(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-XgnkNdq/0/2e57343b/L/173426_standard-L.png)
Quote
After years of anticipation, Mayor Lenny Curry has announced that the City of Jacksonville, the Jacksonville Jaguars, Iguana Development as well as other nationally-renowned partners have reached a deal for the development of Lot J at TIAA Bank Field. If approved as proposed, $233.3 million in public subsidies will be provided for the $450 million project. For additional details, here is a copy of the Lot J term sheet.
Read more: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/are-you-okay-investing-233-million-for-lot-j/
This section is interesting, under "Development Scope and Investment
Quote
In the event ... the Developer desires to expand the area of the Project to achieve the density desirable for success, the City will provide the Developer with the development rights to the surface parking lot constructed in the place of storm water retention pond and/or other adjacent property at no additional cost to the Developer. If the Developer chooses to develop the newly-constructed surface parking lot and/or other adjacent property, the City will provide access to REV grants similar to those provided for the Project.
1. The "pond" lot is now a surface lot, instead of a multi-level garage as in earlier proposals. The rendering in the article shows what appears to be a parking structure, with green space on top.
2. The parking lot will be "constructed in the place of storm water retention pond " - where will the retention provided by the existing pond take place? The development is increasing the amount of impervious surface by replacing the pond with a paved parking lot.
3. If the developer wants more land, they get it free, and the REV grant is increased accordingly.
Although specific uses (boutique hotel, luxury apartments, office building) are listed, the agreement also says the developer can do whatever they want, if the market isn't there for the original uses.
Which brings up a question - who is going to want to pay premium prices to live 800 feet from a football stadium and amphitheater? Will there be high level soundproofing on the apartment tower (or mid-rise building)? Besides the noise, just getting to/from your apartment during an event will be a nightmare.
Why 'luxury' apartments. Why not just market-rate apartments? Freaking 1%ers always have their hands out.
Pardon my language, but what in the actual f*ck is this development agreement?
I know some of you guys say we shouldn't compare the Lot J development to Kansas City's Power & Light District, but I think it's absolutely the best comparison.
Kansas City was in a state of desperation in terms of downtown development in the early 2000s, enlisted Cordish, and made a deal that reeked of desperation that they're still paying for today.
This agreement has that same feel, perhaps worse. Cordish gets the land for free in Jacksonville's case. The city even pays to clean it up for them. Taxpayers pay for parking garages for private hotel, residential, and office uses and bankroll a surface parking lot over a retention pond that Cordish could immediately take back at any point while requesting new parking elsewhere. Further, Cordish operates all of this city financed parking and keeps proceeds above "historic levels" (which I'd imagine would be very, very, very low for the area).
Unless the city has $200 million in spare cash floating around, I imagine this project is going to be debt-financed, with grand promises about how, with the new taxes it generates (even with massive abatements), it will all but pay for itself. And, just like Power & Light, when the realities fail to meet the promises, our already cashed-strapped city is going to be dipping into the general fund every year to pay down the debt (KC was spending up to $15 million a year in debt service for Power & Light before refinancing to extend the payments).
To me, what's most troubling in the development agreement (and again, something that Kansas City is still struggling with) is the clause that seems to guarantee Cordish/Gecko similar incentives for any additional development they do on surrounding properties. Kansas City has been on the hook for over $50 million in cash and tax abatements for the TwoLight and ThreeLight luxury apartment towers Cordish developed there.
To me, it's one thing to throw $100 million at this standalone Lot J district that the Jags are planning and call it a day. It's another thing to throw $230 million at it and agree to keep incentivizing adjacent projects in perpetuity (much of it luxury residential).
Love the Jags, realize we need to play nice with them to keep them in the city, and I think a Live! entertainment space would be fantastic for the stadium complex.
But to me, this deal puts literally 100% of our long-term downtown investment eggs into the sports complex and Shipyards. If Lot J is successful, there's going to be pressure to put all of our resources into the Shipyards to keep the momentum going. If it isn't successful, there's going to be similar pressure to develop the Shipyards/sports complex in order to increase density and stop the general fund bleeding on Lot J.
It is just so frustrating and insane that a city with limited dollars for capital improvement projects is spending $20 million to demolish our festival marketplace, and another $50 million+++++++++++ to rebuild it in a less desirable location.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 01, 2019, 11:40:26 AM
This section is interesting, under "Development Scope and Investment
Quote
In the event ... the Developer desires to expand the area of the Project to achieve the density desirable for success, the City will provide the Developer with the development rights to the surface parking lot constructed in the place of storm water retention pond and/or other adjacent property at no additional cost to the Developer. If the Developer chooses to develop the newly-constructed surface parking lot and/or other adjacent property, the City will provide access to REV grants similar to those provided for the Project.
2. The parking lot will be "constructed in the place of storm water retention pond " - where will the retention provided by the existing pond take place? The development is increasing the amount of impervious surface by replacing the pond with a paved parking lot.
This is done fairly easily, though expensively. You can make up for the loss of retention with underground storage vaults or exfiltration trenches throughout the development. I've done work on a cramped hospital campus, where we filled in a retention pond to construct a cancer center. We did exfiltration trenches throughout the campus and actually increased the amount of storage that was provided pre-filling of the pond. Unfortunately, it looks like the taxpayers will be footing the bill for this type of work.
So i am not overly familiar at the financials behind this:
1) Is it assumed that the City will assume a massive amount of debt to finance this project?
2) If the sales tax revue fails to pay for servicing this debt, does the debt service come from the general fund?
3) If Cordish/Kahn decide to develop adjoining properties is COJ on the hook for more land transfer/tax breaks/infrastructure improvements?
Thanks for the ELI5.
I am totally "amp"ed about this - can't wait for this thing to go live! #JaxOnTheRise
It will be interesting to watch this plan play out in tandem with round two of the JEA privatization push.
I assume the Jags are still going to want some kind of dome-like structure in a few years as part of their stadium improvement demands for staying in Jax.
Just to protect ourselves we should have a clause that says if the Jags leave Jax they owe repayment of all the incentives and ownership of all properties revert to the City.
The more I process this deal, the crazier it seems.
I think we all kind of assumed that public incentives would come primarily in the form of REV grants, with a large chunk of cash upfront for infrastructure improvements and parking.
The $80 million incentives given to the District, for example, was roughly 30% cash for infrastructure, and 70% tax abatements based on future value.
The $36 million incentives package proposed for Berkman II was roughly 60% tax abatements based on future value, with 40% coming in the form of actual cash grants.
This Lot J agreement is legit 90% cash.
$208.3 million cash versus a mere $25 million in REV.
A $450 million project with only $5 million more in REV grants than the $100 million (failed) Berkman II.
Looking at the how that money breaks down:
1) $93 million in infrastructure improvements from the city for integrated parking garages, surface parking, environmental remediation, landscaping etc. I'm not crazy about the city giving away the land for free, while also paying the full price for remediation, but we knew the infrastructure ask was going to be high, particularly for parking.
2) $50 million for half of the Live! venue/entertainment complex. Again, not crazy about the city paying $50 million to "own" a mall it won't see operating income OR property taxes from.
3) $65 million in free taxpayer money in the form of a grant meant to "facilitiate the project." We're paying for the infrastructure. We're providing the land. We're paying for half of the Live! venue. And on top of that, we're just going to gift the developers $65 million to build a hotel, luxury apartments, and an office building??? And this isn't even explicitly stated as a completion grant. More of a starter grant.
And, here's the real kicker.
The developer has the right to shift funding from any of those three cash buckets as it sees fit. In other words, let's say the developer decides to cheap out and only make $60 million in infrastructure improvements or only builds an $80 million Live! complex, they can turn around and put that $43 million into their hotel, apartments, or office building.
This is on top of a $38 million pre-facilitation grant in the form of the Hart Bridge ramp removal.
I mean, is it just me, or are the terms of this agreement absolutely baffling?
I get why we'd subsidize a Jacksonville Live! entertainment complex by the stadium, but $203 million in cash ($53 million more than our city's ENTIRE capital improvement budget for the year) for apartments, hotel, and office seems almost comical, doesn't it?
We all get "why" right? Gotta keep the team here, and this (and stadium renovations in the near future) is what it is going to take.
This is a terrible deal for the city, but its what needs to happen to keep the team here.
Pretty silly when you consider what's already proposed/under construction within a three block radius of Hemming Park is basically Lot J without the infrastructure costs.
VyStar corporate headquarters - $79 million
JEA corporate headquarters - $72 million
Ambassador Hotel and Apartments - $53 million
Barnett Building - $34 million
Laura Trio & Forsyth Garage - $44 million
Jones Brothers Furniture Building - $13 million
Hyatt Place Hotel - ??
.
.
.
Jacksonville Landing demo - $22 million & counting
More residential units, comparable amount of hotel units, way more office, more vertically mixed use and a larger centralized LIVE! if revamped. Take a fraction of the money proposed for Lot J and target a few key sites in the vicinity (ex. Old JEA Tower, revamping BOA and Wells Fargo at street level, etc.) and you'd be on the verge of seriously changing the face of downtown's heart virtually overnight.
Quote from: dp8541 on August 01, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
We all get "why" right? Gotta keep the team here, and this (and stadium renovations in the near future) is what it is going to take.
This is a terrible deal for the city, but its what needs to happen to keep the team here.
I actually prefer this argument over a hotel, apartment, office building and Landing 2.0 being pushed as the catalyst for revitalization of a central business district that's really a mile west of the site. The "keep the team here" line has way more merit.
So now I understand much better Curry's haste to demolish the Landing. Less competition from the Landing versus Lot J? Hmmm...I wonder. And what about the Northbank core? How will the assembling of Lot J affect the downtown urban core? Robbing peter to pay paul in my opinion. I know there are a lot of things going on in the CBD/urban downtown core; but it just seems that it's being ignored more and more. Don't gut or destroy Jacksonville's true heart and move it east displaced from the CBD/UC.
The solution to all our problems, including paying for Lot J:
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/302275-curry-debt-free-jea
It's a miracle cure for what ails ya.
Quote from: dp8541 on August 01, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
We all get "why" right? Gotta keep the team here, and this (and stadium renovations in the near future) is what it is going to take.
This is a terrible deal for the city, but its what needs to happen to keep the team here.
Yep. 100% correct. I don't think the Jags are worth it.
Let's see... we can't afford to spend $1 million on an election to maintain safe and secure schools (that are spending that much every 2 months on repairs until they are updated) but we do have over $200 million to support a billionaire and keep his football team? And do so by gifting him a "new central business district" to compete with the struggling one we already have? Mayor Curry is right. We won't recognize downtown when he ends his term... we won't even be able to find it.
Prioritizing football over educating our kids. And we wonder why our crime rate is so high!
P.S. Note, the biggest give away of all: I have read that Curry also got Rick Scott to select the census tract including the stadium, over much more deserving tracts, to create a Federal opportunity zone for Shad's project. As such, he may also never pay income tax on the millions to billions in profits he may gain on this project.
What a deal... City money, no significant risks accruing to the developer, no property taxes, no income taxes, keeps all the upside. Wonder if Curry's next job will be on the payroll of Shad?
I just started a petition on Change.org to tell City Council to reject the proposed incentive package. Please share: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
Curry is giving away the store. No city in their right mind would sign off on this deal.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 01, 2019, 10:27:04 PM
Curry is giving away the store. No city in their right mind would sign off on this deal.
So it is a lock then.
Quote from: Kerry on August 01, 2019, 07:31:25 PM
Quote from: dp8541 on August 01, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
We all get "why" right? Gotta keep the team here, and this (and stadium renovations in the near future) is what it is going to take.
This is a terrible deal for the city, but its what needs to happen to keep the team here.
Yep. 100% correct. I don't think the Jags are worth it.
Jacksonville reminds me of the battered woman who sticks with her man and swears that, in spite of the repeated beatings, he's a 'good man' who loves her.
Reading through the comments on several "pro-Jags" facebook pages there is a significant number of people who put the Jags above all other considerations (until it comes to buying a game ticket).
If Khan had asked for $1 trillion dollars and promised to build an outhouse they would still be in favor it, not because they believe a trillion dollar outhouse will revitalize downtown, but because they know the real thing at stake here is the NFL in Jax.
Everyone knows JEA, Lot J, and the Landing situation are only about keeping the Jags here. If those don't happen the Jags leave for London as soon as they can pack their bags. There are more than enough loopholes in the lease agreement for the Jags to just walk away.
If they want to go to London, Lot J won't stop that from happening. Lot J is peanuts in comparison. But yeah, a large segment will be supportive to anything Jags related. That's fine. That's what fans do.
Quote from: Kerry on August 02, 2019, 09:51:36 AM
Reading through the comments on several "pro-Jags" facebook pages there is a significant number of people who put the Jags above all other considerations (until it comes to buying a game ticket).
If Khan had asked for $1 trillion dollars and promised to build an outhouse they would still be in favor it, not because they believe a trillion dollar outhouse will revitalize downtown, but because they know the real thing at stake here is the NFL in Jax.
Everyone knows JEA, Lot J, and the Landing situation are only about keeping the Jags here. If those don't happen the Jags leave for London as soon as they can pack their bags. There are more than enough loopholes in the lease agreement for the Jags to just walk away.
I would say that this conversation has jumped the shark, but that would be an insult to The Fonz.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2019, 10:10:56 AM
But yeah, a large segment will be supportive to anything Jags related. That's fine. That's what fans do.
Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"
I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.
Quote from: pierre on August 02, 2019, 10:49:29 AM
Quote from: Kerry on August 02, 2019, 09:51:36 AM
Reading through the comments on several "pro-Jags" facebook pages there is a significant number of people who put the Jags above all other considerations (until it comes to buying a game ticket).
If Khan had asked for $1 trillion dollars and promised to build an outhouse they would still be in favor it, not because they believe a trillion dollar outhouse will revitalize downtown, but because they know the real thing at stake here is the NFL in Jax.
Everyone knows JEA, Lot J, and the Landing situation are only about keeping the Jags here. If those don't happen the Jags leave for London as soon as they can pack their bags. There are more than enough loopholes in the lease agreement for the Jags to just walk away.
I would say that this conversation has jumped the shark, but that would be an insult to The Fonz.
How has it jumped the shark? Kerry's comment - while obviously hyperbole - seems pretty on-point. He was basically saying that people use the fear of losing the Jaguars to justify shelling out massive amounts of public $$$.
That seems to fit with, "Are you okay investing $233 million for Lot J?"
Quote from: Adam White on August 02, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2019, 10:10:56 AM
But yeah, a large segment will be supportive to anything Jags related. That's fine. That's what fans do.
Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"
I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.
Crony Capitalism at its finest.
Quote from: Adam White on August 02, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2019, 10:10:56 AM
But yeah, a large segment will be supportive to anything Jags related. That's fine. That's what fans do.
Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"
I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.
100% correct and as a fiscal conservative it really pisses me off. Khan is a billionaire 5 times over. He could sell his boat and pay for all this himself. The NFL is worth untold billions. Let them pay for their own financial security. They don't like empty seat - put a damned competitive team on the field, lower tickets prices to the point 65,000 people want to go, and stop raping people on concession prices. If they can't do that and make a profit then their business model is flawed and they should go the way of all the other flawed businesses.
It is okay to have nice things that the public can enjoy, and certainly pro sports teams are part of that, but there comes a time when the bulk of the benefits switches from the public at-large to the team itself. The NFL passed that threshold a long time ago.
Sounds like a portion of the project could be funded through the bed tax:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-could-use-hotel-bed-tax-to-fund-deal-lot-j-deal-finance-committee-chair-says
I'm ok with the city's $50 million contribution toward the Live! venue being propped up via bed tax, particularly if maintenance and capital upgrades are handled by Cordish (which the term sheet indicates). Without seeing any numbers, I think it's reasonable to assume that having a Cordish entertainment complex down by the stadium/arena/baseball grounds/amphitheater makes the sports complex more conducive to hosting events and more attractive to overnight visitors. In that sense, you'd hope that the Jacksonville Live! component would eventually drive enough incremental revenue to offset the costs.
That said, there's no universe where you could justify leveraging the bed tax for the rest of the development.
Could you imagine the Hyatt or the Omni handing over their bed taxes to the city, only to have them used to finance a competing hotel in the stadium district?
Quote from: Kerry on August 02, 2019, 11:17:28 AM
Quote from: Adam White on August 02, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2019, 10:10:56 AM
But yeah, a large segment will be supportive to anything Jags related. That's fine. That's what fans do.
Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"
I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.
100% correct and as a fiscal conservative it really pisses me off. Khan is a billionaire 5 times over. He could sell his boat and pay for all this himself. The NFL is worth untold billions. Let them pay for their own financial security. They don't like empty seat - put a damned competitive team on the field, lower tickets prices to the point 65,000 people want to go, and stop raping people on concession prices. If they can't do that and make a profit then their business model is flawed and they should go the way of all the other flawed businesses.
It is okay to have nice things that the public can enjoy, and certainly pro sports teams are part of that, but there comes a time when the bulk of the benefits switches from the public at-large to the team itself. The NFL passed that threshold a long time ago.
I like football and, although not a Jaguars fan (I was a Dolphins fan already when the city was awarded a franchise), I can totally understand wanting an NFL team. And I can even understand making some concessions here or there. But let's be realistic about this - we can't keep throwing money at the NFL while saying there isn't enough money for necessary services. It's sad to see how out of kilter our priorities are.
I see this as a failure of leadership - and that doesn't surprise me, because Jacksonville has had a severe leadership deficit for a very long time.
Quote from: Kerry on August 02, 2019, 11:17:28 AMKhan is a billionaire 5 times over. He could sell his boat and pay for all this himself.
This is the weird part to me.
When you look at the other projects that the city has partnered with the Jags on - the video boards/cabanas, the amphitheater and practice facility, etc - it's always been a 50/50 split between the public and the Jags.
Shad Khan puts up half the capital, the city puts up the other half.
Risk is shared somewhat equally.
For this project though, it feels like more of a 50/50 split with Cordish, with the proposed terms not being that much different than what Cordish proposes in places like Kansas City where there's no direct involvement from a professional sports franchise.
I"m curious to know what the Jaguars specific skin in the game is.
Are they putting up a ton of capital, or are they just facilitating a deal between the city and Cordish?
I always kind of assumed that the final deal would be a 33/33/33 capital/risk split between the city, the Jags, and Cordish.
Definitely doesn't seem to be the case.
Nashville got AllianceBernstein to move 1,000 jobs from Manhattan in exchange for $17m plus a tax break.
How on earth can we justify spending 10x that for some commercial properties and a new landing? Jax metro apartment construction starts over the last 12-months totaled 7,000 units (a record). New office buildings are being completed on Gate Pkwy. Hotels are starting to pop up in downtown proper.
The city providing a 50% subsidy for what is already occurring on an organic basis is mind numbing. Shad should at least have the decency to move his companies into the shiny new office building taxpayers are going to gift him.
Oh and one last thing. Really smart to plan a $450m development and not tie one of Jacksonville's most unique assets: the St Johns River.
Quote from: DrQue on August 02, 2019, 11:43:51 AMOh and one last thing. Really smart to plan a $450m development and not tie one of Jacksonville's most unique assets: the St Johns River.
This also baffles me.
If construction isn't going to start until the Hart Bridge ramps are removed, and Lot J also requires remediation, why not build on the other side of the street and take advantage of the riverfront.
Wouldn't the hotel, apartments, and office space be much more desirable with unobstructured riverfront views, and wouldn't all the proposed public space be much more attractive along the river?
Plus, you save all those parking spots in Lot J instead of having to rebuild them elsewhere.
The best thing to do in this case is to let the city council know how you feel about it until it hopefully goes away. Curry has nothing to lose in this shinanegans, the council members that will be up for reelection do.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2019, 12:14:31 PM
Quote from: DrQue on August 02, 2019, 11:43:51 AMOh and one last thing. Really smart to plan a $450m development and not tie one of Jacksonville's most unique assets: the St Johns River.
This also baffles me.
If construction isn't going to start until the Hart Bridge ramps are removed, and Lot J also requires remediation, why not build on the other side of the street and take advantage of the riverfront.
Wouldn't the hotel, apartments, and office space be much more desirable with unobstructured riverfront views, and wouldn't all the proposed public space be much more attractive along the river?
Plus, you save all those parking spots in Lot J instead of having to rebuild them elsewhere.
I get why it economically makes since to take the bridge down first. None of that property (on either side of the viaduct) is viable for any of the proposed Lot J uses if it isn't easily accessible. For market rate development to work, everything needs to be directly accessible to a population much greater than what currently uses Gator Bowl Boulevard on a daily basis.
Unfortunately, much of our downtown development is being piecemealed into a modern Frankenstein at a crazy cost to the public. It will really suck when much of it fails and the expense is used to stop future needed downtown projects from being funded. Hopefully, Boyer is successful at bringing things together in a manner that enhances what's already proposed in a manner to where it cohesively leads to a vibrant end game, sooner rather than later and for a fraction of the costs.
Quote from: acme54321 on August 02, 2019, 12:29:14 PM
The best thing to do in this case is to let the city council know how you feel about it until it hopefully goes away. Curry has nothing to lose in this shinanegans, the council members that will be up for reelection do.
If people here would like to start posting the questions they believe council should ask and consider as a part of their evaluation, we can submit them as a unified document to council members.
In 2015 Oklahoma City walked away from this $553 million development because the subsidy request from the developer was ridiculous (around $100 million if memory serves correctly. The developer promised 2 residential towners, 2 office towers, a hotel, and a significant amount of retail space. Let's hope COJ has the same fortitude.
(http://www.okctalk.com/images/pete/ogewiki1.jpg)
Quote from: Bill Hoff on August 01, 2019, 06:33:21 PM
The solution to all our problems, including paying for Lot J:
https://floridapolitics.com/archives/302275-curry-debt-free-jea (https://floridapolitics.com/archives/302275-curry-debt-free-jea)
It's a miracle cure for what ails ya.
Well... there it is. That's the endgame, folks.
Quote from: Adam White on August 02, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"
I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.
Jax is a purple city that voted for Bill Nelson and Andrew Gillum in the last election. A "very conservative population" would be putting a microscope on St Johns County. Besides IMO many being a "Rah rah rah, DTWD, the Jags brass can't do anything wrong" without taking account of possible future detrimental repercussions, can surprisingly be non-political. That's not limited to Jacksonville fans either.
What do yall think, is it gonna pass the city council, or nah?
It seems like the very top tier cities (NY, LA etc) gets the best deals with sports related infrastructure projects (as it's often fully privately financed) while all of the other cities often have to give an arm and a leg.
I'm a big Jags fan, but I get the pushback with tearing down the Landing, and building east of it at the stadium, with alot of public tax money involved.
Quote from: I-10east on August 02, 2019, 11:26:54 PM
What do yall think, is it gonna pass the city council, or nah?
It seems like the very top tier cities (NY, LA etc) gets the best deals with sports related infrastructure projects (as it's often fully privately financed) while all of the other cities often have to give an arm and a leg.
I'm a big Jags fan, but I get the pushback with tearing down the Landing, and building east of it at the stadium, with alot of public tax money involved.
Of course it is going to pass. However, the concept is so misconceived it will never be successful and Jax will live with this mistake long past the death of everyone here.
Quote from: I-10east on August 02, 2019, 11:05:20 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 02, 2019, 10:51:46 AM
Ever hear the saying, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money?"
I find it dismaying that the very conservative population of North Florida change their stripes when it suits them. The same sort of people who vilify 'welfare queens' turn a blind eye when uber-welfare queen Shad Khan comes calling with an outstretched palm.
Jax is a purple city that voted for Bill Nelson and Andrew Gillum in the last election. A "very conservative population" would be putting a microscope on St Johns County. Besides IMO many being a "Rah rah rah, DTWD, the Jags brass can't do anything wrong" without taking account of possible future detrimental repercussions, can surprisingly be non-political. That's not limited to Jacksonville fans either.
I'd say the population of Jacksonville is conservative fiscally. In any event, it's a shame that people will willingly throw money at sports projects but are averse to taxes to fund necessary things.
You're right that's it's not just Jax - but I think the leadership in Jax has been particularly willing to roll over for the NFL. At the time, the deal the Jaguars got to come to Jax was (IIRC) the most 'friendly' deal to date.
You can contrast this (if you like) with the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium in London. It's a state-of-the-art stadium that is widely considered the best football stadium in the UK (and maybe the world, at the moment). In fact, it will host the NFL. Anyway, it cost about £1 billion and was paid for by the club. Actually, the cost was for the entire "Northumberland Development Project" which included other amenities - such as a supermarket, sports facilities, a hotel, public spaces, etc.
Quote from: I-10east on August 02, 2019, 11:26:54 PM
What do yall think, is it gonna pass the city council, or nah?
It seems like the very top tier cities (NY, LA etc) gets the best deals with sports related infrastructure projects (as it's often fully privately financed) while all of the other cities often have to give an arm and a leg.
I'm a big Jags fan, but I get the pushback with tearing down the Landing, and building east of it at the stadium, with alot of public tax money involved.
I just wish there was a way to not make the public pay for this. I've nothing against Khan (well, except for the ponytail) - and have no reason to doubt his committment to Jacksonville - but I'd like him a lot more if he was paying for stuff like this himself!
The Landing thing is kind of sad to me. Regardless of the city's plans, I can't help but think it will be an empty lot for quite some time before anything happens to it. I don't understand the desire to tear stuff down in Jax.
Quote from: Adam White on August 03, 2019, 04:24:21 AM
You can contrast this (if you like) with the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium in London. It's a state-of-the-art stadium that is widely considered the best football stadium in the UK (and maybe the world, at the moment). In fact, it will host the NFL. Anyway, it cost about £1 billion and was paid for by the club. Actually, the cost was for the entire "Northumberland Development Project" which included other amenities - such as a supermarket, sports facilities, a hotel, public spaces, etc.
Just what I was talking about, these top tier cities like London getting sports infrastructure deals that are fully privately financed, with no taxpayer money involved.
Quote from: Adam White on August 03, 2019, 04:27:56 AM
The Landing thing is kind of sad to me. Regardless of the city's plans, I can't help but think it will be an empty lot for quite some time before anything happens to it. I don't understand the desire to tear stuff down in Jax.
I agree. IMO Jax was on a pretty good hiatus (for the most part) from mindlessly tearing down notable buildings, but now we are red hot once again!
Old Duval County Courthouse: Even though nothing is imminent to replace it, I actually don't have a problem with it being torn down. Pretty much unsalvageable, asbestos filled etc. It was gonna have to come down eventually, also being an eyesore.
City Hall Annex: I would've pumped the brakes, with nothing being set to replace it. Plus IMO it gave the Northbank skyline some depth, and not a bad looking building IMO. I'm not sure if it could've been repurposed to anything, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it could've. Shouldn't have been torn down, if nothing wasn't set to replace it immediately.
Jacksonville Landing: An absolute travesty. I don't know what the F the city council was thinking about; seriously, were they paid off? An iconic building in the city will be lost, no doubt. I don't know if you can be saddened and angry at the same time, but that's the way I feel.
Quote from: I-10east on August 03, 2019, 05:27:22 AM
Quote from: Adam White on August 03, 2019, 04:24:21 AM
You can contrast this (if you like) with the new Tottenham Hotspur stadium in London. It's a state-of-the-art stadium that is widely considered the best football stadium in the UK (and maybe the world, at the moment). In fact, it will host the NFL. Anyway, it cost about £1 billion and was paid for by the club. Actually, the cost was for the entire "Northumberland Development Project" which included other amenities - such as a supermarket, sports facilities, a hotel, public spaces, etc.
Just what I was talking about, these top tier cities like London getting sports infrastructure deals that are fully privately financed, with no taxpayer money involved.
I think it's a cultural thing, too. Plus, the nature of the sport is way different. As opposed to a league with x number of teams that awards franchises, there are 20 teams in the top league, but the bottom three drop out and three are promoted from the next lower league each season. Clubs move up and down the pyramid over time. You could technically start a team and eventually work your way up to the top league (more or less). And London currently has five clubs in the top league and four clubs in the tier below.
That said, I am sure some incentives were offered or breaks given here or there. I'd be shocked to learn Tottenham didn't benefit at all from either funds or concessions. But the overwhelming majoriity of the funding was secured by the club.
As an aside, West Ham were basically given the Olympic stadium and the public paid to adapt it for soccer. So there's always that...
I'd love to open a small business in Jacksonville and get the city to pay 51% of the cost. Oh, wait, to do that I'd have to take Lenny on a free trip in my private jet to show him similar operations. I don't have a private jet so I guess I don't get handouts. I must be a loser!
Makes one imagine what the Landing would have been if a fraction of the city's time and commitment were involved that its smaller, $75 million in city money replacement is receiving. Yet these very same people were livid about Alvin Brown's $12 million proposed dramactic upgrade. My how times have changed.
Would be hilarious if someone with video editing skills created a Shad Khan version of this video laughing about how he's been able to get the City and Curry to do whatever he wants. If well written, it would probably do more to draw attention to this than any other form of lobbying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FMlsoUbf_o
JAX put $50 million, in 2019 dollars, into The Landing when it was built.
Maybe this time, the $50M won't be a waste of money.
Probably not.
So it goes.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 03, 2019, 02:33:59 PM
JAX put $50 million, in 2019 dollars, into The Landing when it was built.
More reason to not waste the investment. Paying $22 million to tear down a structurally sound $50 million investment, to end up with a dirt lot is about as foolish as it gets.
Nate Monroe nails it once again and echos many of the points of my prior post including prioritizing Khan over other City needs and the schools and him getting both property tax and federal income tax waivers. This would be a high end scandal in any other community. Why are Jax citizens so compliant? Doesn't bode well for the future of our City and could actually diminish the Jags future fandom as our overall quality of life investment drops so low it drives growth away (see big population moves to surrounding counties due to Duval school concerns). Khan can easily just move the team in such case while most of us residents will be left holding the bag he leaves behind.
Must reading!
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190802/nate-monroe-city-hall-inc (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190802/nate-monroe-city-hall-inc)
"It's easier here" - backroom deals, graft, cronyism, purchasing politicians, public funds for private profit, and the like.
Properly funding infrastructure and schools - not so much.
Once again I'll remind everyone here that Shad Khan does not even pay taxes (i.e. reside) in Duval County.
Nate Monroe's column is spot on. There is a lot in there too. It's piling up on Lenny's door....
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
Get the cranes rolling while we hand out Kleenex to those who need them
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on August 03, 2019, 11:26:56 PM
Nate Monroe nails it once again and echos many of the points of my prior post including prioritizing Khan over other City needs and the schools and him getting both property tax and federal income tax waivers. This would be a high end scandal in any other community. Why are Jax citizens so compliant? Doesn't bode well for the future of our City and could actually diminish the Jags future fandom as our overall quality of life investment drops so low it drives growth away (see big population moves to surrounding counties due to Duval school concerns). Khan can easily just move the team in such case while most of us residents will be left holding the bag he leaves behind.
Must reading!
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190802/nate-monroe-city-hall-inc (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190802/nate-monroe-city-hall-inc)
Are you suggesting Jacksonville is the only city/county that bends over backwards for sports owners and enters into questionable deals?
Perhaps you are not up to speed on the situation with the Marlins new stadium in Miami, or the Vikings in Minneapolis.
Also, you are suggesting that quality of life will suffer so much from Lot J that the Jaguars will lose fans and Khan moves the team?
That is a new one.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Yup! If you want a downtown urban environment, Jax ain't it. Hasn't been for 40+ years. Might not be for many more.
I've found a niche I like a lot in Riverside after many years of living on the suburban sprawling expanse of the Beach/Hodges area to be nearer to UNF. I found what I like in Jax and make Jax work for me. I could live elsewhere, but the math adds up for me to stay here. Would I have picked it? Maybe not. Am I here now? Yep. Do I have a reason to leave? Nope. But that's my experience, yours is very obviously different.
I presume the lifestyle you want is one where you live downtown and can walk to work and a grocer and a bar and a restaurant and maybe need a car for your family when you need it. Is that close?
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Bye
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.
There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).
May want to cross those states off the list.
What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure?
Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.
QuoteThere is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).
The state of SC just incentivized relocation of the practice field and the team HQ. Moving the stadium would require state money, no SC city in the CLT metro could cover the cost or even a fraction of it.
Quote from: pierre on August 06, 2019, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.
There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).
May want to cross those states off the list.
Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on August 06, 2019, 09:28:44 AM
As much as despise this proposal, I am also concerned about the future stadium ask. I certainly admire the way the Jags have done this in incremental changes as the more we have invested that is "Jags related"the harder it becomes not to cave on any larger request with the veiled threat of a move. In order to stay viable..in order to compete...there is always something of that nature.
I expect big tax dollars for stadium renovations in the future and I doubt the city says no. At that point, there will be a ton invested in the Jags. Hard to look at what has been "invested" /built and suddenly think of it with no Jags. I would be surprised if it is worth it (hard to quantify I know) compared to what could have been done with the money.
Absolutely agree.
I also think the city and the media is conveniently discussing Lot J in a vacuum, like it's a $230 million one-and-done investment to jumpstart the stadium district.
It's not.
It's part of a much larger, multi-phase, $2.5 billion project that the Jags envision for the sports complex.
If we go down the road of subsidizing half of Phase I, there's a pretty good chance we'll literally end up putting another billion dollars into subsequent phases down the road,
on top of the stadium improvements that we know are coming.(https://snag.gy/wN9GJo.jpg)
The Jags lease expires in ten years, and I have zero doubt that they want to remain in Jacksonville (while continuing to have a secondary presence in London). That said, before pumping $270 million into our NFL district (inclusive of the Hart Bridge ramp removal), it would be nice to have a roadmap of the future asks that the Jags envision making of the city, as well as some good faith assurances that if X conditions are met, we can count on having the franchise anchoring the proposed Shipyards district well beyond 2029.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 06, 2019, 10:11:38 AM
What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure?
Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.
Ok. Here's one.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/18/rangers-stadium-cost-taxpayers-1-billion/92357198/
And the city is helping fund an entertainment district next door.
Based off the past partnership deals at and around the stadium, assume at least COJ funding 50% of anything proposed in the future.
^Curry claims he would use any money from a JEA sale to make Jacksonville a completely debt-free city (with an additional $800 million in a lock box accruing interest into the city coffers), and that no portion of the proceeds would go to Lot J.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/mayor-curry-says-a-jea-sale-could-make-the-city-debt-free-but-says-hes-not-involved-in-decision-making/77-af7d106e-9c6c-420b-af81-caa586644f17
That said, certainly doesn't mean you couldn't use the proceeds from a JEA sale to pay off the city's debts, and then later build up the Shipyards on the back of new debt or a new half-cent sales tax once BJP and pensions are paid down.
Quote from: pierre on August 06, 2019, 10:47:20 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on August 06, 2019, 10:11:38 AM
What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure?
Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.
Ok. Here's one.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/18/rangers-stadium-cost-taxpayers-1-billion/92357198/
And the city is helping fund an entertainment district next door.
The article only refers to a $1 billion stadium, but regardless that is insane deal too.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 06, 2019, 11:37:15 AM
Quote from: pierre on August 06, 2019, 10:47:20 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on August 06, 2019, 10:11:38 AM
What does it say about a city that it will dramatically fund selected private enterprise (that is in competition with other private providers), while not even allowing a referundum to support needed education infrastructure?
Unlike Miami and Minneapolis, this ISN'T for the stadium, there will be another hit to the taxpayers for that, after this fleecing is over. To say nothing of the prior fleecing for video boards and swimming pools.
Ok. Here's one.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2016/10/18/rangers-stadium-cost-taxpayers-1-billion/92357198/
And the city is helping fund an entertainment district next door.
The article only refers to a $1 billion stadium, but regardless that is insane deal too.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/texas-rangers-announced-250-million-entertainment-district-next-stadium/
So $500mm of the $1 billion spent on the stadium, and $100 miilion of the $250mm entertainment district.
Insane. At least the ones paying for it, got to vote on it.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: pierre on August 06, 2019, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.
There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).
May want to cross those states off the list.
Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.
Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has. If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto. There is room. "They" are all moving out. Jacksonville is fine with me. I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia. It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different. I like having room. I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house. You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy. Jacksonville has plenty. Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 06, 2019, 02:41:57 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: pierre on August 06, 2019, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.
There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).
May want to cross those states off the list.
Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.
Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has. If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto. There is room. "They" are all moving out. Jacksonville is fine with me. I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia. It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different. I like having room. I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house. You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy. Jacksonville has plenty. Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.
He knows all of that, he lives in the suburbs.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 06, 2019, 10:43:31 AM
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on August 06, 2019, 09:28:44 AM
As much as despise this proposal, I am also concerned about the future stadium ask. I certainly admire the way the Jags have done this in incremental changes as the more we have invested that is "Jags related"the harder it becomes not to cave on any larger request with the veiled threat of a move. In order to stay viable..in order to compete...there is always something of that nature.
I expect big tax dollars for stadium renovations in the future and I doubt the city says no. At that point, there will be a ton invested in the Jags. Hard to look at what has been "invested" /built and suddenly think of it with no Jags. I would be surprised if it is worth it (hard to quantify I know) compared to what could have been done with the money.
Absolutely agree.
I also think the city and the media is conveniently discussing Lot J in a vacuum, like it's a $230 million one-and-done investment to jumpstart the stadium district.
It's not.
It's part of a much larger, multi-phase, $2.5 billion project that the Jags envision for the sports complex.
If we go down the road of subsidizing half of Phase I, there's a pretty good chance we'll literally end up putting another billion dollars into subsequent phases down the road, on top of the stadium improvements that we know are coming.
(https://snag.gy/wN9GJo.jpg)
The Jags lease expires in ten years, and I have zero doubt that they want to remain in Jacksonville (while continuing to have a secondary presence in London). That said, before pumping $270 million into our NFL district (inclusive of the Hart Bridge ramp removal), it would be nice to have a roadmap of the future asks that the Jags envision making of the city, as well as some good faith assurances that if X conditions are met, we can count on having the franchise anchoring the proposed Shipyards district well beyond 2029.
There are discussions of bed taxes paying for this but I worry that we won't have any money left for the roof that the Jags will want to put on the stadium in 2030 or the convention center we allegedly want.
Is Lot J an easier environmental clean up in comparison to the other Shipyard lots such as X near A. Phillip Randolph?
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 06, 2019, 02:41:57 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Quote from: pierre on August 06, 2019, 09:58:24 AM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 08:57:55 AM
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on August 05, 2019, 11:07:14 PM
Unsurprisingly, my petition asking city council to reject the proposed incentives has not had much traction yet. Based on the conversations I've had with random strangers, it seems that most people seem to think that this is a net positive despite the terrible terms. Any suggestions are welcome, too.
You can sign the petition here: http://chng.it/SJHYPdFv
The conclusion I have come to is that I have cut my loses and move. If Jax isn't providing the lifestyle I want then it is up to me to vote with my feet. I've been taking the wife every few weeks to Tennessee, North and South Carolina, and Georgia to plant the seeds of relocating. Seeing Chattanooga, Greenville, and Knoxville has opened her eyes to whole new type of city. Jax can woller in their mess without me.
Bad news for you. The Panthers owner is laying the groundwork for a new stadium ask.
There is a good chance that Charlotte or a suburb (possibly in SC) give in to their owner (the richest in the league).
May want to cross those states off the list.
Maybe so, but at least I still get walkable urbanism and urban vibrancy out of the deal.
Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has. If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto. There is room. "They" are all moving out. Jacksonville is fine with me. I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia. It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different. I like having room. I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house. You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy. Jacksonville has plenty. Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.
Anecdotal, I have lived in NYC, LA, and San Diego, if it wasn't for my wife's job we would move in a heartbeat. I hate this area, hate that downtown is a one and done if I venture that way for an event, hate that I can't walk everywhere or get an uber to go out for a night on the town. Hate that as an adult I have nearly zero options Monday through Thursday to be out after 10.
Lot J will be more of the same. If I go to a show at Daily's Place and the concert ends at 10, will LIVE be open to 3 am on a Monday? Or will it be more of the same, drive to downtown for a one off event and drive home... :-X
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 06, 2019, 02:41:57 PM
Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has. If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto. There is room. "They" are all moving out. Jacksonville is fine with me. I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia. It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different. I like having room. I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house. You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy. Jacksonville has plenty. Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags. Well, except maybe London. They would probably take the Jags.
The rest of your post won't get an argument from me. Jax is nothing but wide open spaces, ample parking lots, and low density sprawl. And yes, most new arrivals I talk to love the same thing you do. They sure aren't moving to Jax for its vibrant urbanism. Jax is attracting exactly the type of people that are attracted to what Jax has to offer. My problem, I already lived in Jax before I learned about urbanism. There would be no way in hell I would move to Jax if knew what I know now.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags. Well, except maybe London. They would probably take the Jags.
Okay, let's not get carried away here.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 06, 2019, 02:41:57 PM
Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has. If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto. There is room. "They" are all moving out. Jacksonville is fine with me. I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia. It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different. I like having room. I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house. You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy. Jacksonville has plenty. Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags. Well, except maybe London. They would probably take the Jags.
The rest of your post won't get an argument from me. Jax is nothing but wide open spaces, ample parking lots, and low density sprawl. And yes, most new arrivals I talk to love the same thing you do. They sure aren't moving to Jax for its vibrant urbanism. Jax is attracting exactly the type of people that are attracted to what Jax has to offer. My problem, I already lived in Jax before I learned about urbanism. There would be no way in hell I would move to Jax if knew what I know now.
I understand. In the 70s everyone wanted to live in Mandarin. Now it's too crowded for me. I love small town living. Every time I go to a walkable, densely populated place, I can't wait to go home. When I went to Ireland I loved the small villages and countryside. I felt nervous in Dublin. Different strokes. My idea of walkable is walking along the mossy oak lined streets here. I don't want a concrete jungle.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.
I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 06, 2019, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 06, 2019, 02:41:57 PM
Kerry, Greenville, Chattanooga, and Knoxville would do anything to have what Jacksonville has. If you want urbanism, move to NYC, Chicago, or Toronto. There is room. "They" are all moving out. Jacksonville is fine with me. I've lived in NC, Tenn., and Georgia. It's nice there as a tourist, but once you are there it's a lot different. I like having room. I don't want to hear my neighbor passing gas in the next house. You want crowded, walkable urbanism, I love the wide open spaces and privacy. Jacksonville has plenty. Ask new arrivals from those urban areas and they will tell you they got tired of living like rats and walking everywhere or hailing taxis.
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags. Well, except maybe London. They would probably take the Jags.
The rest of your post won't get an argument from me. Jax is nothing but wide open spaces, ample parking lots, and low density sprawl. And yes, most new arrivals I talk to love the same thing you do. They sure aren't moving to Jax for its vibrant urbanism. Jax is attracting exactly the type of people that are attracted to what Jax has to offer. My problem, I already lived in Jax before I learned about urbanism. There would be no way in hell I would move to Jax if knew what I know now.
I understand. In the 70s everyone wanted to live in Mandarin. Now it's too crowded for me. I love small town living. Every time I go to a walkable, densely populated place, I can't wait to go home. When I went to Ireland I loved the small villages and countryside. I felt nervous in Dublin. Different strokes. My idea of walkable is walking along the mossy oak lined streets here. I don't want a concrete jungle.
Walkable Urbanism isn't just large cities. Check out Pwllheli, Wales. Even in colonial America, the farmers all lived around the town square and commuted to their farm. It was until Jefferson that people actually living on the farm was considered 'normal', and that was because of the Louisiana Purchase opened up farm land fast than cities could be built.
Quote from: Adam White on August 06, 2019, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.
I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.
Ummm - Knoxville and Chattanooga have the Tennessee River and Greenville has the Reedy River. They don't need the St. Johns. Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.
Knoxville
(https://gardenandgun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/105629_20161016_FB_Alabama_Knoxville_CB_112.jpg)
Chattanooga
(https://www.visittheusa.com/sites/default/files/styles/hero_m_1300x700/public/images/hero_media_image/2016-10/1%20HERO_1_Chattanooga%20Aerial_Web72DPI.jpg?itok=bbadxQck)
Greenville
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zlC5KqPklAc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Perhaps living on a cruise ship would be preferable to Jax, huh?
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 06, 2019, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.
I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.
Ummm - Knoxville and Chattanooga have the Tennessee River and Greenville has the Reedy River. They don't need the St. Johns. Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.
Knoxville
(https://gardenandgun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/105629_20161016_FB_Alabama_Knoxville_CB_112.jpg)
Chattanooga
(https://www.visittheusa.com/sites/default/files/styles/hero_m_1300x700/public/images/hero_media_image/2016-10/1%20HERO_1_Chattanooga%20Aerial_Web72DPI.jpg?itok=bbadxQck)
Greenville
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zlC5KqPklAc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Come on dude. It's gotta be tiring. No one uses the St John's? Give me a break. I gaurantee you there are more people on our waterways any given day than all of those cities combined.
The Riverwalk is a cool walk/run/bike path that covers BOTH SIDES of the river. Plus, Florida life dictates that there's tons of boaters out listening to Redneck Yacht Club, fishin' and drinkin' every weekend in Jax. I see people fishing in Metro Park often, along the riverwalk, darn near Downtown a lot of times.
Maybe you'd like a riverfront park? I hear there's something in the works on the landing site...
Oh wait we hate that idea.
Lot J isn't on the river. That riverfront area is criminally undeveloped, but that's mainly because the soils there are heavily contaminated, as we all know. You can hardly give that land away, it's so contaminated. That said, Lot J seems to be a gateway to riverfront development, especially in conjunction with the removal of the Hart Expressway.
We have Metro Park, but it's not a busy destination. We had the Landing, but it had dwindling numbers ever since the day it opened 32 years ago. We've got awesome places like the Riverside Arts Market and the Riverwalk, which I see people in droves out on every weekend. River & Post has a sweet overlook, we have several small riverfront parks along the river and it's creeks. We call ourselves the River City.
What exactly would qualify as "using the St Johns" anyhow? It's easy to gesture broadly at a lackluster downtown and say "THIS IS BAD THE WHOLE AREA SUCKS" but I think that's a gross oversimplification and a tossing out of the baby with the bathwater that is our quiet DT.
We are the RIVER CITY for goodness sakes, what exactly would "using the St Johns" be to you that it isn't right now?
This thread has really gone off the rails. Personally, I like what Chattanooga and Greenville have done with their downtowns over the last 20 years. Knoxville....it's okay but not the role model like the other two. It's exciting to see what they've done with their central business districts. There are a ton of things Jacksonville can learn from these smaller communities in regards to downtown revitalization but let's not get carried away. Being a metropolitan area of 1.5 million, Jax has a ton of amenities, assets, qualities, cultures, etc. that these places will lack in similar scale simply due to them being much smaller or physical location. Now if having a vibrant CBD that's walkable and alive 24/7 is one's top preference, I don't think any of these places are smart choices to relocate to. There's only a handful of cities in the US that truly offer that type of lifestyle.
You guys are such homers it is laughable. Good luck with that.
^I'm probably one of the biggest critics of Jax's urban core conditions around. It's lacking big time and those in charge clearly don't know or accept what it takes to activate street life. A lot needs to be done and the way things are going, it will take a generation or two for those things to happen. However, me and you are cut from a different cloth. There's nothing in my soul that would make me want to relocate to a city anywhere that has less than 1 million people, not on the coast and not with a significant minority population. IMO, the more diversity, the better. Been there, done that in an area that's comparable in size to those three cities. For what I'm into, it gets old real fast. Nothing in a smaller community's downtown is going to overcome those prerequisites for me. I also a planner that doesn't agree with Jeff Speck's position on everything and hate new urbanism that's curated and disneyfied (ex. Celebration, Seaside, etc.). Give me a Detroit over those places any day. But that's the beauty of America. We can go to places that cater to our personal prerequisites.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 06, 2019, 12:42:24 PM
So $500mm of the $1 billion spent on the stadium, and $100 miilion of the $250mm entertainment district.
Insane. At least the ones paying for it, got to vote on it.
I did some research on this awhile back and iirc Arlington hit such a home run with the Jerry's World deal (the Cowboys' AT&T Stadium) that they (leaders and residents) confidently backed this plan. They were on pace to pay off the entire AT&T Stadium debt in two more years or so, almost half the time that was projected, and so they rolled that loan into the one for the baseball stadium. Of course, past success doesn't guarantee future results, and the impact from adding the Rangers' Stadium + entertainment district may not be as profound as the original football stadium was. But in any case, just providing some additional color and context regarding the situation in Arlington.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 06, 2019, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 04:25:01 PM
There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags.
I bet lots of places would take the beaches. Or the river, for that matter.
Ummm - Knoxville and Chattanooga have the Tennessee River and Greenville has the Reedy River. They don't need the St. Johns. Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.
Knoxville
(https://gardenandgun.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/105629_20161016_FB_Alabama_Knoxville_CB_112.jpg)
Chattanooga
(https://www.visittheusa.com/sites/default/files/styles/hero_m_1300x700/public/images/hero_media_image/2016-10/1%20HERO_1_Chattanooga%20Aerial_Web72DPI.jpg?itok=bbadxQck)
Greenville
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zlC5KqPklAc/maxresdefault.jpg)
Okay - you named three places. But your original quote was, "There is NOTHING in Jax that any other City wants - not even the Jags." You didn't say "There is nothing these three specific cities want". Yes, there are cities with rivers. And cities near beaches. But Jax has a great river and wonderful beaches. People in all sorts of cities would love that. I can tell you that I miss the beaches - and many where I live would love to have easy access to beaches like the ones in Jax. And the climate too, come to think of it.
Jax has lots of problems and shortcomings, yeah. But it's not all bad news.
I based my comment on the fact that I have never heard of any city/business leaders coming to Jax to learn anything. We don't have creative thought leaders that are pioneering anything at the civic level. If you know of any please share.
No one is coming here to see how to replicate our mass transit system, implement their version of our beaming civic monuments, copy our unique park system, reproduce our creatively funded cultural attractions, implement our innovative parking solutions, mimic our complete street/greenway initiatives, marvel in our urban revitalization success stories, and for sure no one is coming here to study riverfront activation - because we don't have any of those things.
The one thing we do have in ample supply is sprawl and there isn't a City in America that needs assistance with sprawl.
Kerry, the grass is always greener....If you move to any of the cities you mentioned, you'll be even more bored than you are now. Other than the college scene in Knoxville, it's a boring place. I went to school east of there and visited my brother many times before he moved to Oregon. Boring. Greenville has made strides, sure, but you can change a small town much easier than a large one. Chattanooga I don't know much about, but other than Lookout Mountain and a few sights, not much there either.
Jacksonville isn't going to change until we change the people and the leadership. We are too conservative and complacent. We have a lot of retired military, people who moved here after WW2 to work in the mills, and a mindset that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. I don't think it will ever change. When we stop electing good ole boy right wing rednecks things will change. To be elected to area office, you just have to have a bad haircut, a promise not to raise taxes, and a "R" after your name. That's the way it is. Until it changes, I'm hanging here. I've chased what you seek and have never found it. I always find my self back in Jax.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 09:04:07 AM
I based my comment on the fact that I have never heard of any city/business leaders coming to Jax to learn anything.
I can tell you for a fact that isn't true.
(edit): It could be true that you haven't heard it. It definitely isn't true that it hasn't happened.
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.
I'd say the folks at Jaxport could find you some examples that would counter this. I hear we have a cargo port here.
Quote from: Steve on August 07, 2019, 09:55:57 AM
Quote from: Kerry on August 06, 2019, 05:14:56 PM
Heck, Jax doesn't even use the St. Johns River for anything and we have it.
I'd say the folks at Jaxport could find you some examples that would counter this. I hear we have a cargo port here.
Quite a few shipyards too...
QuoteI have never heard of any city/business leaders coming to Jax to learn anything.
I can think of one thing, consolidation. That was pretty obvious in decades past, but not so much in recent times. Unfortunately, the way JAX has structured its government, the benefits of Consolidation are largely lost when an ineffective mayor is serving, which has been a lot of the time. Power is highly concentrated and needlessly partisan. The council members are too lazy or too chicken shit to provide any balance. The GC certainly does not provide any independence, balance or auditing.
JAX has a lot to offer from a geographic/climate perspective, and it has decent architecture overall, IMO. Many neighborhoods are quite appealing. But the things that actually require good ideas, good plans, good execution, effective goverance, etc. those things are largely absent.
I have said a million times that JAX has massive potential and always has. It could be the East coast San Diego, but it is standing in it's own way. What is missing is really not rocket science, which makes it all the more frustrating. It doesn't take a broadly elightened population either, as much as it does elighthened leadership.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 09:04:07 AM
I based my comment on the fact that I have never heard of any city/business leaders coming to Jax to learn anything. We don't have creative thought leaders that are pioneering anything at the civic level. If you know of any please share.
No one is coming here to see how to replicate our mass transit system, implement their version of our beaming civic monuments, copy our unique park system, reproduce our creatively funded cultural attractions, implement our innovative parking solutions, mimic our complete street/greenway initiatives, marvel in our urban revitalization success stories, and for sure no one is coming here to study riverfront activation - because we don't have any of those things.
The one thing we do have in ample supply is sprawl and there isn't a City in America that needs assistance with sprawl.
Well, now you're saying something else entirely. Don't take exception with what I posted - it was in response to what you posted. Perhaps you should've been clearer about what you meant?
I've no idea if leaders from other cities visit Jax to get ideas.
Well crud - I wrote an entire long post only to lose it all while looking up one last piece of data. Anyhow, let me summarize.
Jacksonville is no more right wing that Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Omaha, Des Moines, Salt Lake City or dozens and dozens of other cities, so that isn't an excuse. Does our city leadership attend or even have membership in organizations like the US Conference of Mayors or the National League of Cities where all of these topics are discussed and workshops held to help cities figure out solutions? We don't even have proper representation of the Florida League of City (a council member when most cities have their Mayor). What the hell are our Civic Leaders doing with all their time?
As for our port, that isn't even in the realm of this discussion unless they are going to open the ports to picnicking families. We are talking about the public realm here.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 10:51:29 AM
Well crud - I wrote an entire long post only to lose it all while looking up one last piece of data. Anyhow, let me summarize.
Jacksonville is no more right wing that Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Omaha, Des Moines, Salt Lake City or dozens and dozens of other cities, so that isn't an excuse. Does our city leadership attend or even have membership in organizations like the US Conference of Mayors or the National League of Cities where all of these topics are discussed and workshops held to help cities figure out solutions? We don't even have proper representation of the Florida League of City (a council member when most cities have their Mayor). What the hell are our Civic Leaders doing with all their time?
As for our port, that isn't even in the realm of this discussion unless they are going to open the ports to picnicking families. We are talking about the public realm here.
Jacksonville has been suffering from a real lack of leadership - and a complete absence of vision - for a very long time. And we have a cynical poplulation, a population that has seen downtown destroyed and has seen projects (Landing, Skyway, etc) fail. It's always going to be hard to convince people that things actually can be successful.
^That's why it's important to focus on getting the small things right. Make the Skyway the best 2.5 mile transit system that you can before experimenting with untested low capacity AVs. Get one core city block right and activated at night and weekends before coughing up $233 million in incentives, linked to grand promises that ultimately won't be delivered. We've been there before but keep doing the same expensive things and expecting different outcomes.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 07, 2019, 11:21:18 AM
^That's why it's important to focus on getting the small things right. Make the Skyway the best 2.5 mile transit system that you can before experimenting with untested low capacity AVs. Get one core city block right and activated at night and weekends before coughing up $233 million in incentives, linked to grand promises that ultimately won't be delivered. We've been there before but keep doing the same expensive things and expecting different outcomes.
You're preaching to the choir!
Quote from: Adam White on August 07, 2019, 11:23:41 AM
You're preaching to the choir!
That is what this entire forum and website is.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 07, 2019, 11:21:18 AM
^That's why it's important to focus on getting the small things right. Make the Skyway the best 2.5 mile transit system that you can before experimenting with untested low capacity AVs. Get one core city block right and activated at night and weekends before coughing up $233 million in incentives, linked to grand promises that ultimately won't be delivered. We've been there before but keep doing the same expensive things and expecting different outcomes.
We have to start a lot earlier in the process than that. When I met with Vicupstate and Marcus a couple of months ago we looked at where the problem are and discussed some ideas about how to overcome them. It included endorsing candidates, public education, guerrilla urbanism, running for office ourselves, changing the government structure of Jax, good old fashion community activism (speaking at council meetings and other boards), and a host of other activities that I can't recall right off the top of my head.
Jax is starting from worse than last place. We are twenty laps down in a race most people don't even know we are in.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 01:44:14 PM
Jax is starting from worse than last place. We are twenty laps down in a race most people don't even know we are in.
Good lord, dude, are you okay? Jax is no urban metropolis or even a big destination city, but you act as if we're some slumhole rustbelt ghost town with a nuclear waste site in the middle of a leaking toxic waste dump where the children play. What the hell do you want from this world?
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 01:44:14 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 07, 2019, 11:21:18 AM
^That's why it's important to focus on getting the small things right. Make the Skyway the best 2.5 mile transit system that you can before experimenting with untested low capacity AVs. Get one core city block right and activated at night and weekends before coughing up $233 million in incentives, linked to grand promises that ultimately won't be delivered. We've been there before but keep doing the same expensive things and expecting different outcomes.
We have to start a lot earlier in the process than that. When I met with Vicupstate and Marcus a couple of months ago we looked at where the problem are and discussed some ideas about how to overcome them. It included endorsing candidates, public education, guerrilla urbanism, running for office ourselves, changing the government structure of Jax, good old fashion community activism (speaking at council meetings and other boards), and a host of other activities that I can't recall right off the top of my head.
Jax is starting from worse than last place. We are twenty laps down in a race most people don't even know we are in.
IMO, we have to walk and chew gum at the same time, while also understanding in no scenario are we starting from scratch, considering the city has existed for nearly 200 years. Many of the ideas mentioned in your quote have already happened, happening right as we speak and have been for several years. Many of the things that Jax has gotten right, that we enjoy today, are a direct result of these efforts. King Street, the breweries on Main in Springfield, our expanding culinary scene, food trucks, the shared use path across the Fuller Warren, Laura Street's streetscape, etc. are all examples of things like public education, guerrilla urbanism, changing the government structure, good old fashioned community activism, etc. Tap deeper into the local scene. There are a ton of people working to enhance the city's quality of life right now. Nevertheless, we don't need to do all of that before getting JTA to do something basic like operate the Skyway on weekends or convincing the DIA to make it a priority to work with property owners to enhance and better expose existing street level retail.
Perfect example of good old fashion community activism happening right here:
Quote from: Steve on August 07, 2019, 02:16:23 PM
At the DIA meeting now. Wasn't thrilled about being the first speaker, but let's see how it goes. So far 5 speakers, all in favor of Johnson.
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35511.msg494632.html#msg494632
It's a never ending dilemma. Downtown is never going to change until opposing sides change. On one side there are people waiting for downtown residents before they open businesses like restaurants, bars, retail, etc. On the other hand there are people who are waiting for others to build and open those things. What we lack is the leadership at the mayor's office and council to bring this standoff to a good result. It'll never happen by tearing town the courthouse, the landing, and making the area look like Dresden in '45. Go to the polls and change things.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on August 07, 2019, 02:14:35 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 01:44:14 PM
Jax is starting from worse than last place. We are twenty laps down in a race most people don't even know we are in.
Good lord, dude, are you okay? Jax is no urban metropolis or even a big destination city, but you act as if we're some slumhole rustbelt ghost town with a nuclear waste site in the middle of a leaking toxic waste dump where the children play. What the hell do you want from this world?
We do have that - it is called the Shipyards and Khan and Co think people want to live next door to it.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/06/study-shipyards-site-contaminated-beyond.html
QuoteMuch of the contamination is to be expected. The Shipyards was previously used for industrial purposes, which exposed it to chemicals like lead and arsenic. The contamination is, however, beyond what officials were expecting.
Quote from: Snaketoz on August 07, 2019, 02:46:33 PM
It's a never ending dilemma. Downtown is never going to change until opposing sides change. On one side there are people waiting for downtown residents before they open businesses like restaurants, bars, retail, etc. On the other hand there are people who are waiting for others to build and open those things.
And the reality and real solution is in the middle. We already have businesses and new projects coming online. We aren't starting from scratch. We have to do the little things to maximize what we already have. Focus on a block where you have a mix of existing businesses, proposed development and vacant storefronts. Enhance the public realm between them and program the hell out of it. Doing that gives you a beginning viable environment to build from. It really is that simple.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 03:15:12 PM
We do have that - it is called the Shipyards and Khan and Co think people want to live next door to it.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2015/06/study-shipyards-site-contaminated-beyond.html
QuoteMuch of the contamination is to be expected. The Shipyards was previously used for industrial purposes, which exposed it to chemicals like lead and arsenic. The contamination is, however, beyond what officials were expecting.
Holy cow I wrote out the most hyperbolic hellhole I possibly could and you still manage to find a way to mold it to fit your view of this city.
We have a contaminated site that developers want to, and have previously, built on top of. It will take cleanup, but it's not even a superfund site. It's really easy to shit on everything, but I don't need to tell you that, you're the king of it on this site.
Okay, so let's say we start with what we have. Pick the area we should start with. Where is it and how do we activate it?
Here is a suggestion I made in another thread the other day. Laura between the Landing and Hemming or Adams between the courthouse and Main (with serious focus on the block between Hogan and Laura):
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,35808.msg494492.html#msg494492
I need to make a graphic showing the location of current projects, but there's more currently happening in this 5-minute walk radius right now, then what we'll get after giving away $233 million in incentives at Lot J.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 04:05:46 PM
Okay, so let's say we start with what we have. Pick the area we should start with. Where is it and how do we activate it?
The block bounded by Bay/Forsyth/Newnan/Ocean. It already ties into the Elbow district and isn't too far from a lot of other retail/entertainment/food & drink destinations downtown. Get those silly little AV's to run between the Skyway Station and the Stadium, helping to further activate Bay St between the two. Open up the annex parking garage to hourly users so that suburbanites can get there and park. Get rid of the sign ordinance so that people can actually see where the heck businesses are.
If people don't know what's there, and it's a pain to get there, people won't come. Make it easier to get there (via transit or parking) and make it easier to find things they like (by allowing signage on the exterior of buildings) and people will be drawn in. Even despite those setbacks people (like myself) still make their way to that block and others nearby because there's actually some cool places to go around there.
Much has changed for the positive since I lived here in 1989. DT is much better today with restaurants, housing and soon more hotels. The growth may be haphazard and slow but it is growth. I believe things like FIS adding 500 people (although not in the core), Vystar, and The Barnett increases demand for DT housing. Many of these new employees are young and will want to live in DT or Brooklyn or Lavilla. Interst by local companies to move DT is increasing. Hope rental rates reach over $2/sq. ft. and that can spur more mid rise housing. As the Lake says lets get Laura street energized and see what happens next. Try to be positive.
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 09:04:07 AM
No one is coming here to see how to replicate our mass transit system,
Actually when the JTA did its bus route optimization 2 or 3 years ago, supposedly it was so successful that other cities came to study it. I know...broken clock twice a day...but just saying.
Quote from: Peter Griffin on August 07, 2019, 04:44:26 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 04:05:46 PM
Okay, so let's say we start with what we have. Pick the area we should start with. Where is it and how do we activate it?
The block bounded by Bay/Forsyth/Newnan/Ocean
Quote from: thelakelander on August 07, 2019, 04:25:15 PM
Here is a suggestion I made in another thread the other day. Laura between the Landing and Hemming or Adams between the courthouse and Main (with serious focus on the block between Hogan and Laura):
I'm good with either one. I get off work about 5PM today. Who wants to go downtown with me and start activating these areas? Do we just stop at Home Depot to pick up some Hourly Parking signs?
Quote from: Kerry on August 08, 2019, 07:52:22 AM
Quote from: Peter Griffin on August 07, 2019, 04:44:26 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 07, 2019, 04:05:46 PM
Okay, so let's say we start with what we have. Pick the area we should start with. Where is it and how do we activate it?
The block bounded by Bay/Forsyth/Newnan/Ocean
Quote from: thelakelander on August 07, 2019, 04:25:15 PM
Here is a suggestion I made in another thread the other day. Laura between the Landing and Hemming or Adams between the courthouse and Main (with serious focus on the block between Hogan and Laura):
I'm good with either one. I get off work about 5PM today. Who wants to go downtown with me and start activating these areas?
(https://media.giphy.com/media/1ylcwkyEah9e0kSWvG/source.mp4)
This project leaves me in a weird place. I'm not upset by it, I'm just starved for some new activity on making this city become more alive. I'm waiting and hoping for that one thing to spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen. While i look forward for some positive outcome on this project, I am heart broken about The Landing, just don't get it!
Quote from: Seraphs on August 08, 2019, 09:20:51 PM
This project leaves me in a weird place. I'm not upset by it, I'm just starved for some new activity on making this city become more alive. I'm waiting and hoping for that one thing to spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen.
It won't spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen. However, it will be a new Landing next to the stadium, which should improve the game day experience.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 08, 2019, 11:01:48 PM
Quote from: Seraphs on August 08, 2019, 09:20:51 PM
This project leaves me in a weird place. I'm not upset by it, I'm just starved for some new activity on making this city become more alive. I'm waiting and hoping for that one thing to spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen.
It won't spark a development unlike anything we've ever seen. However, it will be a new Landing next to the stadium, which should improve the game day experience.
You wanna see something downright weird?
The Jacksonville Live! aspect of this project will be the big selling point of this project to the public.
Curry toured multiple Cordish developments, including Ballpark Village in St. Louis, the Power & Light District in Kansas City, and Powerplant Live! in Baltimore before Lot J discussions ensued.
The project is being sold as Jacksonville's version of the above properties, and compared to Cordish's Texas Live! and Xfinity Live! in Philadelphia.
But check out the property sizes.
Phase 1 of Ballpark Village (the entertainment district) is 2.13 acres.
(https://snag.gy/9eAsY8.jpg)
KC Live! (the Cordish entertainment complex) is 3.11 acres.
(https://snag.gy/Ni1jMT.jpg)
Xfinity Live! in Philiadelphia is 2.34 acres.
(https://snag.gy/dz4QCA.jpg)
Texas Live! is 3.66 acres.
(https://snag.gy/ISlq3C.jpg)
Powerplant Live in Baltimore is 3.54 acres.
(https://snag.gy/EVF9sL.jpg)
So, take a look at the site plan that the Jags and Cordish have released:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/238405_standard.jpeg)
And look at how much space is dedicated to the Cordish Live! complex that the city is ponying up $50 million for to be our new comparable "entertainment district."
(https://snag.gy/obvxlN.jpg)
What???
An acre is generous, considering the shape of the complex.
This is legimately 45% the size of the SMALLEST Live! development that Cordish has developed.
Unless the rest of the development is loaded with ground level entertainment uses (the JEA proposal had zero), or it's obscenely vertical compared to other Cordish developments, I'm not entirely sure how our "entertainment district" consists of much more than maybe two restaurants and two bars.
Not that it will make much difference in your comparison, I think you shortchanged the Live! size. From the site plan, it looks like it is about half the parking lot (along the N-S axis); the sketched area looks to be a little smaller.
But, yeah, ours is dinky in comparison.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 10, 2019, 09:40:27 PM
Not that it will make much difference in your comparison, I think you shortchanged the Live! size. From the site plan, it looks like it is about half the parking lot (along the N-S axis); the sketched area looks to be a little smaller.
But, yeah, ours is dinky in comparison.
Here's the site plan overlayed on top of the aerial, lined up by street alignment and the positioning of the stadium and Daily's Place.
If I shortchanged, it's by less than a tenth of an acre, which still leaves it at less than half the size of any comparable Cordish entertainment complex.
(https://snag.gy/xK1tUH.jpg)
I mean, check out the scale of this "arena and mall" (#4) compared to to even the boutique hotel (#1 in the picture):
(https://snag.gy/k5Yf98.jpg)
We all joke that Lot J is the new Landing, but if you just look at the Landing courtyard and the restaurants surrounding it (excluding the retail mall), it's roughly two to three times bigger than what the Jags are proposing for entertainment at Lot J. The entire Live! complex is less than half the size of Hemming Park.
At an ask of $230 millon (+ the land thrown in for free).
With ZERO apologies for the exhausted, worked 80 hours this week, unfinished/half-assed Photoshop, at the very least, how about killing the office component, doubling the size of the Live! complex, and moving it to face the St. Johns/Bay Street instead of being hidden from it:
(https://snag.gy/QFYMGS.jpg)
cool. Thanks for the feedback. We are Jacksonville! We think small!
^Hopefully I'm wrong.
It's just legitimately insane to me that we shot down $12 million in incentives to refurbish the Landing, yet are considering spending TWENTY TIMES more money to build a replacement one quarter the size.
Live!, all of Lot J for that matter, make no sense from a public subsidy perspective if this is being done in the name of downtown revitalization. It's a mile and half away from the real downtown. If you add up the employees, square footage, etc. of the few major projects within three blocks of Hemming Park (Hyatt Place, Barnett, Trio, VyStar, Ambassador, JEA, Jones Brothers, etc.), you have more coming now (dab smack in the middle of downtown) than what Lot J will be at buildout, for a fraction of the public subsidies. So I don't understand how this is transformational for downtown development and the actual stuff in downtown is not. I'm also not sure I understand why we'd want to own another Landing next to the stadium when that same situation was seen as a major liability for the city at the present centralized site.
Now, if the argument for $233 million in incentives (lion's share of that being hard cash) is that the Jags need this to be viable in Jax, then that's a separate discussion altogether.
^Feels like a hail mary legacy grab from a second-term mayor who's promised to transform downtown between the old Courthouse site and the stadium, only to see the Berkman fizzle out, the convention center disappear, the Navy take the USS Adams back, the Doro District put on ice, etc. And now, the clock is ticking and we're trying to rush this thing through so construction can start in January during the off-season while the Hart Bridge ramps are being removed and hopefully be vertical by the end of his run.
One other thing that stands out to me from the renderings is the configuration of the Live! complex. I've always wondered why it wasn't fronting Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd and looking out toward the St. Johns River. This seems like the obvious place to put it to maximize visibility. But if you look at the sketch, the Live! venue is opening toward the same stadium concourse that Daily's Place uses on event days for concessions. Due to the very small footprint, it makes me wonder if the restaurants and bars that typically surround a Cordish Live! venue will instead be offloaded to the concession stands and Bud Zone at the stadium.
I could see this just being the typical Cordish large sports bar, with little else compared to other Cordish Live! venues. And then on concert days, the sports bar is transformed into the Live! arena and the stadium concession stands are opened up.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/252737_standard.jpeg?itok=wi2xZbGI)
Again, hope I'm wrong, but if you look at the aerials that I posted above of venues like KC Live!, Power Plant Live!, and Ballpark Village, you can see the Live Arena in the center of the complex, with lots of restaurant and entertainment space surrounding it. If you look at what the Jags are proposing, it's basically just the Live Arena! itself without all that other development surrounding it.
If this thing happens and the city ponies up $230 million, I just wonder if we're going to even get a true Cordish entertainment complex, or if we're just going to get a 2,000-ish capacity arena doubling as a sports bar that the Jags can ticket and then siphon visitors to the stadium for food and beverages.
It's kind of telling that all the renders refer to that quadrant as the "Live! Arena" rather than Live! entertainment complex.
The density and surrounding context in those other cities makes those sites a situation where everyday use is easily viable. This Live! won't be as large as those unless we simply want a center with mostly vacant spaces.
The reason all this costs so much while only being a fraction of the size is because this isn't designed to be a successful entertainment venue. It is designed to transfer city dollars directly to the Jags and improve game day revenue also directly benefiting the Jags. No one gives a crap beyond the 7 home games. It is an 'approve this or Jags move' project. Simple as that.
Crazy how much money the Jags have cost the city. They do not bring any prestige to Jacksonville and at this point the city would be far, far better off without them. Forbes ranks the Jags 25th on their list of NFL tea valuations... and even that is just for the team owners. The city gets nothing out of them other than some occasional charity work.
It would make so much more sense to make sure the schools are funded and to not tear down the Landing for the sake of another park than to blow a quarter of a billion dollars on a consistently losing football team. People from outside looking in would truly wonder what the hell is going on down there.
Quote from: Bativac on August 11, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
Crazy how much money the Jags have cost the city. They do not bring any prestige to Jacksonville and at this point the city would be far, far better off without them. Forbes ranks the Jags 25th on their list of NFL tea valuations... and even that is just for the team owners. The city gets nothing out of them other than some occasional charity work.
It would make so much more sense to make sure the schools are funded and to not tear down the Landing for the sake of another park than to blow a quarter of a billion dollars on a consistently losing football team. People from outside looking in would truly wonder what the hell is going on down there.
When the Jags franchise was awarded to Jax it was supposed to usher in an era of growth and prosperity. The NFL was going to put Jacksonville on the global map and visitors and corporations would be rushing into Jax and spend so much money that the City's investment would be repayed many times over.
It never happened. Instead, here we are 20 years later still bailing the team out, spending millions on stadium swimming pools and the world's largest video boards (that were only the largest for about 10 months), and the financial windfall has only been a money pit. The only entity that made any money were the players and team owners.
Not only should we cut the Jags loose but we should sue the NFL to get the money back.
Quote from: Kerry on August 11, 2019, 10:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bativac on August 11, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
Crazy how much money the Jags have cost the city. They do not bring any prestige to Jacksonville and at this point the city would be far, far better off without them. Forbes ranks the Jags 25th on their list of NFL tea valuations... and even that is just for the team owners. The city gets nothing out of them other than some occasional charity work.
It would make so much more sense to make sure the schools are funded and to not tear down the Landing for the sake of another park than to blow a quarter of a billion dollars on a consistently losing football team. People from outside looking in would truly wonder what the hell is going on down there.
When the Jags franchise was awarded to Jax it was supposed to usher in an era of growth and prosperity. The NFL was going to put Jacksonville on the global map and visitors and corporations would be rushing into Jax and spend so much money that the City's investment would be repayed many times over.
It never happened. Instead, here we are 20 years later still bailing the team out, spending millions on stadium swimming pools and the world's largest video boards (that were only the largest for about 10 months), and the financial windfall has only been a money pit. The only entity that made any money were the players and team owners.
Not only should we cut the Jags loose but we should sue the NFL to get the money back.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Kerry; but Jacksonville, and downtown in particular are already "in the pits" so to speak; can you imagine Jacksonville without the Jags? It would be even worse...believe me, and I know that you would agree. I guess it's damn if you do and damn if you don't, maybe, for our leaders (I guess, it's hard to guage exactly what they are thinking or where they are coming from). Time will tell. But trust me, if the Jags leave, the void left will be even bigger, deeper, and darker.
Quote from: heights unknown on August 12, 2019, 05:40:47 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 11, 2019, 10:15:34 PM
Quote from: Bativac on August 11, 2019, 07:17:05 PM
Crazy how much money the Jags have cost the city. They do not bring any prestige to Jacksonville and at this point the city would be far, far better off without them. Forbes ranks the Jags 25th on their list of NFL tea valuations... and even that is just for the team owners. The city gets nothing out of them other than some occasional charity work.
It would make so much more sense to make sure the schools are funded and to not tear down the Landing for the sake of another park than to blow a quarter of a billion dollars on a consistently losing football team. People from outside looking in would truly wonder what the hell is going on down there.
When the Jags franchise was awarded to Jax it was supposed to usher in an era of growth and prosperity. The NFL was going to put Jacksonville on the global map and visitors and corporations would be rushing into Jax and spend so much money that the City's investment would be repayed many times over.
It never happened. Instead, here we are 20 years later still bailing the team out, spending millions on stadium swimming pools and the world's largest video boards (that were only the largest for about 10 months), and the financial windfall has only been a money pit. The only entity that made any money were the players and team owners.
Not only should we cut the Jags loose but we should sue the NFL to get the money back.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Kerry; but Jacksonville, and downtown in particular are already "in the pits" so to speak; can you imagine Jacksonville without the Jags? It would be even worse...believe me, and I know that you would agree. I guess it's damn if you do and damn if you don't, maybe, for our leaders (I guess, it's hard to guage exactly what they are thinking or where they are coming from). Time will tell. But trust me, if the Jags leave, the void left will be even bigger, deeper, and darker.
I disagree with your agreement - lol. Jax (like every other revitalized city) is going to have to hit rock bottom first. The Jags just delayed rock bottom and made the hole even deeper. We are nowhere near rock bottom but if Curry could have a 3rd term we could probably reach it soon. I don't know if Jax would have committed the same funds to urban revitalization as it has to the Jags but even if it was 1/2 as much it would have been money much better spent. Now we are being held hostage. If the Jags leave every penny spent on them would have been for nothing, but we also can't continue to pay them forever. For many cities, Jax included, pro-sports is a progress trap. They promise to be a catalyst for growth but only deliver debt while sucking up every available corporate dollar.
BTW - awhile back I speculated that having the Jags was actually costing us numerous events that could be held at the stadium. I don't know the specific events but Oklahoma City is considering an 18,000 seat downtown stadium and they estimate it will host 80 events per year. Yes that is significantly smaller than TIAAF Bank Field but there is a big difference between 80 events and the 10 or so here.
Did some asking around.
For what it's worth, the city has been told the Live! facility will be 70,000 square feet across multiple levels.
70,000 square feet of leasable space or total? In both cases, much smaller than the Landing but significantly higher in costs.
^70k total, inclusive of the Live! Arena.
QuoteThe City will provide 50% of the cost of the development of the Live! District, up to a maximum of $50M. If the City's 50% of the Live! District is less than $50M, the balance shall be reallocated at the Developer's discretion to other portions of the Project.
Unless this thing is made of 100% marble, there's not a 70,000 sq ft building in the world that will cost $100M. This will end up being at least 30M that the developer can use to fund whatever use they want, depending on market demands. Lot J is going to have 6 self storage facilities, a small entertainment venue that closes after 5 years, and maybe a car wash.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 13, 2019, 09:09:04 AM
QuoteThe City will provide 50% of the cost of the development of the Live! District, up to a maximum of $50M. If the City's 50% of the Live! District is less than $50M, the balance shall be reallocated at the Developer's discretion to other portions of the Project.
Unless this thing is made of 100% marble, there's not a 70,000 sq ft building in the world that will cost $100M. This will end up being at least 30M that the developer can use to fund whatever use they want, depending on market demands. Lot J is going to have 6 self storage facilities, a small entertainment venue that closes after 5 years, and maybe a car wash.
Yeah, the math never made sense. Obviously the apartment and office buildings will be subsidized with the excess funds for Live! That way they will either make uber profits or will be able to charge mid-rise rents for high-rise buildings.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 13, 2019, 08:24:09 AM
70,000 square feet of leasable space or total? In both cases, much smaller than the Landing but significantly higher in costs.
About the size of Prime Osborne Convention center?
Quote from: vicupstate on August 13, 2019, 01:30:30 PMYeah, the math never made sense. Obviously the apartment and office buildings will be subsidized with the excess funds for Live! That way they will either make uber profits or will be able to charge mid-rise rents for high-rise buildings.
Looking at other Cordish developments, the numbers don't seem insanely outlandish to me.
Xfinity Live! in Philly's first phase was around 80,000 square feet, at $150 million.
Ballpark Village's first phase was $100 million (in 2013 dollars) for 100,000 square feet.
It actually looks like the numbers for Lot J are nearly identical to the numbers for BallPark Village.
Phase I of ballpark village (the Live! complex + Cardinals Hame of Fame) was $100 million.
Phase II (200 room hotel (same as Lot J), 300 unit luxury apartment (same as Lot J), 117,000 sf office tower (same as Lot J)) was $260 million.
That's $360 million for the actual development, plus the $90 million in infrastructure that the Jags are asking from the city, which puts us right at $450 million.
If you want a realistic idea as to what Jacksonville would get for its $230 milion public contribution, Ballpark Village (the first two phases) is probably the closest comparable example we've got:
Phase 1 - https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/ballpark/ballpark-village/phase-1
Phase 2 - https://www.mlb.com/cardinals/ballpark/ballpark-village/phase-2
Notably absent from the Jags plan is the cool public space that typically centers these Cordish sports developments (the baseball diamond at Ballpark Village, mini football field at Xfinity Live!, etc.
Looks like the central area would be closer to Texas Live:
(http://res.cloudinary.com/culturemap-com/image/upload/ar_4:3,c_fill,g_faces:center,w_1200/v1494871804/photos/236084_original.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/4yYEAc.jpg)
Also, Mike, I got a chance to listen to you on the radio this morning as I was driving into work.
I thought you did a
fantastic job talking fairly about the Jags, their relationship with the city, and this project in particular without taking the bait on the either-or Landing/Shad Khan argument.
I also thought you made a really, really great point about the city's actual spend on the Jags over the previous 25 years compared to other markets.
Had to jump off halfway through, is there a replay available?
(https://media.bizj.us/view/img/10723973/screen-shot-2017-12-06-at-122310-pm*750xx2283-1284-37-0.png)
Yesterday, I reviewed roadway modifications and typical sections for US 441 and SR 438 in the proposed Packing House District in Orlando. The estimated cost for this 202-acre project is $480 million. So for $30 million more, that project adds 3,500 multifamily residential units, a 105-acre regional park (including a 40-acre urban farm) and one million square feet of retail and office space (including a food hall) to College Park (a neighborhood that is similar to Murray Hill to me). It really feels like John Q. Taxpayer in Jax is getting the short end of the redevelopment stick for the amount of money being requested.
(https://powersearch.jll.com/res/btp/images/h_600,c_fill,g_auto/v1564762710/prod/listing/images/cover_aerial_rendering_small_b4ys71/packing-district.jpg)
https://packingdistrictorlando.com/
$1,428 a SF seems high to me. Especially when the land cost is free and no infrastructure cost either.
A project here in Greenville under construction now is 140 room Hotel, 217 apartments, 80,000 SF retail, 150,000 SF Office, 18 Condominums, large plaza, and 630 spaces of below grade parking. The land alone was over $13 mm. It is a $200 mm project.
Another interesting comparison. Ryals Creek PUD on the southside is the retail, multi-family, entertainment and hotel district at the new Skinners development. The size is 67 acres. Infrastructure costs estimated at $98,000,000.
Lot J is 6 acres (?) and costs was estimated at 93,000,000. This just shows what the integrated structure parking for the office, hotel and apartments is costing the city taxpayers. Why should the city be on the hook for these costs. This is more subsidy to the developer that benefits mainly there developments.
Also I don't like the bait and switch on the hotel and apartments. If we are going to spend $200+million then I don't want a five story Hilton Hotel and 2-3 low rise apartment buildings. $92,000,000 for that is not right.
Compensation should be structured based on what is eventually built.
When my oldest son was little all he would eat is chicken fingers and hot dogs. It took me a couple of months to realize that he only ate chicken finges and hot dogs because he could cover them in ketchup. What he really wanted was the ketchup and the chicken fingers and hot dogs were just the delivery vehicle.
Lot J is the hot dog. Access to the free flow of cash is what the Jags want. Shipyards will be the chicken fingers. If all the money was spent on the physical construction like in the Orlando and Greenville examples there is no ketchup money left.
And comparing costs to other Cordish Live projects is laughable. Those cities signed off on the same crappy deal as this one.
Quote from: Kerry on August 13, 2019, 03:49:23 PM
When my oldest son was little all he would eat is chicken fingers and hot dogs. It took me a couple of months to realize that he only ate chicken finges and hot dogs because he could cover them in ketchup. What he really wanted was the ketchup and the chicken fingers and hot dogs were just the delivery vehicle.
Lot J is the hot dog. Access to the free flow of cash is what the Jags want. Shipyards will be the chicken fingers. If all the money was spent on the physical construction like in the Orlando and Greenville examples there is no ketchup money left.
And comparing costs to other Cordish Live projects is laughable. Those cities signed off on the same crappy deal as this one.
Well, they (the Jaguars) are a business and it makes sense that they will want to look into ways to make more money and make the franchise more valuable. I guess, in an "ideal" world (not ideal for me, but for most), the Jaguars and the city would strike a deal whereby they split the cost in a reasonable way and get something mutually-beneficial out of it. What concerns me about this deal is a) I don't think the financial burden shouldered by the city could be considered "reasonable" by any stretch and b) I don't think the development will be very beneficial to the city, because it isn't integrated with the city center.
I can't say I blame the Jaguars for trying though.
Quote from: jaxjags on August 13, 2019, 03:44:20 PMThis just shows what the integrated structure parking for the office, hotel and apartments is costing the city taxpayers.
$45 million is the ask for structured parking.
Quote from: Adam White on August 13, 2019, 04:00:48 PM
Quote from: Kerry on August 13, 2019, 03:49:23 PM
When my oldest son was little all he would eat is chicken fingers and hot dogs. It took me a couple of months to realize that he only ate chicken finges and hot dogs because he could cover them in ketchup. What he really wanted was the ketchup and the chicken fingers and hot dogs were just the delivery vehicle.
Lot J is the hot dog. Access to the free flow of cash is what the Jags want. Shipyards will be the chicken fingers. If all the money was spent on the physical construction like in the Orlando and Greenville examples there is no ketchup money left.
And comparing costs to other Cordish Live projects is laughable. Those cities signed off on the same crappy deal as this one.
Well, they (the Jaguars) are a business and it makes sense that they will want to look into ways to make more money and make the franchise more valuable. I guess, in an "ideal" world (not ideal for me, but for most), the Jaguars and the city would strike a deal whereby they split the cost in a reasonable way and get something mutually-beneficial out of it. What concerns me about this deal is a) I don't think the financial burden shouldered by the city could be considered "reasonable" by any stretch and b) I don't think the development will be very beneficial to the city, because it isn't integrated with the city center.
I can't say I blame the Jaguars for trying though.
I do blame them. They should have been laughed out of the office but the scary part is - THIS is the negotiated deal. I would love to see how tone-deaf and ass-backwards their initial proposal was. They probably wanted Jax to pay for everything.
Quote from: Adam White on August 13, 2019, 04:00:48 PMWhat concerns me about this deal is a) I don't think the financial burden shouldered by the city could be considered "reasonable" by any stretch and b) I don't think the development will be very beneficial to the city, because it isn't integrated with the city center.
I can't say I blame the Jaguars for trying though.
To me, it all comes back to transparency, goals, and opportunity cost.
I actually disagree with you and think that, in a vacuum, Lot J is a pretty cool project that will be a net positive for the city.
I don't think Lot J competes with other businesses in the CBD for the same reason I don't think Lot J helps the CBD either - it's a mile away. We have literally 400+ events per year in the sports complex between TIAA Bank Field, VyStar Arena, the Baseball Grounds, and Daily's Place, and I absolutely think that having additional retail and restaurants in the sports complex would give people a place to go before and after games instead of rushing home.
I also think that having a hotel within short walking distance of the sports complex and entertainment options will bring net new visitors and bed taxes to Jacksonville for Jags games, and will encourage additional people traveling in for concerts and events from out of town to stay in Jacksonville and make a night of it.
Lot J and the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps should encourage development of Met Park or the Shipyards, whether by the Jaguars or someone else.
Lot J provides another revenue source for the Jaguars, shows willingness to play ball on our end as we close in on 10 years left on the stadium lease, and further vests the team's interests in Jacksonville.
It also gets about 4.5 of the 6 acres onto the tax rolls, with relatively (for Jacksonville, at least) low REV committments in the future.
Even at $230 million plus any hidden costs (how will this cannabilize concession revenues within our venues, for example, that the city often gets to keep?), an argument could at least be made (which I'm not making one way or the other) that the project makes sense and is a good investment for the city.
That said, the mayor's office isn't positioning this as a project to bring more visitors to the sports complex, provide a spark for Met Park/the Shipyards, draw in additional events and hotel guests, stabilize the Jaguars in Jacksonville, etc.
He's positioning it as the magic bullet that will finally catalyze downtown Jacksonville, driving development straight down Bay Street and solving all of downtown's woes.
This is patently absurd.
I think this is a much different, much more honest conversation if it's positioned as the former, rather than the latter.
It allows us to debate, as a city, what our highest priority is as this economic cycle winds down and responsibly decide how to best spend our discretionary capital investment dollars in a way that helps us achieve that goal.
Is the goal finally making something happen at the Shipyards/Lot J, working with the Jags, and trying to kick stadium talks down the road for another ten years with a lease extension? If that's our goal as a city, then Lot J isn't the worst idea.
But if the goal is revitalizing downtown Jacksonville, to the extent that the mayor's office has put projects at the Landing and a convention center on hold to focus on Lot J, then there are clearly much better ways to spend our money.
Just doesn't feel like we're having an honest debate about the purpose of this investment, and it's crazy that the Landing site is being mothballed for years while we focus on a project that shouldn't even be viewed in the same category in terms of downtown revitalization.
There's an interesting idea in a couple of these posts.
Tie the quarter-billion in funding to a 10 year lease extension.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 13, 2019, 05:49:29 PM
There's an interesting idea in a couple of these posts.
Tie the quarter-billion in funding to a 10 year lease extension.
Personally, I love the idea.
Unfortunately, I think it's going to be more of a case of:
1) Play nice on Lot J, and the Jags
only request $100-$200 million in stadium upgrades (specifically a roof) in exchange for a 10-year extension.
2) Don't play nice on Lot J, and the Jags start beating the drum for a new stadium early to make up for that lost revenue from Lot J.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on August 13, 2019, 06:14:29 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 13, 2019, 05:49:29 PM
There's an interesting idea in a couple of these posts.
Tie the quarter-billion in funding to a 10 year lease extension.
Personally, I love the idea.
Unfortunately, I think it's going to be more of a case of:
1) Play nice on Lot J, and the Jags only request $100-$200 million in stadium upgrades (specifically a roof) in exchange for a 10-year extension.
2) Don't play nice on Lot J, and the Jags start beating the drum for a new stadium early to make up for that lost revenue from Lot J.
If they build the new stadium in St Johns County I would be all for it. That makes me giddy just thinking about it. It would be a circus.
Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.
Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.
^There's more going on in Downtown right now than the Sports Complex. That story will remain the same even if we do provide $233.3 million in incentives for the hope of seeing a 200 room hotel, 300 apartments, 120,000 square feet of new office space and a smaller, modern version of the Landing all materialize a mile down the street, ten years from now.
Why? Because for $18.5 million in incentives, the combination of the ten projects below, (half of which are already underway) within a five minute walk of Hemming Park, will bring 400 hotel rooms, 340 apartments, 221,000 square feet of new office space, 375,000 square feet of adaptive reuse office space, 55,000 square feet of ground floor retail, three rooftop restaurant/bars, five ground floor restaurants, an underground speakeasy and an urban bodega to the actual downtown core.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Hemming-14-Mile-Walk-Radius/i-zxSvHfG/0/05e48b68/X3/Jacksonville-Chamber-1000%20Feet%20-%20Developments-X3.jpg)
Opinions about barbells and hopes of something at the stadium being the game changer to transform a district a mile down the street are fine. Yet, when we start looking at the numbers and development timelines, you really begin to see how silly and wasteful all of this "gamechanger" nonsense is.
Quote from: minder on August 19, 2019, 07:49:45 PM
Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.
Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.
Is $233 million in incentives for the sports complex "organic" in any way? There is nothing about the hundreds of millions of dollars proposed in public money between this plan, Daily's Place, the Hart Expressway, etc. Brooklyn has certainly been organic.
Quote from: minder on August 19, 2019, 07:49:45 PM
Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.
Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.
That's like putting all your focus on the branches of a plant and ignoring the roots.....if you want to get organic about it.
Quote from: FlaBoy on August 19, 2019, 11:25:01 PM
Quote from: minder on August 19, 2019, 07:49:45 PM
Again on here the obsession with anything within a stone's throw of the Bank of America Tower. I've no idea why people keep pigeon holing the growth of the city in this small area as if it's the be all.
Face it folks, the landing is dead, and with or without it, there's empty storefronts and failed businesses all over the centre of downtown. The focus is on Brooklyn and the Sports Complex and the best way forward now is for Downtown to organically grow as a result in the middle.
Is $233 million in incentives for the sports complex "organic" in any way? There is nothing about the hundreds of millions of dollars proposed in public money between this plan, Daily's Place, the Hart Expressway, etc. Brooklyn has certainly been organic.
Well, dollar bills are made out of paper or something similar which is organic (more or less). I guess.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 19, 2019, 08:08:51 PM
^There's more going on in Downtown right now than the Sports Complex. That story will remain the same even if we do provide $233.3 million in incentives for the hope of seeing a 200 room hotel, 300 apartments, 120,000 square feet of new office space and a smaller, modern version of the Landing all materialize a mile down the street, ten years from now.
Why? Because for $18.5 million in incentives, the combination of the ten projects below, (half of which are already underway) within a five minute walk of Hemming Park, will bring 400 hotel rooms, 340 apartments, 221,000 square feet of new office space, 375,000 square feet of adaptive reuse office space, 55,000 square feet of ground floor retail, three rooftop restaurant/bars, five ground floor restaurants, an underground speakeasy and an urban bodega to the actual downtown core.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Hemming-14-Mile-Walk-Radius/i-zxSvHfG/0/05e48b68/X3/Jacksonville-Chamber-1000%20Feet%20-%20Developments-X3.jpg)
Opinions about barbells and hopes of something at the stadium being the game changer to transform a district a mile down the street are fine. Yet, when we start looking at the numbers and development timelines, you really begin to see how silly and wasteful all of this "gamechanger" nonsense is.
I get it Lakelander, and thank you very much for iterating this "much more" so that even I now clearly see with both eyes wide open. Just wish we had new projects online to plug up those empty lots that would add more density. When I have posts and news clips pop up on my comp about Tampa and the numerous projects (most new) that are now popping up (under construction) and proposed (with a very near future timeline) it makes me sick relative to what's going on in Jax; and, Jax will always be my city and my hometown though I now live in Sarasota. Sarasota, with an illusory population of 60,000 (it's much more than that...most areas are unannexed), is popping hard with new construction and mid-sized skysrapers (150 to 250 feet). I will be moving back to Jax very soon to close out the rest of my days. I love Jax, and always will; but I just wish those idiots in government and leadership would quit playing games and get it together!
Quote from: heights unknown on August 21, 2019, 02:21:42 PM
Just wish we had new projects online to plug up those empty lots that would add more density.
If there were a coordinated plan built on successful, tried and true redevelopment strategies, the empty and underutilized buildings and spaces would be considered the catalytic sites in need of activation.
I'm not done with that map. I still need to add additional colors for underutilized buildings, surface parking lots and city-owned properties (most of these are also underutilized at ground level). They both present opportunities for activating the street and building an environment that stimulates density.
I'm not a fan of neither. The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta. And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.
The Lot J stuff stinks to high heaven. But I wouldn't give a blessing to just any ol' project downtown, either. The dollar amounts aren't as high but a lot of them are pretty small.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 21, 2019, 05:14:17 PM
I'm not a fan of neither. The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta. And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.
The Lot J stuff stinks to high heaven. But I wouldn't give a blessing to just any ol' project downtown, either. The dollar amounts aren't as high but a lot of them are pretty small.
The public money given to the Jags for Lot J is bordering on bribery to keep the team, but as you said, those projects are nothing on the radar of Lot J. Lot J might be a rip-off, but its a huge project and a different direction for the city, its a direction which cities all round the country are taking with sports/event anchored districts, and its not failing thus far. The projects further DT are chicken feed by comparison. Building renovations, new businesses replacing failed ones, small time projects. This is brand new major construction.
In no world of common sense does spending $233 million in public funds to subsidize a small hotel, what will amount to a stick frame apartment complex, an office building (maybe) and a smaller Landing equate to being a fruitful investment. Such an incentive package should be ripped apart and analyzed by council 10 times more than the stance they've taken with the school board. That's a ton of money that could be used investing in neighborhoods all over the city to a greater benefit for taxpayers. My comment isn't to say attempts to development around the stadium should not be taken. However, investing $233 million should result in something transformational. Right now, what's proposed for the ask is well short of that.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 21, 2019, 05:14:17 PM
I'm not a fan of neither. The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta. And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.
The Lot J stuff stinks to high heaven. But I wouldn't give a blessing to just any ol' project downtown, either. The dollar amounts aren't as high but a lot of them are pretty small.
Other than being real, the largest difference between the Ambassador and Lot J's incentives packages is that almost $100 million in Lot J subsidies is hard cash. Ambassador may also be a La Quinta and Vestcor may be building the 200 apartment component but we do know who the players are. Outside of Live!, the other components of Lot J are speculative and totally dependent on market conditions (and the public's hard cash). Yet unlike the Ambassador, the lion's share of public money invested into Lot J will happen on the front end instead of after the project's completion. In short, this means millions could be spent upfront, we go into a recession and end up with a half vacant Live! by itself in the middle of a surface parking lot. The parameters of such a deal need to be seriously vetted like Jax has never vetted a project before.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on August 21, 2019, 05:14:17 PM
I'm not a fan of neither. The city throwing $7 million at the Ambassador Hotel is a butt ton of money given that all it gets are a couple handfuls of housing units and La Quinta. And at that, a La Quinta sans a Dennys.
realize I have a bias to La Quinta (no cost to bring my dog with me), but you really should check out some of their newest hotels - they are hardly Denny's level.
I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Denny's in the CBD.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 21, 2019, 06:30:42 PMOther than being real, the largest difference between the Ambassador and Lot J's incentives packages is that almost $100 million in Lot J subsidies is hard cash.
Wishful thinking, friend.
It's actually
$208.3 million in hard cash :o