This is just kind of general question (or maybe I should say 'rant of frustration"), but why is downtown development in Jacksonville so stagnant, especially when compared to pier cities around the country and other cities in Florida? I was in downtown West Palm Beach over the weekend and it seems they have more buildings under construction than there are buildings in downtown Jax, and many of the new ones are going to be among their tallest. 6 months ago I was in St Pete and they have more downtown retail than the Avenues Mall. Downtown Tampa has new retail/entertainment/residential development. Miami is on insane autopilot, Orlando can't build fast enough, and across the country places like Omaha, NE are going all out on downtown development.
Meanwhile, here in Jax there is practically nothing. It has me wondering if I should just pack it in and move. Why can't Jax seem to get the wheels turning? Are we just sitting around waiting for Khan to do something? Do we not have any local developers capable of building anything? Is the City not making downtown development a priority? Is the population in general just opposed to urbanism? What the heck is making Jax so different than almost every place else?
...because people expect either the government or a white knight like Khan to make it happen, when in reality it only happens when private money takes big risks. The Market either creates the activity, or it doesn't...
Quote from: downtownbrown on April 23, 2018, 01:53:52 PM
...because people expect either the government or a white knight like Khan to make it happen, when in reality it only happens when private money takes big risks. The Market either creates the activity, or it doesn't...
Maybe, but every city in America has that going on EXCEPT Jax, and if that is the case why isn't the City doing something? Last year I listened to a speech from the West Palm Beach Mayor and she mentioned their focus on downtown multiple times - and then how they were acting on it. I am starting to think it is a cultural thing here in Jax.
...also takes a city government that is comfortable with huge debt. "No new taxes"= No New Projects.
So Tampa, West Palm, Savannah, Omaha, etc... are all taxing themselves to prosperity? I don't think so. And Jax has just as much debt as anyone. The Better Jacksonville Plan was $2billion in taxes - what did we build with it? How much private sector development was created by that spending? Did we just spend it all on the wrong things (like overpasses)?
I guess I have a slightly different view of things. The multiple apartment buildings under construction in Lavilla are a huge step in the right direction. As has been discussed on here multiple times, the lack of residential density downtown essentially prevents other development from occurring. Clearly the demand exists for residential downtown as can be seen by the pre-leasing at the Barnett Bank building. The longer this slow pace of development continues, the more the demand will rise, eventually to the point that it will be viable for private investors. In a city with so much available land, and such a spread out population, slow and steady is probably what we need at this point; nobody wants to see another Berkman II (I know that failed for a variety of reasons). In the meantime, the best thing the city can do in my opinion is to subsidize the redevelopment of our existing unused buildings downtown into residential. Once the ball gets rolling again, and most of the vacant property is redeveloped, I think new construction will be very hard to stop.
I do think Jax is very much held back by the aversion to spending, but I don't think that's a permanent condition.
Good post OP. Always interesting to compare what is going on elsewhere for perspective. DT Jax has a made a few strides recently, but I've been saying for sometime that it is getting lapped by peers during this growth cycle. Would take quite a bit of time to get in depth in the market forces, but one simple explanation I will offer is that WPB, Miami, and Orlando in particular have far more established and professional downtown development agencies. Go to the ICSC Conference this fall and compare their booths. Maybe DIA has stepped it up, but their booth was worse than Lake City's a few years ago. Comparitively Orlando, WPB, and Miami have extremely impressive booths, staff, and recruiting materials. They give off an aura of success and confidence to large developers. I have heard from several people that the DIA does not compare well with peer cities. Does DVI even do anything anymore?
Back to WPB, the ED of their Downtown agency, Raphael Clemente is a well regarded and innovative planner/urbanist. There are some obvious market advantages over DT Jax, but Raphael and his team do a lot to improve the market, make DT WPB interesting, and stimulate development. Instead of doing tours of Kansas City or wherever they usually go, the leaders of Jax simply need to visit WPB, Orlando, Tampa, St. Pete, and Miami and see what those cities are doing. Would also be interesting to see how much the other municipalties get for downtown agency operating budget and capital improvements compared to Jax.
Combination of all the things we talk about on this forum. The city government can't keep a consistent vision between administrations. The downtown authority was totally (and probably unnecessarily) reorganized over the last 5 or 6 years and has not always been properly supported by the city. Consolidation disguised how much of a decline we really faced. Historical trends have meant there's not much residential downtown, and current trends make new residential developments unfeasible without incentives (which the city hasn't been committing to). And many people don't value downtown revitalization, or at least understand what it really takes to do. Etc., etc.
There's also a cultural element. We're now caught somewhere between the historical sad sack inferiority complex mentality where people don't expect improvement, and starry-eyed optimism where we get our hopes up over dazzling "big city" projects that aren't necessarily realistic. Both of those attitudes leave average people thinking they don't have to do anything themselves to support downtown development. Either things just suck and there's nothing to do about it but complain, or things are so awesome that only the hard hitters have to go up to bat.
I've raised this comparison concern on multiple occasions and usually get skewered for not being positive enough on what's happening in Jax, and this is supposed to be a pretty open-minded and forward-looking thread.
I do believe it's partly cultural. In my view, the city should do more to brand itself to outsiders in many different contexts. Yes, the Jags help, but there has to be much more, and not just the Chamber touting low taxes and temperate weather and friendly people (how is that last attribute even verifiably measurable).
ONE SPARK
Frankly, the city getting behind One Spark and, not just contributing, but coordinating its funding to the levels of what was seen in its first year, would be a bold step in the right direction.
The original One Spark is the kind of event that reverberates culturally. If it had been established as a reliable Jax tradition, I have no doubt its standing would've gone international at this point. It started around the time of regulatory allowances for crowdfunding, and made a ton of sense.
ECONOMIC DEALS/INCENTIVES WITH OUTSIDER AND EVEN INTERNATIONAL FIRMS
In addition, I believe the DIA and others have to put Jax on the international real estate development radar more effectively. I'm always shocked by RFP responses. I just feel like we're not negotiating with the players who know how to tap into alternative funding sources, and who have done transformational urban projects over and over again. Real estate contamination - people the world over have dealt with this - and yet only a trickle of responses come in? How are these RFPs getting distributed? Hire a commercial real estate firm out of Manhattan to circulate these requests - yes, they'll get a hefty commission, but just get it done a few times and the name out to a massive circle that downtown Jax is open for business.
At any rate, the One Spark example and other means of cultural re-branding are where I'd focus. The money that might be spent on bricks-and-mortar, I'd instead spend on "knock your socks off" festivals like One Spark was in year one. One-of-a-kind and incredible experiences, bringing together elements like technological innovation to arts and music and food and wine and eco-engagement and everything in grand celebration of the humanities and nature.
Step One, an events and culture agency should be given the mandate to say, let's look at what's happening at other massive regional draws, and then let's strategize on "how do we one-up that," even if we have to poach the executive events talent from these other cities that appear to be "crushing it."
I believe Jax has more natural assets than Nashville or Austin, I just don't think the city has the right national and even international "positioning" or "relationships." But that can definitely change with the right energy and hunger and willingness to invest.
Maybe I'm a bit of an optimist but I think downtown is heading in the right direction. The subsidized lavilla housing is bound to stimulate other development. The Barnett/trio will be a huge game changer, maybe the biggest project in several generations. Khan will get something done near the stadium, lot J at the very least. In two years unless the economy tanks we could see way more things materialize downtown.
I personally think the Jags have been a big part of the problem. They have redirected so much of the City tourism spending and I am not seeing a return on any of it. When do we see the financial windfall from spending $43 million tax dollars on video scoreboards? I wasn't living in Jax when the NFL selected it for expansion but it seems to me that the City thought getting the NFL would be the catalyst to launch the building of a great city. Compare that to say Oklahoma City that took the exact opposite approach and created a great city that an NBA owner would want to be a part of. Of course, that isn't the problem in and of itself - Miami has wasted billions on sports team with no financial benefit and their urban core is growing like crazy.
Blaming the Jaguars is pretty dumb, Khan has been the owner for a few years, the downtown area has been neglected for many decades before the Jaguars where even born. Looking to blame ,,COJ/JTA is where you need to start.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 23, 2018, 07:45:54 PM
Blaming the Jaguars is pretty dumb, Khan has been the owner for a few years, the downtown area has been neglected for many decades before the Jaguars where even born. Looking to blame ,,COJ/JTA is where you need to start.
Jags have been here for 23 seasons and there isn't even a sports bar next to the stadium. When does it start to pay off?
Overall, some things must be put in perspective.
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA - 6,158,824
Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA -3,091,399
Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford MSA - 2,509,831
Jacksonville MSA - 1,504,980
If all things were equal, these other places are going to have much more going on due to scale alone. Then there's other things that have caused these places to boom economically as well. In South Florida, Miami's real estate market has been boosted by drug money since the 1980s. Orlando has one of the most successful Downtown CRAs in the state. A complete opposite to DT Jax's which is in the red due to bad investments from previous administrations. St. Pete started investing in the arts, being bicycle friendly and cleaning up its waterfront parks as far back as the 1990s.
Despite the different paths these places have taken, the one thing they have in common is their most lively areas of activity have density. There's nothing special about DT Orlando. However if you really look at it, you'll see most of the activity is centered around a few major corridors (Ex. Orange, Central, etc.) where infill and redevelopment has clustered together. In Miami, you have Brickell and in St. Pete, you have Central and the waterfront parks. In Jax, we don't know what the hell we want to focus on. One day it's the District, then the Shipyards and Brooklyn on the next. Ultimately, you end up with billions spent and not much to visibly show for it expect a few isolated nodes of development that all struggle to survive long term.
We can come up with a million reasons of why Downtown Jax seems to struggle but it really boils down to this....density. Jax's real downtown is the Northbank. Until it floods the Northbank with development on top of development to build pedestrian scale activity and density, downtown will struggle to economically benefit from the synergy and image enhancement achieved from clustering urban development together.
This stuff isn't complicated. Try finding a vibrant urban center that's not walkable and pedestrian centered. You won't. If that's the case, why is Jax trying to be the first? Stuff like the Trio, Barnett, FSCJ's dorms, Hotel Indigo, etc. are the best thing that can happen to Downtown Jax to change its image and ultimately its economy. Continuing to spread the redevelopment focus to thin, will simply lead to the same underwhelming results.
The reasons downtown Jacksonville has been slow to develop (and doesn't have density - as Lake said, which is a huge issue) are very simple:
1) The numbers have not worked for private developers in the northbank core - either to build or renovate old buildings. For the vast majority of projects, the value of the buildings after they are finished would be been less than what the developers are into them for. So the projects don't happen. The numbers don't work because rents are too low. Higher rents = higher property values.
2) COJ (mainly past city councils) have not chosen to incentivize private developers enough to make the numbers work for those developers. Rev grants are not enough. The majority of these downtown deals need large cash grants from the city (like Barnett, Jones, etc) to make the numbers work.
That's it! All the other downtowns that are booming right now, either 1) rents (and therefore values) were already high enough to justify private development, or 2) the city is incentivizing developers at proper levels. If a developer (and the developers lender) can see a clear path to making money on a project, the project will happen. As simple as that.
And what happens after a city incentivizes enough development is that the downtown gets enough amenities (bars, restaurants, stores, etc), which raises demand, which raises rents enough to the point where incentives aren't needed anymore. This is what has happened in Charlotte, Cincinnati, Nashville, etc.
Luckily, #2 from the top paragraph is changing - our current mayor and city council DO realize we need to make the numbers work for developers, and the DIA is doing a great job of getting deals done. And as long as everyone keeps doing that, deals (like the Barnett, Jones Furniture, etc) will continue to get done. And the more deals that get done, the more amenities downtown gets, the cooler downtown becomes, and the more people are willing to pay in rent. The rent target for residential is ~$2/sqft (it used to be a little less, $1.80ish, but recent construction cost increases have moved the target). If rents hit $2/sqft (a 750 sqft new/renovated property rents for $1500/mo) then you will start seeing cranes everywhere. All of those cities we "want to be like" - they have rents of at least $2/ft in their downtown core.
The Shipyards, the District, etc will all be great when (if?) they happen - but COJ shouldn't (and currently isn't) waiting around for big deals to get done. COJ needs to move ahead with all sensible projects with developers that are willing to do a deal that will bring heads or amenities to downtown. And this is happening. There are currently more projects under construction or in the pipeline downtown than at any time since the crash.
Okay - so Tampa, St Pete, Miami, Omaha, OKC, Chattanooga, West Palm, etc... all started sooner. But Jax doesn't even seem to be started yet. In fact, with the "low-income only" housing being built now a lot of people will say we have actually regressed. I thought "low-income only" housing went out with the 1960's after it was concluded that the concentration of poor was a bad idea.
I know this thread is making me look like Mr. Negative, but if so, it is because the City has made me that way by constantly disappointing and under performing.
Quote from: Kerry on April 23, 2018, 08:35:10 PM
Okay - so Tampa, St Pete, Miami, Omaha, OKC, Chattanooga, West Palm, etc... all started sooner. But Jax doesn't even seem to be started yet.
Jacksonville started when everyone else did. The Prime Osborn, Landing, Skyway, the riverwalks, destroying LaVilla, paving over Hemming Park, razing the wharves, etc. are all relics of Jacksonville's downtown's failed revitalization schemes dating back to the 1950s. It started decades ago, just like it did in Toledo, Dayton, Augusta, Mobile, etc. and a host of other cities with cores not booming like the Austins, OKCs and Charlottes of the country. However, throwing money at gimmicks, one-trick ponies and wild one-of-a-kind transit solutions doesn't always add up to success. Sometimes, these investments can shoot yourself in the foot. Jax is an example of that.
QuoteIn fact, with the "low-income only" housing being built now a lot of people will say we have actually regressed. I thought "low-income only" housing went out with the 1960's after it was concluded that the concentration of poor was a bad idea.
Then these people really don't know what they're talking about. They should be begging for more of those Vestcor projects to fill decades old, weed filled surface lots and fields of broken, abandoned dreams. Jax needs all the housing and residents it can get and it will be better off if those residents are diverse.
QuoteI know this thread is making me look like Mr. Negative, but if so, it is because the City has made me that way by constantly disappointing and under performing.
Jax is what Jax is. We should all work to make it better but don't die of stress if it never witnesses the boom places like Miami, Houston and Nashville are going through. With that said for all the doom and gloom in this thread, the progress being made now is the most that's happened in the last 18 years or so. If the economy doesn't kill it, things could finally be turning for the better.
Quote from: Alex Sifakis on April 23, 2018, 08:32:45 PM
The reasons downtown Jacksonville has been slow to develop (and doesn't have density - as Lake said, which is a huge issue) are very simple:
1) The numbers have not worked for private developers in the northbank core - either to build or renovate old buildings. For the vast majority of projects, the value of the buildings after they are finished would be been less than what the developers are into them for. So the projects don't happen. The numbers don't work because rents are too low. Higher rents = higher property values.
2) COJ (mainly past city councils) have not chosen to incentivize private developers enough to make the numbers work for those developers. Rev grants are not enough. The majority of these downtown deals need large cash grants from the city (like Barnett, Jones, etc) to make the numbers work.
That's it! All the other downtowns that are booming right now, either 1) rents (and therefore values) were already high enough to justify private development, or 2) the city is incentivizing developers at proper levels. If a developer (and the developers lender) can see a clear path to making money on a project, the project will happen. As simple as that.
And what happens after a city incentivizes enough development is that the downtown gets enough amenities (bars, restaurants, stores, etc), which raises demand, which raises rents enough to the point where incentives aren't needed anymore. This is what has happened in Charlotte, Cincinnati, Nashville, etc.
Luckily, #2 from the top paragraph is changing - our current mayor and city council DO realize we need to make the numbers work for developers, and the DIA is doing a great job of getting deals done. And as long as everyone keeps doing that, deals (like the Barnett, Jones Furniture, etc) will continue to get done. And the more deals that get done, the more amenities downtown gets, the cooler downtown becomes, and the more people are willing to pay in rent. The rent target for residential is ~$2/sqft (it used to be a little less, $1.80ish, but recent construction cost increases have moved the target). If rents hit $2/sqft (a 750 sqft new/renovated property rents for $1500/mo) then you will start seeing cranes everywhere. All of those cities we "want to be like" - they have rents of at least $2/ft in their downtown core.
The Shipyards, the District, etc will all be great when (if?) they happen - but COJ shouldn't (and currently isn't) waiting around for big deals to get done. COJ needs to move ahead with all sensible projects with developers that are willing to do a deal that will bring heads or amenities to downtown. And this is happening. There are currently more projects under construction or in the pipeline downtown than at any time since the crash.
Great post! Many point out Orlando as a place that's booming. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, they provided incentives for a lot of projects to create the scene people see today. Much of the early stuff Cameron Kuhn did would not have been possible without incentives. Even the Publix on Central near Lake Eola had to be lured with public money. Lay the foundation for a critical mass to establish itself and the rest will naturally take care of itself.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2018, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: Alex Sifakis on April 23, 2018, 08:32:45 PM
The reasons downtown Jacksonville has been slow to develop (and doesn't have density - as Lake said, which is a huge issue) are very simple:
1) The numbers have not worked for private developers in the northbank core - either to build or renovate old buildings. For the vast majority of projects, the value of the buildings after they are finished would be been less than what the developers are into them for. So the projects don't happen. The numbers don't work because rents are too low. Higher rents = higher property values.
2) COJ (mainly past city councils) have not chosen to incentivize private developers enough to make the numbers work for those developers. Rev grants are not enough. The majority of these downtown deals need large cash grants from the city (like Barnett, Jones, etc) to make the numbers work.
That's it! All the other downtowns that are booming right now, either 1) rents (and therefore values) were already high enough to justify private development, or 2) the city is incentivizing developers at proper levels. If a developer (and the developers lender) can see a clear path to making money on a project, the project will happen. As simple as that.
And what happens after a city incentivizes enough development is that the downtown gets enough amenities (bars, restaurants, stores, etc), which raises demand, which raises rents enough to the point where incentives aren't needed anymore. This is what has happened in Charlotte, Cincinnati, Nashville, etc.
Luckily, #2 from the top paragraph is changing - our current mayor and city council DO realize we need to make the numbers work for developers, and the DIA is doing a great job of getting deals done. And as long as everyone keeps doing that, deals (like the Barnett, Jones Furniture, etc) will continue to get done. And the more deals that get done, the more amenities downtown gets, the cooler downtown becomes, and the more people are willing to pay in rent. The rent target for residential is ~$2/sqft (it used to be a little less, $1.80ish, but recent construction cost increases have moved the target). If rents hit $2/sqft (a 750 sqft new/renovated property rents for $1500/mo) then you will start seeing cranes everywhere. All of those cities we "want to be like" - they have rents of at least $2/ft in their downtown core.
The Shipyards, the District, etc will all be great when (if?) they happen - but COJ shouldn't (and currently isn't) waiting around for big deals to get done. COJ needs to move ahead with all sensible projects with developers that are willing to do a deal that will bring heads or amenities to downtown. And this is happening. There are currently more projects under construction or in the pipeline downtown than at any time since the crash.
Great post! Many point out Orlando as a place that's booming. In the late 1990s and early 2000s, they provided incentives for a lot of projects to create the scene people see today. Much of the early stuff Cameron Kuhn did would not have been possible without incentives. Even the Publix on Central near Lake Eola had to be lured with public money. Lay the foundation for a critical mass to establish itself and the rest will naturally take care of itself.
Is this true or has this been studied? For developers who are serious about building downtown and approach the city for incentives, do we under-incentivize?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2018, 08:04:09 PM
Overall, some things must be put in perspective.
Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach MSA - 6,158,824
Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA -3,091,399
Orlando-Kissimmee-Sanford MSA - 2,509,831
Jacksonville MSA - 1,504,980
If all things were equal, these other places are going to have much more going on due to scale alone. Then there's other things that have caused these places to boom economically as well. In South Florida, Miami's real estate market has been boosted by drug money since the 1980s. Orlando has one of the most successful Downtown CRAs in the state. A complete opposite to DT Jax's which is in the red due to bad investments from previous administrations. St. Pete started investing in the arts, being bicycle friendly and cleaning up its waterfront parks as far back as the 1990s.
Despite the different paths these places have taken, the one thing they have in common is their most lively areas of activity have density. There's nothing special about DT Orlando. However if you really look at it, you'll see most of the activity is centered around a few major corridors (Ex. Orange, Central, etc.) where infill and redevelopment has clustered together. In Miami, you have Brickell and in St. Pete, you have Central and the waterfront parks. In Jax, we don't know what the hell we want to focus on. One day it's the District, then the Shipyards and Brooklyn on the next. Ultimately, you end up with billions spent and not much to visibly show for it expect a few isolated nodes of development that all struggle to survive long term.
We can come up with a million reasons of why Downtown Jax seems to struggle but it really boils down to this....density. Jax's real downtown is the Northbank. Until it floods the Northbank with development on top of development to build pedestrian scale activity and density, downtown will struggle to economically benefit from the synergy and image enhancement achieved from clustering urban development together.
This stuff isn't complicated. Try finding a vibrant urban center that's not walkable and pedestrian centered. You won't. If that's the case, why is Jax trying to be the first? Stuff like the Trio, Barnett, FSCJ's dorms, Hotel Indigo, etc. are the best thing that can happen to Downtown Jax to change its image and ultimately its economy. Continuing to spread the redevelopment focus to thin, will simply lead to the same underwhelming results.
LOLOLOLOL..."IN JAX, WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL WE WANT TO FOCUS ON!" That's funny, but true; confused, dilly dally, scatter brained Jax; all in a phrase, "JACKSONVILLE DOESN'T KNOW WHO THE HELL SHE IS;" NO IDENTITY! As the old saying goes: "Who is she? Who was she? Who does she hope to be?" The answer is: "SHE doesn't know!"
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2018, 09:50:07 PM
Quote from: Kerry on April 23, 2018, 08:35:10 PM
Okay - so Tampa, St Pete, Miami, Omaha, OKC, Chattanooga, West Palm, etc... all started sooner. But Jax doesn't even seem to be started yet.
Jacksonville started when everyone else did. The Prime Osborn, Landing, Skyway, the riverwalks, destroying LaVilla, paving over Hemming Park, razing the wharves, etc. are all relics of Jacksonville's downtown's failed revitalization schemes dating back to the 1950s. It started decades ago, just like it did in Toledo, Dayton, Augusta, Mobile, etc. and a host of other cities with cores not booming like the Austins, OKCs and Charlottes of the country. However, throwing money at gimmicks, one-trick ponies and wild one-of-a-kind transit solutions doesn't always add up to success. Sometimes, these investments can shoot yourself in the foot. Jax is an example of that.
QuoteIn fact, with the "low-income only" housing being built now a lot of people will say we have actually regressed. I thought "low-income only" housing went out with the 1960's after it was concluded that the concentration of poor was a bad idea.
Then these people really don't know what they're talking about. They should be begging for more of those Vestcor projects to fill decades old, weed filled surface lots and fields of broken, abandoned dreams. Jax needs all the housing and residents it can get and it will be better off if those residents are diverse.
QuoteI know this thread is making me look like Mr. Negative, but if so, it is because the City has made me that way by constantly disappointing and under performing.
Jax is what Jax is. We should all work to make it better but don't die of stress if it never witnesses the boom places like Miami, Houston and Nashville are going through. With that said for all the doom and gloom in this thread, the progress being made now is the most that's happened in the last 18 years or so. If the economy doesn't kill it, things could finally be turning for the better.
"IF THE ECONOMY DOESN'T KILL IT, THINGS COULD FINALLY BE TURNING FOR THE BETTER." This is funny, but let's be real here; don't forget A NUCLEAR BLAST; that would kill everything. Stupid leaders up in WARshington might kill it before the economy does.
Let me clarrify what I mean by "low-income only" housing. I looked at the apartment next to the Convention Center and I exceed the income limit so I'm not allowed to live there. The same with the other low-income housing being built. For better or worse, a downtown full of low-income housing is NOT going to create the critical mass necessary to develop the urban core like most of us want. If it was possible the Moncrief area would be so booming it would make Gate Parkway look like childs play. What I would prefer is the City to mandate that 10% of all new multifamily housing be earmarked for low-income/workforce housing. This would provide ample housing across the city and prevent the concentration of poverty.
I'm saying the housing in LaVilla is a positive, even if you personally make too much money to live there. After all, we're talking about roughly 600 units combined between all four of those projects. Downtown needs thousands of residents and it's empty enough that it should be accepting as many as possible. The more density and foot traffic, the more opportunity for business and betterment of the area's representation when it comes to local politics and funding priorities. DT Jax won't suffer if all its residents aren't hipsters and young professionals. There's room for all. Also, Moncrief could be a lot better but don't get me started on the decades of systemmatic racism in public policy and infrastructure investment, redlining, etc. that has always negatively impacted the viability of inner city neighborhoods. That has more of an impact on that area of town than the income of residents do.
Btw, there's also a big difference between poverty and the affordable/workforce housing being built in LaVilla.
I agree wholeheartedly LAKELANDER; well said. Not to beat a dead horse or turn back the clock (what's done is done and those eras are over), however, there was affordable housing near downtown for almost a century before it all came to a halt and then razed in the 80's and 90's (my Mom and I lived in LaVilla on Duval Street one block east of Davis St. in the mid 60's); and I don't think those houses, rooms, residents that were in LaVilla and Brooklyn all of those years, had a negative impact on downtown; if anything, though they were primarily African American, I would go out on a limb and say that those neighborhoods and areas, when packed and dense with families, housing, grocery stores, shops, etc., contributed towards the success and prosperity of downtown and the adjacent surrounding neighborhoods; but when those areas began to decline and suffer, it appears that downtown suffered along with them. And of course we know about urban flight relative to the whites that used to live close in downtown on the southbank, san marco, riverside, and other areas; they suffered, though to a much lighter degree, along with LaVilla, Brooklyn, and other areas nearby. I believe that AFFORDABLE HOUSING in and near downtown will be a plus, and will help to invigorate downtown, and, don't forget that deep in the urban core and center, there will be middle class to upper middle class living in the towers and other new residentials that are built or being built or planned. Oh, and in my opinion just because an area has affordable or low income housing or even residents, doesn't mean or portray that that area is living in poverty...poverty means poor, penniless, and destitute, and if I remember correctly, people who live in affordable or low income housing might work in the low income bracket, and live in affordable housing, but they are not poor or penniless.
I was reading some blogs this morning regarding urban development in other cities and wonder what it would take to move those ideas along here in Jax. The City should create the framework for successful and sustainable economic growth but we seem to be trying to hit a home run with every at bat instead of just getting players on base. I think we need more of a "Moneyball" approach. Here is a just a list off the top of my head.
1) Transition to a City Manager municipal government. I don't even know if this is possible but Jax has a real problem with consistency at the Mayor position and anything one Mayor does/plans gets thrown in the trash with the next Mayor.
2) Return downtown streets to 2-Way. Cities all across the country are doing this with great success. They were only made One Way to get people out of town as fast as possible and it worked.
3) Create complete streets. A lot of downtown streets are simply too wide. Bay Street, Riverside Ave, Union, State, Ocean, Main, and others could all be adjusted to include protected bike lanes
4) On-Street parking with pay stations. I think Jax might be the only major city in America that still has individual parking meters that only take coins.
5) Bike-share system. Again, I can't think of single city that doesn't have a bike-share system in place.
6) Mass transit. I know people are awed by JTA's pie in the sky Skyway expansion but hells bells, we just spent the last 30 years plagued by a state-of-art system monorail that was supposed to be the future of transportation but was totally experimental at the time (sounds like the current proposed system). Just put some dang rails in the ground like the rest of the world. It works - as proven by 130 years of use around world. Jax doesn't have the money or citizen support to be 'experimental'.
7) Form-Based Code: Stop with all the over-lay zoning around downtown. Just create an area called Jax 2.0 and have form-based codes for it.
8) Put all City owned land up for RFP's and break the Shipyards land up into 10 separate tracts. Give development right to the highest bidder and tell them the have 2 years to break ground. If they don't break ground by then the development right go out for rebid with no refunds.
9) Move to a land value tax in the Jax 2.0 area. Make land owners develop their property of sell it to someone who will. No more land speculative squatting. All that is doing is driving up prices and forcing growth to the suburban fringe which is a money-loser for the City.
10. Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Anyhow - that is a just a quick list.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
The City should create the framework for successful and sustainable economic growth but we seem to be trying to hit a home run with every at bat instead of just getting players on base.
It seems clear to me that this is the real problem. The current mayor and most of the previous mayors have seemingly been so preocupied trying to get "big wins" that little else is accomplished. This stuff isn't rocket science; going back at least a decade the general consensus has been that development will occur when people live downtown, yet the city hasn't done much to make that happen. With the amount of money it has poured into various projects over the past decade, we could have easily subsidized the development of residential for at least a couple thousand additional residents. Imagine what downtown would be like if 5000 residents of all income levels were added to the core.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2018, 11:13:31 AM
Btw, there's also a big difference between poverty and the affordable/workforce housing being built in LaVilla.
Yup.
The LaVilla developments are nice, it's not a public housing project, and you can find MUCH cheaper rents in other/worse parts of town.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
4) On-Street parking with pay stations. I think Jax might be the only major city in America that still has individual parking meters that only take coins.
I parked downtown recently and most of the meters there now take credit cards. A lot of your suggestions make sense. We just need city government that actually does some of this!
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
I was reading some blogs this morning regarding urban development in other cities and wonder what it would take to move those ideas along here in Jax. The City should create the framework for successful and sustainable economic growth but we seem to be trying to hit a home run with every at bat instead of just getting players on base. I think we need more of a "Moneyball" approach. Here is a just a list off the top of my head.
1) Transition to a City Manager municipal government. I don't even know if this is possible but Jax has a real problem with consistency at the Mayor position and anything one Mayor does/plans gets thrown in the trash with the next Mayor.
2) Return downtown streets to 2-Way. Cities all across the country are doing this with great success. They were only made One Way to get people out of town as fast as possible and it worked.
3) Create complete streets. A lot of downtown streets are simply too wide. Bay Street, Riverside Ave, Union, State, Ocean, Main, and others could all be adjusted to include protected bike lanes
4) On-Street parking with pay stations. I think Jax might be the only major city in America that still has individual parking meters that only take coins.
5) Bike-share system. Again, I can't think of single city that doesn't have a bike-share system in place.
6) Mass transit. I know people are awed by JTA's pie in the sky Skyway expansion but hells bells, we just spent the last 30 years plagued by a state-of-art system monorail that was supposed to be the future of transportation but was totally experimental at the time (sounds like the current proposed system). Just put some dang rails in the ground like the rest of the world. It works - as proven by 130 years of use around world. Jax doesn't have the money or citizen support to be 'experimental'.
7) Form-Based Code: Stop with all the over-lay zoning around downtown. Just create an area called Jax 2.0 and have form-based codes for it.
8) Put all City owned land up for RFP's and break the Shipyards land up into 10 separate tracts. Give development right to the highest bidder and tell them the have 2 years to break ground. If they don't break ground by then the development right go out for rebid with no refunds.
9) Move to a land value tax in the Jax 2.0 area. Make land owners develop their property of sell it to someone who will. No more land speculative squatting. All that is doing is driving up prices and forcing growth to the suburban fringe which is a money-loser for the City.
10. Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Anyhow - that is a just a quick list.
Good list of suggestions. Many of them are straight no-brainers. Here are some thoughts:
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
1) Transition to a City Manager municipal government. I don't even know if this is possible but Jax has a real problem with consistency at the Mayor position and anything one Mayor does/plans gets thrown in the trash with the next Mayor.
The lack of followthrough between administrations is definitely one of the main things holding us back. I'm not sold on the idea that a municipality the size of Jacksonville should have an appointed official at the helm, but I wish there was a way to get mayors to follow through on a vision. Probably some of that is just electing stronger officials more consistently.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
2) Return downtown streets to 2-Way. Cities all across the country are doing this with great success. They were only made One Way to get people out of town as fast as possible and it worked.
There was a discussion on this a while ago about which streets should be two-wayed or not, but in general, I think making more of the streets two ways would definitely ease navigation through Downtown.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
3) Create complete streets. A lot of downtown streets are simply too wide. Bay Street, Riverside Ave, Union, State, Ocean, Main, and others could all be adjusted to include protected bike lanes
Total no-brainer.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
4) On-Street parking with pay stations. I think Jax might be the only major city in America that still has individual parking meters that only take coins.
I think many of the meters now do take cards. The last one I used (last week) definitely did. Of course they all should be that way. I never have change.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
5) Bike-share system. Again, I can't think of single city that doesn't have a bike-share system in place.
Not sure the city should be behind this one instead of an outside entity, but yes, bike share would be good. I think it could work.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
6) Mass transit. I know people are awed by JTA's pie in the sky Skyway expansion but hells bells, we just spent the last 30 years plagued by a state-of-art system monorail that was supposed to be the future of transportation but was totally experimental at the time (sounds like the current proposed system). Just put some dang rails in the ground like the rest of the world. It works - as proven by 130 years of use around world. Jax doesn't have the money or citizen support to be 'experimental'.
No disagreement on any of those points.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
7) Form-Based Code: Stop with all the over-lay zoning around downtown. Just create an area called Jax 2.0 and have form-based codes for it.
Totally sensible - there's no reason not to shift to form-based code for the whole city, and even less reason not to do so for a set urban area.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
8) Put all City owned land up for RFP's and break the Shipyards land up into 10 separate tracts. Give development right to the highest bidder and tell them the have 2 years to break ground. If they don't break ground by then the development right go out for rebid with no refunds.
This one I'm not so sure about. The city-as-COJ owns less unused downtown property than people think (there's a lot of land owned by JTA and JEA, for example, which COJ doesn't have control over). RFP's have worked out better for some properties than others. But yes, in general, we should be more aggressive in returning property to the tax rolls.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
9) Move to a land value tax in the Jax 2.0 area. Make land owners develop their property of sell it to someone who will. No more land speculative squatting. All that is doing is driving up prices and forcing growth to the suburban fringe which is a money-loser for the City.
Interesting idea. Don't know much about land value taxes or the effect they have on encouraging development.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Three of our colleges are increasing their presence downtown, which is a good start. However, there aren't a lot of colleges that up and move, and a lot of the ones that do, aren't the kind that really benefit the community - not nearly as much as branch space from established colleges and universities.
Overall, a lot of good, sensible suggestions.
Quote from: Kerry on April 23, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 23, 2018, 07:45:54 PM
Blaming the Jaguars is pretty dumb, Khan has been the owner for a few years, the downtown area has been neglected for many decades before the Jaguars where even born. Looking to blame ,,COJ/JTA is where you need to start.
Jags have been here for 23 seasons and there isn't even a sports bar next to the stadium. When does it start to pay off?
There are two sports bars, a brewery and a distillery next to the stadium. You ever been down there?
Quote from: JBTripper on April 25, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
Quote from: Kerry on April 23, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 23, 2018, 07:45:54 PM
Blaming the Jaguars is pretty dumb, Khan has been the owner for a few years, the downtown area has been neglected for many decades before the Jaguars where even born. Looking to blame ,,COJ/JTA is where you need to start.
Jags have been here for 23 seasons and there isn't even a sports bar next to the stadium. When does it start to pay off?
There are two sports bars, a brewery and a distillery next to the stadium. You ever been down there? Of course that could be an NFL-wide problem. MLB, NBA, and many universities seem to have done pretty well fitting many of their facilities into an urban setting with adjacent private sector development.
Those are next to the Arena. There is zero private sector development adjacent to the stadium.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on April 25, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
Quote from: Kerry on April 23, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 23, 2018, 07:45:54 PM
Blaming the Jaguars is pretty dumb, Khan has been the owner for a few years, the downtown area has been neglected for many decades before the Jaguars where even born. Looking to blame ,,COJ/JTA is where you need to start.
Jags have been here for 23 seasons and there isn't even a sports bar next to the stadium. When does it start to pay off?
There are two sports bars, a brewery and a distillery next to the stadium. You ever been down there? Of course that could be an NFL-wide problem. MLB, NBA, and many universities seem to have done pretty well fitting many of their facilities into an urban setting with adjacent private sector development.
Those are next to the Arena. There is zero private sector development adjacent to the stadium.
It's really part of the greater complex of sports and entertainment uses. The stadium is a major reason they are there from what I understand. They're all close enough to jell. It's like a five minute walk between Intuition and the stadium, if that.
Kinda difficult for the private sector to develop next to the stadium considering Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd, Hart Bridge viaduct and off ramps and Mathews Bridge express all wrap around the stadium.
There are plans to develop Lot J so there are potential things in motion next to the stadium.
These Vestcor developments are huge wins for DT. It's great LaVilla is getting new life as for the last 20+ years its been a dessert of embarrassment since LaVilla was razed as it was deemed a struggling neighborhood. In any DT, there is workforce housing. We are just now being introduced this in our DT. Look at other cities, there are all around their core.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 04:01:47 PM
It's really part of the greater complex of sports and entertainment uses. The stadium is a major reason they are there from what I understand. They're all close enough to jell. It's like a five minute walk between Intuition and the stadium, if that.
Fine, how long they been there? The Jags have been here 23 years.
Quote from: Jagsdrew on April 25, 2018, 04:30:25 PM
Kinda difficult for the private sector to develop next to the stadium considering Bay Street/Gator Bowl Blvd, Hart Bridge viaduct and off ramps and Mathews Bridge express all wrap around the stadium.
There are plans to develop Lot J so there are potential things in motion next to the stadium.
You have a lot more faith in Khan than I do.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 11:30:17 AM
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Three of our colleges are increasing their presence downtown, which is a good start. However, there aren't a lot of colleges that up and move, and a lot of the ones that do, aren't the kind that really benefit the community - not nearly as much as branch space from established colleges and universities.
Overall, a lot of good, sensible suggestions.
Remote classrooms for JU and UNF aren't going to cut it in my opinion, and I don't think FSCJ has this in their mission statement. Savannah has SCAD, Tampa has University of Tampa, West Palm has Palm Beach Atlantic, and I am sure you can pick almost any thriving urban center and find a university. Too Bad Jax didn't try to lure the new Florida Polytechnic University to downtown. Instead it was built in the middle of nowhere along I-4 outside Lakeland.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 06:23:53 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 11:30:17 AM
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Three of our colleges are increasing their presence downtown, which is a good start. However, there aren't a lot of colleges that up and move, and a lot of the ones that do, aren't the kind that really benefit the community - not nearly as much as branch space from established colleges and universities.
Overall, a lot of good, sensible suggestions.
Remote classrooms for JU and UNF aren't going to cut it in my opinion, and I don't think FSCJ has this in their mission statement. Savannah has SCAD, Tampa has University of Tampa, West Palm has Palm Beach Atlantic, and I am sure you can pick almost any thriving urban center and find a university. Too Bad Jax didn't try to lure the new Florida Polytechnic University to downtown. Instead it was built in the middle of nowhere along I-4 outside Lakeland.
There was no luring Florida Poly. In fact it was expanded from a USF branch campus primarily by well connected local politicians. One good thing about remote campuses.
Yeah, Florida Poly is JD Alexander's baby. I personally wish Florida Poly would have been built on the old CSX railyard site just west of Downtown Lakeland. However, like USF, UCF and UNF, Florida Poly won't be in the middle of nowhere forever. Give it another 10 years.
I always felt like Jax should try to get the Coast Guard to create an academy in the Talleyrand area.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 06:23:53 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 11:30:17 AM
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Three of our colleges are increasing their presence downtown, which is a good start. However, there aren't a lot of colleges that up and move, and a lot of the ones that do, aren't the kind that really benefit the community - not nearly as much as branch space from established colleges and universities.
Overall, a lot of good, sensible suggestions.
Remote classrooms for JU and UNF aren't going to cut it in my opinion, and I don't think FSCJ has this in their mission statement. Savannah has SCAD, Tampa has University of Tampa, West Palm has Palm Beach Atlantic, and I am sure you can pick almost any thriving urban center and find a university. Too Bad Jax didn't try to lure the new Florida Polytechnic University to downtown. Instead it was built in the middle of nowhere along I-4 outside Lakeland.
As for as the thought about a college being in downtown and being a large part of its revitalization, Jax's best bet remains to work with FSCJ to expand/develop its existing downtown campus into a traditional college featuring dorms in renovated buildings in the Northbank. Getting a major school to pick up and move to downtown is a pipe dream. FSCJ is our closest example to a SCAD like renaissance.
It doesn't have to be a relocated school, although that could happen. New colleges are created all the time (if Khan wanted to do something productive). The issue I have with FSCJ is that it can't just focus on their downtown campus. They have 4 campuses and 4 other facilities. Now maybe if they started closing those other campuses while expanding downtown...
Anyhow, that is just one idea.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2018, 05:35:53 AM
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 06:23:53 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 11:30:17 AM
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
Bring a real college/university to downtown - even if the City has to fund it.
Three of our colleges are increasing their presence downtown, which is a good start. However, there aren't a lot of colleges that up and move, and a lot of the ones that do, aren't the kind that really benefit the community - not nearly as much as branch space from established colleges and universities.
Overall, a lot of good, sensible suggestions.
Remote classrooms for JU and UNF aren't going to cut it in my opinion, and I don't think FSCJ has this in their mission statement. Savannah has SCAD, Tampa has University of Tampa, West Palm has Palm Beach Atlantic, and I am sure you can pick almost any thriving urban center and find a university. Too Bad Jax didn't try to lure the new Florida Polytechnic University to downtown. Instead it was built in the middle of nowhere along I-4 outside Lakeland.
As for as the thought about a college being in downtown and being a large part of its revitalization, Jax's best bet remains to work with FSCJ to expand/develop its existing downtown campus into a traditional college featuring dorms in renovated buildings in the Northbank. Getting a major school to pick up and move to downtown is a pipe dream. FSCJ is our closest example to a SCAD like renaissance.
Correct. New colleges certainly aren't created all the time, at least the kind that would have a positive impact (we'd be better off without any University of Phoenixes or Kaisers anywhere). Most new colleges that are created have a specific place in mind, like Florida Poly or St. Leo University. While it happens occasionally, it's rare for a college to be up for grabs by a city. However, satellite campus of established schools are created regularly; our best bet is for our local universities to continue their investments in the urban core.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 03:20:27 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on April 25, 2018, 12:20:11 PM
Quote from: Kerry on April 23, 2018, 07:54:36 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 23, 2018, 07:45:54 PM
Blaming the Jaguars is pretty dumb, Khan has been the owner for a few years, the downtown area has been neglected for many decades before the Jaguars where even born. Looking to blame ,,COJ/JTA is where you need to start.
Jags have been here for 23 seasons and there isn't even a sports bar next to the stadium. When does it start to pay off?
Ignoring that Tailgaters Bar & Grill is directly adjacent to the stadium, that's like saying The Landing isn't next to the river, it's next to the bridge.
There are two sports bars, a brewery and a distillery next to the stadium. You ever been down there? Of course that could be an NFL-wide problem. MLB, NBA, and many universities seem to have done pretty well fitting many of their facilities into an urban setting with adjacent private sector development.
Those are next to the Arena. There is zero private sector development adjacent to the stadium.
Quote from: Kerry on April 25, 2018, 06:01:54 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 04:01:47 PM
It's really part of the greater complex of sports and entertainment uses. The stadium is a major reason they are there from what I understand. They're all close enough to jell. It's like a five minute walk between Intuition and the stadium, if that.
Fine, how long they been there? The Jags have been here 23 years.
New development has only been attempted fairly recently. There wasn't even any new public development until the early 00s with the Arena and Baseball Grounds. Intuition, Manifest, etc. have all been within the last few years, as has Daily's Place.
Do folks generally consider Brooklyn to be part of downtown?
^ no.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 28, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Do folks generally consider Brooklyn to be part of downtown?
I don't consider it part of downtown when the context is specifying the actual
downtown downtown, but many people in Jacksonville who aren't speaking so precisely and refer to downtown in broad/general terms definitely do think of Brooklyn as an extension of downtown.
From my experience with people at the beach. Downtown includes the actual downtown core, the sports district, Springfield, Lavilla and Brooklyn. They consider Riverside to be Five points through Avondale. And they consider San Marco to be the Southbank to Miramar. I don't know if that is just a beach thing or what. But maybe someone who lives in Avodale says "Im heading down to Jax beach" as a general term but they are actually going north of seagate to Neptune Beach or to Micklers in Ponte Vedra.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 28, 2018, 09:03:16 PM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 28, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Do folks generally consider Brooklyn to be part of downtown?
I don't consider it part of downtown when the context is specifying the actual downtown downtown, but many people in Jacksonville who aren't speaking so precisely and refer to downtown in broad/general terms definitely do think of Brooklyn as an extension of downtown.
Yeah, multiple definitions. Brooklyn (and Southbank, Lavilla, and the Stadium District) are part of the Downtown central business district used for zoning and planning. But in many ways, the historic Downtown core is the real downtown, plus or minus a few blocks around it, and those other neighborhoods are peripheral.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 28, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Do folks generally consider Brooklyn to be part of downtown?
It depends on who you are talking to because downtown is a qualitative term. It might not be part of the Central Business District, but the CBD does not make up the entirety of present day downtown. When I talk to friends that live in suburban Jax or out of state I tell them I live downtown. When I talk to other friends that live in what I consider downtown or who have a basic understanding of the parts of downtown Jax I tell them I live in Brooklyn.
Quote from: Kerry on May 01, 2018, 08:49:44 AM
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on April 28, 2018, 01:50:46 PM
Do folks generally consider Brooklyn to be part of downtown?
It depends on who you are talking to because downtown is a qualitative term. It might not be part of the Central Business District, but the CBD does not make up the entirety of present day downtown. When I talk to friends that live in suburban Jax or out of state I tell them I live downtown. When I talk to other friends that live in what I consider downtown or who have a basic understanding of the parts of downtown Jax I tell them I live in Brooklyn.
It is part of the CBD. The CBD covers pretty much everything that could be considered Downtown: the core, Lavilla, Brooklyn, Southbank, and the sports complex.
As a Brooklyn resident, I don't consider myself to live in the CBD, at least no as defined in the New Urbanism definition of it. A district is an area with a high percentage of a single use. Brooklyn by itself is a neighborhood. We haveca park, restaurants open past 3pm, office employers but also a very healthy dose of blue collar jobs. I also consider the Booklyn skyline to be seperate from the Northbank, Southbank, and Riverside skylines.
Quote from: Kerry on May 01, 2018, 05:32:34 PM
As a Brooklyn resident, I don't consider myself to live in the CBD, at least no as defined in the New Urbanism definition of it. A district is an area with a high percentage of a single use. Brooklyn by itself is a neighborhood. We haveca park, restaurants open past 3pm, office employers but also a very healthy dose of blue collar jobs. I also consider the Booklyn skyline to be seperate from the Northbank, Southbank, and Riverside skylines.
It's the CBD as defined by, well, being in the city's official CBD. It's really just used for zoning and planning purposes. As other folks have said, many would consider only the downtown core to be our "Downtown".