As noted on many threads here, design innovation and risk taking are almost non-existent in Jacksonville.
Imagine someone doing something remotely close to the below in our city. This "green" double helix office building will be an instant landmark and global tourist attraction for Arlington, VA. I bet more tourists will come to see, experience and photograph this single structure than visit all of downtown Jacksonville.
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/amazon-hq2-design-helix/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/style/article/amazon-hq2-design-helix/index.html)
(https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/q_auto,w_727,c_fit/http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F210202025041-embargoed-02-amazon-hq2-design-helix.jpg)
This Amazon project will also include 2.5 acres of green space:
(https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/q_auto,w_727,c_fit/http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F210202025544-embargoed-05-amazon-hq2-design-helix.jpg)
Cool? Yes.
Global tourist attraction that will draw more tourists than Jacksonville? Very highly doubted.
Man, that inferiority complex runs deep with some of y'all.
What's the point of this thread? To whine about how some random project in a random city makes the whole of Jacksonville, FL obsolete?
More importantly, this is Amazon. One of the largest, wealthiest corporations in human history. FIS is no Amazon, but they are putting a nice skyscraper into a growing urban neighborhood. Is there plenty more to do? Sure, but I don't see how highlighting a project down the street from the Capitol by one of the biggest companies in the world is supposed to inspire improving Jacksonville.
The tourists will swing by to snap photos as they leave the myriad of other places that draw tourism to Northern VA...
1 Arlington National Cemetery
2 The Pentagon
Not to mention that Reagan National Airport is in Arlington.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 02, 2021, 03:16:26 PM
Cool? Yes.
Global tourist attraction that will draw more tourists than Jacksonville? Very highly doubted.
Man, that inferiority complex runs deep with some of y'all.
What's the point of this thread? To whine about how some random project in a random city makes the whole of Jacksonville, FL obsolete?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on February 02, 2021, 03:49:16 PM
More importantly, this is Amazon. One of the largest, wealthiest corporations in human history. FIS is no Amazon, but they are putting a nice skyscraper into a growing urban neighborhood. Is there plenty more to do? Sure, but I don't see how highlighting a project down the street from the Capitol by one of the biggest companies in the world is supposed to inspire improving Jacksonville.
Wow, sorry for stretching our thinking here.
Of course, we don't have Amazon. But, you don't have to do big and expensive to do iconic.
This building is in a suburb of Washington, not down the street from the Capitol. Most people are not going to see this building if they don't make a special trip across the Potomac.
And I am not promoting an inferiority complex but a constructive push to elevate Jacksonville to a higher level. We are not going to get there if we are complacent and accepting of mediocrity. The great thing about these examples is it allows others to demonstrate the value of of these structures and, hopefully, we can copy and paste these ideas here adjusting for Jacksonville's scale. Of course, we can continue to live in a time warp and be passed by, doing the same boring, incestuous and unimaginative things we have always done. So far, that approach has won out and we see this as other comparable cities continue to leave us behind.
To add, tell me what will draw large numbers of out-of-town tourists currently to downtown? Florida-Georgia and a sprinkling for about 7 Jag's home games and a few more for MOCA and a few minor conventions. Maybe a concert once in a while. So maybe that adds up to, generously, 500,000 to 750,000 total out-of-towners visiting downtown in a good year?
For a comparison, the Empire State Building claims 4 million visitors a year and those are paying customers. That doesn't count the visitors gawking from the street that never pay to go in. The National Park Service estimates 2 million for the St. Louis Arch which is a bit more off the beaten path. The distinctive Apple Cube store on 5th Avenue in NYC has averaged 4 million visitors a year over its first 13 years, more than even the Statue of Liberty. The Frank Gehry designed Guggenheim Museum in NYC claims 1.7 million visitors. How many more go out of their way just to walk by the Flat Iron Building, Rockefeller Center, Carnegie Hall, St. Patrick's Cathedral, the London Eye, etc.? How does architecture play a role in Charleston, Savannah, St. Augustine and so many other distinctive building districts? Yeah, we can make excuses that these places aren't Jacksonville. I get that but maybe we should be asking why we can't take lessons from their successes and be less like what we are now. An iconic building could be a catalyst for moving the City forward.
Even theme parks use a distinctive building to quickly identify with as they know the value of same. Cinderella's Castle, the Epcot Globe, the Universal Globe...
The bottom line is iconic buildings and structures do draw in tourists and we do not have our share. We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 02, 2021, 08:07:16 PM
We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.
I think the Berkman II perfectly represents the Jax aesthetic. Yet, it seems that's going to be coming down soon, too. We're really doomed!
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 02, 2021, 08:07:16 PM
We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.
The Main Street Bridge? The Wells Fargo Building? We have a very iconic downtown skyline. I'm really not sure what you're on about. And besides, this "iconic building downtown" is exactly the sort of pie-in-the-sky "game changer" project-type that we've seen come and go several times, and ultimately does nothing to aid in redevelopment or emboldening downtown.
Also, we DO have Amazon in Jax. We have several distribution centers. Just because we don't have a building that looks like the Black marker from Dead Space doesn't mean anything
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 03, 2021, 08:29:10 AM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 02, 2021, 08:07:16 PM
We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.
The Main Street Bridge? The Wells Fargo Building? We have a very iconic downtown skyline.
It's very interesting that all three of these things were here before 1990. Not much has changed with Downtown because the insurance and banking companies that were largely responsible for this were all gobbled up in the late 80s and early 90s. Now cities like Houston and Charlotte have that iconic skyline while cities like Jax, Memphis, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc. scramble to back fill empty office space.
QuoteAlso, we DO have Amazon in Jax. We have several distribution centers.
I'd wish we'd stop giving money to Amazon. Seriously, who doesn't have multiple Amazon distribution centers these days? It's their business model. How else are they going to get the crap we order to us literally overnight? So for every job they create, how many at the local malls and strip malls are being lost?
Quote from: thelakelander on February 03, 2021, 08:48:44 AM
I'd wish we'd stop giving money to Amazon. Seriously, who doesn't have multiple Amazon distribution centers these days? It's their business model. How else are they going to get the crap we order to us literally overnight? So for every job they create, how many at the local malls and strip malls are being lost?
Yea I'd have to agree here. The only difference is the DCs might be built across the county line, but they're going to open up their buildings regardless
If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there. We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it. Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.
It sounds to me like you're getting dangerously close to proposing an observation tower, Ark, ferris wheel, or aquarium shaped like a manta ray/diaper and that's not what downtown needs.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2021, 09:32:52 AM
If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there. We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it. Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.
It sounds to me like you're getting dangerously close to proposing an observation tower, Ark, ferris wheel, or aquarium shaped like a manta ray/diaper and that's not what downtown needs.
I am not advocating for any particular project but I am suggesting that when a project comes along we make an effort to incorporate innovative design in it. To be honest, while the FIS building is a nice addition to our skyline, the company is large enough to have the resources to do something more iconic. Clearly, their building doesn't rise to what Amazon is doing in Va. and I am not looking for that. On the other hand, maybe they still could have done more to make it more distinctive and memorable. To get that, I think the City needs to create an environment to encourage that type of approach. Showing what others are doing elsewhere is to offer inspiration for such thinking. Once someone sets the example here, hopefully it raises the bar for others.
We all know that Daily's Place was supposed to be more iconic and turned out far from it. The City should have held it to the original concept as part of its participation in the project. MOSH's new building will be interesting to watch. All the apartment/condo structures in the core are pretty blah to me and don't even come close to a minimum level of interest.
By the way, I recall being in the San Francisco area years ago when they announced the design for the eastern replacement of the earthquake damaged Oakland Bay Bridge. Caltrans announced a design and it was roundly criticized as not being iconic enough. The outcry was substantial enough that they came back with an entirely new design. It's this type of thinking that I believe is inherent to a progressive community.
The good news for Jacksonville is that as we continue to grow we will have many opportunities to incorporate designs that excite. We just need to make sure we take advantage of them.
A small example: Vancouver's cruise ship terminal. Functional, interesting and memorable.
(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/KM9FR8/the-cruise-ship-terminal-canada-place-and-port-of-vancouver-british-KM9FR8.jpg)
Florida Southern College Frank Lloyd Wright buildings:
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/floridatrend/15957/florida-southern-college.jpg)
(https://www.visitflorida.com/content/dam/visitflorida/en-us/images/articles/2009/march/1236892107_20_frank_lloyd_wright.jpg.1280.700.rendition)
Both the JEA and FIS buildings are a good level above Jacksonville beige. The only real change I wish were possible is their garages being a part of the buildings as opposed to siting beside them. I say that from a selfish perspective of really wanting to see the skyline change from what it's been the last 30 years.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/293284_standard.jpeg)
FIS should tower over everything except the BCBS building in Brooklyn. The floor heights of the bottom 3 floors are massive. It's nearly as tall as the St Joe Building already and they are on floor 4. That said, you'd need a panoramic shot to get it into any skyline photos.
I've heard from multiple sources that Haskell is growing and about to burst at the seams. Maybe they will be looking for new corporate space downtown and can do something interesting, tall, or both. I've also been looking into the piece of land between Haskell and the YMCA and it looks to maybe be associated with the Scott McRae Auto Group (Duval Ford) or the late Dan Hicks (founder of Computer Power), but I'm not sure.
QuoteI've heard from multiple sources that Haskell is growing and about to burst at the seams. Maybe they will be looking for new corporate space downtown and can do something interesting, tall, or both.
Haskell's master campus plan has always relied on the ability to add on to its existing building, utilizing the large grass area fronting Riverside Ave to add height to the main building in a stepped-up fashion. You can see how that would work by simply looking at the St Johns River frontage that progressively steps back from the riverfront.
Plans can always change, but that's how the building was designed, and is the reason why the company never sold the large amount of land between the existing building footprint and Riverside Ave.
I think the pedestrian experience has much more to do with making Downtown an attractive place to open a business, or setup office space within... than the facade of a building.
Downtown is really good at being a vertical suburb that looks nice on a postcard. On the street level, where life actually happens, its a much less attractive experience. The amount of glass treatment on floors 12 through 25 has little to do with that street level environment.
That said, complaining that the new Fidelity building isn't iconic enough, is about as close to this as possible:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fc26f73ca-fad7-4ca3-91fe-82c70be5c47d_480x360.jpeg)
Wouldn't it work for Haskell to purchase the TU and build there? I mean, it's next door and there is a ton of room for new construction on that parcel.
Quote from: MusicMan on February 03, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
Wouldn't it work for Haskell to purchase the TU and build there? I mean, it's next door and there is a ton of room for new construction on that parcel.
It would be better to utilize the land between Haskell and YMCA in front of YMCA. Additional revenue for YMCA while leaving TU for larger development.
Quote from: MusicMan on February 03, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
Wouldn't it work for Haskell to purchase the TU and build there? I mean, it's next door and there is a ton of room for new construction on that parcel.
There is a ton of room on Haskell's current site for new construction.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 03, 2021, 02:05:42 PM
I think the pedestrian experience has much more to do with making Downtown an attractive place to open a business, or setup office space within... than the facade of a building.
Downtown is really good at being a vertical suburb that looks nice on a postcard. On the street level, where life actually happens, its a much less attractive experience. The amount of glass treatment on floors 12 through 25 has little to do with that street level environment.
That said, complaining that the new Fidelity building isn't iconic enough, is about as close to this as possible:
You are missing my point. Having iconic structures isn't mutually exclusive to other traffic generators such as you mention above. I agree all those features are at least as important. My position is iconic architecture is additive to those elements and, as such, it should be considered as a force multiplier.
Don't get me wrong. I noted the FIS building is a nice addition to our skyline and clearly a cut above for Jacksonville. I am just saying we could raise the bar even higher.
Interestingly, below is another cruise terminal, NCL's in Miami, that it appears Haskell here had a hand in (it's featured in an article about them). This demonstrates how much further iconic design can rise to vs. what we have here now.
(https://s33722.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/ncl-terminal-miami.jpg.optimal.jpg)
(https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/k9xcvc/picture236881083/alternates/FREE_1140/114PortMiami24NEWPPP)
Quote from: icarus on February 03, 2021, 03:05:28 PM
Quote from: MusicMan on February 03, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
Wouldn't it work for Haskell to purchase the TU and build there? I mean, it's next door and there is a ton of room for new construction on that parcel.
It would be better to utilize the land between Haskell and YMCA in front of YMCA. Additional revenue for YMCA while leaving TU for larger development.
I can't find a rendering on the internet, but when Haskell first built its current building I recall they had a rendering of their master site plan that included two additional multistory wings, one each off either end of the riverfront structure, each extending toward Riverside Avenue and wrapping around the interior of the property. With COVID work-at-home and their national and international reach (and, thus, satellite offices), they may not have much need for more space at their headquarters.
Interestingly, per the tax records, Haskell appears to have sold their building and all the frontage land (in two additional deeds) to investors, primarily a Washington (even though the LLC name has Oregon in it) state investment company in 2008 (due to the recession??). So how the rest of the property gets developed may now be out of Haskell's total control unless they have a side agreement.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on February 03, 2021, 06:33:33 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on February 03, 2021, 02:05:42 PM
I think the pedestrian experience has much more to do with making Downtown an attractive place to open a business, or setup office space within... than the facade of a building.
Downtown is really good at being a vertical suburb that looks nice on a postcard. On the street level, where life actually happens, its a much less attractive experience. The amount of glass treatment on floors 12 through 25 has little to do with that street level environment.
That said, complaining that the new Fidelity building isn't iconic enough, is about as close to this as possible:
You are missing my point. Having iconic structures isn't mutually exclusive to other traffic generators such as you mention above. I agree all those features are at least as important. My position is iconic architecture is additive to those elements and, as such, it should be considered as a force multiplier.
Don't get me wrong. I noted the FIS building is a nice addition to our skyline and clearly a cut above for Jacksonville. I am just saying we could raise the bar even higher.
Interestingly, below is another cruise terminal, NCL's in Miami, that it appears Haskell here had a hand in (it's featured in an article about them). This demonstrates how much further iconic design can rise to vs. what we have here now.
It was designed by an international architecture firm based in Miami. Haskell was on the construction management side. If there was a local entity that wanted to throw a ton of money at an iconic project, I'm sure Haskell would gladly help, but they can't create a market for iconic architecture without the demand or financing.
I agree that Jacksonville has issues with architecture (both landscape and building), but you are comparing projects in world class cities (Miami and Vancouver) or world class companies (Amazon) with Jax. They can build amazing things because they have the demand and market that comes with being a world class city that everyone wants to live or play in. Take a look at these high rises in the works in Miami for instance https://www.thenextmiami.com/these-are-the-21-new-miami-towers-that-will-be-under-construction-in-2021/
Sure, having iconic architecture would be nice, but DT Jax has a lot of things to take care of first before it gets to that stage.
I still don't understand the underlying point though...is Jax supposed to snap it's finger and attract a multi-billion dollar corporate relocation with world class architecture or is the City supposed to force Vystar, FIS, or whatever local player is investing Downtown (already with incentives) to build something above and beyond what they can afford?
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2021, 09:32:52 AM
If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there. We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it. Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.
This.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 03, 2021, 02:05:42 PM
I think the pedestrian experience has much more to do with making Downtown an attractive place to open a business, or setup office space within... than the facade of a building.
Downtown is really good at being a vertical suburb that looks nice on a postcard. On the street level, where life actually happens, its a much less attractive experience. The amount of glass treatment on floors 12 through 25 has little to do with that street level environment.
That said, complaining that the new Fidelity building isn't iconic enough, is about as close to this as possible:
(https://cdn.substack.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fc26f73ca-fad7-4ca3-91fe-82c70be5c47d_480x360.jpeg)
I agree Mike. Too many seem to have a "build it and they will come" outlook. I'd rather downtown be full of low-rise, "boring" buildings that are actually being used. As you said, when you're walking around on the sidewalk, the height of the buildings isn't really evident anyway. Having stuff to do at street level is what counts.
Quote from: Adam White on February 04, 2021, 03:08:24 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2021, 09:32:52 AM
If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there. We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it. Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.
This.
For Downtown, I'd even start smaller by focusing on catering to the urban core population and workforce first. Handle the basics for the existing population and that buzz will naturally attract those that live and work further away.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 04, 2021, 07:04:06 AM
Quote from: Adam White on February 04, 2021, 03:08:24 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2021, 09:32:52 AM
If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there. We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it. Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.
This.
For Downtown, I'd even start smaller by focusing on catering to the urban core population and workforce first. Handle the basics for the existing population and that buzz will naturally attract those that live and work further away.
That sounds very reasonable and not impossible at all.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2021, 09:32:52 AM
If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead,
Your valuation of dinner at Chili's is wildly different than 87% of the other people out there. Ain't gonna happen.
^ That's why I say, screw them. They moved there for a reason. For downtown's sake, worry about accommodating the people who live, work and play there already or nearby. Don't spend time trying to appeal to people who don't want to spend considerable time there. Let them enjoy the suburbs they prefer.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
^ That's why I say, screw them.
Geeze, man, no need to talk down on people who like the suburbs. Not everybody is an urbanite on here, you know.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on February 07, 2021, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
^ That's why I say, screw them.
Geeze, man, no need to talk down on people who like the suburbs. Not everybody is an urbanite on here, you know.
It's the politics of the day... not on your side? Screw em.... don't think like your group?.. screw em. Don't live in your neighborhood? Screw em. We no longer bother to convince or cajole or bargain or compromise... we just screw em. It's why things are the way they are..
You took that the wrong way. Perhaps my words were too harsh and short to the point. Nevertheless, my point has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with sound revitalization strategy. If you want a neighborhood to succeed, you prioritize making it work for the population that uses it first, before spending money on schemes to lure people who could largely care less about it. Serve your current population adequately first and the rest will come naturally because they'll be attracted to be vibrancy and special sense of place that doesn't exist in other areas. Thus screw worrying about attracting suburbanites right now. We've spent billions and have nothing but complete failure to show from investing in that strategy sense the 1950s.
The folks developing and moving to the Southside and St. Johns don't spend a lot of time worrying about whether they'll attract enough folks from Murray Hill or Northwest Jax. Why do we assume that Downtown will only work if it attracts enough suburbanites? It's a matter of to each their own.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 07, 2021, 05:23:42 PM
The folks developing and moving to the Southside and St. Johns don't spend a lot of time worrying about whether they'll attract enough folks from Murray Hill or Northwest Jax. Why do we assume that Downtown will only work if it attracts enough suburbanites? It's a matter of to each their own.
Perhaps, but while downtown is its own thing, generally the city center is an area that is the focal point of a city and is used/enjoyed by the residents of the city. As it is central, it can be accessed by people from everywhere. I don't think its unreasonable to try to get people from all over Jax to patronise the businesses downtown. In fact, we already do that - I doubt many of the bars and restaurants downtown today are solely surviving on the custom of people living downtown.
People go downtown to visit things like museums, see football and baseball games, attend concerts, etc. Right now, those people aren't probably enough to sustain restaurants downtown - but presumably if enough stuff was always happening downtown, more complementary businesses would be able to survive.
Ideally, a lot more people would live and work downtown. How do we get there? That's an honest question.
^How do we get there? That's a good question and easy one to answer from my perspective, based off a country full of good and bad examples.
You have to start somewhere. Downtown already has museums, stadiums, places for concerts, a convention center, regional transportation center, etc. that are regional oriented facilities. Plus, none of these things aren't going any where. Excluding COVID-19, they do attract people regionally.
What it lacks are the basic things needed to support a growing residential base and workforce. Instead of worrying about retail to attract someone to visit once or twice a month from Julington Creek, focus should be placed on having more places for people already in downtown to have access to a pharmacy, nice parks, fresh foods, efficient mass transit, upgraded public schools, etc. How we get there is very easy. We're so far behind in the downtown revitalization game, just about any city of similar size or a round smaller in this country has already figured it out. Copy the process. Light the streets, clean up the parks, start locating complimentary uses together within a pedestrian scale setting. When you luck up with a VyStar moving its corporate headquarters to downtown, aggressively work to make the adjacent buildings and blocks complementary to that private investment.
While you certainly don't have to prioritize them, when opportunities to upgrade facilities like MOSH or the convention center, you take advantage of them and situate them in spots that build upon the greater picture. A good example would be the struggling Prime Osborn Convention Center. A mile east, we have a growing entertainment district, a struggling 1,000 room convention center hotel and a big patch of dirt (lawn) separating them. We also have some silly report, claiming not to invest in a new convention center until there are things people visiting can go to. Well, it could take decades for that type of environment to come to fruition in LaVilla or next to TIAA Bank Field. However, you could easily create that environment by making the Hyatt your convention center. That very use becomes the glue that fills the gap between other complimentary uses like the riverwalk, Florida Theater, Elbow District, a potential MOSH relocation, etc. Heck, if it were mixed-use itself, it also becomes something that further gives people attending conventions and trade shows something to do within walking distance.
Do these types of basic things, then the environment that the existing population has long sought, begins to materialize. Get an area full of things to do within a five or six block stretch of connected uses and it will naturally start to draw suburbanites a couple of times a month, the same way that Five Points, Shoppes of Avondale and San Marco Square do now. However, if you don't get the basics right for the population already there, there's nothing you can really do to truly attract the population that has already chosen with their lifestyle and pocketbooks to move further away.
^Here's an example of something basic. It's an office building that's been on Orange Avenue in Orlando forever. In fact, it's very similar to the BB&T Building in DT Jax:
BEFORE:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Orlando/Downtown-Orlando---January-2021/i-g7Mwr2v/0/3c67c8d6/X2/Orlando-X2.jpg)
AFTER:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Orlando/Downtown-Orlando---January-2021/i-WwDRgJ2/0/0136de1c/X2/20210202_092208-X2.jpg)
The first floor lobby level was flipped to allow the retail to have visibility and interaction with the street. While you don't see a lot of people in the image (I took it last week while down for work, while taking a pre-workday morning walk in the mid 30s), It's significant subtle change that cost around $3 million to revamp the office tower's lobby and first floor. Just imagine what the core of the Northbank could quickly look like if we took that low key, short term pedestrian scale improvement approach with TIAA Bank, BOA, Wells Fargo and the Enterprise Center. Basically the same thing that VyStar is doing with the Life of the South building right now:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU011721/i-DWWXhdp/0/91f3ac19/X2/20210117_110245-X2.jpg)
Life of the South Building renovations
It's not sexy but continuing to do these little things, makes a hell of a difference in creating the dense types of environments that appeal to downtown residents and office workers, which in turn helps put more people and vibrancy on the street, attracting suburbanites. The little things, when added up, are the things that separate the haves and the have nots.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 08, 2021, 07:22:41 AM
^How do we get there? That's a good question and easy one to answer from my perspective, based off a country full of good and bad examples.
You have to start somewhere. Downtown already has museums, stadiums, places for concerts, a convention center, regional transportation center, etc. that are regional oriented facilities. Plus, none of these things aren't going any where. Excluding COVID-19, they do attract people regionally.
What it lacks are the basic things needed to support a growing residential base and workforce. Instead of worrying about retail to attract someone to visit once or twice a month from Julington Creek, focus should be placed on having more places for people already in downtown to have access to a pharmacy, nice parks, fresh foods, efficient mass transit, upgraded public schools, etc. How we get there is very easy. We're so far behind in the downtown revitalization game, just about any city of similar size or a round smaller in this country has already figured it out. Copy the process. Light the streets, clean up the parks, start locating complimentary uses together within a pedestrian scale setting. When you luck up with a VyStar moving its corporate headquarters to downtown, aggressively work to make the adjacent buildings and blocks complementary to that private investment.
While you certainly don't have to prioritize them, when opportunities to upgrade facilities like MOSH or the convention center, you take advantage of them and situate them in spots that build upon the greater picture. A good example would be the struggling Prime Osborn Convention Center. A mile east, we have a growing entertainment district, a struggling 1,000 room convention center hotel and a big patch of dirt (lawn) separating them. We also have some silly report, claiming not to invest in a new convention center until there are things people visiting can go to. Well, it could take decades for that type of environment to come to fruition in LaVilla or next to TIAA Bank Field. However, you could easily create that environment by making the Hyatt your convention center. That very use becomes the glue that fills the gap between other complimentary uses like the riverwalk, Florida Theater, Elbow District, a potential MOSH relocation, etc. Heck, if it were mixed-use itself, it also becomes something that further gives people attending conventions and trade shows something to do within walking distance.
Do these types of basic things, then the environment that the existing population has long sought, begins to materialize. Get an area full of things to do within a five or six block stretch of connected uses and it will naturally start to draw suburbanites a couple of times a month, the same way that Five Points, Shoppes of Avondale and San Marco Square do now. However, if you don't get the basics right for the population already there, there's nothing you can really do to truly attract the population that has already chosen with their lifestyle and pocketbooks to move further away.
Thanks Lake.
I used to work downtown (in the Ed Ball bldg) back in 2002. At the time, there weren't very many businesses open downtown - aside from the dying Landing food court, there were a handful of places to get lunch and I think a small convenience store that had very limited hours. It always seemed like a chicken-and-egg thing: there would be more businesses if there were people downtown to support them, but people won't move downtown without the businesses there to shop at.
I always thought it would be great if there were lots of cheap rentals and warehouse spaces downtown. Then you'd get your artists, musicians and young people who would be willing to live there without a lot of the convenciences that many of us need or expect. And over time, businesses would open to serve them. And eventually it would become like Riverside or something.
I don't know if it's true, but I seem to remember reading something in the T-U back in the early 90s that said the CoJ gov't actually gave financial incentives for companies to move from downtown to the southside. If that's true, then surely they could figure out some incentive to get companies to relocate downtown. Who knows.
Quote from: Adam White on February 08, 2021, 09:10:25 AM
Thanks Lake.
I used to work downtown (in the Ed Ball bldg) back in 2002. At the time, there weren't very many businesses open downtown - aside from the dying Landing food court, there were a handful of places to get lunch and I think a small convenience store that had very limited hours. It always seemed like a chicken-and-egg thing: there would be more businesses if there were people downtown to support them, but people won't move downtown without the businesses there to shop at.
Downtown probably has 5,000 more people living it it now, than it had in 2002, if including Brooklyn, LaVilla and the Southbank in those numbers. There's a lot more residential either already under construction or proposed to break ground this year. I do think that changes the dynamic a bit between what you experienced in 20 years ago and now, in terms of what to do next. In essence, there's something positive to continue to build off of now, by focusing on filling in the holes of vacancy by targeting certain sites and building for clustering of complementary uses. I also suspect, even in 2002, there were likely businesses in buildings you may have not known were even there because of a restrictive sign ordinance and lack of visibility from the street. So a low hanging fruit isn't actually recruitment of new businesses. It would be to better expose and activate what's already there. It's something we still continue to glaze over but if we really want dramatic change in the short term, it gives us the most bang for our buck.
QuoteI always thought it would be great if there were lots of cheap rentals and warehouse spaces downtown. Then you'd get your artists, musicians and young people who would be willing to live there without a lot of the convenciences that many of us need or expect. And over time, businesses would open to serve them. And eventually it would become like Riverside or something.
It can be tough to create things like an arts or entertainment district from the politicos in city hall. These things tend to evolve naturally in areas where cheap rents and available space are a part of the market. Years, ago they did try something like this. It failed. Without much public hands in the cookie jar, these types of uses have ended up at CoRK in Riverside, Phoenix Arts District in Springfield and now the Rail Yard District west of I-95. It also doesn't help that the buildings suitable for small arts studios, craft breweries, etc. have been systematically razed for the most part in former downtown warehouse districts. Of interesting note, a good chunk of the nightlife that is in downtown now, along East Bay, is located in buildings that were former warehouses that survived the wrecking ball.
QuoteI don't know if it's true, but I seem to remember reading something in the T-U back in the early 90s that said the CoJ gov't actually gave financial incentives for companies to move from downtown to the southside. If that's true, then surely they could figure out some incentive to get companies to relocate downtown. Who knows.
Yes, financial incentives have been provided in the past for development in the Southside and JTB corridor that have attracted companies formerly in downtown to relocate.