JTA prepared to break ground on downtown transit hub
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JAXIS/i-PDpR6Zs/0/L/20170119_DDRB%20Title-L.jpg)
2017 is shaping up to be a transformative year for transportation initiatives throughout Jacksonville's urban core. This week, the JTA will seek Downtown Development Review Board (DDRB) conceptual design approval for the heart of their long proposed Jacksonville Intermodal Center (JAXIS). Here's a look at what will replace a sea of surface parking lots across the street from downtown Jacksonville's Prime Osborn Convention Center. The JTA plans to begin construction on the first phase of the downtown transportation center in Winter 2017.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2017-jan-jta-prepared-to-break-ground-on-downtown-transit-hub
Is the parking lot next to the building sufficient? What happens if there is an event at the convention center? I was under the (erroneous) impression there would be a garage built.
^They can always add a parking garage later, if and when the demand is there.
From what I remember, the garage, park, and more levels to the office building are later if needed. I am still confused where the Greyhound station is going.
I am so looking forward to getting this under construction and seeing this area start to fill in.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on January 20, 2017, 10:58:58 AM
From what I remember, the garage, park, and more levels to the office building are later if needed. I am still confused where the Greyhound station is going.
Greyhound will be located at the NW corner of Forsyth and Stuart Streets (#3 on the site plan map below).
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JAXIS/i-fkgjChs/0/L/20170119_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_67-L.jpg)
Was Greyhound moved to be closer to the CC? I seem to remember it was a another block further from it.
Ennis, is there any rough timeline on the pedestrian plaza?
Or is that TBD?
One thing I have always found of interest, and I think provides insight into the core thought process of people who decide these things, is the arrangement of the Bus Transfer Facility. In this rendering you can see the compact nature of it and how it is designed primarily for the convenience of the human passenger by minimizing walking distance and increasing safety by eliminating the need to cross a driveway. Contrast this with the existing Rosa Parks Station or better yet, the downtown transit station in Oklahoma City completed a few years ago where the passenger was a total afterthought.
Quote from: vicupstate on January 20, 2017, 12:35:13 PM
Was Greyhound moved to be closer to the CC? I seem to remember it was a another block further from it.
Yes. After Nat Ford joined JTA, the entire complex was redesigned to take up less space and drop the construction costs down. Here's one of the old plans:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3472490263_pCWHdxt-600x1000.jpg)
Shrinking the amount of space used is probably a good thing, but I'm concerned by the seeming removal of retail spots. It seems like a transit hub should have at least some retail spots.
The new plan has retail. The old plan's retail spots would have ended up being empty anyway. Given the speed of traffic heading east to Forsyth Street, from the I-95 off-ramp, that little retail cluster would have been a pretty horrible pedestrian scale environment to be in. In addition, consolidation creates more opportunity for infill TOD and adjacent development like Lofts at LaVilla. So better placed and integrated retail is still a strong future possibility.
Looks pretty good IMO, that whole area is pretty grim, this will be a start to something great I hope for the whole area
Quote from: thelakelander on January 20, 2017, 02:13:16 PM
The new plan has retail. The old plan's retail spots would have ended up being empty anyway. Given the speed of traffic heading east to Forsyth Street, from the I-95 off-ramp, that little retail cluster would have been a pretty horrible pedestrian scale environment to be in. In addition, consolidation creates more opportunity for infill TOD and adjacent development like Lofts at LaVilla. So better placed and integrated retail is still a strong future possibility.
Ah, I missed that. Thanks for clarifying.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 20, 2017, 12:52:18 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on January 20, 2017, 12:35:13 PM
Was Greyhound moved to be closer to the CC? I seem to remember it was a another block further from it.
Yes. After Nat Ford joined JTA, the entire complex was redesigned to take up less space and drop the construction costs down. Here's one of the old plans:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3472490263_pCWHdxt-600x1000.jpg)
Thanks Lake. He earned his salary with that decision. Now just move the trains back into the CC and this is a real winner.
Regarding rail, they've applied for a federal grant to upgrade the rail infrastructure. If awarded, it will help freight congestion and pave the way for the return of passenger rail.
Question, that area with the tent and people on the grounds, is that just lipstick for the rendering or is that actually going to be a viable area? Just curious.
^That public square seems to be presented as a future phase. However, it does not appear that it is budgeted.
Thanks
If one assumes that one day commuter trains will also pull into the Convention Center property, maybe they should have put all this on the same block as the convention center (closer to the rail r-o-w and lines) and extended the Skyway tracks into the CC's rear parking lot. Commuter train users making transfers are going to have a bit of a walk to urban core transit with this plan. A parking garage and/or other surrounding land could be used to replace the existing CC lot.
Also, is there any provision for taxi/uber/lyft/auto passenger/handicapped drop-off lanes? Some people making connections to buses, in particular, may want to transfer here.
Much improved but still no cigar from me.
1. The plan ignores the historic station which could be repurposed with demolition of most of the convention center box (added behind the historic station).
2. The convention center is perfectly sized for a city the size of Palatka, thus it is disfunctional.
3. The new JRTC still follows the FDOT in the convoluted idea that a multimodal transportation hub is a collection of stations, one for each mode clustered near each other (Miami Multimodal) rather than a true multimodal hub with a single common waiting room, ticketing and restaurant area with separate gates and platforms for the. Ariosto modes (Milwaukee Intermodal Station).
4. Passengers moving from Amtrak or Brightline to JTA, Greyhound, Megabus or Skyway will have to drag their bags up to 3 city blocks, with ramps, escalators and various concourses just to find the right waiting transfer area.
5. Without Brightline or Amtrak as integral included units we will not fully realize the economic synergy of new rail development and make commuter rail possibilities fade due to isolation.
At best I predict a beautifully disfunctional office and Station complex permanently hobbled by isolation and desolation.
It would be great if a solution for moving the convention center was in place, that could have resulted in Greyhound being moved south of Bay Street. Unfortunately, JTA has no control over the future of the convention center or the money and land to move it. Hopefully, we'll get some better clarification on the future of the convention center over the next few months.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/Los_Angeles_Union_Station.jpg)
Aerial of LA's Union Station from wikipedia
However, from a transit perspective, it's a 0.22 mile walk from potential commuter rail/Amtrak/Brightline rail platforms to the Greyhound terminal. Everything else (BRT, local bus, Skyway, etc.) is located between those two. Using LA's Union Station for comparison's sake, it's a 0.23 mile walk from the grand lobby to the bus platforms, with LRT/Amtrak/commuter rail rail platforms in the middle. However, the closest Greyhound terminal is 1.7 mile drive down Alameda Street. I also recall, taking BRT to Union Station and getting dropped off next to a freeway. To get to Union Station's grand lobby from the closest BRT stop, I had to walk the perimeter of the Union Station site and through a small parking lot to get to the grand lobby. In this case, the current JRTC is more consolidated than LA's Union Station (a great station, IMO).
(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/4163450173_KzjvF8D-L.jpg)
2015 construction image of Brooklyn Riverside development at Lee Street viaduct.
Also, factors beyond JTA's and the center's design will most likely not result in it being isolated. New development (Brooklyn Riverside) mushrooming in Brooklyn is literally on the other side of McCoys Creek already. Vesctor is currently building infill affordable housing (Lofts at LaVilla) directly across the Lee Street.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UrbanConstructionUpdateNovembe/i-mLSMZsT/0/XL/20161119_101616-XL.jpg)
November 2016 construction pic of Lofts at LaVilla site
Vestcor is also planning a second infill multifamily housing project just northeast at Lee and Adams. Beneficial Communities is planning to break ground on Houston Street Manor at Houston and Jefferson Streets as well. The mix of cheap publicly owned vacant land and Brooklyn's popularity has high potential to introduce more urban development on the underutilized parcels adjacent to the JRTC.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-gMpxfwk/0/L/20151217_DDRB%20Meeting%20Packet2_Page_38A-L-L.jpg)
Rendering of Houston Street Manor
While it would be great if the convention center were gone and the entire JRTC could be built south of Bay Street, even in its current configuration, it won't be isolated. In fact, its more likely that a couple thousand new downtown residents could be living within a couple blocks of the site before the JRTC is completed in 2019.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 20, 2017, 11:51:05 PMAlso, is there any provision for taxi/uber/lyft/auto passenger/handicapped drop-off lanes? Some people making connections to buses, in particular, may want to transfer here.
The Kiss and Ride area is located next to Greyhound at Forsyth and Stuart Streets.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 20, 2017, 11:55:47 PM
Much improved but still no cigar from me.
While a quarter mile walk is not long or far, and many new residents will improve the barren moonscape, the canon of unnecessary sprawl and duplication of space remains in this design.
What's the rush?
Why not wait to break ground until the Convention Center plan is also in place?
Rush? They've only been planning this thing for 20 years or so. Currently, the city has no plans to do anything with the convention center. Some believe Khan wants a convention center next to EverBank Field but if he doesn't pay for it, the Prime Osborn will be sitting where its at for at least another decade because it isn't a priority of the current administration.
Overall, the amount of duplication at this point is pretty limited. You don't need a grand lobby or waiting area to catch a city bus, BRT or the Skyway. BRT and local bus platforms are being build around a Skyway station that's been there since the 1980s. Such a use at that location makes sense regardless of if trains return to the terminal or not.
The Greyhound station is the one you'd see some duplication, assuming rail returned to the terminal in a later phase. So we're literally talking about the Greyhound station being a block south instead of where it's proposed now. I'm not sure we can call that sprawl. However, of all things to consider, it's not as bad of an issue as it was in the original plan and holding transit up for another 10-20 years to deal (or not deal) with the convention center doesn't seem worthwhile either. Ultimately, if and when the convention center problem is resolved, fill that space with more rail, a relocated Greyhound station (even if Khan wants a convention center, it's still years down the road) or complementing transit oriented development.
Quote from: ricker on January 21, 2017, 11:11:59 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 20, 2017, 11:55:47 PM
Much improved but still no cigar from me.
While a quarter mile walk is not long or far,...
Not sure about this if it's during a thunderstorm or on a sunny humid summer day.
^I think some perspective is needed.
We're talking about walking inside of an air-conditioned concourse plus crossing Bay Street to access the Skyway, BRT and local buses.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/755530128_kSmwq-M.jpg)
It's basically the same walk you would have had in 1925 if your train arrived at the southernmost platform and you transferred to a streetcar on Bay Street or stopped by a restaurant, bar or hotel on Railroad Row.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/754214608_JKprT-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/754214606_mRksg-M.jpg)
The distance mentioned is the extreme........a walk from McCoys Creek to the Greyhound terminal. Realistically, how many riders do we envision transferring between Greyhound and Brightline or Amtrak?
Also this is that 0.25 mile walk inside of LA's Union Station. If you want to catch Greyhound, you'll need to uber or find another way to go over 1.5 miles down the street to that terminal.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Los-Angeles-June-2011/i-zwVPkbx/2/L/DSC_0301-L.jpg)
(https://coupleoftravels.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/dsc01060.jpg)
You'll walk similar or longer lengths at many of the major transit hubs in cities like NYC, San Francisco, DC and Chicago as you move from the entrance at street level to your rail platform.
You'll also walk further to get to your gate at any airport of decent size:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-8358-p1110940.JPG)
Quote from: thelakelander on January 25, 2017, 12:50:43 PM
^I think some perspective is needed.
We're talking about walking inside of an air-conditioned concourse plus crossing Bay Street to access the Skyway, BRT and local buses.
Ah, I see - thanks, that clears it up for me :-)
Lake, is it an improvement over the Vatican City sized ranch they first proposed? ABSOLUTELY! Is it still full of mindless duplication and extremes that could have been eliminated, ABSOLUTELY!
While I too feel like we've already blown 20 years on this 'coming soon' project, I don't see what another 5 or even 10 would hurt IF it got us a much more efficient and user friendly passenger experience and a more powerful development engine.
Since that is simply not going to happen what did they still do wrong and how could it be/have been corrected?
I think the FDOT/JTA concept that a Transportation Center is supposed to be a 'collection of stations' is just about the silliest notion I've ever heard of. Take Miami's Intermodal Center out by the MIA Airport, within the confines of the same properties there are separate stations, most with their own waiting, ticketing and baggage facilities and each located up those stairs, over on this side, over on that side, second level, end of concourse, turn left and pray you are still heading in the right direction. In a sense, a station for Tri-Rail, a station for Amtrak (a Headhouse type not unlike the original Jax Terml) a station for Miami-Dade Transit buses, a station for Greyhound, a station for the metro-mover, a station for Miami Metrorail.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/F4675C14-40C3-47C5-935D-23C701761C49_zpsgqucgfx8.jpeg)
Miami Intermodal Center.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/37285D37-F2AF-4D88-AAA0-CB58259D2C1C_zpsu7ojw9yb.jpeg)
Miami Intermodal Center.
Compare this with Milwaukee or Anaheim, both of which are dozen's of times simpler than this monstrosity. Both of these cities feature a single waiting room around which all of the traditional travel stores and eateries are clustered. In Milwaukee a single bus concourse on the west end of the station serves some 5-6 intercity bus companies, a single rail concourse (recently elevated and much improved to meet booming traffic demands and new trains) and neither concourse is more than 100' feet long. In Anaheim the City Buses wrap around the sides of the station and the single waiting room, a ticketing area for intercity buses and trains and a grand staircase to the concourse that shoots straight back to intercity buses and Amtrak, Coaster and Metrolink trains, maybe 300' feet in length. The density in the shared spaces are what makes the stations function.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/1C487C60-EF71-4059-BEA9-68BB60008005_zpsd1bqkh7t.png)
Anaheim
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Anaheim
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/730F416F-DB3B-4077-9AEC-413B4A4E8B38_zpsfgxm6geh.png)
Anaheim
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/5D92126B-42CD-4FB1-8672-C1100BE651AE_zpsmozrzmf1.jpeg)
Milwaukee Intermodal
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/5086ED1B-1E41-45BB-A6D1-5B4AE6FDBB80_zpsv7nwme8m.jpeg)
Milwaukee's new rail concourse
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Drawings%20Enhanced%20Images/7E5641BE-9F8A-4C23-BFED-5B7A343D4B04_zpspwtwtgxw.jpeg)
Milwaukee Newest Intermodal Development Engine, and JTA is still chasing rainbows.
Just as you wouldn't want to go out to JIA and find Delta near the front of the parking garage, Southwest over by the main lobby and United down in baggage claim, each with their own ticketing, waiting rooms and other facilities. It would still be an international airport but not a very effective one.
I think what they should have done is shifted the entire main structure from the Skyway Station to the Prime Osborn with West Bay Street running right through below. This would shorten the rail concourse and the Greyhound boarding zones could line up west of the old Flagler Station 'ruins'. All ticketing, waiting, baggage claims could be housed in the main level (equal to the Skyway platforms) and the Admin building could be built above it all. This would open the current isolated Greyhound Station area for parking or TOD. It would be closer to the PO for conventions, and if and when Brightline gets to Jax, it would make the JRTC a more attractive development site. If the PO moves down the road, it puts the JRTC on both sides of Bay and closer to rail.
So, aside from JTA not having any control or ownership of the land south of Bay, you'd essentially save 1/2 block (shifting Greyhound) but significantly increase the capital costs (building over Bay Street) and the complexitiy of pulling the project off because much of the land needed is not owned by the city or JTA.
I'm not saying Milwaukee (btw, where is MCTS's main bus hub?) and Anaheim ($185 million to construct) aren't nice intermodal centers. I'm just saying what the JRTC has consolidated into is sufficient enough and at a decent price point to implement, to not risk waiting another 10-20 years or so of doing nothing in hopes of a slightly better configuration that may never come to fruition.
Yes, I had really rather have seen it built in the style of the Prudential building with the road under it. The purpose would be to centralize the entire heart of the station operations and shorten the concourse length to the rail side. This could be done with or without the missing property considering the land that the city has west of the Prime Osborn. The lots north of Houston Street should be left to future development.
Parasite Carriers are those who refuse to invest in station facilities while skimming passengers from those who do.
JTA/FDOT/COJ seem to have a myopic idea of isolating PAID full service intercity carrier access (Greyhound and Trailways Associates) whilst giving parasite carriers like Megabus, RedCoach and LaCubana a freebie nearer the action. Conceivably the long-distance choice riders that transfer from train to full service bus will have the longest walk.
The flip side of this and one of the reasons Greyhound has balked at several previous try's is that neither Greyhound nor Trailways plays well with the parasite carriers. There is a bunch of space dedicated to grass and fountains extending from the current Skyway Station all the way to Lee Street that would be a better location for the Greyhound.
Where ever you end up placing the actual station, it just shouldn't be a bunch of stations with duplicate facilities. I really wouldn't complain if the main station area M/L where the Skyway Station is today, contained a single large waiting room, side by side ticketing and baggage check in.
Boil it down to:
ONE WAITING ROOM
ONE TICKETING AREA
ONE BAGGAGE AREA
Shared assets, restaurants, gifts, magazines, information etc.
Intercity Rail Concourse
Intercity Bus Concourse
JTA Bus Concourse
Skyway (future automated horizontal elevator's ;)) Concourse
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/9069AB87-033E-4366-9DBA-22A9D1C53F79_zps4tgj8vca.jpeg)
This is what the Greyhound station and Garage look like moved east of the JRTC. Keep in mind if the majority of services were in the main building the footprint would shrink.
Yes, while Greyhound is closer, the costs are significantly increased by adding a multi-level garage above the skyway. Remember, they couldn't get $150 million in funding. No way they would have got +$200 million. Now or 20 years from now.
You'd also have some serious traffic circulation issues with buses, BRT, downtown through traffic and parking garage users all mixing together at the base of a downhill I-95 off-ramp. Half your traffic is speeding and the other half is slowing down, trying to figure out what entrance into the various terminals to take off Forsyth. Then, there's still duplication in regards to waiting areas, ticketing, etc. or Greyhound and Amtrak. Even though Pond showed that block along Lee, between Bay and Forsyth, JTA doesn't own that block either. That's probably why that park (the Greyhound site in your sketch) has been set as a future phase.
With that said, I believe a centralized green space at the intersection of Bay/Forsyth and Lee/Park has great placemaking merit when zooming out and looking at the future relationship of interaction of Brooklyn and LaVilla. As projects like Lofts of LaVilla and Brooklyn Riverside continue to come online, Park becomes an important centralized corridor of connectivity between these two neighborhoods, Five Points, Park & King and downtown (via Bay and Forsyth).
I just copied and pasted the overlay of the Greyhound Terminal with the garage. I wonder what the final product would look like if that Greyhound station was tucked into and M/L under the Skyway in the east end of the JRTC main buildings and the parking garage could fly where it is as part of a mixed use facility.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 29, 2017, 04:49:45 PM
I just copied and pasted the overlay of the Greyhound Terminal with the garage. I wonder what the final product would look like if that Greyhound station was tucked into and M/L under the Skyway in the east end of the JRTC main buildings and the parking garage could fly where it is as part of a mixed use facility.
Doesn't really matter at this point. JTA has its plan and is moving forward with it.
YAAAAAAWWN Ill believe it when it is built....Same old Jacksonville.
It's under construction now.
So was Berman II lol, j/k, I believe this will get finished.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on March 23, 2017, 09:56:32 PM
So was Berman II lol, j/k, I believe this will get finished.
Don't move the goal post. Just breaking ground is a big event in Jax.
Besides, BII is an anomaly. Rarely does dirt turnover and the project go incomplete.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on January 20, 2017, 11:51:05 PM
If one assumes that one day commuter trains will also pull into the Convention Center property, maybe they should have put all this on the same block as the convention center (closer to the rail r-o-w and lines) and extended the Skyway tracks into the CC's rear parking lot. Commuter train users making transfers are going to have a bit of a walk to urban core transit with this plan. A parking garage and/or other surrounding land could be used to replace the existing CC lot.
Also, is there any provision for taxi/uber/lyft/auto passenger/handicapped drop-off lanes? Some people making connections to buses, in particular, may want to transfer here.
No longer of a walk than
Quote from: ricker on January 21, 2017, 11:11:59 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 20, 2017, 11:55:47 PM
Much improved but still no cigar from me.
While a quarter mile walk is not long or far, and many new residents will improve the barren moonscape, the canon of unnecessary sprawl and duplication of space remains in this design.
What's the rush?
Why not wait to break ground until the Convention Center plan is also in place?
JTA's first Regional Transportation Center plan made its debut more than a decade before this new design was unveiled. There is still no Convention Center plan in the works. And nothing even on the drawing board. Guess we could sit and wait another 10 years and see if the city has a CC plan ready.
Work on the site for the new intercity bus terminal (Greyhound/Megabus) well underway. It is now just 56 days until the groundbreaking for the JRTC.
JTA CEO named APTA Chairman. Congrats!!! https://youtu.be/M1PpJ_Ek6zw