On Confederate monuments, Jacksonville is a city divided

[thelakelander]

Interesting poll but not surprising. The same was true about women's suffrage and civil rights when they came to a head decades ago. We've always been a country that's been culturally divided, with perspectives shaped from the environments we've become used to individually, so this is a microcosm of that.

Most Jacksonville voters do not support removing the city's Confederate monuments from public property, but the issue divides residents sharply along partisan and racial lines, according to a University of North Florida survey of 509 Duval County registered voters.

White voters overwhelmingly oppose moving them — 54 percent "strongly oppose" it — while 47 percent of black voters "strongly support" removing them. The issue drives a similarly divisive dynamic along party lines, with Democrats overwhelmingly in favor and Republicans opposed.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-10-12/confederate-monuments-jacksonville-city-divided

[benfranklinbof]

I don't know anyone who voted. I think there would be more against it but the people who are for it are more actively involved which makes them look like the majority.

[Tacachale]

^No one voted, it's a poll.

The numbers aren't surprising, though the level of support for keeping the monuments is lower than previous indications. One of the pro-monument groups sponsored a poll that supposedly found 75% of Jaxsons wanted to keep the monuments, although they never released the poll as far as I've seen, so who knows what the methodology was.

A national poll by PBS in August found that 62% of Americans - this is all Americans, not just Southerners - wanted to keep Confederate monuments, and only 27% wanted them down, with 11% unsure. In fact, 44% of African-Americans wanted the monuments to stay, and 42% wanted them removed.

The UNF poll (links here and here) shows that 54% of Jaxsons want to keep the monuments, and 38% want to remove them. That suggests that Jaxsons favor removing Confederate monuments at a higher rate than the national average as of August. It's likely that support has increased since then due to the media coverage and education about the issue.

And as Lake says, the fact that the majority wants something doesn't mean it's right when a minority group is the one that's most affected.

[JaxNole]

This "Other" male, aged 35-44, indicated strong support for removal.

[Tacachale]

Another UNF poll released yesterday shows the numbers across the state. Only 40% of Floridians want the monuments kept; 47% want them "moved to museums where they can be viewed in historical context", and another 9% want them removed entirely. It's strictly divided on partisan lines; 67% of Republicans want the monuments kept; 76% of Democrats want them moved or removed.

https://www.unf.edu/publicrelations/media_relations/press/2017/New_UNF_Poll_Finds_Razor_Thin_Lead_for_Nelson_in_Upcoming_Senatorial_Election.aspx

I'm willing to bet the national attitude has changed a lot since that PBS poll in August, and clearly things are changing in Jacksonville. I wouldn't be surprised if in a year or two, a majority of Jaxsons want the statues removed.

[lastdaysoffla]

How do embed YouTube videos?

anyway a VOX piece on the monuments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOkFXPblLpU

[ronchamblin]

Some kind of meeting today at Hemming Park.  Meters are bagged.  And I've heard that a street or two are closed off.  Finding myself sober, I thought I'd offer my opinion about the statue.  Forgive me please.

The statue must go to a museum, or even to the dumpster.   

Why? 

Because it perpetually provides a subtle semi-qualification or approval of racism ... a statement that slavery as placed upon the African American by some of the white Americans for 300 years or so, might not have been such a bad thing.  The statue is an affront to the integrity of, and the position of, the African American in current society.  It is also an impediment to efforts of the African Americans to lift themselves up, and into economic prosperity. 

Any subtle approval of ... or reminder of ... the slavery into which the kidnapped African was forced, after enduring a chained up voyage in the bottom of of a ship wherein many suffered and died, has no place in a public park.  If our elitist white power structure cannot see the benefit to society of a program to compensate the African Americans who've endured many decades of post civil war oppression, exploitation, and horrendous discrimination; they can at least see the propriety and decency of removing the statues honoring those who sought to perpetuate the enslavement of the African American well into the mid-nineteenth century.

The fact that many thousands of acres were given to the white immigrants during our post civil war national expansion westward, and nothing or very little given to the freed slaves so that they could establish their own strong economic stability, is a testament to the cruelty and insensitivity .. the outright racism ... of the white fools governing this country.  This does not suggest that we are without white fools governing our country today.  To expect a formerly enslaved people to rise to prosperity without some kind of compensation or assistance, is to expect the impossible. 

When will the reminders of slavery end?  What of the little African American children? ... the impact upon their self esteem?  The removal of these statues would provide hope that more whites in our society are willing to not only admit the great wrongs committed to a people stolen from their homeland, but that they are willing to go further ... to at least remove any signs of respect for, or qualification of, the abominable behavior represented by the former brutal enslavement of a population of fellow human beings.

The African American has suffered enough.  The societal systems today ... the justice system, the education system, the continuing institutional discrimination ... seem to perpetuate various levels of opposition to the efforts of the African American to lift themselves up; thus, the continued suffering.  The removal of the statues might, it would seem, provide slight pressure to remove some that suffering.

One would think that all decent, sensible, and knowledgeable citizens, would choose to remove these statues.  Problem ... there might be too few possessing these characteristics.  It seems, from my point of view, that our citizenry is populated by too many individuals lacking knowledge of history and the sciences .... perhaps being deprived of enough time because of heavy job responsibilities.  And some, perhaps as a consequence of being somewhat obsessed with a demanding religion, might be persuaded to avoid any serious quest for knowledge and truth.

[KenFSU]

https://www.news4jax.com/news/protesters-rally-for-change-at-hemming-plaza

[marcuscnelson]

It's important to be mindful of how much of an effect certain people had on creating the image that people to this day believe about the Civil War and the resulting societal and racial relations. Here's something that makes a good point about that history:

https://www.vox.com/videos/2017/10/25/16545362/southern-socialites-civil-war-history/

[bl8jaxnative]

a) Polling - I would like to see exactly what questions were asked and what choices were allowed.   I'd also love to see what other polling experts thought of the choice in wording.  I suspect asking something if something should be removed that a statue tends to skew toward an negative response.   After all, if it's a public statue it's art and the community wants it, right?  Otherwise it wouldn't there, right?

The poll seems to be public at least about it's results.  And they made sure to poll across age groups and skin color types.   http://www.unf.edu/uploadedFiles/aa/coas/porl/Crosstabs2.pdf

b) Why remove the Hemming monument?   The monument reflects Jacksonville at it's time.   Think about it, they were putting up a lot of monuments in the south during this time. 

They put these memorials up for a few reason.  First off, the South had won the insurrection.  More so, at this point, the Civil War vets were old men.  Just as 25+ years out, we started to openly memorialize and celebrate Vietnam War vets, people back in the day did the same about the Civil War vets.

The times change.  We should reconsider moving or changing some monuments, especially ones publicly embracing the people that committed treason against the United State.   Nevertheless, the Hemming monument fully captures the zeitgeist of Jacksonville in it's formative years.   We shouldn't move it, remove it or topple it. 

We should further supplement it with something that captures where the city is 100+ years later.  Hemming represents where Jacksonville was in the 1890s.  Let's put up something to show coming generations how far we've come since then.

[Tacachale]

a) Polling - I would like to see exactly what questions were asked and what choices were allowed.   I'd also love to see what other polling experts thought of the choice in wording.  I suspect asking something if something should be removed that a statue tends to skew toward an negative response.   After all, if it's a public statue it's art and the community wants it, right?  Otherwise it wouldn't there, right?

The poll seems to be public at least about it's results.  And they made sure to poll across age groups and skin color types.   http://www.unf.edu/uploadedFiles/aa/coas/porl/Crosstabs2.pdf

b) Why remove the Hemming monument?   The monument reflects Jacksonville at it's time.   Think about it, they were putting up a lot of monuments in the south during this time. 

They put these memorials up for a few reason.  First off, the South had won the insurrection.  More so, at this point, the Civil War vets were old men.  Just as 25+ years out, we started to openly memorialize and celebrate Vietnam War vets, people back in the day did the same about the Civil War vets.

The times change.  We should reconsider moving or changing some monuments, especially ones publicly embracing the people that committed treason against the United State.   Nevertheless, the Hemming monument fully captures the zeitgeist of Jacksonville in it's formative years.   We shouldn't move it, remove it or topple it. 

We should further supplement it with something that captures where the city is 100+ years later.  Hemming represents where Jacksonville was in the 1890s.  Let's put up something to show coming generations how far we've come since then.

Welcome to the forums.

The polls were linked earlier in the thread. You can read about the methodologies in the links. The numbers show that as of October, 54% of Jaxsons want to keep the monuments, and 38% want them removed. That's much closer than the national average from the PBS poll in August, which found that 62% of the country wanted to keep Confederate monuments, and only 27% wanted them down.

What's probably happening is that people are changing their opinions increasingly in favor of removing monuments, following Charlottesville and increasing education about the Jim Crow origins of Confederate monuments. I wouldn't be surprised if a local poll were taken today, it would be even closer.

[thelakelander]

b) Why remove the Hemming monument?   The monument reflects Jacksonville at it's time.

Jacksonville was a majority black city when the Hemming monument was erected. It did not reflect Jacksonville at the time. About the only thing it reflects is a change from a more inclusive reconstruction era political system into an era were segregationist and revisionist storytelling of the city's history became more dominant. As a minority and now having a better understanding of Jax's true past, I believe a solution where it stays but some sort of consolation trophy/monument is added is essentially a slap in the face of true Jacksonville.

[Tacachale]

^At least that could happen. Removal isn't happening anytime soon, unless this movement really gets its act together.

[thelakelander]

If that's the solution, I wouldn't waste my time.

[carpnter]

The only reason I would want the Hemming monument to stay is because it is one of the few things that survived the 1901 fire.  That IMO makes it historically significant.  The other monuments erected after reconstruction, unless they are historical markers noting a historical event or grave stones, I could not care less about.