A Tale of Two Parks
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2608-p1040926.JPG)
A quick visual lesson on the Do's and Don't's of urban park planning.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/872
So sad. I mean do we even need to discuss this? I guess when you don't visit parks, it is pretty hard to design one. Next time Peyton should maybe ask the free advice of a local gardener, a 10 year old child, or really anyone who lives downtown. You know it would be great for him to leave his office every once in awhile and walk around a bit. Perhaps he could check out the Main Street Park! He can read the historical plaques, watch the water in the fountain and then gather his family around a picnic table after the children are done playing. Oh wait. :-[ Sorry family. "I messed up."
Im really not sure what this article is trying to articulate. What are the bad aspects of Jacksonville's Pocket park versus Detroits?
It appears in your selective photos that you are trying to show that Jacksonville's homeless gather in the pocket park, where as by some stroke of genius detroits park is so clean and well planned that no homeless ever relax in the detroit park..
Weak article, and weak argument.
The Main Street pocket park is a disaster. Every time I go to the library, I am reminded of the city's finest homeless park. It is littered with trash and some things I'd rather not mention. It was a huge waste money. And I have no doubt that when the next golden child is elected mayor, nothing will be done to the property.
Quote from: TD* on September 01, 2008, 09:21:29 AM
Im really not sure what this article is trying to articulate. What are the bad aspects of Jacksonville's Pocket park versus Detroits?
It appears in your selective photos that you are trying to show that Jacksonville's homeless gather in the pocket park, where as by some stroke of genius detroits park is so clean and well planned that no homeless ever relax in the detroit park..
Weak article, and weak argument.
Did you actually look at the pictures or are you just assuming?
Also, its not that Jacksonville's park was poorly planned, it just doesnt have the same features that Detroit's has. Detroits park does have several nice things in it, but you have to think this way, how much did it cost to create detroits park versus Jax's? On a limited budget im sure someone made the call to have a low budget nice downtown park in Jax versus an empty lot.
If you want water features and cafe's, eat downtown, then jump in the St. Johns.
[/quote]
Did you actually look at the pictures or are you just assuming?
[/quote]
I looked at the pictures... Also, just because a person is homeless does not mean they are worthless, go up and speak to them, open your mind.
WHAT? No photo of the dog droppings? It is quickly becoming a local sport to try and walk anywhere in this "park" without slipping on a pile of something. Maybe a big statue of the Georgia Bull Dog, and some fire plugs...and a shoe washing station.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote
I looked at the pictures... Also, just because a person is homeless does not mean they are worthless, go up and speak to them, open your mind.
Who said they were worthless? Are you putting words in somebody's mouth?
How can one possibly compare the two?? D-town has 3.4 million more people than the Jax metro area! One sits right in the middle of circular street junction in a city that has a much larger MSA (more $$ for parks) and the other uses a small plat in a nondescript area.
Yes, the pocket park could have been more - maybe a circular design instead - but there wasn't much to work with in terms of location and public money.
Quote from: TD* on September 01, 2008, 09:21:29 AM
Im really not sure what this article is trying to articulate. What are the bad aspects of Jacksonville's Pocket park versus Detroits?
It appears in your selective photos that you are trying to show that Jacksonville's homeless gather in the pocket park, where as by some stroke of genius detroits park is so clean and well planned that no homeless ever relax in the detroit park..
Weak article, and weak argument.
Perhaps, you've read too much into the photographs. It is a weak article and argument if that's the case. Believe it or not, this is an article that's not ready to run. I never added any text and I'm out of town right now. So its really a miscommunication behind the scenes.
Anyway, since its up, the parks in the images have both been constructed in the last five years and both are roughly around the same size. The point I was going to make was to attempt to drive home the fact that urban parks need to do a few things to be successful spaces:
A. They must respect and complement the surrounding land uses.
B. They must incorporate a mix of features that attract a diverse amount of users on a continuous basis.
If these two things can be carried out, then the space designed (regardless of the amount of money put into it) will be used by a large number of urban residents, workers and visitors. Also, while I still don't agree with the decision to spend $700k on the Main Street park, its still salvagable, if the points above can be introduced at that location.
$700K for a doggie litter box is not money well spent. There is NOTHING to do in this park. I go to the library every other day and it is either empty (what would you do?) or full of doggies going potty and their owners not picking up. The benches are't even IN the park! What is the point of the terraces? If they weren't there at least mayeb you could play a game of soccer or some Bocce. At a minimum why are there no benches or tables on any of the terraces?
Quote from: rjp2008 on September 01, 2008, 09:49:16 AM
How can one possibly compare the two?? D-town has 3.4 million more people than the Jax metro area! One sits right in the middle of circular street junction in a city that has a much larger MSA (more $$ for parks) and the other uses a small plat in a nondescript area.
I love these arguments because it goes to show we can make excuses for just about anything. Detroit is a city that's in pretty bad shape and there's little to zero money flowing in from its suburbs for parks in the inner city. Jax is in much better financial position.
QuoteYes, the pocket park could have been more - maybe a circular design instead - but there wasn't much to work with in terms of location and public money.
Throwing money at something is not always the correct answer. For example, if a park had to be built at this site, it could have been constructed without concrete retaining walls, brick pavers, etc. Lay sod at ground level and add a tot lot and perhaps a picnic pavilion or two to take advantage of schools and children's groups using the library and the usage would be higher. So cheaper investment = more usage, plus you still get the improved look for people driving by on Main Street.
I find it funny that the traditionally anti-urban conservatives seem to be populating this site more and more... When you live this close together, you have to work together to make things work...
The next time I read someone trying to justify this park on a budgetary point, I'm off this blog for good. Who cares if he wasted 630k, at least he didn't spend twice that and actually accomplish something great, right? That seems to be the prevailing mentality sometimes... Some people would rather not spend money at all, than on a decent community investment, so we get stuck with crap like the MSPP....
I swear, sometimes this town makes me want to sell my soul and move to Orlando with the mouse....
I agree that Detroit's park look more inviting than the MSPP. Walk score gives the MSPP a 95 out of 100. The Campus Matrius Park (CMP) gets only a 28. That said, there appears to be more businesses around CMP for people to step out of into the park to relax, eat lunch, window shop etc. Walk score however suggests that there should be more people being able to walk through, to or past the MSPP due to its proximity to restaurants, bars, library, etc.
The fact that the MSPP looks so deserted in summer may just be a heat issue. It being deserted all year round will definitely have something to do with the park being as un-inviting as it is. I agree that we dont need to pour in tons of money for fancy fountains to make people want to be at the park. There can be subtle things to do to make it safer for people to want to spend time in it. There is a library next to it, so why arent people sitting in the park reading books? Why are the trees away from the walking and sitting areas? Why cant they be among the lawn so people can sit under them when it is hot?
Quote from: stephendare on September 01, 2008, 11:11:51 AM
Lake, how could the park be saved starting from now?
Other than being used as an outdoor bathroom for dogs, the park needs to incorporate something that has the ability to pull in people on a regular basis. Perhaps a third of the park could become the home of playground equipment and perhaps a picnic pavilion. This would draw children's groups on field trips to the library, as well as dowtnown visitors/residents with small children.
Another option would be to take advantage of Main Street's high traffic count and RFP a corner out to a small restaurant/retail vendor, with outdoor seating opening into the park. This brings in a space that attracts people throughout the day. Perhaps the side of the building could be used as a screen, anchoring one of the green spaces? That space could then be used for events, like outdoor movies. There are several other things out there that will work also. Combine a few of these elements and you now have a pretty decent space, despite the large number of surface parking lots and garages surrounding it.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 01, 2008, 10:07:40 AM
Throwing money at something is not always the correct answer. For example, if a park had to be built at this site, it could have been constructed without concrete retaining walls, brick pavers, etc. Lay sod at ground level and add a tot lot and perhaps a picnic pavilion or two to take advantage of schools and children's groups using the library and the usage would be higher. So cheaper investment = more usage, plus you still get the improved look for people driving by on Main Street.
This was exactly what I was trying to say, if you take away my bitterness and lack of respect for the mayor. It would be nice to have a small play area downtown next to the library for the kids. There is no reason kids should be excluded from downtown. We always have to drive to get to a play area. This would have been a perfect spot.
Your joking right? You guys mean Jacksonville drivers would have to stop to let the little kiddies cross from the library to the park for lunch? FAT CHANCE!
10 points to get the fat kid with the big lunch box...
20 points to run down your favorite race/gender/sexual orientation hate child...
Add 50 points for speeds of 40+ mph
The national "walk score" for downtown Jacksonville is 31 out of 100 points!
PEACE OUT JACKSONVILLE!
OCKLAWAHA
I actually have the privilege of looking at the park from my apt. window. If we removed two sets of the concrete/mulch barriers along monroe street, at what would be the most eastern corner, there would be a nice grassy square that would be perfect for an outdoor play land and a couple of picnic tables. Along main street there is already a large square of brick pavers. All this needs is a few tables with chairs. Building a little cafe or snack shack could get kind of expensive as a stand alone. I wonder how much it would cost to reconstruct a facing/corner of the library facing main street and put something there. Renting out some street level retail would be another revenue for the library building and make it even more usable.
Quote from: brainstormer on September 01, 2008, 12:12:38 PM
I actually have the privilege of looking at the park from my apt. window. If we removed two sets of the concrete/mulch barriers along monroe street, at what would be the most eastern corner, there would be a nice grassy square that would be perfect for an outdoor play land and a couple of picnic tables. Along main street there is already a large square of brick pavers. All this needs is a few tables with chairs.
Perfect spot for a small playground.
QuoteBuilding a little cafe or snack shack could get kind of expensive as a stand alone. I wonder how much it would cost to reconstruct a facing/corner of the library facing main street and put something there. Renting out some street level retail would be another revenue for the library building and make it even more usable.
There are several ways to handle this. For example, the spot could be RFP'd out and whoever purchases/leases the spot would be responsible for the outlet's construction. Or intead of a full blown outlet, vendor space could be installed or set aside and leased out. While it does not have to be this nice, here's an example of vendor space, a visitor's information center and public restrooms being incorporated into Detroit's new riverwalk.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2319-p1010836.jpg)
We seem to never consider SCALE in our ventures... I had a real learning experience in scale in Latin America. Something like what Medellin places in the city parks and plazas and leased spaces would be most cool in the USA. VIVA COLOMBIA!
(http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/38/zMac.jpg)
JACKSONVILLE meet "Mc Park" and yes it IS Mickey D's.
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/43/125767989_a23b46fbeb.jpg?v=0)
OCKLAWAHA
Lets get to the real issues..Downtown will always be a ghost town until they get the crime and homeless under control.Time to play hard ball like Mayor Guiliani in New York during his term.He turned NEW YORK around!!! Times Square was full of homeless and prostitutes.He put more Cops on the streets to take out the garbage. Look at Times Square now. I feel safe there in the middle of the night.Downtown Jax will not be a place to live or visit until this issue is addressed.I just don't think Peyton has the stones to do it.So Downtown Jax will stay a ghost town.That pocket park is a total waste. I know....WELL MOVE THEN...Cant right now kids in school. I want DT Jax to turn around IT HAS REAL POTENTIAL but I dont see it happening :(
Downtown Minneapolis had a bocce court; across the street were several pubs and other restaurants. It was a HUGE hit.
Otherwise, just some seating in the shade, perhaps some tables with umbrellas, would be a good cheap start.
I'm going to disagree stjohnsguy. I've lived downtown for a year now and crime and the homeless are not the reason why downtown isn't Times Square. The homeless certainly don't help our image, but they are harmless. I've never felt unsafe in downtown. What was the date of the last murder, robbery or shooting in downtown? I honestly don't know because it hasn't been recent. I urge you to challenge your existing view and come back for a visit. Downtown won't be a happening place until people like yourself make it one. If you need restaurant or club recommendations, I'd be happy to share some names of places to check out. And don't worry, we have plenty of parking, if that's an excuse. It can just be a little tricky to find. ;D
Quote from: chris on September 01, 2008, 10:24:21 AM
I find it funny that the traditionally anti-urban conservatives seem to be populating this site more and more... When you live this close together, you have to work together to make things work...
The next time I read someone trying to justify this park on a budgetary point, I'm off this blog for good. Who cares if he wasted 630k, at least he didn't spend twice that and actually accomplish something great, right? That seems to be the prevailing mentality sometimes... Some people would rather not spend money at all, than on a decent community investment, so we get stuck with crap like the MSPP....
I swear, sometimes this town makes me want to sell my soul and move to Orlando with the mouse....
How much is your soul worth? ;) ;)
Seriously stick around. The anti-urban conservatives opinion are the most entertaining me. It documents why Jax is so far behind. When the progressive thinkers are out numbered by the conservatives, this site is going to be great education errrrrr..........entertainment.
In my best girly voice "Dont expand the Skyway it'll cost too much waaaaa" "We don't want Jackson Square waaaaaa" "Downtown has too much crime waaaaa" "Hip Hop events shouldn't be in Riverside waaaaaaa" "Homeless people are bad people waaaaaaa"......
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! Fucking WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
No you are right crime, homeless people,and vacancy make downtown very attractive.That is why everyone is falling over themselves to move there.....that is funny ;D.....Why has it worked for so many other cities?Lets just be realistic.We all want a downtown we can be proud of...AGAIN TAKE OUT THE TRASH ;D
I don't know what the answer is and I probably don't know all the problems but the purpose of this site is to compare Jax to other cities. What I can tell you about my experiences in Jax is that with the exception of a few neighborhoods, I don't feel safe in most of Jax at night and in many during the day and this perception which I hear many others say is a problem. There are models for solving this problem if Jax wants to look at them, Omaha and NY to name two.
Jax has also decentralized everything. 5 points is nice but limited, San Marco is nice but limited. Like it or not, major retailers bring people unless there is a touristy reason for people to be there. If we want downtown to be something, some major retailers are probably going to have to be part of the grand scheme. Take Savannah for example, touristy areas and retailer areas are what attract people to various parts of historic district. I nice downtown is much more enjoyable to visit than a mall.
As for parks, Jax has no clue. First off, every time Rutherford wants more money the citizens are told to choose between parks, library hours, and crime. What kind of mind set is this? Next, why is it every time I see a bench, it is wide open in the sun, we live in Florida after all. Whether it be a bus stop or a park, how about some cover, trees or otherwise. It is almost like a truck went done the street and threw a bench off every so far and the were left were they landed. I do not know about the rest of it but if Savannah, Tampa, Fort Wayne, Sioux Falls, Omaha, Denver, Colorado Springs, or any other city I have lived in or traveled to can have a nice park system filled with features similar to the parks that are highlighted here every so often, then we in Jax can do it to. I believe it is poor planning and alternative priorities on behalf of the city officials and ultimately us as citizens.
on a not-so-related note, how is Detroit doing?
Quote from: brainstormer on September 01, 2008, 04:12:55 PM
I'm going to disagree stjohnsguy. I've lived downtown for a year now and crime and the homeless are not the reason why downtown isn't Times Square. The homeless certainly don't help our image, but they are harmless. I've never felt unsafe in downtown. What was the date of the last murder, robbery or shooting in downtown? I honestly don't know because it hasn't been recent. I urge you to challenge your existing view and come back for a visit. Downtown won't be a happening place until people like yourself make it one. If you need restaurant or club recommendations, I'd be happy to share some names of places to check out. And don't worry, we have plenty of parking, if that's an excuse. It can just be a little tricky to find. ;D
you could be right and you could also be conditioned to be more accepting of what others perceive to be a problem. one thing that you are ignoring is that perception is reality and when people see homeless and undesirable types running amuk downtown, to them that makes it a scary place and this is a problem that needs to be addressed. You might know that the bum who is always on the corner is harmless but Joe sububanite is intimidated because he doesn't know what that smelly dirty person will do.
One big thing the city needs to do is make a partnership between law enforcement and social services, the cops need to sweep the streets of these people who have problems and instead of just moving them on they need to be pointed in the direction of the social services that can address the roots of their problems be it drug addiction or mental illness. The cops need to include the social service agencies in their efforts to clean up the core. This can be done, I've seen it work and if a comprehensive effort isn't made nothing will get done.
Putting all of the rest of the comments aside.. This article just misses completely Lakelander.... You are comparing one of detroits best downtown parks to jacksonville's worst.
Anyhow this piece needs revision as you stated.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/brokenwindow.jpg)
QuoteOne big thing the city needs to do is make a partnership between law enforcement and social services, the cops need to sweep the streets of these people who have problems and instead of just moving them on they need to be pointed in the direction of the social services that can address the roots of their problems be it drug addiction or mental illness.
Ah yes the old proverb tis true:
"First they came for the homeless and the unemployed, and I did nothing, because I was not homeless or unemployed.
Next they came for the dirty, those that didn't bathe, and I did nothing, because I was not dirty, and I bathe.
Then they came for the smokers and drug addicts, and I did nothing, because I was not a drug addict or a smoker.
One day they came for the prostitutes, pimps and politically incorrect, and I did nothing because I was not a prostitute, pimp or politically incorrect.
Then they came for the extremist, liberals and ultra Conservatives, and I did nothing, because I was not an extremist, liberal or ultra Conservative.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything..."
YEP ROUND EM UP Y'ALL, get out the cattle cars and the razor wire. Arbeit Macht Frei.
OCKLAWAHA
And thus the reducto ad hitlerum rears its ugly head. ;)
Ten things that would make this crappy park better and cost under $1000:
1. Playground
2. Bocce Ball
3. Croquet
4, Vollyball
5. Soccer
6. A reggae band on Sunday afternoon
7. A band on Friday night
8. A keg party with a dj any day of the week
9. an outdoor artists market one weekend...
and finally...
10. Get the bike cops to run off the bums that try to live there all day.
If anyone can get permission from the city, I would promote and produce 6-10 for free. No problem.
Well we have to pay the entertainment, but I will do the organizational work for tips.!!!
Its really easy. The park sucks because its under used by everyone except bums.
Ian
BTW, I think Jacksonville has a LONG way to go in the designs of its parks but this is really comparing apples to oranges. Campus Martius appears much larger than the Main Street Park and it is surrounded by sympathetic development. The Main Street park has none of these virtues, which is why is should never have been sited there. CM should really be compared with Hemming Park (which could also use some improvement). Anyway, I am still hopeful that a future administration will RFP the Main Street site to a residential developer.
Also, I forgot who said it but you can be a conservative and favor urban development. These ideas are not mutually exclusive and by casting it in such a political light you are alienating many people who would otherwise support your ideas.
Quote from: TD* on September 01, 2008, 09:34:54 PM
Putting all of the rest of the comments aside.. This article just misses completely Lakelander.... You are comparing one of detroits best downtown parks to jacksonville's worst.
Anyhow this piece needs revision as you stated.
The comparison was never made because the article was never started. However, these parks have more in common, then you want to give them credit for. Both are roughly the same size, built during the same era and centrally located in the heart of their downtowns. The difference is one was built with a mindset of attracting a diverse amount of users around the clock and the other wasn't. That comparison, no matter which way it is spinned, is hard to rip apart.
Quote from: Matt on September 01, 2008, 08:08:24 PM
on a not-so-related note, how is Detroit doing?
Downtown....better than ours.
The rest of the city....worse than ours.
Quote from: RiversideGator on September 01, 2008, 10:41:28 PM
BTW, I think Jacksonville has a LONG way to go in the designs of its parks but this is really comparing apples to oranges. Campus Martius appears much larger than the Main Street Park and it is surrounded by sympathetic development. The Main Street park has none of these virtues, which is why is should never have been sited there.
This is what makes it a valid comparison. Having complementing surrounding uses integrated with a park is just as important as what goes in the park itself. Its an open and shut case to why one fails and one succeeds. One was doomed from the start.
QuoteCM should really be compared with Hemming Park (which could also use some improvement). Anyway, I am still hopeful that a future administration will RFP the Main Street site to a residential developer.
They can all be compared with one another. Even the design of Klutho Park or the riverwalk can be compared as well. If urban parks can't attract users on a continuous basis, they fail, point blank, no excuses. If they incorporate things that attract people, they succeed regardless of size and the amount of money thrown into them.
QuoteAlso, I forgot who said it but you can be a conservative and favor urban development. These ideas are not mutually exclusive and by casting it in such a political light you are alienating many people who would otherwise support your ideas.
This is not my argument. I'm conservative when it comes to my money and tax dollars. I don't mind paying for things, but they should at least make sense and enhance the community for the funds spent. I don't think this spot, in its current configuration does either.
Quote from: triclops i on September 01, 2008, 10:40:44 PM
Ten things that would make this crappy park better and cost under $1000:
1. Playground
2. Bocce Ball
3. Croquet
4, Vollyball
5. Soccer
6. A reggae band on Sunday afternoon
7. A band on Friday night
8. A keg party with a dj any day of the week
9. an outdoor artists market one weekend...
and finally...
10. Get the bike cops to run off the bums that try to live there all day.
If anyone can get permission from the city, I would promote and produce 6-10 for free. No problem.
Well we have to pay the entertainment, but I will do the organizational work for tips.!!!
Its really easy. The park sucks because its under used by everyone except bums.
Ian
Beautiful. Triclops i has a pretty good head on his shoulders. Creating interesting spots that attract people is not always about spending tons of cash, bringing in palm trees and replica historic light posts. This is the exact type of problem solving this community needs.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 01, 2008, 09:35:24 PM
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/brokenwindow.jpg)
QuoteOne big thing the city needs to do is make a partnership between law enforcement and social services, the cops need to sweep the streets of these people who have problems and instead of just moving them on they need to be pointed in the direction of the social services that can address the roots of their problems be it drug addiction or mental illness.
Ah yes the old proverb tis true:
"First they came for the homeless and the unemployed, and I did nothing, because I was not homeless or unemployed.
Next they came for the dirty, those that didn't bathe, and I did nothing, because I was not dirty, and I bathe.
Then they came for the smokers and drug addicts, and I did nothing, because I was not a drug addict or a smoker.
One day they came for the prostitutes, pimps and politically incorrect, and I did nothing because I was not a prostitute, pimp or politically incorrect.
Then they came for the extremist, liberals and ultra Conservatives, and I did nothing, because I was not an extremist, liberal or ultra Conservative.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to do anything..."
YEP ROUND EM UP Y'ALL, get out the cattle cars and the razor wire. Arbeit Macht Frei.
OCKLAWAHA
oh my shall we invoke godwin's?
please next time try to comprehend what was written and hold back on the histrionics.
I think that most of us will agree that the majority of the homeless are in that position because of other problems like addictions or mental illnesses that hinder their ability to provide for themselves. All I suggested was that the city in partnership with law enforcement providing the outreach get these people connected to social services that might be able to help them. please don't let your altruistic chest thumping distract you from the goal we all seek, help for the homeless and a cleaner downtown that is more attractive to people to come to.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 01, 2008, 11:15:37 PM
This is what makes it a valid comparison. Having complementing surrounding uses integrated with a park is just as important as what goes in the park itself. Its an open and shut case to why one fails and one succeeds. One was doomed from the start.
I agree with you that it was doomed from the start and needs complimentary uses. We all stated before this was built that it was a bad move and we were right.
Quote
QuoteCM should really be compared with Hemming Park (which could also use some improvement). Anyway, I am still hopeful that a future administration will RFP the Main Street site to a residential developer.
They can all be compared with one another. Even the design of Klutho Park or the riverwalk can be compared as well. If urban parks can't attract users on a continuous basis, they fail, point blank, no excuses. If they incorporate things that attract people, they succeed regardless of size and the amount of money thrown into them.
Agreed.
Quote
QuoteAlso, I forgot who said it but you can be a conservative and favor urban development. These ideas are not mutually exclusive and by casting it in such a political light you are alienating many people who would otherwise support your ideas.
This is not my argument. I'm conservative when it comes to my money and tax dollars. I don't mind paying for things, but they should at least make sense and enhance the community for the funds spent. I don't think this spot, in its current configuration does either.
I didnt mean to imply that this was your argument. I didnt recall who had posted it and was being lazy about going back and finding the original poster. I also agree with your point here.
I guess what I was trying to say was that CM has much more potential because of where it was sited than the Main Street park ever did. Forget about what was put into the park, I was referring to the potential synergy with the surrounding areas. The CM park has multiple population centers surrounding it. The Main Street park has none (unless you count the Salvation Army bum magnet).
Quote from: stephendare on September 01, 2008, 11:49:57 PM
apvbguy. please stop with the name calling. it is against our rules of civility. You can make your point without trying to detract from others.
Did he call someone a name in this thread? ???
Quote from: RiversideGator on September 01, 2008, 11:54:39 PM
I didnt mean to imply that this was your argument. I didnt recall who had posted it and was being lazy about going back and finding the original poster. I also agree with your point here.
I guess what I was trying to say was that CM has much more potential because of where it was sited than the Main Street park ever did. Forget about what was put into the park, I was referring to the potential synergy with the surrounding areas. The CM park has multiple population centers surrounding it. The Main Street park has none (unless you count the Salvation Army bum magnet).
Yes, but it was all a part of a plan that happened to be larger than the park itself. Most of what surrounds the park today, came after the park's plans were announced or construction had begun. Its been fascinating to see how an area can turn around so quickly, if properly planned and carried out. When comparing the two, the fact that one was situated in a location that would be central to future projects opening up into the space is a critical point.
It goes back to the notion that figuring out how the surrounding spaces work/integrate with a park is just as important as the park's layout. Despite being warned the city missed big time on this point. Now we have to figure out how to salvage what's there. For this to be done, we have to focus on making the park an attraction itself.
This city has a love/hate relationship with the homeless. Most people who defend their (homeless) presence and behavior wouldn't be caught dead anywhere near them. This issue must be addressed in a different way than it is being addressed now. I don't know anyone who is comfortable in a park or anywhere where there is a concentration of these people and no Downtown can thrive when it is overrun with non tax paying, social service agencies. I am used to living in urban areas and am not afraid of the street people but it's not enjoyable to be approached by strangers and hit up for money continuously. I definitely think there is room for improvement with our urban parks but until we find some kind of solution for the homeless situation I don't know how much difference the improvements would make.
Was the warning because of the reference to
reductio ad hitlerum?
That was just the fancy way of referring to Godwin's Law, he wasn't calling Ock "hitler":
Quote from: wikipediaGodwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:[2][3]
"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Godwin's Law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the reductio ad Hitlerum form.
The rule does not make any statement whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that one arising is increasingly probable. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued[4] that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact. Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[5] the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and wiki talk pages.
The rest of the wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law And to, thelakelander - when will the full article be posted? Are saying, a couple posts back, that the park preceded some of those big office building? Or just that the park preceded some of the street level retail/restaurant uses?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 02, 2008, 06:13:56 AM
And to, thelakelander - when will the full article be posted?
I'm just getting back in to town. I'll try and post the full article before the end of the day.
QuoteAre saying, a couple posts back, that the park preceded some of those big office building? Or just that the park preceded some of the street level retail/restaurant uses?
The planning and construction of the park preceded two large office buildings, the adaptive reuse of another, a second linear park and a large parking garage with street level retail.
apvguy, Hey man, I'm not chest thumping out here,(NO HARM INTENDED) we all want the same things. I just cringe at the thought of any forced roundup of a free people. I've spent years as a CITIZEN in the "3 Rd World" and this kind of stuff ain't pretty.
I suspect that we agree on the need for social services, but they must be made so attractive that those in need will seek them out without police intervention.
Ask anyone at MJ my attitude toward these folks. If they wander into a meeting, I shift to inclusive mode. Try never to leave one hungry or thirsty, and always leave a friend. Since we're talking about "law and parables" just remember "you can draw more flys with honey then vinegar."
We went through this on another e:news source about a year ago and it got REALLY ugly. Someone set up the police roundup theory and suddenly everyone wanted to: (take your pick) shoot them, sling-shots, floodlights etc... In this case it was hookers. But in no case is it right. I just wanted to stem the tide before it hit again.
Just my view...you see... been there-done that!
FRIENDS?
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2008, 08:40:14 AM
apvguy, Hey man, I'm not chest thumping out here,(NO HARM INTENDED) we all want the same things. I just cringe at the thought of any forced roundup of a free people. I've spent years as a CITIZEN in the "3 Rd World" and this kind of stuff ain't pretty.
believe or not over the course of a day the homeless are violating many laws(sure they are petty), I guess you missed the part where I said a
partnership[/b] between law enforcement and social service programs.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2008, 08:40:14 AM
I suspect that we agree on the need for social services, but they must be made so attractive that those in need will seek them out without police intervention.
the homeless types usually loathe seeking help or assistance, that's why they are homeless. Social service agencies need to get proactive, out of their comfortable offices and onto the streets, to seek out, counsel and assist these people.
Unfortunately sometimes the people who need the most help reject any type of help and this is where law enforcement comes in, I know it's tough but the homeless need to be cleaned out, so you give them a choice of being helped by the social service types or being rousted by the cops. It's not pretty but it needs to be done.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2008, 08:40:14 AM
FRIENDS? [/color][/b]
OCKLAWAHA
sure, while we see things from different perspectives we both are after similar results
Quotethe homeless types usually loathe seeking help or assistance, that's why they are homeless. Social service agencies need to get proactive, out of their comfortable offices and onto the streets, to seek out, counsel and assist these people.
In this we completely agree. Get the mission's the case workers, the care givers out on the street. We could start with local chapters of groups like "Hookers for Jesus", these are former street gals, that take the mission into the street corners at night! I encourage ANYONE with a heart for these people to check out Annie at:
http://www.hookersforjesus.net/QuoteUnfortunately sometimes the people who need the most help reject any type of help and this is where law enforcement comes in, I know it's tough but the homeless need to be cleaned out, so you give them a choice of being helped by the social service types or being rousted by the cops. It's not pretty but it needs to be done.
With a few more Annies in this world, this step wouldn't be needed. Back in the day, as a hippie freak living out of a Chevy Van, I wouldn't have turned into a mission for all the tea in Tokyo. BUT, had others approached me, I would have opened the door and let them in. All it takes is our love and our time.
Sadly our history is one of violence, be it states rights, native rights, civil rights, or Jacksonville rights, it has a colored past of extreme violence often right from the top of our government. Our local "Pooping Man" on Youtube, is a case of a street kid, gone bad, head caved in by our police and now a brain damaged side show freak for I-Freak addicts. Had we just taken the suggestions in your first paragraph, none of this would have happened. OCKLAWAHA
Text has now been added to this article:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/872
QuoteIm having to spend an inordinate amount of time in Boca Raton on business, and I tell ya what, this place----as suburban as it is---- gets it.
The green spaces and public parks are beautiful. Not just beautiful, but magnificent. Banyan Vine covered trees that hug the drainage canals and sculpted ficus for miles. The neighborhoods are well designed and the entertainment nodes are brilliantly executed.
Well, that is what Mizner intended when he planned the whole town way back as a tropical urban paradise. :)
It's not without flaws though - still have to drive everywhere and you feel like a drone at times.
Check out Red Reef Park (ocean) and Sugar Sand Park if you can.
QuoteIt's not without flaws though -
Yeah, like spitting on anybody considered from a lower rank... IMO - the largest collection of utterly rude people in the State of Florida. OCKLAWAHA
The Detroit park isn't a pocket park. I think a comparison to the pocket park near the Florida Theater would be better. The article now makes sense however with the text.
The Main Street park is closer in size to the Detroit park than it is the one in front of the Florida Theater. Besides, it really does not matter. The success and failure of urban park spaces have little to do with size and more to do with having a mix of amenities and integrating with the surrounding environment. Btw, the park across the street from the Florida Theater does not get much usage either. Overall, our pocket parks have been a complete disaster if they were built for urbanites to enjoy open green space.
lakelander, even with ur text added i still don't like your article. I will wait on your next one to see what it can bring to the table.
You don't have to like it.
Yes, we all have our opinions. You don't have to like or agree with it. Feel free to submit an alternative viewpoint article for the front page. I'll make sure it gets uploaded.
Quote from: TD* on September 02, 2008, 05:20:24 PM
lakelander, even with ur text added i still don't like your article. I will wait on your next one to see what it can bring to the table.
You don't have to like or agree with it. Feel free to submit an alternative viewpoint article for the front page. I'll make sure it gets uploaded.
I agree it is not the size of the park but the elemants. Why would one check out a book walk across sit in the hot Florida sun and then be constanly bothered by the homesless.Further more there is a nice courtyard inside the library thats nicely scaped and more suited to reading. I would like to know what the city leaders have learned on some of these trips they take to other cities(spending our tax money),, its obvious nothing. Hope they enjoyed their vacation.
Quote from: TD* on September 02, 2008, 05:20:24 PM
lakelander, even with ur text added i still don't like your article. I will wait on your next one to see what it can bring to the table.
I don't see your point - are you trying to tell me that Jacksonville's park is better than Detroit's? Here is the thing: Building this thing is much worse then building nothing, because the park is a negative in our downtown, and it cost $700K. Was the money really burning a hole if their pocket? They should ahve saved the money.
If saving it was not an option (like a grant that was about to expire), then I can come up with a ton of better uses for $700K in our park system then building this POS. This lot would have made an ideal lot for an RFP for workforce housing (remember, they had this opportunity before real estate went south).
Main Street pocket park before...
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/MainStreetProposal-1.jpg)
After RFP for mixed use infill....
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/MainStreetProposal-2.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/MainStreetProposal-3.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/MainStreetProposal-5.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/MainStreetProposal-6.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/MainStreetProposal-4.jpg)
That property had the potential to become a piece of something great for Main Street. I'm not saying the corridor can't be saved now, but for the city to issue an RFP for the already vacant property would have gotten the ball rolling much quicker. What better way to promote the largest public library in the state than to issue RFPs for residential infill along its borders and use the $700k on enhancing the fantastic park system we already have.
It was a good use of money, having a nice park is priceless. I enjoy the park. Cheers Jax
Well Detroit is getting a new mayor.....
QuoteDetroit’s Mayor Will Leave Office and Go to Jail
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/09/05/us/detroit190.jpg)
By SUSAN SAULNY and NICK BUNKLEY
Published: September 4, 2008
DETROIT â€" Mayor Kwame M. Kilpatrick pleaded guilty to felony charges here on Thursday and agreed to resign from office and serve 120 days in jail, ending eight months of political turmoil but also opening a new era of uncertainty for the city.
After the agreement, Gov. Jennifer M. Granholm of Michigan suspended her hearing on whether to remove Mr. Kilpatrick for misconduct, relieving her of being in the awkward position of possibly ousting the mayor, a fellow Democrat, from office.
“It is my profound hope that we can now write a new history for this great but embattled city and that the citizens of Detroit begin the healing process to move forward,†she said. But even as the fate of Mr. Kilpatrick became clear on Thursday, a new layer of potential pitfalls came into view.
The City Council that will now try to bring stability to the nation’s 11th largest city is known for its volatility. Its two top leaders, Kenneth V. Cockrel Jr., the council president who will now be interim mayor, and Monica Conyers, who will become president of the Council, were recently involved in a public shouting match that has become a running joke.
And some members of the Council are under federal investigation for possibly taking payoffs before approving a multimillion-dollar sewage contract.
“Moving forward will require all of us to put aside the anger and bitterness of the past few months,†said Mr. Cockrel, 42, “and heal as a community.â€
Mr. Cockrel, whose father, a civil rights activist, died in 1989 before he could achieve his own mayoral aspirations and whose stepmother is a current council member, said chief among his responsibilities would be “restoring the credibility of not only the mayor but also of the city of Detroit.â€
In an evening address from his office, an upbeat Mr. Kilpatrick took a parting swipe at Ms. Granholm. He also acknowledged what he called his “poor judgment,†asked the city to throw its support behind Mr. Cockrel and gave a litany of his achievements.
“I want to emphasize tonight that I take full responsibility for my own actions,†he said. “I wish with all my heart that we could turn back the hands of time and tell that young man to make better choices. But I can’t. Our challenge now is to put the anguish and turmoil of recent months behind us and join in a common cause to love our city, to love one another and move forward together.â€
Police Chief Ella Bully-Cummings, a mayoral appointee, announced her retirement immediately after Mr. Kilpatrick’s plea, and a host of other city officials and staff members are expected to leave their jobs. It all adds up to a tremendous amount of tumult for a poverty-stricken city that had been experiencing glimmers of a renaissance after decades of population loss and decline.
“If you drove over the city 10 years ago and now, you’d see many points of evidence that indeed there are good things going on in Detroit,†said Michael Smith, a historian of the city. “The sad thing is, Kwame Kilpatrick was becoming a good mayor and making some progress. He had a brilliant future.â€
Much of the new enthusiasm in downtown Detroit is credited to Mr. Kilpatrick, a charismatic leader who brought a high level of energy and expectations to office when he was elected for the first time in 2001 at just 31 years old. With new attractions along a redeveloped riverfront, fresh business investment downtown and new housing in the city core, things seemed to be moving in the right direction.
“I think we can get the momentum back that we had before this happened,†said Doug Rothwell, the president of Detroit Renaissance, a group of business leaders that promotes economic development in the city. “There’s no question that things have been put on pause during these eight months.â€
Mr. Kilpatrick’s ordeal also leaves ripple effects in the form of aggravated racial tension between whites and blacks and the city and its suburbs at a time when the region is suffering through a serious economic downturn.
full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/us/05detroit.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
QuoteIt was a good use of money, having a nice park is priceless. I enjoy the park. Cheers Jax
LOL! I was there today, and for the life of me, I can't figure out what the hell this spot is about... There is absolutely, postively, nothing there. No shade, no water, no features, no equipment, no statues, no markers, no monuments, no kiosks, no picnic shelters, no tables, no chairs, no playground, no gold fish, no ducks, no pond, no gardens, no pavillions, no BBQ pits or stands, no gazebos, no bandstand, no directional signs, no stairs, no way up, no way down... NOTHING, NADA...
"Shirley, everyone can see something needs to be done here...."
Oh, know,
"We all know something has to be done but don't call me SHIRLEY!" OCKLAWAHA