Results of the Boom: Dead Projects
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6829-8th_pearl_final.jpg)
With the real estate boom of the new century now over, Metro Jacksonville takes a look at major proposed projects that died or were indefinitely delayed.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/908
As depressing as this list is, I'm still stoked that the previous article was chock full of great projects that did get built.
The projects I was REALLY looking forward to was the Riverwatch Tower, Shipyards, and Brooklyn Park. Those three would have had the greatest impacts on not only the skyline, but on the potential to spawn more development on adjacent properties.
Seeing these pictures I am reminded of the optimism of a few years ago. Hopefully we get to a point where some of these projects become reality.
What's with the 200 Riverside monstrosity? Fingers crossed that thing doesn't wind up marring Riverside Ave.
Quote from: copperfiend on October 03, 2008, 09:02:46 AM
Seeing these pictures I am reminded of the optimism of a few years ago. Hopefully we get to a point where some of these projects become reality.
Agree there. It'd be interesting to see how many of these aborted projects ever get resurrected once the market conditions improve. The skyline would've been phenomenal if these had gone through. Holy cow.
A really loud voice in my head is saying something to me...how many of these projects were hurried along to the grave by the fact that our city and it's leaders are impossible to deal with? It seems those in power have a single mantra when it comes to downtown development: More parking lots, no creative mass-transit, and everyone go home after 5pm!
It's inexplicable, and if we care about our downtown, we need to start holding these people accountable. They are employed at our discretion, after all.
Which project had the rooftop restaurant and bar? I really wish we could have one here, as they're pretty cool when the weather's nice (check out Charleston for a good example).
While I'm a bit relieved some of the projects didn't move forward, it's a bit depressing to see all that could have been.
Quote from: duvalbill on October 03, 2008, 09:53:57 AM
Which project had the rooftop restaurant and bar? I really wish we could have one here, as they're pretty cool when the weather's nice (check out Charleston for a good example).
Although I think that was just rooftop common space, the project was "8th & Pearl" in Springfield.
Makes me want to cry, especially the projects in Springfield which is my stomping ground. A number of these projects fueled my early optimism as a downtown denizen. Now, like the stock market, my moods are up and down about the prospects for the future.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 03, 2008, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: duvalbill on October 03, 2008, 09:53:57 AM
Which project had the rooftop restaurant and bar? I really wish we could have one here, as they're pretty cool when the weather's nice (check out Charleston for a good example).
Although I think that was just rooftop common space, the project was "8th & Pearl" in Springfield.
Actually a majority of the rooftop space was in fact to be leased and operated by a restaurant/bar below...
I guess you learn something new everyday. Its unfortunate that this project is now a no go. It would have been a huge boost for Springfield.
Geez, very depressing. Not to pour salt on the wounds, but could you imagine how awesome our downtown and surrounding areas would've been had ALL of these projects were completed? But then again, could you imagine the traffic downtown?
I hadn't seen a few of these, Ocean Square is one of those rare cases where the plan looks far better then what we have. Though I love history, the Burns Library can't touch that for style.
Otherwise the St. John, Shipyards, St. James, JEA and City Center-Landing would indeed change downtown forever.
However take heart Jacksonville, we still have a full deck of cards to play if our leadership will lead (or just get out of the way).
CARD ONE: That new Courthouse will spur a rash of new development all through the neighborhood as large construction attracts more construction.
CARD TWO: We also have a very unique item in the Skyway, and used to our advantage, rather then sitting back - arms folded - saying NOT ONE MORE CENT, would attract many new faces to our development picture. Imagine the Shipyards or __________ being able to seek out new investors with the perk that we'll get an internal Skyway station. Simply lay out the route to the stadium or Riverside and get that land and those projects before the $$.
CARD THREE: Water taxi service to YOUR PROJECT, "Ya know, fellas we've been looking for a space to land 50-60 passengers at a time... such a deal."
CARD FOUR: That streetcar study, get those rails moving NOW, we can't stand in line forever waiting to do... we'll talk this to death, or we'll ride to victory. Remember about 80% of all TOD is Light Rail Related.
CARD FIVE: A darling NFL team, great location, fantastic weather, and this financial crash won't-can't last forever... Hey and if it does, and it all ends in war-smoke and ruin, give us about 7 years and JESUS will have some great financial plans!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: dknighton on October 03, 2008, 09:49:08 AM
A really loud voice in my head is saying something to me...how many of these projects were hurried along to the grave by the fact that our city and it's leaders are impossible to deal with?
probably none!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 03, 2008, 12:48:07 PM
CARD TWO: We also have a very unique item in the Skyway, and used to our advantage, rather then sitting back - arms folded - saying NOT ONE MORE CENT, would attract many new faces to our development picture. Imagine the Shipyards or __________ being able to seek out new investors with the perk that we'll get an internal Skyway station. Simply lay out the route to the stadium or Riverside and get that land and those projects before the $$.
I believe the Shipyards property is no longer in city control. There was a deal a few years ago that ended up with LandMar taking over all 44 acres. They had a pretty impressive development planned that went up in smoke when the market turned sour.
Can the Landing redevelopment failure be directly attributed to John Peyton?
Im curious "Stug" what would be marred on Riverside ave...
That project looks like a really nice one...
Oh yeah it would mar the view of another of the plethora of empty lots in and around downtown...
You never see people on the streets of these areas but there IS NOTHING BUT VACANT LOTS....
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 03, 2008, 12:48:07 PM
I hadn't seen a few of these, Ocean Square is one of those rare cases where the plan looks far better then what we have. Though I love history, the Burns Library can't touch that for style.
Otherwise the St. John, Shipyards, St. James, JEA and City Center-Landing would indeed change downtown forever.
However take heart Jacksonville, we still have a full deck of cards to play if our leadership will lead (or just get out of the way).
CARD ONE: That new Courthouse will spur a rash of new development all through the neighborhood as large construction attracts more construction.
CARD TWO: We also have a very unique item in the Skyway, and used to our advantage, rather then sitting back - arms folded - saying NOT ONE MORE CENT, would attract many new faces to our development picture. Imagine the Shipyards or __________ being able to seek out new investors with the perk that we'll get an internal Skyway station. Simply lay out the route to the stadium or Riverside and get that land and those projects before the $$.
CARD THREE: Water taxi service to YOUR PROJECT, "Ya know, fellas we've been looking for a space to land 50-60 passengers at a time... such a deal."
CARD FOUR: That streetcar study, get those rails moving NOW, we can't stand in line forever waiting to do... we'll talk this to death, or we'll ride to victory. Remember about 80% of all TOD is Light Rail Related.
CARD FIVE: A darling NFL team, great location, fantastic weather, and this financial crash won't-can't last forever... Hey and if it does, and it all ends in war-smoke and ruin, give us about 7 years and JESUS will have some great financial plans!
OCKLAWAHA
I'm glad we at least agree on the mass transit front because that design for Ocean Square is horrendous, minus the interaction they were creating at street level.
What is the current status of the Ambassador Hotel? This building has a lot of potential.
I believe that despite of this list, I think that most of these projects can still become a reality. :) Keep the Faith. 8)
walking around at Art Walk, as i did Wednesday, was very eerie due to bills posted in every vacant window, with only a few hot spots: burrito gallery/old library/florida theatre, hemming plaza/main library, and that "wonderful" bay street nightlife "district". seems like so much empty space, so much time gone by, so little (fill in the blank)?
while most of those projects look great, lets keep in mind that it would have been a disaster if they all, or even a few too many, went vertical at the same time. Traffic issues would have no time to be resolved, our city would absolutely not have given any ground to aspiring developers, and once all the projects were completed the core would be understaffed, overcrowded, and would have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. What I take out of this article is that while the projects are dead or delayed, it as we all know was more a function of the collapse of the market nationally; not the potential of the core of our city. The developers are still out there and I believe we will get some of these projects in a more manageable order. Keep your heads up! We want the core to grow steadily, not an un-sustainable boom of artificial demand.
QuoteI'm glad we at least agree on the mass transit front because that design for Ocean Square is horrendous, minus the interaction they were creating at street level.
Joe, and others, my comments on Ocean Square are based on this one and only image that I saw. You might be comepletely right and I might have joined in the fight to stop it. But on the surface, it looked so much better then what we now have in the same locale. Remember I was building MASS TRANSIT at darn near 13,000 feet at the time, so maybe the altitude had something to do with my comments! hee hee. OCKLAWAHA
I go by the place that was supposed to be the Liberty Lofts quite a bit and for the past couple of weeks they've been cleaning it out, anyone know what's going on? Looks like all the window panels were taken out and I've seen people carrying stuff out into a dumpster.
I guess at least for the Liberty Lofts, it wasn't so much the economy as it was the neighbors that did it in.
Something absolutely has got to take form in the Brooklyn area eventually. Every day that I drive past there to work, (I work for the bad guys, FIDELITY) I just can't get over how beautiful the whole strip is. To me it has such amazing walkablilty, and would be the perfect place for just about any kind of retail or to even simply turn into a park. It's a real shame the project didn't come to fruition. Has there been anything else proposed for it somewhere down the line?
:'( Once again the story of Jacksonville, well atleast all is not to blame on city leaders, you can hope things will get better in the market and city leaders will work with and not againts projects and get moving along quicker. I always wonder if the court house, landing and shipyards had been built on schedule what else might have also.
To me it's more frustrating than depressing thinking what could have been; however, I feel that our City leaders could have moved forward on the majority of these projects, much more quickly, before the boom busted and the floor collapsed; then at least half or more of these projects would have been gracing our skylines today, and, we could have used many of these great projects, had they been built, as a marketing tool to lure more people into the City. I firmly believe that though most or even possibly all of the Country is suffering right now from this severe economic downturn and housing bust, Jacksonville is faring way better than most major cities.
Our City Leaders are too slow, and too lazy when it comes to new projects such as these. Now the Kuhn projects I believe are the ones that would not have come to fruition even if City Leaders had rushed them through to possible approval; anyhoo, frustrating and a bit angry to see this. Quite a lot of cancelled and dead projects...such a shame.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: downtownjag on October 03, 2008, 08:20:08 PM
while most of those projects look great, lets keep in mind that it would have been a disaster if they all, or even a few too many, went vertical at the same time. Traffic issues would have no time to be resolved, our city would absolutely not have given any ground to aspiring developers, and once all the projects were completed the core would be understaffed, overcrowded, and would have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. What I take out of this article is that while the projects are dead or delayed, it as we all know was more a function of the collapse of the market nationally; not the potential of the core of our city. The developers are still out there and I believe we will get some of these projects in a more manageable order. Keep your heads up! We want the core to grow steadily, not an un-sustainable boom of artificial demand.
We can live with most of the "fuss," that would occur with numerous construction projects going at once, that you list in your post. Eventually, after construction is complete, everything would be sorted out. The key is to ensure that City Leaders carefully plan, way in advance, to sort out these problems before construction begins. That's why we pay people in City Government to plan and invent ways to prevent the type of disorder that you mention during major construction projects and phases. Miami is a prime example. I'll bet at present there are 20 or more cranes in the air which indicates numerous projects under construction at one time, and all of the debacles you mention are not a huge issue in Miami. That's why the people in power get paid the big bucks, to take care of these type issues as required. We can live with these things if City Leaders plan carefully BEFORE they begin construction on them.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: heights unknown on October 04, 2008, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: downtownjag on October 03, 2008, 08:20:08 PM
while most of those projects look great, lets keep in mind that it would have been a disaster if they all, or even a few too many, went vertical at the same time. Traffic issues would have no time to be resolved, our city would absolutely not have given any ground to aspiring developers, and once all the projects were completed the core would be understaffed, overcrowded, and would have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. What I take out of this article is that while the projects are dead or delayed, it as we all know was more a function of the collapse of the market nationally; not the potential of the core of our city. The developers are still out there and I believe we will get some of these projects in a more manageable order. Keep your heads up! We want the core to grow steadily, not an un-sustainable boom of artificial demand.
I agree that we may have been able to sort out the mess and life would go on, but there are a few things we may not see eye to eye on. I don't believe that Miami is a good example of the amount of construction our city can handle at once. Miami has seen a boom before and has an established core which can handle an influx of population. Jacksonville currently has almost nothing in place to please downtown residents; I live down here and I love it but friends from established cities wouldn't consider moving because of the necessities not in place. I know that you didn't mean Jacksonville could literally handle 20 cranes at once but I think even half of that would have been an overload of product and a relfection of over-estimated demand. Another discussion worth looking into is the influx of crime we would have see, with the northside breathing down the neck of affluent downtown residents, but that is besides the point.
I also agree that it is important to have city leaders in place that can plan for the influx before it occurs; and I believe in our leaders, but there is only so much they can do. Don't get me wrong, I am on the same side of the fence as you when it comes to downtown development, I am just arguing that we should grow smart and for the longterm.
We can live with most of the "fuss," that would occur with numerous construction projects going at once, that you list in your post. Eventually, after construction is complete, everything would be sorted out. The key is to ensure that City Leaders carefully plan, way in advance, to sort out these problems before construction begins. That's why we pay people in City Government to plan and invent ways to prevent the type of disorder that you mention during major construction projects and phases. Miami is a prime example. I'll bet at present there are 20 or more cranes in the air which indicates numerous projects under construction at one time, and all of the debacles you mention are not a huge issue in Miami. That's why the people in power get paid the big bucks, to take care of these type issues as required. We can live with these things if City Leaders plan carefully BEFORE they begin construction on them.
Heights Unknown
Quote from: downtownjag on October 03, 2008, 08:20:08 PM
while most of those projects look great, lets keep in mind that it would have been a disaster if they all, or even a few too many, went vertical at the same time. Traffic issues would have no time to be resolved, our city would absolutely not have given any ground to aspiring developers, and once all the projects were completed the core would be understaffed, overcrowded, and would have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. What I take out of this article is that while the projects are dead or delayed, it as we all know was more a function of the collapse of the market nationally; not the potential of the core of our city. The developers are still out there and I believe we will get some of these projects in a more manageable order. Keep your heads up! We want the core to grow steadily, not an un-sustainable boom of artificial demand.
This pretty much describes the situation that was created by suburban growth over the past 10 years.
agreed, although evidently I need to learn how to quote a quote, see above 8)
Yeah, I'm with dtjag on this one. Maybe it's because I always look for the bright side of things, but I think that had many of these projects pushed forth just before the real estate bubble burst, we'd have lots of empty high-rises downtown now. The silver lining we should all remember is that we want smart and sustained growth that will put us in a good position in the long run.
When the housing market returns, hopefully we can resume that slow but steady development in the core.
I would also be pretty suprised if there were more than 5 or 6 cranes in downtown Miami right now
Quote from: downtownjag on October 05, 2008, 02:31:07 PM
I would also be pretty suprised if there were more than 5 or 6 cranes in downtown Miami right now
There's more than that. I know there's a few projects rising in Brickell right now and I see at least six in this one shot looking north.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2902661512_26b04bbf2c_b.jpg)
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=477774&page=90
I am suprised lakelander. Look at that picture and count how many developers wish they weren't paying rent on non-profitable cranes right now. They are all collecting dust. I don't care if those are residential, office, or mixed-used projects. Now is an awful time to build. Construction costs are way up, in every sector, besides labor. I don't know if you are arguing the amount of cranes in Miami or the feasability of building in Jacksonville but in my opinion you are way off.
I'm not off, there are six cranes in the image. That's the only point I was trying to make. As for now being an awful time to build, I believe it ultimately depends on the type of project you're developing and the market you're targeting. Even in today's economic conditions, you can't paint every single project with one broad brush.
Agreed, and I apologize for coming off strongly. I have read many of your posts and I respect your opinion. Long term, I agree that most of those cranes will turn into profitable investments. Go Jaguars
No need to apologize. Some of the cranes in Miami may be office developments. Its an international business center, so some of the companies down there may not be suffering.
As for Jax, I think we have to remember that not all proposals come to light. Despite the dead and delayed list, we saw a number of new projects rise in the urban core over the first half of this decade. There are many similar sized cities across the US that can't say the same.
QuoteI would also be pretty suprised if there were more than 5 or 6 cranes in downtown Miami right now
Sorry guys, Miami might even close the population gap (in spite of our consolidation) if you check the world high rise forums they have over 70 new projects. As far as I know, all 70 are up from the dust, how many will be done is anyones guess. Bottom line, they will leave us in their dust, or we'll get the few financial survivors when the rest of their developers jump out of 90 story windows and splatter on Flagler.
We just didn't get into the boom until it was over, as usual, typical Jacksonville foot dragging. But in the end this might have been a good thing for local financial institutions. OCKLAWAHA
Its unfair to compare Jax with Miami. Metro Miami is five times larger than Metro Jax and was the site of the largest urban boom in America over the last couple of years. Also, there have been several projects in Miami that have been canceled as well. However, that place is just on a different level.
I don't agree Lake, in 1900, we were far ahead of Miami, 1940-60 we were neck and neck, comes the AFL and the POST FLAGLER ERA and Miami metro Skyrockets past us. Dallas got it's NFL team with a population of about 600,000 - 800,000 then rocketed past us. Ditto Tampa. It's our turn now, good team or bad, we can't pay for the commercials we got last night. This sort of thing makes every television game a WIN for Jacksonville. With our space and our river, we could overtake Miami before, my wires are depowered, I'm labeled "NOT IN SERVICE" and go to the big carbarn in the Sky.
"I'm a believer!"
OCKLAWAHA
I can go ahead and say about the Miami image. The 4 cranes in the lower right of the picture are part of Metropolitan Miami development. They are working on phase 2 (MET2), which is a 47-story office tower, and an ajoining 42-story Marriott Marquis hotel.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 06, 2008, 09:00:54 AM
I don't agree Lake, in 1900, we were far ahead of Miami, 1940-60 we were neck and neck, comes the AFL and the POST FLAGLER ERA and Miami metro Skyrockets past us. Dallas got it's NFL team with a population of about 600,000 - 800,000 then rocketed past us. Ditto Tampa. It's our turn now, good team or bad, we can't pay for the commercials we got last night. This sort of thing makes every television game a WIN for Jacksonville. With our space and our river, we could overtake Miami before, my wires are depowered, I'm labeled "NOT IN SERVICE" and go to the big carbarn in the Sky.
"I'm a believer!"
OCKLAWAHA
When we forget about imaginary municipal city limit lines and look at metro area population, you'll see those places were already signficantly larger than us as far back as 1950. Metro Miami was almost twice the size as Metro Jax (579,017 vs. 304,029) and Metro Tampa was larger as well (409,113 vs. 304,029). In 1950, Dallas was much larger (1,136,144 vs. 304,029).
link to numbers: http://www.demographia.com/dm-usmet-fr50.htm
Our day as the true un-contested big dog in Florida peaked somewhere between 1880 and 1900. Excluding Orlando, during the last 100 years, we were never significantly larger than these other places. We can probably blame Flagler and Plant for extending the railroad across the St. Johns to South and Central Florida. I believe in the future of Jacksonville, but I also accept the notion that urban centers like Miami, San Francisco, Dallas, NYC, Chicago, etc. are on a completely different level due to shear size.
Quote from: reednavy on October 06, 2008, 09:31:25 AM
I can go ahead and say about the Miami image. The 4 cranes in the lower right of the picture are part of Metropolitan Miami development. They are working on phase 2 (MET2), which is a 47-story office tower, and an ajoining 42-story Marriott Marquis hotel.
Thanks for the update. Considering the lack of commercial projects during Miami's condo boom period, there may be some untapped demand for office and hotel space serving that urban core's higher population base.
Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2008, 09:24:08 AM
I think that the real problem we have downtown is the boneheaded impulse to tear down structures on the mere possibility that there might be a development.
I think it might turn out that we actually tore down more than we built during this last 'boom'.
Good point. The failure of many of these projects have nothing to do with places like Miami or anywhere else. Some projects, like the St. James and St. Johns Point, were pie-in-the sky. On the other hand, the courthouse delay alone is probably responsible for the lack of movement of at least four (323 Duval, Ambassador Hotel, Jones Furniture Building and old JEA Tower conversion). Politics are part of the blame for the Landing's expansion plans dying and Kuhn's projects not being further along before he went under (ex. the chilled water line issue with Riverwatch, the Barnett and the Laura Trio. Some others, like new public library, took out buildings that already had positive uses taking place in them. Just imagine if the new library had been built on Main Street's surface parking lots to complement the now demolished loft district and Rhodes Furniture Building. The complete lack of a general downtown vision has limited the potential positive impact of many new infill projects by allowing the demolition of older buildings that would have been ideal for use by urban pioneers and small business owners. The buildings lost were the important fabric needed to bring the scattered newer projects together to create one larger vibrant area of urban synergy.
Lake, I know you are right on the ambassador; I asked the source a couple of months ago. That is one of my favorite possible's downtown right now. What is Riverwatch?
Safely can agree, thank God the St. James wasn't built. Our city didn't need a new tallest that looked like a big white box, and was completely out of place and location.
It's in the very article you're posting on. :P Scroll up to find it.
"River Watch at City Centre"
One of Cameron Kuhn's pies in the sky. Would've filled in the skyline really nicely, though.
Quote from: downtownjag on October 06, 2008, 08:32:23 PM
What is Riverwatch?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on October 06, 2008, 09:25:16 PM
It's in the very article you're posting on. :P Scroll up to find it.
"River Watch at City Centre"
One of Cameron Kuhn's pies in the sky. Would've filled in the skyline really nicely, though.
Quote from: downtownjag on October 06, 2008, 08:32:23 PM
What is Riverwatch?
Ahh yes, thank you.
I'm gonna ramble a bit before I go to sleep. I apologize in advance.
Sure, from the standpoint of civic pride, it might be cool if Jax had remained and always was the king of the state. If kids all over the state of Florida grew up wanting to move to the big city and that city was Jacksonville. But as things stand now, I don't necessarily want Jacksonville to grow and develop at the expense of the rest of the state. If that's the only way, then I'll take it, but I'd much rather the entire region grow and improve together even if it means Jax always plays second or third fiddle to the other cities to our south. Don't get me wrong, I share everyone's vision of the potential in this city and the natural advantages we have here that could, and perhaps should have, put us at the top all along. But I just want to avoid the idea that we must be the best in the state to the detriment of the rest of the area. Instead, I just want us to be the best we can be, period. (And maybe I'm the only one who has lost sight of this, in which case I'm just writing to remind myself of this fact)
If our population is to double in the next 30 years as projected, I'll gladly take a Floridian Megalopolis that rivals the one up in the Northeast. Miami = Boston, Keys = Cape Cod (et al), Tampa = Philly, Orlando - NYC (i guess...), Sarasota = Providence, Jax = DC, Daytona = Baltimore (hehe)
And then Arizona can become what Florida once was.
I feel bad about leaving out West Palm...maybe they'll be Hartford.
I agree. There's room for positive growth in all of Florida's cities.
I just hope all the room that is left is not consumed. The entire country needs to greatly restrict its development boundaires, enhance water consumption restrictions, and greatly reduce polution. Once of Jacksonville's greatest assets is the pristene wilderness that surrounds us. Central Florida is the very example of what sprawl will do to the overall health of a region all for the sake of development. We need to have some natural Florida and USA left for our children to enjoy.
Most definately. As Miami has shown during its boom, we can grow through infill development and allowing higher densities in certain areas, as opposed to spreading outward like a virus.
Agreed. (with you both). Definitely one of the growing concerns as we move further into the 21st century.
There was a story a few months ago on one of the NPR/PRI news programs about the expected population growth in Florida (which I was referencing when I said something like doubling by 2040) and they discussed the likelihood of our state even being able to sustain such a large population.
Our aquifer is drying up, tapping the rivers is already causing concerns, polution of our aquatic resources is causing concerns, and aging sprawling infrastructure is becomming more and more expensive to maintain. I doubt this state will support a doubleing population without some serious rethinking of our water supply, polution control, and development regulations.
IMO, water is going to be one of the top issues facing our generation. Desalinization on a massive scale needs to happen yesterday and we need to abandon deep aquifer wells and stop pumping polution into our waterways.
The Lofts at East Union and Bishopgate are my 2 faves not built.
(http://www.ameliaclark.com/wesley_rebelyell.jpg)
TIME FOR ANOTHER REVOLT! ;D QuoteOur aquifer is drying up, tapping the rivers is already causing concerns, polution of our aquatic resources is causing concerns, and aging sprawling infrastructure is becomming more and more expensive to maintain. I doubt this state will support a doubleing population without some serious rethinking of our water supply, polution control, and development regulations.
IMO, water is going to be one of the top issues facing our generation. Desalinization on a massive scale needs to happen yesterday and we need to abandon deep aquifer wells and stop pumping polution into our waterways
(http://www.whiskeysammlung.de/Bilder%20klein/Rebel%20yell.jpg)
Pure Southern InspirationJason, I've long thought we North Florida folks should take care of this problem once and for all. Let's build a 30' high dam across the state from Just south of Daytona, Mount Dora, Brooksville, and out into the gulf. We'll tell Tampa - Orlando - Miami and all of south Florida they can have all the water they want, about the time the St. Johns, Ocklawaha and Withlacoochee Rivers, overtop the spillways, we shouldn't hear any more from them... Bubble...bubble....blurp!
Another Ocklawaha Plan inspired by the Spirits of the old South - 1849 vintage!
SMILE! (If you REALLY want some fun check out the Rebel Yell Website! http://rebelyellwhiskey.com/ ) Ocklawaha
What is the difference between dead and indefinitely delayed?
The liberty loft building was recently bought by a developer from Riverside. SWM builders. He is gutting the second floor and is going to put 9 loft style apartments there. He is leasing out the bottom space to a business...but the offices that line liberty street with all the windows...he is talking about leasing those out (cheap) as artist studios. He is making some great headway! I'm excited he is moving forward with this project in this market...it is great for Springfield!
Wow. Great update. Hopefully, it will be the catalyst needed to kick off additional loft style development in the warehouse district.
Quote from: shawnsoldit on October 11, 2008, 12:32:37 AM
The liberty loft building was recently bought by a developer from Riverside. SWM builders. He is gutting the second floor and is going to put 9 loft style apartments there. He is leasing out the bottom space to a business...but the offices that line liberty street with all the windows...he is talking about leasing those out (cheap) as artist studios. He is making some great headway! I'm excited he is moving forward with this project in this market...it is great for Springfield!
Well, I suppose we can scratch The Liberty Lofts off the Dead Projects list :D. I predict that it will say the same for others (maybe just a few). Hopefully, we may see a few high rise project get scratched off the Dead Projects list someday soon. Keep the Faith 8)!
A lot of projects will come back to life when the real estate and credit markets loosen up a bit. Right now it is very hard for even credible developers and earnest potential buyers to get loans to buy property.
I don't think we really know what we are asking for. Besides the traffic that has been mentioned several times, this would be a disaster if even 60% of these projects were built. Downtown Jax is already struggling to keep office occupancy high. And (dead horse alert) they are not enough lifestyle choices for downtown Jax for residents. PLUS, exactly where is this surge of population going to come from. Many are complaining that these didn't get built but who will live in these $200K+ condos and what companies will fill these several hundred offices that would have been built. Slow and steady is what we need from city officials and developers. We have to be realistic in what we expect. Final note. I heard Cameron Kuhn speak shortly before everyone knew that the market had tanked. His philosophy was a 'field of dreams.' "If you build it, they will come." Partly, yes. More, no.
Well in a lieu of all that, we should still keep the faith. Things are looking up. Honestly, I'm an optimist 8). I think that we can still see a select few (if not most) of these dead and indefinately delayed project come back alive. And I'm not trying to beat up a dead horse, either. lol :D.
Quote from: dowtown-entrepreneur on October 16, 2008, 04:25:49 PM
I don't think we really know what we are asking for. Besides the traffic that has been mentioned several times, this would be a disaster if even 60% of these projects were built. Downtown Jax is already struggling to keep office occupancy high. And (dead horse alert) they are not enough lifestyle choices for downtown Jax for residents. PLUS, exactly where is this surge of population going to come from. Many are complaining that these didn't get built but who will live in these $200K+ condos and what companies will fill these several hundred offices that would have been built. Slow and steady is what we need from city officials and developers. We have to be realistic in what we expect. Final note. I heard Cameron Kuhn speak shortly before everyone knew that the market had tanked. His philosophy was a 'field of dreams.' "If you build it, they will come." Partly, yes. More, no.
That's why we have leaders and elected officials in our City that get paid the big bucks; to sort something like this out when it does happen! So don't worry, if thse developments come back to life, then it is someone's job and responsibility to support the increased traffic, utilities, and other headaches associated with it.
Heights Unknown
Obviously, deeply saddened by the dead and indefinitely delayed projects. However, The Landing project doesn't bother me so much. I would really like to see it revitalized, but the design looks jumbled and messy to me. I've never liked Tony Sleiman's design too much stucco, I think more glass would look better.
So I was reading the latest Fall issue of "Making Moves", JTA's magazine today (don't ask me why), and I noticed something surprising.
On page 6 they have an article titled "Transit -Orientated Developments Still Moving Forward".
In it they talk about (and show renderings of) two 200 Riverside Ave projects (a Marriot brand hotel & an office building), a Laura Street project, Bay Street Station, and SkyWay changes.
The article, and players involved, make it sound like all of these are very much alive and are simply waiting for the right things to happen. Alex Coley (200 Riverside Ave) says construction on his project will begin around the first of year even!
I would link the magazine from JTA's website, but it's not posted yet (the Spring 2009 edition is the last one posted)
Anyone know more information about these?
Also, fyi, there is an article on the bus stop signage as well. And last but not least - I thought it was neat that JTA passes can be purchased at all Walgreens now...much more convenient.
Quote from: dowtown-entrepreneur on October 16, 2008, 04:25:49 PM
I don't think we really know what we are asking for. Besides the traffic that has been mentioned several times, this would be a disaster if even 60% of these projects were built. Downtown Jax is already struggling to keep office occupancy high. And (dead horse alert) they are not enough lifestyle choices for downtown Jax for residents. PLUS, exactly where is this surge of population going to come from. Many are complaining that these didn't get built but who will live in these $200K+ condos and what companies will fill these several hundred offices that would have been built. Slow and steady is what we need from city officials and developers. We have to be realistic in what we expect. Final note. I heard Cameron Kuhn speak shortly before everyone knew that the market had tanked. His philosophy was a 'field of dreams.' "If you build it, they will come." Partly, yes. More, no.
Yeah but we want to be a part of it and/or see it all happen; we don't want to be pushing up daisies after and while it is all happening.
Heights Unknown
Well, if construction is set to begin on 200 Riverside Ave like the article said.....then that's a good thing in my book. The renderings look great.
Traffic we can deal with. It is a good time to build. But where do the people come from to move into all those lofts and condos?
Once "they" complained about not having residential units downtown. Now some are built and open but empty. Two of them ran a long standing 80+ year old construciton company into the ground. If half of these were built there would be just a lot more empty residential units. Build it and they will come doesn't always work.
Quote from: Overstreet on November 18, 2009, 09:12:33 AM
Traffic we can deal with. It is a good time to build. But where do the people come from to move into all those lofts and condos?
Once "they" complained about not having residential units downtown. Now some are built and open but empty. Two of them ran a long standing 80+ year old construciton company into the ground. If half of these were built there would be just a lot more empty residential units. Build it and they will come doesn't always work.
If you assume a linear growth model. I think growth will be exponential. Once the downtown market reaches a critical point, it will instigate a shifting of the population and fuel its own growth at a rapid pace.
SWM is the developer who built out the space for Walker's at Post & King and they have done another warehouse project in springfield. This might be the same one, if so the name has changed since I last heard about it.
Does anybody have any updates on the projects listed here as postponed?
Using 1000 units for Brooklyn Park, assuming 5 units per floor for everything that didn't give an exact unit number, and excluding the Ortega project, I got a total of 8,570 units in the core neighborhoods. Assuming even just 1.5 people per unit, that's 12,855 potential new people living in or right around downtown.
While I would say that developments like Commodore Point, The St. James, San Marco Village and The St. John wouldn't have done much for street level activity around their actual buildings, those people would shop at a downtown grocer or patronize downtown venues pretty regularly.
I more wish that the smaller projects would have been completed. I don't know about you guys, but i LOVE the Oak Street Lofts.
Wow that was depressing to read.
Please tell me there is a way to revive these projects or somehow bring them back.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 19, 2010, 03:24:49 PM
Using 1000 units for Brooklyn Park, assuming 5 units per floor for everything that didn't give an exact unit number, and excluding the Ortega project, I got a total of 8,570 units in the core neighborhoods. Assuming even just 1.5 people per unit, that's 12,855 potential new people living in or right around downtown.
While I would say that developments like Commodore Point, The St. James, San Marco Village and The St. John wouldn't have done much for street level activity around their actual buildings, those people would shop at a downtown grocer or patronize downtown venues pretty regularly.
I more wish that the smaller projects would have been completed. I don't know about you guys, but i LOVE the Oak Street Lofts.
But instead those people wanted to move out to the sprawl of Oakleaf & 210 for their McMansions, which leads us to today.
This reall is some sad commentary.
Gee fella's............downtown core is getting a new "Gas Station/Quickie Store"! Those urban outdoorsmen will have a new place to party at now! A proper urban infill would not require auto's for movement, but I guess that shoots BRT down also! The more I think about this......just importing urban sprawl and all associated with it.............but thats just me, IMHO!
Quote from: acme54321 on August 19, 2010, 02:51:56 PM
Does anybody have any updates on the projects listed here as postponed?
Quote from: Anti redneck on August 19, 2010, 07:02:51 PM
Please tell me there is a way to revive these projects or somehow bring them back.
Add to the list : Annie Lytle School 650 Chelsea St. 130 unit (with 3 story addition on the back) 55 and up retirement facility. Dead
Good article. Sign of the times .
back from the dead
Any updates?
http://jacksonville.com/business/2013-10-06/story/san-marco-project-back-motion
Anyone know what the status is on the parking garage across from the Landing? I thought the proposal cleared all regulatory hurdles, but haven't heard/see any updates in maybe a year or more.
This is the latest news...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,16101.105.html
Wow, looking at this list really emphasizes how crazy the real estate bubble was. Where were all the people supposed to come from to fill all these residential buildings? It would be an interesting dynamic if today there were thousands of empty residential spaces downtown. Who knows what that might've attracted.
That's what happened in Miami. Thousands of empty foreclosed units that ended up being eventually filled as that market rebounded. Now that downtown has enough residents to attract retail and more residents.
Yeah, but as you yourself said, Miami is on a different level than Jacksonville.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2008, 07:12:31 AM
Its unfair to compare Jax with Miami. Metro Miami is five times larger than Metro Jax and was the site of the largest urban boom in America over the last couple of years. Also, there have been several projects in Miami that have been canceled as well. However, that place is just on a different level.
Some of these proposed projects would never have gotten off the ground even without the bust. But if others had, downtown would be in a better position than it is. The current owners would have every incentive to fill them up or convert to apartments. We currently only have a few thousand residences in all of downtown, and they're almost entirely full. There's a demand for living downtown, but it isn't enough to convince most investors to do expensive infill or conversions after so many people took a bath in 2008.
Looking at this project list, I actually see hope not despair. Sure most of them seem like pie in the sky stuff, and they are. But several have moved forward as something else or at least a different version of the proposed original.
Brooklyn Park
220/200 Riverside
East San Marco (Perpetually in limbo)
Jax Landing Redevelopment (Seems like more movement than ever on this)
Laura Trio moving forward
Laura Trio Garage (Hopefully moving forward or else the Trio might not be)
One 12 (Barnett Bank moving forward)
Liberty Lofts (Actually converted to Paul Davis Restoration)
Oak Street Lofts (Now Black Sheep)
605 West Beaver (Clara White Renovation)
Probably some more I don't recognize. Some of these are bigger and some are smaller than the original proposal, but still there is good things happening.
I think the two projects that did not materialize that I am most disappointed about are The old JEA Tower project and Riverwatch at City Centre. These two would have made an enormous difference in our DT skyline.
Quote from: finehoe on January 30, 2015, 09:22:33 AM
Yeah, but as you yourself said, Miami is on a different level than Jacksonville.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 06, 2008, 07:12:31 AM
Its unfair to compare Jax with Miami. Metro Miami is five times larger than Metro Jax and was the site of the largest urban boom in America over the last couple of years. Also, there have been several projects in Miami that have been canceled as well. However, that place is just on a different level.
Different level but it doesn't mean the result wouldn't have been similar...at a much smaller scale. I think what's happening in Springfield is a similar example. Several lost their shirts when the real estate market blew up. However, reduced prices on available inventory lowered the entry barrier for others. Now there's a lot of small scale redevelopment going on again.
Quote from: Bridges on January 30, 2015, 10:16:04 AM
East San Marco (Perpetually in limbo)
Jax Landing Redevelopment (Seems like more movement than ever on this)
I actually think that those two statuses should be flip-flopped. I'm currently more optimistic about East San Marco, than the Landing making any changes anytime soon.
Bringing this article back from the dead. Interesting to see how much has changed and how much has stayed the same in 17 years. Seems like we're experiencing the most movement DT since the 2000's boom
A side note: The location on quite a few of these projects are unclear. Does anyone know the exact location of the below projects?
The Lofts at East Union
The St James Hotel
St Johns Point
St Johns Village
San Marco Riverfront District
San Marco Village
Also found this cool related thread from 2005: https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/11615-unbuilt-jacksonville/#comments (https://forum.urbanplanet.org/topic/11615-unbuilt-jacksonville/#comments)
Wow! Great find! This brings back some memories. Time flies. I'm "Bobliocatt". A crazy moderator on Urbanplanet changed my discussion board name to that right around the time we launched MetJax, which became MetroJacksonville, which ultimately moved on to Modern Cities and the Jaxson. Its crazy that these photobucket galleries are still around after 20 years.
QuoteA side note: The location on quite a few of these projects are unclear. Does anyone know the exact location of the below projects?
The Lofts at East Union - This is where 7-Eleven (now Chevron) is located on Main between State and Union Streets.
The St James Hotel - This was planned near APR and East Bay Street, basically where MOSH 2.0 is currently proposed.
St Johns Point - This is the industrial area just east of WJCT near Commodores Point.
St Johns Village - My memory is fuzzy but I believe this was planned on the Southbank where the Penisula and Strand eventually were built.
San Marco Riverfront District - This may be the old JEA Southside Generation plant was located.
San Marco Village - This is the hotel property on the Southbank where Charthouse is located.
Wow. Some of these are new to me. I remember the old renderings from the old MetJax site. I wish you all would post some of those in a new Jaxon story. Fun reading the comments.
^I was thinking the same thing after taking a stroll down memory lane.
We dodged a bullet with the Main Library designs. Those 3 rejected ones were terrible.
RiverPointe too, terrible design.
Agreed, the current library has aged gracefully and is easily the nicest library in the state
Quote from: Zac T on June 20, 2025, 12:17:31 PM
Agreed, the current library has aged gracefully and is easily the nicest library in the state
100% agree.
It's a beautiful library, with a great staff, and the city has done a great job maintaining it.
Broken record, but would love to see the Main Library & Friends of JWJ form a true partnership, with some city investment behind it, to make the park an extension of the library, and the library & its retail bays an extension of the park.