Per their email newsletter the tap room has been shut down by the fire marshal.
QuoteBold City Tap Room – Rosselle is Closed Until Further Notice
As has been routine for 9 years now, the Fire Marshal came for their annual inspection. Routine inspection, right? Not this time.
The Fire Marshal has determined that our original certificate of use does not allow us to operate our tap room that has been operating as is with zoning approval for 9 years.
Bold City will make every effort to open the tap room back up as soon as possible.
While we are in the process of re-opening, please visit our downtown location located @ 109 East Bay Street. Open everyday @ 11am.
Thank you for understanding,
Brian
WTF.
Assuming this is "as it seems" on the surface, either this inspector should be held accountable because of this, or the 9 previous inspectors should. They both can't be right if the "offense" is serious enough to shut them down.
(now, I caveat my post with the assumption that the issue that is shutting them down isn't something new over the last year that wouldn't have been a factor in the previous inspections).
That's pretty amazing considering the fire marshall came down on Vernon years ago when he was using a grill to prepare food, which is why he had to switch to an oven. You think they would have noticed any issues with their certificate of use at that time.
It's also possible that the owners are being economical with the truth.
Damn...
Didn't they just shut down the "Corks Art Building" as well?
^ yes
Quote from: Bill Hoff on July 06, 2017, 06:04:55 PM
^ yes
I think it was only part of the building that was closed.
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
Yet it was overlooked for the last 9 years, apparently. I could see something like this happening once, maybe twice.
My statement still stands - unless there was a major change related to the taproom (Which as a customer over the last 9 years there isn't anything visible to a customer that's changed), either this guy is wrong, or the rest of the Fire Marshalls that inspected this have an issue.
Reading the various articles, it seems like something that should have been required 9 years ago wasn't requested of Bold City...and now they're coming back. Even the IRS only goes back 7 years.
I'm sure this might make some thing of the awful situation that happened in London with the high rise fire and flammable material. I get that Fire Safety isn't something that should be taken lightly. With that said, this seems like a scenario where the city should have required a fix by a certain time, and not killed the business for weeks. If whatever was missed was so important, then how has it gone unnoticed for nearly a decade.
Quote from: Steve on July 07, 2017, 08:33:36 AM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
Yet it was overlooked for the last 9 years, apparently. I could see something like this happening once, maybe twice.
My statement still stands - unless there was a major change related to the taproom (Which as a customer over the last 9 years there isn't anything visible to a customer that's changed), either this guy is wrong, or the rest of the Fire Marshalls that inspected this have an issue.
Reading the various articles, it seems like something that should have been required 9 years ago wasn't requested of Bold City...and now they're coming back. Even the IRS only goes back 7 years.
I'm sure this might make some thing of the awful situation that happened in London with the high rise fire and flammable material. I get that Fire Safety isn't something that should be taken lightly. With that said, this seems like a scenario where the city should have required a fix by a certain time, and not killed the business for weeks. If whatever was missed was so important, then how has it gone unnoticed for nearly a decade.
As far as I know, we don't know why the taproom was closed - other than the fire marshal decided to close it. Whether there was a change that prompted this or whether it was because previous inspectors overlooked issues doesn't change the fact that if there is a fire safety issue, it should be sorted - and it's not an issue of the big, bad government screwing things up for "productive members of society".
Of course, if the fire marshal is making up illegitimate reasons to close the business, then that's a different thing entirely. But we don't know that.
Edit: if this is a longstanding issue that wasn't picked up (and should've been), then the owners should be able to seek redress of some sort from the City (not saying they can, just saying they should be able to). But the City's incompetence doesn't change the fact that fire safety regulations exist for a reason.
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
No, no. Per the Libertarian way, restaurants should be allowed to lace their food with asbestos and elementary schools should have the freedom to used lead-based paint on every wall.
Quote from: funwithteeth on July 07, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
No, no. Per the Libertarian way, restaurants should be allowed to lace their food with asbestos and elementary schools should have the freedom to used lead-based paint on every wall.
Use hyperbole much?
This was not a case of the fire marshal just enforcing basic fire or safety regulations. They were apparently shut down because their original certificate of use didn't specify a tap room and didn't have site plans attached. Apparently their certificate were fine when they opened, and the business had passed inspections every year for 9 years, but the rules changed at some point and they fell out of compliance without knowing it.
The fire marshall is apparently cracking down on facilities in that area; they closed down part of Cork earlier this week. It would have been nice if they could stay open while making plans to fix whatever problems there are, as it'll be tough without that revenue stream.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/fire-marshal-closes-bold-city-brewery-taproom-on-rosselle-street
Since the rules changed it seems a 30 or 60 fix it warning could have been issued...
^I spoke too soon - Bold City has been permitted to keep the tap room going with some conditions. Hopefully it'll make it easier to get the building up to code.
http://jacksonville.com/news/food-and-dining/metro/2017-07-07/bold-city-gets-reprieve-brewery-tap-room-ok-d-reopen?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TheFloridaTimesUnion-SND
Quote from: Tacachale on July 07, 2017, 01:26:55 PM
^I spoke too soon - Bold City has been permitted to keep the tap room going with some conditions. Hopefully it'll make it easier to get the building up to code.
http://jacksonville.com/news/food-and-dining/metro/2017-07-07/bold-city-gets-reprieve-brewery-tap-room-ok-d-reopen?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=TheFloridaTimesUnion-SND
Sanity Prevails...
Quote from: funwithteeth on July 07, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
No, no. Per the Libertarian way, restaurants should be allowed to lace their food with asbestos and elementary schools should have the freedom to used lead-based paint on every wall.
I know you are just being flippant but the actual Libertarian way would be to have the FDA privatized. Kind of like the UL for anything electronic. Not required by federal law but good luck selling a product not certified.
Quote from: Jim on July 07, 2017, 01:31:57 PM
Quote from: funwithteeth on July 07, 2017, 01:12:01 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: FSBA on July 07, 2017, 07:47:54 AM
Government busy bodies screwing things up for productive members of society. Typical.
Oh please. Fire safety should not be overlooked in the name of profit.
No, no. Per the Libertarian way, restaurants should be allowed to lace their food with asbestos and elementary schools should have the freedom to used lead-based paint on every wall.
I know you are just being flippant but the actual Libertarian way would be to have the FDA privatized. Kind of like the UL for anything electronic. Not required by federal law but good luck selling a product not certified.
Except in the "libertarian" utopia, the competition is eventually eliminated and consumers really won't be able to choose who they buy from.
So, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
QuoteThe decision was that Bold City Brewery had been doing something for almost nine years that it was never permitted to do.
So the beer taps were shut down. The brewery was still operating, as was Bold City's new tap room downtown on Bay Street. But the Riverside tap room was closed and dry Thursday night, one of only three days a week that it's open to the public.
By Friday, however, Wilson said, his office found an exception deep in the National Fire Protection Association's codes, which the city follows: The tap room could reopen as long as no more than 4o were there at a time.
"If there's any wiggle room that we can keep them operating," Wilson said, "we want to do that."
That's because the tap room as a mercantile operating falls under "incidental" use. Yoga, however, is classified as "assembly." And that wouldn't work.
"It all goes by square footage and with yoga they could have 300 people in there," he said. "Then you'd need fire alarms, lighted exits."
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 02:41:45 PM
So, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
QuoteThe decision was that Bold City Brewery had been doing something for almost nine years that it was never permitted to do.
So the beer taps were shut down. The brewery was still operating, as was Bold City's new tap room downtown on Bay Street. But the Riverside tap room was closed and dry Thursday night, one of only three days a week that it's open to the public.
By Friday, however, Wilson said, his office found an exception deep in the National Fire Protection Association's codes, which the city follows: The tap room could reopen as long as no more than 4o were there at a time.
"If there's any wiggle room that we can keep them operating," Wilson said, "we want to do that."
That's because the tap room as a mercantile operating falls under "incidental" use. Yoga, however, is classified as "assembly." And that wouldn't work.
"It all goes by square footage and with yoga they could have 300 people in there," he said. "Then you'd need fire alarms, lighted exits."
I'm glad they were able to come to a solution. I don't know how others felt, but I completely agree with taking fire code seriously, and understand why we have a fire code. I also never said that they were not at fault - ignorance to the law isn't an excuse to not follow a law.
With that said, this is exhibit A on people's frustration with government:
- They were not trying to hide that they had a tap room. Everyone knew it, it was listed on their website, cars were around it when it was open.
- The inspectors had been coming for years and clearly saw it. You can't hide a tap room by throwing a sheet over it.
- By all accounts and reading quotes from them, they didn't know they were out of compliance. They sought the permits that they were told were needed, and received permits for what they sought.
- The Fire Marshall in the Business Journal quote even concurred with this in his quote.
My belief - if this experience actually improves the permitting process, COJ learns from this, and puts steps in place to (reasonably) ensure this doesn't happen again, then good all around and Jacksonville will be a better place for small business owners who are investing in the community. Like I said, based on the press I've read Bold City was at fault and was missing proper permits....but when you have a business owner asking the city to tell them what they needed and is told incomplete information, then COJ needs to learn too.
QuoteSo, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
I know, right?!? I mean, yoga presents a serious fire hazard... much more so than brewing or serving beer (both uses they are allowed to do based on their zoning). Thank the Good Lord in Heaven that the government saved those limber hippies from the evil, reckless brewery owners trying to take advantage of their admittedly hazy judgement while in a Zen-like state of mind, from sure fire death.
^^That's sarcasm, in case you didn't pick it up.
true libertarianism is as cluelessly idealistic and ignores human nature to the same degree as comrade marx. both are dumb.
privatize the fda? lol what could go wrong there. need to look in the mirror and do some thinking when your political ideology produces ideas like that gem
but back to the thread. beer and fire safety are super. k bye.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 07, 2017, 04:02:52 PM
QuoteSo, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
I know, right?!? I mean, yoga presents a serious fire hazard... much more so than brewing or serving beer (both uses they are allowed to do based on their zoning). Thank the Good Lord in Heaven that the government saved those limber hippies from the evil, reckless brewery owners trying to take advantage of their admittedly hazy judgement while in a Zen-like state of mind, from sure fire death.
^^That's sarcasm, in case you didn't pick it up.
I picked it up.
Apparently, having groups of people assemble in a building requires fire alarms and lighted exits. It's about the number of people, not the activity. But I'm sure you knew that.
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:05:45 PM
true libertarianism is as cluelessly idealistic and ignores human nature to the same degree as comrade marx. both are dumb.
privatize the fda? lol what could go wrong there. need to look in the mirror and do some thinking when your political ideology produces ideas like that gem
but back to the thread. beer and fire safety are super. k bye.
How much Marx have you read?
QuoteHow much Marx have you read?
really. I'm just using marx as euphemism for the leftiest of the left socialists as is quite common. but why don't you just tell me why you disagree or how much marx you've read, the real reason for your question.
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:25:35 PM
QuoteHow much Marx have you read?
really. I'm just using marx as euphemism for the leftiest of the left socialists as is quite common. but why don't you just tell me why you disagree or how much marx you've read, the real reason for your question.
My point is that many (if not most) of the sins people ascribe to Marx aren't really to be found in his writings. In fact, even the sins people ascribe to Marxists usually aren't consistent with their myriad beliefs.
yeah id agree- an astute sociological and economic observer as much as anything
but hard to say he's not a critic of capitalism, particularly the unadulterated version favored by libertarians
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:39:15 PM
yeah id agree- an astute sociological and economic observer as much as anything
but hard to say he's not a critic of capitalism, particularly the unadulterated version favored by libertarians
Yes, definitely a critic of capitalism. And a guy who (apparently) made a bit of money on the stock market!
The idea of privatizing the FDA is ludicrous.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZiGa3OUUAAOT2B.jpg)
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on July 07, 2017, 04:02:52 PM
QuoteSo, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
I know, right?!? I mean, yoga presents a serious fire hazard... much more so than brewing or serving beer (both uses they are allowed to do based on their zoning). Thank the Good Lord in Heaven that the government saved those limber hippies from the evil, reckless brewery owners trying to take advantage of their admittedly hazy judgement while in a Zen-like state of mind, from sure fire death.
^^That's sarcasm, in case you didn't pick it up.
I picked it up.
Apparently, having groups of people assemble in a building requires fire alarms and lighted exits. It's about the number of people, not the activity. But I'm sure you knew that.
Because two dozen people 'assembling' to do yoga and then purchasing beer, is somehow more of a fire hazard then 30 people 'incidentally' traveling to said location to purchase beer... or 9 people 'primarily' making beer in said location? Interesting interpretation of fire safety.
BTW, you're talking to someone that once had to pay the fire marshall $2,000 to have a couple of 'trained professionals' stand around for 6 hours to make sure no one caught fire in a building that had the correct number of fire exits and lighted fire signs per code. If they weren't 'government officials concerned about safety',,, that would be called extortion in the real world.
Additionally, this rash of incidents is not just confined to Bold City Brewery and CORK. Over the past month, the neighborhoods of North Riverside, Durkeeville, Brooklyn and Mixontown have been hit with these same 'sudden' fire safety violations. In fact, several buildings have come down as a result. The TU, Daily Record, etc haven't picked up on this.. but its been happening. That kind of 'coincidence' tends to raise an eyebrow to the discerning type of individual.
Quote from: fieldafm on July 07, 2017, 07:27:27 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on July 07, 2017, 04:02:52 PM
QuoteSo, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
I know, right?!? I mean, yoga presents a serious fire hazard... much more so than brewing or serving beer (both uses they are allowed to do based on their zoning). Thank the Good Lord in Heaven that the government saved those limber hippies from the evil, reckless brewery owners trying to take advantage of their admittedly hazy judgement while in a Zen-like state of mind, from sure fire death.
^^That's sarcasm, in case you didn't pick it up.
I picked it up.
Apparently, having groups of people assemble in a building requires fire alarms and lighted exits. It's about the number of people, not the activity. But I'm sure you knew that.
Because two dozen people 'assembling' to do yoga and then purchasing beer, is somehow more of a fire hazard then 30 people 'incidentally' traveling to said location to purchase beer... or 9 people 'primarily' making beer in said location? Interesting interpretation of fire safety.
BTW, you're talking to someone that once had to pay the fire marshall $2,000 to have a couple of 'trained professionals' stand around for 6 hours to make sure no one caught fire in a building that had the correct number of fire exits and lighted fire signs per code. If they weren't 'government officials concerned about safety',,, that would be called extortion in the real world.
Additionally, this rash of incidents is not just confined to Bold City Brewery and CORK. Over the past month, the neighborhoods of North Riverside, Durkeeville, Brooklyn and Mixontown have been hit with these same 'sudden' fire safety violations. In fact, several buildings have come down as a result. The TU, Daily Record, etc haven't picked up on this.. but its been happening. That kind of 'coincidence' tends to raise an eyebrow to the discerning type of individual.
don't get worked up, the new gadfly has been trying hard to fill the void that has been left by the old gadfly
Quote from: fieldafm on July 07, 2017, 07:27:27 PM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 04:14:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on July 07, 2017, 04:02:52 PM
QuoteSo, apparently the brewery were at fault. And it was a fire safety issue. Damn government!
I know, right?!? I mean, yoga presents a serious fire hazard... much more so than brewing or serving beer (both uses they are allowed to do based on their zoning). Thank the Good Lord in Heaven that the government saved those limber hippies from the evil, reckless brewery owners trying to take advantage of their admittedly hazy judgement while in a Zen-like state of mind, from sure fire death.
^^That's sarcasm, in case you didn't pick it up.
I picked it up.
Apparently, having groups of people assemble in a building requires fire alarms and lighted exits. It's about the number of people, not the activity. But I'm sure you knew that.
Because two dozen people 'assembling' to do yoga and then purchasing beer, is somehow more of a fire hazard then 30 people 'incidentally' traveling to said location to purchase beer... or 9 people 'primarily' making beer in said location? Interesting interpretation of fire safety.
BTW, you're talking to someone that once had to pay the fire marshall $2,000 to have a couple of 'trained professionals' stand around for 6 hours to make sure no one caught fire in a building that had the correct number of fire exits and lighted fire signs per code. If they weren't 'government officials concerned about safety',,, that would be called extortion in the real world.
Additionally, this rash of incidents is not just confined to Bold City Brewery and CORK. Over the past month, the neighborhoods of North Riverside, Durkeeville, Brooklyn and Mixontown have been hit with these same 'sudden' fire safety violations. In fact, several buildings have come down as a result. The TU, Daily Record, etc haven't picked up on this.. but its been happening. That kind of 'coincidence' tends to raise an eyebrow to the discerning type of individual.
As I understand the article, the brewery was only permitted to brew beer. So there would be a handful of people working there and there would be no need for the more robust fire safety measures (or the law didn't require them for that use). But since they have been operating a tap room (and having yoga classes), there are fire safety requirements that have not been met. I reckon those requirements were to protect the assembled public, not because the assembled public are a fire hazard.
It looks like the City have allowed a compromise, where they can continue to operate the unpermitted tap room, provided they limit the number of patrons. And no yoga. I can't see how this bothers anyone - clearly the brewery was in the wrong (insofar as they were using the property in ways it was not permitted for and without appropriate fire safety measures in place for those uses) and the City is working with it to resolve the issue (whilst allowing it to keep its tap room doors open). Sounds like a win-win to me.
Of course, there is the secondary issue of why this took 9 years to discover. That appears to be the City's main failing in this case and it should be investigated to find out why/how it happened.
As far as the "coincidence" you mention - well, are there violations or not? If there are, then I don't see the issue - except maybe the issue of historic lax enforcement (as above). If there aren't issues, then I'd totally agree. Of course, the original post from the brewery indicated that this was the result of the annual fire inspection. Nothing "sudden" or unexpected - just the result was unexpected.
But maybe your assumptions are colored by your past experience? I can't vouch for how well the fire marshall does his job. And I certainly can't comment on your particular situation. But when I see an uptick in enforcement, my mind doesn't necessarily jump to "conspiracy theory" right away.
I work for a regulator in the accountancy field and we regularly perform practice assurance visits to the firms licensed members. We have done a few things recently in order to do this more effectively (prioritised it in our departmental budget, threw more resources at it, refined the paramaters and approach for selecting members for review, etc). This inevitably led to people complaining when they received a letter advising them they'd been selected for a review - "I've been a member for 15 years and have never heard of this, etc, etc, etc". Now, we could be accused of not fulfilling our statutory obligations as anti money laundering regulators, but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye when we conduct a visit and a member isn't undertaking appropriate client due diligence.
Quote from: Apache on July 08, 2017, 01:04:46 AM
don't get worked up, the new gadfly has been trying hard to fill the void that has been left by the old gadfly
"Dumb."
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:39:15 PM
yeah id agree- an astute sociological and economic observer as much as anything
but hard to say he's not a critic of capitalism, particularly the unadulterated version favored by libertarians
Yes, definitely a critic of capitalism. And a guy who (apparently) made a bit of money on the stock market!
The idea of privatizing the FDA is ludicrous.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZiGa3OUUAAOT2B.jpg)
I think you have that confused with the government approved drinking water in Flint, Michigan.
Quote from: FSBA on July 08, 2017, 06:51:55 AM
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:39:15 PM
yeah id agree- an astute sociological and economic observer as much as anything
but hard to say he's not a critic of capitalism, particularly the unadulterated version favored by libertarians
Yes, definitely a critic of capitalism. And a guy who (apparently) made a bit of money on the stock market!
The idea of privatizing the FDA is ludicrous.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZiGa3OUUAAOT2B.jpg)
I think you have that confused with the government approved drinking water in Flint, Michigan.
It's drinking water that results from putting profits/costs ahead of people.
First, I have always found the Fire Marshal's office very reasonable to deal with. That said, their first reaction to anything is to insist on the most stringent and severe requirements found in the code. Then you negotiate based on the actual codes and the true needs of the project. It often goes easily but sometimes is a long and involved process as you yourself learn what the codes really are. And to some extent, so do the folks in the Fire Marshals office. The important thing is that the current Fire Marshal is more than willing to work with you and also learn as we all sometimes need to.
This issue with Bold City does not indicate to me that Bold City was doing anything purposefully wrong. Just as it does not make sense that the Fire Marshals office suddenly realized that Bold City was serving beer there. I would hazard a guess that somewhere an incident happened that has triggered a refresher in various code requirements and is causing a knee jerk reaction to occupancy issues with the inspectors directed to zero in on those issues. As we can see, after the initial closing, a way was found to get the tap room open again until both parties can figure out how to meet their respective responsibilities in a responsible way.
Another thing to realize is that Zoning often makes small and unintentional errors when things are assigned. Something unusual often gets categorized one way even when two things are happening. At first, it is fine because everyone knows. But later on as new folks get included in the mix, questions get raised. So, a COU that everyone knew included the tap room gets labeled as a brewery only and so years later gets called incorrect. It happens far more often that you would think. Unfortunately, the fix for issues like this can be involved and like fire safety issues, you need to know as much about the codes as the folks you are dealing with.
Permitting issues are often difficult as well and are so for the very same reasons. Existing Building code requirements get confused with New building requirements, the code used to permit it 9 years ago gets confused with the current codes, and so on and so on. This seems also to apply to this issue as well.
The Fire Marshall was simply doing his job. If a fire breaks out anywhere and there are not properly marked exits with unlocked exit doors or extinguishers in place, or a map of the facility in case fire men/women need to enter, then its his butt on the line. Sadly, most people think that the JFRD singled out BCB, they did not. They check EVERY facility yearly. We get inspected at our place of business, they want to see the extinguishers, the map of the space, make sure the water lines are good. Its all about public safety.
Kudos to JFRD for doing their job.