Design Driving Economic Development

[jaxlongtimer]

As noted on many threads here, design innovation and risk taking are almost non-existent in Jacksonville. 

Imagine someone doing something remotely close to the below in our city.  This "green" double helix office building will be an instant landmark and global tourist attraction for Arlington, VA.  I bet more tourists will come to see, experience and photograph this single structure than visit all of downtown Jacksonville.

https://www.cnn.com/style/article/amazon-hq2-design-helix/index.html



This Amazon project will also include 2.5 acres of green space:

[Peter Griffin]

Cool? Yes.

Global tourist attraction that will draw more tourists than Jacksonville? Very highly doubted.

Man, that inferiority complex runs deep with some of y'all.

What's the point of this thread? To whine about how some random project in a random city makes the whole of Jacksonville, FL obsolete?

[marcuscnelson]

More importantly, this is Amazon. One of the largest, wealthiest corporations in human history. FIS is no Amazon, but they are putting a nice skyscraper into a growing urban neighborhood. Is there plenty more to do? Sure, but I don't see how highlighting a project down the street from the Capitol by one of the biggest companies in the world is supposed to inspire improving Jacksonville.

[Chuckabear]

The tourists will swing by to snap photos as they leave the myriad of other places that draw tourism to Northern VA...

1 Arlington National Cemetery
2 The Pentagon 

Not to mention that Reagan National Airport is in Arlington.

[jaxlongtimer]

Cool? Yes.

Global tourist attraction that will draw more tourists than Jacksonville? Very highly doubted.

Man, that inferiority complex runs deep with some of y'all.

What's the point of this thread? To whine about how some random project in a random city makes the whole of Jacksonville, FL obsolete?

More importantly, this is Amazon. One of the largest, wealthiest corporations in human history. FIS is no Amazon, but they are putting a nice skyscraper into a growing urban neighborhood. Is there plenty more to do? Sure, but I don't see how highlighting a project down the street from the Capitol by one of the biggest companies in the world is supposed to inspire improving Jacksonville.

Wow, sorry for stretching our thinking here.

Of course, we don't have Amazon.  But, you don't have to do big and expensive to do iconic. 

This building is in a suburb of Washington, not down the street from the Capitol.  Most people are not going to see this building if they don't make a special trip across the Potomac.

And I am not promoting an inferiority complex but a constructive push to elevate Jacksonville to a higher level.  We are not going to get there if we are complacent and accepting of mediocrity.  The great thing about these examples is it allows others to demonstrate the value of of these structures and, hopefully, we can copy and paste these ideas here adjusting for Jacksonville's scale.  Of course, we can continue to live in a time warp and be passed by, doing the same boring, incestuous and unimaginative things we have always done.  So far, that approach has won out and we see this as other comparable cities continue to leave us behind.

To add, tell me what will draw large numbers of out-of-town tourists currently to downtown?  Florida-Georgia and a sprinkling for about 7 Jag's home games and a few more for MOCA and a few minor conventions.  Maybe a concert once in a while.  So maybe that adds up to, generously, 500,000 to 750,000 total out-of-towners visiting downtown in a good year?

For a comparison, the Empire State Building claims 4 million visitors a year and those are paying customers.  That doesn't count the visitors gawking from the street that never pay to go in.  The National Park Service estimates 2 million for the St. Louis Arch which is a bit more off the beaten path.  The distinctive Apple Cube store on 5th Avenue in NYC has averaged 4 million visitors a year over its first 13 years, more than even the Statue of Liberty.  The Frank Gehry designed Guggenheim Museum in NYC claims 1.7 million visitors.  How many more go out of their way just to walk by the Flat Iron Building, Rockefeller Center, Carnegie Hall, St. Patrick's Cathedral, the London Eye, etc.?  How does architecture play a role in Charleston, Savannah, St. Augustine and so many other distinctive building districts?  Yeah, we can make excuses that these places aren't Jacksonville.  I get that but maybe we should be asking why we can't take lessons from their successes and be less like what we are now.  An iconic building could be a catalyst for moving the City forward.

Even theme parks use a distinctive building to quickly identify with as they know the value of same.  Cinderella's Castle, the Epcot Globe, the Universal Globe...

The bottom line is iconic buildings and structures do draw in tourists and we do not have our share.  We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.

[fsu813]

We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.

I think the Berkman II perfectly represents the Jax aesthetic. Yet, it seems that's going to be coming down soon, too. We're really doomed!

[Peter Griffin]

We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.

The Main Street Bridge? The Wells Fargo Building? We have a very iconic downtown skyline. I'm really not sure what you're on about. And besides, this "iconic building downtown" is exactly the sort of pie-in-the-sky "game changer" project-type that we've seen come and go several times, and ultimately does nothing to aid in redevelopment or emboldening downtown.

Also, we DO have Amazon in Jax. We have several distribution centers. Just because we don't have a building that looks like the Black marker from Dead Space doesn't mean anything

[thelakelander]

We don't have a structure that when presented in a picture says Jacksonville instantly to the world at large.

The Main Street Bridge? The Wells Fargo Building? We have a very iconic downtown skyline.

It's very interesting that all three of these things were here before 1990. Not much has changed with Downtown because the insurance and banking companies that were largely responsible for this were all gobbled up in the late 80s and early 90s. Now cities like Houston and Charlotte have that iconic skyline while cities like Jax, Memphis, Birmingham, New Orleans, etc. scramble to back fill empty office space.

Also, we DO have Amazon in Jax. We have several distribution centers.

I'd wish we'd stop giving money to Amazon. Seriously, who doesn't have multiple Amazon distribution centers these days? It's their business model. How else are they going to get the crap we order to us literally overnight? So for every job they create, how many at the local malls and strip malls are being lost?

[Steve]

I'd wish we'd stop giving money to Amazon. Seriously, who doesn't have multiple Amazon distribution centers these days? It's their business model. How else are they going to get the crap we order to us literally overnight? So for every job they create, how many at the local malls and strip malls are being lost?

Yea I'd have to agree here. The only difference is the DCs might be built across the county line, but they're going to open up their buildings regardless

[Captain Zissou]

If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there.  We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it.  Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.

It sounds to me like you're getting dangerously close to proposing an observation tower, Ark, ferris wheel, or aquarium shaped like a manta ray/diaper and that's not what downtown needs.

[jaxlongtimer]

If we can get the St Johns County and mandarin people to skip dinner at Chili's once a month and come downtown instead, that's millions of visitors right there.  We don't need to pull in school trips from Oklahoma to make downtown lively, we just need our own citizens to embrace it.  Cultural uses on the shipyards site, dining and drinks on Bay and Laura, the new fancy Marriot for a staycation away from the kids, all of this would help.

It sounds to me like you're getting dangerously close to proposing an observation tower, Ark, ferris wheel, or aquarium shaped like a manta ray/diaper and that's not what downtown needs.

I am not advocating for any particular project but I am suggesting that when a project comes along we make an effort to incorporate innovative design in it.  To be honest, while the FIS building is a nice addition to our skyline, the company is large enough to have the resources to do something more iconic.  Clearly, their building doesn't rise to what Amazon is doing in Va. and I am not looking for that.  On the other hand, maybe they still could have done more to make it more distinctive and memorable.  To get that, I think the City needs to create an environment to encourage that type of approach.  Showing what others are doing elsewhere is to offer inspiration for such thinking.  Once someone sets the example here, hopefully it raises the bar for others.

We all know that Daily's Place was supposed to be more iconic and turned out far from it.  The City should have held it to the original concept as part of its participation in the project.  MOSH's new building will be interesting to watch.  All the apartment/condo structures in the core are pretty blah to me and don't even come close to a minimum level of interest.

By the way, I recall being in the San Francisco area years ago when they announced the design for the eastern replacement of the earthquake damaged Oakland Bay Bridge.  Caltrans announced a design and it was roundly criticized as not being iconic enough.  The outcry was substantial enough that they came back with an entirely new design.  It's this type of thinking that I believe is inherent to a progressive community.

The good news for Jacksonville is that as we continue to grow we will have many opportunities to incorporate designs that excite.  We just need to make sure we take advantage of them.

A small example:  Vancouver's cruise ship terminal.  Functional, interesting and memorable.



Florida Southern College Frank Lloyd Wright buildings:

[thelakelander]

Both the JEA and FIS buildings are a good level above Jacksonville beige. The only real change I wish were possible is their garages being a part of the buildings as opposed to siting beside them. I say that from a selfish perspective of really wanting to see the skyline change from what it's been the last 30 years.

[Captain Zissou]

FIS should tower over everything except the BCBS building in Brooklyn.  The floor heights of the bottom 3 floors are massive.  It's nearly as tall as the St Joe Building already and they are on floor 4.  That said, you'd need a panoramic shot to get it into any skyline photos.

I've heard from multiple sources that Haskell is growing and about to burst at the seams.  Maybe they will be looking for new corporate space downtown and can do something interesting, tall, or both.  I've also been looking into the piece of land between Haskell and the YMCA and it looks to maybe be associated with the Scott McRae Auto Group (Duval Ford) or the late Dan Hicks (founder of Computer Power), but I'm not sure. 

[fieldafm]

I've heard from multiple sources that Haskell is growing and about to burst at the seams.  Maybe they will be looking for new corporate space downtown and can do something interesting, tall, or both.

Haskell's master campus plan has always relied on the ability to add on to its existing building, utilizing the large grass area fronting Riverside Ave to add height to the main building in a stepped-up fashion. You can see how that would work by simply looking at the St Johns River frontage that progressively steps back from the riverfront.

Plans can always change, but that's how the building was designed, and is the reason why the company never sold the large amount of land between the existing building footprint and Riverside Ave.

[fieldafm]

I think the pedestrian experience has much more to do with making Downtown an attractive place to open a business, or setup office space within... than the facade of a building. 

Downtown is really good at being a vertical suburb that looks nice on a postcard. On the street level, where life actually happens, its a much less attractive experience.  The amount of glass treatment on floors 12 through 25 has little to do with that street level environment.

That said, complaining that the new Fidelity building isn't iconic enough, is about as close to this as possible: