressway ramps (and jail/Sulzbacher) to restore the street grid in that area with the big park along Hogan's Creek. 

Quote from: thelakelander on October 22, 2021, 07:42:51 AM
They should remove all parcels they and COJ don't own for a more realistic look at what can logically be done.

I agree. My first reaction here is I do like the plan overall, putting aside my feelings of how realistic given the market aside. I'd have to go through a few times to understand the details of some things, but conceptually, it's the kind of thing the City should be showing, not Atkins.

I also get why they show projects they don't oversee (Jags practice facility, Four Seasons site, etc.). And actually, there isn't much not owned by COJ in this rendering actually. The main things would be the Hyatt, and the Run up of Catherine Street. There are others, like Berkman 1/2 and a few things like that, but in those examples I don't think they're trying to take credit for those developments (or maybe they are, who knows).

Bottom line is this - this rendering is what DIA was capable of putting together 5 years ago. Why didn't they?

DIA would be good to hire whatever firm is doing the graphics for Southeast. Yes, the master planning effort should have been publicly displayed in a similar fashion years ago for whatever long term strategy they have. The overall vision should never be kept in the dark. That hurts downtown more than helps it.

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2021, 10:35:00 AM
And actually, there isn't much not owned by COJ in this rendering actually. The main things would be the Hyatt, and the Run up of Catherine Street.

Looking at the overall plan a bit closer, the Catherine Street corridor is a huge chunk although it appears to be more of their vision....which is another topic, since visioning should be a community led effort. There are some projects that are overlapping in that the city or another entity is already attempting to do something with them. Nevertheless, yes the visioning stuff should have been done by the DIA years ago and not in a piecemeal fashion.

He's really hitting all the press this time, isn't he?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/atkins-ups-riverfront-jacksonville-proposal-to-dollar2-billion-adds-hydropower

Not sure how to feel about this bit:

QuoteHis proposal would only work as a master-planned development and SouthEast will not bid on piecemeal components as the DIA puts city-owned parcels on the market, Atkins said.

SouthEast's financial partners are investment banking firms Goldman Sachs and Piper Sandler & Co.

He said his Riverfront Jacksonville development partners need a major private sector capital investment opportunity for the project to be worth their time.

"If you break it up and slice it up into individual small pieces with no guarantee of other investments, it's not enough, frankly, for them to be interested," Atkins said.

Goldman knows how to make money but a bit surprised they see that huge of a chunk of DT Jax real estate as something worth pursuing. Given the city's track record of how they've managed these pieces decade after decade, may not be the worst idea in the world to let the big boys takeover. Didn't something similar happen with Detroit after their bankruptcy? As in the city council was basically given the back-seat as conditions of their bankruptcy arrangements?

QuoteGoldman knows how to make money but a bit surprised they see that huge of a chunk of DT Jax real estate as something worth pursuing

That's part of the showmanship of this carefully orchestrated PR campaign.

Goldman's involvement in this proposal would be as a bond holder for the public infrastructure financing for all of these pieces to come together. The City has to bond out money to pay for roads, and Lenny's Lawn, etc- and that's where Goldman comes in.  Goldman is already the underwriter/issuer for most of COJ's bonds.

What people think when they see/hear that 'Goldman Sachs wants to invest billions into Downtown' is that GS is lined up to finance a bunch of spec office buildings, a hotel and condo towers... which isn't really the case.

What about the other bank, Piper Sandler & Co.?

Quote from: fieldafm on October 22, 2021, 02:28:08 PM

QuoteGoldman knows how to make money but a bit surprised they see that huge of a chunk of DT Jax real estate as something worth pursuing

That's part of the showmanship of this carefully orchestrated PR campaign.

Goldman's involvement in this proposal would be as a bond holder for the public infrastructure financing for all of these pieces to come together. The City has to bond out money to pay for roads, and Lenny's Lawn, etc- and that's where Goldman comes in.  Goldman is already the underwriter/issuer for most of COJ's bonds.

What people think when they see/hear that 'Goldman Sachs wants to invest billions into Downtown' is that GS is lined up to finance a bunch of spec office buildings, a hotel and condo towers... which isn't really the case.

It's refreshing to see at least something related to downtown development be carefully orchestrated.

Here's the full updated proposal, from the Riverfront Jacksonville website:

https://jaxriverfront.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/SEG-21018_RiverfrontJax_ProposalDesign_M2_web-v2.pdf

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2021, 10:35:00 AMI agree. My first reaction here is I do like the plan overall, putting aside my feelings of how realistic given the market aside. I'd have to go through a few times to understand the details of some things, but conceptually, it's the kind of thing the City should be showing, not Atkins.

Bottom line is this - this rendering is what DIA was capable of putting together 5 years ago. Why didn't they?

100% agree, on all counts here.

In a perfect world, the city should be doing the master planning in conjunction with brilliant consultants with a proven track record of successful revitalizing major urban areas through master-planned development.

Unfortunately, we've got local politicians arbitrarily "master planning" downtown Jacksonville, under the cover of darkness, in piecemail fashion, driven less by overall vision and more by cronyism, secretive future plans, and unsubstantiated opinions about what works best where.

Literally every single RFP that the DIA has issued has been mired in some kind of bullshit before ultimately failing to materialize into anything of substance. We've seen three Shipyards/Met Park RFPs over the last decade from the DIA without a shovel in the ground. Ford on Bay is about to be RFP'd for the THIRD TIME, with nothing to show for it but a hole in the northbank and a right of first refusal. The DIA is already backtracking on the Landing park, and art installation, and timeline, and funding mechanism. They botched the LaVilla townhomes RFP. How long have we been waiting for the Times-Union Center park to begin construction? Or Friendship Park to finally begin major construction (doesn't look like much is going on there lately)?

I don't understand how anyone thinks that Lori Boyer and the DIA are qualified to unaliterally make major decisions that are going to shape our downtown for decades to come, nor do I understand how anyone who has closely watched downtown progress on the riverfront over the last decade can have any faith that Lori Boyer and the DIA have the ability to execute ANY of these plans to completion anytime within the next decade.

Atkins' plan leaves a LOT of questions to be answered, and the jury is still way out there in terms of financing and how realistic/market appropriate it actually is, but the updated proposal is more thorough, intelligent, thought-out, strategic, and developed than anything I've seen from the DIA over the last ten years. It's embarrassing what he's been able to pull together in two years - including letters of support from brands like Hard Rock and Marriott, buy-in from the Hyatt, and potential capital partners -  versus what the DIA has managed to pull together in ten.

I don't know if it's the right plan for downtown Jacksonville, but it's better than what we've got. And it would be fucking INSANE for the DIA to let their own egos, arrogance, insecurities, and utterly baseless confidence about their own abilities to move the riverfront forward stand in the way of at least allowing Atkins' plan to be fully vetted by the city and the public.

What's there to lose?

Here's one of the few people who has actually made a dent in redeveloping downtown Jacksonville in the last decade. He's restoring historic building stock. He's reeled in some great retail and hotel partners. He submitted a proposal for the JEA headquarters intended to save the iconic tower. And he's dumped two years of his life and over a million dollars into putting together a plan that he thinks will move Jacksonville forward.

And the DIA can't even be bothered to delay the Ford on Bay RFP that they've flubbed and then sat on for YEARS by a month to listen to what Southeast has to say?

It's just embarrassing.

Hear the guy out.

If it turns out to be smoke and mirrors, so be it, but at least vet the damn proposal instead of stubbornly moving forward with your next doomed stick apartments with 30% retail frontage on Bay Street.

^Well said.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 22, 2021, 08:14:34 PM

Quote from: Steve on October 22, 2021, 10:35:00 AMI agree. My first reaction here is I do like the plan overall, putting aside my feelings of how realistic given the market aside. I'd have to go through a few times to understand the details of some things, but conceptually, it's the kind of thing the City should be showing, not Atkins.

Bottom line is this - this rendering is what DIA was capable of putting together 5 years ago. Why didn't they?

100% agree, on all counts here.

In a perfect world, the city should be doing the master planning in conjunction with brilliant consultants with a proven track record of successful revitalizing major urban areas through master-planned development.

Unfortunately, we've got local politicians arbitrarily "master planning" downtown Jacksonville, under the cover of darkness, in piecemail fashion, driven less by overall vision and more by cronyism, secretive future plans, and unsubstantiated opinions about what works best where.

Literally every single RFP that the DIA has issued has been mired in some kind of bullshit before ultimately failing to materialize into anything of substance. We've seen three Shipyards/Met Park RFPs over the last decade from the DIA without a shovel in the ground. Ford on Bay is about to be RFP'd for the THIRD TIME, with nothing to show for it but a hole in the northbank and a right of first refusal. The DIA is already backtracking on the Landing park, and art installation, and timeline, and funding mechanism. They botched the LaVilla townhomes RFP. How long have we been waiting for the Times-Union Center park to begin construction? Or Friendship Park to finally begin major construction (doesn't look like much is going on there lately)?

I don't understand how anyone thinks that Lori Boyer and the DIA are qualified to unaliterally make major decisions that are going to shape our downtown for decades to come, nor do I understand how anyone who has closely watched downtown progress on the riverfront over the last decade can have any faith that Lori Boyer and the DIA have the ability to execute ANY of these plans to completion anytime within the next decade.

Atkins' plan leaves a LOT of questions to be answered, and the jury is still way out there in terms of financing and how realistic/market appropriate it actually is, but the updated proposal is more thorough, intelligent, thought-out, strategic, and developed than anything I've seen from the DIA over the last ten years. It's embarrassing what he's been able to pull together in two years - including letters of support from brands like Hard Rock and Marriott, buy-in from the Hyatt, and potential capital partners -  versus what the DIA has managed to pull together in ten.

I don't know if it's the right plan for downtown Jacksonville, but it's better than what we've got. And it would be fucking INSANE for the DIA to let their own egos, arrogance, insecurities, and utterly baseless confidence about their own abilities to move the riverfront forward stand in the way of at least allowing Atkins' plan to be fully vetted by the city and the public.

What's there to lose?

Here's one of the few people who has actually made a dent in redeveloping downtown Jacksonville in the last decade. He's restoring historic building stock. He's reeled in some great retail and hotel partners. He submitted a proposal for the JEA headquarters intended to save the iconic tower. And he's dumped two years of his life and over a million dollars into putting together a plan that he thinks will move Jacksonville forward.

And the DIA can't even be bothered to delay the Ford on Bay RFP that they've flubbed and then sat on for YEARS by a month to listen to what Southeast has to say?

It's just embarrassing.

Hear the guy out.

If it turns out to be smoke and mirrors, so be it, but at least vet the damn proposal instead of stubbornly moving forward with your next doomed stick apartments with 30% retail frontage on Bay Street.

Remember how excited everyone was when Lori Boyer took over the DIA? IMO she has done nothing, absolutely nothing. If they, Boyer and Company start mulling over Atkins proposals, then you know its a "tongue in cheek" and jealousy thing; feeling guilty and afraid that they will be exposed and called out for doing nothing...and Atkins is doing "something." I say bring Atkins in to head the DIA; and I agree, in the last 2 to 3 years its been him (Atkins) that's been injecting the "shot in the arm" to downtown Jax and the Urban Core. Lori needs to pack up and go home. Her and I are about the same age, so, maybe her best game days have passed her by. (LOL)

Not saying the proposal should not be vetted but also not ready to make it a Boyer vs Atkins thing. Atkins gets nothing done in Downtown without Boyer and the DIA. It's not the sexy thing people like to think about but just about all the adaptive reuse underway now in the Northbank (including the Trio) doesn't happen without the modification of the DT Jax Historic Preservation Trust Fund incentives program. Imo, that's been the biggest plus for Downtown redevelopment this century. Independent Life, Ambassador, Trio, Old Federal Reserve Bank, First Baptist Convention Building, etc. would all still be sitting empty with no real chance of adaptive reuse without it. Now not having a transparent master plan, a dead riverfront, failed RFPs, blowing up the Landing with no plan in place, poorly laid out suburban infill projects, etc. yeah there's been some real struggles there from the DIA, DDRB and COJ. Somehow, I get the impression that the work on the other, competing studies and proposals on the riverfront won't stop though. I guess we'll find out soon since Atkins has given them a deadline to consider the proposal.

I wouldn't say its Atkins or anyone else against the DIA. I just think people on this forum believe the the DIA has not been very successful and they are not taking a holistic approach to DT development.  There is nothing stopping new development to occur simultaneously with adaptive reuse. I know DIA is all about the numbers, but it also takes vision for success.

The park issue really burns me. We want something iconic, choose it and the start moving backwards again. Something tells me that higher ups, not the "people" slowed this.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 23, 2021, 07:11:59 AMIt's not the sexy thing people like to think about but just about all the adaptive reuse underway now in the Northbank (including the Trio) doesn't happen without the modification of the DT Jax Historic Preservation Trust Fund incentives program. Imo, that's been the biggest plus for Downtown redevelopment this century. Independent Life, Ambassador, Trio, Old Federal Reserve Bank, First Baptist Convention Building, etc. would all still be sitting empty with no real chance of adaptive reuse without it.

To me, this is what the DIA's role should be, and to your point, what they're actually quite good and effective at. Vetting private investment and doing the blocking and tackling through code modification and incentive programs necessary to stimulate private investment. They've done great things with the Historic Preservation Trust Fund. The negotiated a great deal for the city on the Four Seasons project. The Targeted Food and Beverage/retail corridor program is a great idea in theory, though we've been hearing about it since October 2019 and (to my point about the glacial pace at which the DIA operates and the general lack of urgency during limited windows of economic prosperity) still haven't seen a restaurant on the DIA's target list open a new branch downtown as a result.

It's the overall master planning and riverfront development that I personally think the DIA is grossly unqualified to oversee. When you have to publish an editorial piece after years of impotence saying, "Yes, there is a plan for Downtown Jacksonville," and to the best of my knowledge, the most we've ever seen of this plan is one or two PowerPoint slides and a bunch of failed, piecemealed RFPs, that's a problem.

I think Lori Boyer is great at what she's good at - rolling up her sleeves, poring over fine details of zoning regulations, and funding mechanisms, and development agreements - but I look at her track record of actually planning and executing major projects (going back to City Council with things like the riverfront nodes), and it just isn't there.

Aside from vetting private development proposed by other entities, like the Four Seasons project and the new FIS HQ, what projects have come out of the ground in the last five years that have been planned from the ground up by the DIA? I might be totally forgetting something, but all I've seen and heard from a new development perspective coming out of the DIA is a bunch of talk, a bunch of empty grass lots, a bunch of failed RPFs, and a bunch of burned developers. 

If we were stagnating elsewhere in the region or in the midst of an economic recession, I'd have more patience, but Jacksonville has too much momentum coming out of this pandemic to squander another decade going through this same cycle of:

1) Holding meetings about meetings
2) Tabling discussions until next month
3) Kicking master planning down the road
4) Talking in circles about RFPs
5) Finally issuing RPFs
6) Changing our minds and starting over

Talk is great, but we need more action, and more importantly, we need more urgency.

Of which the DIA has none.

Would MUCH rather see the DIA stick with what they're good at and have the city hand off master-planning and riverfront development to someone with a proven track record of revitalizing a major urban area and attracting outside investment.

Nothing personal against Boyer, but she doesn't have that experience, and we need someone yesterday who does.

We had some great candidates too...

QuoteThe park issue really burns me. We want something iconic, choose it and the start moving backwards again. Something tells me that higher ups, not the "people" slowed this.

No other project quite sums up my frustration with the DIA like the Landing park.

1) Prepare an RFP heavily weighted toward iconic public art
2) Select a winner, in their own words, off the strength of the central art piece
3) When the public complains about the art piece, immediately backtrack and say that the art might not even be included at all, turning the entire scoring system into a farce.

It's baffling, and just so incredibly lame for a city that otherwise has so much going for it.

Quote from: Ken_FSU on October 23, 2021, 10:56:13 AM
We had some great candidates too...

Jim Edwards would have been the perfect choice years ago. He had strong track record of working in downtown environments that were at the stage where DT Jax is today. We've struggled to accomplish getting the basics right and that's what he excelled at in Lakeland, Hollywood and Charleston, WV. Anyway, that ship has long sailed.

As for the Landing situation.........I knew this would be the outcome. We had 50 years of revitalization strategy history to tell us this. It was a major reason we pushed for not evicting successful businesses and blowing up a structurally fine public asset. Totally unfortunate but completely avoidable.

What about My Official "Downtown Waterway  Based Jacksonville's Gracious Front Porch- After All I Altered the First Coast Expressway Alignment et al so Everyone Should Focus, pontificate and extrapolate because of Me!!!!" Plan?

Not 100% optimistic about many of these proposals here. However, if this were to happen I would like a nice art piece in the old Landing area. I'd also prefer if they left an opening to the building in front of the VyStar breezeway.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/cbre-releases-marketing-info-timeline-for-the-ford-on-bay

Great that we sit on this thing for ages, and then make the timing as wildly inconvenient as possible for interested developers.

Disposition the week before Thanksgiving.

Pre-proposal conference the Monday that everyone gets back from Thanksgiving.

Bids due Monday of Christmas week.

Short list selected between Christmas and New Year's.

Oral presentations for short listed firms the Monday when everyone's getting back from Christmas/New Year's break, meaning they'd have to build their presentations during the one week of the year that half the country is out of office?

You've gotta think the timing alone could dissuade some interested parties in participating, right?

(https://snipboard.io/nIt03y.jpg)

Wtf.  They have to be doing that to give some insider bidder an advantage right?  I mean otherwise that's just idiotic.

Interesting!

Quote from: acme54321 on October 26, 2021, 11:02:45 PM
Wtf.  They have to be doing that to give some insider bidder an advantage right?  I mean otherwise that's just idiotic.

Atkins?

^ I seriously doubt it.

I can attest that the RFP is garnering attention/interest.

Hate to be the guy constantly bashing the DIA, but yet another head scratcher on the Brooklyn Home2 Suites incentives deal from tonight.

QuoteDIA board moves toward Brooklyn Home2 Suites incentives

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-board-moves-toward-brooklyn-home2-suites-incentives

The Downtown Investment Authority board wants an incentives package for the proposed $17.31 million Home2 Suites by Hilton hotel in Brooklyn, despite DIA's staff position that the project is financially viable without city help.

The DIA board declined a request Nov. 17 by Kelco Management and Development Inc. and Corner Lot Development Group for a property tax refund on their proposed six-story, 100-room hotel and restaurant at 600 Park St.

The companies are developing the hotel under Kelco Brooklyn LLC.

DIA CEO Lori Boyer and Director of Downtown Real Estate Development Steve Kelley recommended the board deny the Recapture Enhanced Value grant, a refund on property taxes, because they said the project did not qualify.

The board voted 5-1 to direct DIA staff to return with a deal that would give the developer financial assistance to equal a REV grant.

After the meeting, Boyer said that would be a $2,385,219 cash grant.

She said the incentive likely would be paid to the developer over several years after the hotel is completed.

The staff report, prepared by Kelley, says the developer did not provide proof of a financial gap requiring an incentive. The report said the Home2 Suites would negatively impact existing the occupancy rates of existing Downtown hotels.

What?

Shoot down incentives on the back-end out of principal but then give the developer an equal cash handout instead??

I'm kind of confused to why staff appears to have been against this project from the start. It's telling that this project is actually looking better than many promoted by staff in Brooklyn, despite the objections.

^ from what I can tell, the development does not qualify for a REV grant as the financial numbers don't show a loss....so board members are asking that staff find a way to offer the equivalent of a REV grant in some other incentives.

Is Brooklyn not at the point where it has enough momentum to not require further incentives?  How long must taxpayers subsidize developers before we reach an end point.  The staff says this project doesn't need support to be viable, so why the push for incentives?  When does this treadmill come to a stop.

There are lots of businesses in town spending millions to better themselves and they never ask the City for a penny.  Why are developers treated better?  Donations to the right political campaigns have much to do with this?

The only incentives I can favor are to maybe improve some infrastructure that also benefits the larger community and for historic preservation that is difficult and expensive to accomplish but is important to our community's character and preserving its legacy thus benefitting a wider audience than just the recipient.

Incentives should close the gap between a developer's utility function and the community's utility function, economically. Developers' utility functions are defined by the realities of the business world, whereas the community may have positive economic utility on a project that loses financially (public transit is an age-old example). So the question in my mind is...why should COJ value this project so highly? If it stands on its own financially, what risk is there to withholding incentives? Do they fear a developer walking away from a positive ROI deal?

We thinking its curtains for this already?

Master plans involving properties you don't own or control are hard to pull off and rarely come to fruition as initially envisioned. In a downtown area, public engagement, buy-in and support are very important as well. From what I've heard from many on the street, I get the impression people really want to see the Trio get underway moreso than anything else. With that said, DT Jax is full of surface parking lots and underused buildings. Even with rapid growth, this will be the case for years to come. So many of the things identified in this plan will still have an opportunity to one day come to life in some shape or form.