http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/01/11/ranking-jacksonville-7th-least-recession-recovered.html?ana=e_ae_set2&s=article_du&ed=2017-01-11&u=f6TgO%2BqIRSUNHdfy8iErhg0ea7131e&t=1484169002&j=77045961
Ug.
That study is flawed in so many ways it is laughable the business journal picked it up. There are far too many variables that are loosely related that were added together (similar to a multicollinearity problem.) Another major flaw of the study is that, based on their criteria, a city that did not suffer from the recession at all would appear to have also not recovered.
From what I've seen from wallethub, it's about like JD Power awards for cars. Great to throw on your marketing material if you win, but certainly not something to take seriously or worry about if you don't.
Whatever their methodology - I agree with the conclusion. I recently moved into an apartment in downtown Oklahoma City where I live a few weeks a month. I am simply amazed at the amount of urban core development there. There are dozens and dozens of projects under construction and then I come back to downtown Jax and it looks like almost nothing is going on by comparison. In 2 years OKC will have completed their 23rd downtown hotel since 2000. 4 new downtown hotels were just announced 2 weeks ago. Last downtown hotel in Jax was when?
I don't think the recession has anything to do with Jacksonville not investing in it's downtown. Sometimes cheap is just cheap
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 08, 2017, 07:07:07 PM
I don't think the recession has anything to do with Jacksonville not investing in it's downtown. Sometimes cheap is just cheap
Maybe, but I don't get it. Hotels have been so easy to finance for the last 10 years - banks literally giving away the money for anyone who can throw together a loan application. Why are no local developers getting on the bandwagon? Downtown Jax should have 30 hotels. What is Jax not doing that seemingly every other City in America is doing? Are we just throwing all our tourist development dollars at the Jags and leaving nothing for anything else?
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 08, 2017, 07:07:07 PM
I don't think the recession has anything to do with Jacksonville not investing in it's downtown. Sometimes cheap is just cheap
Maybe, but I don't get it. Hotels have been so easy to finance for the last 10 years - banks literally giving away the money for anyone who can throw together a loan application. Why are no local developers getting on the bandwagon? Downtown Jax should have 30 hotels. What is Jax not doing that seemingly every other City in America is doing? Are we just throwing all our tourist development dollars at the Jags and leaving nothing for anything else?
Why would downtown Jacksonville need 30 hotels?
Quote from: Tacachale on March 09, 2017, 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 08, 2017, 07:07:07 PM
I don't think the recession has anything to do with Jacksonville not investing in it's downtown. Sometimes cheap is just cheap
Maybe, but I don't get it. Hotels have been so easy to finance for the last 10 years - banks literally giving away the money for anyone who can throw together a loan application. Why are no local developers getting on the bandwagon? Downtown Jax should have 30 hotels. What is Jax not doing that seemingly every other City in America is doing? Are we just throwing all our tourist development dollars at the Jags and leaving nothing for anything else?
Why would downtown Jacksonville need 30 hotels?
Unless supply creates demand, it seems like there would be an awful large number of empty hotel rooms.
I don't even know if there are 30 hotels in COJ lol
The Beaches need more hotels but they don't want anything built over 35 feet.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 09, 2017, 10:40:51 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 10:39:12 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 08, 2017, 07:07:07 PM
I don't think the recession has anything to do with Jacksonville not investing in it's downtown. Sometimes cheap is just cheap
Maybe, but I don't get it. Hotels have been so easy to finance for the last 10 years - banks literally giving away the money for anyone who can throw together a loan application. Why are no local developers getting on the bandwagon? Downtown Jax should have 30 hotels. What is Jax not doing that seemingly every other City in America is doing? Are we just throwing all our tourist development dollars at the Jags and leaving nothing for anything else?
Why would downtown Jacksonville need 30 hotels?
It doesn't.
Kerry, your comparison omits the fact that we are much more spread out than OKC, almost 40% larger in land area. Then think about the beaches that are a draw and many hotel nights for our area are spent there. Just because another city is doing it doesn't mean it is right for JAX.
There is demand for hotels - they are being built everywhere, except downtown and the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. The funny thing about hotels is their economic impact when clustered together. This is amplified when they are clustered together in a walkable area. 1000 different people every night looking for places to eat and ways to be entertained.
Quote from: Gators312 on March 09, 2017, 10:55:45 AM
Kerry, your comparison omits the fact that we are much more spread out than OKC, almost 40% larger in land area. Then think about the beaches that are a draw and many hotel nights for our area are spent there. Just because another city is doing it doesn't mean it is right for JAX.
More spread out than OKC? OKC covers 607 sq miles and while Jax covers 747 but the vast majority of Jax doesn't have any development at all. Metro OKC covers 6,300 sq miles and has the same population as metro Jax.
Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything. Self-defeat works every time.
Meanwhile - 19 hotels adjacent to the airport, with the majority of them being built in the last few years. And no, those people aren't all flying out of JIA at 7AM.
I think we all have our own personal take on this, and it pretty much comes from where we were when the crash happened.
I'm guessing, and Kerry you can confirm, that you're a PM/Super for commercial mid-rise construction. If you were doing the same thing a a decade ago, your thought makes sense and it kind of explains why you're happen to be in another city. Jax is coming around, but from where I was, we were decimated.
I was in residential construction from about '02 - '08, so without reading the article and with no 'world'view, just what I experienced here in Jax, I'm surprised that we aren't much higher on the list.
I say this without know the construction tendencies in other areas, but I can attest that during the peak, I personally was responsible for 5-6 starts a month for a period of about 3 years. Now multiply that by however many hundreds of other superintendents right here in Jax. I was building 250k-500k spec homes that were being bought and sold upwards of 2 to 4 times from slab to finish - mostly investors. When the bubble burst, I was one of tens of thousands that went from a very livable paycheck to unemployed overnight. And our job market was dry, it wasn't like you could go down the street and get another job doing the same thing - this was an industry wide failure.
Many commercial builders lost their asses when they decided to test the waters in residential (see Auchter) because they were late in the game and were left holding a bunch of empty spaces. So while Jax was a boon for quite a while, it also hit some very hard, because IMO our boom was mostly a paper chase and had very little to do with a physical boom of people. That's why I think development is happening sooner in other places - we built out for nothing and we're still playing catchup, but there are a few things happening now.
I just hope the credit markets don't relax like they did in '05-'06, and people can keep their senses so we don't repeat the past.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything. Self-defeat works every time.
Meanwhile - 17 hotels adjacent to the airport, with the majority of them being built in the last few years. And no, those people aren't all flying out of JIA at 7AM.
Or maybe it's just that people don't think that building 30 hotels without a demonstrated demand is a good strategy for improving Downtown. I highly doubt that hotels are what revived downtown OKC compared to other factors.
I haven't been to Oklahoma City and don't know much about it, but the impression I get is that its downtown is in better shape than ours is, and it's more of a regional hub as it's by far the biggest city for hundreds of miles around it. I can't imagine that Tulsa, for instance, has 30 hotels in its downtown. Those things would probably contribute to a demand for more downtown hotels in OKC.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything. Self-defeat works every time.
I just think the "build it and they will come" mentality never works. Hotels (and total number of hotel rooms) should correlate to the health of downtown (and the wider city). Develop downtown and hotels will be built. As it is, there is close to nothing downtown. If Jax is experiencing a shortage of available hotel rooms downtown, then I would agree we need more. If not, I would say we need to do more to make downtown attractive to visitors.
Quote from: Adam White on March 09, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything. Self-defeat works every time.
I just think the "build it and they will come" mentality never works. Hotels (and total number of hotel rooms) should correlate to the health of downtown (and the wider city). Develop downtown and hotels will be built. As it is, there is close to nothing downtown. If Jax is experiencing a shortage of available hotel rooms downtown, then I would agree we need more. If not, I would say we need to do more to make downtown attractive to visitors.
They are already coming though. They are just 'coming' someplace else. Sitting around and waiting for something to happen isn't the answer. If doing nothing worked downtown Jax would be thriving. Attractions aren't going to locate downtown if there aren't people there. People WILL go where the hotels are because...well...that is where the bed is. No one is pulling off on Pecan Park road and sleeping in their car. They are going to where the hotel is.
The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town. Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them. That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town. Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them. That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.
I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 09, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything. Self-defeat works every time.
I just think the "build it and they will come" mentality never works. Hotels (and total number of hotel rooms) should correlate to the health of downtown (and the wider city). Develop downtown and hotels will be built. As it is, there is close to nothing downtown. If Jax is experiencing a shortage of available hotel rooms downtown, then I would agree we need more. If not, I would say we need to do more to make downtown attractive to visitors.
They are already coming though. They are just 'coming' someplace else. Sitting around and waiting for something to happen isn't the answer. If doing nothing worked downtown Jax would be thriving. Attractions aren't going to locate downtown if there aren't people there. People WILL go where the hotels are because...well...that is where the bed is. No one is pulling off on Pecan Park road and sleeping in their car. They are going to where the hotel is.
Yesterday you were arguing that we shouldn't have a convention center because it's a waste of resources, and now you're saying we should subsidize dozens of hotels.
People won't stay in a hotel Downtown vs. a hotel somewhere else unless they have a reason to be there. Jacksonville and the metro have a good (and growing) tourism industry, but by and large most of the attractions aren't downtown. If just building a bunch of hotels were the recipe for revitalization, every city would do that. They don't, as there are other uses of resources that would be much more impactful.
Quote from: remc86007 on March 09, 2017, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town. Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them. That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.
I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.
You're definitely right that we should do more to incentivize residential. The difference between that and hotels is that there's a demonstrated demand for residential - current housing is mostly full, and we're seeing new developments in and around Downtown like in Lavilla, Brooklyn, and the Southbank (and hopefully soon in San Marco) even without many incentives or coordination.
By way of comparison, hotel occupancy for all of Duval (including places like the Beaches which see a lot of the visitors) was 73.2 percent (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-05-23/story/jacksonville-climbs-top-five-tourism-figures-southeast) last year, and that was a big jump over 2015. We've only seen a handful of new hotels even proposed for Downtown. Maybe Downtown would benefit from some new hotels, but it's hardly the area of biggest need.
Kerry, how rooms had OKC added since 2000? Number of hotels is irrelevant. How many rooms?
For Jacksonville, The Adams Mark, now Hyatt, added 963 rooms by itself.
Quote from: remc86007 on March 09, 2017, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town. Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them. That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.
I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.
Thank you - and hotels are such easy low hanging fruit it is almost criminal that the City doesn't do this. They are being built and people will stay where they are built - they have to because that is where they are.
Quote from: Jim on March 09, 2017, 12:11:28 PM
Kerry, how rooms had OKC added since 2000? Number of hotels is irrelevant. How many rooms?
For Jacksonville, The Adams Mark, now Hyatt, added 963 rooms by itself.
I think this will answer some of your questions. It is a little outdated because there are 4 hotels recently announced that aren't listed. It has the hotel name, location, room count, etc... To answer question directly, it is about 4,000 additional rooms.
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=34292&p=659682#post659682
Keep in mind, prior to 1999, OKC had 1 downtown hotel.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 12:13:58 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on March 09, 2017, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town. Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them. That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.
I agree with you on that point. Residential and hotel development should be near the top of priorities for downtown.
Thank you - and hotels are such easy low hanging fruit it is almost criminal that the City doesn't do this. They are being built and people will stay where they are built - they have to because that is where they are.
I'm not seeing how this could be considered "low hanging fruit". It would require massive incentives and years of coordination to get 30 new hotels built.
So don't start with 30 - start with 5 and let it snow ball. OKC started with one, then two, then 5 and now almost 30, with developers still looking to build more. Jax has a lot offer and downtown has a pretty awesome setting - we need to be capitalizing. OKC did a lot of this with a crappy national economy, imagine what is going to happen with a resurging national economy.
Picture 5 new hotels along Riverside between 95 and the Acosta bridge. It would transform the core.
There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now. If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent. I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.
Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...
https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2
https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 12:20:13 PM
Quote from: Jim on March 09, 2017, 12:11:28 PM
Kerry, how rooms had OKC added since 2000? Number of hotels is irrelevant. How many rooms?
For Jacksonville, The Adams Mark, now Hyatt, added 963 rooms by itself.
I think this will answer some of your questions. It is a little outdated because there are 4 hotels recently announced that aren't listed. It has the hotel name, location, room count, etc... To answer question directly, it is about 4,000 additional rooms.
http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=34292&p=659682#post659682
Keep in mind, prior to 1999, OKC had 1 downtown hotel.
So, OKC has been catching up (and possibly surpassing at this point). Prior to 1999, Jax had several hotels downtown so we haven't had a dearth of rooms (except 2005).
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 01:23:18 PM
There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now. If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent. I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.
Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...
https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2
https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy
I am very aware of what OKC has been doing - it is one of the reasons I live there part-time. The convention center in OKC has almost nothing to do with their hotel development. The new Convention Center didn't even get approval until a few years ago and won't be built for 3 more years. In fact, the new CC site was selected to take advantage of the existing hotel stock. The hotel development has been going on since 2000.
There is tons the City can do, but like I said, it isn't just OKC seeing downtown hotel development - it is happening in almost every city. I was in downtown Memphis a few years ago and hotels were seemingly going up everywhere. I stayed in a Marriott that didn't even have parking. I had to park in a public garage 3 blocks away.
You know, just once I would like to come on Metro Jacksonville and get a response of something other than, "That won't work in Jax because of X". How about a little can-do spirit? How about, "Hey, other cities are doing it maybe we can/should also."
In the last 20 years or so, OKC has spent hundreds of millions on public improvements like gardens, parks, public facilities, etc. almost exclusively in DT. They enacted a BJP like program, three times over. When you invest that kind of public money, private money will follow, and it has.
Hotels are absolutely indicative of economic vitality, and they WILL come to DT if there is a good and or unique environment there. That hasn't happened in DT JAX yet, so the apartments and hotels go elsewhere.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 02:14:00 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 01:23:18 PM
There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now. If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent. I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.
Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...
https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2
https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy
I am very aware of what OKC has been doing - it is one of the reasons I live there part-time. The convention center in OKC has almost nothing to do with their hotel development. The new Convention Center didn't even get approval until a few years ago and won't be built for 3 more years. In fact, the new CC site was selected to take advantage of the existing hotel stock. The hotel development has been going on since 2000.
There is tons the City can do, but like I said, it isn't just OKC seeing downtown hotel development - it is happening in almost every city. I was in downtown Memphis a few years ago and hotels were seemingly going up everywhere. I stayed in a Marriott that didn't even have parking. I had to park in a public garage 3 blocks away.
OKC also has a current convention center they've pumped tens of millions into over the years. That is presumably a major factor in the growth of hotels over the years.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 02:20:28 PM
You know, just once I would like to come on Metro Jacksonville and get a response of something other than, "That won't work in Jax because of X". How about a little can-do spirit? How about, "Hey, other cities are doing it maybe we can/should also."
Because cities aren't actually doing what you seem to be suggesting. There's no way to just make developers build a bunch of hotels downtown. And giving them considerable incentives to build them doesn't seem like a wise use of resources compared to, say, incentivizing residential (since there's demonstrable demand for that), advancing public transit and connectivity, or rehabbing existing buildings. No one is criticizing the need to do more for DT Jax or do better with incentives.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 02:14:00 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 01:23:18 PM
There appear to be three or four active hotel proposals in the downtown area right now. If there's a market for them, they'll materialize. If not, they all won't. For now, the Courtyard by Marriott in the Laura Trio seems to be the most imminent. I'm not sure what COJ can do, outside of investing in public improvements (like convention center improvements, etc.) to strengthen the downtown market for such development.
Btw, speaking of OKC and hotels, you do realize that one of the many public improvements they've done is expand/modernize their convention center complex....which happens to be in the middle of downtown OKC. A good collection of them immediately surround that convention center complex...
https://goo.gl/maps/RWvg4FqxW8A2
https://goo.gl/maps/ZzRzseugSAy
I am very aware of what OKC has been doing - it is one of the reasons I live there part-time. The convention center in OKC has almost nothing to do with their hotel development. The new Convention Center didn't even get approval until a few years ago and won't be built for 3 more years. In fact, the new CC site was selected to take advantage of the existing hotel stock. The hotel development has been going on since 2000.
I was referring to about the existing one. It was expanded in the late 1990s/early 2000s. Two major hotels (Renaissance OKC and Courtyard by Marriott) that are connected to it, were built following the expansion.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 02:20:28 PM
You know, just once I would like to come on Metro Jacksonville and get a response of something other than, "That won't work in Jax because of X". How about a little can-do spirit? How about, "Hey, other cities are doing it maybe we can/should also."
This is the exact reason Jax should had an exhibition hall next door to the Hyatt, IMO. However, the mere mention of convention center makes people start questioning and coming up with reasons why Jax should not be in the business.....when it already is.
^^
It really isn't in the business. The small size of the current facility precludes major events. What the POCC does get is events that bring in mostly locals, which don't need Hotel rooms.
Adding an exhibition hall next door to Hyatt might do the trick, but it would probably need to be bigger than the POCC space (78k SF).
I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on March 09, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.
Because you can't make developers just build hotels. The city could offer them incentives, but that would have to be weighed against other uses of the money.
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on March 09, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.
If Jax had more nightlife downtown, there might be more hotels.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 09, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
^^
It really isn't in the business. The small size of the current facility precludes major events. What the POCC does get is events that bring in mostly locals, which don't need Hotel rooms.
Adding an exhibition hall next door to Hyatt might do the trick, but it would probably need to be bigger than the POCC space (78k SF).
Yes, there's enough space at the courthouse site to add a +100k SF exhibition hall.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 09, 2017, 05:06:09 PM
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on March 09, 2017, 05:01:37 PM
I'm just wondering why building hotels off of a major highway (I-95), which happens to be super close to a major metropolitan area (downtown Jax), seems to not be a good idea to you lot... I'm going to need a genuine explanation for this. Kinda seems like a no-brainer to me. $175+/night at the Hyatt means I'm not spending the night in downtown Jax and exploring the night life.
Because you can't make developers just build hotels. The city could offer them incentives, but that would have to be weighed against other uses of the money.
This. It's the same reason you just can't make Six Flags build a downtown amusement park or get Ben Carter to open a downtown version of the SJTC. If you don't have a market for them to make money off their investment, they aren't coming.
The most effective thing the city can do to entice private development is invest/design public projects that help build a critical mass of activity. So if you want that hotel, you may need to subsidize a Laura Trio, invest in your convention facilities, activate dead spaces along the river, etc.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 10:57:00 AM
There is demand for hotels - they are being built everywhere, except downtown and the downtown adjacent neighborhoods. The funny thing about hotels is their economic impact when clustered together. This is amplified when they are clustered together in a walkable area. 1000 different people every night looking for places to eat and ways to be entertained.
OKC's recovery is based on the growth of the energy sector.
OKC had a major boom in growth in the 1920's as the oil money flowed freely. It hung around until the 1970's and then the oil shocks almost killed them.
While OKC looks vibrant today, I can tell you how "dead" and lifeless downtown was in 1996-1997 as a I worked a probate in district court. Chesapeake Energy Arena was still only footings and the downtown revival plan was still a piece of paper.
They were successful because #1. They stuck to their plan (unlike Jax) #2. energy sector recovered due to fracking
COJ can't stick to a plan. COJ has no golden egg that provides the tax revenue outside of Shad Khan.
I am no stranger to Oklahoma. Mom was born there, relatives still live there, though many moved away in the 1970's when things got bad.
Had to make a trip to Regency today. On way back I drove to Everbank Field, down Bay Street, down Riverside and back on I95. I tried to think of what the differences there were from my first stay here in 1989-1994. Despite a long depression during that time some big changes have occurred and more are in works. If I tried to list them all it would take a whole page. I believe even Kerry would be impressed. If Laura Street Trio and Shipyards truly get off the ground, and some better transportation connectivity actually is done, Bay Street and Laura Street may just be the start. Somehow we need to build off the brewing and arts scene developing here.
Info. on OKC's MAPS initiative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Plan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Area_Projects_Plan)
MAPS, was a $350 million public works and redevelopment project in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma during the middle to late 1990s. In the 20 years since its inception "nearly $5 billion in economic impact can be attributed to the original MAPS program. This represents a nearly 10-fold return on the city's original investment.
The original MAPS program comprised nine projects that took 10 years to complete, and were chosen to appeal to a wide variety of city residents and also revitalize the city's downtown:
renovations to the Civic Center Music Hall including the 2,500 seat Thelma Gaylord Performing Arts Theater, the 290 seat Freedie Little Theater, the 100 seat City Space Theater, the 5,000 sf Minders Hall of Mirrors, and the 3,100 sf Joel Levine Rehearsal Hall.
renovations to the The Myriad (Now Cox Convention Center) including a 100,000 sf expansion of the convention space. The Cox center also includes a 15,000 seat multi-purpose arena that is home to the Oklahoma City Barons hockey team (the top farm team of the Edmonton Oilers).
renovations to the Oklahoma State Fairgrounds
construction of the Chickasaw Bricktown Ballpark home of the Oklahoma City Dodgers, the Triple-A affiliate of the Los Angeles Dodgers Major League Baseball team. The park has seating for up to 13,066 fans and currently utilizes a seating capacity of 9,000 for Dodgers games.
construction of the 18,203 seat Ford Center (now called the Chesapeake Energy Arena), an indoor multipurpose sports arena. The arena was completed for several years before it became an important aspect of plans in 2006 through 2008 by local businessman Clay Bennett, who lead the purchase of the Seattle SuperSonics, and later moved the basketball team to Oklahoma City.[7] The NBA team is now called the Oklahoma City Thunder.
construction of the "Bricktown Canal" which provided a core investment to transform a former warehouse district into an entertainment district; with "recreation activities available in Bricktown are currently ‹2009› estimated to draw 2.9 million visits annually"[8]
construction of a riverfront and recreational dams on the North Canadian River (this section of the river has been renamed the Oklahoma River, its lower section is known as the Boathouse District, the headquarters for USA Canoe/Kayak and a training center for USRowing)
a new Library/learning Center, later called the Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library, a four-story main library to replace a facility that had been built in 1951
development of the Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys, a trolley-replica bus network
MAPS 3 is a $777 million program, approved by voters in 2009 with 54% of the vote (the same percentage as the Original MAPS.)[10] The one-cent sales tax initiative began in April 2010 and ends in December 2017. After a year of public meetings organized by Mayor Mick Cornett, there developed a consensus that a future MAPS program should focus on projects that improved the Quality of Life in Oklahoma City. Hundreds of citizens suggested projects to be considered; through a series of public meetings eight projects were eventually selected to be included in the MAPS 3 proposal.
New Downtown Convention Center
New Downtown Public Park - 70 acres, including festival areas
New Modern Streetcar/Transit system and an inter-modal transit hub
New Senior Health and Wellness Centers; multiple structures in various parts of the city designed to encourage healthy lifestyles and serve as a gathering place for active seniors
Improvements to the Oklahoma River including a whitewater training facility and various upgrades to the world-class rowing racecourse
Improvements to the Oklahoma State Fair Grounds including replacing public event buildings
Expansion of Trails system that interconnects the city's major parks for walking and biking
Expansion of neighborhood sidewalks to create a more walkable community
Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown: Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.
Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).
http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm
None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown: Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.
Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).
http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm
None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.
We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 09:36:11 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown: Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.
Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).
http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm
None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.
We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.
Consistent leadership is a big part of it. I think to go along with that is the makeup of City government. Jax has 19 Council Members while OKC only has 8. Credit and blame is real easy to assign in OKC which keeps Council Members from going off the rails.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 09:36:11 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown: Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.
Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).
http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm
None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.
We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.
Consistent leadership is a big part of it. I think to go along with that is the makeup of City government. Jax has 19 Council Members while OKC only has 8. Credit and blame is real easy to assign in OKC which keeps Council Members from going off the rails.
Continuity in the chief executive's office is another big fact. OKC has apparently had the same City Manager for over 16 years. Jacksonville has had 4 mayors in that amount of time, including a one-termer (Brown) and another who's in his first term now (Curry). Many (though certainly not all) of our mayors haven't done a great job building on what their predecessors did.
Now doubt Jaxleadership needs to get its act together. In OKC the watershed moment was in 1991 when OKC lost a bidding war with Indianapolis for a United Airlines Maintenance facility. That is when the City woke up and concluded that instead of putting millions of dollars into a third party and hope for spin-off development, the City could just use that money themselves to rebuild the City and eliminate the middle man.
Jax should keep that in mind while they are considering handing over however many millions to Khan.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 10:16:06 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 09:36:11 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 08:53:39 AM
Jacksonville had a similar public improvement program downtown: Times Union Center, arena, baseball grounds, new courthouse, downtown library, museum of modern art, north and southbank riverwalks.
Another thing OKC has done that would go along ways for downtown Jax is returning all the downtown streets to two-way and getting rid of the elevated freeway (see Hart ramps and Arlington Expressway).
http://okc.about.com/od/citygovernment/a/Project-180-Oklahoma-City.htm
None of this is outside the capabilities of Jax and Jax has a much better urban core to start from than OKC did when they got started.
We did get redevelopment projects started around that time (two actually, River City Renaissance and the Better Jacksonville Plan) and things are a lot better downtown than they were in the early 90s. But we weren't able to maintain the momentum leading up to the Great Recession, and we were hit extremely hard by it. As the original article says, we still haven't totally recovered even as there's been more momentum in Downtown and the urban core. Inconsistent leadership is also a big factor in our failure to capitalize on earlier successes.
Consistent leadership is a big part of it. I think to go along with that is the makeup of City government. Jax has 19 Council Members while OKC only has 8. Credit and blame is real easy to assign in OKC which keeps Council Members from going off the rails.
Continuity in the chief executive's office is another big fact. OKC has apparently had the same City Manager for over 16 years. Jacksonville has had 4 mayors in that amount of time, including a one-termer (Brown) and another who's in his first term now (Curry), who's in his 1st term. Most (though certainly not all) of our mayors haven't done a great job building on what their predecessors did.
The main thing in Jax is everyone keeps forgetting about the importance of scale. Jax has thrown just as much money into its downtown as any other place over the last 40 years. The main difference between an OKC, Chattanooga, Greenville, Baltimore, Indianapolis, Columbus, Charlotte, Orlando, etc. and Jax isn't the amount of public money spent. It's we have no clue of the importance of clustering our investments in a pedestrian scale setting to stimulate additional synergy between them. Instead of clumping them on top of each other, we spread them out too thin.
^ So True.
Energize a block and it spreads. That is why Laura/Adams/Forsythe corridor is so important and that Laura St. Trio where you already have the building stock and have invested in streetscaping.
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
Quote from: I-10east on March 10, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I remember coming home to visit in 2009, 2010, etc and being surprised at the number of businesses that closed down.
Quote from: I-10east on March 10, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
Comparing 2017 Jax to 2007 Jax isn't the right measuring stick. While the last 8 years haven't been great economically, other cities still continued to see pretty good improvements in their urban cores. Will Rogers once said, "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."
Quote from: Adam White on March 10, 2017, 01:41:30 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 10, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I remember coming home to visit in 2009, 2010, etc and being surprised at the number of businesses that closed down.
Like what business (small, large etc)? Not trying to bust your chops, just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 10, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
Comparing 2017 Jax to 2007 Jax isn't the right measuring stick. While the last 8 years haven't been great economically, other cities still continued to see pretty good improvements in their urban cores. Will Rogers once said, "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there."
I'm going by the entire city (like the article says) not just downtown. As for DT, the future projects aren't exactly nil. Each city have there own set of challenges, and quite a few major cities have actually lost big companies, sports teams etc etc during the recession til now (While Jax hasn't lost anything major). So I don't buy that 'everything is rosy outside of Jax' sentiment.
Quote from: I-10east on March 11, 2017, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Adam White on March 10, 2017, 01:41:30 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 10, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I remember coming home to visit in 2009, 2010, etc and being surprised at the number of businesses that closed down.
Like what business (small, large etc)? Not trying to bust your chops, just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
Well, I can remember a strip of shops across the street from Regency Square Mall - I can't remember what was there, but I think an electronics shop was one of the tenants.
Lots of empty spaces in strip malls. That sort of stuff. It was 9 years ago or so, so I can't really recall too many details I'm afraid!
^^^Yeah Regency going downhill (mainly because of crime) is no secret. That effect in no way is exclusive to Jax BTW. Many many malls around the country have seen better days.
Quote from: I-10east on March 11, 2017, 02:42:27 PM
^^^Yeah Regency going downhill (mainly because of crime) is no secret. That effect in no way is exclusive to Jax BTW. Many many malls around the country have seen better days.
I don't think this was anything to do with crime. A lot of businesses failed as a result of the global financial crisis. Jacksonville was no different in that respect.
^^^We'll agree to disagree.
Quote from: Adam White on March 11, 2017, 02:31:07 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 11, 2017, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Adam White on March 10, 2017, 01:41:30 PM
Quote from: I-10east on March 10, 2017, 12:01:43 PM
IMO, maybe outside of real estate which tends to be very fickle in Florida, Jax was very resilient throughout the recession. I don't see any notable losses here; what did we lose to earn such a low recovery rating? CSX laid off many people (which isn't good), but it's looking to be a more efficient streamlined company. We got Southeastern Grocers to come here. FNF and FNFIS have maintained throughout a horrible mortgage crisis.
I can think of more pluses added to the city before any takeaways throughout the recession. So bottomline, no Jax hasn't had any explosive growth, but it has been resilient, and slowly but surely moving forward.
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I remember coming home to visit in 2009, 2010, etc and being surprised at the number of businesses that closed down.
Like what business (small, large etc)? Not trying to bust your chops, just trying to figure out where you're coming from.
Well, I can remember a strip of shops across the street from Regency Square Mall - I can't remember what was there, but I think an electronics shop was one of the tenants.
Lots of empty spaces in strip malls. That sort of stuff. It was 9 years ago or so, so I can't really recall too many details I'm afraid!
The Regency region has been the victim of many aspects including the economy. But simple age and new shopping destinations have taken a far greater toll. The Avenues Mall in the 90s was one of the first major catalysts to Regency's downfall. Then the St John's Town Center and, to a lessor extent, River City Marketplace came in, took dollars away and sealed Regency's fate. They had stores Regency never had and were new and hip.
Regency's regional reach and $ per household have both shrunk quite steadily for nearly 30 years now.
Oh, and that electronics store was CompUSA which moved to St John's Town Center.
We lost jobs in more than just retail. We lost entire banks and literally thousands of jobs in finance, which are one of our major employers. We lost jobs at the port, and we're falling further behind our competitors. Real estate plummeted and hasn't fully recovered (this happened across the state, but other areas had a better recovery than we have, especially as tourism came back within a few years).
Like a lot of these lists, I wouldn't be surprised if consolidation were a factor in skewing our numbers. Low cost of living also makes Florida look worse than it really is (as they're looking at things like median household income and median home prices). But either way, we'd be on the low end of recession recovery by most measures.