We discussed this briefly when word broke of the new RFP a week or two back, but it looks like the DIA will be formally voting tomorrow on issuing a new RFP for what basically amounts to development of the entire riverfront stretching from Berkman II east. Details below, courtesy the T-U. Curious what you guys think results of this. Is the RFP a mere formality necessary to allow Khan to develop Met Park? Who else possibly bites when a) Shipyards remediation cost remains unknown, b) Hart Bridge ramp situation remains unknown, c) the legality of development at Met Park hasn't been vetted. Does Khan even want the entire riverfront?
QuoteCity will seek proposals for bringing development to Met Park
The city of Jacksonville will combine Metropolitan Park and The Shipyards into a huge chunk of valuable riverfront that master developers can take a shot at winning the right to shape.
The Downtown Investment Authority is scheduled to vote Wednesday on authorizing staff to issue requests for proposals.
It would be the city's first step toward opening Metropolitan Park to full-bore development. However, the city still must get the National Park Service's blessing for converting the park into something other than an outdoor recreational area.
Mayor Lenny Curry and Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan have been in serious talks about Met Park. It is located directly across Gator Bowl Boulevard from Daily's Place, the new amphitheater and indoor "flex field" being built in a partnership between the city and Khan.
Khan has said he is interested in continuing that development toward the river.
In 2015, the Downtown Investment Authority selected Iguana Investments LLC, which is controlled by Khan, as the top choice for developing The Shipyards, which past developers tried and failed to get off the ground. The city never finalized negotiations with Iguana Investments.
The Downtown Investment Authority board will vote Wednesday on terminating the selection of Iguana Investments for The Shipyards. Along with that termination, the board will add Met Park to the Shipyards and open a new round of applications from developers.
The Shipyards covers 46 acres when counting both uplands and river-submerged property. About 30 acres of the Shipyards is on land. Met Park is roughly 27 acres. Curry has touted it as a transformational area for downtown.
While the combined properties bring a big chunk of riverfront into play, both properties have challenges for development.
A $1.7 million federal grant awarded in the early 1980s for Metropolitan Park requires the park to be used for public, outdoor recreation unless the National Park Service agrees to shift that requirement to other property that has comparable value.
The Shipyards suffers from environmental contamination from when the property was an actual shipyard. The city has $13 million set aside for cleaning up the contamination, but it's not clear that would be enough money to do the job.
In addition, Curry has said he wants to tear down a portion of the Hart Bridge Expressway that runs past Met Park and a portion of The Shipyards. He is asking state lawmakers to provide $50 million for demolition, construction of new ramps to the remaining elevated portion of the expressway system and to the Hart Bridge, and work on improvements to Gator Bowl Boulevard and Bay Street.
The Downtown Investment Authority will rank applicants for The Shipyards/Met Park venture based on experience and qualifications, redevelopment vision, and financial capacity.
The city will give developers at least 30 days to respond to the request for proposals. The Downtown Investment Authority will select a top-ranked choice and then enter into negotiations for an agreement.
Seems like an awful large tract of land for just one RFP. I think we would be better off keeping the two properties separate. Let Khan have Met Park since he seems to be more interested in that property, but keep the Shipyards in case the NPS is not willing to budge on the public waterfront space or let someone else develop it. I love Shad Khan and all that he has done for this city, but trying to develop both properties at once would be a lot of anyone and it would take years to do in phases. We need to strike while the iron is hot downtown, so let's keep them separate and see if we can't get another developer to bite on the Shipyards, or parcel it out like has been suggested on this site many times before.
^I agree, it's a lot of land for a single RFP.
Did see this quote from the Times-Union last month, which leads me to believe that Khan could potentially make a play for the entire strip:
QuoteMayor Lenny Curry is in talks with Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan about developing a long stretch of valuable, city-owned land that encompasses Metropolitan Park and The Shipyards, two tracts that haven't lived up to their potential for pumping activity into downtown.
"I will tell you everything is on the table and we are in discussions with Shad Khan and his organization about how to get the whole entire area developed, which could include some new use for Met Park," Curry said.
Seems like a similar situation to the last time the Shipyards was put up for bid, when the RFP was written with Khan's project in mind. The difference is that it's now apparently Metro Park rather than the Shipyards proper that's targeted for development, with the Shipyards replacing Metro Park as park space.
Nothing will ever happen at Metro Park without a land swap (if anything happens there at all). However, the better state of Metro Park for development compared to the Shipyards may mean we'll see some additional interesting bids.
Seems a little draconian, no? Being at the mercy of an ill-advised $1.4 million grant that was made 35 years ago? I understand the intent, but things can change a lot over the decades. If it was me, I'd petition hard for obsolescence before being bound to an acreage swap. Don't get me wrong, I'd still want an urban park as part of the Shipyards, but I also wouldn't want to keep playing hot potato every few decades when land use patterns or economic realities shift.
"Khan's not buying, he's selling" ooops, I mean Potter.
https://www.youtube.com/v/OQEWVDZme4A?t=1m15s
Quote from: KenFSU on December 13, 2016, 11:48:08 PM
Seems a little draconian, no? Being at the mercy of an ill-advised $1.4 million grant that was made 35 years ago? I understand the intent, but things can change a lot over the decades. If it was me, I'd petition hard for obsolescence before being bound to an acreage swap. Don't get me wrong, I'd still want an urban park as part of the Shipyards, but I also wouldn't want to keep playing hot potato every few decades when land use patterns or economic realities shift.
NPS has no incentive to go along with any plan that doesn't involve a land swap, and they control Metro Park. One of the reasons the amphitheater plan of the 1990s failed was because they didn't want to accept the city's exchange out in the county (which was for a lot more land than Metro Park proper). I think it would be better to have (more) land out saved farther out and develop Metro Park, but such negotiations are complicated.
Yeah, it is a shame all these strings are attached to Met Park when the city only got $1.7mm in the first place. Albeit that was a lot more money in the 80's than it is now.
This looks like a mere formality to me. Khan will be the only bidder or the only legit one, and he will be awarded the winner.
It will be interesting to see how he proposes to fill all that land and what he is expecting from the city. AT this point we know a Hotel is involved. I can't imagine it would be less than 200 rooms to be worthwhile. That is a significant addition to a tepid market.
Where is the RFP posted? Any place outside of Jacksonville? New York Times, Chicago Tribune, Miami Herald? Are they truly reaching out to all potential developers or is this a case of trying to keep it local? If your job is to put this RFP in front of as many interested partners as possible and you get one meaningful proposal, did you fail?
DIA signed off on the new RFP this afternoon.
Bidding will be open from Jan 4th to March 20th.
Sounds like proposals will need to include enough public space to offset the closure of Metro Park.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/12/14/the-shipyards-met-park-redevelopment-plans-finally.html
Great news, lets hope for some awesome proposals that actually get done.
So I guess we won't know Shad's plans until at least March now? With 18 months of negotiations afterwards?
Better than 10yrs I guess
Quote from: vicupstate on December 15, 2016, 05:12:52 AM
So I guess we won't know Shad's plans until at least March now? With 18 months of negotiations afterwards?
We knew his original plans for the Shipyards before the last RFP went out. It will likely be announced during the State of the Franchise presentation. That though is anything but a sure date. The last 3 starting with this year have been January 29th, May 13th, and February 17th. It's anyone's guess when they hold it this year. Likely after they hire a new coach.
And I *highly* doubt the National Park Service is going to be any problem whatsoever on this project. The times, they are a-changing.
Build the Ark!
Does the RFP include the former Courthouse and City Hall?
Is a copy available online?
^No. It's combined Shipyards + Met Park.
RFP closes on Wednesday.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 03, 2017, 11:24:54 PM
RFP closes on Wednesday.
The Jags are holding their annual State of the Franchise presentation on Wednesday.
I wonder...
I thought the RFP closed on march 20?
^3/8
http://www2.coj.net/rfp/rfp/rfpdefault.asp
Quote from: KenFSU on March 04, 2017, 04:35:53 PM
The Jags are holding their annual State of the Franchise presentation on Wednesday.
I wonder...
Hmmmmm . . . could be interesting.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-03-05/answer-coming-week-developers-interest-downtown-and-mayport-riverfront-land
The bid packet says preserving space that is open to the public with access to the St. Johns River and Hogan's Creek "is essential to the successful redevelopment of the site." The city envisions a blend of public parks, recreation areas and marinas along with residential and non-residential development.
The same day the bids are due from prospective developers, the Jaguars plan to have the team's annual State of the Franchise event. In the past, the Jaguars and Khan have used that event to highlight plans for off-the-field developments.In Shad We Trust, right? That's written just for finehoe and a few others, of course.
Big day.
Bids unsealed at 2 pm, and a potential detailing of Khan's bid at State of the Franchise?
Any guesses as to total number of bids?
I'm saying 2.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 10:05:13 AM
Big day.
Bids unsealed at 2 pm, and a potential detailing of Khan's bid at State of the Franchise?
Any guesses as to total number of bids?
I'm saying 2.
I'm guessing 3: Khan, another semi-serious bid that makes it clear how ahead of the game Khan is, and the Ark.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 10:05:13 AM
Big day.
Bids unsealed at 2 pm, and a potential detailing of Khan's bid at State of the Franchise?
Any guesses as to total number of bids?
I'm saying 2.
Totally depends if the Ark is in play again...
I'll go with 4.
I'm gonna be heartbroken if the ark isn't in play.
When is the state of the franchise?
Now...
http://www.jaguars.com/live/
Thus far could fairly be summarized as: we do better financially when the team doesn't suck.
Quote from: remc86007 on March 08, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
Thus far could fairly be summarized as: we do better financially when the team doesn't suck.
Which is quite different than the Ford family's take on the Lions: "It doesn't matter if we suck; you clowns keep buying it!"
The shipyards development proposed looks good.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/Ni4cpi0uUkd6U/giphy.gif)
Berkman 2 - "A slight bit of disrepair"?
Quote from: pierre on March 08, 2017, 12:05:54 PM
The shipyards development proposed looks good.
Yeah, the map looks great. I think it was wise not to show a ton of flashy concept art.
Here's a screenshot from my computer:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-zjP9t7L/0/L/Shipyards-L.jpg)
More images
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6aV5OzVUAQIPXe.jpg)
Quote from: remc86007 on March 08, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
Thus far could fairly be summarized as: we do better financially when the team doesn't suck.
My favorite was the chart showing that teams with more local revenue win more games.
In other news, people opening umbrellas leads to rain.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6aV5aqUwAEXmcq.jpg)
Looked promising. They want to build a hotel and convention space across from the Flex Field. They want to move a majority of the park space to around Hogan's Creek's mouth at the river which is also the most expensive space to re-mediate apparently. They also have retail along Bay St. most of the way down to the stadium and Office/Mixed use next to the hotel/convention space.
Here's my prediction - Shad's group will win the bid. This will obviously be a phased project with Phase 1 being the land-swap details and the hotel on the current Met Park property. That will probably be completed by this time next year.
The rest of it..... I see a long, long time coming that will be determined mostly by however the private market is behaving.
It looks less insane than the last proposal, which is good. Physical design looks pretty good so far - that foot bridge would be cool. I agree with NRW, this will take multiple phases and will depend on the market for most of the other uses besides hotel and expo space to get built. It will be interesting to see how this will all be paid for - it doesn't sound like they're going to repeat the nonsense from last time, where the city was going to pay the Jags to take our land, and then give them all the tax money it generates.
Honestly though, putting in a hotel and some convention space at Met Park sets us up for a Draft maybe and I think is the foundation of another Super Bowl here in a decade. But moving the park space and getting the parks done will be key to seeing development from private investors down the line. I have heard rumors of JEA's new HQ ending up as part of that mixed use situation near the stadium though.
Khan said the team would bid to host the 2019 draft. My guess is the plan is to have part of this (mainly the hotel and some greenspace) done by then.
If the Jags/city is bidding for the 2019 draft then the hotel project needs to start soon.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on March 08, 2017, 12:38:57 PM
If the city is bidding for the 2019 draft then the hotel project needs to start soon.
I'm willing to be that most of the pre-construction work is already done and I wouldn't be surprised if it's released for bid within weeks of getting approval by the city.
Also, the NFL owners meeting is in Phoenix at the end of the month. I suspect we will hear about the prospects of hosting the draft around the 29th.
I'd be surprised it COJ secures enough money from FDOT in time to demolish the Hart ramps and finish replacing it with a ground level boulevard by 2019. It's already March 2017. You'd be struggling to meet that deadline, even if funds were already set aside and construction was imminent.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be surprised it COJ secures enough money from FDOT in time to demolish the Hart ramps and finish replacing it with a ground level boulevard by 2019. It's already March 2017. You'd be struggling to meet that deadline, even if funds were already set aside and construction was imminent.
Go back to the renderings.... One section was bike/ped the other was vehicles, but both were on the elevated portion. The only difference is that it shrinks from 4 lanes to 2.
Honestly, the convention space near the stadium is also something they want for the media and the surrounding events. The 2020 Draft may be more realistic with all the hoops to jump through. The big issue about Jax was hotel rooms and not enough to do for the 2005 Super Bowl. This is putting the infrastructure in place to eventually host another Super Bowl in a decade...after I am guessing another considerable stadium upgrade like what was seen in Miami.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 08, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be surprised it COJ secures enough money from FDOT in time to demolish the Hart ramps and finish replacing it with a ground level boulevard by 2019. It's already March 2017. You'd be struggling to meet that deadline, even if funds were already set aside and construction was imminent.
Go back to the renderings.... One section was bike/ped the other was vehicles, but both were on the elevated portion. The only difference is that it shrinks from 4 lanes to 2.
The rendering is the same one Mayor Curry showed a few months back. Demolishing the ramp between the Hart Bridge and A. Philip Randolph Boulevard. The conversion of the elevated portion around Maxwell House was also in Curry's plan. They need approval and money from FDOT to make it happen.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 12:49:34 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 08, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be surprised it COJ secures enough money from FDOT in time to demolish the Hart ramps and finish replacing it with a ground level boulevard by 2019. It's already March 2017. You'd be struggling to meet that deadline, even if funds were already set aside and construction was imminent.
Go back to the renderings.... One section was bike/ped the other was vehicles, but both were on the elevated portion. The only difference is that it shrinks from 4 lanes to 2.
The rendering is the same one Mayor Curry showed a few months back. Demolishing the ramp between the Hart Bridge and A. Philip Randolph Boulevard. The conversion of the elevated portion around Maxwell House was also in Curry's plan. They need approval and money from FDOT to make it happen.
Get ready Duval delegation. Lake, do you like keeping the overpasses there or would it be wiser just to knock those down too? I have mixed feelings.
I'm mixed. It's an existing structure, so if you can use it for something different and save money instead of complete demo, why not? However, the planning is in a vacuum. How does it fit within the overall citywide bicycle network, are there any plans to do anything with the Cathedral District and what role does mass transit (if any) play in this? JTA's been talking about their Skyway plans for over a year now, which include extending it to EverBank Field. They even have AVs over at IAW this afternoon. However, no of that appears to have been seriously considered in the proposed concept.
Here's Curry's rendering from December:
Quote from: thelakelander on December 01, 2016, 06:20:15 PM
(http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg)
Click on the link and you can get a much larger image:
http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg
Bidding for the 2020 NFL Draft makes sense but I think some people associated with the league believe that LA will be awarded the draft in 2020. The Inglewood site is going to be the future home of the NFL Network offices with the stadium opening for the 2019 season.
The NFL may decide to punt the draft until after they host the Super Bowl in 2021 but that could depend on if they are on schedule with construction not just stadium but with the mixed-use projects that will surround the area.
From looking at the renderings, it does seem preferable but not necessary for the Hart Expressway demolition to have occurred before they can build the hotel/meeting space. It seems like there is green space and a large set back in the renderings at least.
The viaduct would have to be removed prior to the ped bridge connection or construction of the mixed-use entertainment section.
Did anyone else watching that meeting get the idea that the Jaguars are starting to subtly suggest they want a new stadium ?
New stadium? Hell no; not one hint at all. What could you possibly be talking about, Dapperdan? What part of the presentation? Who was the speaker?
As for the Hart: There's going to be action on that thing coming down, and it's not going to be years down the road.
Incredibly impressive presentation by the Jaguars. Shad Khan just keeps making tracks, and seriously improving our downtown.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 08, 2017, 01:23:58 PM
Did anyone else watching that meeting get the idea that the Jaguars are starting to subtly suggest they want a new stadium ?
I would say more likely it would be major renovations similar to what the Dolphins completed prior to this past season.
A roof similar to what they added in Miami. And new seats to all of the non-club areas.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
New stadium? Hell no; not one hint at all. What could you possibly be talking about, Dapperdan? What part of the presentation? Who was the speaker?
As for the Hart: There's going to be action on that thing coming down, and it's not going to be years down the road.
Incredibly impressive presentation by the Jaguars. Shad Khan just keeps making tracks, and seriously improving our downtown.
Regarding the Hart, let's just say the funding can be found and secured in 12 months (Knowing FDOT, this would be a miracle). Everything else aside, you'd still be looking at probably two years of construction. So that puts completion, closer to 2020, at the earliest.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 08, 2017, 01:23:58 PM
Did anyone else watching that meeting get the idea that the Jaguars are starting to subtly suggest they want a new stadium ?
Like I said, they won't want a new stadium but they will want something like what occurred in Miami at Hard Rock Stadium by taking out seats, installing even more premium seats, and installing some sort of roof-like/canopy structure over the stands to enhance the gameday experience (which is probably the #1 excuse for not going to games other than W-L record). The stadiums in the 1990's-Early 2000s have held up very well in comparison to their predecessors. This era from 1995-2003 saw the most stadiums built. It is shocking that FedEx Field is being replaced by the Redskins though. Tampa will be dealing with it around the same time as the Bucs will want something similar.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
New stadium? Hell no; not one hint at all. What could you possibly be talking about, Dapperdan? What part of the presentation? Who was the speaker?
As for the Hart: There's going to be action on that thing coming down, and it's not going to be years down the road.
Incredibly impressive presentation by the Jaguars. Shad Khan just keeps making tracks, and seriously improving our downtown.
It was Mark Lamping. Just as clear as day he showed a graph that showed all the teams that have built a stadium since the Jaguars built theirs. It was 21. He blamed the age of our stadium to low ticket growth. Apparently you weren't watching that part.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 08, 2017, 01:49:46 PM
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
New stadium? Hell no; not one hint at all. What could you possibly be talking about, Dapperdan? What part of the presentation? Who was the speaker?
As for the Hart: There's going to be action on that thing coming down, and it's not going to be years down the road.
Incredibly impressive presentation by the Jaguars. Shad Khan just keeps making tracks, and seriously improving our downtown.
It was Mark Lamping. Just as clear as day he showed a graph that showed all the teams that have built a stadium since the Jaguars built theirs. It was 21. He blamed the age of our stadium to low ticket growth. Apparently you weren't watching that part.
I think it was also more about renovations and upgrades. But who really knows. I would guess another 50 million in soon to be requests for the stadium would bump us into the 300 million range of that category included in the presentation.
Big fan of Khan, but not gonna lie, for the amount of runway the Jags had to put together a master development proposal, this kind of feels like a minimum viable product. Rightly or wrongly, it almost feels like they slapped it together with the expectation that no one else would bid. The USS Adams isn't even in the same place in all of the renders.
A few thoughts and general comments:
1) Lamping wants to break ground by January 2018.
2) The expo space was positioned as a Phase II of the spa/hotel, not an immediate build.
3) A little crazy that much of the proposed development is predicated on a highway demolition project that isn't even in the FDOT's current five-year plan.
4) I know these renders are more placeholders than concepts of final design, but it feels like there's a lot of wasted space, both horizontal and vertically, particularly with the entertainment zone, which feels very suburban strip mall to me.
(https://snag.gy/oBltyR.jpg)
5) That's a lot of slips. You've got to think that the Jags see this these as a new revenue stream they can get a cut of.
(https://snag.gy/G2D4Yf.jpg)
6) Most of all, I truly dislike what we saw of the park. We already screwed it up once with Met Park. If we're investing 27 acres of prime riverfront property into Jacksonville's signature park, it can't be an empty field of grass with traffic winding through it. I'd hope that the new park would be more feature and landscape rich.
(https://snag.gy/2gXAaF.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/TMZwC0.jpg)
7) Also, political pandering is nice, but let's not name this new park "Veterans Park." We all love veterans - there's zero question about that - but how about something more inclusive, less somber, and less politically sensitive in the event that we ever want to leverage commercial opportunities for the park or relocate it again in 20 years. How about Jacksonville Park? Or Unity Park? Or Riverfront Park?
Sorry, maybe I'm just being uncharacteristically negative, but the tone of the conference kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's the type of presentation that lands much better when you field a winning team, not go 3-13 and hold onto the worst coach in NFL history until the end of the season. The suggestions that Jacksonville wasn't keeping up with the Jones' in terms of stadium upgrades was a little eye-rolling too after the city has dumped close to a 100 million into Everbank in the last couple of years. And all the talk about the Jaguars and average ticket price fundamentally ignored the laws of supply and demand. Of course a market of 1,000,000 people competing for 64,000 tickets is going to have a lower average price than a market of 4,000,000 million competing for the same number of tickets. Everyone involved with the NFL is getting filthy rich. And the value of the Jaguars has increased from $700 million to $2 billion since Khan bought the time. After the run the Jags have had in recent years, it's just a bad time to be lecturing about how ticket prices need to go up.
The football team and facilities as a destination... See what the Packers are doing right now with the Titletown district under construction...
http://www.packers.com/lambeau-field/titletown-district.html
https://www.youtube.com/v/9TESJ2FYF58?ecver=1
Yeah, that slide came off, to me at least, as a cheap shot at city government. The $300m number seemed rather arbitrary to me. It's not like the city hasn't put up millions for the Jags in the past few years; not that I would be opposed to a major upgrade to the stadium if the Jags are putting up a large amount of the money.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 08, 2017, 01:49:46 PM
It was Mark Lamping. Just as clear as day he showed a graph that showed all the teams that have built a stadium since the Jaguars built theirs. It was 21. He blamed the age of our stadium to low ticket growth. Apparently you weren't watching that part.
Ticket PRICE growth. Around 50% actually for new stadiums, but obviously if you spend $1B on a stadium, the ticket prices will have to go up to compensate for the expenditure.
The message that I took from it is that they're happy with renovating it, but understand that it's going to be a continuous process and not just a $50M ask this year and then calling it quits. It's going to be incremental - as in tens of millions each and every year. That message was directed more at Curry and the Council, who are going to be in charge of passing these expenditures, as opposed to the fans who will be paying for the increased cost of tickets.
As far as naming the park; I suggest that the city sells the rights to it for 3-5 year terms.
Intuition park sounds cool to me.
In the weeds of things now but I would go with something like Navy Park especially if you have the USS Adams there and can maybe theme it around our naval history in back to exploration, the Spanish-American War, World War II, etc., with other smaller ships and other attractions, which is one of the true unique identifiers of the area.
Three firms put in bids.
Not sure if the ark is one of them.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 08, 2017, 01:49:46 PM
It was Mark Lamping. Just as clear as day he showed a graph that showed all the teams that have built a stadium since the Jaguars built theirs. It was 21. He blamed the age of our stadium to low ticket growth. Apparently you weren't watching that part.
Apparently I was doing a better job comprehending the presentation rather than looking for wild hints. They aren't looking for a new stadium and they aren't hinting at it either.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 02:42:39 PM
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 08, 2017, 01:49:46 PM
It was Mark Lamping. Just as clear as day he showed a graph that showed all the teams that have built a stadium since the Jaguars built theirs. It was 21. He blamed the age of our stadium to low ticket growth. Apparently you weren't watching that part.
Apparently I was doing a better job comprehending the presentation rather than looking for wild hints. They aren't looking for a new stadium and they aren't hinting at it either.
When Lamping was saying that part, you had your fingers in your ears and saying 'la, la, la, ' to yourself.
It wouldn't make any sense to teardown the existing stadium with all the improvements that have been made to it recently and then build a new one from scratch. The referenced part of the presentation was merely trying to get the point across to the city that they want major renovation money for the stadium going forward.
^What Lamping said was this, pardon my paraphrase:
We still have a great facility. But even though we've had five stadium enhancement projects in the last few years, we really need to double that number to get where we need to be.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 02:35:47 PM
Three firms put in bids.
Not sure if the ark is one of them.
LOL. I am looking forward to seeing them.
I do agree with your point about the park above concerning the traffic. I honestly am leaning towards the use of the overpasses as anything other than a park (maybe public transit with a raised station for their autonomous vehicles) makes no sense. There is not enough benefit for skipping the awful congested traffic (sarcasm) between the arena and Liberty St.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 02:09:20 PM
Sorry, maybe I'm just being uncharacteristically negative, but the tone of the conference kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's the type of presentation that lands much better when you field a winning team, not go 3-13 and hold onto the worst coach in NFL history until the end of the season. The suggestions that Jacksonville wasn't keeping up with the Jones' in terms of stadium upgrades was a little eye-rolling too after the city has dumped close to a 100 million into Everbank in the last couple of years. And all the talk about the Jaguars and average ticket price fundamentally ignored the laws of supply and demand. Of course a market of 1,000,000 people competing for 64,000 tickets is going to have a lower average price than a market of 4,000,000 million competing for the same number of tickets. Everyone involved with the NFL is getting filthy rich. And the value of the Jaguars has increased from $700 million to $2 billion since Khan bought the time. After the run the Jags have had in recent years, it's just a bad time to be lecturing about how ticket prices need to go up.
Well, you've certainly earned some dap from me and I do value your take. But when you've got the envious (vicupstate et al) and those that hear wild hints and insist on the accuracy of mistaken takes -- that is the state of play and Lamping knows that minority is out there and they do a lot of yapping.
I give Lamping credit for keeping it real in these presentations. The fact of the matter is they've been losing for years on the field, and the local fans have continued to buy tickets -- contrary to national perceptions. Nationally, more than a few folks are STILL looking for this franchise to fail. The Jaguars are operating against that hard-to-change narrative so they can't afford for people around here (politicians --
that group was the primary target) to think they've done enough on the partnership angle.
No, they haven't. That's what Lamping is reiterating. The continuing evolution has to be embraced and, when embraced, will be of great benefit to both parties.
That's the way I took it. And they have the record to back up that take, IMHO.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 02:50:53 PM
^What Lamping said was this, pardon my paraphrase:
We still have a great facility. But even though we've had five stadium enhancement projects in the last few years, we really need to double that number to get where we need to be.
Basically, we will be asking for some sort of fan covering to enhance the gameday experience soon like most new stadiums and reduced overall seating/more premium seats.
Think Miami's new renovation:
(https://cmgpbpcaneswatch.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/hard-rock-stadium-before-and-after-1000.jpg)
Meets the Seahawks' stadium due to their similar stadium shape:
(http://www.umei.com/lanyards/ly405hd/im/seahawks-stadium-qwest-field.jpg)
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 02:35:47 PM
Three firms put in bids.
Not sure if the ark is one of them.
One small holding company in Texas, and another mid-sized developer in Austin.
Jags will win the bid hands down.
Which, in a sane world, proves how much the Jaguars *are* doing for our downtown. No one is beating down the door to even compete for development of The Shipyards, etc.
#InShadWeTrustNotVicUpstate
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 03:21:33 PM
Which, in a sane world, proves how much the Jaguars *are* doing for our downtown. No one is beating down the door to even compete for development of The Shipyards, etc.
#InShadWeTrustNotVicUpstate
^THIS!!!
They own a football team and can't even manage it well. They should leave urban development to urban developers, or sell the football team and become full-time developer.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 08, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be surprised it COJ secures enough money from FDOT in time to demolish the Hart ramps and finish replacing it with a ground level boulevard by 2019. It's already March 2017. You'd be struggling to meet that deadline, even if funds were already set aside and construction was imminent.
Go back to the renderings.... One section was bike/ped the other was vehicles, but both were on the elevated portion. The only difference is that it shrinks from 4 lanes to 2.
incorrect. The part near the stadium is proposed to be torn down. FDOT has offered to do a $250k study to determine feasibility. If feasible, its still likely 3-5 years away at best.
As for stadium modifications, note that the Miami renovations were funded ENTIRELY by the Dolphins owner!
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/styles/slideshow__640x360/public/field/image/1533665_web1_JAX_030917_MetParkShipyardsDeveolpment.jpg?itok=mrFTkFN2)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-03-06/shad-khan-s-shipyards-plan-one-three-submitted-city
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 08, 2017, 03:41:09 PM
As for stadium modifications, note that the Miami renovations were funded ENTIRELY by the Dolphins owner!
I believe the Dolphins own the stadium down there.
The Jaguars do not.
Not to mention [1] the stadium is in Miami Gardens. Few of y'all have probably ever stayed, or will stay, in Miami Gardens; nondescript would be kind; [2] need we really mention the market differentials between the Gold Coast and the First Coast?
Another year of shiny Shipyards renderings that go nowhere while the Jags keep passive aggressively using London as a threat to get the latest in stadium upgrades at taxpayer expense.
Intuition will lose its hard earned parking lot! If they are moving the veterans memorial area, I hope that sea of parking between the stadium and all the other amenities can be better developed. A big garage plus some mixed use would really be solid for lot J.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 08, 2017, 03:37:18 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 08, 2017, 12:45:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be surprised it COJ secures enough money from FDOT in time to demolish the Hart ramps and finish replacing it with a ground level boulevard by 2019. It's already March 2017. You'd be struggling to meet that deadline, even if funds were already set aside and construction was imminent.
Go back to the renderings.... One section was bike/ped the other was vehicles, but both were on the elevated portion. The only difference is that it shrinks from 4 lanes to 2.
incorrect. The part near the stadium is proposed to be torn down. FDOT has offered to do a $250k study to determine feasibility. If feasible, its still likely 3-5 years away at best.
Gotcha. This was the rendering that I was referring to, and you're right. It's well before the stadium.
(http://prod.images.jaguars.clubs.nflcdn.com/image-web/NFL/CDA/data/deployed/prod/JAGUARS/assets/images/imported/JAX/photos/clubimages/2017/03-March/tempShipyardsVeteransPark--nfl_mezz_1280_1024.jpg)
Quote from: pierre on March 08, 2017, 04:19:57 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 08, 2017, 03:41:09 PM
As for stadium modifications, note that the Miami renovations were funded ENTIRELY by the Dolphins owner!
I believe the Dolphins own the stadium down there.
The Jaguars do not.
This is true. The Dolphins tried to get the state and city to fund it but got denied after the Marlins fiasco.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 03:21:33 PM
Which, in a sane world, proves how much the Jaguars *are* doing for our downtown. No one is beating down the door to even compete for development of The Shipyards, etc.
#InShadWeTrustNotVicUpstate
You realize Khan has a tremendous vested interest that the other two parties don't have, right?
Stephanie Brown has more information on one of the parties. Actually associated with the Killashee plans from before. She has several tweets about their intents and site plan.
I am sure she will have a story up soon on WOKV news website.
Her story
By Stephanie Brown
Jacksonville, FL — They aim to make Downtown Jacksonville a year-round destination, while also putting the city at large on the map.
Texas-based Presidium Group, LLC is one of three companies who have entered proposals to redevelop the Jacksonville Shipyards and adjacent Riverfront property. They're partnering with Ponte Vedra Beach's Killashee Investments, LLC on their concept "Sea Glass at the Shipyards".
GALLERY:Presidium Group's Shipyards proposal
Killashee's Mark Farrell designed the core of this concept years ago and considered putting it in the mix during the proposal process in 2015, but at the time he says he didn't have a partner. He's working with Presidium on a Town Center apartment project already, and he says when they found out about the Shipyards site, they were committed.
"They really like Jacksonville, they really like the waterfront, Downtown, the opportunity. They see the potential Jacksonville has, and so they wanted to throw their hat in the ring," Farrell tells WOKV.
Their proposal focuses first on boosting entertainment options that are available on a daily basis year-round- the USS Adams Museum, an Aquarium, a Fine Art Museum, and Sea Glass Tower. The Tower is a 1,000 foot structure that includes a two-level restaurant and observation deck.
"It would be the iconic structure that this City would need to finally get it on the map and become a top tier city," Farrell says.
The idea is to bring people Downtown consistently, as opposed to for big events only. Once the demand starts to build, Farrell says hotel, residential, and retail space will follow.
"It's like dominoes. The hardest part is getting it started, but once you get it started then it goes," he says.
The proposal also includes a Convention Center, food truck court, market, business incubator, and other features. Much of it was in Farrell's initial concept, but they've expanded it to fit the larger space the City is now seeking to redevelop.
Prior redevelopment efforts have focused solely on the Shipyards parcel. Iguana Investments Florida, LLC- on behalf of Jaguars owner Shad Khan- won the prior bid process, but negotiations on his development plan ultimately stalled out, and in December 2016, the Downtown Investment Authority voted to re-issue the request for proposals. This time, they were requesting developers for the 70 acre site that included the Shipyards and Met Park.
Khan has submitted a proposal once again. A third proposal was submitted by Wess Holdings, LLC. WOKV has reached out to see if they are willing to share bid details at this time. The proposals themselves will not be made public during this early vetting phase.
Farrell says they know they have stiff competition in Khan, but the developers are excited.
"They said, you know, if we don't shoot for the moon, why are we here. And I said, you know what, you're right," he says.
Presidium will offer to buy the property for $20 million, according to Farrell. He says many of the entertainment features already have partners lined up to help with funding, and they would seek standard arrangements for the residential and retail portions. They're requesting the City address the environmental concerns on the site, continue the Riverwalk, ensure utilities are brought on site, help with zoning, and beautify Bay Street. They're also pushing for the extension of the Skyway into the area, although Farrell says their bid will not depend on that.
Here's the site plan:
https://mobile.twitter.com/SBrownReports/status/839613696162861057/photo/1
Interesting site plan, I'd argue more interesting then what the Jags presented, but feasibility is going to be a major issue. At first glance, it appears to include Met Park development without an in-kind land swap, and it will also necessitate a complete remediation of the Shipyards site, rather than partial.
I also wonder who foots the bill for the convention center and aquarium.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 07:22:35 PM
Here's the site plan:
https://mobile.twitter.com/SBrownReports/status/839613696162861057/photo/1
Interesting site plan, I'd argue more interesting then what the Jags presented, but feasibility is going to be a major issue. At first glance, it appears to include Met Park development without an in-kind land swap, and it will also necessitate a complete remediation of the Shipyards site, rather than partial.
I also wonder who foots the bill for the convention center and aquarium.
Where does Mooneyhan Studios play into it?
Is it to scale? That convention center looks smaller than the current Prime Osborn.
Also, sure sounds like Khan wants to target Four Seasons for the stadium hotel.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2017, 07:32:09 PM
Is it to scale? That convention center looks smaller than the current Prime Osborn.
Assuming it's to scale, and using Everbank's field as a measure of said scale, we're looking at roughly 50,000 sf of exhibition space at that convention center. Roughly twenty percent of what the PO already offers. Don't spend it all in one place.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 08, 2017, 04:45:32 PM
You realize Khan has a tremendous vested interest that the other two parties don't have, right?
I recognize that he has invested many millions of *his* dollars in downtown Jacksonville, that's what I recognize. He has skin in the game, Vic, skin in the game. Read up on Nassim Nicholas Taleb.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 07:56:40 PM
Also, sure sounds like Khan wants to target Four Seasons for the stadium hotel.
Makes some sense with his connection with Four Seasons. He'll probably make the penthouse suite his local residence.
That Sea Glass project, nothing but pie in the sky, something eventually will happen at the shipyards.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 07:56:40 PM
Also, sure sounds like Khan wants to target Four Seasons for the stadium hotel.
I know he owns the Toronto Four Seasons but where did you hear this?
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 08, 2017, 08:19:26 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 08, 2017, 04:45:32 PM
You realize Khan has a tremendous vested interest that the other two parties don't have, right?
I recognize that he has invested many millions of *his* dollars in downtown Jacksonville, that's what I recognize. He has skin in the game, Vic, skin in the game. Read up on Nassim Nicholas Taleb.
Let's see how much 'skin' he is putting into THIS proposal. That will be the proof in the pudding.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 08, 2017, 08:54:25 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on March 08, 2017, 07:56:40 PM
Also, sure sounds like Khan wants to target Four Seasons for the stadium hotel.
I know he owns the Toronto Four Seasons but where did you hear this?
It is in the TU story.
After going to London game this past season, this is what I believe the city & Jags are envisioning for the stadium district.
(http://i.imgur.com/kTkKFXi.jpg)
Hotel next to the stadium
(http://i.imgur.com/KJKCMjv.jpg)
View from the hotel
Quote from: vicupstate on March 08, 2017, 08:55:32 PM
Let's see how much 'skin' he is putting into THIS proposal. That will be the proof in the pudding.
Yeah, forget those prior millions. That was just to see if he was kinda-sorta serious, amirite?
Don't worry, Vic, I'm sure he'll have skin in the game on this effort, too. Not that y'all will give him some dap for his troubles.
Putting a hotel or 3 adjacent to a stadium isn't exactly a new thing. Shad financing one at Met Park would be another of those 'revenue streams' that Lamping is prioritizing. That's why I have no doubt that it will happen sooner rather than later.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 09, 2017, 12:33:48 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 08, 2017, 08:55:32 PM
Let's see how much 'skin' he is putting into THIS proposal. That will be the proof in the pudding.
Yeah, forget those prior millions. That was just to see if he was kinda-sorta serious, amirite?
Don't worry, Vic, I'm sure he'll have skin in the game on this effort, too. Not that y'all will give him some dap for his troubles.
I remember the millions of TAXPAYER dollars that have gone into gold-plating the stadium. That is why I am skeptical that his 'skin' in this new project will exceed significantly the tax dollars 'invested'.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 09, 2017, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 09, 2017, 12:33:48 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 08, 2017, 08:55:32 PM
Let's see how much 'skin' he is putting into THIS proposal. That will be the proof in the pudding.
Yeah, forget those prior millions. That was just to see if he was kinda-sorta serious, amirite?
Don't worry, Vic, I'm sure he'll have skin in the game on this effort, too. Not that y'all will give him some dap for his troubles.
I remember the millions of TAXPAYER dollars that have gone into gold-plating the stadium. That is why I am skeptical that his 'skin' in this new project will exceed significantly the tax dollars 'invested'.
It's been split nearly 50/50 if I'm not mistaken.
Does anyone have a higher resolution picture of the full plan from Shad Khan and Co.?
I still don't get the point of the stubs of the raised roadways. They won't serve a purpose.
I have serious doubts about any of this. The City should just take the millions they are going to pour into this and help fund smaller in-fill developers that will actually build something.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-03-09/third-bid-shipyards-jacksonville-jobs-factory
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 09, 2017, 01:19:02 PM
Does anyone have a higher resolution picture of the full plan from Shad Khan and Co.?
Click on the link for a larger image:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-cT6d5vR/0/X3/shipyards_master_plan_03-08-17_0-X3.jpg)
http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-cT6d5vR/X3
Also, a soil contamination map:
(http://media.news4jax.com/photo/2015/11/06/Arsenic-Shipyards-jpg_307509_ver1.0_640_360.jpg)
Btw, this plan is definitely more realistic to the actual market conditions. Nevertheless, it's pretty low density. Is this a Southside Boulevard-style strip mall I'm looking at?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-q45Gwgp/0/L/shipyards_bay_street_entertainment__1_-L.jpg)
I don't see a huge parking lot so no
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Btw, this plan is definitely more realistic to the actual market conditions. Nevertheless, it's pretty low density. Is this a Southside Boulevard-style strip mall I'm looking at?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-q45Gwgp/0/L/shipyards_bay_street_entertainment__1_-L.jpg)
It looks similar to what was put up in Brooklyn there with Burrito Gallery. Density wise, I wonder if it has something to do with the contamination?
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 05:02:08 PM
I have serious doubts about any of this. The City should just take the millions they are going to pour into this and help fund smaller in-fill developers that will actually build something.
I have serious doubts about the city
^There's a surface parking lot behind it in the site plan. It's green in the rendering. But yeah, the illustration resembles the outparcels at Brooklyn Station and St. Johns Town Center.
Has anyone even seen the other 2 proposals? I'd like to at least see them although we all know they're giving Khan the bid.
Quote from: martt12 on March 09, 2017, 11:21:17 PM
Has anyone even seen the other 2 proposals? I'd like to at least see them although we all know they're giving Khan the bid.
Just once I wish the City would tell him No. He has zero development experience and the City is just going to hand him the largest development opportunity in the history of Jax and millions of dollars to go with it. I guess owning a sports team is the new "I slept at a Holiday Inn Express".
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 09:13:52 AM
Quote from: martt12 on March 09, 2017, 11:21:17 PM
Has anyone even seen the other 2 proposals? I'd like to at least see them although we all know they're giving Khan the bid.
Just once I wish the City would tell him No. He has zero development experience and the City is just going to hand him the largest development opportunity in the history of Jax and millions of dollars to go with it. I guess owning a sports team is the new "I slept at a Holiday Inn Express".
The guy is a multi-billionaire self-made man. What the hell do you know about what is going on all around the world with his billions of dollars? I am sure he is just an idiot who can't do anything right. He never hires good people either. ::) Relax man. How many people or companies are in Jacksonville worth billions of dollars that have the capabilities Khan has? You can hit him for being ALL ABOUT the money and not about the city's best interest but you are a fool to go after the man due to some sort of weird perceived incompetence.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 09:13:52 AM
Quote from: martt12 on March 09, 2017, 11:21:17 PM
Has anyone even seen the other 2 proposals? I'd like to at least see them although we all know they're giving Khan the bid.
Just once I wish the City would tell him No. He has zero development experience and the City is just going to hand him the largest development opportunity in the history of Jax and millions of dollars to go with it. I guess owning a sports team is the new "I slept at a Holiday Inn Express".
The guy is a multi-billionaire self-made man. What the hell do you know about what is going on all around the world with his billions of dollars? I am sure he is just an idiot who can't do anything right. He never hires good people either. ::) Relax man. How many people or companies are in Jacksonville worth billions of dollars that have the capabilities Khan has? You can hit him for being ALL ABOUT the money and not about the city's best interest but you are a fool to go after the man due to some sort of weird perceived incompetence.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with Kerry - but just because you have a lot of money, doesn't mean you'll be good at everything you decide to try, especially if you have no experience. Certain people come to mind...
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 09:13:52 AM
Quote from: martt12 on March 09, 2017, 11:21:17 PM
Has anyone even seen the other 2 proposals? I'd like to at least see them although we all know they're giving Khan the bid.
Just once I wish the City would tell him No. He has zero development experience and the City is just going to hand him the largest development opportunity in the history of Jax and millions of dollars to go with it. I guess owning a sports team is the new "I slept at a Holiday Inn Express".
The guy is a multi-billionaire self-made man. What the hell do you know about what is going on all around the world with his billions of dollars? I am sure he is just an idiot who can't do anything right. He never hires good people either. ::) Relax man. How many people or companies are in Jacksonville worth billions of dollars that have the capabilities Khan has? You can hit him for being ALL ABOUT the money and not about the city's best interest but you are a fool to go after the man due to some sort of weird perceived incompetence.
Maybe we should just force Khan to build 30 hotels and Kerry will get behind him.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 09:38:08 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 10, 2017, 09:13:52 AM
Quote from: martt12 on March 09, 2017, 11:21:17 PM
Has anyone even seen the other 2 proposals? I'd like to at least see them although we all know they're giving Khan the bid.
Just once I wish the City would tell him No. He has zero development experience and the City is just going to hand him the largest development opportunity in the history of Jax and millions of dollars to go with it. I guess owning a sports team is the new "I slept at a Holiday Inn Express".
The guy is a multi-billionaire self-made man. What the hell do you know about what is going on all around the world with his billions of dollars? I am sure he is just an idiot who can't do anything right. He never hires good people either. ::) Relax man. How many people or companies are in Jacksonville worth billions of dollars that have the capabilities Khan has? You can hit him for being ALL ABOUT the money and not about the city's best interest but you are a fool to go after the man due to some sort of weird perceived incompetence.
Maybe we should just force Khan to build 30 hotels and Kerry will get behind him.
I made a similar joke and then decided to delete my post!
Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal.
[1]Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Is this a Southside Boulevard-style strip mall I'm looking at?
(((sigh))) Renderings, people, and preliminary renderings at that.
But it's probably too much to ask slaves of northeastern urban density desires to . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We have a long stretch of riverfront with beautiful vistas open for multiple uses and . . . pretty low density is a real concern?
Hell no.
[2]Kerry, Shad *does* have development experience. Elite-level experience in the form of Mark Lamping who was president of the St. Louis Cardinals from September 1, 1994 until March 31, 2008 and intimately involved in the conceptualization and planning for the Ballpark Village development credited with reinvigorating a section of downtown St. Louis. We can probably look forward to something like this here in Big Duval, but tailored to Northeast Florida:
http://www.mlb.com/stl/ballpark/ballpark_village/phase1/
[3]"Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal." Perhaps if some of y'all were the billionaire developer. But you aren't. So, it's probably time to start archiving some of these hot takes.
* * *
These are exciting times. #InShadWeTrust
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 10, 2017, 10:02:36 AM
[1]
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Is this a Southside Boulevard-style strip mall I'm looking at?
(((sigh))) Renderings, people, and preliminary renderings at that.
But it's probably too much to ask slaves of northeastern urban density desires to . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We have a long stretch of riverfront with beautiful vistas open for multiple uses and . . . pretty low density is a real concern?
Hell no.
[2]
Kerry, Shad *does* have development experience. Elite-level experience in the form of Mark Lamping who was president of the St. Louis Cardinals from September 1, 1994 until March 31, 2008 and intimately involved in the conceptualization and planning for the Ballpark Village development credited with reinvigorating a section of downtown St. Louis. We can probably look forward to something like this here in Big Duval, but tailored to Northeast Florida:
http://www.mlb.com/stl/ballpark/ballpark_village/phase1/
[3]
"Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal." Perhaps if some of y'all were the billionaire developer. But you aren't. So, it's probably time to start archiving some of these hot takes.
* * *
These are exciting times. #InShadWeTrust
[4] RattleGator earned his billions in property development, as evidenced by his insistence that no one who isn't a billionaire developer can understand, or have an opinion about, this stuff.
I'll hold my desire until I see all three of the proposals. With that said, Rattler brings up a good point about Lamping. The guy has a ton of experience in this. There's a reason Khan hired him. That side of the org has been stellar since Khan took over.
The on-field product on the other hand......
But, I've seen very little of the other proposals.
Quote from: Adam White on March 10, 2017, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 10, 2017, 10:02:36 AM
[1]
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Is this a Southside Boulevard-style strip mall I'm looking at?
(((sigh))) Renderings, people, and preliminary renderings at that.
But it's probably too much to ask slaves of northeastern urban density desires to . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We have a long stretch of riverfront with beautiful vistas open for multiple uses and . . . pretty low density is a real concern?
Hell no.
[2]
Kerry, Shad *does* have development experience. Elite-level experience in the form of Mark Lamping who was president of the St. Louis Cardinals from September 1, 1994 until March 31, 2008 and intimately involved in the conceptualization and planning for the Ballpark Village development credited with reinvigorating a section of downtown St. Louis. We can probably look forward to something like this here in Big Duval, but tailored to Northeast Florida:
http://www.mlb.com/stl/ballpark/ballpark_village/phase1/
[3]
"Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal." Perhaps if some of y'all were the billionaire developer. But you aren't. So, it's probably time to start archiving some of these hot takes.
* * *
These are exciting times. #InShadWeTrust
[4] RattleGator earned his billions in property development, as evidenced by his insistence that no one who isn't a billionaire developer can understand, or have an opinion about, this stuff.
Ha!
Low density is a concern. Columbus's Arena District, for instance, didn't become what it is with a bunch of one-story outdoor mall-style buildings. Compare and contrast.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-q45Gwgp/0/L/shipyards_bay_street_entertainment__1_-L.jpg)
vs.
(http://columbusdowntownapartments.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Columbus-ranked-high-for-millennials.jpg)
On the other hand, it's probably wise to shoot for achievable improvements rather than razzle dazzle that proves unrealistic. Most of the current proposal looks doable.
I don't think Kerry ever recommended providing incentives to open Hotels in DT, only that the lack of them was indicative of a weak DT economy, which it certainly is. Hotels have kickstarted urban renaissance in many cities and the continual addition of new beds is also a metric of vitality. Hotels have opened in urban areas in spades throughout the country and the dearth of such here is telling.
As far as Khan, I think there would be more interest in the RFP if he was not involved. Why put in the time and money into a bid if it is a forgone conclusion that he will get the nod.
That said, if his proposal is high caliber, and doesn't 'socialize the risk, privatize the profit' then I can embrace it. I DO AGREE with Adam White's comment that being smart in some things does not make that person an expert in other things.
Since the proposals have been submitted, shouldn't there be details included on what the city will be asked to do, as part of the RPF?
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 10:22:35 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 10, 2017, 10:07:42 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 10, 2017, 10:02:36 AM
[1]
Quote from: thelakelander on March 09, 2017, 06:30:05 PM
Is this a Southside Boulevard-style strip mall I'm looking at?
(((sigh))) Renderings, people, and preliminary renderings at that.
But it's probably too much to ask slaves of northeastern urban density desires to . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
We have a long stretch of riverfront with beautiful vistas open for multiple uses and . . . pretty low density is a real concern?
Hell no.
[2]
Kerry, Shad *does* have development experience. Elite-level experience in the form of Mark Lamping who was president of the St. Louis Cardinals from September 1, 1994 until March 31, 2008 and intimately involved in the conceptualization and planning for the Ballpark Village development credited with reinvigorating a section of downtown St. Louis. We can probably look forward to something like this here in Big Duval, but tailored to Northeast Florida:
http://www.mlb.com/stl/ballpark/ballpark_village/phase1/
[3]
"Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal." Perhaps if some of y'all were the billionaire developer. But you aren't. So, it's probably time to start archiving some of these hot takes.
* * *
These are exciting times. #InShadWeTrust
[4] RattleGator earned his billions in property development, as evidenced by his insistence that no one who isn't a billionaire developer can understand, or have an opinion about, this stuff.
Ha!
Low density is a concern. Columbus's Arena District, for instance, didn't become what it is with a bunch of one-story outdoor mall-style buildings. Compare and contrast.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/The-Shipyards-Renderings/i-q45Gwgp/0/L/shipyards_bay_street_entertainment__1_-L.jpg)
vs.
(http://columbusdowntownapartments.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Columbus-ranked-high-for-millennials.jpg)
On the other hand, it's probably wise to shoot for achievable improvements rather than razzle dazzle that proves unrealistic. Most of the current proposal looks doable.
Unfortunately what is shown in the Arena District is housing. As this is the area of the shipyards with the most contamination, housing will be difficult without major remediation. Thus low density entertainment. The far west part of plan does show housing. I would hope it would be similar to the arena district and be mid rise. It is also closest to DT employment area.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 10, 2017, 10:25:29 AM
I don't think Kerry ever recommended providing incentives to open Hotels in DT, only that the lack of them was indicative of a weak DT economy, which it certainly is. Hotels have kickstarted urban renaissance in many cities and the continual addition of new beds is also a metric of vitality. Hotels have opened in urban areas in spades throughout the country and the dearth of such here is telling.
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
Quote from: Adam White on March 09, 2017, 11:43:28 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 09, 2017, 11:05:40 AM
Reading the last few comments - maybe Jax just lacks a population who gives a crap about anything. Self-defeat works every time.
I just think the "build it and they will come" mentality never works. Hotels (and total number of hotel rooms) should correlate to the health of downtown (and the wider city). Develop downtown and hotels will be built. As it is, there is close to nothing downtown. If Jax is experiencing a shortage of available hotel rooms downtown, then I would agree we need more. If not, I would say we need to do more to make downtown attractive to visitors.
They are already coming though. They are just 'coming' someplace else. Sitting around and waiting for something to happen isn't the answer. If doing nothing worked downtown Jax would be thriving. Attractions aren't going to locate downtown if there aren't people there. People WILL go where the hotels are because...well...that is where the bed is. No one is pulling off on Pecan Park road and sleeping in their car. They are going to where the hotel is.
The City should actively be pursuing hotel development downtown, even at the expense of other parts of town. Attract the people and services will sprout up to serve and entertain them. That is how the economy works - even in suburbia.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 10, 2017, 10:25:29 AM
As far as Khan, I think there would be more interest in the RFP if he was not involved. Why put in the time and money into a bid if it is a forgone conclusion that he will get the nod.
That said, if his proposal is high caliber, and doesn't 'socialize the risk, privatize the profit' then I can embrace it. I DO AGREE with Adam White's comment that being smart in some things does not make that person an expert in other things.
Since the proposals have been submitted, shouldn't there be details included on what the city will be asked to do, as part of the RPF?
I imagine an incentives package will be part of any deal that would be accepted here. But we can expect that there will be less "socialize the risk, privatize the profit" than last time this deal went to bid, as Sam Mousa was the one who shot down the last proposal, to his credit.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal.
I just want them to put in the hotel and move the park. I actually think a nice waterfront park with the USS Adams closer to the core could help the Berkman II and other development get off the ground. It will all be market forces from here. I do think it would be nice for the city to figure out a long term solution for the jail soon to also incentivize development in the Shipyards.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal.
I just want them to put in the hotel and move the park. I actually think a nice waterfront park with the USS Adams closer to the core could help the Berkman II and other development get off the ground. It will all be market forces from here. I do think it would be nice for the city to figure out a long term solution for the jail soon to also incentivize development in the Shipyards.
^what he said. And most likely as well. Except for the jail, which is a monstrosity that will be expensive to move.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 10:33:56 AM
I imagine an incentives package will be part of any deal that would be accepted here. But we can expect that there will be less "socialize the risk, privatize the profit" than last time this deal went to bid, as Sam Mousa was the one who shot down the last proposal, to his credit.
For sure, Khan's definitely pitching the financing similarly to the last few projects, with both private and public sector investment:
QuoteKhan, asked to discuss the financial details of the proposal, said the Jaguars' goal is a proposal that works "for everybody – something that is really, really good."
"We want the best experience, and the price tag will follow," Khan said. "Once we get into that, we'll be able to refine that. ... Just like, if you go back over the last three years, when people come to this venue now, they can't believe it's the same place. Whether it's the end zones or the boards or right here at the club level, whatever.
"What we've done is imagined the best experience then, if it's relevant, get the city to pitch in and we write a check. That's how things have happened."
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal.
I just want them to put in the hotel and move the park. I actually think a nice waterfront park with the USS Adams closer to the core could help the Berkman II and other development get off the ground. It will all be market forces from here. I do think it would be nice for the city to figure out a long term solution for the jail soon to also incentivize development in the Shipyards.
The City doesn't need Khan to do that. If that is the whole plan why involve a middle man?
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 10, 2017, 01:00:57 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal.
I just want them to put in the hotel and move the park. I actually think a nice waterfront park with the USS Adams closer to the core could help the Berkman II and other development get off the ground. It will all be market forces from here. I do think it would be nice for the city to figure out a long term solution for the jail soon to also incentivize development in the Shipyards.
^what he said. And most likely as well. Except for the jail, which is a monstrosity that will be expensive to move.
I am not saying now, or in 5-10 years, but at least a commitment to moving the jail in a long term plan in the 11 to 20 year range.
Kerry, if Khan wants public money for a hotel, I think he kind of needs a convention center attached to make it worth it for the city to put money into it. For the city, there is no benefit paying for a big hotel across from the stadium otherwise unless it can help attract new conventions and revenue streams for the city similar to the Amphitheater. It will be an interesting year if the convention center discussion really heats up.
Quote from: Adam White on March 10, 2017, 10:07:42 AM
[4] RattleGator earned his billions in property development, as evidenced by his insistence that no one who isn't a billionaire developer can understand, or have an opinion about, this stuff.
I love the way you rather blatantly put words in my mouth any idiot can see I didn't remotely suggest, and how you (and Kerry) very conveniently overlook what I didn't simply suggest but rather explicitly claimed: the billionaire, (
our billionaire), hired an accomplished executive that you can't critique -- so, ipso facto, you just magically ignore the accomplished executive. Poor thang.
Unfortunately for you, many (not all!) rich smart people *do* hire well. And Shad is clearly a rich, smart man who has hired well.
It isn't hard to comprehend how we're clearly better off as a community because of it.
Adam, unless I get deterred, I'll be in London for about a week (22-29 March) soon. If I remember correctly, you're over in Britain -- right? If so, and if you ain't skurred (and are open to a meet-up, of course), let me know.
With a couple of days to think it over and move past the "it's not exactly what I think would be best" mentality, the Jaguars proposal really is starting to grow on me a bit. It's obviously going to come down to execution and terms, but if we can get this thing built within five years, as Lamping is suggesting, via public-private partnership with the Jags, then I think it's a great net win for the city.
A few comments and questions on the site plan, moving east to west.
Hotel/Spa/Expo Space:
(https://snag.gy/IV0nF1.jpg)
I really like the inclusion of a gateway feature, and I hope it's one of several. What I loved most about the original renderings from 2015 is that even though the uses varied widely, the entire proposed Shipyards development had a unified sense of place. With all of the confusion about Met Park moving to the Shipyards and development moving to Met Park, I sincerely hope that the area remains branded as "The Shipyards," rather than something goofy like "The River District." It's authentic, deeply connected to the actual history of the area, and dare I say, a very marketable name to boot.
I also like the orientation of the hotel, and the pedestrian overpass is in line with the vision that Khan has always had of the stadium connecting directly to the river. Looks similar to what we saw with the original Daily's Place renderings:
(https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/5976235/Jax_rendering_0003_Jags-Amp-Renderings1B.0.jpg)
On all that expo space, however, I really do think that, as a city, we need to make an ultimate decision as to how we're going to move forward with a convention center before we start throwing public money into exhibition space that may potentially cannibalize those efforts. Not saying we need to build it tomorrow, but at least commit to a solution.
Mixed-use Entertainment:
(https://snag.gy/a4kF8l.jpg)
To me, this is going to be the key part of the entire project, and the part we can least afford to cheap out on. If it's so nondescript that it could pass as Phase 14 of the St. Johns Town Center, then it's going to be nothing more than a place that people drive through on their way to a sporting event or concert. But if it's unique and architecturally interesting, it will become a destination in its own right, feeding additional people into the sports district. I would really hope that this entire entertainment zone is integrated together in a whole-greater-than-the-parts kind of way.
As an example, I loved the new Bucks development that Mike wrote about a week or two ago on Modern Cities, with the interesting walkways, balcony seating, four-story brewery, etc:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business/page/1
Someone mentioned the Packers' new Titletown District as well, and it would be great to see something Jags-themed for that central greenspace in the entertainment zone as well.
(http://www.packers.com/assets/images/imported/GB/photos/article_images/2015/08-August/150820-titletown-rendering-950.jpg)
Really, I'd love to see this area of the development find ways to tie in with all of our sports franchises, particularly those that play in the stadium district (Jags, Jumbo Shrimp, Icemen, Giants). Such a great way to strengthen the bond between our franchises and the city. And by having those strong tie-ins, this area would easily become the place to spend your day for Jags road games as well.
Or, we could build a Starbucks, Panera, and Hooters, and call it a day.
The main thing I could see standing in the way of the construction of a unified entertainment district is remediation. Construction for the area would likely be staggered, as buildings to the right of the park area lie on clean land (formerly Met Park), while those to the left lie in a heavily contaminated area.
Whatever happens, we need to start cleaning up this land yesterday.
Park & Residential:
(https://snag.gy/mWQYzU.jpg)
The park, as designed, is still my least favorite part of the entire proposal. I think, as a city, we can do much better with our signature waterfront park. And, by including an exit ramp and a parking lot, I feel like we're cheating on the land swap. I also think we've got to do better on the restaurant component (the strip-mall looking render presented by the Jags). If it was on Met Park property, it wouldn't be as big of a deal. But if we're going to be paying upwards of $1 million to remediate the land under the restaurant, we shouldn't just throw up a pre-fabbed Crispers.
Still don't think we should name it Veteran's Park and relocate the memorial there, either. Again, we love our veterans, but central, family parks are supposed to be fun, boisterous places, not solemn memorials. No one hangs out at the Vietnam Memorial to kick back on a Saturday afternoon. It's a bad decision that needs to be pivoted on before it becomes politically impossible to do so.
On the positive side, the USS Adams is clearly a great addition, as is the kayak launch (though, how do the kayaks get past a floating dock?). I like the connection to Hogan's Creek, and should the greenway ever become more akin to our "Central Park" for lack of a better term, that would mitigate some of my concerns with what was presented.
And though calling the pedestrian overpass a "mini High Line" fundamentally ignores everything that makes the HL the unique, special place that it is, I do think it could be a great addition to the park if it's not half-assed (as in, it would need good landscaping, intermittent cover from the elements, and amenities (seating, photography spots (of the Adams, not the prison), etc.). Also, a little longer term, I do quite like how the overpass loops around the proposed residential and to the old Courthouse, potentially linking whatever is developed there to the park and Shipyards.
Finally, on the residential, you've got to wonder whether the city's plan is to partially remediate the property, and then complete remediation when the market dictates. I mention this because the most heavily contaminated area is clearly isolated off by itself (the westernmost residential building + parking garage). Could the plan be to shelf this expense for now and leave that land as is?
Other than that:
1) The proposed development, as noted, is pretty low density. As the project is being developed, I hope opportunities for future infill or expansion are considered.
2) Others might totally disagree, lord knows we've all had this argument for years, but the only thing missing that I'd really like to see included is space for an aquarium. There aren't a lot of major metros without one, and it would be add an additional attraction to the area. Plus, as a city, a huge portion of our value prop is built upon our waterways. It's a natural tie-in, particularly if linked to the zoo by water taxi as has long been discussed. Might take 10 years to build, but I think it deserves a good spot on the river.
3) Jax needs a 1,000 foot tower like it needs a hole in the head, but there are some interesting aspects of the other proposals. If I'm the city, Khan is selected, and the financial backing looks halfway legitimate for the other two suitors, I'm pitching the old courthouse and Annex sites to them yesterday. You know, the old Courthouse would actually make a really interesting spot for an aquarium and zoo-launch once it's opened up to the water.
Quote from: jlmann on March 10, 2017, 02:02:09 PM
QuoteThe City doesn't need Khan to do that. If that is the whole plan why involve a middle man?
this sentiment must be based on the assumption that shad has no skin in the game. the city would be on the hook for $$ for sure, but shad is not just some middle man he would be a partner. you act like he's some kinda gc just wanting to skim his % off the top
I would use the term grifter, but that is just my opinion. I can't help but imagine if Khan sold the Jags we would never hear from him again. His interest in Jacksonville extends only to point that it benefits the Jags. At least the other developers have a primary interest in real estate development.
I'm not particular excited about comments from the other proposal either. Both are using buzz words that are so 'yesterday' it is actually off-putting. Honestly, I think the City should just come out say we didn't get any viable proposals and scale down the available land and re-bid it.
Luring people off I-95? This is 2017, not 1957. Creating an innovation district? 2001 called, they want their slogan back.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 10, 2017, 03:24:23 PM
Adam, unless I get deterred, I'll be in London for about a week (22-29 March) soon. If I remember correctly, you're over in Britain -- right? If so, and if you ain't skurred (and are open to a meet-up, of course), let me know.
Hit me up! Although I live in the deepest, darkest recesses of East London, I work in the City. We can maybe meet up for a pint or something one day during the week.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 10:37:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 10, 2017, 09:54:42 AM
Funny thing is the hotel is probably the most realistic part of the proposal.
I just want them to put in the hotel and move the park. I actually think a nice waterfront park with the USS Adams closer to the core could help the Berkman II and other development get off the ground. It will all be market forces from here. I do think it would be nice for the city to figure out a long term solution for the jail soon to also incentivize development in the Shipyards.
Move the Jail, as soon as the money is there to commence planning, etc., out near the Cecil Commerce Center area; lots of open land out in that area and I think putting the Jail out there would be appropriate as many cities, both small and large, have made that move and/or are making that move, i.e., moving jails from inner cities out into the "boonies" in the county. There are other areas in the county you could put the jail, but in my opinion, that area would be the most appropriate (bus lines are in that area too leading to all areas of the county; so once an imate is released, give them a voucher to get on a bus and get back home).
I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.
Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.
And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.
Ken,
I don't think the Jags really spent much time on a real plan this time around but generally I like it. They know this is going to be a process. I really agree with you about the entrance ramp in the park. It makes no sense. I really don't understand why there needs to be a vehicular aspect to the remaining Hart overpasses. Otherwise, I think the convention issue, which has been discussed ad nauseum, will have to come to a head and a final decision made for the future of the city's convention center.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 10, 2017, 03:46:41 PM
I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.
Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.
And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.
I'm not really bothered by the jail either. If anything, I could do without the brutalist police headquarters. Fix that and the rest wouldn't look so bad. The jail, its staff, and spin-off businesses aren't bad for the downtown economy, the execution just sucks. To bad we don't have something like this.
(http://mwlarchitects.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/OK-Edmond-6.jpg)
The jail doesn't bother me either. I actually think the police headquarters would be fine if it were allowed to age like it was originally designed for:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-wxqvNCP/0/L/Police%20Building-L.jpg)
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-xSqSpNF/0/L/Police%20Building-3-L.jpg)
When it opened in 1977, it was designed to function as a rooftop garden with multiple terraces, plantings, a pool, fountain and heliport. Similar to the Oakland Museum of California. For whatever reason...security...maintenance, etc. the garden was closed and the plantings ripped out. If allowed to mature, it could have resembled the matured landscape of the Oakland Museum by now.
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Miscellaneous/Miscellaneous/i-ScZqPh5/0/L/Oakland_Museum-7_aerial-L.jpg)
Quote from: KenFSU on March 10, 2017, 03:46:41 PM
I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.
Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.
And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.
I agree. My wife and I have been downtown a few times in our visits. Walking, biking, taking in a Suns (no, I won't refer to them by that other name) game, etc. We didn't even know the jail was down there, and when I saw in an earlier post people talking about it, I actually had to go to Google Maps to identify it. Clearly not any worse than many other buildings downtown, and as you said, it actually makes you feel safer knowing there are a few dozen officers nearby.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 10, 2017, 03:46:41 PM
I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.
Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.
And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.
The jail was built in the early 90s. With a building like that you hope to get a good 40 or 50 years out of it. At that point we can move it to a better location.
Moving the Jail will not prevent officers from being assigned, detailed, or on patrol downtown or anywhere else in the city or county. The Jail doesn't bother me either, however, it appears that some or most in this forum, and others outside of this forum, would rather see something else downtown or on that property other than the Jail; and if so, then like most other cities, move it into the suburbs. Moving it will not make downtown, the city or the county less safe.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 04:32:25 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on March 10, 2017, 03:46:41 PM
I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.
Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.
And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.
The jail was built in the early 90s. With a building like that you hope to get a good 40 or 50 years out of it. At that point we can move it to a better location.
It has nothing to do with the look of the building. It has more to do with bail bond places, shelters next door, and vagrants wandering around after their brief or extended stays asking for money to get to here, there, wherever, and hanging out. It may be unpopular, and we talk about it all the time, but it remains an issue for people going downtown and just the vibe of the area. I agree though that it isn't going away anytime soon.
To paraphrase Howard Kunstler, there isn't enough Prozac in the world to make this architecture acceptable.
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/MetroJax/jaxpolice_zpsoqi99zhx.gif)
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 10, 2017, 04:41:44 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 10, 2017, 04:32:25 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on March 10, 2017, 03:46:41 PM
I think I'm the only one wholly unconcerned with the jail.
Unless you're paying incredibly close attention, it really doesn't look that much different than your standard, dated, urban office building.
And if anything, the heightened police presence makes the whole area feel the safer.
The jail was built in the early 90s. With a building like that you hope to get a good 40 or 50 years out of it. At that point we can move it to a better location.
It has nothing to do with the look of the building. It has more to do with bail bond places, shelters next door, and vagrants wandering around after their brief or extended stays asking for money to get to here, there, wherever, and hanging out. It may be unpopular, and we talk about it all the time, but it remains an issue for people going downtown and just the vibe of the area. I agree though that it isn't going away anytime soon.
The functional life of the jail has more than passed. Cells, originally designed for two occupants, have been modified to house three. Even with said modifications, inmates are forced to sleep in common areas in makeshift beds. The State and DOC frequently have to release inmates because the Fire Marshall determines they have exceeded capacity even after shifting inmates to the county prison, "pea farm."
With the moving of the Court House, the proximity argument has basically been invalidated for its current location and the design of the current Courthouse did not really adequately take into consideration the transportation of inmates for court appearances. As with most things here, our City has been very short sighted on these issues.
Also, rather than focusing on having the Sheriff's office downtown, it would be logical to consider a new location based on functionality and mission coverage. The current location does not really allow for rapid or easy deployment to the farther reaches of county (see zone offices).
I think this is a more important issue than bootstrapping a reason for a large convention space.
Gene Frenette: Pencil in Khan as No. 1 seed for Shipyards project
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/sports/columnists/gene-frenette/2017-03-10/gene-frenette-pencil-khan-no-1-seed-shipyards-project
A few quick things now that I've had a few days to look over the proposal and in response to some of the discussion on here.
1.The jail is not moving anytime soon. Too expensive for a move that will have very little impact. Its there, and we will have to come to terms with it being there for a long time. Come to terms is probably a bad phrase to use because as has been suggested, it isn't a major eye sore and provides extra security.
2. Let's just remediate the entire property. I know that its expensive but we need to bite this bullet now or it will come back to haunt us regardless of what is built on the shipyards. I guarantee it. Unless everyone is ok with people referring to our marquee water front park as "contaminated". Why limit ourselves onto what can be built there in the future, even if built Khan's plan doesn't have to be the end all be all for the Shipyards. What if this plan is widely successful and someone comes up in 20 years wanting to expand on the project and the city has to say, "Sorry, we'd love to, but we half assed making sure the soil was clean". No thanks.
3. I love the location of park, but I am not a fan of the execution. A park at the mouth of Hogans Creek is fantastic, a park that has a weird circular road thing as its defining feature is not. Also, why does the Veteran's Wall need to be moved?
4. I'm still not sure whether certain elements of this project are designed for Bay Street or Philips Hwy. Where is the density? I'll put out the disclaimer that I really want to see the next 500 footer go up in downtown Jacksonville, but I realize that this is not the time and the Shipyards is not the place. That being said, the density of the Brooklyn district is just not going to cut it here. We should expect more than a set of shops facing Bay Street.
5. Any convention space that is constructed will reduce the need for future convention space. Simple as that. I have always felt that the old courthouse site is the best spot for a new convention center, and would tie in nicely with almost any Shipyards project. But right now there is no plan for a new convention center anywhere, and like other have said on this thread we need to decide whether we want to settle for this convention space plan or go for the home run within the next 10-15 years.
Lastly, props to Mark Lamping for keeping up with the terms like Doro District. By far the best hire Shad Khan has ever made in the Jaguars organization. We are fortunate to have him here in Jacksonville.
Where is the density? Where is the density ! ? !
Sweet Jesus.
Where indeed is the density?
Haha, the Jags could put a mobile home park there and Rattler would be impressed. I think the old plan was highly unrealistic. This one isn't anything special but probably jives more with Jax's actual market conditions. I'd like to learn more before giving my full opinion on the proposal. The timeline and amount of public money needed will be very important.
Discusssions about density in most of America and definitely in the South border on the idiotic. And any concern about density on The Shipyards project *is* ridiculous.
http://atlanta.curbed.com/2015/5/7/9963408/maps-highlight-atlantas-density-compared-to-others
Tap into reality, please.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 13, 2017, 03:04:24 PM
Discusssions about density in most of America and definitely in the South border on the idiotic. And any concern about density on The Shipyards project *is* ridiculous.
http://atlanta.curbed.com/2015/5/7/9963408/maps-highlight-atlantas-density-compared-to-others
Tap into reality, please.
Tap into reality indeed. You know there's a difference between density in a downtown setting, and density across a municipality that includes suburban, rural, and undeveloped land, right?
There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?
If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 13, 2017, 03:47:13 PM
There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?
If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.
Even something the size of the amphitheater is inadequate for larger events that require a lot of floor room. Even something like the Craft and Import Beer Festival at the Arena has to improvise because so much of the facility is seating. Just the needs we have right now won't be met without something bigger.
Quote from: jlmann on March 13, 2017, 03:21:21 PM
Kerry,
none of this proposal meets your exacting standards, so what would you do?
for the record crossing your fingers and waiting for ideal small infill projects to fall out of the sky isn't a strategy
Let Khan build what he proposed but only give him 1/3 of the land to do it on. The only condition is he builds everything he proposed.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 13, 2017, 03:56:06 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 13, 2017, 03:47:13 PM
There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?
If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.
Even something the size of the amphitheater is inadequate for larger events that require a lot of floor room. Even something like the Craft and Import Beer Festival has to improvise because so much of the facility is seating. Just the needs we have right now won't be met without something bigger.
I was thinking the same thing early on but now that I have time to think about it, it seems too spread out to be of much use. I think most conventions want everything in one building or area. True adding all the clubs, Flex Field, Stadium, etc., would increase the space but walking from point A to B may be too much a determent.
^There's a reason these types of facilities aren't mixed traditionally. I see little need for Jax to go for out-the-box thinking on something where a tried and true simple solution actually works. Historically, when Jax overcomplicates simple things, especially regarding downtown, the result have not been favorable.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 14, 2017, 10:10:31 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 13, 2017, 03:56:06 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 13, 2017, 03:47:13 PM
There has been some talk here about a lack of convention space included in Khan's proposal. Does the stadium itself not qualify?
If there is a Four Seasons (or similar) hotel with a covered, pedestrian bridge connected to EverBank Field, Daily's Place, and the "flex" field indoor practice facility... does that not constitute a sufficiently large convention center? The US Assure clubs are already larger than the Prime Osborne. The "flex" field increases that existing space by at least 50%. The amphitheater should prove useful for large-scale events. Add in the little bit of additional space to the east of the hotel, and I think that should more than satisfy this city's needs, and supply the Jaguars with more of that much-needed local revenue.
Even something the size of the amphitheater is inadequate for larger events that require a lot of floor room. Even something like the Craft and Import Beer Festival has to improvise because so much of the facility is seating. Just the needs we have right now won't be met without something bigger.
I was thinking the same thing early on but now that I have time to think about it, it seems too spread out to be of much use. I think most conventions want everything in one building or area. True adding all the clubs, Flex Field, Stadium, etc., would increase the space but walking from point A to B may be too much a determent.
Eh. I think it is cool. I have walked miles in convention centers in ATL, Orlando, Chicago, or DC from ordinary looking room to ordinary looking room. I think it really can flow pretty well together with a distinct Jax feel too. The additional meeting rooms, amphitheater and space already at the stadium is the one thing that makes the stadium a better location than the old Courthouse. What we are talking about needing is an exhibition space. I still favor the Courthouse spot, but this is the one big factor in favor of the stadium area if Khan is going to build a Four Seasons one way or another.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 14, 2017, 10:21:17 AM
^There's a reason these types of facilities aren't mixed traditionally. I see little need for Jax to go for out-the-box thinking on something where a tried and true simple solution actually works. Historically, when Jax overcomplicates simple things, especially regarding downtown, the result have not been favorable.
Ennis, here's the thing: you're certainly correct about the past. However, we've never had a Shad Khan in this town *and* we've never had a Mark Lamping in this town. Now we've got both, joined together as an operating team looking to make money for themselves and provide an upgraded downtown for Jacksonville.
That's a win-win any way you slice it.
Embrace the possibilities, Ennis. Take another look at how creatively sweet that one connected facility is going to be, and how attractive it might be for conventions.
QuoteEnnis, here's the thing: you're certainly correct about the past. However, we've never had a Shad Khan in this town *and* we've never had a Mark Lamping in this town. Now we've got both, joined together as an operating team looking to make money for themselves and provide an upgraded downtown for Jacksonville.
But we have had them and better in other cities all over the globe. Also, I'm not saying they aren't a positive for downtown Jacksonville. I believe that they are. I'm specifically referring to making an indoor practice center that's not available for most of the year, your premier exhibition hall space for conventions. Seriously, if that's what Jax has to offer, are we then out of the market for any major event held during football season?
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 15, 2017, 09:12:18 AMEnnis, here's the thing: you're certainly correct about the past. However, we've never had a Shad Khan in this town *and* we've never had a Mark Lamping in this town. Now we've got both, joined together as an operating team looking to make money for themselves and provide an upgraded downtown for Jacksonville.
If I had a nickel for every time we had a supposed "savior" of downtown, that would be....a lot of nickels. First it was Toney Sleiman, then it was Cameron Kuhn, now it's Mark Lamping.
Now, to be clear: Khan's bank account is FAR bigger than the other two combined, and it appears to be a lot more liquid. The others had money on paper and assets like real estate. I have no doubt that Khan, if he wanted to, could front the money and build his entire plan in one phase. Now, he won't do that for many reasons but regardless we can't throw all eggs into one rich guy's basket.
All that said, doesn't really need to be an either/or, does it?
The stadium/Daily's Place is there already, and one way or another, we all know that Khan is getting his hotel and probably some expo space, directly connected to Daily's Place.
And irregardless, we clearly need a solution in terms of traditional, year-round convention space as well.
To me, best case scenario is traditional tried-and-true convention space on the Northbank, supporting the urban core on a day-to-day basis, and a more unique space up near the stadium, supporting a handful of special events booked by Bold that make sense for that space and might not otherwise come to Jacksonville.
Assuming that a handful of things come on line - Shipyards/Met Park development, the District, Coastline, and Skyway/riverwalk expansion in particular - you've got to think that Jacksonville's going to become increasingly attractive as a convention destination as well.
Quote from: KenFSU on March 15, 2017, 11:14:29 AM
All that said, doesn't really need to be an either/or, does it?
The stadium/Daily's Place is there already, and one way or another, we all know that Khan is getting his hotel and probably some expo space, directly connected to Daily's Place.
And irregardless, we clearly need a solution in terms of traditional, year-round convention space as well.
To me, best case scenario is traditional tried-and-true convention space on the Northbank, supporting the urban core on a day-to-day basis, and a more unique space up near the stadium, supporting a handful of special events booked by Bold that make sense for that space and might not otherwise come to Jacksonville.
Assuming that a handful of things come on line - Shipyards/Met Park development, the District, Coastline, and Skyway/riverwalk expansion in particular - you've got to think that Jacksonville's going to become increasingly attractive as a convention destination as well.
The question becomes can we afford all of that if Khan asks for public money for hotel/convention space by the stadium. Remember, the IPF is really focused on training camp and early season use from July-October when weather is really hot/rainy and maybe to get the guys out of the sun on a Tuesday to save some legs. The slowest convention season here would have to be July and August for sure since who really wants to come to Florida that time of year? I would assume our busy season would also be from January through April.Maybe October through early December would be second?
The first IPFs were coming on line around 2010 at college campuses so it will be interesting to see how they can be used.
I presumed this would not have to be emphasized but I see I was wrong: this indoor practice facility? It is wrong to write it will largely be unavailable during football season. I've written that before, Ennis has chosen to ignore it.
That is completely wrong. But let us see how the first year or two plays out.
However, this much is certain: that space will not be where the Jaguars EXCLUSIVELY practice. Not at all. All of us would do much, much better to view it as exhibition space. A different kind of exhibition space, to be sure, and with special responsibilities and demands on its use -- yes -- but exhibition space nevertheless.
To even discuss this in terms of college indoor practice facilities is to entirely confuse the issue.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 15, 2017, 03:40:32 PM
I presumed this would not have to be emphasized but I see I was wrong: this indoor practice facility? It is wrong to write it will largely be unavailable during football season. I've written that before, Ennis has chosen to ignore it.
That is completely wrong. But let us see how the first year or two plays out.
However, this much is certain: that space will not be where the Jaguars EXCLUSIVELY practice. Not at all. All of us would do much, much better to view it as exhibition space. A different kind of exhibition space, to be sure, and with special responsibilities and demands on its use -- yes -- but exhibition space nevertheless.
To even discuss this in terms of college indoor practice facilities is to entirely confuse the issue.
Just curious, and perhaps you gave your reasons before, but why do you think it will not largely be unavailable during football season?
Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line? If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season? Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft. Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.
According to the manufacturer's website for the turf being used, these are the specs:
Grab Tear (width) 275-287.4 lbs. Force
Grab Tear (length) 300-340.9 lbs. Force
I'm not going to pretend I know what this means. haha
I got this from: http://www.usfinancialnewstoday.com/story/112758/hellas-construction-selected-by-jacksonville-jaguars-to-install-turf-at-new-indoor-practice-facility-at-dailys-place.html
My guess is that is the force need to tear it, not how much weight it can support. My guess would be the playing surface is much softer than a concrete floor.
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 15, 2017, 12:03:21 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on March 15, 2017, 11:14:29 AM
All that said, doesn't really need to be an either/or, does it?
The stadium/Daily's Place is there already, and one way or another, we all know that Khan is getting his hotel and probably some expo space, directly connected to Daily's Place.
And irregardless, we clearly need a solution in terms of traditional, year-round convention space as well.
To me, best case scenario is traditional tried-and-true convention space on the Northbank, supporting the urban core on a day-to-day basis, and a more unique space up near the stadium, supporting a handful of special events booked by Bold that make sense for that space and might not otherwise come to Jacksonville.
Assuming that a handful of things come on line - Shipyards/Met Park development, the District, Coastline, and Skyway/riverwalk expansion in particular - you've got to think that Jacksonville's going to become increasingly attractive as a convention destination as well.
The question becomes can we afford all of that if Khan asks for public money for hotel/convention space by the stadium. Remember, the IPF is really focused on training camp and early season use from July-October when weather is really hot/rainy and maybe to get the guys out of the sun on a Tuesday to save some legs. The slowest convention season here would have to be July and August for sure since who really wants to come to Florida that time of year? I would assume our busy season would also be from January through April.Maybe October through early December would be second?
The first IPFs were coming on line around 2010 at college campuses so it will be interesting to see how they can be used.
You've got to think that earmarking any public money for a hotel and expo space for the Jags would be, and should be, a very difficult sell. Right? It's not exactly a quality of life investment for our local citizens. Nor does it, on its own, fill an urgent need. Like I mentioned, I think it would make a great venue for a handful of unique events if it were built, but any public money should be invested in the year-round, day-to-day convention space.
Also, despite their relationship with Khan, I have a really, really hard time believing that Four Seasons would allow a branded hotel in that Met Park spot. 10 years from now if everything is fully built out? Maybe. But as things stand now, I just don't see it.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 14, 2017, 10:21:17 AM
^There's a reason these types of facilities aren't mixed traditionally. I see little need for Jax to go for out-the-box thinking on something where a tried and true simple solution actually works. Historically, when Jax overcomplicates simple things, especially regarding downtown, the result have not been favorable.
The Georgia World Congress Center, although more of a traditional convention space, is managed by the Georgia World Congress Center Authority... which also manages the Georgia Dome and Centennial Olympic Park (all right next door to each other). I'm sure that's all changing with the new stadium up there, but it's worked well for Atlanta for about 25 years. It's not that far outside the box.
I'm not aware of the exhibition hall being closed have the year in order to be used as an indoor football practice facility though.
Quote from: Kerry on March 15, 2017, 05:05:03 PM
My guess is that is the force need to tear it, not how much weight it can support. My guess would be the playing surface is much softer than a concrete floor.
If they can have Monster Jam in the stadium, I'm sure they can figure out a way to put a floor down on an indoor, artificial playing surface.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 16, 2017, 09:59:41 AM
I'm not aware of the exhibition hall being closed have the year in order to be used as an indoor football practice facility though.
Well the Falcons practice at their team facility out in Flowery Branch, so that's not an issue. Atlanta is also one of the world's busiest travel hubs, and at least 5 times larger than Jacksonville. They need more space than we do.
The flex field could be used as convention space from January (barring playoffs, and I think we can safely bar playoffs around here) through July, excluding about 3 days in May. It could be used when the team is on the road. It could be used every Monday and Tuesday, all year round, because Monday and Tuesday are typically not practice days during the season.
Meanwhile, the stadium itself already has equal the space of the Prime Osborn and is used exactly 7 days of the year by the Jaguars, which already feels like more programming than the PFO gets.
Quote from: Kerry on March 15, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line? If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season? Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft. Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.
You're right. Electricity on a football field seems like an impossible problem to solve. It's not like it's been fairly standard practice in home construction to put outlets on the floor, where they will hide under rugs, since at least the 1960s. Now they even recess them so the cord won't stick out! We live in the future.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 16, 2017, 09:54:43 AMThe Georgia World Congress Center, although more of a traditional convention space, is managed by the Georgia World Congress Center Authority... which also manages the Georgia Dome and Centennial Olympic Park (all right next door to each other). I'm sure that's all changing with the new stadium up there, but it's worked well for Atlanta for about 25 years. It's not that far outside the box.
That's not the same thing. SMG manages both the Prime Osborne and EverBank Field today. Managing two facilities is one thing; using them for two different things is another. There are definitely times where convention-type events happen in the Georgia Dome (though I'm guessing not a ton since the GWCC is quite large (albeit an annoying layout compared to McCormick in Chicago and some of the other big ones).
Another difference is Atlanta has a TON of hotels right at GWCC (or within an easy walk). I think that's the key here. The Hyatt is the poster child for the big box convention hotel. You're not going to build another 1,000 room hotel downtown, and typically convention center hotels aren't at the top of the hotel pyramid like a Four Seasons (Chicago's is a Hyatt, Orlando's is a Hilton and something else, San Diego has a Hilton and a Marriott and a bunch right across the street).
Since you can't move the Hyatt, I think you have to do the convention center next to the Hyatt.
Quote from: Steve on March 16, 2017, 12:35:10 PM
Since you can't move the Hyatt, I think you have to do the convention center next to the Hyatt.
Agreed. I imagine Jacksonville could compete pretty well for conventions if there was a shuttle between the airport and the Hyatt and a new convention center was built right next to it.
Quote from: JBTripper on March 16, 2017, 10:15:46 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 15, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line? If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season? Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft. Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.
You're right. Electricity on a football field seems like an impossible problem to solve. It's not like it's been fairly standard practice in home construction to put outlets on the floor, where they will hide under rugs, since at least the 1960s. Now they even recess them so the cord won't stick out! We live in the future.
You're right, we live in the future and I don't think you understand the complexities of running a modern convention center. You can't just run a bunch of extension cords under some plywood sheets. Modern convention space has outlets for electricity, fiber optics, compressed air, natural gas, telephone, water, and a whole host of other items imbeded in the floor.
Quote from: Kerry on March 16, 2017, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 16, 2017, 10:15:46 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 15, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line? If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season? Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft. Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.
You're right. Electricity on a football field seems like an impossible problem to solve. It's not like it's been fairly standard practice in home construction to put outlets on the floor, where they will hide under rugs, since at least the 1960s. Now they even recess them so the cord won't stick out! We live in the future.
You're right, we live in the future and I don't think you understand the complexities of running a modern convention center. You can't just run a bunch of extension cords under some plywood sheets. Modern convention space has outlets for electricity, fiber optics, compressed air, natural gas, telephone, water, and a whole host of other items imbeded in the floor.
All of this. For the Flex Field to be a valid convention center space, it should have had to be designed with that in mind from the beginning. You cannot easily retro fit that space with the infrastructure necessary for convention center use without compromising somewhere.
A flexible outdoor space should not be shoehorned into a role that is inadequate to meet the needs and demands of that role. Practice facility? Yes. Pre-game entertainment? Yes. Open air events? Yes. Convention center? No.
Quote from: Kerry on March 16, 2017, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 16, 2017, 10:15:46 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 15, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line? If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season? Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft. Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.
You're right. Electricity on a football field seems like an impossible problem to solve. It's not like it's been fairly standard practice in home construction to put outlets on the floor, where they will hide under rugs, since at least the 1960s. Now they even recess them so the cord won't stick out! We live in the future.
You're right, we live in the future and I don't think you understand the complexities of running a modern convention center. You can't just run a bunch of extension cords under some plywood sheets. Modern convention space has outlets for electricity, fiber optics, compressed air, natural gas, telephone, water, and a whole host of other items imbeded in the floor.
Are we just assuming that the flex field will not have any of that? I assumed it will have some of that, otherwise it's not all that flexible.
Quote from: Jim on March 16, 2017, 02:09:19 PM
Quote from: Kerry on March 16, 2017, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on March 16, 2017, 10:15:46 AM
Quote from: Kerry on March 15, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
Is this practice facility going to have electrical outlets at the 50 yard line? If not, where are exhibitors going to plug in during convention season? Load capacity for the average cc floor is 350 lbs/sq ft. Anyone know if the practice facility is being built to that level without damaging the playing surface.
You're right. Electricity on a football field seems like an impossible problem to solve. It's not like it's been fairly standard practice in home construction to put outlets on the floor, where they will hide under rugs, since at least the 1960s. Now they even recess them so the cord won't stick out! We live in the future.
You're right, we live in the future and I don't think you understand the complexities of running a modern convention center. You can't just run a bunch of extension cords under some plywood sheets. Modern convention space has outlets for electricity, fiber optics, compressed air, natural gas, telephone, water, and a whole host of other items imbeded in the floor.
All of this. For the Flex Field to be a valid convention center space, it should have had to be designed with that in mind from the beginning. You cannot easily retro fit that space with the infrastructure necessary for convention center use without compromising somewhere.
A flexible outdoor space should not be shoehorned into a role that is inadequate to meet the needs and demands of that role. Practice facility? Yes. Pre-game entertainment? Yes. Open air events? Yes. Convention center? No.
Was it not? It's not actually built yet, so you don't have to retrofit anything. Has anyone on this forum seen the design of this facility, detailed down to what's under the artificial turf on the flex field? The artists don't usually include that stuff in their renderings. I could be wrong, of course, but my understanding of the "flex" field was that it would be "flexible" enough for multiple uses... Which probably means it's got more to it than fake grass. If it doesn't, then it needs a new name.
Convention Centers are more than just carpeted warehouses. There are some surprisingly complex systems in place to handle different show's needs.
I'd be shocked if the Flex Field had these needs.
^I can't speak to the schematics, but the Jaguars and Bold are certainly speaking as if the flex field will be event-ready and that events will be a big part of their strategy.
The just held a trade show at the stadium last week.
From the T-U:
Quotehttp://jacksonville.com/metro/business/2017-03-20/nfl-teams-companies-wheel-and-deal-during-trade-show-monday-everbank-field
NFL teams, companies wheel and deal during trade show Monday at EverBank Field
Doug Strohm was relieved to be in Jacksonville on Monday morning to promote his electrified magnetic football game as part of the NFL Consumer Product Summit.
The summit has been held for 16 years, but this is the first time it has come to Jacksonville.
Strohm, president of Tudor Games Inc., flew in from Sammamish, Wash., outside of Seattle, to attend the event hoping to snag retail deals with some of the 32 representatives of every NFL team. His game boards are technologically updated versions of the old favorite that makes miniature player figurines customized for NFL teams move across a metal scale football field.
"We normally will go wherever it [the summit] is. But it's specifically appealing to me to be able to come Jacksonville when we've had three days of sunny weather since November in Seattle. So personally, I'm all for it," Strohm said with a laugh.
And that's exactly the tack the Jacksonville Jaguars organization took to pitch the NFL in hopes of landing the event.
Jaguars President Mark Lamping said Visit Jacksonville, the city's tourism bureau, helped coax the NFL to hold the event at EverBank Field.
Jacksonville beat out the cities of Chicago, Indianapolis and Minneapolis for this year's summit. Last year, it was in Charlotte, N.C.
"We have members of the immediate and extended NFL family coming from all over the country and visiting Jacksonville," Lamping said in his office at EverBank Field. " It's always a great thing to be able to show off a city that we love so much.
"But in addition to that, one of the great things that will come out of this is that we will have a great example of the types of large events that the reconfigured EverBank Field can successfully hold," Lamping said.
The summit is designed to get product companies and manufacturers with official NFL licenses to reach deals with retailers such as Fanatics, which is based in Jacksonville, or Wal-Mart, or other stores and online sites.
It's also an opportunity for athletic gear companies such as Under Armour and Nike, among others, to meet with equipment managers from every team to pitch their products. Deals being negotiated include uniforms, practice equipment, protective gear and staff apparel.
About 150 NFL-licensed companies had booths and displays inside the interior hallways of the stadium for the event that continues through Tuesday. It is not open to the general public.
Brian Lowe is the sales manager for For Bare Feet Original, which produces socksfor every NFL franchise. At his booth on the second floor of the stadium, he said the NFL Product Summit is invaluable to businesses like his.
"It gives us a chance to see all the teams in one location," said Lowe who is attending his seventh summit. "This gives us an opportunity to get everyone in one building and it is cohesive."
Chris Halpin, senior vice president of licensing and consumer products, said most NFL fans are completely oblivious to the product summit. But for the "inside football" business crowd, it's a huge off-season event and holding it in Jacksonville was appealing.
"The summit is the moment when all of our consumer products both on field and for fans come together," Halpin said. "We move it to a different team each year."
Halpin credited Jaguars owner Shad Khan and Lamping for heightening awareness of the ability of the Jaguars franchise to host the product summit. But he also said Jacksonville itself was alluring.
"It's a vibrant, dynamic city. It's good to have it in the South and connect to our fans down here. And it's a place a lot of our licensees and partners wanted to come. They enjoy it," Halpin said while sitting in the owner's luxury suite atop EverBank Field.
"It's a neat way to plug into the league," Halpin said. "It's about 1,000 attendees from all elements of the NFL community. It's also a great moment for the [host] team to tell its story, its brand positioning [and] where it's going."
Ultimately, Lamping said the sister company of the Jaguars called Bold Events will begin trying to bring more events to the stadium similar to the NFL Consumer Product Summit. But many of those events likely won't have anything to do with the NFL and will also include the Daily's Place amphitheater and the Flex Field indoor training facility that are both currently under construction.
"Our goal is to have a very busy building," Lamping said. "It's important for two reasons: The indirect reason ... is when you have people traveling to Jacksonville, staying in downtown Jacksonville hotels, eating out at restaurants, it creates an economic impact that's good for the community ... .
"But directly, Bold Events was created as one of our strategies to generate local revenue to help meet our goal of having a stable, sustainable NFL franchise here in Jacksonville."
He added that the product summit did bring in revenue for the Jaguars operation, though he declined to disclose how much the league paid the franchise for hosting the event.
Many of the trade show attendees stayed at downtown hotels that were pitched as part of a package deal. The Jaguars also arranged entertainment and dining events at Intuition Ale Works near the stadium and at TPC Sawgrass in Ponte Vedra Beach.
"I think we have clearly added to the exhibition space capacity of downtown Jacksonville. And to a degree, we can utilize that space along with the other space that's already in downtown Jacksonville to attract more people to come and visit," Lamping said.
I think everyone is still talking about two different animals. Sure, you can have some trade shows and occasional events at the flex field. That happens in similar facilities around the country as well. However, it isn't a substitute for an every day convention center facility.
Can you hold the Concours D'Elegance there? Yes. Can you hold CES there? No.
So again. Practice facility? Yes. Pre-game entertainment? Yes. Open air events? Yes. Convention center? No.
I just looked at Bold Events website, and here are the spaces available under one roof. 2 - 62,000 square foot US Assure clubs, Fields Terrace club - 42,000 square foot, a 5,500 seat amphitheater plus a 94,000 square foot climate controlled flex space. that is a total of 260,000 square feet plus an amphitheater. All of it is easily accessible in a unique setting. Just saying, maybe not the craziest idea after all.
Quote from: CG7 on March 27, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
I just looked at Bold Events website, and here are the spaces available under one roof. 2 - 62,000 square foot US Assure clubs, Fields Terrace club - 42,000 square foot, a 5,500 seat amphitheater plus a 94,000 square foot climate controlled flex space. that is a total of 260,000 square feet plus an amphitheater. All of it is easily accessible in a unique setting. Just saying, maybe not the craziest idea after all.
All of that is great for a very specific type of events. In terms of exhibition hall space, it's limited to open air capable events. Prime Osborne actually has a total of 265,000 square feet itself but only 80,000 for open floor exhibitions with the infrastructure you expect a convention center to have (which the Flex Field does not).
Can those spaces be used for something interesting? Of course. But there is no way in hell it can function as a modern convention center without seriously sacrificing on the infrastructure needs.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2017, 12:15:32 PM
I think everyone is still talking about two different animals. Sure, you can have some trade shows and occasional events at the flex field. That happens in similar facilities around the country as well. However, it isn't a substitute for an every day convention center facility.
It is becoming more clear though that they want a hotel that does have significant convention space, if not a convention center, by the stadium in order to bolster the year long events/revenue. They believe they can sell and market it all to attract additional events and conventions. It is also true that, during our prime convention times from January to May, the Flex Field is available as additional close space to a possible convention center. We will see how this unfolds.
Quote from: CG7 on March 27, 2017, 04:11:57 PM
I just looked at Bold Events website, and here are the spaces available under one roof. 2 - 62,000 square foot US Assure clubs, Fields Terrace club - 42,000 square foot, a 5,500 seat amphitheater plus a 94,000 square foot climate controlled flex space. that is a total of 260,000 square feet plus an amphitheater. All of it is easily accessible in a unique setting. Just saying, maybe not the craziest idea after all.
This is hugely misleading, and forgive me for judging, but I'm guessing you're not a frequent attendee of events in the stadium.
- The Field Terrace Club is the Terrace Suite of the stadium. It's a restaurant that on one side overlooks the stadium, on the other overlooks the Amphitheater.
- The US Assure Clubs are the East and West Clubs of the stadium. Check out jaguars.com for renderings. It's lounge space adjacent to the prime Stadium Seats - not accessible from the rest of the complex without walking down the concourse of the stadium.
- An Amphitheater isn't exactly convention floor space. That's like saying the Moran Theater at the TU Center is a small convention center.
- That leaves the 94k SqFt of the field itself.
BTW, I'm spending the next two days at the David Lawrence Center in Pittsburgh - it's 1.5M SqFt, and has a Westin attached. While a lot larger, from what I see online this should be a model for Jacksonville. I'll let you know my thoughts.
http://www.pittsburghcc.com
I go to the stadium to football games as well as things like the food fight etc. I also go to conventions and trade shows around the country (I'm in the wire business, we make up reasons to have trade shows) I'm just saying if you use it creatively (think outside the box if you will)
it has as much if not more usable space as most of the spaces in comparable cities, but all of the spaces are more high end. I would rather come to a space like that than say the Kansas city convention center.
Quote from: Steve on March 27, 2017, 04:43:12 PM
BTW, I'm spending the next two days at the David Lawrence Center in Pittsburgh - it's 1.5M SqFt, and has a Westin attached. While a lot larger, from what I see online this should be a model for Jacksonville. I'll let you know my thoughts.
http://www.pittsburghcc.com
Hmm...right in the middle of the downtown core and not too far away from North Shore and the Strip District....
Quote from: CG7 on March 27, 2017, 04:51:16 PM
I go to the stadium to football games as well as things like the food fight etc. I also go to conventions and trade shows around the country (I'm in the wire business, we make up reasons to have trade shows) I'm just saying if you use it creatively (think outside the box if you will)
it has as much if not more usable space as most of the spaces in comparable cities, but all of the spaces are more high end. I would rather come to a space like that than say the Kansas city convention center.
Based on your background can you imagine hosting a convention requiring 150k square feet on a football field, amphitheater, restaurant, and lounge, none of which are actually connected (save for the amphitheater and football field)?
It won't happen. Instead, you'd take your convention to a larger cohesive facility attached to a decent-sized hotel with things to do around it, like the Ocean Center in Daytona.
"The future of ball parks"
http://jacksonville.com/sports/2017-03-29/braves-new-ballpark-could-be-game-changer-industry
What Khan has proposed is sort of retrofitting the area around the stadium to include the items/ideas listed in the article. If he could start from scratch, I suspect it'd be similar to the Atlanta Braves concept.
Yes, more and more sports franchises are getting into the real estate development business:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business (http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business)
The Packers paid a million dollars in property taxes last year...
http://www.packersnews.com/story/news/2017/03/17/packers-property-taxes-fall-during-construction/99132744/
Quote from: fieldafm on March 30, 2017, 09:01:27 AM
Yes, more and more sports franchises are getting into the real estate development business:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business (http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business)
...but are any of them successful? The Mavericks ownership developed Victory Park in Dallas and the reviews have been far less than stellar.
Quote from: Kerry on March 30, 2017, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on March 30, 2017, 09:01:27 AM
Yes, more and more sports franchises are getting into the real estate development business:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business (http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business)
...but are any of them successful? The Mavericks ownership developed Victory Park in Dallas and the reviews have been far less than stellar.
Patriot Place in New England has been remarkably succesful. There are other factors at play helping it out, but successful nonetheless.
Quote from: Kerry on March 30, 2017, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on March 30, 2017, 09:01:27 AM
Yes, more and more sports franchises are getting into the real estate development business:
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business (http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business)
...but are any of them successful? The Mavericks ownership developed Victory Park in Dallas and the reviews have been far less than stellar.
Depends on the approach.
Ballpark Village in St Louis could be considered a 'success' and phase 2 is underway now. Ballpark Village has the advantage of being close to Busch Stadium (which between the Cardinals and Scottrade Center where the Blues play in nearby, is used far more often then Everbank Field) and within walking distance of several hotels and a couple of corporate headquarters (Hardees, Purina).
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business/page/2 (http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business/page/2)
China Basin, the development arm of the San Francisco Giants, has partnered with other development companies to spur construction of mixed use buildings in Mission Bay. On property next to the ballpark, they've created a pretty cool pop-up shipping container village which just re-opened for the season this week. That particular site will get redeveloped eventually, so its worth noting that they are taking a very incremental approach. The properties are also in a prime location in a neighborhood where real estate development is white hot.
http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business/page/2 (http://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-jan-milwaukee-bucks-enter-the-placemaking-business/page/2)
A cautionary tale for Jacksonville, where the Shipyards property has already gone through three failed iterations/developers, would be American Dream Meadowlands.. the perpetually stalled project next to MetLife Stadium (also on its third developer).
Quote from: fieldafm on March 30, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Depends on the approach.
Ballpark Village in St Louis could be considered a 'success' and phase 2 is underway now. Ballpark Village has the advantage of being close to Busch Stadium (which between the Cardinals and Scottrade Center where the Blues play in nearby, is used far more often then Everbank Field) and within walking distance of several hotels and a couple of corporate headquarters (Hardees, Purina).
Was going to say this.
I spend time in St Louis for work. The Ballpark Village near Busch Stadium seems to do well.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 30, 2017, 02:45:23 PM
Ballpark Village in St Louis could be considered a 'success' and phase 2 is underway now. Ballpark Village has the advantage of being close to Busch Stadium (which between the Cardinals and Scottrade Center where the Blues play in nearby, is used far more often then Everbank Field) and within walking distance of several hotels and a couple of corporate headquarters (Hardees, Purina).
I'd just like to namedrop a little bit right here.... Sound familiar?
QuoteDEC. 17, 2000
• "Our No. 1 objective is for this to be developed in a way that supports downtown St. Louis and enhances the experience our fans have when they come to the new ballpark."— then-Cardinals President Mark Lamping.
That said, I since the Meadowlands was mentioned, I looked and can't seem to find any of Lamping's fingerprints on the American Dream Meadowlands issue. So another win.
Let's try not to put the American Dream debacle in an apples to apples comparison of surrounding development of sports arenas. American Dream is (currently) being undertaken by the developers of Mall Of America and the West Edmonton Mall and although it's in the Meadowlands Sports Complex property there is no direct involvement in the mall's development by the ownership of the Giants, Jets, the horse track, or former teams that played in the now torn down Izod Center.
QuoteFLORIDA POLITICS
House approves crackdown on public investment in pro sports stadiums
MICHAEL MOLINE
6 hours ago
The Florida House approved legislation on an 82-33 vote Thursday that would ban professional sports teams from building or refurbishing stadiums on public land.
CS/HB 77, by Bryan Avila, would forbid the construction, renovation, or improvement on any pro facility "on public land leased from the state or a political subdivision thereof."
Cities and counties could sell public land to teams only at fair market value. Teams would have to assume public debt undertaken for their facilities if they move away.
Coconut Creek Democrat Kristin Jacobs said she liked the idea but warned of unintended consequences. She pointed to negotiations with a new owner of the Florida Panther that required Broward County to upgrade the scoreboard, club room, and other amenities at the BB&T Center.
"This bill would preclude that investment by Broward County. And if, in fact, the county could not go forward and make these investments to attract a new owner, guess what? You'd have no team. You'd have a big, hulking, empty facility that costs the taxpayers."
Avila maintained that anyone with enough money to buy a professional sports franchise can afford any improvements.
"I ask that you think about taxpayers. I ask that you think about protecting public dollars. And I ask that you do away with this practice of giving away our taxpayers' moneys and giving away publicly owned land to businesses that have more than enough capital to buy the land, purchase the materials for the stadium, to construct the stadium, and be able to be profitable without any sort of government incentive."
^I can't see this passing in the state Senate, or getting signed off on by the governor. As it's written, it's a pretty stupid bill. It literally makes no sense. It's way too broad, treating every situation the same, and treating billionaire NFL owners the same as struggling minor league sports owners. By my reading of the bill, the Shipyards wouldn't fall into the "facility" category. However, the renovations at the stadium and public/private partnership on Daily's Place would not have been possible. In order for the Jaguars to contribute toward any stadium construction, we'd have to sell them the land under the stadium at fair market value. Despite the fact that our stadium predates the Jaguars by a legitimate SEVENTY YEARS.
JaxONE plan reveals details of Shipyards 'jobs factory'
(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/storyimages/1491319534view-from-river.jpg)
(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/storyimages/1491319534Hi-Res_MAIN_Ideation-Pavilion.jpg)
(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/storyimages/1491319534Hi-Res_MAIN_Roof-Top.jpg)
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=549655
Boring but realistic. I still think Khan gets the property
Quote from: JaGoaT on April 04, 2017, 07:21:55 PM
Boring but realistic. I still think Khan gets the property
If I were Khan, I would be pushing for another developer to take over the property and deal with them directly to get what I want - which is Met Park. Sure, he has a vested interest in that property getting developed, but if other people with the finances to do it came to town, I'm pretty sure that would be his preference.
It's definitely in his best interest if that entire strip goes vertical from Berkman 2 to the stadium, but I get the feeling he would prefer if it were someone else who took the majority of the risk.
This supports the idea that the city didnt really market the RFP very well.
QuoteThe Presidium Group is a Texas-based multifamily developer with more than 50 assets under management. Its proposal was put together in a few days after Presidium founder Cross Moceri saw media reports about the proposal while in town for a apartment project the group is developing near JTB.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/04/10/shipyard-redevelopment-proposals-unsealed-new.html
ProjectMaximus, really? Any serious developer with potential interest already knew about this project. There have been multiple bites at this apple and the last go-round Shad Khan's proposal created quite a splash *but* the RFP didn't generate real interest from a bunch of developers. I don't know why there's a feeling the City somehow failed to do something right on this project because marketing this RFP doesn't seem like much of an issue to me.
Please no to JaxOne, is that a parking garage right on the riverfront there?
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 12, 2017, 04:53:27 PM
ProjectMaximus, really? Any serious developer with potential interest already knew about this project. There have been multiple bites at this apple and the last go-round Shad Khan's proposal created quite a splash *but* the RFP didn't generate real interest from a bunch of developers. I don't know why there's a feeling the City somehow failed to do something right on this project because marketing this RFP doesn't seem like much of an issue to me.
I can' access the article, but the first time two bids were submitted, IIRC. Three were submitted this time. If this were truly well advertised and the potential field of bidders actually thought they would have a fair shot, I think there would have been more bids.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 13, 2017, 12:46:04 PM
Please no to JaxOne, is that a parking garage right on the riverfront there?
JaxOne doesn't have a prayer.
Their terms are almost comical.
$5 million to lease the land, plus $2 million in environmental clean up, to be paid out over the next FIFTY YEARS.
Sea Glass ain't gonna happen either. It would require complete remediation of the Shipyards property and develops Met Park without providing an in-kind land swap, not to mention the fact that Jacksonville needs a 1,000 foot tower like it needs a hole in the head.
Iguana has this one in the bag.
Per their proposal, Khan's group is willing to pay market value for the land, privately invest up to $650 million for the development (tentatively called The Shipyards Jacksonville), and build out all 70 acres in 3-5 years. Possible? Maybe. Probable? Who knows.
Also disagree that this some kind of secret. Any major developer worth his salt would know that this land has been up for the taking for over a decade now. It ain't a surprise. The reason there isn't a multitude of major takers seems obvious. It's contaminated land, without a cleanup plan, in an unproven market, with a complicated land swap thrown in. Would take someone with a vested interest to undertake such a venture.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 13, 2017, 11:20:42 PM
Also disagree that this some kind of secret. Any major developer worth his salt would know that this land has been up for the taking for over a decade now. It ain't a surprise. The reason there isn't a multitude of major takers seems obvious. It's contaminated land, without a cleanup plan, in an unproven market, with a complicated land swap thrown in. Would take someone with a vested interest to undertake such a venture.
I am not saying you are wrong with most or even anything you say above above, but the quote I posted would suggest that at least one developer with a serious interest had no idea until he happened to hear about it in passing at the 11th hour.
QuoteAny major developer worth his salt would know that this land has been up for the taking for over a decade now. It ain't a surprise.
A NE FL developer would but there is no particular reason to assume a developer in Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas, DC, or anywhere else would be aware of it.
I can't believe that a large developer that would take this on wouldn't know about this piece of property. These guys have folks that are always scouting opportunities.
I just can't picture them not knowing.
Not comical, but boring? Yes. It reminds me of a senior citizens (that I am by the way) development for retirees in Palm Beach or Boca Raton. I think Khan's is more exciting and full of life for the community and outsiders that have never been to Jax; if they visit, they'll go back up north, or to wherever, and share the "buzz" about Jacksonville.
Quote from: Steve on April 14, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
I can't believe that a large developer that would take this on wouldn't know about this piece of property. These guys have folks that are always scouting opportunities.
I just can't picture them not knowing.
For real -- developers can't sit on their ass waiting to be notified of opportunities, man. They have to go hunt them down and COMPETE. That's what some don't seem to grasp on this project; we're EXTREMELY fortunate Shad is around and willing to throw his hat in the ring. I honestly don't get why that is so hard to acknowledge.
Yes, he probably crowded out some that *may* have been interested but none of them likely would be as invested in making this thing work as Shad's operation certainly will be.
If the land were split up and already cleaned, you'd get a bigger response. However, in its current state (including the city's relationship with the Jags), it's not surprising that the amount of responses were limited.
Quote from: Steve on April 14, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
I can't believe that a large developer that would take this on wouldn't know about this piece of property. These guys have folks that are always scouting opportunities.
I just can't picture them not knowing.
Even if it is not a market they have done business in before and is not a 'hot market' in development circles?
If indeed you are correct, what does it say that so few bid? To me it says they didn't think they had a shot, or it just isn't an appealing project, probably due to the contamination. If it is the later, how is that being handled with the three that did bid? Is the city still doing the clean-up?
Yes. City still responsible for most part. Stephanie Brown on WOKVhas a pretty thourough story posted about the various bids.
Quote from: edjax on April 14, 2017, 03:12:44 PM
Yes. City still responsible for most part. Stephanie Brown on WOKVhas a pretty thourough story posted about the various bids.
http://www.wokv.com/news/local/shipyards-riverfront-redevelopment-proposals-cost-each-hundreds-millions-dollars/UwdVWOLXyWMgk2pG5tpBvO/
Quote from: vicupstate on April 14, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 14, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
I can't believe that a large developer that would take this on wouldn't know about this piece of property. These guys have folks that are always scouting opportunities.
I just can't picture them not knowing.
Even if it is not a market they have done business in before and is not a 'hot market' in development circles?
If indeed you are correct, what does it say that so few bid? To me it says they didn't think they had a shot, or it just isn't an appealing project, probably due to the contamination. If it is the later, how is that being handled with the three that did bid? Is the city still doing the clean-up?
If interested, I can't imagine many thinking they would have a real shot, given the history and discussion surrounding the sports district over the last couple of years.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 14, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 14, 2017, 10:12:00 AM
I can't believe that a large developer that would take this on wouldn't know about this piece of property. These guys have folks that are always scouting opportunities.
I just can't picture them not knowing.
Even if it is not a market they have done business in before and is not a 'hot market' in development circles?
Absolutely. Even when I worked for a smaller engineering company, we always had at least person whose entire job was to scour procurement pages around the country and flag potential opportunities and RFPs. Something tells me that the major developers around the country didn't rise to prominence by being reactive and sitting around waiting for opportunities to fall into their lap. Plus, Jacksonville is a Top 40 Metro and an NFL city. Even if we're not Miami or Atlanta, we should be on the radar.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 14, 2017, 03:05:22 PMIf indeed you are correct, what does it say that so few bid? To me it says they didn't think they had a shot, or it just isn't an appealing project, probably due to the contamination. If it is the later, how is that being handled with the three that did bid? Is the city still doing the clean-up?
The clean-up would be handled by whoever wins the RFP in a manner agreed to by the city. Obviously, that's a non-answer, but it really is the answer right now.
In terms of desirable project, I do think Jacksonville's economics do play into the lack of desirability. For example, even in markets like Miami, Charlotte, Atlanta, etc. a developer can get a dramatically higher ROI on the property, and the cleanup is part of it. For example, to clean up this type of property in Miami, it would likely cost only slightly more than here (labor rates will be a little higher), but what you develop can be sold or leased for dramatically more, thereby making this a lot more desirable project.
And look, I'm sure there is some aspect where large scale national developers that have the resources to take this probably assume that Khan has the inside track.
Interesting to note that even though Iguana's plan calls for the city to pay for cleanup, infrastructure improvements, and relocation of Metro Park, Iguana is willing to advance the city the money to be repaid later.
Looking through the WOKV article, it is pretty clear that Khan's proposal is the only serious one, and the others are more Sim City than reality. Khan's proposal means the city is on the hook for remediation, Met Park relocation and infrastructure. The only thing Khan is offering is the 'money advance' that KenFSu mentions. No details on the timing or interest rate of that payback is given.
Unless the terms of Khan' s advance are VERY generous, the city would be better off to do the remediation, build a no frills basic 'replacement' for Met Park and then put out a new RFP. There would be a lot less uncertainty and thus more interest. The city could expect much better terms at that point.
^Agree to disagree, Vic. Khan is offering more than a money advance. He's offering to buy the land at current market value, appoint a board of local business and community leaders to oversee the project, consult on remediation, and privately bankroll up to $650 million in fast-tracked development. It's a project that makes perfect sense to Khan because it complements his other investments, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to other developers who aren't already heavily vested in the sports complex. This parcel has been in limbo for decades, and at this point, an egg in the hand is worth 10 in the bush, especially if the egg was laid by one of the wealthiest individuals in the world. The city SHOULD be on the hook for remediation, and we've got $13 million just sitting there in the city coffers designated for said remediation. To your point, it would also cost a hell of a lot more money to remediate the property without a development plan in place to remediate around. There's simply no way the city doesn't ROI on a Khan-driven Shipyards development in the long run. It solves a problem we're clearly incapable of solving on our own, strengthens our downtown, activates more of the St. Johns River, provides positive externalities for our entire sports complex, and cements the Jaguars in Jacksonville for a long time to come.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 14, 2017, 10:48:57 PM
^Agree to disagree, Vic. Khan is offering more than a money advance. He's offering to buy the land at current market value, appoint a board of local business and community leaders to oversee the project, consult on remediation, and privately bankroll up to $650 million in fast-tracked development. It's a project that makes perfect sense to Khan because it complements his other investments, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to other developers who aren't already heavily vested in the sports complex. This parcel has been in limbo for decades, and at this point, an egg in the hand is worth 10 in the bush, especially if the egg was laid by one of the wealthiest individuals in the world. The city SHOULD be on the hook for remediation, and we've got $13 million just sitting there in the city coffers designated for said remediation. To your point, it would also cost a hell of a lot more money to remediate the property without a development plan in place to remediate around. There's simply no way the city doesn't ROI on a Khan-driven Shipyards development in the long run. It solves a problem we're clearly incapable of solving on our own, strengthens our downtown, activates more of the St. Johns River, provides positive externalities for our entire sports complex, and cements the Jaguars in Jacksonville for a long time to come.
The Khan plan is $500 mm not $650 mm and nowhere in that article does it say he is 'bankrolling' anything. EVERY transaction between the Jags and the City has been VERY favorable to the Jags and I would expect this to be the same. The first phase is basically a Hotel complex with some retail thrown it. You are letting your fantasies take over your judgment, which is what Khan is hoping for.
The purpose of that 'board' is to put him firmly in control, and prevent the typical Coj screw up. The later is a good idea, but I fear the city gets the bill for the cost WITHOUT any control, just like the Stadium itself.
I don't see any savings in remediation either. It will be whatever it is going to be.
QuotePhase 1 construction- to include up to 100 multi-family residential units, a five star hotel with up to 250 rooms and a restaurant, structured parking, more than 75,000 square feet or office/restaurant/retail space, public infrastructure, and associated public space- is estimated to start a little more than two years from now, with project design, approval, zoning and other things needing to fall in place first.
So if everything works out, groundbreaking for Phase 1 would be around Summer 2019. The hotel is also pretty small for a convention center style hotel, so the issue of what to do with the Prime Osborn may still be floating over Jax's head.
Jaguars owner Shad Khan facing stiffer competition for Shipyards this time
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-04-17/jaguars-owner-shad-khan-facing-stiffer-competition-shipyards-time
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2017, 11:21:52 PM
QuotePhase 1 construction- to include up to 100 multi-family residential units, a five star hotel with up to 250 rooms and a restaurant, structured parking, more than 75,000 square feet or office/restaurant/retail space, public infrastructure, and associated public space- is estimated to start a little more than two years from now, with project design, approval, zoning and other things needing to fall in place first.
So if everything works out, groundbreaking for Phase 1 would be around Summer 2019. The hotel is also pretty small for a convention center style hotel, so the issue of what to do with the Prime Osborn may still be floating over Jax's head.
I think it definitely will. I think this would help push the consensus towards the old Courthouse site...
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 17, 2017, 12:37:16 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 15, 2017, 11:21:52 PM
QuotePhase 1 construction- to include up to 100 multi-family residential units, a five star hotel with up to 250 rooms and a restaurant, structured parking, more than 75,000 square feet or office/restaurant/retail space, public infrastructure, and associated public space- is estimated to start a little more than two years from now, with project design, approval, zoning and other things needing to fall in place first.
So if everything works out, groundbreaking for Phase 1 would be around Summer 2019. The hotel is also pretty small for a convention center style hotel, so the issue of what to do with the Prime Osborn may still be floating over Jax's head.
I think it definitely will. I think this would help push the consensus towards the old Courthouse site...
The Times-Union mentioned a 500 room hotel in the above article.
That's, by far, the highest number I've seen quoted.
Wonder if that was an error.
I cringe everytime I see the "Jobs Factory" slogan.
Is Gainesville going to start to compete with Jacksonville for convention business?
http://businessmagazinegainesville.com/developer-proposes-conference-center-west-uf/
QuoteAlong with the established Hilton space, the proposed conference center would bring the total square footage of meeting room space in the area to 75,000 square feet — effectively tripling the event space currently offered at the Hilton.
The article says it was written 3 yrs ago?
The student housing behind the Hilton ( Originally The Grove (http://varsityhousegainesville.com/) ) has been open for over a year now, and last time I was in Gainesville the land adjacent to the student housing was for sale.
^My bad. I was reading another article that was more recent about the project at 13th and University. It mentioned that project so I googled it and that was the first article I saw. I didn't see the date. Regardless, the amount of new infrastructure over there is really impressive and development in general in Gainesville has a lot of momentum. I hope the new downtown hotel happens.
The Hyatt has 110,000 square feet of meeting space. If this hotel is built, it's conference center would be much smaller than what the Prime Osborn and Hyatt offer.
Winning bid to be selected tomorrow.
Will the 2019 NCAA Regional Basketball Tourney in Jacksonville affect decision making and time-line related to the Shipyards Development? Or is 2019 too close for anything to be developed?
I don't think the basketball tournament will impact any decisions. I remember going to Nashville over 10 years ago for the NCAA tournament while their massive convention center was being built. Other than diverting traffic, I don't recall many issues.
Scoring documents from the DIA show Khan's plans ranked the highest
Iguana: 85.5
Presidium Group: 66.8
Wess Holdings: 52.0
Hmm.....so Jacksonville doesn't want a space needle or jobs factory....
Let's get this going.
Vicupstate -- my goodness. SMDH.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 18, 2017, 03:38:12 PM
Vicupstate -- my goodness. SMDH.
You care to elaborate?
I said Khan had the inside track from day 1, which probably keep others out, and that the other bids were not realistic. So far, I am batting 1000.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 18, 2017, 04:15:55 PM
You care to elaborate?
This, below, is a laughably absurd take IMHO:
Unless the terms of Khan' s advance are VERY generous, the city would be better off to do the remediation, build a no frills basic 'replacement' for Met Park and then put out a new RFP. There would be a lot less uncertainty and thus more interest. The city could expect much better terms at that point. You keep insisting on pulling non-existent developers out of your ass and insisting they and the city would be better off if your prescription was followed rather than the City going with a billionaire who already has skin in the game. It is just
ridiculous. Take a step back, please. Think.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 18, 2017, 04:40:34 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on April 18, 2017, 04:15:55 PM
You care to elaborate?
This, below, is a laughably absurd take IMHO:
Unless the terms of Khan' s advance are VERY generous, the city would be better off to do the remediation, build a no frills basic 'replacement' for Met Park and then put out a new RFP. There would be a lot less uncertainty and thus more interest. The city could expect much better terms at that point.
You keep insisting on pulling non-existent developers out of your ass and insisting they and the city would be better off if your prescription was followed rather than the City going with a billionaire who already has skin in the game. It is just ridiculous. Take a step back, please. Think.
It not hard dude. If the city has to pay for remediation, before even Khan will touch it, they why not do that first. Anybody knows a 'move in ready' house gets a LOT more buyers looking at it, than one that 'needs work'. The more potential buyers that are kicking the tires, the better offers you will get.
I one of these bidders is willing to chip in on the remediation or take it 'as is', that is something different but that is not the case.
Khan can't do anything with it until the remediation is done ANYWAY. So what would be lost?
^Not technically true.
Once terms are agreed upon and the land swap gets a green light, work could begin in Met Park almost immediately. There's no requirement in these cases that the new greenspace be move-in ready, or even remediated, prior to the closure and development of the existing Met Park.
Even if vicupstate *was* technically accurate, vicupstate would still be wrong. Clearly wrong.
Even if he had to wait until the remediation was completed, another developer would not have the kind of skin in the game that Shad has and, very likely, wouldn't have the same resources either.
This Shipyards / Shad Khan thing isn't a close call, no matter how much some continue to cast aspersions. It's a no-brainer.
Interesting that talk from Lamping has turned from a high-end hotel at Metro Park to high-end mixed hotel/residential.
^^ Probably for the best, I just hope we get this thing rolling.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 18, 2017, 06:10:08 PM
^Not technically true.
Once terms are agreed upon and the land swap gets a green light, work could begin in Met Park almost immediately. There's no requirement in these cases that the new greenspace be move-in ready, or even remediated, prior to the closure and development of the existing Met Park.
So the Feds have said they will allow the park to be developed BEFORE work on the replacement will begin? I could have missed it, but I don't remember seeing that.
If indeed true, the Feds might want to get some background from Tony Sleiman on how the 'promised' Landing parking lot deal went.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 18, 2017, 06:48:33 PM
Even if vicupstate *was* technically accurate, vicupstate would still be wrong. Clearly wrong.
Even if he had to wait until the remediation was completed, another developer would not have the kind of skin in the game that Shad has and, very likely, wouldn't have the same resources either.
This Shipyards / Shad Khan thing isn't a close call, no matter how much some continue to cast aspersions. It's a no-brainer.
The fact that one of the other bidders, which does have development experience, is promising to build/invest TWICE as much as Khan, and is paying $200 mm up front to the city, is not even a consideration?
Khan has a VERY vested interest in the Stadium, but that hasn't keep him from getting huge sweetheart deals from the city. Mark my words, the risk is going to be socialized and the profit privatized on this deal.
Promises, promises, promises Vic. That and a sycophantic news media gets you President Hillary Clinton -- feel me?
As for the feds *trying* to insist on remediation *before* anything happens, I refer you back to that national election for President in November.
Not hap'nin. Deconstruction of the federal administrative state is well underway. Power back to the states is well underway.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 18, 2017, 06:48:33 PM
Even if vicupstate *was* technically accurate, vicupstate would still be wrong. Clearly wrong.
Even if he had to wait until the remediation was completed, another developer would not have the kind of skin in the game that Shad has and, very likely, wouldn't have the same resources either.
This Shipyards / Shad Khan thing isn't a close call, no matter how much some continue to cast aspersions. It's a no-brainer.
It's a no-brainer for you because you're incapable of seeing past Khan. I agree that if the city did its part first and then re-issued the RFP it would likely draw more developers and would get a higher sales price. There are a lot of moving parts in this deal and in a market like Jacksonville that can give a lot of developers some concern. Also, having skin in the game doesn't necessarily make you a more competent developer.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 19, 2017, 09:23:01 AM
Promises, promises, promises Vic. That and a sycophantic news media gets you President Hillary Clinton -- feel me?
As for the feds *trying* to insist on remediation *before* anything happens, I refer you back to that national election for President in November.
Not hap'nin. Deconstruction of the federal administrative state is well underway. Power back to the states is well underway.
Shame on Jacksonville if they surrender Met Park with no binding plan to replace it in short order. If that does indeed happen, it means the public land has been privatized for Khan's benefit. Sounds like a lawyer's dream case to me.
Food for thought.
1. Shad Khan does not live in Jacksonville. He 'lives' in Naples. Wouldn't it be nice if he actually had a home here?
2. Would absolutely would have drawn more interest if the remediation was complete.
3. City of Jacksonville is completely clueless when it comes to their real estate holdings. They should have hired a real firm with international
standing to properly market this piece of real estate. Going local with a 30 day RFP is a joke. 90 days minimum but 6 months would have
been even better.
4. Will still be years before anything viable appears on this parcel because of the COJ poor stewardship of it.
Per the Daily Record, Phase 1 of Khan's Plan:
QuoteDevelopment would start at the area that is now Metro Park:
• 50-100 multi family rental and or residential units
• 200-250 room five-star hotel with restaurant
• Structured parking and amenities
• 75,000 square feet of office space, restaurant and retail
• Public Infrastructure and associated public space
• Relocation of Metro Park further west.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 19, 2017, 09:45:36 AM
Shame on Jacksonville if they surrender Met Park with no binding plan to replace it in short order. If that does indeed happen, it means the public land has been privatized for Khan's benefit. Sounds like a lawyer's dream case to me.
The Ordinance Code requires no net loss in property owned by the Parks Department.
Quote from: MusicMan on April 19, 2017, 10:11:49 AM
Food for thought.
1. Shad Khan does not live in Jacksonville. He 'lives' in Naples. Wouldn't it be nice if he actually had a home here?
2. Would absolutely would have drawn more interest if the remediation was complete.
3. City of Jacksonville is completely clueless when it comes to their real estate holdings. They should have hired a real firm with international
standing to properly market this piece of real estate. Going local with a 30 day RFP is a joke. 90 days minimum but 6 months would have
been even better.
4. Will still be years before anything viable appears on this parcel because of the COJ poor stewardship of it.
1. So, Khan has hundreds of millions invested in Jacksonville, but should be impugned because he does not live here? Meanwhile, you are advocating a more global marketing approach fro the property. Which one is it?
2. A creative developer may be able to receive significant reimbursement of remediation costs for development of this site under the state's brownfield program. Remediating the property without any sort of site plan in place would make no sense strategically or economically.
3. Not sure that would have mattered or would have been beneficial to the area.
4. How exactly has COJ been a poor steward of this property?
1. Just noting he doesn't live here. How many NFL franchise owners don't live within 300 miles of their teams stadium?
2 + 3 = Statistics show that properties considered "shovel ready" sell faster and at a higher price than those needing serious remediation.
You can ignore that all you want, it won't alter the facts. The need for remediation only benefits the Buyer in this situ, not the Seller.
4. How long has it been vacant 'aka' in it's current state? A damn long time. COJ has done nothing except cut the grass. And now they are
practically giving it away. I guess in their opinion it's a worthless POS. That's how they've treated it. $90 million on scoreboards, zero on
this parcel..................
First, the city Holds title because it foreclosed on the property. Under CERCLA, it maintains a secured creditor exemption from CERCLA liability provided that it meets certain criteria. Once the City begins dabbling in assessment and remediation, it runs the risk of nullifying that exemption.
In addition, the scope of the remediation depends completely upon the future use of the property. The City could spend $30M on cleanup when only $10M was necessary based on the proposed redevelopment.
Of course shovel ready projects sell for a higher price - you've put money into the project already. Great stat!
All these urban core experts. SMDH. Yeah, I'm blind. Look in the mirror, please.
One has to work extremely hard, from a very biased position, to not see the tremendous plus this is for Jacksonville. To not see how incredibly fortunate we are the St. Louis Rams *weren't* sold to Shad and, as a result, he kinda-sorta fell in our lap. Without that occurrence, it's very likely all of you urban core Jacksonville experts in the bitch-and-moan brigade would be pontificating -- with your presumably massive bankroll sitting on the sidelines -- about the only thing needed for that property to take off is X, Y, and Z. And, of course, dismissing actual skin in the game as some sort of theoretical positive.
And the presumption that no knowledgeable city officials are involved in the negotiations about to take place? Damn. Wasn't there damn near universal praise of Mousa rejoining city government almost two years ago? Now he's an idiot ? ? ?
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 20, 2017, 08:35:42 AM
All these urban core experts. SMDH. Yeah, I'm blind. Look in the mirror, please.
One has to work extremely hard, from a very biased position, to not see the tremendous plus this is for Jacksonville. To not see how incredibly fortunate we are the St. Louis Rams *weren't* sold to Shad and, as a result, he kinda-sorta fell in our lap. Without that occurrence, it's very likely all of you urban core Jacksonville experts in the bitch-and-moan brigade would be pontificating -- with your presumably massive bankroll sitting on the sidelines -- about the only thing needed for that property to take off is X, Y, and Z. And, of course, dismissing actual skin in the game as some sort of theoretical positive.
And the presumption that no knowledgeable city officials are involved in the negotiations about to take place? Damn. Wasn't there damn near universal praise of Mousa rejoining city government almost two years ago? Now he's an idiot ? ? ?
+1000000000
Well according to the "well informed" industry folks blogging here every potential developer in North America and beyond saw this RFP and 3 bids came in. Draw your own conclusions.
I'm still waiting on a Starbucks return to downtown for what it's worth.
Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean . . . golly gee -- if only they had spent thousands and thousands more dollars trying to convince some corporation somewhere that this hidden gem of a property, sitting in plain sight for decades on the St. Johns River with probably around 200,000 daily vehicle traffic passing right by it on the road from New York to Miami was up for a major redevelopment bid AGAIN !!! Then, maybe, there would have been more respondents.
Ridiculous.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 20, 2017, 01:00:18 PM
Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean . . . golly gee -- if only they had spent thousands and thousands more dollars trying to convince some corporation somewhere that this hidden gem of a property, sitting in plain sight for decades on the St. Johns River with probably around 200,000 daily vehicle traffic passing right by it on the road from New York to Miami was up for a major redevelopment bid AGAIN !!! Then, maybe, there would have been more respondents.
Ridiculous.
You honestly don't think that if there was no insider favorite and no remediation needed, that there would not be more bidders? you are kidding yourself.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 20, 2017, 08:39:36 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 20, 2017, 08:35:42 AM
All these urban core experts. SMDH. Yeah, I'm blind. Look in the mirror, please.
One has to work extremely hard, from a very biased position, to not see the tremendous plus this is for Jacksonville. To not see how incredibly fortunate we are the St. Louis Rams *weren't* sold to Shad and, as a result, he kinda-sorta fell in our lap. Without that occurrence, it's very likely all of you urban core Jacksonville experts in the bitch-and-moan brigade would be pontificating -- with your presumably massive bankroll sitting on the sidelines -- about the only thing needed for that property to take off is X, Y, and Z. And, of course, dismissing actual skin in the game as some sort of theoretical positive.
And the presumption that no knowledgeable city officials are involved in the negotiations about to take place? Damn. Wasn't there damn near universal praise of Mousa rejoining city government almost two years ago? Now he's an idiot ? ? ?
+1000000000
Fukin awesome!
Rattler Gator, since you are the expert, what comes first? A winning season by the Jags or a finished product on The Shipyards?
Shad Khan has made a billion dollars (in equity) without ever fielding a winning team.
He's playing everybody ........................ 17-63 over 5 years.
And I'm a season ticket holder..........SMDH
Haha. That's a difficult question MusicMan. I'll put my money on the team stumbling into a 9-7 season first.
Quote from: MusicMan on April 20, 2017, 10:32:54 PM
Rattler Gator, since you are the expert, what comes first? A winning season by the Jags or a finished product on The Shipyards?
Shad Khan has made a billion dollars (in equity) without ever fielding a winning team.
He's playing everybody ........................ 17-63 over 5 years.
And I'm a season ticket holder..........SMDH
Khan has taken what was a franchise on the brink to a franchise that is the envy of many in the league. Thanks to NFL revenue sharing, the win/loss record has been totally disconnected from franchise value for a long time. Without Khan, it's very likely the Jaguars would be losing in another city. And whoever bought the team would have made even more in equity by moving the team to Los Angeles/Vegas.
Instead, the Jaguars are here, their future looks bright, we get an amphitheater, and a billionaire with a vested interest in making something happen with the shipyards.
In the universe some seem to prefer, the city would simply pay to remediate the contaminated shipyards which is now not only located across the street from a jail, but also a vacant and crumbling Jacksonville Municipal Stadium. Somebody please explain to me how the city gets a better deal in that scenario.
"Khan has taken what was a franchise on the brink to a franchise that is the envy of many in the league."
In a parallel universe.
"Instead, the Jaguars are here, their future looks bright,"
Every analyst on 92.5 FM predicted a losing season next year, and perhaps catastrophic if we start poorly.
"we get an amphitheater"
Neat.
That being said I am recruiting my old high school buddies from out of town for the December 10 matchup with the Seahawks.
So, MusicMan, if Blake had not regressed last season and we challenged but failed to make the playoffs -- you'd feel differently about Shad Khan's investment in downtown Jax? Is that what you expect me to believe?
The incredible frustration with our team, I share it. However, that is a clearly separate issue. As is the crazy insistence to view Shad Khan through the lens of what has occurred in downtown Jax prior to his arrival. If you're a slave to our prior history, you might want to sit down and think for a minute and then cast off those shackles.
In a statement issued after the authority's unanimous vote, Khan said, "I'd like to think no one believes in the potential of Jacksonville as much as I do"
MusicMan, it's high time you started believing this businessman. He has seen that we're a diamond in the rough and he has also seen that he can make serious money here OFF THE FOOTBALL FIELD because of that fact. Where others can only see us through a lens blurred by our past (still looking at you, Ennis!), Shad is not shackled by that foolishness.
And we are extremely fortunate for that fact at this particular point in our history. [1] A President of the United States who is quite appropriately *not* embarrassed by the namesake of our city, [2] and a can-do colored bwah bound and determined to make some shiznit happen in a town with an oversupply of members in the Bitch-and-Moan Brigade. My, my, my.
Bold New City of the South, indeed. Bold New City of Florida, too.
I really like Shad Khan. I don't think I've ever disrespected him on this blog. And I won't. But I do temper my comments with my perspective and a healthy dose of reality.
I am damn Season Ticket Holder RG. I've stated over and over how much I love the stadium experience here. I think you sense my frustration with the COJ as a whole, and having lived in Miami, Coral Gables, South Beach, Boca Raton, Tallahassee, and worked in every major metropolitan area in The US ( as a touring theatrical musical performer) I know what great cities look like. Ours is a city of promises just out of reach. Even today there is so much under utilized potential here I can't stand it. But I believe the folks who can weather the storm will be richly rewarded. Hopefully both of us as well.
Quote from: MusicMan on April 24, 2017, 06:36:50 PM
Even today there is so much under utilized potential here I can't stand it. But I believe the folks who can weather the storm will be richly rewarded. Hopefully both of us as well.
Agreed.
This is the thing, however. We want so much for our town, we see so much potential, that in the face of the unrealized reality we get understandably exasperated.
I think the sports and entertainment district is going to be a huge success and we'll soon look back on this year as the start of the Jacksonville Decade. But with the big, beautiful Saint Johns slicing right through the heart of our city -- density as traditionally understood by the urban core crowd is never going to be our thing (Joel Kotkin has written about this). Linear *is* our thing, whether following either side of the river or out at the beach. And Shad's project fits this reality (as does, theoretically, Healthy Town).
This is a time for tremendous optimism in Big Duval.
Learned today that the first phase of Khan's project (the hotel) is contingent on the Hart Bridge viaduct being torn down first. So if anyone wonders about the development timeline for the Shipyards, don't expect much as long as the Hart Bridge ramps are still standing.
^I wonder if this is what Iguana was referring to in its proposal in terms of loaning the city money for upfront infrastructure work.
I'm not sure but the bridge is a state highway.
^And the state is ready to commit approximately $0 to tearing down those ramps. Expect to see this project around the time the San Marco Publix wraps up.
Once again, pay attention to the President's trillion dollar infrastructure plan that will rely upon public-private partnerships that Florida is quite experienced with.
Just a hunch, but we shall see.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-begins-map-1-trillion-223000523.html
President Donald Trump pushed his White House team on Wednesday to craft a plan for $1 trillion in infrastructure spending that would pressure states to streamline local permitting, favor renovation of existing roads and highways over new construction and prioritize projects that can quickly begin construction.
Sounds like taking down the Hart Bridge ramps to me. But if you're predisposed to underestimating this President, maybe not.
Quote from: RattlerGator on May 09, 2017, 08:11:58 AM
Once again, pay attention to the President's trillion dollar infrastructure plan that will rely upon public-private partnerships that Florida is quite experienced with.
Just a hunch, but we shall see.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-begins-map-1-trillion-223000523.html
President Donald Trump pushed his White House team on Wednesday to craft a plan for $1 trillion in infrastructure spending that would pressure states to streamline local permitting, favor renovation of existing roads and highways over new construction and prioritize projects that can quickly begin construction.
Sounds like taking down the Hart Bridge ramps to me. But if you're predisposed to underestimating this President, maybe not.
He also planned to ban Muslims from entering the USA. How did that work out?
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/muslim-ban-comments-deleted-trump-website-minutes-reporter-brings-080205263.html
QuoteDonald Trump's pledge to impose a "Muslim ban" has been quietly removed from his campaign website minutes after a reporter challenged the controversial policy. During a briefing with beleaguered press secretary Sean Spicer, ABC's Cecilia Vega asked why the president's campaign page still calls for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States."
Donald Trump says a lot of things. We'll see what happens with the Hart Bridge ramps. I doubt that douche has ever even heard of the Hart Bridge anyway.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 08, 2017, 11:03:43 PM
^And the state is ready to commit approximately $0 to tearing down those ramps. Expect to see this project around the time the San Marco Publix wraps up.
Berkman Plaza II wants to race.
Looks like Curry's going to make a hard push for this:
QuoteRemoval of Hart ramp leads city road priorities
Removal of the Hart Bridge ramp Downtown leads City Council's list of road project priorities.
Taking down the Northbank ramp also happens to be a key component of Shad Khan's plan to redevelop the Shipyards property.
Through Ordinance 2017-368, council has introduced its list of road project priorities for the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization.
The list represents the city's top requests for federal and state transportation funding during the next year's budget cycle.
Removing a stretch of elevated expressway extending into Downtown from the Hart Bridge is at the top.
The project would remove the current expressway ramp, grading it down onto Gator Bowl Boulevard from the Hart Bridge to A. Philip Randolph Boulevard.
On April 18, the Downtown Investment Authority approved Khan and his Iguana Investments of Florida group to redevelop the 70-acre riverfront site from Metropolitan Park to the former Shipyards site.
The first phase of the more than $500 million project would develop the area of Metro Park, across the street from EverBank Field.
The road has been blamed for traffic jams during large events.
In November, Mayor Lenny Curry informally asked the Duval Legislative Delegation for the state to provide $50 million to remove the ramp, citing safety and development concerns...
Full story: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=549877
Hmmm.
He can push all he wants, but nothing is going to budge. There still won't be any money coming from the state, the state that won't even give St. Augustine money for much needed drainage fixes. And its not like the COJ just has $50 million lying around not allocated.
To be honest, I can't blame the State if nothing materializes within the next year. It's not like $50 million will pop out of thin air to tear down a structurally sound structure just because Curry and Khan want so. If this is Jax's top priority, we ought to treat it like one.
Some other communities have advanced projects by taking the money already allocated to other area projects. We could look at killing or delaying another Jax area road project, thus freeing up its allocated money to go towards the Hart Bridge priority.
Quote from: Adam White on May 09, 2017, 08:27:23 AM
Donald Trump says a lot of things. We'll see what happens with the Hart Bridge ramps. I doubt that douche has ever even heard of the Hart Bridge anyway.
Good gracious alive, Adam -- you're smarter than that. The President wouldn't need to have ever heard of Jacksonville, Florida. Although he certainly has, and is probably familiar with the Hart Bridge too.
He's a builder, remember? And smarter than either of us.
Whether he's heard of the Hart Bridge is irrelevant, local and state officials have.
The infrastructure plan will be driven by them, the prime-the-pump money and the request for streamlining of regulations will come from the federal government as a condition to get the money.
Thank goodness the Mayor isn't sitting around with his thumb up his azz when it comes to this bridge project. Plan for it, push for it, be ready when and if something suddenly is available.
Quote from: RattlerGator on May 18, 2017, 07:44:36 AM
He's a builder, remember? And smarter than either of us.
It's sad that you think that little of yourself.
Quote from: RattlerGator on May 18, 2017, 07:44:36 AM
Quote from: Adam White on May 09, 2017, 08:27:23 AM
Donald Trump says a lot of things. We'll see what happens with the Hart Bridge ramps. I doubt that douche has ever even heard of the Hart Bridge anyway.
Good gracious alive, Adam -- you're smarter than that. The President wouldn't need to have ever heard of Jacksonville, Florida. Although he certainly has, and is probably familiar with the Hart Bridge too.
He's a builder, remember? And smarter than either of us.
Whether he's heard of the Hart Bridge is irrelevant, local and state officials have. The infrastructure plan will be driven by them, the prime-the-pump money and the request for streamlining of regulations will come from the federal government as a condition to get the money.
Thank goodness the Mayor isn't sitting around with his thumb up his azz when it comes to this bridge project. Plan for it, push for it, be ready when and if something suddenly is available.
To be honest, I would say do not look to the Federal Government for help with infrastructure until at least President Hatch is sworn in......
To be honest, I do enjoy the nattering nabobs of negativism on the board. It helps to explain Shad Khan's comments about what he found when he arrived here.
Quote from: Westside Guy on May 17, 2017, 07:34:45 PM
He can push all he wants, but nothing is going to budge. There still won't be any money coming from the state, the state that won't even give St. Augustine money for much needed drainage fixes. And its not like the COJ just has $50 million lying around not allocated.
This is correct. The city doesn't have the money and the state, even if it has it, is not in the habit of giving out tens of millions of dollars for currently working infrastructure to newbie delegations. It's disappointing that the redevelopment of the Shipyards is being tied to the bridges coming down; whether or not it's a great idea, as it may be quite some time before the money is there.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 18, 2017, 10:59:46 AM
Quote from: Westside Guy on May 17, 2017, 07:34:45 PM
He can push all he wants, but nothing is going to budge. There still won't be any money coming from the state, the state that won't even give St. Augustine money for much needed drainage fixes. And its not like the COJ just has $50 million lying around not allocated.
This is correct. The city doesn't have the money and the state, even if it has it, is not in the habit of giving out tens of millions of dollars for currently working infrastructure to newbie delegations. It's disappointing that the redevelopment of the Shipyards is being tied to the bridges coming down; whether or not it's a great idea, as it may be quite some time before the money is there.
1) I don't think it is completely tied to it. Moving Metro Park and Khan building some sort of hotel eventually will happen one way or another. I think they would prefer to see it done simultaneously with the expressway coming down.
2) Curry, himself, and Khan are the major players to get this done. Don't be surprised if Khan is donating to Let's Get to Work for Governor Scott's Senate run and Curry is pulling out his stops with the good will and influence he has gotten through the years. Curry is, by far, the most influential mayor with State Government today (If Rick Baker were to win in St. Pete, he would be right up there). Anyway, if the Mayor makes it a big priority, they can get it done but it would be nice if the Duval Delegation were to gain some more clout this upcoming year.
Quote from: FlaBoy on May 18, 2017, 04:18:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 18, 2017, 10:59:46 AM
Quote from: Westside Guy on May 17, 2017, 07:34:45 PM
He can push all he wants, but nothing is going to budge. There still won't be any money coming from the state, the state that won't even give St. Augustine money for much needed drainage fixes. And its not like the COJ just has $50 million lying around not allocated.
This is correct. The city doesn't have the money and the state, even if it has it, is not in the habit of giving out tens of millions of dollars for currently working infrastructure to newbie delegations. It's disappointing that the redevelopment of the Shipyards is being tied to the bridges coming down; whether or not it's a great idea, as it may be quite some time before the money is there.
1) I don't think it is completely tied to it. Moving Metro Park and Khan building some sort of hotel eventually will happen one way or another. I think they would prefer to see it done simultaneously with the expressway coming down.
2) Curry, himself, and Khan are the major players to get this done. Don't be surprised if Khan is donating to Let's Get to Work for Governor Scott's Senate run and Curry is pulling out his stops with the good will and influence he has gotten through the years. Curry is, by far, the most influential mayor with State Government today (If Rick Baker were to win in St. Pete, he would be right up there). Anyway, if the Mayor makes it a big priority, they can get it done but it would be nice if the Duval Delegation were to gain some more clout this upcoming year.
A few days ago, Thelakelander said this:
Quote from: thelakelander on May 08, 2017, 08:07:47 PM
Learned today that the first phase of Khan's project (the hotel) is contingent on the Hart Bridge viaduct being torn down first. So if anyone wonders about the development timeline for the Shipyards, don't expect much as long as the Hart Bridge ramps are still standing.
As far as getting the money goes, there are a lot of hoops to jump through, and a lot of worthy (and unworthy) projects competing for the same pot. Curry may be a big deal in Tally, but the Duval Delegation is not, and we also have a number of other big asks for the state coming up.
I forget what the term for it is, but I remember hearing about special development districts (or something term like that) that focus property tax revenue in the district that it comes from. Couldn't something like that be used to payoff bonds that could be used for the demolition of the ramps in conjunction with state money in an amount discounted by the remaining useful life of the ramps?
Didn't Khan/Lamping say they would front the money to get this started and allow the city to pay them back?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 17, 2017, 09:21:03 PM
To be honest, I can't blame the State if nothing materializes within the next year. It's not like $50 million will pop out of thin air to tear down a structurally sound structure just because Curry and Khan want so. If this is Jax's top priority, we ought to treat it like one.
Some other communities have advanced projects by taking the money already allocated to other area projects. We could look at killing or delaying another Jax area road project, thus freeing up its allocated money to go towards the Hart Bridge priority.
Ennis, isn't the first step in treating it as *the* top priority officially designating it as such?
Why are we being dense about this Hart Bridge project?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-19/trump-budget-said-to-include-200-billion-for-infrastructure
Do you honestly think Shad Khan isn't on top of this? Hasn't had discussions with the Mayor about this? The Governor? Hell,
the freaking President !?!Wake the hell up, please.
It's actually okay, you know, to contemplate this happening. Isn't that part of what happens on a site interested in the development of the urban core? Can't the ideas the President is obviously espousing be objectively considered from the vantage point of how they could
seriously help Jacksonville? Given that, you know,
they already have!?! It's precisely because we have a billionaire NFL owner interested in the development of our downtown, especially a sports and entertainment district that he has played a major part in revitalizng, that the President's Public-Private initiative is so intriguing.
There is not need to keep delaying the process. Let Shad develop the whole area. He has the money and a personal interest is seeing it succeed. Anyone else is just going to take what ever money they can get out of the state and city and then run. Burkman Plaza II is a perfect example.
My information on the phasing situation came from Councilwoman Boyer, so take it for what it's worth. I personally believe she's as credible as anyone in Jax. Also, Rattlergator, you must love bathing in kool aid. Nothing Trump does is going to result in $50 million to tear down the Hart Bridge ramp overnight. Be careful, too much sugar leads to diabetes.
^Bahahaha
Quote from: RattlerGator on May 19, 2017, 09:06:29 AM
Do you honestly think Shad Khan isn't on top of this? Hasn't had discussions with the Mayor about this? The Governor? Hell, the freaking President !?!
Wake the hell up, please.
RG, do you have any evidence that a) Shahid Khan met with Donald Trump and b) he discussed this project when he did? Because if you don't, you're in no position to tell other people to "wake the hell up". You're speculating as much as anyone else - more, actually.
I know you love The Donald and Shahid Khan, but creating a conspiracy out of whole cloth is a bit over the top.
Is there a phased way to do this so we don't have to get $50 million in one single session for FDOT? Like, could the rebuild of the ramp onto the Bridge and the demolition up to Intuition there be Phase 1 and the entrance ramp to the remainder the previous expressway that they desire to turn into a park be Phase 2?
What is the status of the mobility fee in all of this?
Could Rattler Gator be onto something ;)
Quote
Lenny Curry heads to D.C., reportedly will meet with Donald Trump
A.G. GANCARSKI
20 hours ago
As President Donald Trump flew out of Washington D.C. Wednesday morning, Jacksonville Mayor Lenny Curry prepared to fly in.
Curry has time blocked out Wednesday afternoon for meetings. And on Thursday, Tweeted Alex Leary, an "infrastructure 'listening session'" with Pres. Trump.
The Mayor's City Hall communications team offered scant detail when asked earlier Thursday about Curry's trip.
"The mayor will be participating in meetings on the hill and with the administration to discuss Jacksonville needs," wrote spokeswoman Marsha Oliver in an email.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/239602-lenny-curry-heads-d-c-white-house-hill-meetings
Adam has a weird understanding of conspiracies, unfortunately.
In my very biased opinion you'd have to be either an idiot or a political partisan to not understand the rather obvious prudence involved in informal discussions among Republicans on this infrastructure score.
Prudence, not conspiracies.
And last I checked, Shad is a Republican -- right? Lenny, too, correct? And my goodness, Susie Wiles is a Jacksonville chick, correct? All she did was run Trump's Florida campaign. You honestly think she's talked to no one about The Shipyards project and our infrastructure needs?
Political partisanship has blinded more than a few to Donald Trump. A.O.K. by me because neither it nor James Comey is likely to stop this train. Certain elements of the MetroJacksonville crowd, similar to their weird pot-shots at the Daily's Place Amphitheater project, can get on board and embrace the possibilities or . . . keep waxing eloquently about the wonders of, oh, Greenville CackyLacky for instance. Makes me no nevermind, as us folks used to say back in the day.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 08, 2017, 12:34:26 PM
Could Rattler Gator be onto something ;)
Quote
Lenny Curry heads to D.C., reportedly will meet with Donald Trump
A.G. GANCARSKI
20 hours ago
As President Donald Trump flew out of Washington D.C. Wednesday morning, Jacksonville Mayor Lenny Curry prepared to fly in.
Curry has time blocked out Wednesday afternoon for meetings. And on Thursday, Tweeted Alex Leary, an "infrastructure 'listening session'" with Pres. Trump.
The Mayor's City Hall communications team offered scant detail when asked earlier Thursday about Curry's trip.
"The mayor will be participating in meetings on the hill and with the administration to discuss Jacksonville needs," wrote spokeswoman Marsha Oliver in an email.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/239602-lenny-curry-heads-d-c-white-house-hill-meetings
Picture on his twitter of him meeting with Elaine Chao, Secretary of Transportation. Hmmmm
and Marty Fiorentino was in DC for several months helping Secretary Chao get set up.
That said, as MSNBC's Brian Williams asked Chuck Todd yesterday, "How is President Trump's Infrastructure Week going?" :)
Well, that's the Mayor. And it just happened or is happening.
But saying that Shahid Khan would've been discussing this stuff with the Trump administration (or Trump himself, actually) without evidence to support it is just rank speculation.
I get it: RG likes the Jaguars (and LOVES Khan) and RG likes Donald Trump. So OF COURSE they would be in cahoots. It just makes sense!
That's practically magical* thinking.
*not intended as a reference to the lame 90s Sandra Bullock movie, Practical Magic.
So, Adam, your preference is to not speculate until some media outlet has speculated on the subject? Or some public relations person has planted the story?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/6f/e7/43/6fe74393320401d9dcf9f298c7f41181.jpg)
Ohhhhh - tay !!!
Can anyone with a JBJ subscription summarize:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/09/01/as-redevelopment-efforts-for-met-park-shipyards.html
Is there new evidence that Met Park might need major remediation as well?
^No new evidence they are just citing the numerous instances of historical concern. Overall point of the article was that Iguana's proposal shifts much of the major development from the Shipyards site to Metro Park because of the contamination concerns, but that whether or not the same concerns would be found in Met Park or not has not been thoroughly or recently investigated.
QuoteThe first letter from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency showed that during a site inspection in 1990 EPA officials discovered "remnants of drums" and "hardened black sludge." A city officials with solid waste told the EPA that the area was "used for disposal of industrial wastes."
The inspection was after a 1985 site inspection where EPA officials noted elevated levels of lead in a groundwater sample and in three subsurface soil samples.
The site inspection from 1990 discovered a moderate quantity of pollution greater than one acre in size, but less than 10.
The wastes were described as metals, halogenated hydrocarbons, pesticides, oil and construction debris.
^Thanks! Much appreciated!!!
Must be why Iguana was pushing so hard to get onsite and start testing groundwater.
Per this week's Daily Record, Mark Lamping is now saying that the Shipyards development isn't contingent on the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps.
He said something to the effect of the Shipyards not fully reaching its potential unless the ramps are removed, but also saying that the Jaguars weren't going to let a lack of removal prevent them from developing a "lesser" version of their ideal plan.
did he mention what year he had in mind for commencing the project?