Transit in Jacksonville, Let's Get Started!
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1589-newnan_street.jpg)
The following video was presented by Metro Jacksonville for the 2008 Environmental Symposium held on August 26th by the City of Jacksonville's Environmental Quality Division.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/884
Good job MetroJacksonville! Very informative.
Well done.
How was it received by the Environmental Quality folks?
Very impressive. I am so glad you included the "myths" section. Keep pouring it on.
Very well done!
What would it take to get this aired on WJXT?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 28, 2008, 05:56:43 AM
Well done.
How was it received by the Environmental Quality folks?
It was taken well. The only significant question that came up, was one concerning population density. A gentleman thought we were too spread out for rail and that we needed to build up density around our rail corridors first, before moving forward.
My response was that I agreed that we needed to continue to build up density around our rail corridors, but depending on the specific corridor chosen, the density was already there or not as much of a concern for a commuter rail vs. heavy rail based system. I then offered up Charlotte and Nashville as examples of spread out sprawling sunbelt cities with densities lower than the First Coast already operating rail based mass transit systems. My underlying point was we should move forward with implementing a starter line, in the short term, along with continuing to encourage higher densities along our rail corridors.
JTA also had a pretty good video. I'm hoping we can get it uploaded here within the next week or so.
For those interested in embedding the video in their own site, here is the code:
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I think I came out better then planned! Managed to hit every high point and avoided the sucker punches... (leave those to me! hee hee)
OCKLAWAHA
Extremely nice work to all those involved.
The JTA commuter rail video is on their website - in the RTS - commuter rail announcements section for anyone who wants to view it.
Here is the JTA video:
http://www.youtube.com/v/dHWHAWF_xKo
This looks like the Metrojacksonville plan. (But they are not committing to anything).
Great job, I am sold .. it is time sleepy little Jax grows up. I hope to see this realized one day.
One comment was about density around the rail, my understanding is that the density will come once the rail is built, is this accurate?
Its a little mix of both. We have enough density right now in certain neighborhoods closer to downtown. Density does drop off big time once we get into the sprawling burbs. Imo, its always best to start small and expand. It worked for Salt Lake City and now its working for Charlotte.
Applying this concept to Jacksonville, I'd start by linking dense pockets (ex. Riverside, Springfield, Metro North, Durkeeville, San Marco, etc.) with downtown and major employment centers along these lines (NAS Jax, Shands Jacksonville, Swisher, Gateway, etc.), while at the same time working to increase density around the rail corridors throughout the region (ex. areas like Yulee, Green Cove Springs, etc.). Then as time goes on and the opportunity presents itself, we expand.
Nice presentation, now it would be nice if Tallahassee could get some rail lovin' as well!
This seems like a great plan. Commuter rail to the less dense suburban areas. Light rail to San Marco, Riverside, Springfield, Ortega, Metro North, maybe eventually to the Airport. The densities here will only increase and further drive transite ridership.
Clay to Jax commute 38 minutes?????? It took me 45 minutes to go 7 miles on Blanding just to get to I-295 each day 10 years ago....that is why I moved to St Johns.WAKE UP JTA...The time for planning has passed.Time for Action!!!!
Now the city and adjacent counties need to start a public awareness campaign to get the word out and bring the general public on board. There must be a general consensus out there to generate a critical mass of public opinion to make this happen. The time to begin educating and trying to change Duvals attitudes about mass transit is NOW.
Amtrak currently does the run from Orange Park to Downtown Jacksonville in 14 minutes.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/371/
There's an Amtrack station in OP????
No. It goes right by.
Man, in the short term, imagine what Amtrak could do for OP once they move the Jax station downtown.
I like the idea, but I think we need more than a commuter rail using the existing track. We need options to connect the Southside and the Beaches, which are one of Jacksonville's busiest areas. I suggest we strive for a system similar to that of Washington, DC. They have commuter railroads extending to the north and south, and closer to and within the city, they have a subway type system called Metro. From what I understand, this system was built in the 70s using funds initially planned to be used on a mass highway system. They started with 3 lines, eventually expanded to 5, and now plan to build two more. The system seems to be very effective and is one of the only systems that was actually built from scratch rather than relying on existing tracks. As a major city that has a larger population than Washington, I think we need to build at least 3 subway lines. 1 from Downtown to Jacksonville Beach following JTB (This will help serve St Johns Town Center as well as Ponte Vedra better), 1 from Downtown to Atlantic Beach via Atlantic Blvd (this will serve the Regency area better as well as the northern beaches), and 1 from Downtown to the Avenues or Mandarin or both. A better system would also include a line from Downtown to Orange Park and a line from Downtown to the airport. Yes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day. I don't know how much money was needed to build the original 3 lines of the Washington Metro, but considering it came from original highway expansion plans, which Jacksonville has also been doing recently, I can see this as a possibility.
Quote from: Murjax on September 02, 2008, 03:54:04 PM
I like the idea, but I think we need more than a commuter rail using the existing track. We need options to connect the Southside and the Beaches, which are one of Jacksonville's busiest areas. I suggest we strive for a system similar to that of Washington, DC. They have commuter railroads extending to the north and south, and closer to and within the city, they have a subway type system called Metro. From what I understand, this system was built in the 70s using funds initially planned to be used on a mass highway system. They started with 3 lines, eventually expanded to 5, and now plan to build two more.
DC's Metrorail is a heavy rail subway system. This is something that is out of Jax's league when considering urban density, soil conditions and monetary concerns. That's not a fault against Jax though, it will be a long time before we see another American city construct a heavy rail system from scratch. Nevertheless, DC's system was built over decades and is still in the midst of expansion. The subway began operations in 1976, MARC commuter rail in 1984 and VRE commuter rail in 1992. The best thing we can take from DC is to acknowledge that we have to start small and expand. Taking advantage of an available rail line or two to implement a starter line is a great way to move forward without breaking the bank.
QuoteThe system seems to be very effective and is one of the only systems that was actually built from scratch rather than relying on existing tracks. As a major city that has a larger population than Washington, I think we need to build at least 3 subway lines.
DC is actually significantly larger and denser than Jacksonville. Sometimes this gets lost because we include most of our county population as our city number due to consolidation. However, when we look at urban area numbers, we can compare apples to apples.
DC urban area population census 2000: 3,933,920
DC urban area population density census 2000: 3,400.8
Jacksonville urban area population census 2000: 882,295
Jacksonville urban area population density census 2000: 2,149.2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Urban_Areas_%26_Urban_Clusters
Quote1 from Downtown to Jacksonville Beach following JTB (This will help serve St Johns Town Center as well as Ponte Vedra better), 1 from Downtown to Atlantic Beach via Atlantic Blvd (this will serve the Regency area better as well as the northern beaches), and 1 from Downtown to the Avenues or Mandarin or both. A better system would also include a line from Downtown to Orange Park and a line from Downtown to the airport. Yes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day. I don't know how much money was needed to build the original 3 lines of the Washington Metro, but considering it came from original highway expansion plans, which Jacksonville has also been doing recently, I can see this as a possibility.
Based on our density levels, urban area population numbers and the paths that similar sized and larger cities have taken, if we go rail, its going to be either streetcar, light, commuter rail or a mix of all three.
And on top of the population numbers...we're not the capital of the country!!! If the US govt convened in Jacksonville, FL, then maybe we'd get something done around here.
...then again, maybe not.
MURJAX, Welcome aboard our train! I'm the resident Transportation Consultant (Navy-Airline-Motor Coach-RAIL background) here and we have a couple of railroaders, some hidden DOT, FDOT, JTA and political types as well as Lakelander our resident Urban Planner. Love to have your input. QuoteYes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day.
As The Lakelander didn't address this point I will: Current studies show the CSX "A" line south along Roosevelt, the FEC line along Philips and the CSX Yulee line along North Main Street as the primary targets for a starter system.
1. Traffic on the CSX Roosevelt is fairly good even into Clay County to Green Cove Springs, and that model only considers 1 mile from the station with NO CONNECTING TRANSIT and it doesn't consider things like NAS or Airports etc... Still, even running this early model, we get a good commuter line. Back in the day, this was mostly double track, the right of way will still handle another track if needs be. Meanwhile the state plans to move the freight traffic off of this route as early as next year. The leaves it wide open for us and Amtrak to make a first class commuter link from it. In the old days it handled perhaps 4 -5 times the number of trains + as many as 10 passenger trains daily. Freights were shorter then and much lighter. Today the same railroad handles many x more tons but way less traffic. This means there are many more time slots to work with.
2. The FEC uses a SFT or SHORT-FAST-TRAIN concept, as soon as they get the transfers over the river they block them by city in Bowden yard and get them out of town. So traffic is frequent. Likewise, this is a good and balanced corridor using the same early model system. Even without the Avenues, St. Augustine Airport, Nocatee etc... it's coming in good. FEC is justified in worry over capacity issues, a second track once ran the entire east coast of Florida, so again, the right-of-way is in place. Add some capacity, even more and longer sidings, some signals, and a few overpasses such as St. Augustine Road or Sunbeam and they'd be onboard.
3. The Northside is missing the first 3-4 miles of track, and the city owns the key right-of-way. This is no slouch either as it is the former mainline of the old Seaboard Air Line Railroad - parent road of both of todays Amtrak Silver Star/Silver Meteor trains. After the Coast Line merger it was cut in half between Jax and Savannah, leaving our line as a switching track to South Georgia and Fernandina or the port. A new CSX plan to build a cut off from the Port North of the Airport to the line near Callahan, will leave the entire urban portion of this line more-or-less empty. If the City buys the remaining track, we could even build Light Rail on it, and lease the rights to night-time freight back to the railroads as a independent terminal company. The models on this line are FANTASTIC, until the Dunn Avenue-Airport roads, then it just drops to nothing.
As the second models are run, which WILL show connections, and major points along the routes, I'm confident that these 3 will all make the cut. In fact, don't be surprised it Baldwin-Macclenny or Starke-Gainesville come out with a couple of daily trips too. This is easy to do with trains. For example if one trip started in Gainesville, one in Macclenny and another at Baldwin, all three lines converge at Baldwin. So by staggering the trains, in the urban core, Baldwin - Downtown you'd have 6 daily commute trains (3 each way).
Most of the models are showing service at 30 minute headways.
Once this is up and running, we need to expand downtown options with the Skyway, and Streetcar lines. There might also be options for connecting Trolley or BRT buses on JTB, Atlantic etc that tie into rail. One thing for sure, the revolution is on!OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2008, 11:59:30 PM
MURJAX, Welcome aboard our train! I'm the resident Transportation Consultant (Navy-Airline-Motor Coach-RAIL background) here and we have a couple of railroaders, some hidden DOT, FDOT, JTA and political types as well as Lakelander our resident Urban Planner. Love to have your input.
QuoteYes, I know some of these lines suggested sort of parallel the existing lines, however even if the existing lines were to be used for commuter rail system, their capacity won't be high (especially on the FEC) and service will probably be limited to a few rush hour trains which isn't good for areas closer to town such as Englewood which more than likely see continuous traffic throughout the day.
As The Lakelander didn't address this point I will: Current studies show the CSX "A" line south along Roosevelt, the FEC line along Philips and the CSX Yulee line along North Main Street as the primary targets for a starter system.
1. Traffic on the CSX Roosevelt is fairly good even into Clay County to Green Cove Springs, and that model only considers 1 mile from the station with NO CONNECTING TRANSIT and it doesn't consider things like NAS or Airports etc... Still, even running this early model, we get a good commuter line. Back in the day, this was mostly double track, the right of way will still handle another track if needs be. Meanwhile the state plans to move the freight traffic off of this route as early as next year. The leaves it wide open for us and Amtrak to make a first class commuter link from it. In the old days it handled perhaps 4 -5 times the number of trains + as many as 10 passenger trains daily. Freights were shorter then and much lighter. Today the same railroad handles many x more tons but way less traffic. This means there are many more time slots to work with.
2. The FEC uses a SFT or SHORT-FAST-TRAIN concept, as soon as they get the transfers over the river they block them by city in Bowden yard and get them out of town. So traffic is frequent. Likewise, this is a good and balanced corridor using the same early model system. Even without the Avenues, St. Augustine Airport, Nocatee etc... it's coming in good. FEC is justified in worry over capacity issues, a second track once ran the entire east coast of Florida, so again, the right-of-way is in place. Add some capacity, even more and longer sidings, some signals, and a few overpasses such as St. Augustine Road or Sunbeam and they'd be onboard.
3. The Northside is missing the first 3-4 miles of track, and the city owns the key right-of-way. This is no slouch either as it is the former mainline of the old Seaboard Air Line Railroad - parent road of both of todays Amtrak Silver Star/Silver Meteor trains. After the Coast Line merger it was cut in half between Jax and Savannah, leaving our line as a switching track to South Georgia and Fernandina or the port. A new CSX plan to build a cut off from the Port North of the Airport to the line near Callahan, will leave the entire urban portion of this line more-or-less empty. If the City buys the remaining track, we could even build Light Rail on it, and lease the rights to night-time freight back to the railroads as a independent terminal company. The models on this line are FANTASTIC, until the Dunn Avenue-Airport roads, then it just drops to nothing.
As the second models are run, which WILL show connections, and major points along the routes, I'm confident that these 3 will all make the cut. In fact, don't be surprised it Baldwin-Macclenny or Starke-Gainesville come out with a couple of daily trips too. This is easy to do with trains. For example if one trip started in Gainesville, one in Macclenny and another at Baldwin, all three lines converge at Baldwin. So by staggering the trains, in the urban core, Baldwin - Downtown you'd have 6 daily commute trains (3 each way).
Most of the models are showing service at 30 minute headways.
Once this is up and running, we need to expand downtown options with the Skyway, and Streetcar lines. There might also be options for connecting Trolley or BRT buses on JTB, Atlantic etc that tie into rail. One thing for sure, the revolution is on!
OCKLAWAHA
I like the plan. It gives much better options for getting into town than we have now. The sooner we can do this, the better. Traffic seems to get worse year after year as new areas develop. I agree with Thelakelander. We need to start at a normal pace and not break the bank, but we need a plan for better transit options in the Beaches, Southside, and Arlington areas within the next 10 years or less. A simple line from Downtown to Regency Square Mall would help. We don't need to build all the way to the beaches in 1 year, but it needs to be part of the plan.
Quoteif we go rail, its going to be either streetcar, light, commuter rail or a mix of all three.
Where do you propose putting this? I can't imagine where it would fit in the Arlington area. It's all built up. Many light rails, including Baltimore's, were started on either existing track, or existing right of ways, although I think some were built from scratch where there was land available. This is why I proposed a subway. Land availability isn't an issue.
QuoteThis is something that is out of Jax's league when considering urban density, soil conditions and monetary concerns.
We only need to build where the urban population is densest first. Traffic west of Regency Square Mall tends to be really tight and it's starting to get tight east of there. I don't see how soil conditions are a problem. Tunnels of various sorts have been built in all conditions around the world. They have even been built underwater and even in Florida. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_Tunnel) It would also probably also be easier to construct tunnels under the St Johns River for this rather than having to construct a complicated bridge for it. Any bridge would have to be high so it doesn't interfere with boat traffic, and trains can't climb at the same rate as a car unless you build a San Francisco trolley type system which has cables underneath the track helping it climb.
A subway is too expensive, which is why we don't see cities building them from scratch anymore. I don't know what the ridership numbers are to the beach, but I would assume in the long run we would need either BRT or light rail tying that area into the rest of the regional mass transit network. If its BRT, we could simply run it down Atlantic, Beach or JTB. If its light rail, it will probably be a mix of these streets and some utility easements Ock has mentioned in the past.
QuoteI like the plan. It gives much better options for getting into town than we have now. The sooner we can do this, the better. Traffic seems to get worse year after year as new areas develop. I agree with Thelakelander. We need to start at a normal pace and not break the bank, but we need a plan for better transit options in the Beaches, Southside, and Arlington areas within the next 10 years or less. A simple line from Downtown to Regency Square Mall would help. We don't need to build all the way to the beaches in 1 year, but it needs to be part of the plan.
Quote
if we go rail, its going to be either streetcar, light, commuter rail or a mix of all three.
Where do you propose putting this? I can't imagine where it would fit in the Arlington area. It's all built up. Many light rails, including Baltimore's, were started on either existing track, or existing right of ways, although I think some were built from scratch where there was land available. This is why I proposed a subway. Land availability isn't an issue.
Quote
This is something that is out of Jax's league when considering urban density, soil conditions and monetary concerns.
We only need to build where the urban population is densest first. Traffic west of Regency Square Mall tends to be really tight and it's starting to get tight east of there. I don't see how soil conditions are a problem. Tunnels of various sorts have been built in all conditions around the world. They have even been built underwater and even in Florida. It would also probably also be easier to construct tunnels under the St Johns River for this rather than having to construct a complicated bridge for it. Any bridge would have to be high so it doesn't interfere with boat traffic, and trains can't climb at the same rate as a car unless you build a San Francisco trolley type system which has cables underneath the track helping it climb.
The Beaches and Arlington are part of the plan.
Im sure any LRT or Rapid Streetcar to the Beach would use current Right of Way. Freeway, highway, medians or electric transmission lines. Land is less an issue with LRT then with BRT, or Florida Subway.
It would certainly built in phases.
Tunnels are the most expensive options in transportation. With soft gound and soft bedrock, the tunnels here would have to be built with cut-and-cover. This would involve a trench project something like the Arlington Expressway in size. Dirt would be removed, walls have to be reinforced and ground water pumped or sealed. VERY COSTLY and messy. A cement box is either cast at the site or pre-cast and lowered into the site, then you refill and replant everything. BILLIONS on BILLIONS. IF (which we don't have shy of 15,000 feet down) we had a hardrock base, Tunnel boring machines could be used in a much safer atmosphere. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 02:38:34 PM
A subway is too expensive, which is why we don't see cities building them from scratch anymore.
actually NYC is build a new line along 2nd ave now, it was in the planning stages for over 50 years. A subway doesn't seem to be in JAX's future for many reasons, cost is just the biggest one.
Regarding the beaches, a BRT (something which is a terrible concept) isn't needed, what needs to be determined first is what level of service is needed and then if warranted use express buses that pick up in few stops at the beaches and makes a loop around the core.
Quoteactually NYC is build a new line along 2nd ave now, it was in the planning stages for over 50 years. A subway doesn't seem to be in JAX's future for many reasons, cost is just the biggest one.
NYC is not building a subway system from scratch. They have had a system for over 100 years.
QuoteRegarding the beaches, a BRT (something which is a terrible concept) isn't needed, what needs to be determined first is what level of service is needed and then if warranted use express buses that pick up in few stops at the beaches and makes a loop around the core.
BRT can be many things. On the low end, its nothing more than express buses. On the high end, its dedicated busways. I agree that building a dedicated busway to the beaches would be insane. However, a few improvements at intersections to make express buses more efficient would be a viable option of BRT, imo.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:15:36 PM
NYC is not building a subway system from scratch. They have had a system for over 100 years.
my dear misinformed friend, this line being built is akin to a new line, this new line isn't an extension, expansion or replacement if an existing subway line, it is a new line from scratch which will not (via revenue trackage) connect with any other existing line. It is a new subway.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:15:36 PM
BRT can be many things. On the low end, its nothing more than express buses. On the high end, its dedicated busways. I agree that building a dedicated busway to the beaches would be insane. However, a few improvements at intersections to make express buses more efficient would be a viable option of BRT, imo.
we are battling about semantics. first thing to do is see if there is a need or demand for this type of service from the beaches. what might make more sense is running more buses with limited stops along beach and atlantic
Quote from: apvbguy on September 06, 2008, 07:45:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:15:36 PM
NYC is not building a subway system from scratch. They have had a system for over 100 years.
my dear misinformed friend, this line being built is akin to a new line, this new line isn't an extension, expansion or replacement if an existing subway line, it is a new line from scratch which will not (via revenue trackage) connect with any other existing line. It is a new subway.
Again, NYC is a city that already has subways. I also can't imagine them building a new line that does not connect at all with the current network they already have. Imo, this means it would be expansion, not starting a complete system up from scratch.
To clear things up, all I meant was you'll be hard pressed to find an American city that does not already have them talking about spending billions to create heavy rail systems. In most American cities, other forms of rail transit are more feasible. Sorry for the confusion.
When adding a transit line in Manhattan, you really don't have many options. Regardless of what other cities are doing, a subway does not make sense for Jacksonville.
Quote from: apvbguy on September 06, 2008, 07:48:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:15:36 PM
BRT can be many things. On the low end, its nothing more than express buses. On the high end, its dedicated busways. I agree that building a dedicated busway to the beaches would be insane. However, a few improvements at intersections to make express buses more efficient would be a viable option of BRT, imo.
we are battling about semantics. first thing to do is see if there is a need or demand for this type of service from the beaches. what might make more sense is running more buses with limited stops along beach and atlantic
I wasn't arguing, I was only trying to clear up the point I was making. I agree with the second half of this statement. Running buses with limited stops is a simplistic form of BRT.
The Second Avenue Subway project will include a two-track line along Second Avenue from 125th Street to the Financial District in Lower Manhattan. It will also include a connection from Second Avenue through the 63rd Street tunnel to existing tracks for service to West Midtown and Brooklyn. Sixteen new ADA accessible stations will be constructed.
The Second Avenue Subway will reduce overcrowding and delays on the Lexington Avenue line, improving travel for both city and suburban commuters, and provide better access to mass transit for residents of the far East Side of Manhattan. Stations will have a combination of escalators, stairs, and in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, elevator connections from street-level to station mezzanine and from mezzanine to platforms.
Under the current plan, the project will be built in four phases. Phase One will include tunnels from 105th Street and Second Avenue to 63rd Street and Third Avenue, with new stations along Second Avenue at 96th, 86th and 72nd Streets and new entrances to the existing Lexington Av/63 Street Station at 63rd Street and Third Avenue.
It is the Subway equal of the Alameda Corridor in California, a new shortcut on new track. Future plans call for consolidation of several weaker routes onto this corridor. End the end, the project track miles might shrink and passenger miles increase.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:53:47 PM
Again, NYC is a city that already has subways. I also can't imagine them building a new line that does not connect at all with the current network they already have. Imo, this means it would be expansion, not starting a complete system up from scratch.
regardless of what you could or could not imagine, that is exactly what is being built in NYC. Thanks for playing, see you next issue
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:53:47 PM
To clear things up, all I meant was you'll be hard pressed to find an American city that does not already have them talking about spending billions to create heavy rail systems. In most American cities, other forms of rail transit are more feasible. Sorry for the confusion.
have you ever heard of Los Angeles?
try googling MTA and then search for LA's MTA and see what they've built in the recent past and what is planned.
A bit older but applicable is the DC metro, about 25 years old now, built from scratch.
The point is that yes like you say heavy rail costs are a huge impediment to new construction and most places have or are planning lite rail, but heavy rail is far from dead
Quote from: Lunican on September 06, 2008, 07:56:59 PM
When adding a transit line in Manhattan, you really don't have many options. Regardless of what other cities are doing, a subway does not make sense for Jacksonville.
do you know NYC? I can offer a half a dozen places where lite rail could and should be built in NYC but that isn't the focus here
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 06, 2008, 08:38:22 PM
The Second Avenue Subway project will include a two-track line along Second Avenue from 125th Street to the Financial District in Lower Manhattan. It will also include a connection from Second Avenue through the 63rd Street tunnel to existing tracks for service to West Midtown and Brooklyn. Sixteen new ADA accessible stations will be constructed.
The Second Avenue Subway will reduce overcrowding and delays on the Lexington Avenue line, improving travel for both city and suburban commuters, and provide better access to mass transit for residents of the far East Side of Manhattan. Stations will have a combination of escalators, stairs, and in compliance with the Americans with Disabilities Act, elevator connections from street-level to station mezzanine and from mezzanine to platforms.
Under the current plan, the project will be built in four phases. Phase One will include tunnels from 105th Street and Second Avenue to 63rd Street and Third Avenue, with new stations along Second Avenue at 96th, 86th and 72nd Streets and new entrances to the existing Lexington Av/63 Street Station at 63rd Street and Third Avenue.
It is the Subway equal of the Alameda Corridor in California, a new shortcut on new track. Future plans call for consolidation of several weaker routes onto this corridor. End the end, the project track miles might shrink and passenger miles increase.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock you're right the initial section will tie into that tunnel, once the whole line is completed it will run to lower manhattan and save that one connection it is a stand alone line
New York City currently has a couple of LRT/Streetcar plans coming up. So does Washington DC, neither of which has had LRT/Streetcar in a long-long time.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: apvbguy on September 06, 2008, 11:34:22 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 07:53:47 PM
To clear things up, all I meant was you'll be hard pressed to find an American city that does not already have them talking about spending billions to create heavy rail systems. In most American cities, other forms of rail transit are more feasible. Sorry for the confusion.
have you ever heard of Los Angeles?
try googling MTA and then search for LA's MTA and see what they've built in the recent past and what is planned.
A bit older but applicable is the DC metro, about 25 years old now, built from scratch.
The point is that yes like you say heavy rail costs are a huge impediment to new construction and most places have or are planning lite rail, but heavy rail is far from dead
LA already has heavy rail. Its been operating for 15 years. Why argue for the sake of arguing?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 07, 2008, 12:26:51 AM
New York City currently has a couple of LRT/Streetcar plans coming up. So does Washington DC, neither of which has had LRT/Streetcar in a long-long time.
OCKLAWAHA
what is planned in NYC?
Quote, what needs to be determined first is what level of service is needed and then if warranted use express buses that pick up in few stops at the beaches and makes a loop around the core.
Uh, JTA already is doing that. In FACT with nice MCI over-the-road motor coaches rather then the less refined city bus fleet. OCKLAWAHA
I couldn't find the post that had the proposed rail sites, so I will ask this question here. Is any thought in these initial studies being given to the future as it relates to potential transfer sites? Is the idea that even 50 years from now all riders must go downtown, because that is the impression I have gotten from what I have been seeing. For example, let's say at some point in time rail extends to the Regency area. If a rider wished to take the train to a southern point such as the Mandarin area, it seems like per the present ideas the rider would have to go downtown to transfer to the correct train. Shouldn't one of the San Marco stations serve as a transfer station so that anyone riding downtown from Regency would pass thru that station and have the option to transfer to points south from San Marco? Is that already in the works and I have missed it? I know the initial network will be small and mainly serve the inner core, but is there any thought to plan for the future by constructing stations that have the capacity to one day serve as a transfer station?
QuoteI couldn't find the post that had the proposed rail sites, so I will ask this question here. Is any thought in these initial studies being given to the future as it relates to potential transfer sites? Is the idea that even 50 years from now all riders must go downtown, because that is the impression I have gotten from what I have been seeing. For example, let's say at some point in time rail extends to the Regency area. If a rider wished to take the train to a southern point such as the Mandarin area, it seems like per the present ideas the rider would have to go downtown to transfer to the correct train. Shouldn't one of the San Marco stations serve as a transfer station so that anyone riding downtown from Regency would pass thru that station and have the option to transfer to points south from San Marco? Is that already in the works and I have missed it? I know the initial network will be small and mainly serve the inner core, but is there any thought to plan for the future by constructing stations that have the capacity to one day serve as a transfer station?
The initial Commuter Rail network would be about 30 - 60 - 90 -120 miles depending on which segments are built first or if we open all of it or part of it as a system.
Serious consideration is now being given to LIGHT RAIL to the beaches, it might be phased as
Downtown - Arlington
Arlington - Regency
Regency - Beaches
Light rail would probably follow the Arlington Expressway and cross the new Matthews Bridge.
Due to railroad geography all trains would head for UNION TERMINAL where cross the platform connections could be made just as in Dallas, Denver etc.
We can have the edge on all of these other cities by building out the Skyway to the stadium, San Marco, Riverside. Also building a local streetcar starter line. These would allow a passenger wanting to avoid UNION TERMINAL or to stop over in downtown the option of transfering at San Marco/Stadium/Riverside stations and using alternate transport.
Another hidden benefit, with rail up and runnning the current bus fleet will give us twice the coverage of the present system. Dozens of new routes open up as connectors and cut across lines, as nearly every one of the buses currently trudges into downtown to connect. That system will be gone, with buses doing the local work and the rail doing most of the trunk lines. If the choice of trolley bus really happens, our BRT lines might even do it fixed (meaning new development) and green. OCKLAWAHA
Plus Ock, a "loop" could also be built inside the I295 beltway to connect points around the core. Atlanta has a similar concept proposed. Theirs, as you know, is a radial system that reaches the suburbs but will also have a loop line surrounding the core to better connect the "arms" reaching the burbs and to remove some of the load from their 5 points station.
I like the concept of the loop and that would address what I was thinking. Also, the proposal stated with the extended skyway service would work too, though not quite as well. I understand the limitations and I am really thinking very long term here. That's why I was wondering whether when sites are picked for stations it gives the potential for future expansion. I just worry about the waste you see so frequently with expressways. The determination is made to add an extra lane when 2 extra lanes are really needed. They add one, it takes years to complete, and within 5 years they begin construction on the other. Why not just wait until the funding is there and build 2 at once? So I was just worried that you build a station, then 15 years later say, oh, whoops, we need more room here and this site won't work, now what?
That's why, as many have stated, a comprehensive long term plans needs to be completed before anymore transportation modifications are started. That'll weed out most of the problems down the road.
(http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/ottawa-light-rail-01.jpg)
Get out your big purple crayons boys and girls, here are a couple of maps so YOU can show us your stuff!(http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/AboutSydney/images/ParkingAndTransport/LightRail/Artist-impression-Light-rail.jpg)
QuoteQuoteQuoteI couldn't find the post that had the proposed rail sites, so I will ask this question here. Is any thought in these initial studies being given to the future as it relates to potential transfer sites?
Plus Ock, a "loop" could also be built inside the I295 beltway to connect points around the core. Atlanta has a similar concept proposed. Theirs, as you know, is a radial system that reaches the suburbs but will also have a loop line surrounding the core to better connect the "arms" reaching the burbs and to remove some of the load from their 5 points station.
I like the concept of the loop and that would address what I was thinking. Also, the proposal stated with the extended skyway service would work too, though not quite as well. I understand the limitations and I am really thinking very long term here. That's why I was wondering whether when sites are picked for stations it gives the potential for future expansion.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/JAXDOWNTOWNTRANSITMAP.png)
Here's a map of downtown rail lines, with my proposed SKYWAY and STREETCAR build-out for the core. Note I did NOT include LRT to the beaches on the New Matthews Bridge/Tunnel as this proposal is dependent on a new bridge or tunnel. In the core the LRT would/could use the streetcar lines. This also shows the Skyway build out, with the possible exception of the Court House, but in consideration of much cheaper Trolley Bus, this is probably all the Skyway needs to be useful. Note the transfer from Commuter Rail to Skyway at the FEC and Atlantic in San Marco, negates the current consultants plans for a complex rail station at Prudential Drive. Also note that the "S" line is split in my concept, the Springfield Jct - Gateway Mall portion becomes Streetcar/LRT, and the Springfield Jct - Union Terminal portion becomes Commuter Rail.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/JACKSONVILLERRMAP.png)
Backing off on the focus, this gives everyone a broad view of the current rails in Jacksonville, with the only addition being the "S" line. The "S" was once the Seaboard Air Line Railroads mainline between Richmond, VA and Miami, FL. Today part of it is preserved as an urban trail, the other 50% is growing up in weeds. It runs from Gateway Mall to Union Station in a giant backward "S".(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/SHANDSTRANSITWAY.jpg)
PEACE OUT JACKSONVILLE!
OCKLAWAHA
Nice picture Ock.....I like it.
What is the possibility and time frame realistically in seeing either a light rail or a commuter rail system in place in the Jacksonville Area?
The Clay county commuter rail line could in theory start construction late next year if the Orlando deal goes through. Maybe two years after to ride.
We could start on the Jacksonville owned S line anytime but much more in the way of construction.
Probably a decade with the JTA, FTA and city all involved. If it were a priority and locally funded, we could have a short starter line running in three years or so.
Sad, but I guess 10 years is better than nothing.
So, is Clay County on the "fast track" (no pun intended)? What is the significance of the Orlando deal?
No Clay is not on the fast track. However, that entire line (CSX A) between Clay and Downtown will get a boost if the Orlando deal goes through. The boost will come in the form of the Orlando deal requiring a significant portion of existing and future freight traffic to be shifted over to the CSX S Line. This means there will be capacity here for potential commuter rail along that corridor, making it ideal for quick implementation. Btw, this deal would also fund CSX's Springfield bypass for JaxPort traffic, which would have the side effect of clearing the Northside lines for commuter rail as well.
So forget about the FTA then. let's get it going in three years or so!
of course, with the Metrolink crash out in LA, and considering we'd also be sharing freight and commuter on the same track, now I'd definitely like to have that automatic braking technology in place, which would mean higher costs...
Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2008, 03:08:27 PM
Probably a decade with the JTA, FTA and city all involved. If it were a priority and locally funded, we could have a short starter line running in three years or so.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on September 17, 2008, 05:45:56 PM
So forget about the FTA then. let's get it going in three years or so!
Right on! I've been on board with this idea since I found out the city already has $100 million set aside, that freight traffic being reduced on the CSX A and that the city already owns the S-Line ROW. That's more than enough to get a starter up and running and to fund annual O&M expenses for a couple of years.
Quoteof course, with the Metrolink crash out in LA, and considering we'd also be sharing freight and commuter on the same track, now I'd definitely like to have that automatic braking technology in place, which would mean higher costs...
With limited freight on that line, you could probably get away with passenger trains using the track in the day and freight overnight. That's the way it works with New Jersey's RiverLink and that's what Orlando is shooting for. Nevertheless, if you have a conductor text messaging instead of paying attention to the track signals, you could still have passenger trains run into each other so automatic braking should be considered.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 11, 2008, 03:55:04 PM
We can have the edge on all of these other cities by building out the Skyway to the stadium, San Marco, Riverside. Also building a local streetcar starter line. These would allow a passenger wanting to avoid UNION TERMINAL or to stop over in downtown the option of transfering at San Marco/Stadium/Riverside stations and using alternate transport.
Another hidden benefit, with rail up and runnning the current bus fleet will give us twice the coverage of the present system. Dozens of new routes open up as connectors and cut across lines, as nearly every one of the buses currently trudges into downtown to connect. That system will be gone, with buses doing the local work and the rail doing most of the trunk lines. If the choice of trolley bus really happens, our BRT lines might even do it fixed (meaning new development) and green.
IMHO that is what they should do first and NOW!! Take care of those people first. Then move to the outer realm.
Quote from: Jason on September 12, 2008, 09:50:53 AM
Plus Ock, a "loop" could also be built inside the I295 beltway to connect points around the core. Atlanta has a similar concept proposed. Theirs, as you know, is a radial system that reaches the suburbs but will also have a loop line surrounding the core to better connect the "arms" reaching the burbs and to remove some of the load from their 5 points station.
That loop is the final part or what MARTA is doing up here. Many riders would like for the line to extended north, but the Atlanta Metro government is like 12 governments in one, Jacksonville has it easier one government controls everything. They have also proposed an Amtrak/Marta/Greyhound building/station like Jacksonville has. I'm curious to see which one actually gets built first.
QuoteWith limited freight on that line, you could probably get away with passenger trains using the track in the day and freight overnight. That's the way it works with New Jersey's RiverLink and that's what Orlando is shooting for. Nevertheless, if you have a conductor text messaging instead of paying attention to the track signals, we could still have passenger trains run into each other so automatic braking should be considered
ATC or PTC (automatic train control or positive train control) are available off the shelf. These are signal systems with small electronic interfaces with the train or locomotive controls. Run a red signal, and the brakes set up - halting the train. It is already in use in our area, and frankly isn't THAT much more then regular signals. Do we put a price on the lives saved? If so, how much?
Passenger by day and freight by night isn't going to fly on our CSX A line, FEC line or CSX west or central FL "S" line. Maybe the old "S" line in downtown Jax, but even north of the Trout, it could be the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. As port traffic picks up, there will be increasing pressure to route it off of the passenger route, over a detour, or open-access terminal company.
Lastly, I know what the news broadcast said, but they are simply WRONG. Conductors don't run trains, and whatever the conductor was doing, he wasn't in the locomotive. My understanding is that the engineer was killed and the conductor badly injured....He was at the bottom of the stairs under a few other passengers. While I don't support the "old" full crew rules, that many states held until about 1970, I would favor a modified passenger train crew rule, but this wouldn't have much effect on commuter districts, it might add a few to Amtrak's rolls.
CREW BOSS/TRAIN CAPTAIN: The Conductor
Location:
Locomotive - Engineer + Flagman
Baggage Car - Baggage Master
Passenger coaches - 1 attendant per 2 cars.
Dining Car - Chef - 2 assistants - 2 food servers - passenger services representative
Lounge - Bar tender - 1-2 assistants and servers
Sleeping Cars - 1 porter per 2 cars
Featured Long-Distance "cruise trains" roaming - RN , PA or Paramedic
Featured Long-Distance "cruise trains" fixed location - Hair, nail, stylist, massage therapist.
roaming - Brakeman
roaming - ConductorOCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 17, 2008, 09:24:12 PM
QuoteWith limited freight on that line, you could probably get away with passenger trains using the track in the day and freight overnight. That's the way it works with New Jersey's RiverLink and that's what Orlando is shooting for. Nevertheless, if you have a conductor text messaging instead of paying attention to the track signals, we could still have passenger trains run into each other so automatic braking should be considered
Passenger by day and freight by night isn't going to fly on our CSX A line, FEC line or CSX west or central FL "S" line. Maybe the old "S" line in downtown Jax, but even north of the Trout, it could be the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. As port traffic picks up, there will be increasing pressure to route it off of the passenger route, over a detour, or open-access terminal company. OCKLAWAHA
I have a question for you, Ock. Why would passenger rail during the day/freight at night work on the Orlando portion of the CSX A, but not between Downtown and Clay County? Assuming the Orlando deal goes through, other than the trains to the paper mill and power plant in Palaka, what other big rail customers are there between Downtown Jax and the proposed Orlando commuter rail line?
A fairly solid stream of concrete plants and building materials from downtown all the way to the Port of Palatka. There is a weekday turn (also called drill or peddler trians) that go out and work these daily customers. Add in a dedicated block of cars to the papermill from two different railroads (NS and CSX) Part of the deal in allowing the abandonment of NS to Palatka was getting that support call that allows them access to the mill via CSX from JAX. (still a huge mistake by FDOT - another story - another time). The utilitie trains run in a non-stop cycle, in fact they never stop if they are earning their keep. They load on the move and unload while moving. Time of arrival depends on the overall cycle schedule.
We are unique in our flip on the schedules of Florida. Even if Amtrak loads us up with trains, the pattern has ALWAYS been southbound in the morning, Northbound in the evening. So if Amtrak recovers the 8 oir so daily trains cut during the last 30 years, we have to sprint around them going the wrong way. This is why I keep pushing JTA to get Amtrak to our rail meetings and get them involved NOW. We can't afford to scrap one in favor of the other, when we can easily have both. It's all in the signals, what do you see? I see high green all the way!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 17, 2008, 10:47:57 PM
A fairly solid stream of concrete plants and building materials from downtown all the way to the Port of Palatka. There is a weekday turn (also called drill or peddler trians) that go out and work these daily customers. Add in a dedicated block of cars to the papermill from two different railroads (NS and CSX) Part of the deal in allowing the abandonment of NS to Palatka was getting that support call that allows them access to the mill via CSX from JAX. (still a huge mistake by FDOT - another story - another time). The utilitie trains run in a non-stop cycle, in fact they never stop if they are earning their keep. They load on the move and unload while moving. Time of arrival depends on the overall cycle schedule.
How do these compare with the freight line RiverLine runs on between Camden and Trenton, NJ? That one appears to be a lot more congested, yet they were able to overcome this. However, NJ Transit purchased that line from Conrail for $67 million. Also, how will CSX continue to serve the significant number of rail customers in the Orlando area? Personally, I believe there will be enough capacity to run both freight and commuter rail at the same time, but I'm interested in learning more about how these other cities have gotten those types of deals approved.
QuoteWe are unique in our flip on the schedules of Florida. Even if Amtrak loads us up with trains, the pattern has ALWAYS been southbound in the morning, Northbound in the evening. So if Amtrak recovers the 8 oir so daily trains cut during the last 30 years, we have to sprint around them going the wrong way. This is why I keep pushing JTA to get Amtrak to our rail meetings and get them involved NOW. We can't afford to scrap one in favor of the other, when we can easily have both. It's all in the signals, what do you see? I see high green all the way![/color][/b]
OCKLAWAHA
Amtrak should definately be there. They are a key player in Jax, when it comes to improving local passenger service.
On Tuesday, Clay County approved $5 million dollars to buy 29 acres in the Doctors Inlet area for a future transit station. The property is south and west of the intersection of County Road 220 and the CSX railroad line.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092708/nec_336932926.shtml
Man, that story was buried a little too deep.........
Quote from: blizz01 on September 27, 2008, 09:13:47 AM
On Tuesday, Clay County approved $5 million dollars to buy 29 acres in the Doctors Inlet area for a future transit station. The property is south and west of the intersection of County Road 220 and the CSX railroad line.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092708/nec_336932926.shtml
Man, that story was buried a little too deep.........
That is good news all of that area seems to be developing so fast I was afraid that parcel would not be available when we finally get transit started. Personal not this is where I would catch the train and ride into downtown every day.