Interesting poll but not surprising. The same was true about women's suffrage and civil rights when they came to a head decades ago. We've always been a country that's been culturally divided, with perspectives shaped from the environments we've become used to individually, so this is a microcosm of that.
QuoteMost Jacksonville voters do not support removing the city's Confederate monuments from public property, but the issue divides residents sharply along partisan and racial lines, according to a University of North Florida survey of 509 Duval County registered voters.
White voters overwhelmingly oppose moving them — 54 percent "strongly oppose" it — while 47 percent of black voters "strongly support" removing them. The issue drives a similarly divisive dynamic along party lines, with Democrats overwhelmingly in favor and Republicans opposed.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-10-12/confederate-monuments-jacksonville-city-divided
I don't know anyone who voted. I think there would be more against it but the people who are for it are more actively involved which makes them look like the majority.
^No one voted, it's a poll.
The numbers aren't surprising, though the level of support for keeping the monuments is lower than previous indications. One of the pro-monument groups sponsored a poll that supposedly found 75% of Jaxsons wanted to keep the monuments, although they never released the poll as far as I've seen, so who knows what the methodology was.
A national poll by PBS (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/new-poll-majority-americans-unhappy-trumps-response-charlottesville/) in August found that 62% of Americans - this is all Americans, not just Southerners - wanted to keep Confederate monuments, and only 27% wanted them down, with 11% unsure. In fact, 44% of African-Americans wanted the monuments to stay, and 42% wanted them removed.
The UNF poll (links here (https://www.unf.edu/publicrelations/media_relations/press/2017/UNF_Poll_Shows_Racial/Partisan_Divisions_Concerning_Jacksonville_Confederate_Statues.aspx) and here (https://www.unf.edu/uploadedFiles/aa/coas/porl/Crosstabs2.pdf)) shows that 54% of Jaxsons want to keep the monuments, and 38% want to remove them. That suggests that Jaxsons favor removing Confederate monuments at a higher rate than the national average as of August. It's likely that support has increased since then due to the media coverage and education about the issue.
And as Lake says, the fact that the majority wants something doesn't mean it's right when a minority group is the one that's most affected.
This "Other" male, aged 35-44, indicated strong support for removal. :)
Another UNF poll released yesterday shows the numbers across the state. Only 40% of Floridians want the monuments kept; 47% want them "moved to museums where they can be viewed in historical context", and another 9% want them removed entirely. It's strictly divided on partisan lines; 67% of Republicans want the monuments kept; 76% of Democrats want them moved or removed.
https://www.unf.edu/publicrelations/media_relations/press/2017/New_UNF_Poll_Finds_Razor_Thin_Lead_for_Nelson_in_Upcoming_Senatorial_Election.aspx
I'm willing to bet the national attitude has changed a lot since that PBS poll in August, and clearly things are changing in Jacksonville. I wouldn't be surprised if in a year or two, a majority of Jaxsons want the statues removed.
How do embed YouTube videos?
anyway a VOX piece on the monuments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOkFXPblLpU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOkFXPblLpU)
Some kind of meeting today at Hemming Park. Meters are bagged. And I've heard that a street or two are closed off. Finding myself sober, I thought I'd offer my opinion about the statue. Forgive me please.
The statue must go to a museum, or even to the dumpster.
Why?
Because it perpetually provides a subtle semi-qualification or approval of racism ... a statement that slavery as placed upon the African American by some of the white Americans for 300 years or so, might not have been such a bad thing. The statue is an affront to the integrity of, and the position of, the African American in current society. It is also an impediment to efforts of the African Americans to lift themselves up, and into economic prosperity.
Any subtle approval of ... or reminder of ... the slavery into which the kidnapped African was forced, after enduring a chained up voyage in the bottom of of a ship wherein many suffered and died, has no place in a public park. If our elitist white power structure cannot see the benefit to society of a program to compensate the African Americans who've endured many decades of post civil war oppression, exploitation, and horrendous discrimination; they can at least see the propriety and decency of removing the statues honoring those who sought to perpetuate the enslavement of the African American well into the mid-nineteenth century.
The fact that many thousands of acres were given to the white immigrants during our post civil war national expansion westward, and nothing or very little given to the freed slaves so that they could establish their own strong economic stability, is a testament to the cruelty and insensitivity .. the outright racism ... of the white fools governing this country. This does not suggest that we are without white fools governing our country today. To expect a formerly enslaved people to rise to prosperity without some kind of compensation or assistance, is to expect the impossible.
When will the reminders of slavery end? What of the little African American children? ... the impact upon their self esteem? The removal of these statues would provide hope that more whites in our society are willing to not only admit the great wrongs committed to a people stolen from their homeland, but that they are willing to go further ... to at least remove any signs of respect for, or qualification of, the abominable behavior represented by the former brutal enslavement of a population of fellow human beings.
The African American has suffered enough. The societal systems today ... the justice system, the education system, the continuing institutional discrimination ... seem to perpetuate various levels of opposition to the efforts of the African American to lift themselves up; thus, the continued suffering. The removal of the statues might, it would seem, provide slight pressure to remove some that suffering.
One would think that all decent, sensible, and knowledgeable citizens, would choose to remove these statues. Problem ... there might be too few possessing these characteristics. It seems, from my point of view, that our citizenry is populated by too many individuals lacking knowledge of history and the sciences .... perhaps being deprived of enough time because of heavy job responsibilities. And some, perhaps as a consequence of being somewhat obsessed with a demanding religion, might be persuaded to avoid any serious quest for knowledge and truth.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/protesters-rally-for-change-at-hemming-plaza
It's important to be mindful of how much of an effect certain people had on creating the image that people to this day believe about the Civil War and the resulting societal and racial relations. Here's something that makes a good point about that history:
https://www.vox.com/videos/2017/10/25/16545362/southern-socialites-civil-war-history/
a) Polling - I would like to see exactly what questions were asked and what choices were allowed. I'd also love to see what other polling experts thought of the choice in wording. I suspect asking something if something should be removed that a statue tends to skew toward an negative response. After all, if it's a public statue it's art and the community wants it, right? Otherwise it wouldn't there, right?
The poll seems to be public at least about it's results. And they made sure to poll across age groups and skin color types. http://www.unf.edu/uploadedFiles/aa/coas/porl/Crosstabs2.pdf
b) Why remove the Hemming monument? The monument reflects Jacksonville at it's time. Think about it, they were putting up a lot of monuments in the south during this time.
They put these memorials up for a few reason. First off, the South had won the insurrection. More so, at this point, the Civil War vets were old men. Just as 25+ years out, we started to openly memorialize and celebrate Vietnam War vets, people back in the day did the same about the Civil War vets.
The times change. We should reconsider moving or changing some monuments, especially ones publicly embracing the people that committed treason against the United State. Nevertheless, the Hemming monument fully captures the zeitgeist of Jacksonville in it's formative years. We shouldn't move it, remove it or topple it.
We should further supplement it with something that captures where the city is 100+ years later. Hemming represents where Jacksonville was in the 1890s. Let's put up something to show coming generations how far we've come since then.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on January 29, 2018, 11:22:42 AM
a) Polling - I would like to see exactly what questions were asked and what choices were allowed. I'd also love to see what other polling experts thought of the choice in wording. I suspect asking something if something should be removed that a statue tends to skew toward an negative response. After all, if it's a public statue it's art and the community wants it, right? Otherwise it wouldn't there, right?
The poll seems to be public at least about it's results. And they made sure to poll across age groups and skin color types. http://www.unf.edu/uploadedFiles/aa/coas/porl/Crosstabs2.pdf
b) Why remove the Hemming monument? The monument reflects Jacksonville at it's time. Think about it, they were putting up a lot of monuments in the south during this time.
They put these memorials up for a few reason. First off, the South had won the insurrection. More so, at this point, the Civil War vets were old men. Just as 25+ years out, we started to openly memorialize and celebrate Vietnam War vets, people back in the day did the same about the Civil War vets.
The times change. We should reconsider moving or changing some monuments, especially ones publicly embracing the people that committed treason against the United State. Nevertheless, the Hemming monument fully captures the zeitgeist of Jacksonville in it's formative years. We shouldn't move it, remove it or topple it.
We should further supplement it with something that captures where the city is 100+ years later. Hemming represents where Jacksonville was in the 1890s. Let's put up something to show coming generations how far we've come since then.
Welcome to the forums.
The polls were linked earlier in the thread. You can read about the methodologies in the links. The numbers show that as of October, 54% of Jaxsons want to keep the monuments, and 38% want them removed. That's much closer than the national average from the PBS poll in August, which found that 62% of the country wanted to keep Confederate monuments, and only 27% wanted them down.
What's probably happening is that people are changing their opinions increasingly in favor of removing monuments, following Charlottesville and increasing education about the Jim Crow origins of Confederate monuments. I wouldn't be surprised if a local poll were taken today, it would be even closer.
Quote from: bl8jaxnative on January 29, 2018, 11:22:42 AM
b) Why remove the Hemming monument? The monument reflects Jacksonville at it's time.
Jacksonville was a majority black city when the Hemming monument was erected. It did not reflect Jacksonville at the time. About the only thing it reflects is a change from a more inclusive reconstruction era political system into an era were segregationist and revisionist storytelling of the city's history became more dominant. As a minority and now having a better understanding of Jax's true past, I believe a solution where it stays but some sort of consolation trophy/monument is added is essentially a slap in the face of true Jacksonville.
^At least that could happen. Removal isn't happening anytime soon, unless this movement really gets its act together.
If that's the solution, I wouldn't waste my time.
The only reason I would want the Hemming monument to stay is because it is one of the few things that survived the 1901 fire. That IMO makes it historically significant. The other monuments erected after reconstruction, unless they are historical markers noting a historical event or grave stones, I could not care less about.
QuoteThe only reason I would want the Hemming monument to stay is because it is one of the few things that survived the 1901 fire.
This is only true in the Northbank roughly between the river, Clay Street and Hogans Creek. Many buildings in Jax outside of that boundary (like LaVilla, Springfield and the Eastside) still stand that pre-date the Great Fire of 1901. They happen to be in historically African-American areas of the urban core, so we tend to overlook them because the history and important contributions of these areas are largely forgotten and unknown to the general masses after a century of telling a Jax history from a single perspective of those in charge during Jim Crow. Hemming also isn't the oldest. The Union Monument in Evergreen (another area that didn't burn in the fire) predates it by seven years.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 12:24:28 PM
Jacksonville was a majority black city when the Hemming monument was erected. It did not reflect Jacksonville at the time. About the only thing it reflects is a change from a more inclusive reconstruction era political system into an era were segregationist and revisionist storytelling of the city's history became more dominant. As a minority and now having a better understanding of Jax's true past, I believe a solution where it stays but some sort of consolation trophy/monument is added is essentially a slap in the face of true Jacksonville.
Not your best take, Ennis. The mere fact that population may have had more blacks does not mean the monument when erected did not, and does not still, reflect Jacksonville. In fact, it most certainly does.
This absurd agenda-driven nonsense simplistically pushed around the country is not supported by most of the country. And the actual fact of the matter is that most black people do not give a damn about those statues. Not a damn! The only way those polling numbers approach support is by crafting the wording in a fashion designed to increase the levels of support for removal. That UNF polling outfit -- is that the same one that crazily said Donald Trump had the support of but 1% of black Floridians ? ? ? And of course the polling numbers in this city will differ from the national norm -- we probably have triple the black population percentage of the national average.
Leave the damn monuments alone; quit acting like the damn Taliban and essentially tearing down our history.
Most disappointing to me, though, is this take that adding a monument or monuments in Hemming Park is somehow a slap in the face of this city. No, it's called adding representative history -- which is where the earlier monument failed. It reflected Jacksonville, and certainly was representative of the power structure of the city (population levels be damned) but it was not as representative as it could have and should have been.
Change the name of Confederate Park back to its original name? I support that 100 percent. But leave the monuments alone.
Lol, cut out the 21st century cramp and Trump mumble jumble. Tell me from a historical reflective how it reflects "Jacksonville" outside of being a symbol of pride for a minority portion of the population when it was erected in a park that the majority of city couldn't freely enjoy? Jax is and was more progressive and diverse than you give it credit for. It in and of itself is representative of a Taliban like regime. A pretty effective one considering the massive lack of knowledge concerning Jax's actual history. Move it to a cemetery like Old City or Evergreen and move on. Oh and keep the consolation prizes and monuments. Sticking a smaller statue or monument of something else in a secondary spot in the park isn't helping anything.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 29, 2018, 09:36:10 PMMove it to a cemetery like Old City or Evergreen and move on. Oh and keep the consolation prizes and monuments. Sticking a smaller statue or monument of something else in a secondary spot in the park isn't helping anything.
Only people are coming for Confederate markers in cemeteries as well.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/city-to-decide-fate-of-two-confederate-monuments-in-madison/article_9cd1b791-9a2a-5e78-bfac-4146d1e1dfea.html (http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/city-to-decide-fate-of-two-confederate-monuments-in-madison/article_9cd1b791-9a2a-5e78-bfac-4146d1e1dfea.html)
Are they going for the Union markers in our cemeteries too? With that said, our history isn't the same as Wisconsin's. There's no one size fits all solution.
Let's put the Hemming monument in Old City, bring the Union monument from Evergreen to Union(Hemming) Plaza and leave the women of the southland where it is, cause it's kinda nice.
Oh and no they aren't moving Union monuments in cemeteries, but if you or I go and move a grave marker, that would be defacing a grave(probably a criminal offense) why can groups driven by an agenda on either side of the issue be able to force that same action?
I mean they are in cemeteries already, who is offended? The ghosts? /s