QuoteMarriott hotel planned for Brooklyn has design issues on all sides
The design of a Marriott Residence Inn that developers want to build next to Unity Plaza in Brooklyn might be a little too "suburban" for an up-and-coming neighborhood on the edge of downtown.
During a conceptual review on Thursday, members of the Downtown Development Review Board took issue with key details in the hotel's building design and layout, saying it lacks street-front activation.
If built, the hotel would be located at the corner of Magnolia Street and Forest Street. However, the DDRB's issue is that the developer wants to build the hotel's parking lots on the portion of the parcel that sits closest to the streets, with the hotel at the furthest point from the sidewalk...
...The attorney representing developer Parkview Plaza Partners LLC, which is affiliated with 220 Riverside developer Alex Coley, said they do not really have any other option for the property.
A sizable portion of the land closest to Forest Street, to the west of the property, can't be built on due to underground utilities lines that the city said cannot be relocated.
Full story: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/06/29/marriott-hotel-planned-for-brooklynhas-design.html
Nonsense they don't have any other option. Are we really to believe that Hitel developers in other cities build suburban designs?
Quote from: Steve on June 29, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
Nonsense they don't have any other option. Are we really to believe that Hitel developers in other cities build suburban designs?
This is the Gate station situation all over again.
One interesting note from the article is that with a roof top pool this will definitely be concrete construction.
Move the hotel towards Magnolia Street and build a 3 level tilt wall garage where the larger parking lot is now, like was done at Broadstone. Leave the front as green space with a check-in driveway only.
Quote from: jaxjags on June 29, 2018, 02:20:15 PM
Move the hotel towards Magnolia Street and build a 3 level tilt wall garage where the larger parking lot is now, like was done at Broadstone. Leave the front as green space with a check-in driveway only.
+1
WHat about moving closer to Magnolia as noted and then instead of being L shaped make it more V shaped and have the other wing follow the Forest St frontage. Seems like then most of all that parking could be flipped to interior around the property they have not been able to purchase. Perhaps even make one wing a floor higher than the other off needed.
Quote from: edjax on June 29, 2018, 02:56:52 PM
WHat about moving closer to Magnolia as noted and then instead of being L shaped make it more V shaped and have the other wing follow the Forest St frontage. Seems like then most of all that parking could be flipped to interior around the property they have not been able to purchase. Perhaps even make one wing a floor higher than the other off needed.
Developer says underground utilities in that area cannot be built on or relocated. Lakelander may be able to better comment about if that is correct or not.
That's what's been mentioned but I haven't seen the proposed site plan or what can be possible on the public side to help improve the situation.
Site plan, from the Daily Record article linked below, which provides some further details:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/residence-inn-concept-reviewed-for-brooklyn
(https://snag.gy/O8He4v.jpg)
The critical question seems to be, What is the footprint of the utility easement? My guess is that it parallels Forest Street, but how far back from the sidewalk?
Also, looks like they will have to get the City to abandon a block of Price Street, between Magnolia and Oak. But that should be straight-forward.
Uninspiring. I realize that Forest might be an issue, but what's the excuse on Magnolia for the frontage?
Quote from: KenFSU on June 29, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Site plan, from the Daily Record article linked below, which provides some further details:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/residence-inn-concept-reviewed-for-brooklyn
(https://snag.gy/O8He4v.jpg)
Utilities aren't the issue, as long as no one is suggesting moving a building over a public street to get it closer to Forest Street. What's needed is a little creativity with parking design and accommodation. Just rethink what can be done with the streets surrounding the property.
1. Respect the traditional street grid by eliminating the thought of making the triangle between Oak, Price and Forest a surface parking lot.
2. Keep Forest open and consider making it accessible as a right-in only from Magnolia Street.
3. Consider making Magnolia a one-way, one lane street between Forest and Dora. The saved space could be a long block of on-street parallel parking adjacent to Unity Plaza. It will help compensate the loss of parking in that triangle area.
4. Shift the building closer to Magnolia Street. To make this happen, build the off-street parking between the building and Magnolia off Magnolia, which could eliminate the need for a parallel off-street access drive there.
In the end, the building plan basically stays the same, does not penetrate the utility easement and you probably end up with or pretty close to the same number of parking spaces.
Well crap! I am starting to hate this city.
Quote
A sizable portion of the land closest to Forest Street, to the west of the property, can't be built on due to underground utilities lines that the city said cannot be relocated.
This has to be the biggest load of crap yet. If it is made by man it can be moved. If they don't have any other ideas sell the land to someone who does. This meeting should have lasted 2 seconds - No. Next.
Don't move them. It's a wasted expense. Just reopen the street grid and let that building remain on the corner (assuming it hasn't already been demolished) instead of making it a surface parking lot.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/185800_standard.jpeg?itok=uXg_Tk3y)
Also, Residence Inns typically include a space in the lobby where breakfast and happy hour is served to hotel guests daily. Without knowing the building's floor plan, there could be opportunity for this space to face the corner of Price and Magnolia with a courtyard for outdoor seating, helping add a little human scale connectivity between the building and Unity Plaza.
Lets don't make this harder than it has to be. Just move it to front Magnolia between Price and Dora and build a parking garage off the Oak St portion. Sell off the unused land for someone else to develop.
Oklahoma City Aloft in downtown adjacent neighborhood.
(https://exp.cdn-hotels.com/hotels/8000000/7310000/7301300/7301227/d49dacff_z.jpg)
A parking garage would surely blow the budget, unless the city is paying for the garage. Accept that every street doesn't have to be two-way in an urban street grid and use the existing asphalt as an opportunity to significantly reduce off-street parking needs. This is an area where the city can easily partner. A good example is parking off Margaret Street in Five Points that serves the retail spaces in front of Publix.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 06:53:14 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 29, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Site plan, from the Daily Record article linked below, which provides some further details:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/residence-inn-concept-reviewed-for-brooklyn
(https://snag.gy/O8He4v.jpg)
Utilities aren't the issue, as long as no one is suggesting moving a building over a public street to get it closer to Forest Street. What's needed is a little creativity with parking design and accommodation. Just rethink what can be done with the streets surrounding the property.
1. Respect the traditional street grid by eliminating the thought of making the triangle between Oak, Price and Forest a surface parking lot.
2. Keep Forest open and consider making it accessible as a right-in only from Magnolia Street.
3. Consider making Magnolia a one-way, one lane street between Forest and Dora. The saved space could be a long block of on-street parallel parking adjacent to Unity Plaza. It will help compensate the loss of parking in that triangle area.
4. Shift the building closer to Magnolia Street. To make this happen, build the off-street parking between the building and Magnolia off Magnolia, which could eliminate the need for a parallel off-street access drive there.
In the end, the building plan basically stays the same, does not penetrate the utility easement and you probably end up with or pretty close to the same number of parking spaces.
I like where you're going with this. If you make some of the parking on street, I'm wondering if it were to violate Marriott's requirements (or at least make Valet a requirement). Obviously Valet is fine IMO, but you do have to put the cars somewhere (and on the street may not be allowed). But yea, this design leaves a lot to be desired.
Quote from: Kerry on June 29, 2018, 07:05:20 PM
Lets don't make this harder than it has to be. Just move it to front Magnolia between Price and Dora and build a parking garage off the Oak St portion. Sell off the unused land for someone else to develop.
Oklahoma City Aloft in downtown adjacent neighborhood.
(https://exp.cdn-hotels.com/hotels/8000000/7310000/7301300/7301227/d49dacff_z.jpg)
Yea, a garage is going to be a non-starter I bet. Garages are so much more expensive than surface.
Unless there was a drive to pool parking from something else, but I doubt it's a reality.
Magnolia one way would be a horrible idea on so many levels.
Quote from: Steve on June 29, 2018, 07:12:36 PM
Yea, a garage is going to be a non-starter I bet. Garages are so much more expensive than surface.
Unless there was a drive to pool parking from something else, but I doubt it's a reality.
Then don't start. Simple as that.
Quote from: Kerry on June 29, 2018, 07:14:07 PM
Quote from: Steve on June 29, 2018, 07:12:36 PM
Yea, a garage is going to be a non-starter I bet. Garages are so much more expensive than surface.
Unless there was a drive to pool parking from something else, but I doubt it's a reality.
Then don't start. Simple as that.
You can't expect every development to have to build a parking garage. It doesn't make sense.
I do agree this design is underwhelming, but I bet it can be fixed without a parking structure.
Who are these nincompoops who even present a site plan like this in an urban neighborhood. Street activation in emerging urban communities is not a novelty any longer, and is happening all over the country, even in the sunbelt. This isn't 1996. Why even come with that. The disrespect for Jax is just real and deep.
Quote from: Steve on June 29, 2018, 07:09:47 PM
I like where you're going with this. If you make some of the parking on street, I'm wondering if it were to violate Marriott's requirements (or at least make Valet a requirement). Obviously Valet is fine IMO, but you do have to put the cars somewhere (and on the street may not be allowed). But yea, this design leaves a lot to be desired.
You'd still have off-street parking behind the hotel on that strip that runs between Magnolia and Oak. You'd actually gain five or six spaces there by not having that interior driveway between Magnolia and the hotel.
Quote from: Kerry on June 29, 2018, 07:13:06 PM
Magnolia one way would be a horrible idea on so many levels.
Tell that to Charleston, New Orleans, St. Augustine, NYC, Boston and a ton of other vibrant historic urban cores that still work fine with them. At some point, you have to get back to designing a city to be human scaled as opposed to focusing on automobiles. This means, you won't die if the roads get or remain narrow like they've been in Brooklyn since the 1860s.
Quote from: Kerry on June 29, 2018, 06:54:06 PM
Well crap! I am starting to hate this city.
Quote
A sizable portion of the land closest to Forest Street, to the west of the property, can't be built on due to underground utilities lines that the city said cannot be relocated.
This has to be the biggest load of crap yet. If it is made by man it can be moved. If they don't have any other ideas sell the land to someone who does. This meeting should have lasted 2 seconds - No. Next.
Starting to hate it? Think that has been well established. Didn't you declare you were outta here soon?
True, utilities can be moved, but at what cost? May Likely to be enough to make the project not viable.
I doubt that the cost of moving the utilities compares to the cost that comes when the hotel has to go back to the drawing board and redesign/re-engineer everything instead of using one of their cookie cutter plans, but I could be wrong.
The only thing that has me puzzled is the little piece of property that they're essentially building around. PA has it listed as LO Properties.
Quote from: edjax on June 29, 2018, 07:48:09 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 29, 2018, 06:54:06 PM
Well crap! I am starting to hate this city.
Quote
A sizable portion of the land closest to Forest Street, to the west of the property, can't be built on due to underground utilities lines that the city said cannot be relocated.
This has to be the biggest load of crap yet. If it is made by man it can be moved. If they don't have any other ideas sell the land to someone who does. This meeting should have lasted 2 seconds - No. Next.
Starting to hate it? Think that has been well established. Didn't you declare you were outta here soon?
My lease is up at 220 in Feb. The little lady mentioned Savannah as a possiblity. Not my first choice but they sure wouldn't put up with this nonsense.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on June 29, 2018, 08:17:43 PM
I doubt that the cost of moving the utilities compares to the cost that comes when the hotel has to go back to the drawing board and redesign/re-engineer everything instead of using one of their cookie cutter plans, but I could be wrong.
The only thing that has me puzzled is the little piece of property that they're essentially building around. PA has it listed as LO Properties.
The article says the owner - LO Properties - doesn't want to sell, or is asking too much (which could be the same thing).
Depending on what utilities are down there, the cost be could be quite considerable. Certainly much more than so design fees.
The site plan shows a block of fiber optic cable, 36" steel sewer pipe and 24" storm pipe running under Price Street. The simple way to avoid bothering with the expense of relocating all of that is to avoid it by leaving Price Street right in its place.
Quote from: Kerry on June 29, 2018, 08:35:54 PM
My lease is up at 220 in Feb. The little lady mentioned Savannah as a possiblity. Not my first choice but they sure wouldn't put up with this nonsense.
In Savannah, they would not force them to build a parking garage but they would make them keep the historic street grid open.
The other thing I don't like about this is the effectively blank wall along Magnolia. The entrance is against the parking lot fronting Forest. Part of that is the Marriott footprint, but all the more reason the site plan isn't good.
I wonder if that can be alleviated by an outdoor courtyard or seating area at the corner of Magnolia and Price? Residence Inn lobbies have areas where breakfast and happy hour drinks and appetizers are served for guests. I don't know how this model's floor plan lays out but perhaps there's a chance that this dining area could be located at the SE corner of the building.
Is it progress that the DDRB discussed "street activation" at a meeting?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on June 30, 2018, 08:42:03 AM
Is it progress that the DDRB discussed "street activation" at a meeting?
Yes...but only if they stick to their guns. If not then no.
The parallel driveway next to Magnolia street kills me. What a waste of space in an urban area. I agree that they should put the parking on the street and then push the building to the edge of the property there.
It seems like that goofy Cul-De-Sac at the end of Oak could be eliminated too and an intersection like on magnolia installed.
Quote from: acme54321 on July 02, 2018, 11:28:20 AM
It seems like that goofy Cul-De-Sac at the end of Oak could be eliminated too and an intersection like on magnolia installed.
All of those dead end cul-de-sacs really bother me. A result of the 90s/2000s plan to develop Brooklyn as a pass through to get to avondale and beyond rather than an urban neighborhood.
Forest is a COJ road now. There's nothing stopping them from making Oak a right-in right-out. However, due to Price Street and the utilities under it, the building can't be moved closer to Forest. So the question becomes how to keep 113 parking spaces without turning that triangle between Forest and Price into a parking lot?
35 Spaces is the number - that's what in the triangle. Not sure if Marriott will back off/allow them to be elsewhere. Also, 4 of them are handicapped - not sure on the rules there.
The frustration is that 35 spaces would fit perfectly in the lot behind the L shape...especially if you relocated the building up to the street on Magnolia (though then you'd need to add 32 more spaces back there).
These funky blocks created by FDOT really suck.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2018, 12:04:18 PM
Forest is a COJ road now. There's nothing stopping them from making Oak a right-in right-out. However, due to Price Street and the utilities under it, the building can't be moved closer to Forest. So the question becomes how to keep 113 parking spaces without turning that triangle between Forest and Price into a parking lot?
Move building towards street line on Magnolia and build a 3 story structured garage with entrance off Magnolia. Have area in front of hotel facing Forest as a check-in driveway only. Give it a park like feel along with the outdoor area you mentioned facing Unity Plaza. As article said, with a rooftop pool this will be a concrete building, so I find it hard to believe that a three level concrete garage will break the project.
The Home Street projects has a three level structured parking. 220 has structured parking. All developers would settle for parking lots if given the opportunity. It's less expensive, but doesn't mean a garage kills the project. If DDRB approved what was presented then they say glad we tried.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 02, 2018, 11:56:07 AM
All of those dead end cul-de-sacs really bother me. A result of the 90s/2000s plan to develop Brooklyn as a pass through to get to avondale and beyond rather than an urban neighborhood.
They look so ridiculous
I'd assume a garage would kill this one unless it's subsidized. I'm of the belief that parking should first be maximized on Price and Magnolia to see exactly where things fall. The DIA has also talked about doing road diets for Forest and Riverside Avenue. Probably gain a hell of a lot of parking if both outside lanes of Forest became on-street parallel parking between Riverside and Park.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2018, 01:02:30 PM
I'd assume a garage would kill this one unless it's subsidized. I'm of the belief that parking should first be maximized on Price and Magnolia to see exactly where things fall. The DIA has also talked about doing road diets for Forest and Riverside Avenue. Probably gain a hell of a lot of parking if both outside lanes of Forest became on-street parallel parking between Riverside and Park.
Curious if on-street parking work with Marriott. I'd assume no unless a Valet was provided (which might be a viable solution). I'd assume Marriott has pretty strict brand standards - in a city like Jacksonville, they're going to want parking provided one way or another. They MAY be okay with Valet and parking the cars on the street, but I'm not sure (who is liable if someone hits a parked car?)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2018, 01:02:30 PM
I'd assume a garage would kill this one unless it's subsidized. I'm of the belief that parking should first be maximized on Price and Magnolia to see exactly where things fall. The DIA has also talked about doing road diets for Forest and Riverside Avenue. Probably gain a hell of a lot of parking if both outside lanes of Forest became on-street parallel parking between Riverside and Park.
Based on my experience DOT would shoot down any on street parking
Magnolia St could easily have on-street parking added. It has nothing to do with FDOT. Streets around Fresh Market already have on-street parking.
FDOT gave Forest and Riverside to COJ a few years ago. Kerry is right about Magnolia. It's a local street too. On-street parking can be added to it as well. My guess is if on-street parking became a part of the mix, the need to have that parking lot on Forest goes away and the building can be moved closer to Magnolia. That triangle between Forest and Price could become something else more human scaled.
The issue might come down to something akin to "Parking at The Landing". There's plenty of places on-street parking can be added (personally I like Forest as there is no need for that road to be 6 lanes). But, what will Marriott require on-site, and how much is alleviated with Valet?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
I wonder if that can be alleviated by an outdoor courtyard or seating area at the corner of Magnolia and Price? Residence Inn lobbies have areas where breakfast and happy hour drinks and appetizers are served for guests. I don't know how this model's floor plan lays out but perhaps there's a chance that this dining area could be located at the SE corner of the building.
This is a great idea. This building is critical to creating something worthwhile at Unity Plaza long term. You screw this up, I fear Unity Plaza will be second rate for a long time.
Keep the buildings between Price and Forest. Maybe they can utilize some surface level parking two blocks away behind Park. There is also so much parking at TIAA Bank and Florida Blue during the weekends. At this point, there are empty lots on empty lots behind Park to the Interstate.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
I wonder if that can be alleviated by an outdoor courtyard or seating area at the corner of Magnolia and Price? Residence Inn lobbies have areas where breakfast and happy hour drinks and appetizers are served for guests. I don't know how this model's floor plan lays out but perhaps there's a chance that this dining area could be located at the SE corner of the building.
This is a great idea. This building is critical to creating something worthwhile at Unity Plaza long term. You screw this up, I fear Unity Plaza will be second rate for a long time.
Keep the buildings between Price and Forest. Maybe they can utilize some surface level parking two blocks away behind Park. There is also so much parking at TIAA Bank and Florida Blue during the weekends. At this point, there are empty lots on empty lots behind Park to the Interstate.
The challenge is I don't think the parking at those places will have an impact. The hotels downtown are busiest during the week (Save for an event weekend), so Florida Blue is unlikely to want to come off parking during the week.
Now, my personal feeling and experience is that business travelers are renting less cars and using Uber/Lyft much more especially in cities (I've seen stats back that up but I don't feel like finding them now).
All they need is 113 spaces. That's not too difficult to accommodate if Magnolia was widened to include parking between Forest and Dora.
If you build walkable urbanism the need for cars goes down, and in some cases, way down. This is why many cities have completely abandoned their minimum parking standards. My guess would be that the target market for this hotel is all of the consultants and contractors that work in the immediate area (Brooklyn, Southbank, Northbank) but have to commute in from airport and Southpoint hotels. I work as a consultant in LA and we have to share a single rental car across 3 or 4 people to keep costs down.
Quote from: Kerry on July 03, 2018, 11:22:52 AM
If you build walkable urbanism the need for cars goes down, and in some cases, way down. This is why many cities have completely abandoned their minimum parking standards. My guess would be that the target market for this hotel is all of the consultants and contractors that work in the immediate area (Brooklyn, Southbank, Northbank) but have to commute in from airport and Southpoint hotels. I work as a consultant in LA and we have to share a single rental car across 3 or 4 people to keep costs down.
Sure, I definitely agree with you there in concept. To your point about walkability, if they build this then because of the freeway that is Forest Street, Florida Blue is harder to walk to then it should be. But, I can't see a business traveler walking even to the core of the Northbank in 95 Degree heat from this location...even if the sidewalks were perfect.
Funny about LA - it's sort of an odd market for business travel - despite being huge, it's one of the few that I get a car in (assuming I'm flying into LAX and not going downtown). Most others I'll Uber just to not deal with the car.
I take the train. The Metro station is 1.5 blocks from my hotel and the office is 3 blocks. A 12 minute train ride connects the two. I don't need a car at all. As for willingness to walk - I live at 220 and walk to the CBD, 5-Points, and even San Marco. Several people living here walk (ride a bike) to the Northbank for work. It just depends on where you come from and how committed one is to actually living the lifestyle one says they support. While I worked in Oklahoma City I refused to use their downtown concourse system even when it was 5 degree outside. I just wore a jacket, scarf, and gloves. I also lived car-free in OKC and used their bike-share system for 99.5% of my non-walking transportation needs.
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
I wonder if that can be alleviated by an outdoor courtyard or seating area at the corner of Magnolia and Price? Residence Inn lobbies have areas where breakfast and happy hour drinks and appetizers are served for guests. I don't know how this model's floor plan lays out but perhaps there's a chance that this dining area could be located at the SE corner of the building.
This is a great idea. This building is critical to creating something worthwhile at Unity Plaza long term. You screw this up, I fear Unity Plaza will be second rate for a long time.
Keep the buildings between Price and Forest. Maybe they can utilize some surface level parking two blocks away behind Park. There is also so much parking at TIAA Bank and Florida Blue during the weekends. At this point, there are empty lots on empty lots behind Park to the Interstate.
The challenge is I don't think the parking at those places will have an impact. The hotels downtown are busiest during the week (Save for an event weekend), so Florida Blue is unlikely to want to come off parking during the week.
Now, my personal feeling and experience is that business travelers are renting less cars and using Uber/Lyft much more especially in cities (I've seen stats back that up but I don't feel like finding them now).
Agreed. Rarely are business travelers renting cars nowadays with Uber/Lyft so convenient. Likewise, the best reason to stay here would be because you going to the Brooklyn TIAA Building, Florida Blue, FIS or a surrounding business. Most likely you would walk or Uber over for cheap.
For the short to mid term, there is a ton of vacant land between Park and the Interstate that could be used for Valet.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 03, 2018, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
I wonder if that can be alleviated by an outdoor courtyard or seating area at the corner of Magnolia and Price? Residence Inn lobbies have areas where breakfast and happy hour drinks and appetizers are served for guests. I don't know how this model's floor plan lays out but perhaps there's a chance that this dining area could be located at the SE corner of the building.
This is a great idea. This building is critical to creating something worthwhile at Unity Plaza long term. You screw this up, I fear Unity Plaza will be second rate for a long time.
Keep the buildings between Price and Forest. Maybe they can utilize some surface level parking two blocks away behind Park. There is also so much parking at TIAA Bank and Florida Blue during the weekends. At this point, there are empty lots on empty lots behind Park to the Interstate.
The challenge is I don't think the parking at those places will have an impact. The hotels downtown are busiest during the week (Save for an event weekend), so Florida Blue is unlikely to want to come off parking during the week.
Now, my personal feeling and experience is that business travelers are renting less cars and using Uber/Lyft much more especially in cities (I've seen stats back that up but I don't feel like finding them now).
Agreed. Rarely are business travelers renting cars nowadays with Uber/Lyft so convenient. Likewise, the best reason to stay here would be because you going to the Brooklyn TIAA Building, Florida Blue, FIS or a surrounding business. Most likely you would walk or Uber over for cheap.
For the short to mid term, there is a ton of vacant land between Park and the Interstate that could be used for Valet.
Or you're anywhere within 2 miles of downtown and you're a Marriott Loyalist! Whenever I book hotels, I always go to marriott.com or spg.com first. If I weer a business traveler coming here and needing to go downtown, I'd honestly think the Marriott site was broken with zero properties downtown.
The bottom line is this. This site plan is not good. There are ways to solve it. I hope the DDRB actually sticks to their guns.
Quote from: Kerry on July 02, 2018, 03:02:16 PM
Magnolia St could easily have on-street parking added. It has nothing to do with FDOT. Streets around Fresh Market already have on-street parking.
I was referring to Forest and/or Riverside.
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2018, 12:14:39 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 03, 2018, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2018, 11:03:07 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 03, 2018, 10:49:12 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
I wonder if that can be alleviated by an outdoor courtyard or seating area at the corner of Magnolia and Price? Residence Inn lobbies have areas where breakfast and happy hour drinks and appetizers are served for guests. I don't know how this model's floor plan lays out but perhaps there's a chance that this dining area could be located at the SE corner of the building.
This is a great idea. This building is critical to creating something worthwhile at Unity Plaza long term. You screw this up, I fear Unity Plaza will be second rate for a long time.
Keep the buildings between Price and Forest. Maybe they can utilize some surface level parking two blocks away behind Park. There is also so much parking at TIAA Bank and Florida Blue during the weekends. At this point, there are empty lots on empty lots behind Park to the Interstate.
The challenge is I don't think the parking at those places will have an impact. The hotels downtown are busiest during the week (Save for an event weekend), so Florida Blue is unlikely to want to come off parking during the week.
Now, my personal feeling and experience is that business travelers are renting less cars and using Uber/Lyft much more especially in cities (I've seen stats back that up but I don't feel like finding them now).
Agreed. Rarely are business travelers renting cars nowadays with Uber/Lyft so convenient. Likewise, the best reason to stay here would be because you going to the Brooklyn TIAA Building, Florida Blue, FIS or a surrounding business. Most likely you would walk or Uber over for cheap.
For the short to mid term, there is a ton of vacant land between Park and the Interstate that could be used for Valet.
Or you're anywhere within 2 miles of downtown and you're a Marriott Loyalist! Whenever I book hotels, I always go to marriott.com or spg.com first. If I weer a business traveler coming here and needing to go downtown, I'd honestly think the Marriott site was broken with zero properties downtown.
The bottom line is this. This site plan is not good. There are ways to solve it. I hope the DDRB actually sticks to their guns.
Hopefully, you will have the Courtyard in the Trio to choose from too and maybe another one if the rumors are true.
Quote from: vicupstate on July 03, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 02, 2018, 03:02:16 PM
Magnolia St could easily have on-street parking added. It has nothing to do with FDOT. Streets around Fresh Market already have on-street parking.
I was referring to Forest and/or Riverside.
Oh okay. If it were up to me they should add on-street parking to all the roads in Brooklyn.
Quote from: vicupstate on July 03, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 02, 2018, 03:02:16 PM
Magnolia St could easily have on-street parking added. It has nothing to do with FDOT. Streets around Fresh Market already have on-street parking.
I was referring to Forest and/or Riverside.
Neither Forest nor Riverside are state roads. As said earlier, FDOT gave Riverside, north of Peninsular Place, to the City several years ago. Forest, although built by FDOT, was never a state road. It was part of a deal to give the City control over the retention pond - and now fountain - at 220 Riverside; and so the City could have total control over the landscaping of Riverside.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 01:17:13 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on July 03, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 02, 2018, 03:02:16 PM
Magnolia St could easily have on-street parking added. It has nothing to do with FDOT. Streets around Fresh Market already have on-street parking.
I was referring to Forest and/or Riverside.
Neither Forest nor Riverside are state roads. As said earlier, FDOT gave Riverside, north of Peninsular Place, to the City several years ago. Forest, although built by FDOT, was never a state road. It was part of a deal to give the City control over the retention pond - and now fountain - at 220 Riverside; and so the City could have total control over the landscaping of Riverside.
Not to doubt this, but this isn't what we were told during the Gate gas station process. On second thought, maybe Gate and the DDRB lied.
Quote from: Kerry on July 03, 2018, 01:20:26 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 01:17:13 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on July 03, 2018, 01:02:31 PM
Quote from: Kerry on July 02, 2018, 03:02:16 PM
Magnolia St could easily have on-street parking added. It has nothing to do with FDOT. Streets around Fresh Market already have on-street parking.
I was referring to Forest and/or Riverside.
Neither Forest nor Riverside are state roads. As said earlier, FDOT gave Riverside, north of Peninsular Place, to the City several years ago. Forest, although built by FDOT, was never a state road. It was part of a deal to give the City control over the retention pond - and now fountain - at 220 Riverside; and so the City could have total control over the landscaping of Riverside.
Not to doubt this, but this isn't what we were told during the Gate gas station process. On second thought, maybe Gate and the DDRB lied.
It may have been a state road during that process - the transition was recent. But, FDOT does have some level governance over the Gate site as it's adjacent to a Interstate Interchange. Not sure the exact rules.
But....that issue wouldn't apply to the Marriott site.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 01:17:13 PM
Forest, although built by FDOT, was never a state road.
You're probably right, but I thought it actually was a state road when built as I thought it carried US17?
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2018, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 01:17:13 PM
Forest, although built by FDOT, was never a state road.
You're probably right, but I thought it actually was a state road when built as I thought it carried US17?
More than you probably wanted to know about US and State Road designation.
US 17 used to follow Roosevelt to the [former] Post/College 1-way pair, then Post to Riverside, to Water/Bay, to Main/Ocean.
SR 228 came in on Normandy, to Post, to Post/College where it joined US 17. It left Main/Ocean at either Forsyth/Adams or Monroe/Duval (I forget which) to get to the Hart Bridge.
SR 211 came through Fairfax, Avondale, and Riverside on Herschel, St. Johns, and Riverside.
When FDOT responded to the City's request to convert Post and College to 2-way, they were given to the City. At that time, US 17 / SR 228 were rerouted to follow the Roosevelt Expressway from McDuff, to I-95, to State/Union. US 17 turned north on Main/Ocean, while SR 228 went south to continue to the Hart Bridge. When FDOT made (again in response to the COJ) Main Street 2-way between State and Union, US 17 turns north directly onto Main (don't know if FDOT has officially removed US 17 from State/Union/Ocean east of Main, yet).
Again, in response to COJ, FDOT terminated SR 211 at Peninsular Place, giving Riverside north of there to the City.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 02:11:46 PM
Quote from: Steve on July 03, 2018, 01:25:32 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 01:17:13 PM
Forest, although built by FDOT, was never a state road.
You're probably right, but I thought it actually was a state road when built as I thought it carried US17?
More than you probably wanted to know about US and State Road designation.
US 17 used to follow Roosevelt to the [former] Post/College 1-way pair, then Post to Riverside, to Water/Bay, to Main/Ocean.
SR 228 came in on Normandy, to Post, to Post/College where it joined US 17. It left Main/Ocean at either Forsyth/Adams or Monroe/Duval (I forget which) to get to the Hart Bridge.
SR 211 came through Fairfax, Avondale, and Riverside on Herschel, St. Johns, and Riverside.
When FDOT responded to the City's request to convert Post and College to 2-way, they were given to the City. At that time, US 17 / SR 228 were rerouted to follow the Roosevelt Expressway from McDuff, to I-95, to State/Union. US 17 turned north on Main/Ocean, while SR 228 went south to continue to the Hart Bridge. When FDOT made (again in response to the COJ) Main Street 2-way between State and Union, US 17 turns north directly onto Main (don't know if FDOT has officially removed US 17 from State/Union/Ocean east of Main, yet).
Again, in response to COJ, FDOT terminated SR 211 at Peninsular Place, giving Riverside north of there to the City.
Actually thanks because I was curious! I knew that US17 followed the Roosevelt Expressway to 10 and 95, but I thought at one point it got off on Forest to Riverside, to Broad/Jefferson, then State/Union, then Main/Ocean.
So bottom line is this (after all of that): The Gate Station was in FDOT purview because of Interchange Proximity, and FDOT would not be an issue with Marriott. Is that correct?
That seems a safe assumption, but I do not know for sure, since the Gate Station gets very close to the interchange ramps.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 03, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
That seems a safe assumption, but I do not know for sure, since the Gate Station gets very close to the interchange ramps.
Memory tells me that the issue with Gate / I-95 was where they were allowed to put entrances due to proximity to the exit from the interstate.
That's why they weren't allowed an entrance on Forest and also what they used to help their argument over redesigning the site plan.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2018, 06:53:14 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on June 29, 2018, 04:16:17 PM
Site plan, from the Daily Record article linked below, which provides some further details:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/residence-inn-concept-reviewed-for-brooklyn
(https://snag.gy/O8He4v.jpg)
Utilities aren't the issue, as long as no one is suggesting moving a building over a public street to get it closer to Forest Street. What's needed is a little creativity with parking design and accommodation. Just rethink what can be done with the streets surrounding the property.
1. Respect the traditional street grid by eliminating the thought of making the triangle between Oak, Price and Forest a surface parking lot.
2. Keep Forest open and consider making it accessible as a right-in only from Magnolia Street.
3. Consider making Magnolia a one-way, one lane street between Forest and Dora. The saved space could be a long block of on-street parallel parking adjacent to Unity Plaza. It will help compensate the loss of parking in that triangle area.
4. Shift the building closer to Magnolia Street. To make this happen, build the off-street parking between the building and Magnolia off Magnolia, which could eliminate the need for a parallel off-street access drive there.
In the end, the building plan basically stays the same, does not penetrate the utility easement and you probably end up with or pretty close to the same number of parking spaces.
How 'bout making the building itself taller , say 12 stories instead of six. This would allow more parking and give this area a much needed highrise visible from I-95 and I-10 approaches. Also add palm trees to address the tourist theme and its Florida context. Enough with the country-town pines and oaks.
Changing the footprint and construction type of the building will increase costs for a project that already has a narrow profit margin. Making it 12 stories basically kills the proposal.
Just saw the latest plan. Parking lot stays thr same. A 3' knee wall and shrubs have been added along Forest. There's also two crosswalks across the parking lot to connect to Unity Plaza. Last, there's a small green space added where the cul-de-sac at Oak and Forest currently lies.
So their solution is a shrubbery?? Great. Can't want to see what happens to the grass lot that this building will surround. Anyone know why Marriott was not able to get this property? Unless the price was just astronomical, it seems like acquiring this piece of land could have solved most of their problems.
I believe the article said the owner did not want to sell. If they had a number on the parcel, it must have been so high as to squeeze the profitability of the project.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2018, 09:24:10 AM
Just saw the latest plan. Parking lot stays thr same. A 3' knee wall and shrubs have been added along Forest. There's also two crosswalks across the parking lot to connect to Unity Plaza. Last, there's a small green space added where the cul-de-sac at Oak and Forest currently lies.
>:(
If you look at the rendering, the shrubbery and stuff they plan on adding is very similar to the "Brooklyn" thing that Gate added. Obviously it worked for Gate to get away with crappy design. Not ideal.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Brooklyn-Residence-Inn-by-Marriott/i-Np7s9mt/0/3c99ff6c/L/marriott-L.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2018, 11:40:19 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Brooklyn-Residence-Inn-by-Marriott/i-Np7s9mt/0/3c99ff6c/L/marriott-L.jpg)
Who's on the DDRB? Any clues as to how this turns out?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on July 12, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2018, 11:40:19 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Brooklyn-Residence-Inn-by-Marriott/i-Np7s9mt/0/3c99ff6c/L/marriott-L.jpg)
Who's on the DDRB? Any clues as to how this turns out?
Movado set the line of it remaining as drawn at -1000
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 12, 2018, 04:06:20 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on July 12, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2018, 11:40:19 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Brooklyn-Residence-Inn-by-Marriott/i-Np7s9mt/0/3c99ff6c/L/marriott-L.jpg)
Who's on the DDRB? Any clues as to how this turns out?
Movado set the line of it remaining as drawn at -1000
Thought it would be less.
If the city's governance process will abide this sort of affront to walkability and street activation, then please stop giving city money away to indirectly correct a problem the city created, and continues to feed.
IMO, they continue to kowtow to the talking points of 'but because development' or 'because jobs'...
Sometimes the better play is to just not do anything rather than approve 'something'.
Because we've seen great plans, some even enacted, bite the dust or just get completely declawed because our city governance can't seem to see the forest for the trees. Developers are going to ask for everything, but if the plan makes financial sense, they're still going to develop, no matter what fees or restrictions they have to build around - that additional cost will get passed down the end user or they'll wait a bit longer before turning a real profit. But if they know that all they have to do is hire Steve Diebenow et al to make DIA cave, then they'll continue to do so.
Conceptual Approval passed 3-2 by DDRB. Shocker.
This was one of those that it didn't matter if 238364394735 people showed up. The people that voted for it would have approved it because they said nothing would get built there if this didn't happen. #eyeroll.
Jax has no intention of being a serious urban city.
QuoteResidence Inn by Marriott is on the rise in Brooklyn.
The city issued permits Wednesday for Pinkerton & Law Construction of Orlando Inc. to build the almost $10.2 million project at 357 Oak St.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/residence-inn-by-marriott-approved-in-brooklyn
This is so poorly designed. That area is starting to get pretty dense, so at least the view of the terrible surface lot will be minimized.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on July 12, 2018, 03:20:36 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2018, 11:40:19 PM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Brooklyn-Residence-Inn-by-Marriott/i-Np7s9mt/0/3c99ff6c/L/marriott-L.jpg)
Who's on the DDRB?
You can find that info here:
http://www.coj.net/departments/boards-and-commissions/downtown-development-review-board
Gross