http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548780
Mixed use?
Forgive me if this topic has been discussed before, but why on earth was the jail ever planned/approved to be built where it is? That has to be one of the biggest blunders in downtown history and I know there are many! The Maxwell plant aside, it hinders so many possibilities in that area of the core.
Quote from: pears045 on November 22, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
Forgive me if this topic has been discussed before, but why on earth was the jail ever planned/approved to be built where it is? That has to be one of the biggest blunders in downtown history and I know there are many! The Maxwell plant aside, it hinders so many possibilities in that area of the core.
When was it built?
When was it built?
[/quote]
1991
Quote from: pears045 on November 22, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
Forgive me if this topic has been discussed before, but why on earth was the jail ever planned/approved to be built where it is?
Things were different in 1991. Our county jail system was so overcrowded that the federal government was monitoring it and the prisoners perceived to be the least dangerous were simply released into the streets each day to make room for others. When the time came to build a new jail, the decision was made to simply build it directly behind police headquarters. Wasn't uncommon to see government buildings clustered on the river back then, and the new courthouse was expected to be built next to the police headquarters and jail as well.
I don't think people even thought anything of until Shipyards redevelopment was proposed in the early 2000s.
The pretrial detention component of the facility is what keeps the jail tied to downtown. Around 500 prisoners a day are moved between pretrial detention and the courthouse, which is why many cities have their jails so close to their courthouses. There were talks of including a 48-hour pretrial detention facility at the new courthouse, allowing the jail to be moved anywhere in the county when it reached end-of-life, but that idea never came to fruition.
That said, I don't know if closing, razing, and relocating the jail would be the worth the $100 million+ price tag the project would command. At least not at this time. It's not really that much of an eyesore, the sheer density of police in the area kind of offsets any perceived safety issues, and it wouldn't be hard to develop the Shipyards property in a way that keeps the prison somewhat hidden from site.
Quote from: pears045 on November 22, 2016, 12:12:47 PM
Forgive me if this topic has been discussed before, but why on earth was the jail ever planned/approved to be built where it is? That has to be one of the biggest blunders in downtown history and I know there are many! The Maxwell plant aside, it hinders so many possibilities in that area of the core.
I don't think it hinders things that much, the biggest eyesore associated with the jail is all the bondsmen offices. I would think more people come in and out of the Sulzbacher Center on a daily basis than the jail. I don't hear of many crimes committed by inmates just released from the jail. The Berkman II is more of a nuisance.
What do you mean, the Maxwell plant aside? Maxwell House has been one of the few companies that never abandoned downtown. They've been there forever and there should be no suggestion that they are somehow hindering progress downtown.
It's a little odd to have the jail right there, but given how many strange choices have been made regarding riverfront property over the decades, it's not that unusual. I think Jacksonville riverfront property has not always had the high value that some people perceive it to have today. (Based on selling my own house recently and the drawn-out listings of some San Marco homes, I STILL don't think it has the high value some people think it should have.)
Quote from: Bativac on November 22, 2016, 02:20:55 PM
What do you mean, the Maxwell plant aside? Maxwell House has been one of the few companies that never abandoned downtown. They've been there forever and there should be no suggestion that they are somehow hindering progress downtown.
It's a little odd to have the jail right there, but given how many strange choices have been made regarding riverfront property over the decades, it's not that unusual. I think Jacksonville riverfront property has not always had the high value that some people perceive it to have today. (Based on selling my own house recently and the drawn-out listings of some San Marco homes, I STILL don't think it has the high value some people think it should have.)
Even though I find their coffee nearly unpalatable, I totally agree. To me, that Maxwell House plant is one of the coolest things on the river, and one of the few waterfront features that is uniquely Jacksonville. Love the industrial, vaguely steampunk look of the building. Love the signage. Love the smell. Though last I heard Maxwell House had no interest, I really do like the idea of tours and a sidewalk cafe once the area starts to develop.
I don't see the jail's location as odd. When it was built, that entire district was heavy industry and downtown was considered to be too the west of it. Crazy thing is, if you go outside of Jax, you'll find tons of jails on urban waterfronts, due to waterfronts once being a place of industry and trade, as opposed to recreation and luxury living. Here's two examples:
Houston
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-wB88LkB/0/L/20160513_160725-L.jpg)
Harris County Jail on Buffalo Bayou in downtown Houston
Fort Lauderdale
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Fort-Lauderdale-March-2011/P1450013/1215525397_cgoNj-M.jpg)
New River in downtown Fort Lauderdale with Broward County Jail in background center of the site.
As for Maxwell House, they aren't hindering anything. If redevelopment can take place around Baltimore's Domino Sugar, it can happen near Maxwell House:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-T4BB8k5/0/L/DSCF9924-L.jpg)
Domino Sugar sits in the background of this Inner Harbor photo
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-BkHMTL3/0/L/DSCF9922-L.jpg)
Domino Sugar zoomed in
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-KvbGjdB/0/L/DSCF9988-L.jpg)
At a waterfront park next door to Domino
Quote from: thelakelander on November 22, 2016, 02:51:18 PM
Houston
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-wB88LkB/0/L/20160513_160725-L.jpg)
Harris County Jail on Buffalo Bayou in downtown Houston
Those views.
Love the Yelp reviews:
https://www.yelp.com/biz/harris-county-sheriffs-office-701-jail-houston
REALLY interesting history too.
Quote701 Jail
The 701 Jail (located at 701 North San Jacinto Street) is one of the largest detention facilities in the United States.[3] The seven floor 701 Jail has 4,144 inmate beds. The 701 Jail, originally a five-story building to be used as a cold storage warehouse,[4] opened in the late 1920s. The Houston Terminal Warehouse and Cold Storage Facility was constantly occupied throughout its history. In 1989 the county completed the planning and design stage of its new jail. The cold storage portion was allowed to thaw, and construction on the facility began in December of that year.[3] The facility was gutted and two floors were added.[4] The 701 Jail opened in August 1991.[3] Harris County stated that the re-use of the warehouse saved the county about $21,000,000. About 600 sheriff's deputies and detention officers work in the facility. The county designates the 701 Jail as a "Direct Observation" facility, where staff members monitor inmates continuously for 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.[4] In 2002 the 701 Jail was the second largest American jail, with the Los Angeles County Men's Central Jail of the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department being the largest.[5]
Here's a few pictures from its surroundings....
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-P6B6V6d/0/L/20160513_160937-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-4ChC8Qt/0/L/20160513_162206-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-LxJscwk/0/L/20160513_163731-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-GspHtjD/0/L/20160513_164909-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-98SrJzS/0/L/20160513_165229-L.jpg)
That jail though is very easy on the eyes, unlike the one in Jacksonville, I think most people just ignore it though.
Teh jail is an eyesore and it is pretty obvious what it is, the Houston on, not so much. But worse than the appearance is the fact it is a large dead zone right on Bay Street and together with Maxwell House, creates a long a hell block of disconnection between the Stadium district and the Elbow/ Landing area.
Unfortunately, it's always going to be cut off as long as the bridge ramps and the contaminated former railyard under them remain.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Photography/State-Archives-Downtown-Jax/i-RdwKXgp/0/X2/rf00041-X2.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/History/Jacksonville-1970s-Blight/i-4VrMNZ6/0/X2/IMG_20150425_165601-X2.jpg)
For the majority of the city's history, it's been what we'd consider a superblock. IMO, the Northbank core and the stadium area will always been separate nodes of activities. We'll just have to get creative in finding and implementing long term solutions to better bridge the gap.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/history/downtown-waterfront-history/merrill-stevens-1946.jpg)
In this image, you can see what the jail and JSO office took out. The two multi-story warehouses in the middle/right of the image, make up the west and east ends of the main Maxwell House plant.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 22, 2016, 02:40:52 PM
Quote from: Bativac on November 22, 2016, 02:20:55 PM
What do you mean, the Maxwell plant aside? Maxwell House has been one of the few companies that never abandoned downtown. They've been there forever and there should be no suggestion that they are somehow hindering progress downtown.
It's a little odd to have the jail right there, but given how many strange choices have been made regarding riverfront property over the decades, it's not that unusual. I think Jacksonville riverfront property has not always had the high value that some people perceive it to have today. (Based on selling my own house recently and the drawn-out listings of some San Marco homes, I STILL don't think it has the high value some people think it should have.)
Even though I find their coffee nearly unpalatable, I totally agree. To me, that Maxwell House plant is one of the coolest things on the river, and one of the few waterfront features that is uniquely Jacksonville. Love the industrial, vaguely steampunk look of the building. Love the signage. Love the smell. Though last I heard Maxwell House had no interest, I really do like the idea of tours and a sidewalk cafe once the area starts to develop.
Their coffee is truly awful but the factory is still a great asset for downtown Jax. And the smell! So much better than a paper mill.
As for tours, a friend of mine works for Winn Dixie and toured the facility. He said it really isn't "visitor friendly." A lot of it was built to sort of retrofit into the old building, so it's not an easy place to get around. Not like Sweet Pete's or the Budweiser brewery.
The problem with jail and police headquarters is the Soviet-style brutalist architecture. Lots of old jails with decent architecture can be an asset. Alas, cities only build cheap crap now. Back in the day cities had style, class, and pride. Just check out Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia - it is a whole former prison in the middle of the city and is crazy cool.
The Police Administration Building was designed by William Morgan. He was viewed as influential as H.J. Klutho was in his day. The building, with its roof top gardens, was seen as cutting edge back during the mid-1970s.
http://jacksonville.com/slideshow/2016-03-27/vintage-jacksonville-police-headquarters-buildings#slide-1
(http://storage.filemobile.com/storage/25527706/1508)
(http://storage.filemobile.com/storage/25527726/1508)
(http://storage.filemobile.com/storage/25527728/1508)
(http://storage.filemobile.com/storage/25527716/1508)
QuotePolice Administration Building: Located in Jacksonville, Florida, this Roche and Dickenloo inspired building draws inspiration from the Oakland Museum in California. A complex yet rhythmic interplay of stepped profiles in deeply-banded gray and white concrete make up the breezeways and courtyards of this stately, modernist structure, complete with rooftop gardens. And while built for the purposes of housing law-enforcement activities, the built environment serves dually as a well-organized, civic venue for impromptu outdoor activities with ample seating to be used for informal meetings, study areas, picnicking and/or play spaces for kids. Design/Completion 1971-1975
https://modernmorgan.wordpress.com/
Looking at the Oakland Museum, that building would look completely different from now if the roof garden would have been allowed to grow, instead of it being shut down to the public and having its trees and water features ripped out....
(http://thelocalhub.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Oakland_Museum-7_aerial.jpg)
(http://tclf.org/sites/default/files/microsites/kiley-legacy/assets/Oakland/historic3.jpg)
(https://a.travel-assets.com/findyours-php/viewfinder/images/res60/64000/64101-Oakland-Museum-Of-California.jpg)
It's easy to dump on past designs with decades of hindsight. Back then no one knew that the industrial waterfront would be desirable commercial/residential property; it was seen as a good way to affordably build a badly needed jail. When it's time for a new jail and police building, they won't be in the same place, but I'm sure future citizens will have plenty of reasons to declare the location misguided wherever it is.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 22, 2016, 10:05:59 PM
Looking at the Oakland Museum, that building would look completely different from now if the roof garden would have been allowed to grow, instead of it being shut down to the public and having its trees and water features ripped out...
Wow! I had no idea the police station was designed to have those kind of green features. That would really make a difference in terms of how that entire block feels.
Why did they rip them out?
I'd don't know the full story, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were done for security concerns after an event like 9/11. With that said, I have a new appreciation for the building. At some point in the future, maybe the JSO should go too and a new use that reopens the garden could be considered.
Per the T-U, the Berkman II rezoning is potentially linked to hotel development on the site.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 23, 2016, 12:56:50 PM
Per the T-U, the Berkman II rezoning is potentially linked to hotel development on the site.
I wonder if this is related to the hotel Khan's been talking about. If not, I'd question the wisdom of building another hotel downtown considering all the existing ones and the one Khan wants to build.
I seem to remember there were issues with roof leaks. Don't know if that was connected to the plants, or just poor construction.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 23, 2016, 01:30:37 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on November 23, 2016, 12:56:50 PM
Per the T-U, the Berkman II rezoning is potentially linked to hotel development on the site.
I wonder if this is related to the hotel Khan's been talking about. If not, I'd question the wisdom of building another hotel downtown considering all the existing ones and the one Khan wants to build.
I would guess 100% no. Shad Khan, from early Shipyards renderings to most recent comments, indicates that he wants to build a luxury hotel that is closely integrated with Everbank Field and Daily's Place. Metro Park has been zeroed in on for said development, and whether we like such sweetheart deals or not, you can be sure there have been plenty of off-the-record conversations between the city and Mark Lamping about how that development, and future Shipyards development, is going to take shape.
The Times-Union seems to be basing their entire hotel theory on the fact that the contact listed for the project works for Indy Hotels LLC, a small ($600,000k annual revenue) Savannah-based agency.
Doesn't make sense to me. There's simply no market for a hotel in the Berkman II spot, a block from the Hyatt, when downtown's two biggest private financiers (Khan + Rummell) are already eyeing their own hotels nearby as well.
My best guess is that Choate desperately wants to unload the property, can't find any luck finding a buyer to complete the project as condos, and thinks that commercial CBD zoning will make it more attractive to potential developers.
Either way, I would think this foretells demolition more than completion.
I can't imagine Choate spending millions more for demolition. They're trying to get the money they already have in it, out. Demolition would be their worse case scenario from a financial perspective. They'd be better off walking away, then tossing more money into that pit.
I have always wondered why downtown Jax never took part in the booming national trend of downtown hotels. For the last 15 years hotel funding was easier to get than herpes on Tinder.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2016, 04:59:19 PM
I can't imagine Choate spending millions more for demolition. They're trying to get the money they already have in it, out. Demolition would be their worse case scenario from a financial perspective. They'd be better off walking away, then tossing more money into that pit.
With the proposed zoning change from urban residential to commercial CBD, wouldn't the only way around demolition be addressing any issues related to neglect and then converting the existing shell to hotel or office use? How feasible would you guess something like that to be?
Quote from: Kerry on November 24, 2016, 08:58:36 PM
I have always wondered why downtown Jax never took part in the booming national trend of downtown hotels. For the last 15 years hotel funding was easier to get than herpes on Tinder.
The most logical answer would be there is sufficient supply already.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 25, 2016, 12:06:54 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2016, 04:59:19 PM
I can't imagine Choate spending millions more for demolition. They're trying to get the money they already have in it, out. Demolition would be their worse case scenario from a financial perspective. They'd be better off walking away, then tossing more money into that pit.
With the proposed zoning change from urban residential to commercial CBD, wouldn't the only way around demolition be addressing any issues related to neglect and then converting the existing shell to hotel or office use? How feasible would you guess something like that to be?
The only logical answer would involve reusing the existing structure, as opposed to demolishing it. How feasible it is, I don't know. That depends on how much the owner is willing to lose, assuming they're trying to recoup pre-real estate bubble investment dollars.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-02-20/story/ideas-floated-blighted-building-jacksonville-downtown-riverfront
Reggie Gaffney: A man of his word.
Gaffney beats the drum about annually. Nothing has been done.
What's the estimated difference in costs between the city demolishing the structure and incentives needed to make the project work?
On the reason why the rooftop gardens disappeared from the Police Memorial Building: lack of maintenance to the gardens and the roof structure over decades led to a number of serious roof leaks. Our city has never been much on preventative maintenance, and this building was no exception. There's no one person to blame, just the general way the budget works. For years budget was requested to maintain and replace the roof, but only until it became critical did a real search for a solution begin. To replace the gardens and bring them up to code would have cost much more than replacing the roof with a more traditional structure, and so the less expensive and more expedient solution was sought.
Additionally, the issue of security did play into the replacement of the roof as well. The building was initially envisioned as a truly public place, with almost unfettered access to the roof areas. Gang members began painting graffiti onto the roof to communicate with fellow (or rival) members in the jail. Around the same time, security was hired to begin to check those coming and going from the interior building as well, because terrorism.
Even though the jail was built in 1990 and opened in 1991, the city was still under the consent decree Miller vs. Carson, from 1977. Much of how the jail was designed was to not only alleviate the chronic crowding at the old Duval County Jail and Annex, located where the Berkmans are now, but also to address the issues in the consent decree. At the time, just as was the PMB, the Pretrial Detention Facility was groundbreaking correctional construction, with precast cells, unescorted movement within the facility and large dorm-style dayrooms, all to save cost of personnel. The cost saving part didn't work all that well, with more personnel eventually determined to be required than originally thought, but we did get out from under the consent decree in 1994. Broward County just got out of their very similar consent decree this month.
The land the jail was built on did have a level of contamination, but I don't know if or how it was addressed. Same with the Community Transition Center (1989) about a block down Catherine Street, north of Sulzbacher. Both buildings are going to require significant amounts of cash to replace systems that are beginning to fail, even though the buildings are not that old. Remember, they are used 24 hours a day by clientele who are pretty hard on the infrastructure.
When both buildings were developed, there was a completely different outlook on downtown development. There was no NFL team, no Art Walk, no Elbow and no idea that anyone would ever want to do a thing with that riverfront property, as preposterous as it seems now.
Solution, IMO, would be to build a much smaller central booking facility for short term housing near the current courthouse, and expand the longer term holding at the current location of Montgomery Correctional Center (the P-Farm) out by the airport. Putting in the connector between Lannie Road and I-95 that was planned when the National Cemetery was developed would make this possible. The city already owns the land, and while there would be transportation costs between that facility and the courthouse, that cost would be far less than the acquisition costs of new land and could be mitigated by the use of video for many routine court appearances.
Thought I'd ask here since question on what is going on with this was asked in the Avondale St Johns thread. Best if kept with the actual thread. So, what is going on?
I know if I were Khan and when I start negotiating with the city on the Shipyards, this issue being resolved would be item number one.
Berkman II's rezoning was enacted in late January 2017. No updates since then.
I have a hard time imagining life on the south end of Berkman I, looking over at that hulking steel obscenity every day for the past 10 (?) years.
And blocking what would have been a decent view without it there!
http://residentnews.net/2017/05/04/city-leaders-tired-hearing-rivers-potential/
Great link DTB. Would have liked to see one person mention the threat of Global Climate Change and rising sea levels to our waterfront City. And the need for action!!
first I ever heard of Resident Community News.
They have a large presence in the Historic Districts. Been around at least 10 years.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 05, 2017, 08:58:53 AM
Great link DTB. Would have liked to see one person mention the threat of Global Climate Change and rising sea levels to our waterfront City. And the need for action!!
FIFY
Great link DTB.
Would have liked to see one person mention the threat of Global Climate Change and rising sea levels to our waterfront City. And the need for action!!
Agree RG. Just ignore it and maybe it will go away ;)
anybody have an opinion about the impact that City Council could have on resolving Berkman 2 if they really wanted to? Members routinely pound the desk, but could they actually do something to move the needle?
They could chip in some money, but I don't see that happening if there is any chance that a private investor would do it anyway. I think most people that could help push it forward are waiting to see what materializes at the shipyards first.
Money would be needed in the form of incentives to help finish it up, or to raze it. If it were a real priority, council could find funds to do either. The problem with this method is spending millions on Berkman means that's money being taken away from other public needs.
If the west end residential district of Khan's Shipyards project proves successful, Berkman Plaza II may regenerate enough interest to not require city council involvement.
^ I'm glad I'm not the only dreamer...
Quote from: Jim on May 29, 2017, 12:43:30 PM
If the west end residential district of Khan's Shipyards project proves successful, Berkman Plaza II may regenerate enough interest to not require city council involvement.
Ennis mentioned that the start of the Shipyards was contingent on the razing over the highway ramps separating the sports complex from the river.
I know Lamping has also stated in the past that the Shipyards project would also be contingent on a solution for Berkman II.
With the speed in which the Jaguars want to get to work (groundbreaking early next year), I could see Iguana fronting some of these costs (and perhaps other infrastructure costs), to be repaid by the city over time.
The Jaguars' proposal calls for Khan to buy the Shipyards property at fair market value. With the city perpetually strapped for cash, I wonder if any type of barter is possible (e.g. we give them he land, they pay for riverwalk extensions, and/or construction of the new park and/or partial ramp removal, etc.).
Quote from: KenFSU on May 31, 2017, 01:35:47 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 29, 2017, 12:43:30 PM
If the west end residential district of Khan's Shipyards project proves successful, Berkman Plaza II may regenerate enough interest to not require city council involvement.
Ennis mentioned that the start of the Shipyards was contingent on the razing over the highway ramps separating the sports complex from the river.
I know Lamping has also stated in the past that the Shipyards project would also be contingent on a solution for Berkman II.
With the speed in which the Jaguars want to get to work (groundbreaking early next year), I could see Iguana fronting some of these costs (and perhaps other infrastructure costs), to be repaid by the city over time.
The Jaguars' proposal calls for Khan to buy the Shipyards property at fair market value. With the city perpetually strapped for cash, I wonder if any type of barter is possible (e.g. we give them he land, they pay for riverwalk extensions, and/or construction of the new park and/or partial ramp removal, etc.).
What about Iguana buying or taking over Berkman Plaza II itself?
The city isn't in control of the bridge. That's a FDOT structure. I suspect the process of them demolishing it deals with much more than just being fronted the money.
The city may -- in essence -- be in control of the bridge. And the "may" revolves around the devolution of power from DC, to Tallahassee, to Florida counties and municipalities. It's just a guess on my part (I know you love these, Ennis) but one governmental acronym may do the trick: TIFIA.
The President just announced this little nugget I do believe as a key program to implement some of his key infrastructure principles:
Expand the Transportation Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (TIFIA) Program. TIFIA helps finance surface transportation projects through direct loans, loan guarantees, and lines of credit. One dollar of TIFIA subsidy leverages roughly $40 in project value. If the amount of TIFIA subsidy was increased to $1 billion annually for 10 years, that could leverage up to $140 billion in credit assistance, and approximately $424 billion in total investment. In addition, the Administration supports the expansion of TIFIA eligibility.
Hmmmm. Sounds like a Public-Private-Partnership (P3) is coming to downtown Jacksonville real soon.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1a/e4/05/1ae4052a27ed5ce71d3c4f774e176972.jpg)
LMAO!
I'm laughing right with you. And remembering all the laughs about the impossibility of this President getting elected. And the current obsessing about obviously bogus "sources say" Russia, Russia, Russia.
But hey, y'all are the experts.
Density, density, density -- right?
I've finally figured out what covfefe means.
It's Trump's plan to take down the Hart Bridge Expressway.
Maybe they could sell chucks of the ramps to pay for the demolition. It would be like owning a piece of the Berlin Wall.
Let's get the Laura St. Trio going first, like actual construction that I can see, then we will see if the state will allocate some money to tearing down the expressway. To me, the Berkman will figure itself out down the line. I think figuring out the convention center issue should be first when it comes to city money.
I agree whole heartedly FLABOY I agree. Let's get the new downtown residents and tourists going in the "TRIO" and then worry about the Hart Bridge expressway later. Make that FIRST and FOREMOST.
Quote from: Jim on June 01, 2017, 10:11:40 AM
I've finally figured out what covfefe means.
It's Trump's plan to take down the Hart Bridge Expressway.
Ha !!! Kekistanis Unite.
Quote from: RattlerGator on June 01, 2017, 10:05:20 AM
I'm laughing right with you. And remembering all the laughs about the impossibility of this President getting elected. And the current obsessing about obviously bogus "sources say" Russia, Russia, Russia.
But hey, y'all are the experts.
Density, density, density -- right?
Yeah, but at least the predictions about Trump's electoral success were based on the fact that he was known to be running for President. So, the pundits got it wrong, but they were actually making predictions about something what was known to be occurring.
In the case of the bridge, it's total speculation.
Quote from: RattlerGator on May 31, 2017, 04:55:07 PM
The city may -- in essence -- be in control of the bridge. And the "may" revolves around the devolution of power from DC, to Tallahassee, to Florida counties and municipalities. It's just a guess on my part (I know you love these, Ennis) but one governmental acronym may do the trick: TIFIA.
sorry but no- it is far more likely that the Legislature will provide a $50 million special appropriation to FDOT to remove the bridge.
A couple of interesting tidbits from J Magazine:
- The owners of Berkman II had a developer under contract who wanted to complete the building as a hotel (hence the rezoning); however, they were unable to secure a franchise for the hotel.
- The city wants to have a solution for Berkman II within the year. Options on the table are 1) Help the owners find a developer willing to complete the project, 2) buy the property outright, 3) condemn the building and raze it.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 02, 2017, 11:30:41 PM
sorry but no- it is far more likely that the Legislature will provide a $50 million special appropriation to FDOT to remove the bridge.
Just curious -- after the legislative special session, are you still holding firm on your assertion?
Aren't you a little bit less "sorry but no" about the City driving the train on this question *and* the possibility of a bigtime P3 impact in Downtown Jacksonville?
From my vantage point, you damn well should be (besides, the speculation is much more fun that way, isn't it?).
And Jim, a bigtime P3 impact in downtown may be our best hope for a Berkman II solution via Iguana & Shad. At this point, I think we have to hope and pray something like that happens.
Of course, I could be wrong. However, I think it more likely "sorry but no" is wrong. If somebody somewhere is able to figure out a way to get that JTA U2C bike and pedestrian bridge from the northbank to the southbank in the next five years --
wowza! Can that bridge act as a honeypot for transit oriented development projects on both the northbank and the southbank ? ? ? Can Berkman II and the bridge be combined into a project ? ? ?
Has Iguana seen this possibility? Have they been prudentially greasing the skids to make this a reality?
We better hope so.
3) condemn the building and raze it. - Do the right thing. Start from scratch on the site.
Razing a building that size isn't cheap. If the cost to demolish is similar to an incentive needed to find a deal to complete it, I'd say explore the use of incentives to finish the structure, given its unique circumstances and current state.
If the structure is sound, demolishing it is pointless.
Quote from: Jim on June 22, 2017, 09:47:23 AM
If the structure is sound, demolishing it is pointless.
Particularly when the property is going to become a lot more marketable as the Shipyards project progresses.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 22, 2017, 09:04:15 AM
Razing a building that size isn't cheap. If the cost to demolish is similar to an incentive needed to find a deal to complete it, I'd say explore the use of incentives to finish the structure, given its unique circumstances and current state.
Agreed. How much would demo cost?
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 22, 2017, 12:04:56 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 22, 2017, 09:04:15 AM
Razing a building that size isn't cheap. If the cost to demolish is similar to an incentive needed to find a deal to complete it, I'd say explore the use of incentives to finish the structure, given its unique circumstances and current state.
Agreed. How much would demo cost?
http://www.buildingjournal.com/commercial-construction-estimating-demolition.html
Quote from: RattlerGator on June 22, 2017, 07:25:16 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 02, 2017, 11:30:41 PM
sorry but no- it is far more likely that the Legislature will provide a $50 million special appropriation to FDOT to remove the bridge.
Just curious -- after the legislative special session, are you still holding firm on your assertion?
Aren't you a little bit less "sorry but no" about the City driving the train on this question *and* the possibility of a bigtime P3 impact in Downtown Jacksonville?
From my vantage point, you damn well should be (besides, the speculation is much more fun that way, isn't it?).
And Jim, a bigtime P3 impact in downtown may be our best hope for a Berkman II solution via Iguana & Shad. At this point, I think we have to hope and pray something like that happens.
Of course, I could be wrong. However, I think it more likely "sorry but no" is wrong. If somebody somewhere is able to figure out a way to get that JTA U2C bike and pedestrian bridge from the northbank to the southbank in the next five years -- wowza! Can that bridge act as a honeypot for transit oriented development projects on both the northbank and the southbank ? ? ? Can Berkman II and the bridge be combined into a project ? ? ? Has Iguana seen this possibility? Have they been prudentially greasing the skids to make this a reality?
We better hope so.
I am still very much comfortable with my assertion. Next year's Legislative session is likely to include a special appropriation to FDOT to reconfigure roadway connections in the area.
Ahhhh . . . that's good news, with the city being the impetus to get something done when speculation was rampant such was not in the offing.
I'll take it. But I'd be very surprised if any appropriation wasn't part of some combined effort.
Mayor: 'That eyesore has to be gone one way or another'. Curry says completion of Berkman Plaza II more likely than tearing it down.
Quoteby: David Cawton Staff Writer
Mayor Lenny Curry said Wednesday to expect movement on the unfinished Berkman Plaza II condominium on East Bay Street Downtown.
"Expect to see something there," Curry told Daily Record editors and reporters.
One thing is certain: "That eyesore has to be gone one way or another."
Curry said finding a solution to the unfinished project along the Northbank has been one of his priorities since taking office in 2015.
"We've had numerous discussions with the owners," he said. "I can tell you they've been close in the past to a deal."
The building has remained untouched since 2007, when a six-story parking garage next to the condo collapsed, killing a construction worker and injuring several others.
Construction stopped and general contractor Choate Construction Co. took possession of the structure in a foreclosure action.
Choate did not immediately respond to a request for comment Thursday.
Curry said restarting the project is necessary if the city is serious about redeveloping the riverfront. He said a renovation of the existing structure is more likely than tearing it down.
The Berkman structure is between the pending Shipyards development and the 22-story The Plaza Condominium at Berkman Plaza and Marina. That is next to the old Duval County Courthouse and City Hall that are slated for demolition.
"You don't want to develop one area, then have the courthouse and old City Hall, which is prepared for something, then have this in the middle," Curry said. "I've made it pretty clear something has to happen."
The Northbank has been the subject of redevelopment efforts for years, but Curry said timing is starting to work in the city's favor.
Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan is negotiating an economic development deal with the Downtown Investment Authority to develop the nearly 70 acres east of the Berkman II, property referred to as the Shipyards and Metropolitan Park.
Curry said talks continue, including what the city's share of the cost will be.
"As they get their concept finalized, the city will work out an agreement with Shad's companies that determines what that deal looks like," Curry said.
"As you've heard me say many times, there will be a return on investment that's evaluated there," he said.
Curry said while he understands everyone wants the process to move quickly, the city must be smart about any investment of taxpayer money.
DIA awarded Khan's company, Iguana Investments of Florida, the development rights in April. Iguana Investments has the better part of a year to come to terms with the city.
In July, Khan and Iguana President Mark Lamping took Curry and city Chief Administrative Official Sam Mousa on a three-city trip to review other sports and entertainment districts.
Lamping said the trips focused on projects by The Cordish Companies, which worked on developments in Kansas City, St. Louis and Baltimore, Maryland.
Curry said Baltimore-based Cordish was "impressive," but that choosing a developer was Khan's decision.
"The other piece of that trip that was really important was the ability to speak with prospective investors, folks that Shad may choose to partner with," Curry said.
"It's important that they see that the chief executive officer of this city believes in this, and is going to make it business-friendly," he said.
Lamping said any movement on the deal is likely to occur next year. It could then be years before the entire property is developed, driven by market demand.
Curry said it is likely that progress will be made more quickly with the old City Hall and courthouse buildings on Bay Street.
He included $8 million in his proposed budget to demolish the vacant structures as part of a $131 million Capital Improvement Program. That program is part of his proposed $1.273 billion budget in City Council review.
He said he wants to remove the buildings in preparation for private development. "We've had more than one party express interest," Curry said. "At this stage, it's just that."
Curry has an idea of what he'd like to see, "if the economics were to work out and the return on investment works out."
"A convention center, I think is a good idea," he said. "But I'm not locked in, there always have to be options on the table."
Curry said to expect "imminent" movement on the city-owned property. "That's upon us," he said.
He quips that he'd like to be involved in the actual demolition.
"If it were up to me, I would have fun and do it with a crane, but that's probably not the most efficient way," he said.
dcawton@jaxdailyrecord.com
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/mayor-that-eyesore-has-to-be-gone-one-way-or-another
Curry sure is setting lofty expectations for DT. I hope that more gets done than just tearing down buildings. If he can't deliver it will only set DT back more. Don't get me wrong, i certainly hope that he DOES deliver, because it has been a long time coming.
This quote should serve as a note of caution on expecting an overnight transformation.
QuoteLamping said any movement on the deal is likely to occur next year. It could then be years before the entire property is developed, driven by market demand.
That quote is for people like Rattlergator! Development of that size doesn't happen overnight in markets the size of Jax. I've said for a while now, you're easily looking at more than a decade before all of that stuff shown on those Shipyards renderings happens (I still doubt most of it will materialize as illustrated because the market will have changed by then). However, I'm a naysayer who doesn't believe that Khan and the Jags are our sugar daddy. Now that Lamping has stated the exact same thing, maybe reality will set in for some.
Now don't put words in my mouth, bwah.
He clearly has something lined up and it will play out over time. I don't think I've ever disputed that. Of course, you could show me different. But I recall being extremely confident that things are going to happen, and things do seem to be happening. I recall being very impressed with the creativity of Shad's team and the utility that amphitheater and flex field bring to the entertainment and sports district.
Time will tell, Ennis.
anyone else hear the rumor that Marriott is eying the Berkman 2 for one of their new Marriott Delta concepts? Delta is a partial ownership and business hotel platform. Makes sense for the location.
I just stayed at a Delta in Vancouver. It was gorgeous.
Who said the Jags and Khan were Jax's sugar daddy? Never heard that before and those who constantly put down the Jags and Khan what is your issue? We should be thankful for any development in DT Jax b/c I dont see a long list of developers trying to break down city's hall door.
^Many have been looking for Khan to be sugar daddy or more accurately, Jax's version of Detroit's Dan Gilbert, when it comes to downtown revitalization. Just read any of the old large threads on the shipyards, Landing and Laura Trio. I'm of the opinion, the more redevelopment and diversity, the better. However, I'm also of the opinion that we should not expect Khan to assume the responsibility of getting us out of the mess we've created over the last several decades.
It's happening, people. First Coast News slipped in the story at the end of a Lenny Curry interview. Berkman 2 to be resolved by year end. Sweet.
Yeah, I was told on Monday that a public announcement should be coming out this week.
Awesome news, can't wait to hear what the plan is.
Any guesses on use?
That would be great, what an eye sore that site is!
Looking forward to the the announcement! Hopefully it's mixed use hotel / apartment.
It's about time. Finally some movement downtown, several things happening, proposed, or under construction. I hope whatever it is for the old Berkman 2, that it's not topped out where it is; add more on top and make it more luxurious than originally proposed; mixed use would be nice as someone said.
I'm thinking about moving from Sarasota/Bradenton, and I've got my eyes on my birthplace, the city I grew up in from 1965 to 1968, the city I lived in during most of my naval career (1974 to 1994), and the city where I retired from the Navy in 1994, JACKSONVILLE, FLORIDA (Big Jax)!
Quote from: downtownbrown on August 31, 2017, 09:03:24 AM
It's happening, people. First Coast News slipped in the story at the end of a Lenny Curry interview. Berkman 2 to be resolved by year end. Sweet.
Here's the FCN link below.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/weather/jacksonville-mayor-weighs-in-on-texas-evacuation-orders-those-are-difficult-decisions/469016058
Thanks, it was also interested to see the part of evacuation as well. Houston's mayor is going to take some major heat for telling people to stay put.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 31, 2017, 02:48:41 PM
Awesome news, can't wait to hear what the plan is.
Any guesses on use?
Rumor I heard is a Marriott Delta, which is a quasi ownership and business travel hotel. Makes sense for an event driven location.
^It would make sense since Marriott/Starwood has zero presence downtown from any of their combined 30 brands.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 01, 2017, 02:41:21 AM
Thanks, it was also interested to see the part of evacuation as well. Houston's mayor is going to take some major heat for telling people to stay put.
Rightfully so. I thought that was a very stupid decision. Talking about 'the highways would have been clogged'. Well what's worse, a chance to get out, or being a sitting duck? In contrast, Mayor Curry made the correct decision calling for an evacuation despite Mathew staying off coast; it could have easily hit us, but thankfully it stayed out in the Atlantic.
Quote from: I-10east on September 01, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Rightfully so. I thought that was a very stupid decision. Talking about 'the highways would have been clogged'. Well what's worse, a chance to get out, or being a sitting duck?
Well the counter-argument is that far more people would have died. So sure, some people could escape but far more would be in a much more dangerous position.
That's dumb, if you're worried about road congestion, then evacuate in zones, look at the mess their in now. Sorry off topic back to Berkman
^Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Quote from: I-10east on September 01, 2017, 07:42:39 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 01, 2017, 02:41:21 AM
Thanks, it was also interested to see the part of evacuation as well. Houston's mayor is going to take some major heat for telling people to stay put.
Rightfully so. I thought that was a very stupid decision. Talking about 'the highways would have been clogged'. Well what's worse, a chance to get out, or being a sitting duck? In contrast, Mayor Curry made the correct decision calling for an evacuation despite Mathew staying off coast; it could have easily hit us, but thankfully it stayed out in the Atlantic.
You can't evacuate 6.5 million people on those roads. In the aftermath of Katrina in 2005, Houston learned that lesson the hard way. When Rita looked like it was going to directly hit Houston, city officials ordered the largest evacuation in U.S. history. 3.4 million were ordered to leave. Traffic was gridlocked for over 100 miles, for days. It was 100 degrees outside, there was no fuel to be had anywhere, and cars were so low on fuel that they couldn't turn on their AC. When the cars ran out of gas, they were abandoned on the highway, worsening the traffic jam. 140 people were dead in the evacuation before the storm even came ashore.
Sure, the mayor's taking heat, but it was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
In my opinion, he was absolutely right in his actions.
45 people died by staying put, but the real sitting ducks would have been the people stuck on the roads when the crippling gridlock and subsequent storm rolled through.
Yes but are 6.5 millions homes underwater? Those people should have been evacuated!
^Nobody could have anticipated that much rainfall.
Great Op-Ed in the New York Times by Bill King, who lost the 2015 mayoral race to Houston's current mayor.
Quotehttps://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/08/28/opinion/harvey-flooding-mayor-evacuation.html?mcubz=1
Houston's Mayor Was Right to Not Evacuate
By BILL KING
AUGUST 28, 2017
As the rains from Tropical Storm Harvey continue to pound Houston, stranding thousands of people in their homes, a question has emerged: Should local officials, particularly Mayor Sylvester Turner, have ordered mandatory evacuations?
The answer is absolutely not.
It is logistically impossible to evacuate millions of people from low-lying coastal areas ahead of a major hurricane. The disastrous evacuation in preparation for Hurricane Rita in 2005 proved the case.
Hours before the hurricane hit 2.5 million Texans fled town at the same time, according to The Houston Chronicle. This caused enormous, daylong traffic jams. While stranded on highways, people were injured or killed from heat stroke. Others got in fights. And a bus that was transporting elderly people from a nursing home exploded, killing 23 people.
In total, some 130 people died in that evacuation, more than have ever perished in a hurricane in the state's history, with the exception of the 1900 Galveston storm. Of those deaths, about half occurred before the storm hit Texas.
After Hurricane Rita, I served on a governor's commission that studied what went wrong in the evacuation. In 2005, I headed a regional task force that held hearings for hundreds of hours, for nearly a year. The work of that commission became the basis for new evacuation plans that proved reasonably effective for the Hurricane Ike evacuation in 2008. I can tell you from that experience, any attempt to evacuate Houston ahead of Tropical Storm Harvey would have made the situation much worse and almost certainly resulted in more deaths.
I narrowly lost in a runoff to Mr. Turner in the December 2015 mayoral race. While he and I certainly have our political and policy differences, the current suggestion in the news media that he should have called for an evacuation of Houston is absurd.
Attempting to evacuate areas that might be affected by localized flooding because of rainfall is an entirely different problem from evacuating areas in danger of flooding by storm surge, the rise in seawater level caused by a storm's winds pushing water onshore. We can predict with reasonable accuracy what areas will be flooded by storm surge based on the forecast and elevations. But flooding from rainfall is highly unpredictable and variable based on the dynamics of each particular rain event. Rarely will we know days in advance which areas will be flooded.
An evacuation of the entire city is a logistical impossibility. There is simply not enough roadway, gasoline in inventory or facilities in nearby cities to transport and house 2.3 million evacuees. Any such misguided attempt would have resulted in the same disaster we saw with Hurricane Rita, with thousands of disabled cars on the freeways and hundreds of thousands trapped on the road in the weather conditions we now endure.
While we do not have any hard numbers yet, my guess is that we will eventually learn that something less than 10 percent of the homes in the Houston region have been flooded by this storm. Had a general evacuation been called, 90 percent of the people would have evacuated for no reason.
Once the rains have passed and the waters have receded, there are plenty of legitimate questions that need to be asked about whether our regions are prepared for this kind of localized flooding. What plans were in place for high-water rescues? Why weren't more rescue boats and high-water vehicles positioned, especially considering that we had several days' warning that catastrophic rainfall was headed our direction?
Why were volunteer rescue organizations not activated earlier? Why are we having 100-year and 500-year floods every few years? Why, in this age of virtual networks, is our 911 system not expandable to handle a spike in calls? Why are we still licensing nursing homes in flood-prone areas? How is it that such a facility gets inundated with several feet of water and local officials learn about it on social media?
We should, and must, ask these questions at the appropriate time so that we do better next time. And trust me, there will be a next time. But second-guessing or speculating that Mayor Turner and other local officials should have called for mandatory evacuations is nonsense and betrays a fundamental ignorance of evacuation dynamics.
Bill King is a former columnist for The Houston Chronicle.
Perhaps any discussion on Houston evacuation could be taken to its own thread?!?
Bueller?
^^^ Exactly!!! Did the announcement get washed away with the hurricane?
Trying to close in Q4 according to DIA.
What's going on?
1. Mayor says B2 will be "resolved" by year end
2. DIA confirms city is trying hard to reach a deal in Q4
3. Rumor I heard is that Marriott is involved, possibly for their Delta platform.
Quote from: downtownbrown on September 27, 2017, 01:46:49 PM
1. Mayor says B2 will be "resolved" by year end
2. DIA confirms city is trying hard to reach a deal in Q4
3. Rumor I heard is that Marriott is involved, possibly for their Delta platform.
If Marriot is involved in a deal, I almost have to think they are not trying to put something there without there being an additional draw to the city like a convention center nearby. Maybe this is all part of this massive public-private partnership Curry has alluded to.
Maybe. Didn't I just read that the Hyatt just sold...
Marriott Delta is supposed to be some kind of business hotel plus interval ownership, which makes sense given the downtown/stadium event schedule. Maybe I'm just dreaming.
Mayor Curry's budget was approved this week, clearing the way for demolition of the Courthouse and Annex to begin early next year.
A couple of months ago, I was convinced that the only way that a convention center gets built in Jacksonville under public/private partnership was if we built at Met Park, adjacent to Khan's proposed hotel.
Based on some educated hunches, I'm gonna make a new prediction:
I think Curry and Iguana are going to team up on a new convention center at the site of the old Courthouse or Annex. The city will pay for the infrastructure improvements (Coastline, Courthouse, Annex demos) and maybe the land, and Iguana will pay for a large portion of construction costs. Bold Events will manage the venue.
As others have mentioned, I think the Berkman II will be completed as a hotel, with the understanding that a new convention center will be constructed next door. I almost wonder if Iguana will be involved with this as well.
Further, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Curry/Iguana's secretive meetings with Cordish were about a development on part of the Annex or Courthouse property, rather than on the Shipyards or Metro Park.
The Shipyards project is realistically going to take a long, long time to get off the ground. The ramps need to come down. The Shipyards property needs remediation, and even Metro Park is turning out to be more contaminated than originally believed.
And the Jaguars want revenue now.
The original Shipyards plan called for an amphitheater and practice field. What happened when remediation was stalling progress? They built elsewhere as quickly as they could.
I think we're going to see the same thing happen here, with the convention center, hotel, and mixed use shifted back toward the CBD.
I could be totally wrong, but to me, it's a far more desirable option both in the short-term and the long-term.
Quote from: KenFSU on September 27, 2017, 05:53:08 PM
Mayor Curry's budget was approved this week, clearing the way for demolition of the Courthouse and Annex to begin early next year.
A couple of months ago, I was convinced that the only way that a convention center gets built in Jacksonville under public/private partnership was if we built at Met Park, adjacent to Khan's proposed hotel.
Based on some educated hunches, I'm gonna make a new prediction:
I think Curry and Iguana are going to team up on a new convention center at the site of the old Courthouse or Annex. The city will pay for the infrastructure improvements (Coastline, Courthouse, Annex demos) and maybe the land, and Iguana will pay for a large portion of construction costs. Bold Events will manage the venue.
As others have mentioned, I think the Berkman II will be completed as a hotel, with the understanding that a new convention center will be constructed next door. I almost wonder if Iguana will be involved with this as well.
Further, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Curry/Iguana's secretive meetings with Cordish were about a development on part of the Annex or Courthouse property, rather than on the Shipyards or Metro Park.
The Shipyards project is realistically going to take a long, long time to get off the ground. The ramps need to come down. The Shipyards property needs remediation, and even Metro Park is turning out to be more contaminated than originally believed.
And the Jaguars want revenue now.
The original Shipyards plan called for an amphitheater and practice field. What happened when remediation was stalling progress? They built elsewhere as quickly as they could.
I think we're going to see the same thing happen here, with the convention center, hotel, and mixed use shifted back toward the CBD.
I could be totally wrong, but to me, it's a far more desirable option both in the short-term and the long-term.
If that plays out, it would be pretty amazing for Jax. Convention Center, 5 star hotel, Marriott, on top of the space at the Hyatt, along with some Cordish entertainment aspect all on Bay Street in the urban core... Sign me up. I wonder if the Landing plays into this at all in what the Mayor was doing pushing the envelope on that as well...
The old city courthouse site is literally the best spot in downtown for a new convention center. It's central to downtown, unlike the current one, the city owns the property already, and maybe one day when we finally decide to expand the skyway, it will be super easy to run it down bay street to that area.
Quote from: KenFSU on September 27, 2017, 05:53:08 PM
Mayor Curry's budget was approved this week, clearing the way for demolition of the Courthouse and Annex to begin early next year.
A couple of months ago, I was convinced that the only way that a convention center gets built in Jacksonville under public/private partnership was if we built at Met Park, adjacent to Khan's proposed hotel.
Based on some educated hunches, I'm gonna make a new prediction:
I think Curry and Iguana are going to team up on a new convention center at the site of the old Courthouse or Annex. The city will pay for the infrastructure improvements (Coastline, Courthouse, Annex demos) and maybe the land, and Iguana will pay for a large portion of construction costs. Bold Events will manage the venue.
As others have mentioned, I think the Berkman II will be completed as a hotel, with the understanding that a new convention center will be constructed next door. I almost wonder if Iguana will be involved with this as well.
Further, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Curry/Iguana's secretive meetings with Cordish were about a development on part of the Annex or Courthouse property, rather than on the Shipyards or Metro Park.
The Shipyards project is realistically going to take a long, long time to get off the ground. The ramps need to come down. The Shipyards property needs remediation, and even Metro Park is turning out to be more contaminated than originally believed.
And the Jaguars want revenue now.
The original Shipyards plan called for an amphitheater and practice field. What happened when remediation was stalling progress? They built elsewhere as quickly as they could.
I think we're going to see the same thing happen here, with the convention center, hotel, and mixed use shifted back toward the CBD.
I could be totally wrong, but to me, it's a far more desirable option both in the short-term and the long-term.
Yes please.
Ennis, are you hearing anything new?
I'm not so sure Khan would be interested in developing the convention center at the courthouse site, but there may be plenty of others who will. With someone deciding to buy the Hyatt, and if Marriott comes in just next door, developers can do the math. And the new riverfront between the Hyatt and the Riverwalk Townhomes will be ripe for waterfront venues. All of this may even incentivize Sleiman to up his game to stay competitive at the Landing. The next 5 or 10 years should be fun to watch.
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 28, 2017, 09:37:11 AM
Ennis, are you hearing anything new?
No. Curry mentioned working with a group interested in developing a hotel and convention center at the old courthouse site, a few months back, at a meeting with the Times Union. I'm still of the opinion that the money earmarked in the budget to demolish the old City Hall Annex and courthouse is key in facilitating a public private partnership there. However, I don't know who that group is or if they are affiliated with Khan.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2017, 09:52:35 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 28, 2017, 09:37:11 AM
Ennis, are you hearing anything new?
No. Curry mentioned working with a group interested in developing a hotel and convention center at the old courthouse site, a few months back, at a meeting with the Times Union. I'm still of the opinion that the money earmarked in the budget to demolish the old City Hall Annex and courthouse is key in facilitating a public private partnership there. However, I don't know who that group is or if they are affiliated with Khan.
Thanks! Hoping for the best on this one. If the Laura St. Trio and Convention Center/Berkman get going, that will be quite the transformation in downtown.
Quote from: downtownbrown on September 28, 2017, 09:42:52 AM
I'm not so sure Khan would be interested in developing the convention center at the courthouse site, but there may be plenty of others who will.
Just curious, why don't you think Khan would be interested in developing a convention center at the Courthouse site? He's expressed clear interest in developing a hotel, convention center, and mixed-use for the last several years. Khan considers them to be important additional revenue streams to keep the Jags business stable in Jacksonville. He's launched Bold Events, which is already positioning itself in the convention space.
What's inherently special about the Metro Park site, aside from being adjacent to the stadium his team plays at nine times a year?
If I'm Khan, let's break down the options:
Option 1 - Negotiate a development agreement with the city to build a hotel and convention space in the stadium district. Fight with the state in perpetuity about the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps. Negotiate a land swap for Metro Park. Demolish Met Park. Design a replacement. Remediate the land, as well an any adjacent Shipyards property that would be involved. Extend the riverwalk. Build a convention center/hotel/mixed use in isolation, more than a mile from the central business district. Make improvements to Bay Street, better connecting the new development with the CBD.
Option 2 - Once demolition of the old Courthouse site is complete, on the city's tab, negotiate a deal to develop a convention center/hotel/mixed use on prime riverfront space, directly in the central business district, on a newly built riverwalk. Improve connectivity between CBD and stadium district.
On the surface, unless there's some reason that Iguana is just totally married to the idea of developing adjacent to the stadium, it seems like a no-brainer.
Ground won't be turned, and revenue won't be realized, on Option 1 for YEARS, with the whole plan hinging on unknowns outside of the Khan's control (will the state give us $60 million to remove the ramps? how much will Shipyards remediation cost? how much will Met Park remediation cost? will the land swap be approved?). This is going to be a long-term, very, very expensive project for all involved.
Conversely, Option 2 could be under construction as early as next year and generating revenue by 2019.
Even putting the logistics aside, to me, the old Courthouse site, right in the heart of the city, adjacent to the city's biggest hotels and a stone's throw from the Laura Street Trio, Landing, Elbow, etc. seems like a much more lucrative opportunity for Iguana than building in isolation.
Interesting assumptions. The only thing I'll add is I was told that mayor's office is concerned about improving connectivity/access between downtown, the courthouse site and the sports district.
I hope Khan is interested, and your points are good ones. My impression, however, is that he wants his empire around the stadium. But really, it's an easy mosey from the Berkman to the stadium, and an expanded boulevard with mass transportation alternatives (bring back the trolleys?) would seem to work just fine.
The key would be the connectivity to the stadium because for larger conventions I am sure a pitch would be use of the stadium, amphitheater and IPF if Bold Events ran the convention business in town. Getting people from the convention center to the stadium would be the hang up. To get to the amphitheater from the old Courthouse is a .9 mile walk and 17 minutes according to google.
that's why I think bringing back the trolleys on a constant loop during events would be great. Riverside to the Stadium.
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 28, 2017, 01:29:20 PM
The key would be the connectivity to the stadium because for larger conventions I am sure a pitch would be use of the stadium, amphitheater and IPF if Bold Events ran the convention business in town. Getting people from the convention center to the stadium would be the hang up. To get to the amphitheater from the old Courthouse is a .9 mile walk and 17 minutes according to google.
I'd almost think of this in the opposite way. With a convention center at the old Courthouse site, yes, there would be some difficulty in getting people from the convention center to the stadium for the 10% of events large enough to utilize all three venues. But, with a convention center at Met Park, you'd have a much bigger problem in getting people from the stadium to the downtown core for the other 90% of the more typical events.
To me, you run into the same connectivity problem either way.
I'd love to see some form of fixed transportation between the sports complex and old Courthouse site, but the more immediate answer might be the new pilot program that JTA is readying for autonomous vehicles. This corridor was specifically cited, along with Riverside, for the pilot program, and I imagine they could have it online in time for any new convention center.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Skyway-Expansion-Board/i-RBNQ4zw/0/L/jta_skyway-board-update-120816_final-47-L.jpg)
And if we're talking conspiracy theory, in terms of a mixed-use component, the secretive Curry trip with Khan and Lamping to see the Cordish developments in St. Louis, Kansas City, and Baltimore, to me, also suggests a location somewhere near the old Courthouse/Annex as well. He released his draft budget in July, which included the demolition of those properties, and just days later, he went on an off-the-books cross-country tour with Iguana to tour those developments. He called back before the trip was even over to talk funding such a development.
We're YEARS away from being able to build anything on the Shipyards property. Why the rushed trip to all these different spots if we're talking Shipyards?
Quote from: KenFSU on September 28, 2017, 03:34:27 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 28, 2017, 01:29:20 PM
The key would be the connectivity to the stadium because for larger conventions I am sure a pitch would be use of the stadium, amphitheater and IPF if Bold Events ran the convention business in town. Getting people from the convention center to the stadium would be the hang up. To get to the amphitheater from the old Courthouse is a .9 mile walk and 17 minutes according to google.
I'd almost think of this in the opposite way. With a convention center at the old Courthouse site, yes, there would be some difficulty in getting people from the convention center to the stadium for the 10% of events large enough to utilize all three venues. But, with a convention center at Met Park, you'd have a much bigger problem in getting people from the stadium to the downtown core for the other 90% of the more typical events.
To me, you run into the same connectivity problem either way.
I'd love to see some form of fixed transportation between the sports complex and old Courthouse site, but the more immediate answer might be the new pilot program that JTA is readying for autonomous vehicles. This corridor was specifically cited, along with Riverside, for the pilot program, and I imagine they could have it online in time for any new convention center.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Skyway-Expansion-Board/i-RBNQ4zw/0/L/jta_skyway-board-update-120816_final-47-L.jpg)
And if we're talking conspiracy theory, in terms of a mixed-use component, the secretive Curry trip with Khan and Lamping to see the Cordish developments in St. Louis, Kansas City, and Baltimore, to me, also suggests a location somewhere near the old Courthouse/Annex as well. He released his draft budget in July, which included the demolition of those properties, and just days later, he went on an off-the-books cross-country tour with Iguana to tour those developments. He called back before the trip was even over to talk funding such a development.
We're YEARS away from being able to build anything on the Shipyards property. Why the rushed trip to all these different spots if we're talking Shipyards?
I agree that this is the better situation than building by the stadium. This should definitely be interesting. I really am hoping for some movement on this soon.
B2 is about to get real.
Anyone heard anything new on Berkman II?
Curry made it sound like an announcement was imminent in late 2017.
Six months later, radio silence.
rumor was it was about to close at the end of last year. Lawyers have slowed the process. No idea where it is now, but someone should be asking the mayor.
Deal getting close.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/deal-could-be-close-on-unfinished-berkman-ii-downtown
I'm ready when they are. I hope the rumored buyer is accurate.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 30, 2018, 10:11:43 AM
Deal getting close.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/deal-could-be-close-on-unfinished-berkman-ii-downtown
(https://morbotron.com/gif/S02E12/968345/970848.gif?b64lines=IElOVEVSRVNUSU5HLCBJRiBUUlVFLgo=)
Quote from: downtownbrown on May 30, 2018, 11:40:47 AM
I'm ready when they are. I hope the rumored buyer is accurate.
You still hearing Marriott?
that's all I've ever heard. Their Delta concept, which kind of makes sense.
^You've got to think that Choate loses a bit of negotiating leverage when the mayor publicly says, "If you can't sell the property to Marriott, we're taking it by force."
Hope the deal closes by August as claimed, but unlike the Landing, I do agree with the mayor on this one. One way or another, we need to move on here.
QuoteCurry said the owner, Choate Construction Co., told his administration recently it expects to close soon on a deal for the site.
"We've made it very clear to them that if this deal doesn't close, the city will act," he said. "Whatever that looks like."
Curry declined to say what that action could be.
When asked if that meant condemning the structure or purchasing it directly from Choate, he said. "I think all options are on the table."
"The most important thing for your readers to understand is that it's not an option for that to sit like it has for another year," he said.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/mayor-currys-focus-for-redevelopment-the-northbank
Quote from: KenFSU on June 21, 2018, 01:29:50 PM
^You've got to think that Choate loses a bit of negotiating leverage when the mayor publicly says, "If you can't sell the property to Marriott, we're taking it by force."
Hope the deal closes by August as claimed, but unlike the Landing, I do agree with the mayor on this one. One way or another, we need to move on here.
QuoteCurry said the owner, Choate Construction Co., told his administration recently it expects to close soon on a deal for the site.
"We've made it very clear to them that if this deal doesn't close, the city will act," he said. "Whatever that looks like."
Curry declined to say what that action could be.
When asked if that meant condemning the structure or purchasing it directly from Choate, he said. "I think all options are on the table."
"The most important thing for your readers to understand is that it's not an option for that to sit like it has for another year," he said.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/mayor-currys-focus-for-redevelopment-the-northbank
Bingo! Either you do it our way, or we'll use the taxpayers of Duval County's money to force your hand. The city can afford the legal fees, and whomever has the deepest pockets wins.
Berkman 2 Will not be torn down. It will become hotel and entertainment complex. The property was sold yesterday and a developer will be announced soon. We could see the new hotel and other amenities within the next three years. Live report at noon. @wjxt4 https://twitter.com/wjxtjimpiggott/status/1019240462211846145/photo/1
Quote from: Rynjny on July 17, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Berkman 2 Will not be torn down. It will become hotel and entertainment complex. The property was sold yesterday and a developer will be announced soon. We could see the new hotel and other amenities within the next three years. Live report at noon. @wjxt4 https://twitter.com/wjxtjimpiggott/status/1019240462211846145/photo/1
What a time to be alive.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 11:48:58 AM
Quote from: Rynjny on July 17, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Berkman 2 Will not be torn down. It will become hotel and entertainment complex. The property was sold yesterday and a developer will be announced soon. We could see the new hotel and other amenities within the next three years. Live report at noon. @wjxt4 https://twitter.com/wjxtjimpiggott/status/1019240462211846145/photo/1
What a time to be alive.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/list/001/038/949/5f4.gif)
Details remain scarce, but credit to Curry for forcing the issue.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/berkman-plaza-ii-sold
Quote from: Rynjny on July 17, 2018, 11:25:43 AM
Berkman 2 Will not be torn down. It will become hotel and entertainment complex. The property was sold yesterday and a developer will be announced soon. We could see the new hotel and other amenities within the next three years. Live report at noon. @wjxt4 https://twitter.com/wjxtjimpiggott/status/1019240462211846145/photo/1
If that means street-level commercial to further the aim of street-level activation (which the other Berkman lacks), this is especially positive news.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 12:30:01 PM
Details remain scarce, but credit to Curry for forcing the issue.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/berkman-plaza-ii-sold
I'll reserve my judgement for when the details come up, but yes I agree. I kept hearing "it was happening" forever now so I wasn't expecting it anytime soon.
But yes-on the surface this is a good thing. Choate wasn't going to develop it, so the chances of this actually being developed just went up!
Does the city withhold all financial incentive up until something tangible is in the works or does the city cut un-announced developer a check to the tune of +/- $36.5M before they even put a shovel in the ground?
(https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Futurama-Fry.jpg)
Heck, that didn't take long... Only 8 months after the first rumors. Will be interesting to hear the brand.
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 17, 2018, 03:52:50 PM
Heck, that didn't take long... Only 8 months after the first rumors. Will be interesting to hear the brand.
And only 11 years since the construction accident which stalled it.
2006
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
Does the city withhold all financial incentive up until something tangible is in the works or does the city cut un-announced developer a check to the tune of +/- $36.5M before they even put a shovel in the ground?
1) Curry's expecting work to begin as early as this week.
2) Berkman II is expected to be open for business in less than three years. And the USS Adams - which will be docked at the foot of Berkman II in that leftmost Shipyards pier - will be on its way sooner than later, as it was recently approved for donation to Jacksonville and the museum has picked up support from the state. Seems like a great time to really start thinking about completing that land swap, building the proposed flagship park adjacent to Berkman and the Adams, and opening up Met Park to whatever the Jags want to do with it.
3) This adds an interesting wrinkle to the convention center RFP. 350 rooms, plus restaurant/retail required in the RFP, and here we've got 200+ rooms and entertainment literally being built next door to potentially poach that business away. Hopefully it makes us rethink those requirements a bit.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 09:20:07 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
Does the city withhold all financial incentive up until something tangible is in the works or does the city cut un-announced developer a check to the tune of +/- $36.5M before they even put a shovel in the ground?
1) Curry's expecting work to begin as early as this week.
2) Berkman II is expected to be open for business in less than three years. And the USS Adams - which will be docked at the foot of Berkman II in that leftmost Shipyards pier - will be on its way sooner than later, as it was recently approved for donation to Jacksonville and the museum has picked up support from the state. Seems like a great time to really start thinking about completing that land swap, building the proposed flagship park adjacent to Berkman and the Adams, and opening up Met Park to whatever the Jags want to do with it.
3) This adds an interesting wrinkle to the convention center RFP. 350 rooms, plus restaurant/retail required in the RFP, and here we've got 200+ rooms and entertainment literally being built next door to potentially poach that business away. Hopefully it makes us rethink those requirements a bit.
It's just the
pessimist realist in me. But it really seems like a lot of the things that we're doing now were the same types of things we were doing 13-15 years ago and we know how that ended.
And I'm sure you didn't miss the hint, but for those of you that are kind of new to Jax - look up Tri-Legacy Shipyards.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 09:20:07 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2018, 12:46:49 PM
Does the city withhold all financial incentive up until something tangible is in the works or does the city cut un-announced developer a check to the tune of +/- $36.5M before they even put a shovel in the ground?
1) Curry's expecting work to begin as early as this week.
2) Berkman II is expected to be open for business in less than three years. And the USS Adams - which will be docked at the foot of Berkman II in that leftmost Shipyards pier - will be on its way sooner than later, as it was recently approved for donation to Jacksonville and the museum has picked up support from the state. Seems like a great time to really start thinking about completing that land swap, building the proposed flagship park adjacent to Berkman and the Adams, and opening up Met Park to whatever the Jags want to do with it.
3) This adds an interesting wrinkle to the convention center RFP. 350 rooms, plus restaurant/retail required in the RFP, and here we've got 200+ rooms and entertainment literally being built next door to potentially poach that business away. Hopefully it makes us rethink those requirements a bit.
It may make more sense for a smaller hotel that is more niche' on the site, especially a 5 Star. We will see how the economics work but definitely makes a hotel on site less needed.
With or without Berkman, there's no need for a hotel at the proposed convention center site. That's what we subsidized Hyatt to be two decades ago.
this is where a Marriott Delta makes sense. Part business hotel, part ownership model, which makes sense for it's proximity to event sites. Great news for the long suffering owners of the Plaza Townhomes which now find themselves in the center of the universe.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 17, 2018, 09:24:58 PM
It's just the pessimist realist in me. But it really seems like a lot of the things that we're doing now were the same types of things we were doing 13-15 years ago and we know how that ended.
And I'm sure you didn't miss the hint, but for those of you that are kind of new to Jax - look up Tri-Legacy Shipyards.
Some projects yes, some projects no. I'd say shipyards and district, as currently designed, no chance. Hotel Indigo, the trio, maybe the ambassador hotel, and a couple other small things will get built. In 2006 there were some monstrosities proposed without anything really to support them. The JEA building redevelopment, the 2 towers on the Aetna property, Bishopgate, 323 Duval, and others all just seemed to be development for development's sake. There is a demand for downtown living new hotel offerings. Beyond that I don't know that the market and time will support for future development
I'd agree. This is no different from all the multiple mall proposals in the suburbs back in the 1980s. Some of these are way more realistic than others, with much shorter implementation timelines. Courtyard at the Trio, Hotel Indigo, Residence Inn Brooklyn, etc. all seem more realistic then concepts proposed at the District, Shipyards/Lot J, city hall site convention center, Sister Cities Plaza, etc. A few of these will fizzle out depending on market dynamics and the success/failure of the first few completed hotel projects.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 18, 2018, 10:37:03 AM
I'd agree. This is no different from all the multiple mall proposals in the suburbs back in the 1980s. Some of these are way more realistic than others, with much shorter implementation timelines. Courtyard at the Trio, Hotel Indigo, Residence Inn Brooklyn, etc. all seem more realistic then concepts proposed at the District, Shipyards/Lot J, city hall site convention center, Sister Cities Plaza, etc. A few of these will fizzle out depending on market dynamics and the success/failure of the first few completed hotel projects.
Fine by me. I'll take all of the "smaller" project wins over the Shipyards or District any day of the week for numerous reasons. 1) These are all in the central core of downtown where the most help is needed and 2) we are bringing once beautiful buildings back to life. (minus the brooklyn projecT)
A few more details from the JBJ:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/07/18/new-details-emerge-for-berkman-plaza-ii.html
QuoteFollowing the city's announcement that the half-finished condo tower on the bank of the St. Johns River has been sold to an unnamed developer, fresh details on the site plans have come to light.
The Berkman Plaza II, located at 500 E. Bay St., will be redeveloped into a mixed-use project consisting of a 312-room hotel, a parking garage with around 500 spaces and a riverfront entertainment area with retail and restaurant space.
Robert Ohde, the owner of Wisconsin-based Ohde Construction, which is the the general contractor on the project, said it is expected to cost around $150 million. Once completed, it could bring 900 jobs downtown.
The redevelopment is still in the planning stages, but crews are going to start cleaning up the site in the first part of next week, Ohde said.
Ohde declined to identify the developer behind the project.
Hey All, been visiting this site, (well, Meterojax for a long time) and wanted to chime in on a thread.
But does anybody have an idea if they're going to build out the remaining floors, or am I stating the obvious? If they're doing 300 plus units, they would have to complete the remaining 5-6 stories. Berkman 1 has just over 200 units, if memory serves me correctly.
Just a guess, but I would suppose that hotel rooms are smaller than residential units, so they could fit more per floor. Of course, that would require reconfiguration of the plumbing and electrical, assuming they got that far before work stopped.
Very interesting. Could Khan be involved? It is in Iguana's long term interest to have more continuous development between downtown and their future entertainment district both from connectivity and control standpoints. This might be more or less a stepping stone project.
Also, the Mayor's behind the scenes involvement is intriguing. On one hand Curry is advocating for a new riverfront entertainment hub at this location, while simultaneously trying to destroy the Landing.
I was thinking along the same lines, that they're standard hotel room is a little smaller. but I know the one bedroom condos aren't that vast either.
^It's not Khan/Jags.
I will say....to me if they're doing 300 rooms then they should drop that from the Convention Center RFP. This is your 300 room hotel right there.
Some points - unless developments include street-level activation in their design, the perception of vibrancy in the core that all seem to want will remain out of reach. Number two - the jailhouse is just across the street and is awful - but I believe it could be less awful with some form of street level activation - does anyone have ideas as to how that could be accomplished and what sort of street-level use could be featured? Number 3 - are any backup plans under consideration for old courthouse and annex buildings, why not RFP for non-convention uses as well...I suppose you'd get two different audience pools for responses.
^On 3, Curry's got his sights locked on convention center for that space. I don't think he wants a backup plan. Zero percent chance, literally, that the city receives no credible responses to the RFP.
Brimming with optimism, all I've got to say is: "GO JAX GO!!!"
Quote from: KenFSU on July 18, 2018, 06:33:20 PM
^On 3, Curry's got his sights locked on convention center for that space. I don't think he wants a backup plan. Zero percent chance, literally, that the city receives no credible responses to the RFP.
I really hope that is what ends up there (short of that crazy 700 space garage as part of the RFP). My fear is what they demur on a convention center at that site, go with teardown only option and decide the Shad Shipyards convention center is what they want.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on July 18, 2018, 05:59:59 PM
Some points - unless developments include street-level activation in their design, the perception of vibrancy in the core that all seem to want will remain out of reach. Number two - the jailhouse is just across the street and is awful - but I believe it could be less awful with some form of street level activation - does anyone have ideas as to how that could be accomplished and what sort of street-level use could be featured? Number 3 - are any backup plans under consideration for old courthouse and annex buildings, why not RFP for non-convention uses as well...I suppose you'd get two different audience pools for responses.
Just a thought, but what about putting the parking garage for this building where the Police/Jail parking lot is now with a little retail at the bottom? The officers have plenty of area to park in the Shipyards while it is built. It is unlikely that any sort of development would go in there while the prison is there, but this would potentially save waterfront from an ugly garage, create some street interaction, and create an additional buffer from the prison.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 18, 2018, 10:02:25 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on July 18, 2018, 05:59:59 PM
Some points - unless developments include street-level activation in their design, the perception of vibrancy in the core that all seem to want will remain out of reach. Number two - the jailhouse is just across the street and is awful - but I believe it could be less awful with some form of street level activation - does anyone have ideas as to how that could be accomplished and what sort of street-level use could be featured? Number 3 - are any backup plans under consideration for old courthouse and annex buildings, why not RFP for non-convention uses as well...I suppose you'd get two different audience pools for responses.
Just a thought, but what about putting the parking garage for this building where the Police/Jail parking lot is now with a little retail at the bottom? The officers have plenty of area to park in the Shipyards while it is built. It is unlikely that any sort of development would go in there while the prison is there, but this would potentially save waterfront from an ugly garage, create some street interaction, and create an additional buffer from the prison.
I think this makes a lot of sense, and can help set the tone for what we want Bay Street to become.
Per the Business Journal:
Quote"It will have a family entertainment center with a water park and amusement rides," said Odhe, whose company has been brought on as the general contractor.
"The amusement park will be like a Dave & Buster's on steroids," he said.
He declined to identify the developer.
In addition to the play areas, Odhe said the now vacant condo tower in Downtown Jacksonville-Riverfront will be renovated into the hotel.
He added that plans also call for several restaurants and a couple of bars, all of which he estimates will require 900 employees to run the resort year-round.
The project should cost about $150 million and take about 18 months to complete, he said, and that the initial phases of cleaning and preparing the property for construction could start as early as next week.
"This is definitely going to be a go-to destination," Odhe said when asked if this resort could compete with the massive competition in Orlando.
Odhe said he and others will be able to disclose more in the coming weeks once the final commitment paperwork has been filed.
(https://snag.gy/N49KJP.jpg)
Quote from: KenFSU on July 19, 2018, 12:04:11 PM
Per the Business Journal:
Quote"It will have a family entertainment center with a water park and amusement rides"
Whoa. You're right about 2006. I want to ask so many stupid questions about the water park and rides.
I missed that in the article. I heard entertainment aspect and thought about a couple bars.
To be clear - if someone wants to build a mini Adventure Landing I don't have an issue. The project just sounds really unrealistic at this point unless the developer is someone with a proven track record of this (e.g not the two guys who bought the Ambassador).
GAME CHANGER ALERT!!!!
(https://snag.gy/0zALp9.jpg)
Seriously all my confidence in this project just went out the window. Hopefully the hotel is "phase 1" and the amusement park proposal can die a peaceful death somewhere down the road.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 19, 2018, 12:33:39 PM
Seriously all my confidence in this project just went out the window.
Unless in next week's budget announcement, Curry is going to spend....
(https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/files/2015/09/drevil.jpg)
In all seriousness, time will tell if it ever gets built, but I do kinda love the idea of hotel/waterpark/restaurants in that area. Adds another genuine destination to the riverwalk, and really nicely compliments what we want to do with the USS Adams and Veterans Park adjacent to the property. It also nicely compliments what we want to do a block away with the convention center in that it encourages conventioneers to bring their families with them (more heads in beds). And, it gets more families into the urban core on the weekend.
I hope it gets built.
I'd love to see a concept plan. That's a small site to pile all these things on to a point where they'll be a viable attraction as described in the articles. Are they using some of the Shipyards land?
Apparently the sale was for $4.75M:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/07/19/berkman-plaza-ii-sells-for-4-75-million.html?ana=e_jac_bn_newsalert&u=11189397374e6a451121b1b0bac0c5&t=1532022003&j=82796081
QuoteThe half-finished Berkman Plaza II was purchased for $4.75 million, according to newly filed records Thursday.
Buyer 500 East Bay LLC is registered to Robert Ohde, the owner of Wisconsin-based Ohde Construction. On Wednesday, Ohde identified his company as the general contractor on the project. He declined to identify the developer.
Choate Construction, the previous owner, obtained the property in 2014 after winning a foreclosure judgment under a construction lien. The building has sat dormant since a 2007 construction accident where a parking garage collapsed and killed a worker.
The building, located at 500 E. Bay St., will be redeveloped into a mixed-use project consisting of a 312-room hotel, a parking garage with around 500 spaces and a riverfront entertainment area with retail and restaurant space, Ohde told the Business Journal. He said the project is expected to cost around $150 million. Once completed, it could bring 900 jobs downtown.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 19, 2018, 01:13:12 PM
In all seriousness, time will tell if it ever gets built, but I do kinda love the idea of hotel/waterpark/restaurants in that area. Adds another genuine destination to the riverwalk, and really nicely compliments what we want to do with the USS Adams and Veterans Park adjacent to the property. It also nicely compliments what we want to do a block away with the convention center in that it encourages conventioneers to bring their families with them (more heads in beds). And, it gets more families into the urban core on the weekend.
I hope it gets built.
Sure, I'm definitely not against it (unless some detail comes out that the city is paying some astronomical amount of money towards it).
I'm also not against a water park that has slides that drop you into a pool of Macaroni and Cheese either, but at this point I'd give either water park about an equally likely chance of happening.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 19, 2018, 01:19:30 PM
I'd love to see a concept plan. That's a small site to pile all these things on to a point where they'll be a viable attraction as described in the articles. Are they using some of the Shipyards land?
Even if the garage fronts Bay Street, I can't see them fitting the scale they describe on the Berkman II property without encroaching on the Shipyards. Adventure Landing, which isn't exactly a waterpark that keeps Orlando up at night, is over 110,000 square feet for just the waterpark portion. The entire Berkman II property - which would need to fit hotel, parking garage, and waterpark, is around 80,000 square feet.
On the roof - Las Vegas-style?
I moved my entire 401K to fixed income today. This, Ambassador, District, Lot J does sound like 2006. My money is on the Trio, Residence Inn, and MAYBE AC Hotel at the District and Delta Hotel ONLY at the Berkman.
I think the key difference between now and 2006, particularly in terms of hotel and residential, is that this isn't speculative. The demand for more hotels downtown is clearly there. Literally just finished compiling hotel data for last quarter for a client, and downtown is experiencing some crazy growth this year on that front. A 15% lift in occupancy (76.4% for the quarter), at a higher average daily rate, with RevPAR for downtown up 18% year-over-year. We're past the point where these investors should be thought of as taking a chance on downtown Jacksonville. The demand is there and downtown hotel is now a sound investment. 70-75% occupancy is typically where you see a rush of new construction.
Which of these projects don't require incentives?
Quote from: KenFSU on July 19, 2018, 05:09:13 PM
I think the key difference between now and 2006, particularly in terms of hotel and residential, is that this isn't speculative. The demand for more hotels downtown is clearly there. Literally just finished compiling hotel data for last quarter for a client, and downtown is experiencing some crazy growth this year on that front. A 15% lift in occupancy (76.4% for the quarter), at a higher average daily rate, with RevPAR for downtown up 18% year-over-year. We're past the point where these investors should be thought of as taking a chance on downtown Jacksonville. The demand is there and downtown hotel is now a sound investment. 70-75% occupancy is typically where you see a rush of new construction.
The most popular Airbnb in Jacksonville is on the Northbank. What does that tell you?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 19, 2018, 05:18:20 PM
Which of these projects don't require incentives?
Wallace said only Courtyard and Residence have asked for incentives. LOL. The others are not far enough along to ask yet, but believe me they will. Only one that may not is Indigo.
From the (now-unionized) Times-Union (http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180719/berkman-plaza-ii-envisioned-as-hub-for-family-fun-center-in-downtown).
Sounds like they'll definitely be asking for a piece of the Shipyards.
QuoteWhile hotels are a common sight in downtown, the family fun center would be something different. Ohde declined to elaborate on what the fun center will entail. He said the ownership group is working with the city in regard to matching the development with sufficient land for full build-out.
"We really won't know until we can figure out what room we have and what access we have to work with," he said. "We know what we want to do."
He said the fun center would be the driving force behind the development, aimed at attracting visitors who would come for entertainment and stay at the hotel.
"This will be a go-to place," he said. "They're going to come to Jacksonville to use this facility."
Also interesting:
QuoteReal estate records filed with the Duval County Clerk's office show Choate sold the property for $4.75 million to 500 East Bay LLC, which is based in Rhinelander, Wis., last Friday.
In addition, Choate loaned $3.25 million to 500 East Bay LLC, according to a mortgage document dated Monday. Ohde said that loan is part of Choate's efforts to help the new owners move the development forward.
How funny would it be if the new developer defaulted on the property, and Choate ended up owning Berkman 2 again ;D
Full details, including hotel tenant, expected in three weeks.
Quote"This is definitely going to be a go-to destination," Odhe said when asked if this resort could compete with the massive competition in Orlando.
Just like Unity Plaza was supposed to be Central Park, and the Jags patterning after the Packers (just because they are two small market teams, and literally nothing else in common) Stop it with the embarrassing hyperbole please!
I'm excited about hearing this news of an amusement park, don't get me wrong; If we are lucky, it will be something to the tune of Fun Spot Orlando/Kissimmee (or even smaller); No way it's gonna compete with Orlando, at best, it will be a minor complement to Orlando. The fact the this park will be urban is unusual, given that most amusement parks in modernity are in suburban/rural/residential locations.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/big-plans-for-berkman-plaza-ii
I just don't get the "Dave and Busters on steroids" thing. The demographic is going to be young professional, but not THAT young. It's all noise until it ain't.
And the article says they are asking for incentives. Imagine that. This will probably sit there for another couple years I'm afraid.
Quote from: jaxjags on July 20, 2018, 10:10:43 AM
And the article says they are asking for incentives. Imagine that. This will probably sit there for another couple years I'm afraid.
Unless there's some sort of understanding already.....
^As long as they're reasonable, the incentives should pay for themselves on this project. Jacksonville gains just as much from not having this embarrassment on the waterfront for another decade as the developer does from the incentives. Plus, it's not exactly an easy piece of property to move. And if we did have to try to take it forcefully from Choate, then we're talking legal fees, and potential demolition fees as well.
When the full plans are announced, I think Curry's involvement with and reaction to the announcement will be telling. I'm not sensing the same type of celebration and back-patting from Curry and the DIA that we've seen with other downtown announcements. Not sure if that's because the details are so scarce, or if it reflects a lack of confidence in the ownership group.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 20, 2018, 12:41:53 PM
^As long as they're reasonable, the incentives should pay for themselves on this project. Jacksonville gains just as much from not having this embarrassment on the waterfront for another decade as the developer does from the incentives. Plus, it's not exactly an easy piece of property to move. And if we did have to try to take it forcefully from Choate, then we're talking legal fees, and potential demolition fees as well.
When the full plans are announced, I think Curry's involvement with and reaction to the announcement will be telling. I'm not sensing the same type of celebration and back-patting from Curry and the DIA that we've seen with other downtown announcements. Not sure if that's because the details are so scarce, or if it reflects a lack of confidence in the ownership group.
It just seems like there's a plan behind the scenes that no one is talking about, which means that they cooked up a plan in the dark. Those usually don't go well.
Not including the conceptual stuff at the Shipyards/Lot J and Convention Center RFP:
Berkman Plaza: 312 rooms
Ambassador Hotel: 100 rooms
Marriott Residence Inn: 135 rooms
Marriott AC Hotel: 200 rooms
Marriott Courtyard: 145 rooms
Hotel Indigo: 89 rooms
Hyatt Place: 128 rooms
Where's Kerry? A few months ago, he was a big advocate of real downtowns having several hotel projects under development.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 20, 2018, 02:09:31 PM
Not including the conceptual stuff at the Shipyards/Lot J and Convention Center RFP:
Berkman Plaza: 312 rooms
Ambassador Hotel: 100 rooms
Marriott Residence Inn: 135 rooms
Marriott AC Hotel: 200 rooms
Marriott Courtyard: 145 rooms
Hotel Indigo: 89 rooms
Hyatt Place: 128 rooms
Where's Kerry? A few months ago, he was a big advocate of real downtowns having several hotel projects under development.
Kerry reminds me of one of those people that writes into Monday Morning QB right after the Jags get housed, but when they have a solid win you hear crickets.
Kerry - if you're reading I mean that in the nicest way possible (I seriously do). You do have a reputation for looking at the glass as "half empty" though.
I hope urban residential apartment developers will see that the demand is there like hotel developers have finally noticed.
I think they did before the hotel developers did. There's a lot more residential units already under construction or proposed.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 20, 2018, 04:37:33 PM
I think they did before the hotel developers did. There's a lot more residential units already under construction or proposed.
I guess I meant market rate apartments like the Barnett.
I think there was a high-rise Holiday Inn along I-70 in Columbus that was converted into an indoor water resort. I want to say some of the water slides jutted out of the side of the building and reentered somewhere below. I cannot remember it's name, but it was a fairly small footprint. Would not be surprised to see something similar with this. I mean, they asked him if the park would compete with Orlando attractions. What's he going to say? "No, it's going to be a rinky dink attraction that caters mostly to locals?" Not a great business pitch.
Quote from: jagsonville on July 20, 2018, 05:14:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 20, 2018, 04:37:33 PM
I think they did before the hotel developers did. There's a lot more residential units already under construction or proposed.
I guess I meant market rate apartments like the Barnett.
The Barnett is only market rate because it got tons of incentives. The only recent residential project of size I can think of that has not received or asked for some sort of incentive is Broadstone on the Southbank.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 20, 2018, 08:11:34 PM
Quote from: jagsonville on July 20, 2018, 05:14:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 20, 2018, 04:37:33 PM
I think they did before the hotel developers did. There's a lot more residential units already under construction or proposed.
I guess I meant market rate apartments like the Barnett.
The Barnett is only market rate because it got tons of incentives. The only recent residential project of size I can think of that has not received or asked for some sort of incentive is Broadstone on the Southbank.
I agree that the Barnett is being remodeled because of incentives but I think making them market rate was Adkins choice and just a sound overall business move. Besides Broadstone, do the home street apartments count as Downtown or just San Marco? I don't mind incentives, hell we are spending millions on removing the hart ramps for a multibillionaire's project. At this point I feel like we need to openly offer incentives to give developers an incentive to jump into an unproven market. Once they see the demand is there like Adkins is realizing right now they or others will proceed with projects without incentives.
I don't mind incentives. There's been demand for housing in downtown for well over a decade. However, the numbers don't always work, which is incentives are still needed.
https://www.500eastbay.com/
Discuss.
So is this a condo development or a hotel? Also these guys are supposed to build a Dave & Busters on steroids? Also, what's up the decade old dead shipyards project renderings? Is this website a joke?
Did they build that website on Angelfire?
There is a lot of information on that website. First is that they will have 10 floors for the hotel, the rest will be condos. They will finish the construction up to at least 22 floors. There will be 41 condos spread out across floors 2 through 22. Prices for the condos will range from a low of $175,000 for a studio on the 6th floor, up to $1,005,000 for a penthouse on floor 22. The person that bought it seems to be a musician who was with the band "Airkraft" until they broke up, and now tours with "Johnny and the Motones" while also doing real estate. There are no renderings, but there are a lot of pictures of the Shipyards, and it seems that the plans for that were at least part of the inspiration for this project.
From the website: "Considering the current rents for office and apartment properties, historical sale prices for residential units, the recent announcement of the City of Jacksonville's selection of Shad Khan & Iguana15 to redevelop the Shipyard site (next to the subject), and future expected completions (Broadstone River House (263 units) along Southbank, Bishop Gate (125 units) within the Riverside, and The St. Johns (300 units) along the Southbank) in the subject area, (see Marketability Section), it is not only financially feasible but also, maximally productive to not only complete but also expand the subject's existing unfinished building for commercial and residential"
The St. John? That project died over a decade ago.
Quote from: heekgator on July 23, 2018, 06:03:52 PM
https://www.500eastbay.com/
Discuss.
This website is absolutely atrocious.
It's almost like a parody.
I don't even know what their big line at the end is trying to say.
(https://snag.gy/Pn6osW.jpg)
In less than a week, I've gone from excited about this project to having zero faith in even the hotel portion.
Can't see a universe where Delta is involved.
Facts are scarce, but this is what we do know:
1) Choate has been trying without success to rid themselves of this property for years.
2) Mayor Curry gave Choate an August deadline to sell the property, or else he'd take action against them.
3) Choate finally sold, perhaps out of desperation, with the project to be completed by a yet unknown developer.
4) To even close the $4.6 million sale, Choate had to lend the buyer $3.5 million dollars through a mortgage.
5) Curry has largely discussed the deal through his spokesperson, not directly, and none of the mayoral and DIA back-patting we would expect to see for a "$150 million" riverfront development has taken place.
6) The buyer has conducted zero due diligence on the condition of the existing structure, instead trusting Choate's assurances that everything is just fine and dandy with the abandoned shell
7) The buyer of the property used the phrase "Dave & Busters on steroids" in a real-life interview with the press
8 ) The website reflects a complete lack of understanding about the market, from the misspelling of the St. Johns River, to the referencing of the AAA Suns, to the renders of three different iterations of the Shipyards project as if they are all separate ongoing projects.
Hope I'm wrong, but as each day goes by, I've got a worse feeling about this one.
This is the building experience from the website for the general contractor, Ohde Construction. Only 3 projects of 100 or more units, and there doesn't appear to be any hotel experience.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/1386df_bc6f24ddb67b4ab2b7559ba042b3a7c5~mv2_d_5100_6600_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_512,h_663,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/1386df_bc6f24ddb67b4ab2b7559ba042b3a7c5~mv2_d_5100_6600_s_4_2.webp)
Horrible grammar. No attention to detail. Bring in the Noah's Ark people.
Yeah, I wouldn't get my hopes up on this one.
Funny enough, before this structure popped up into the news again, I came to this website to see if anything new was in the works, with it. I researched all the posts, instead of creating a new one, since there seemed to be several threads. I won't get my hopes up until we see crews on site.
Go ahead and google map the global headquarters of Ohnde Construction.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/11761+Co+Rd+A,+Wausau,+WI+54401/@45.0470295,-89.7847979,3a,75y,179.32h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIk9fy3d_ifzB3lYrnBPD4Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DIk9fy3d_ifzB3lYrnBPD4Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D179.32492%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664!4m5!3m4!1s0x4d554c655414abef:0x2158915e4b3fdabc!8m2!3d45.046213!4d-89.784785
This keeps getting better and better.
In their defense, that photo is from 2008. For all we know, Wausau could be a bustling metropolis by now.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 24, 2018, 02:49:52 PM
In their defense, that photo is from 2008. For all we know, Wausau could be a bustling metropolis by now.
So is the photo they used of DT Jax on their website.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 24, 2018, 02:49:52 PM
In their defense, that photo is from 2008. For all we know, Wausau could be a bustling metropolis by now.
Nice Try, but the Google Satellite view (which I can't find a date for) is the same look.
Reminds me of that scene in Wolf of Wall Street where Jordan Belfort is selling this Pink Sheet stock for the company working in the shed.
Quote from: Gators312 on July 24, 2018, 02:24:07 PM
Go ahead and google map the global headquarters of Ohnde Construction.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/11761+Co+Rd+A,+Wausau,+WI+54401/@45.0470295,-89.7847979,3a,75y,179.32h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sIk9fy3d_ifzB3lYrnBPD4Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DIk9fy3d_ifzB3lYrnBPD4Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D86%26h%3D86%26yaw%3D179.32492%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i3328!8i1664!4m5!3m4!1s0x4d554c655414abef:0x2158915e4b3fdabc!8m2!3d45.046213!4d-89.784785
Obvious the vast HQ building is hidden way down that dirt road behind the shed!
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 24, 2018, 02:49:52 PM
In their defense, that photo is from 2008. For all we know, Wausau could be a bustling metropolis by now.
Legit laughed out loud at this in a meeting.
Between what appears to be a sham transaction involving Berkman II, and the vagrant defacating on downtown businesses, my downtown hope-tracker is in a drawdown.
The LLC is registered to a condo in Daytona Beach at 3855 S Atlantic Ave APT 902, Daytona Beach Shores, FL
https://goo.gl/maps/YYX4FaccV6K2 (https://goo.gl/maps/YYX4FaccV6K2)
They must not have been ready for the website to go public because at least as far as I can tell, the navigation bar has been removed from the desktop version of the site. The other pages are still there, just the links at the top are gone. It's still there on the mobile version though.
Very interesting puzzle here. The website lists contact information to Mitch Viegut, a music producer and real estate investor in Wisconsin. The graphics all seem dated, but the website was purchased in April of this year.
From his website (http://www.viegut.com)
As a member of various real estate investment, Mitch Viegut has Purchased over 100 properties since 1991.
Mitch Viegut has a Wisconsin Brokers license and operates at Vantage Realty LLC
Since purchasing the Little Brown Jug Condos in 1995 we have specialized in condo distressed projects, the latest being the Bella Vista Condos - Lake City Mn, Northern Aire Resort Three Lakes.
Specializing in Commercial Real estate and residential rental properties.
He lists current projects as:
www.bellavista-pepin.com
www.northernaire.com
http://www.vantagewi.com/flambeau-turtle-hideaway-condo.html Flambeau Flowage Cottage
http://www.vantagewi.com/hazen-inn--long-lake-phelps.html Hazen In cottage Phelps
Only one of which links to a project, the others to an agriculture group.
Just inspires confidence all over here /s
Or a complete smoke-screen
I just got a banner ad on The Jaxson homepage for Northernaire ;D
Sad that this will finish first:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/orange/os-lights-on-inside-eyesore-on-i4-story.html
Quote from: dbjax on July 25, 2018, 02:32:04 PM
Very interesting puzzle here. The website lists contact information to Mitch Viegut, a music producer and real estate investor in Wisconsin. The graphics all seem dated, but the website was purchased in April of this year.
From his website (http://www.viegut.com)
As a member of various real estate investment, Mitch Viegut has Purchased over 100 properties since 1991.
Mitch Viegut has a Wisconsin Brokers license and operates at Vantage Realty LLC
Since purchasing the Little Brown Jug Condos in 1995 we have specialized in condo distressed projects, the latest being the Bella Vista Condos - Lake City Mn, Northern Aire Resort Three Lakes.
Specializing in Commercial Real estate and residential rental properties.
He lists current projects as:
www.bellavista-pepin.com
www.northernaire.com
http://www.vantagewi.com/flambeau-turtle-hideaway-condo.html Flambeau Flowage Cottage
http://www.vantagewi.com/hazen-inn--long-lake-phelps.html Hazen In cottage Phelps
Only one of which links to a project, the others to an agriculture group.
Just inspires confidence all over here /s
Or a complete smoke-screen
For whatever it's worth, my rudimentary Googling shows no record of the existence of the below concert-loving Jaxsons, who possess the most delightfully liberal of definitions of terms like "close" and "minutes" and lack even the most basic understanding of punctuation.
The sheer density of grammatical errors in three short quotes (11 by my count!) is staggering.
And Poor Angela, guess you need to be married to get quotation marks.
(https://snag.gy/xylWPT.jpg)
The homepage overall just makes me so happy:
(https://snag.gy/btwhr4.jpg)
Love the pre-recession era picture of the Jacksonville skyline.
Love the vague, sourceless description about "Downtown Jacksonville in one of the nation's top emerging markets." What market are they talking about? Jacksonville? Northeast Florida?
LOVE the line about cheering those heroic, world-famous footballers, the Jaguars.
Love the fact that Berkman 2 has a marina "out your front door."
Love the totally nonsensical line about the sparkling St. John's River... "connecting you to the world." (?)
Love the extra spaces everywhere.
LOVE those final two lines with the randomly added "a": "This is waterfront condo living at its best.... This is a 500 Bay Street Condominiums."
Love how the very bottom of the page just randomly says "Condominiums.":
(https://snag.gy/Cjeulz.jpg)
You can't click it, there's no other context.
Just a random word at the bottom of the page.
P.S. All references to the Shipyards and Iguana are gone. 10-1 odds he got a cease and desist.
Looking forward to seeing how this project ties into Sea Glass Tower.
Will there be synergy?
Thanks.
They are asking for 3 acres from the shipyard project for extra space... which they will get if they move forward.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 26, 2018, 11:39:11 PM
For whatever it's worth, my rudimentary Googling shows no record of the existence of the below concert-loving Jaxsons, who possess the most delightfully liberal of definitions of terms like "close" and "minutes" and lack even the most basic understanding of punctuation.
Well in fairness, I can measure a drive from here to Los Angeles in "minutes". For what it's worth Google estimates the trip at 2,040 minutes.
But seriously, Folks, no one here believes that that website is in anyway linked to the actual developer, do they? I mean, to say that you've already given up hope on the project seems a bit premature to me. Last word from the City was that the developer would be revealing plans and brands in about 3 weeks from the original announcement. We've waited this long. We should probably wait for that...
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 27, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
We've waited this long. We should probably wait for that...
We've sat back in silence 'waiting' for too long now. Not anymore.
#ustoo
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 27, 2018, 10:08:41 AM
But seriously, Folks, no one here believes that that website is in anyway linked to the actual developer, do they? I mean, to say that you've already given up hope on the project seems a bit premature to me. Last word from the City was that the developer would be revealing plans and brands in about 3 weeks from the original announcement. We've waited this long. We should probably wait for that...
Well, it's definitely linked to the buyer.
Name on the deed is 500 East Bay LLC, and the site is owned by 500 East Bay LLC.
I sincerely hope you're right, but the Choate mortgage coupled with Curry's distancing himself from what should be a huge win for the city doesn't leave me feeling great about this project.
Again, I hope to be proven wrong, but I think those three weeks are going to come and go with no word on anything.
I'll take that bet. It is not a condo project (except as it relates to a Delta concept. There's just no way a developer puts out a Condo advertisement right after he announced a hotel and entertainment platform.
We're all abused children so I understand the skepticism. But this site is fiction.
Quote from: downtownbrown on July 27, 2018, 11:18:17 AM
I'll take that bet. It is not a condo project (except as it relates to a Delta concept. There's just no way a developer puts out a Condo advertisement right after he announced a hotel and entertainment platform.
We're all abused children so I understand the skepticism. But this site is fiction.
You've had the best information on this project to date, so I'm taking your optimism as a positive sign, DTB :)
Quote from: KenFSU on July 26, 2018, 11:39:11 PM
P.S. All references to the Shipyards and Iguana are gone. 10-1 odds he got a cease and desist.
It's still there as of today. It's under https://www.500eastbay.com/shipyards-development-info (https://www.500eastbay.com/shipyards-development-info).
It's also mentioned a couple of times under https://www.500eastbay.com/investment-package (https://www.500eastbay.com/investment-package).
^Weird, I guess they just removed the top menu from the site, at least on desktop, and kept the pages up.
https://www.500eastbay.com/
I rest my case...
What is your case? That they make terrible websites? They removed berkman from that site, scanned and pasted in resumes that are crooked, left the TITLE sample text on the page, have an empty bullet point.
...that this site has nothing to do with the actual development of Berkman 2.
Quote from: downtownbrown on August 06, 2018, 10:51:50 AM
...that this site has nothing to do with the actual development of Berkman 2.
Curious what makes you think this?
Berkman 2 was sold to 500 East Bay LLC, through Bob Ohde.
The website was previously listed as registered to 500 East Bay, and now features a scanned copy of Bob Ohde's resume.
What's the alternative to the site having nothing to do with Berkman 2?
1. Berkman 2 doesn't even show up on the site
2. The developer clearly said Hotel, not Condo
3. The site originally said Condo, not Hotel
3. DIA acknowledges Hotel, not Condo
Ohlde may be the guy, but what they've shown so far doesn't reflect what has been said publicly and by the city. My point was that what was originally posted on the site relating to the project was fiction.
Wondering what the impact of Aundra Wallace's new gig will have on the project, if any.
^Gotcha!
I hope you're right.
And I was just thinking the same thing about downtown overall when I heard about Wallace's new gig.
Sounds like he's staying on as CEO of DIA, but certainly his attention is going to be divided between trying to also serve the rest of the county, as well as the surrounding counties.
He's made a lot of things happen, particularly the Trio.
...and he's been a relatively open source of communication over the years. When he says, "relax and wait for the announcement", I relax and wait for the announcement.
For those of us sitting in the back of the room ... what new gig for Mr. Wallace?
Next JaxUSA Partnership President, replacing Jerry Mallot. https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/07/dia-ceo-aundra-wallace-picked-as-next-jaxusa.html
Quote from: KenFSU on August 07, 2018, 01:31:07 PM
^Gotcha!
I hope you're right.
And I was just thinking the same thing about downtown overall when I heard about Wallace's new gig.
Sounds like he's staying on as CEO of DIA, but certainly his attention is going to be divided between trying to also serve the rest of the county, as well as the surrounding counties.
He's made a lot of things happen, particularly the Trio.
According to the Times-Union, the DIA will have to find a new CEO.
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180807/downtown-authoritys-top-executive-moving-to-jax-chamber-post
According to updated Daiky Record story he will also be leaving. Perhaps this story could have its own thread.
So Jerry Mallot is totally freed up now to sell Wildlight and other sprawl product to retirees, and a downtowner is now at the helm of a significant economic development engine for the region. Might that mean JaxUSA will become a more focused proponent of downtown economic vigor, or not necessarily? Is Wallace even a downtowner, or a deal-maker, or someone who comes to understand the requirements of his remit, and works hard to fulfill them?
this should probably be its own thread, but the people mover question was asked, so...
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/08/08/exclusive-a-63-million-innovation-corridor-could.html?ana=e_jac_bn_exclusive&u=WlI%2BuS2dnrpUQEXzA1dC%2FQ0a72b012&t=1533751686&j=83158711
Can't read it. In general, what is being proposed, by who and what's the anticipated timeline?
Ultimate Urban Circulator (U2C) which replaces, and feeds off of, the Skyway. 10 mile track of autonomous vehicles connecting downtown to the stadium and elsewhere.
And an Integrated Data Exchange, which sound like Big Brother technology to track flooding, gun shots, etc.
I imagine the date will be Stardate Somethingsomething. They say by 2021.
Has anyone heard anything more on the plans for this? One of the FTU articles on Berkman 2 alluded to the developer providing details including hotel brand, etc. by now. With talks of a water park, I thought immediately of Great Wolf Lodge but seems like an odd place to put one.
This whole project just seems like a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on August 07, 2018, 05:08:10 PM
So Jerry Mallot is totally freed up now to sell Wildlight and other sprawl product to retirees, and a downtowner is now at the helm of a significant economic development engine for the region. Might that mean JaxUSA will become a more focused proponent of downtown economic vigor, or not necessarily? Is Wallace even a downtowner, or a deal-maker, or someone who comes to understand the requirements of his remit, and works hard to fulfill them?
It definitely can't hurt for Downtown. Aundra Wallace seems to be really well respected.
Maybe he can work with Curry to figure this thing out because I for one am shocked that we haven't heard anything about this in a little while, given how realistic the whole thing seemed.
Aundra's piece in the Daily Record today reiterates that Berkman 2 is real.
I have seen people there working this week. Not sure what they are doing, but they all seem to drive F-150s.
It's Florida. Everyone drives F-150s.
Quote from: downtownbrown on August 23, 2018, 09:38:37 AM
Aundra's piece in the Daily Record today reiterates that Berkman 2 is real.
Link to article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-cawton-report-dia-ceo-aundra-wallace-on-accomplishments-challenges-ahead
Quote from: remc86007 on August 23, 2018, 11:29:37 AM
I have seen people there working this week. Not sure what they are doing, but they all seem to drive F-150s.
Walked past today... there IS work going on there...
Well what are they doing?
Quote from: acme54321 on August 23, 2018, 12:31:08 PM
Well what are they doing?
Not sure... didnt pay that much attention. But there were vehicles and it looks like the site was cleaned up a bit...
Probably helping the current residents pack for relocation.
Quote from: downtownbrown on August 23, 2018, 02:07:28 PM
Probably helping the current residents pack for relocation.
Probably... :o ::)
Lots of new details on what the developer is asking.
$36 million total in public incentives.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/berkman-plaza-ii-owners-seeking-dollar36-million-in-city-incentives-to-redevelop-property
David Cawton has a couple of pictures of the proposal on his Twitter.
Quote from: edjax on September 18, 2018, 04:37:12 PM
David Cawton has a couple of pictures of the proposal on his Twitter.
We got a ferris wheel folks
JBJ free article w/photos.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/09/18/developer-of-berkman-plaza-ii-announces-amusement.html
Quote from: copperfiend on September 18, 2018, 04:44:55 PM
Quote from: edjax on September 18, 2018, 04:37:12 PM
David Cawton has a couple of pictures of the proposal on his Twitter.
We got a ferris wheel folks
Haha, take that other cities! A beautiful view of the St. Johns on one side and the jail on the other!
I always thought that spot would be good for a boardwalk amusement park
$36 million???? What type of experience does this developer have in pulling off what's in the renderings? Let's just hope we aren't the circus act.
Arguably the biggest DIA meeting ever tomorrow. Berkman II, Ambassador Hotel and Apartments, plus the residential tower next to the Aetna building is back from the dead, with Aetna's green light, after units were reduced from 300 to 180. Plus a vote on the courthouse convention center proposals and a discussion about courthouse vs. Shipyards. Oh, and it's Aundra Wallace's final meeting.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/09/18/berkman-plaza-ambassador-hotel-to-seek-millions-in.html
Wallace picked a doozy to go out on. I won't be in attendance but I'll be looking for updates.
Per the developer, the waterpark would be for hotel guests only, not the general public.
I hope they work out the Ambassador/Southbank deals and really do some sious vetting of the Berkman II group.
A water park and a ferris wheel?
Hmmmm, not sure what to think of this.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2018, 07:42:01 PM
$36 million ? ? ? ? What type of experience does this developer have in pulling off what's in the renderings? Let's just hope we aren't the circus act.
Come on, Ennis. Be happy. Not everything has to be density, density, density !!!
https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article203727324.html
Looks as though they have experience, success, and . . . did I hear this right . . . they want to work with a group that builds a Margaritaville out at the Beaches ? ? ?
Man, Big Duval is booming!
Quote from: pierre on September 19, 2018, 08:04:55 AM
A water park and a ferris wheel?
Hmmmm, not sure what to think of this.
The water park language they're using is a bit of a misnomer.
It's not a ticketed public water park, it's a fancier pool system for hotel guests.
The former is a public benefit that potentially draws more locals downtown, so the incentives are slightly easier to rationalize.
For the latter, we'd be publicly subsidizing a private amenity.
Either way, it sounds like the project has the DIA's support, and even though the incentives sound insane on paper,
Family resort w/water park? Can't help but think about Great Wolf Lodge. Seems like an "outside of the box" location though.
https://www.greatwolf.com/
Quote from: RattlerGator on September 19, 2018, 08:42:37 AM
Come on, Ennis. Be happy. Not everything has to be density, density, density !!!
https://www.sunherald.com/news/business/article203727324.html
Looks as though they have experience, success, and . . . did I hear this right . . . they want to work with a group that builds a Margaritaville out at the Beaches ? ? ?
Man, Big Duval is booming!
Can't tell if you're just trolling, but I get so triggered every time your fingers hit the keyboard. This might be a cool project for the beach, but this doesn't belong downtown. We shouldn't be using blocks of our riverfront for a private water park.
I'm not wild about the 'resort-esque' water park idea either. It sounds way to suburban to be DT. The first thing that comes to mind is Nocatee.
Quote from: RattlerGator on September 19, 2018, 08:42:37 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2018, 07:42:01 PM
$36 million ? ? ? ? What type of experience does this developer have in pulling off what's in the renderings? Let's just hope we aren't the circus act.
Come on, Ennis. Be happy. Not everything has to be density, density, density !!!
Lol, I didn't say anything about density. The proposal actually packs a lot of stuff on three acres. I'm just floored by the amount of subsidies requested.
Looking at the proposal on the daily record, I'm fine with it as long as the Riverwalk is still extended to the stadium district and publicly accessible. Downtown needs more things to do for out of towners. This looks like a good way to bring more families downtown rather than business men which I think is great.
Quote from: pierre on September 19, 2018, 08:04:55 AM
A water park and a ferris wheel?
Hmmmm, not sure what to think of this.
I have a better idea ... stay with me on this .. hot dog carts on the Main Street Bridge...
On a positive note, if this does go through, there would actually be a reason to have a gondola system cross the river , especially if the Convention Center is build a the sports complex.
Water park resorts are typically found in places not close to beaches, like the northeast and midwest, and many of them are indoor so that they can provide water activities in the winter. Not sure this really solves a problem, since Florida does not have those issues. Orlando for instance has a few water park resorts, and I'm pretty sure they are all dumps.
That said, if these developers build a DT Jacksonville/Florida caliber resort (not Mississippi) I could see this doing well and bringing a lot of people Downtown that normally wouldn't visit, particularly families. The incentive package is somewhat deceiving, since $20 million of the quoted $36 million is a property tax abatement over a 20 year period. Not like the property is generating much in property taxes now. In fact it has probably resulted in the reduction of taxable value of other properties Downtown. The City is only on the hook for $4.85 million up front. There is an additional $3.5 million for 200 public parking spaces at $17,500 a space, which is below the average cost of construction per space in garages. Presumably the $8.25 million of performance incentives are based on nights booked, meaning the City will recoup more than this in bed and sales taxes from the resort and its guests. Really, the City is not taking a huge risk here.
As much as the inner snob in me hates this project in theory, Downtown's redevelopment can't be solely built on Avocado Toast and Craft Cocktails. I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.
Quote from: CityLife on September 19, 2018, 12:12:05 PMI just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.
This was my first thought when I saw the rendering.
We give away two acres of Shipyards property and subsidize rides and a ferris wheel, but what happens when a hurricane rolls through and the storm surge brings it all down.
Do we just not rebuild, like the rides at the beach after Dora?
Do we stare at the wreckage for two years waiting for FEMA money to roll in.
Does the land revert back to the city if the rides aren't successful and cease operation?
Just saw a news blurb it was approved unanimously as is.
Quote from: CityLife on September 19, 2018, 12:12:05 PM
Water park resorts are typically found in places not close to beaches, like the northeast and midwest, and many of them are indoor so that they can provide water activities in the winter. Not sure this really solves a problem, since Florida does not have those issues. Orlando for instance has a few water park resorts, and I'm pretty sure they are all dumps.
That said, if these developers build a DT Jacksonville/Florida caliber resort (not Mississippi) I could see this doing well and bringing a lot of people Downtown that normally wouldn't visit, particularly families. The incentive package is somewhat deceiving, since $20 million of the quoted $36 million is a property tax abatement over a 20 year period. Not like the property is generating much in property taxes now. In fact it has probably resulted in the reduction of taxable value of other properties Downtown. The City is only on the hook for $4.85 million up front. There is an additional $3.5 million for 200 public parking spaces at $17,500 a space, which is below the average cost of construction per space in garages. Presumably the $8.25 million of performance incentives are based on nights booked, meaning the City will recoup more than this in bed and sales taxes from the resort and its guests. Really, the City is not taking a huge risk here.
As much as the inner snob in me hates this project in theory, Downtown's redevelopment can't be solely built on Avocado Toast and Craft Cocktails. I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.
Yeah, the idea itself isn't as crazy as it may seem. Still, those tax incentives are pretty steep compared to other things we could be incenting.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 19, 2018, 09:27:56 AM
Can't tell if you're just trolling, but I get so triggered every time your fingers hit the keyboard. This might be a cool project for the beach, but this doesn't belong downtown. We shouldn't be using blocks of our riverfront for a private water park.
I never come here to troll.
If you get triggered when my fingers hit the keyboard, good. The slavish takes on here can be amazing. The bitching and moaning and insisting what is and is not proper for downtown locations is off-the-charts insular. You may not care about that. Well and good. It's a message board, right? Need you live in a trigger-free world ? ? ? One with
density, density, density perhaps ? ? ?
I'm genuinely curious, Zissou. Who the hell are you to say what is and is not proper for downtown? And no, I don't give a damn what your professional position may or may not be. Because it's irrelevant. We
*should* be using blocks of our riverfront for projects that add to our city and help to bring people downtown. This project appears to do that. I suspect it's going to have broad support in town.
But here on *this* board?
Well, your comment on what belongs downtown and what doesn't speaks to your limited vision (at least when it comes to this interesting project). Maybe they make this happen, maybe they don't. But I like it.
The
density, density, density line was a (I thought, and still think) a good-natured jab at Ennis. Jacksonville is a unique city; it's not remotely Memphis (another jab at Ennis) but someone proposes something very interesting and unique -- and you can be certain of the responses here. Forced to acknowledge the undeniable uniqueness, and the intrigue of the project (people who previously might likely have insisted NOTHING like this could ever be viable or even proposed for Jacksonville -- maybe, though, in Greenville, Greenville, Greenville!), and it's all . . . man, oh man;
those incentives !!!
Sweet Jesus.
LMAO!
As cringe-worthy and expensive as I find this project to be, I suppose it does add another notch to Downtown's proverbial belt as the entertainment pulse of the region, a designation it has lost or is close to losing because of St. Johns Town Center. If downtown ends up with the equivalent of an Xtreme Action Sports on its waterfront, an attached hotel, and proximity to nearby large-scale sports and concert venues, it's a step in a positive direction. Plenty of thought should be given to the principle of integrating the elements of this project with the streetscape on Bay Street. It's very easy to imagine this as a long wall of additional dead-space, with the hustle and bustle of amusements hidden from view and on the other side of a garage behemoth.
Quote from: CityLife on September 19, 2018, 12:12:05 PM
As much as the inner snob in me hates this project in theory, Downtown's redevelopment can't be solely built on Avocado Toast and Craft Cocktails. I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.
What? Avocado toast is not going to save downtown? Heresy! ;D
Quote from: Kiva on September 19, 2018, 06:46:07 PM
Quote from: CityLife on September 19, 2018, 12:12:05 PM
As much as the inner snob in me hates this project in theory, Downtown's redevelopment can't be solely built on Avocado Toast and Craft Cocktails. I just hope that if it is approved, strict design and maintenance criteria are conditioned in the approval.
What? Avocado toast is not going to save downtown? Heresy! ;D
I hear Bourbon and Bacon is gonna transform the Friendship Fountain.
By my count, we've got an almost comical $5 billion+ worth of projects being discussed between the north and south banks, most requiring public subsidy. Gonna make for an interesting Jaxson post one day.
Berkman II Hotel & Amusement Park
Jacobs Convention Center
Iguana Convention Center
Cordish Lot J Development
Hart Bridge Ramp Removal
Rimrock-Devlin Courthouse Site Development
The District
Laura Street Trio & Garage
Ambassador Hotel & Apartments
Aetna Residential Tower
Jones Furniture Building
Hyatt Place
Hotel Indigo
USS Adams
Emerald Necklace
Main Street Dog Park
Friendship Fountain/Park Improvements
Times-Union Center/CSX Building Node
JEA Headquarters Relocation
(https://i.imgur.com/JNhU5Tt.gif)
Also, the Ambassador approved for $6.4 million and $3.98 million approved for Vestcor's Lofts at Brooklyn:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-pledges-millions-for-redevelopment
(https://i.imgflip.com/2icgw6.jpg)
When is the last time an ask for incentives has been denied by the DIA? Just curious, perhaps I missed it.
Quote from: RattlerGator on September 19, 2018, 05:24:19 PM
Well, your comment on what belongs downtown and what doesn't speaks to your limited vision (at least when it comes to this interesting project). Maybe they make this happen, maybe they don't. But I like it.
You've so thoroughly skewered me with this line, that i've totally changed my perspective on downtown development. A palm tree and a ferris wheel for every corner and let's make the city pay for it all!!
Should be able to get a pretty sweet view of the detention facility from the top of that Ferris wheel.
You guys need to get your verbiage straight.
Per the developer, it is NOT a ferris wheel.
It is an observation wheel, with climate-controlled passenger capsules.
Passengers within said passenger capsules will be able to tap in to the observation wheel's high-speed wifi network.
Why would passengers need to do such a thing?
The world may never know.
Quote from: Todd_Parker on September 20, 2018, 12:05:34 PM
Should be able to get a pretty sweet view of the detention facility from the top of that Ferris wheel.
With the qualifier that I haven't spent much time in or around prisons, am I the only who thinks that the building doesn't necessarily scream prison.
It's pretty nondistinct and quiet from the outside.
Would out of towners necessarily even know what the building is if they weren't actively trying to figure it out?
Personally, I think the prison location problem might be a little overstated.
Our jail looks like a jail. Once you seen one urban jail, you can spot them all a mile away. I think the jail is a non-factor. The capsules will need to be climate controlled because the smell of roasting coffee beans can be pretty strong up there across the street from Maxwell House.
Anyway, do tourist travel to Jax to go to Dave and Busters or Adventure Landing? I have a hard time imagining this place will pull in loads of tourists. The scale of the project is of such where it would need to rely on additional complementing development being nearby. That's one of the reasons it needs nearly as much public money as we lost in the entire Trilegacy Shipyards fiasco.
Do y'all think the jail will be relocated within the next decade? With so much development headed to that area does the jail stay?
No. It's too expensive and there's no development at the moment near it. Just a lot of talk.
The jail is 27 years old. With a big investment like that you hope to get 40 or 50 years out of it at least. While it's poorly placed for the way things have developed now, it wasn't at the time, and we shouldn't be dropping tens of millions of dollars just to move facilities that still have useful life left.
What we *should* do is plan long term for where it should go in the future, so we can adjust our downtown plans accordingly.
Devil's advocate...you could argue removing the eyesore raises the property values of surrounding properties which might offset of the cost over that time to some degree. Probably not $36 million but...
Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2018, 03:00:05 PM
No. It's too expensive and there's no development at the moment near it. Just a lot of talk.
Spending money on the Jail would be a colossal waste at this point. Downtown Jax sucks in too many other places to scapegoat the Jail in its current location.
Any speculation on the brand? While it looks Margaritaville-esqe or Guy Harvey-ish, the Daily Record said that it wasn't a Margaritaville for sure.
Quote from: blizz01 on September 20, 2018, 09:10:54 PM
Any speculation on the brand? While it looks Margaritaville-esqe or Guy Harvey-ish, the Daily Record said that it wasn't a Margaritaville for sure.
Seems far-fetched to me that they've actually land it, but I've been hearing a lot of speculation today that they want Hard Rock.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on September 20, 2018, 10:11:37 PM
I'll go with Holiday Inn.
The guy already has a relationship with them, and there is Holiday Inn water park resort in Orlando.
Holiday Inn Express - so people will be smart after they stay there ...
Guess we don't get the casino with the Hard Rock....
^No casino, but it's going to be Hard Rock.
I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong, but I'm like 99% sure.
Perhaps with a southern rock theme.
Million dollar question is whether it's a legit possibility, or if they're floating an unrealistic pipe dream to secure incentives.
Quote from: KenFSU on September 20, 2018, 11:06:58 PM
^No casino, but it's going to be Hard Rock.
I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong, but I'm like 99% sure.
Perhaps with a southern rock theme.
Million dollar question is whether it's a legit possibility, or if they're floating an unrealistic pipe dream to secure incentives.
Call me a cynic. But I am going with option B.
Here we go!! https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lawsuit-hits-new-owners-of-berkman-plaza-ii
Quote from: pierre on September 21, 2018, 08:09:52 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on September 20, 2018, 11:06:58 PM
^No casino, but it's going to be Hard Rock.
I'll happily eat crow if I'm wrong, but I'm like 99% sure.
Perhaps with a southern rock theme.
Million dollar question is whether it's a legit possibility, or if they're floating an unrealistic pipe dream to secure incentives.
Call me a cynic. But I am going with option B.
All of the incentives requested are performance based and granted post construction. If the City isn't able to craft a development agreement that ensures that a quality development has to be built to actually be paid, it should get out of the incentive business.
Even more convinced today.
The JBJ just randomly posted some site plans for the Berkman inside of a (paid) article about the USS Adams (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/09/20/uss-adams-has-new-downtown-home-other-berkman.html).
The resort will have a swim-up bar and themed restaurants, a la Hard Rock.
And if you look at the areas that I've boxed in yellow (it's hard to see in the screen cap), there's even a Rock Shop in the actual plans, which is, of course, Hard Rock's in-hotel retail store:
(https://www.hardrock.com/cafes/bali-airport/files/2695/HRC_Bali_Airport_Rock_Shop_9038.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/T2XkjL.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/KDAIru.jpg)
Interestingly, the JBJ mentions the branded Hard Rock retail store without actually connecting the dots.
QuoteAmenities
Architectural and design plans drafted by Adache Group Architects provide a hint a hint at some of the other consumer-side amenities expected to be built at 500 E. Bay St., where the Berkman Plaza II has stood half-built for more than a decade.
Those plans include hotel amenities such as a lazy river, a swim-up bar, a fitness and spa room, 12,786 square feet for restaurant space, 8,239 square feet for meeting space, a 2,500-square-foot ballroom and a "rock shop" retail space on which they would partner with a major hotelier.
The developers, who are headquartered in Biloxi, are surely familiar with the brand as well, as Hard Rock sits right down the street from their Margaritaville hotel.
(https://snag.gy/il5nuj.jpg)
Hard Rock's gotta be the target.
If they add a southern rock museum to it, I won't hate it as much.
The Orlando resort aside, San Diego has a nice Hotel only Hard Rock. Never been to the one in Daytona. The amusement component is throwing me though.
Solid work SherlockFSU.
A Hard Rock with swim up bars and lazy river might actually activate Downtown more than any other project in the pipeline, as crazy as that may sound. Other than golf trips for guys in PVB/Amelia and St. Augustine for girls, Jax isn't really on the bachelor/bachelorette or birthday party circuit. Nashville's entertainment industry is practically built on this niche now. Not saying that a Hard Rock would even remotely pull in partiers like Nashville, New Orleans, Key West, Vegas, etc, but I do think it would bring a lot of people from within a few hours for weekend getaways and party weekends. You would also have a lot of locals, especially from the beaches and suburbs stay here and there as well, particularly when there are events. I'm sure some may not like the influx of Brad's, Chad's, and Bubba's, but virtually every major entertainment district in the country has their share of bros.
I also think there would be synergy between the hotel and Florida Theater, Daily's, the Arena, and festivals like Jazz Fest and Rockville. A few of the tropical Hard Rock Hotels have weekend long concerts/festivals hosted by bands, notably Dead and Co and My Morning Jacket. If tied to the Southern music angle like CZ suggested, there are all kinds of possibilities for festivals, events, and partnerships.
In my opinion, a Hard Rock hotel, if designed, executed, and managed well has a FAR greater chance of success than a convention center in DT Jax.
I know there's a killer 'Lazy river on the river' joke, but I just can't pull it all together. I'll keep work-shopping it.
I am confused. Somewhere upthread, someone said the 'water park' would only be for Hotel Guests. How does that related to the "swim up bar"? Are these separate amenities?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on September 21, 2018, 11:52:29 AM
I am confused. Somewhere upthread, someone said the 'water park' would only be for Hotel Guests. How does that related to the "swim up bar"? Are these separate amenities?
Swim up bar/pool would likely be only for hotel guests...but I could see them charging admission on weekends for pool parties. Pretty common in South Florida, Vegas, and similar spots.
(https://static1.squarespace.com/static/559f2ba7e4b01f5eb3cc88b6/5aabf178352f53f989bf0923/5b572a058a922dbc85098e33/1532442290907/aeriel+footptint.jpg?format=1500w)
http://www.dlwarchitects.com/hard-rock-hotel-daytona-fl/
I haven't stepped in a Hard Rock in over a decade. Do they include museums themed around local music heritage?
I am familiar with the project in Daytona though. It's located on one of past transportation planning study corridor I was involved with a few years back. That Hard Rock just opened and is a replacement for the bigger project that failed to materialize a mile or two south. It's an old hotel that was remodeled without a Hard Rock Cafe.
Personally, I'm not exactly sold on the viability of the Berkman for what's proposed but being combined with the USS Adams should help both uses out considerably. Combined and not focusing on anything else, they are a good example clustering, complementing uses within a compact setting. They're also within a half block of the east edge of the Elbow. Years ago, there used to be a restaurant in the ground level of Berkman I. Get something back in that space and it will help with connectivity to the Elbow. Assuming the mini amusement park fails, I guess it could revamped as a mini-Kids Kampus type of environment. I doubt money would be made off of it directly, but Kid's Kampus did bring families in consistently. So at the very least, such an environment would add foot traffic in the immediate vicinity.
Quote from: CityLife on September 21, 2018, 11:38:28 AM
In my opinion, a Hard Rock hotel, if designed, executed, and managed well has a FAR greater chance of success than a convention center in DT Jax.
I think we've screwed up the convention center situation. We're already in the convention business. All we really need is an exhibition hall (we won't die with a +100k square foot space) connected to the Hyatt, so we can get it out of terminal and restore that property into what it was originally designed to be. Heck, this (if successful) would actually validate a no-frills space at the courthouse site. However, somehow, we've turned what should be basic and no frills into a monster with a billion dollar price thing.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2018, 11:57:16 AM
I haven't stepped in a Hard Rock in over a decade. Do they include museums themed around local music heritage?
Not museums in the sense that many of us would have wanted to see for the city's Southern Rock heritage, no. But their properties do tend to make local music history a point of emphasis in the artifacts they display.
Anybody hearing anything about Berkman lately? Rumors are that there are multiple lawsuits happening, including against the developer who sold rights that he had no authority to sell, or something like that.
Quote from: downtownbrown on October 23, 2018, 11:51:59 AM
Anybody hearing anything about Berkman lately? Rumors are that there are multiple lawsuits happening, including against the developer who sold rights that he had no authority to sell, or something like that.
Haven't heard anything new on progress, but the lawsuit is definitely a thing. From my understanding, Choate - probably due to pressure from Curry - was talking to multiple parties in succession when trying to offload Berkman. One of the parties, Cambridge, hired a consulting firm, TTSM, to help close the deal. The consulting firm claims to have done a ton of due diligence, appraisal, and legal work for Cambridge in exchange for a promised equity stake on the resulting new development at Berkman 2. Something happened, not sure what, that made Choate sell to Ohde instead, and TTSM is claiming that Ohde somehow leveraged their due diligence in order to get financing of his own.
Personally, it sounds like a junk lawsuit to me - Shad Khan and Rimrock/Devlin were originally charged in the suit as well - but I'm sure it's causing some headaches.
I heard that Ohde is the bad guy. Weaseled himself into an area he was not competent in, and resold his contract, or something. His "website" if you can call it that, would support that notion.
Quote from: downtownbrown on October 23, 2018, 02:25:06 PM
I heard that Ohde is the bad guy. Weaseled himself into an area he was not competent in, and resold his contract, or something. His "website" if you can call it that, would support that notion.
Yikes.
On paper, Ohde doesn't necessarily seem qualified to take on a project of this scale.
Quote from: downtownbrown on October 23, 2018, 02:25:06 PM
I heard that Ohde is the bad guy. Weaseled himself into an area he was not competent in, and resold his contract, or something. His "website" if you can call it that, would support that notion.
Little known fact, Charlie Kelly and Uncle Jack from It's Always Sunny designed this guy's website.
https://www.500eastbay.com/
Quote from: CityLife on October 23, 2018, 04:26:22 PM
Quote from: downtownbrown on October 23, 2018, 02:25:06 PM
I heard that Ohde is the bad guy. Weaseled himself into an area he was not competent in, and resold his contract, or something. His "website" if you can call it that, would support that notion.
Little known fact, Charlie Kelly and Uncle Jack from It's Always Sunny designed this guy's website.
https://www.500eastbay.com/
Designing websites? That's Charlie work!
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20181102/jacksonville-in-line-to-ride-observation-wheel-trend
Quote from: KenFSU on November 04, 2018, 06:38:34 PM
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20181102/jacksonville-in-line-to-ride-observation-wheel-trend
No. Just, no.
Again - another magic bullet project that will never deliver the results City officials say it will. Jax needs to get the fundamentals and urban framework right first - that IS the magic bullet that will spur these spin-off developments.
Downtown Jax isn't dead because we don't have a Ferris Wheel. We don't have a Ferris Wheel because downtown Jax is dead.
Quote from: Kerry on November 04, 2018, 10:04:56 PM
Again - another magic bullet project that will never deliver the results City officials say it will. Jax needs to get the fundamentals and urban framework right first - that IS the magic bullet that will spur these spin-off developments.
Downtown Jax isn't dead because we don't have a Ferris Wheel. We don't have a Ferris Wheel because downtown Jax is dead.
I don't always agree with your opinions. On this one though, we're in 100% alignment.
I'd describe Jacksonville going after the Ferris wheel like the kind who's just not cool picking up on 10 year old fashion trend.
What's the point of doing anything at 200 feet in downtown? It will be half as tall as the surrounding buildings. I'd rather have the Seaglass tower or whatever it's called than this. My office is about 400 feet in the air. It's pretty neat, but I doubt many people would pay $10 a pop to have this view.
In Seattle, I went to Smith Tower and it was excellent. It's a historic building with a top floor bar and balcony area. There is a tour, but once you're at the top (480 feet up) you just hang out, grab a drink, and relax. I probably spent an hour up there and bought a couple beers. I much preferred it to the space needle. We don't have any historic building stock that tall, but I'd be behind something like that being done over anything else
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 05, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
What's the point of doing anything at 200 feet in downtown? It will be half as tall as the surrounding buildings. I'd rather have the Seaglass tower or whatever it's called than this. My office is about 400 feet in the air. It's pretty neat, but I doubt many people would pay $10 a pop to have this view.
In Seattle, I went to Smith Tower and it was excellent. It's a historic building with a top floor bar and balcony area. There is a tour, but once you're at the top (480 feet up) you just hang out, grab a drink, and relax. I probably spent an hour up there and bought a couple beers. I much preferred it to the space needle. We don't have any historic building stock that tall, but I'd be behind something like that being done over anything else
I'd take the top of the JEA building - not amazing but it would work. We do have the River Club but it's not public.
Quote from: Steve on November 05, 2018, 09:25:32 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 05, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
What's the point of doing anything at 200 feet in downtown? It will be half as tall as the surrounding buildings. I'd rather have the Seaglass tower or whatever it's called than this. My office is about 400 feet in the air. It's pretty neat, but I doubt many people would pay $10 a pop to have this view.
In Seattle, I went to Smith Tower and it was excellent. It's a historic building with a top floor bar and balcony area. There is a tour, but once you're at the top (480 feet up) you just hang out, grab a drink, and relax. I probably spent an hour up there and bought a couple beers. I much preferred it to the space needle. We don't have any historic building stock that tall, but I'd be behind something like that being done over anything else
I'd take the top of the JEA building - not amazing but it would work. We do have the River Club but it's not public.
Used to be able to eat or drink at the top of the JEA building. The old Embers Restaurant, it even revolved. Nice view.
Quote from: Steve on November 05, 2018, 09:01:14 AM
I'd describe Jacksonville going after the Ferris wheel like the kind who's just not cool picking up on 10 year old fashion trend.
Jacksonville just put on an Ed Hardy shirt
I just hope the city doesn't end up subsidizing the construction or operation of a $20 million ferris wheel, and that we've got some kind of a smart agreement in place with the property owner in the event that the wheel shuts down.
Continues to blow my mind that we've got all these grand, competing plans that we're publicly subsidizing stretching from the Times-Union Center, to the Landing, to the Berkman, to the old Courthouse, to the Shipyards, to Lot J, to Met Park, across the river to the District and Friendship Fountain, with very little vision about how they all work together and complement, rather than cannibalize, each other.
Someone needs to get Curry, Shad Khan/Mark Lamping, Lori Boyer, Elements, Jacobs, Rimrock/Devlin, Cordish, the Berkman team, the USS Adams group, Groundworks Jax, JEA, Steve Atkins, and whoever is in charge of the Met Park land swap together and say, "We're pumping or potentially pumping hundreds of millions of public money into your projects, how do they all fit together into a cohesive whole, greater than the sum of their parts, to make downtown Jacksonville a more vibrant place."
It's crazy to hear Curry talk about how public money is only given if he's confident it will ROI, yet nobody has the faintest clue what's going on with half of these proposed developments. $36 million was committed to Berkman without a firm decision as to whether a convention center would be built next door. $25 million is committed to the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps without a definite plan for Met Park or Lot J, or even a full understanding of the environmental situation at those properties.
These seem like important questions to answer.
The viability of a $20 million LED ferris wheel is a drastically different story with a convention center, naval museum, and signature Veterans park at the Shipyards bookending it than it is with a midrise Rimrock apartment complex and a polluted industrial site on opposite ends.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on November 05, 2018, 09:52:07 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 05, 2018, 09:25:32 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 05, 2018, 09:04:12 AM
What's the point of doing anything at 200 feet in downtown? It will be half as tall as the surrounding buildings. I'd rather have the Seaglass tower or whatever it's called than this. My office is about 400 feet in the air. It's pretty neat, but I doubt many people would pay $10 a pop to have this view.
In Seattle, I went to Smith Tower and it was excellent. It's a historic building with a top floor bar and balcony area. There is a tour, but once you're at the top (480 feet up) you just hang out, grab a drink, and relax. I probably spent an hour up there and bought a couple beers. I much preferred it to the space needle. We don't have any historic building stock that tall, but I'd be behind something like that being done over anything else
I'd take the top of the JEA building - not amazing but it would work. We do have the River Club but it's not public.
Used to be able to eat or drink at the top of the JEA building. The old Embers Restaurant, it even revolved. Nice view.
I'd second this. If Jax wants an observation deck (well it has one at the top of the city hall annex but we're about to blow it up), the former rotating restaurant space at the top of the JEA tower has a pretty nice view.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/History/Downtown-Center/i-vnMvtc6/1/3a7c2d70/L/P1480473-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/History/Downtown-Center/i-QS27QHT/1/f9308ac9/L/P1480472-L.jpg)
More photos: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-sep-on-top-of-the-universal-marion-building
Quote from: KenFSU on November 05, 2018, 01:20:14 PM
The viability of a $20 million LED ferris wheel is a drastically different story with a convention center, naval museum, and signature Veterans park at the Shipyards bookending it than it is with a midrise Rimrock apartment complex and a polluted industrial site on opposite ends.
Very true....although I still think this thing is a pipe dream.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 05, 2018, 01:20:14 PM
I just hope the city doesn't end up subsidizing the construction or operation of a $20 million ferris wheel, and that we've got some kind of a smart agreement in place with the property owner in the event that the wheel shuts down.
Continues to blow my mind that we've got all these grand, competing plans that we're publicly subsidizing stretching from the Times-Union Center, to the Landing, to the Berkman, to the old Courthouse, to the Shipyards, to Lot J, to Met Park, across the river to the District and Friendship Fountain, with very little vision about how they all work together and complement, rather than cannibalize, each other.
Someone needs to get Curry, Shad Khan/Mark Lamping, Lori Boyer, Elements, Jacobs, Rimrock/Devlin, Cordish, the Berkman team, the USS Adams group, Groundworks Jax, JEA, Steve Atkins, and whoever is in charge of the Met Park land swap together and say, "We're pumping or potentially pumping hundreds of millions of public money into your projects, how do they all fit together into a cohesive whole, greater than the sum of their parts, to make downtown Jacksonville a more vibrant place."
It's crazy to hear Curry talk about how public money is only given if he's confident it will ROI, yet nobody has the faintest clue what's going on with half of these proposed developments. $36 million was committed to Berkman without a firm decision as to whether a convention center would be built next door. $25 million is committed to the removal of the Hart Bridge ramps without a definite plan for Met Park or Lot J, or even a full understanding of the environmental situation at those properties.
These seem like important questions to answer.
The viability of a $20 million LED ferris wheel is a drastically different story with a convention center, naval museum, and signature Veterans park at the Shipyards bookending it than it is with a midrise Rimrock apartment complex and a polluted industrial site on opposite ends.
THIS!!!!!
On top of that, there is a ton the City could all on its own to make downtown more vibrant.
Crazy would be expect people spending other people's money to have a vision beyond how they're going to spend other people's money. They don't have skin in the game. That overarching vision would create more problems than it solves, from their point of view.
Quote from: pierre on November 05, 2018, 01:14:34 PM
Quote from: Steve on November 05, 2018, 09:01:14 AM
I'd describe Jacksonville going after the Ferris wheel like the kind who's just not cool picking up on 10 year old fashion trend.
Jacksonville just put on an Ed Hardy shirt
That made me laugh!
I know several here don't agree but I think not having a City Manager is the biggest problem for Jax. There is simply no continuity between Mayor's, especially in a city so equally divided like Jax. The second biggest problem is too many council members. We should only have about 8 of them. It makes the city too Balkanized. Members only have to represent their little pocket. We have the efficiency of the US Congress and the result is a plutocracy running most of the big ideas (and big surprise that they all need millions in tax dollars to make their ideas work).
JAX has a city manager, they just aren't called that.
Quote from: Kerry on November 08, 2018, 07:47:02 AM
I know several here don't agree but I think not having a City Manager is the biggest problem for Jax. There is simply no continuity between Mayor's, especially in a city so equally divided like Jax. The second biggest problem is too many council members. We should only have about 8 of them. It makes the city too Balkanized. Members only have to represent their little pocket. We have the efficiency of the US Congress and the result is a plutocracy running most of the big ideas (and big surprise that they all need millions in tax dollars to make their ideas work).
I just think the structure of the government is secondary to the people leading it. I've seen Jacksonville's government work really well, and I've seen it work really crappy. Same structure.
Plus there's no reason the Chief Admin Officer can't play that role - day to day he is that person. There's no reason he needs to be dumped each administration. Sam Mousa was originally in that role in 2000, back in Delaney's admin. Prior to Sam Mousa was Lex Hester, who was CAO from 1991 to when he passed away in 2000.
Peyton chose to keep Mousa when elected in 2003, but then he resigned 13 days in (that was my sign we were in for a rough patch in local government). Alvin Brown tried this crazy org structure that never worked.
In short - we had Peyton and Brown that frankly didn't go a good job as mayor. The structure wasn't the reason. Aside from their 12 years, we had Ed Austin for 4, Delaney for 8, and Curry for at least 4. Between those 16 years, there's been 2 CAOs - and the only reason for the change was the first one died.
The size of the council is a little larger, yes. Part of that comes from 5 at large. My understanding is these were the seats from the old Duval County Commission pre-consolidation. Personally, I'd dump the at large and add a 15th district somewhere.
Quote from: vicupstate on November 08, 2018, 09:02:08 AM
JAX has a city manager, they just aren't called that.
Bingo - they just call it Chief Administrative Officer.
Not even close to the same thing.
Quote from: Kerry on November 09, 2018, 08:19:05 AM
Not even close to the same thing.
It's the same in the duties, but not the same in that the CAO is appointed by and reports to the Mayor. That means they can change as frequently as the mayor does, so the continuity you get with most city managers is lost. That said, you've previously praised Miami as a place where the city manager model supposedly works. However, their city manager is appointed by the mayor and is effectively the same as Jax's CAO position. There are also cases where the city manager is micromanaged by the council and the mayor has no real power, so it's not like it's a perfect system.
Also, while our council may be too big, getting rid of the at-large seats would be a bad idea. Those are the council members who are responsible to the whole city. Several of the beat council members are at-large members, and they may not have been elected as district council members.
Quote from: Kerry on November 09, 2018, 08:19:05 AM
Not even close to the same thing.
How is it not? Every place I've seen a city manager, it's been one of a couple ways:
1. The City Manager reports to (and serves at the pleasure of the Mayor)
2. The City Manager reports to (and serves at the pleasure of the City Council/Commission)
3. The City Manager is actually elected by the citizens. At this point the City Manager is basically a Mayor or Deputy Mayor and is not in the spirit of what you're talking about.
Either way their boss is either the citizens, or an elected body/official.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 09, 2018, 08:47:41 AM
Also, while our council may be too big, getting rid of the at-large seats would be a bad idea. Those are the council members who are responsible to the whole city. Several of the beat council members are at-large members, and they may not have been elected as district council members.
I hear your point on At Large, and yes some of the best have been At Large. So have some crappy ones (just like a district council member). My problem is that there's much less accountability. They can basically do nothing and because they don't have watchdogs in their district monitoring them as close, they will get re-elected so long as they play nice with the party.
Quote from: Steve on November 09, 2018, 08:58:31 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 09, 2018, 08:47:41 AM
Also, while our council may be too big, getting rid of the at-large seats would be a bad idea. Those are the council members who are responsible to the whole city. Several of the beat council members are at-large members, and they may not have been elected as district council members.
I hear your point on At Large, and yes some of the best have been At Large. So have some crappy ones (just like a district council member). My problem is that there's much less accountability. They can basically do nothing and because they don't have watchdogs in their district monitoring them as close, they will get re-elected so long as they play nice with the party.
I don't think that's accurate. The district council members are much less accountable because they only have to please their district; at-large council members have the entire county watching them. We'd still be stuck with Kim Daniels if she had been a district council member (I mean we are still stuck with her, in an even higher district seat that's gerrymandered so that she'll never lose.)
Quote from: Steve on November 09, 2018, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: Kerry on November 09, 2018, 08:19:05 AM
Not even close to the same thing.
How is it not? Every place I've seen a city manager, it's been one of a couple ways:
1. The City Manager reports to (and serves at the pleasure of the Mayor)
2. The City Manager reports to (and serves at the pleasure of the City Council/Commission)
3. The City Manager is actually elected by the citizens. At this point the City Manager is basically a Mayor or Deputy Mayor and is not in the spirit of what you're talking about.
Either way their boss is either the citizens, or an elected body/official.
What most people are talking about when they talk about the City Manager style of government is 2, where the manager reports to the council. 1 - which is the system in Miami - is effectively the same as Jacksonville's CAO position under a different name. 3 is the worst of the lot - it's basically creating a redundant second mayor or mini-mayor and it's still subject to the political ties. You might as well just have one strong mayor.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 09, 2018, 10:29:51 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 09, 2018, 08:58:31 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 09, 2018, 08:47:41 AM
Also, while our council may be too big, getting rid of the at-large seats would be a bad idea. Those are the council members who are responsible to the whole city. Several of the beat council members are at-large members, and they may not have been elected as district council members.
I hear your point on At Large, and yes some of the best have been At Large. So have some crappy ones (just like a district council member). My problem is that there's much less accountability. They can basically do nothing and because they don't have watchdogs in their district monitoring them as close, they will get re-elected so long as they play nice with the party.
I don't think that's accurate. The district council members are much less accountable because they only have to please their district; at-large council members have the entire county watching them. We'd still be stuck with Kim Daniels if she had been a district council member (I mean we are still stuck with her, in an even higher district seat that's gerrymandered so that she'll never lose.)
Not sure I agree. Here's my point: the average Jacksonville resident may or may not be able to name their council member. I can guarantee you they can't name all 5 at large ones. Truthfully, I don't always remember who they are depending on how much sleep I've gotten the night before (the life of twin babies!). If I, as someone more engaged than most, doesn't always remember who the at large members are, how could the average person know if they're doing a good job.
On the other hand, that's the point of a district council member - serve your constituents. You aren't elected to represent 900k residents, you're representing ~60k residents.
Kin Daniels is an exception because she's infamous. That's a different level of crazy there. I'm talking about the person who doesn't make a negative name for him or herself, but doesn't really do anything either.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 09, 2018, 10:33:32 AM
Quote from: Steve on November 09, 2018, 08:57:00 AM
Quote from: Kerry on November 09, 2018, 08:19:05 AM
Not even close to the same thing.
How is it not? Every place I've seen a city manager, it's been one of a couple ways:
1. The City Manager reports to (and serves at the pleasure of the Mayor)
2. The City Manager reports to (and serves at the pleasure of the City Council/Commission)
3. The City Manager is actually elected by the citizens. At this point the City Manager is basically a Mayor or Deputy Mayor and is not in the spirit of what you're talking about.
Either way their boss is either the citizens, or an elected body/official.
What most people are talking about when they talk about the City Manager style of government is 2, where the manager reports to the council. 1 - which is the system in Miami - is effectively the same as Jacksonville's CAO position under a different name. 3 is the worst of the lot - it's basically creating a redundant second mayor or mini-mayor and it's still subject to the political ties. You might as well just have one strong mayor.
Agree completely. That's the point though.....in #2 sure it's a body of people that have to decide to hire a new City Manager versus 1 person, but it's still subject to political winds if all involved want it to be subject to political winds. I think it's great that Austin/Delaney/Curry have had a total of 2 CAOs.
Just in case anyone was curious, if you go to the www.500eastbay.com (http://www.500eastbay.com) website, they changed the website to say "Riverlife" at the top. At first it seems like it could be an interesting name for this project, but that is not the case at all.
They re-purposed the website in an attempt to win a failing city-owned retail and commercial project in Wausau, WI that had been stalled since spring because the developer had financial issues. The Wausau city council gave the previous developer a strict deadline to restart construction, and when they failed to restart, the city removed the developer, and opened it bidding to complete it. Several companies bid on it, including Ohde Construction. The city has had it narrowed down to Ohde and one other company since October, but hasn't made a decision yet as of December 10th.
As for the 500eastbay website, it was made on Wix, which is a free website builder. Their only cost was the domain name. You would think they would just build another free website and pay a few bucks for another domain name instead of using the website for a project they already have.
Quote from: Jax-Nole on December 18, 2018, 05:12:56 PM
Just in case anyone was curious, if you go to the www.500eastbay.com (http://www.500eastbay.com) website, they changed the website to say "Riverlife" at the top. At first it seems like it could be an interesting name for this project, but that is not the case at all.
They re-purposed the website in an attempt to win a failing city-owned retail and commercial project in Wausau, WI that had been stalled since spring because the developer had financial issues. The Wausau city council gave the previous developer a strict deadline to restart construction, and when they failed to restart, the city removed the developer, and opened it bidding to complete it. Several companies bid on it, including Ohde Construction. The city has had it narrowed down to Ohde and one other company since October, but hasn't made a decision yet as of December 10th.
As for the 500eastbay website, it was made on Wix, which is a free website builder. Their only cost was the domain name. You would think they would just build another free website and pay a few bucks for another domain name instead of using the website for a project they already have.
What a scam.
I'm shocked given how well buttoned up this thing appeared to be from the start.
heard a rumor that Ohde is out. Sued by the other parties. And that finally the way is clear to take on actual investors.
?? Investors? I thought a development team had already swooped in with the cash to turn this site into an urban Disneyland.
So what does this mean for the ferris wheel, lazy river and hotel project as a whole? Is this thing happening or not?
Yeah. No.
The same rumor had the place become all condos. So take it for what it's worth...
In the roughly 25 minutes it took the DIA to approve a $56 million incentive package and 3-acre property gift (they are buying the land at a reduced cost) for a property that has sat vacant for over a decade (and with no credible interest from the outside world until just before this summer started) the following was identified:
-17-story building with 340 hotel rooms (192 guest rooms, 75 executive suites and 73 junior suites), garage with 631 parking spaces that would also provide access for the USS Adams museum (200 spots dedicated for short-term parking... via a parking grant paid for by the City) and a 'family entertainment center';
-thrill rides for teenagers, 200 foot tall ferris wheel and 36 6-passenger gondolas;
-Not a Margaritaville Hotel;
-KKR & Co as their equity partner;
-Mississippi-based Lori and Greg Stewart (who have built hotels, apartments and condos and also own a construction company for said projects... also to note, Greg Stewart is currently being sued for a failed condo project in Louisiana), Chicago-based Jim Bergman (primarily an affordable housing builder) and Virginia-based David Roos (primarily a finance guy) as principals for the development;
-General and non-specific allusions as to what their equity partner wants from a financing perspective
It should also be noted that when a board member hesitated, wanted more details and possible deferral to another meeting due to the sheer size of the incentive package (the developer even admitted that they've probably only penciled out less than 25% of the project scope and design)... he was railroaded with a sense of extreme urgency that this massive package needed to be approved now.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 19, 2018, 09:35:27 AM
?? Investors? I thought a development team had already swooped in with the cash to turn this site into an urban Disneyland.
So what does this mean for the ferris wheel, lazy river and hotel project as a whole? Is this thing happening or not?
QuoteThe same rumor had the place become all condos. So take it for what it's worth...
It sounds like they are going to build a resort/tourist destination, with the existing building becoming a time share condo.
Rumor update:
1. There was a lawsuit
2. It has been settled
3. A new redevelopment agreement between the owners and the city is being finalized
4. CC will vote on it early next year
5. As such, there is no timeline now
6. The investors are in place
7. The plans are expected to remain unchanged from the ones presented to DIA a while back
Lawsuit dismissed....
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lawsuit-over-berkman-plaza-ii-dismissed-lifts-cloud-over-redevelopment
Wow. That increases the chances of this project getting off the ground from 0% all the way up to 0%.
Time to dust off the Mooneyhan plans... ::)
A Mooneyhan is running for city council. Is that the same person? If so, lets definitely give him access to the city budget.
Quote from: Westside Guy on January 17, 2019, 06:01:26 PM
Wow. That increases the chances of this project getting off the ground from 0% all the way up to 0%.
That might be just a tad cynical. Anyway, hoping for the best.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 18, 2019, 09:05:24 AM
A Mooneyhan is running for city council. Is that the same person? If so, lets definitely give him access to the city budget.
Good god I hope not...
This thing apparently is moving forward:
Quote
$36 million incentives deal to turn Berkman II into entertainment center going to City Council
The Downtown Investment Authority and 500 East Bay LLC are seeking City Council approval of a development agreement to provide $36 million in incentives for developers to convert the partially constructed Berkman II condominium along the Downtown Northbank into an entertainment center.
The project is estimated at $122 million. Ordinance 2019-151 is scheduled to be introduced Tuesday night.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dollar36-million-incentives-deal-to-turn-berkman-ii-into-entertainment-center-going-to-city-council
told ya
So, as part of this arrangement, we'd be selling the below 2.8 acres of Shipyards property to 500 East Bay for $1.6 million.
(https://snag.gy/6AmULI.jpg)
The Jags technically hold redevelopment rights over that property, I wonder if they'll have to sign off on the land sale. They've been very vocal about the need to see Berkman II redeveloped, so hopefully it wouldn't be an issue, but if this thing gets closer, it will be interesting to see how they react.
As a reminder, the last time they presented their vision for this specific parcel, it was flagged as residential:
(https://snag.gy/g9G6cY.jpg)
Based on 500 East Bay's last rendering for the site, which they fully admitted was not final, here's what they have planned for those ~3 acres east of Berkman II.
(https://snag.gy/MBWzkC.jpg)
On the surface, it feels like they're under-utilizing that plot by just having a parking garage, outdoor rides, and maybe part of the swimming pool.
But if you look at the contamination map, that area of land has some of the heaviest concentration of lead and arsenic of the entire Shipyards site. Frankly I'm shocked that 500 East Bay is even willing to pay $1.6 million for it in the condition it's in.
(https://snag.gy/xMXmn1.jpg)
Environmental standards are obviously much less stringest for parking and recreation than they are for residential or commercial, so if the developer was able to turn this parcel into a successful, vibrant part of the riverwalk without the need for ~$10 million in environmental remediation, it really wouldn't be that bad of a deal for the city.
I'm sure Khan will support this 100%. All he wanted was Berkman to be resolved one way or another. And a hotel works for him very nicely.
I looked forward to 5 years from now when nothing has happened with Berkman II and we all get a good laugh at the photos of water slides and ferris wheels.
City incentives for downtown resort hotel get scrutiny
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190311/city-incentives-for-downtown-resort-hotel-get-scrutiny
From the article, I see the hotel is going to be Watermark Jacksonville. I assume this project is very similar to Barrington Development's project in Biloxi, MS. There they are renovating an old senior housing building into Watermark Suites Biloxi, while also renovating another building into a Margaritaville Hotel, with the entertainment center including Ferris wheel in between. Obviously, the Margaritaville part won't be applicable here since there is only one building to renovate/finish, plus there is already the Margaritaville hotel being built at Jax Beach.
Great examples of why nothing ever happens. Danny Becton says we sound "desperate". The shell has been sitting there for 12 years with no one beating down the door. Damn right we're desperate.
Greg Anderson points out that we've never done incentives before. What? And if this really is a novel approach, why doesn't Mr. Anderson understand that new thinking is required to move the ball?
Schellenberger wonders what's in it for the average citizen. It's a question too stupid to answer. It's a matter of having a downtown or NOT having a downtown. Something has got to break the log jam. Sitting around with your clamp on the purse will guarantee more of the same.
In general, something on the edge like Berkman II isn't making or breaking downtown. However, if something positive can happen there, efforts should certainly be made to get redevelopment off the ground.
However, $36 mill is a ton of money to toss on a risky project, so there's nothing wrong with vetting it and the group requesting the public to subsidize their hotel operation at the expense of other private businesses they'll be competing against. Seriously, what happens if the hotel, miniature amusement park and a ferris wheel next to a county jail go belly up? In reality, that's more likely to happen then tourist from all over flocking in.
There are always reasons to do nothing.
Vetting to make sure you don't lose your shirt and doing nothing are two different things. I'm not seeing the big issue here. It doesn't seem like anyone is saying kill the project. I actually wish they'd seriously vet more of the recent expenditures being tossed around in the name of downtown redevelopment.
Quote from: downtownbrown on March 12, 2019, 10:11:46 AM
Great examples of why nothing ever happens. Danny Becton says we sound "desperate". The shell has been sitting there for 12 years with no one beating down the door. Damn right we're desperate.
The more accurate answer is that we seriously don't know what we're doing. We've defied the logical approach to urban redevelopment for so many years and instead of taking note of how that negatively impacts things, we blanketly assume things sit decayed for over a decade because there's no market. As a result, we then get desperate by tossing god awful sums of public money at things that may not necessarily move the redevelopment needle one way or the other. Unfortunately, this has been a consistent pattern for decades. If we can take a step back and understand how local strategies and politics have a direct impact on facilitating or limiting our market rate opportunities, I think taxpayers and downtown would be better off and sites like Berkman II would not sit empty for decades.
$36 million is a lot of money (heck, you could buy and demolish TWO Jacksonville Landing's for that much). However, the bulk of the funds given would not be generated in the first place, without the project, and Jacksonville IS desperate. I would probably go forward with it with the condition that if it fails, the city gets complete title to the parking garage. A 630 space garage would cost most of the 18.5 million left anyway. I would make sure this company had some substantial financial heft though. A recession can't be too far off.
I don't like subsidizing the resort's operations. Providing property tax relief and funds for a public parking deck/river walk expansion is one thing, but once the improvements are in place, the business should not rely on cash injections from the city's operating budget.
"Under the proposal, the city would give the developer a $3.25 million grant after the resort is built and pay a yearly subsidy for the hotel's operation equal to 5 percent of its annual revenue. The city would subsidize the hotel for 15 years but would pay no more than $8.25 million. The subsidy would come from the city's general fund."
^Didn't we do something crazy like this with the courthouse, library and sports district parking garages over a decade ago that we're still paying millions on now?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 12, 2019, 04:15:34 PM
^Didn't we do something crazy like this with the courthouse, library and sports district parking garages over a decade ago that we're still paying millions on now?
Yes. IIRC, the developer was guaranteed an 8% ROI.
At least we're consistent.
QuoteInvestor behind proposed Berkman II delinquent in taxes in New Orleans project
The head of the Mississippi-based development firm behind the proposed Berkman II redevelopment project, which could receive up to $36 million in public incentives, has ties to a struggling condominium project in New Orleans that owes more than $200,000 in delinquent property taxes and $79,000 in unpaid debts to contractors, according to public records.
Lori Stewart didn't lead the presentation given to Jacksonville City Council members about the plans to transform the half-constructed Berkman II tower that sits along the river on downtown's Bay Street into a destination hotel and amusement park, and her name wasn't listed as part of the development team described in that presentation. Instead, she is the leader of the primary financial backer of the project, the Stewart Family Trust, and the development company that acts as its public face, Barrington Development.
Barrington Development lists several Mississippi hotels and resorts among its track record of success and says it has big plans for others in Biloxi, Miss. and Pensacola Beach. Absent from the news releases and PowerPoint presentations about the project: the Lake Vista condominiums.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190408/investor-behind-proposed-berkman-ii-delinquent-in-taxes-in-new-orleans-project
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/xT5LMFfQQJtiKQ2gCs/giphy.gif)
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/3b816844-1fc9-43e0-8f22-b3faf3fb8924
What is the least level of surprised someone can be?
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/04/12/no-ferris-wheel-for-downtown-berkman-ii-site.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldRME9ETmtPRFJrTW1OayIsInQiOiJBMmg1NGdFZ0pQcUlTaWliK2UyRXVJRzNnRzB2cHI2Y1wva0xhT3FXY3pya2U4THRjRnpZRVRKR0ZSWGtvdVwvSDNyWm02bmFhWlBoaTBYUmpBcUI1USsxNkVFUFBZbXNxQ0huNUtQdFFQNHB2K2w2YWpaSmhcLzNDQmU4ZW1OZVg5MCJ9
well, that was fun while it lasted.
^This is what a dose of reality will do to such projects. It also further points to why it would be a good idea to have a downtown master plan and identified vision for what the city wants to see with its parcels and an identified timeline for incremental implementation. Seems like actually determining what can and can't be done with the shipyards property (and at what cost) is in order. Maybe it should be the "front lawn" some want, assuming that means you don't have to dig up and deal with whatever is under there?
Quote from: downtownbrown on April 12, 2019, 01:15:39 PM
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/04/12/no-ferris-wheel-for-downtown-berkman-ii-site.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldRME9ETmtPRFJrTW1OayIsInQiOiJBMmg1NGdFZ0pQcUlTaWliK2UyRXVJRzNnRzB2cHI2Y1wva0xhT3FXY3pya2U4THRjRnpZRVRKR0ZSWGtvdVwvSDNyWm02bmFhWlBoaTBYUmpBcUI1USsxNkVFUFBZbXNxQ0huNUtQdFFQNHB2K2w2YWpaSmhcLzNDQmU4ZW1OZVg5MCJ9
well, that was fun while it lasted.
Well that is not completely shocking whatsoever....
Also, say hello to more surface parking lots along Bay Street and the river:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/04/12/no-ferris-wheel-for-downtown-berkman-ii-site.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldRME9ETmtPRFJrTW1OayIsInQiOiJBMmg1NGdFZ0pQcUlTaWliK2UyRXVJRzNnRzB2cHI2Y1wva0xhT3FXY3pya2U4THRjRnpZRVRKR0ZSWGtvdVwvSDNyWm02bmFhWlBoaTBYUmpBcUI1USsxNkVFUFBZbXNxQ0huNUtQdFFQNHB2K2w2YWpaSmhcLzNDQmU4ZW1OZVg5MCJ9 (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/04/12/no-ferris-wheel-for-downtown-berkman-ii-site.html?ana=e_jac_bn_breakingnews&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiTldRME9ETmtPRFJrTW1OayIsInQiOiJBMmg1NGdFZ0pQcUlTaWliK2UyRXVJRzNnRzB2cHI2Y1wva0xhT3FXY3pya2U4THRjRnpZRVRKR0ZSWGtvdVwvSDNyWm02bmFhWlBoaTBYUmpBcUI1USsxNkVFUFBZbXNxQ0huNUtQdFFQNHB2K2w2YWpaSmhcLzNDQmU4ZW1OZVg5MCJ9)
QuoteThe DIA and the developers will also have to figure out a parking solution for the project since the developer will not be building a parking garage.
The parking garage would have been built over the most contaminated portion of the property. Providing a surface lot instead of having to actually dig a foundation for a garage is the cheapest way to remedy that environmental hurdle.
But don't worry, the one-person DIA staff being led by someone that has no professional real estate experience is on it!
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190408/investor-behind-proposed-berkman-ii-delinquent-in-taxes-in-new-orleans-project (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190408/investor-behind-proposed-berkman-ii-delinquent-in-taxes-in-new-orleans-project)
Quote"If it was only a single developer, that might change the equation," said Hughes, who said he learned about the issues that arose in New Orleans before his staff finalized the proposed economic incentive deal. "Given the team and the presentation, the risk is nil for taxpayers."
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2019, 01:30:08 PM
^This is what a dose of reality will do to such projects. It also further points to why it would be a good idea to have a downtown master plan and identified vision for what the city wants to see with its parcels and an identified timeline for incremental implementation. Seems like actually determining what can and can't be done with the shipyards property (and at what cost) is in order. Maybe it should be the "front lawn" some want, assuming that means you don't have to dig up and deal with whatever is under there?
So, you're saying things like having a waterfront master plan, and then having some sort of subsidiary (non-profit, foundation, etc) to manage the implementation, fundraising and programming of said master plan... is something done in cities that have vibrant waterfronts?
Seems as though some might agree with that assessment:
https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190409/mark-woods-if-we-build-front-lawn-what-will-come-of-it (https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190409/mark-woods-if-we-build-front-lawn-what-will-come-of-it)
QuoteBut beyond that, we should have greenspace for the sake of greenspace.
Yes, it needs to be more than a lawn. If we simply replace an orange roof with green grass, we're destined to trade one kind of disappointment for another.
The Jaxson, a multimedia project dedicated to urbanism on the First Coast, summed it up well: "A lawn alone is something people tend to drive past without stopping. Downtown needs spaces that attract people to congregate and spend time in. Great parks can do this, but they also require the inclusion of amenities that go well beyond grass and sidewalk."
Like the Discovery Green in Houston — a 12-acre park that's much more than a lawn.
Discovery Green came with a hefty $125 million price tag, covered partly by philanthropic groups. The Houston Chronicle recently reported that an average of 1.5 million people visit Discovery Green each year, 200 percent more than the park planners imagined — and that the space has become an economic engine, helping to spark a $1.2 billion building boom around it.
QuoteAll of this leads to a broader, more basic question: What is our plan for the Northbank?
After years of watching little happen on the Northbank, it's understandable to want to see things finally happening. But we need to get this right. Building isn't automatically progress.
Chris Hong's story in Tuesday's paper detailed why we should have concerns about plans for the proposed Berkman II redevelopment. The head of a Mississippi-based firm behind the project, which could receive $36 million in public incentives, owes more $200,000 in delinquent property taxes on a New Orleans condo project, plus another $79,000 to contractors.
Beyond the financial concerns, there is the question of whether the plan itself is right for downtown's riverfront.
This is one example of why some are calling for the city to develop a true master plan, with defined design standards and a clear blueprint for entire waterfront — not just unrelated projects popping up along the river.
^Pretty much! Without it, we're likely to end up placing some investments in position that make little sense in the grand scheme of things. So much that in 2029, we'll be questioning what the hell were we thinking in 2019 and proposing spending millions more to dig us out of the hole of previous questionable public investments!
With that said, 100 years of heavy industrial use just likely saved taxpayers a bunch of money. That amusement park would have failed just as fast as Flint's AutoWorld.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoWorld_(theme_park)
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2019, 01:44:06 PM
^Pretty much! Without it, we're likely to end up placing some investments in position that make little sense in the grand scheme of things. So much that in 2029, we'll be questioning what the hell were we thinking in 2019 and proposing spending millions more to dig us out of the hole of previous questionable public investments!
You mean like what happened 10 years ago?
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-preservation-not-demolition-has-worked-downtown-page-2/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/why-preservation-not-demolition-has-worked-downtown-page-2/)
Or like 30 years ago when the downtown merchant association disbanded in protest of locating a convention center a mile away from the core of the city
Or like... nevermind, its Friday... time to be positive :)
Quote from: thelakelander on April 12, 2019, 01:49:06 PM
With that said, 100 years of heavy industrial use just likely saved taxpayers a bunch of money. That amusement park would have failed just as fast as Flint's AutoWorld.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AutoWorld_(theme_park)
At least Flint had an excuse - their water was contaminated with lead which made them stupid.
Brian Hughes, per the Daily Record
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/plan-to-redevelop-berkman-ii-property-with-an-amusement-park-withdrawn (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/plan-to-redevelop-berkman-ii-property-with-an-amusement-park-withdrawn)
Quote"At this point, the property owners will have the capacity to let the property sit idle for quite some time into the future if they choose," he said.
It wasn't just a few months ago that they were all thumping their chests about 'winning', 'getting stuff done' and 'changing downtown' regarding Berkman. Generally, someone that is familiar with real estate development, would have been much more cautious with the bravado... but, to each their own.
^This will be your story with the courthouse site and Landing property too, if razed. They'll sit empty through the next recession at a minimum.
Quote from: fieldafm on April 12, 2019, 03:49:34 PM
Brian Hughes, per the Daily Record
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/plan-to-redevelop-berkman-ii-property-with-an-amusement-park-withdrawn (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/plan-to-redevelop-berkman-ii-property-with-an-amusement-park-withdrawn)
Quote"At this point, the property owners will have the capacity to let the property sit idle for quite some time into the future if they choose," he said.
It wasn't just a few months ago that they were all thumping their chests about 'winning', 'getting stuff done' and 'changing downtown' regarding Berkman. Generally, someone that is familiar with real estate development, would have been much more cautious with the bravado... but, to each their own.
Pretty funny. Mark Lamping was just quoted as saying it may be good to just let the Landing site sit idle for a while after the demo too, until things heat up with downtown development.
So, looks like we're going to have some major idle on the Northbank riverfront.
I was going to move back to Jacksonville what with all the hoopla in the last 8 months to a year...but.......should I? (Garry can hear a pin drop)
Quote from: heights unknown on April 12, 2019, 05:43:09 PM
I was going to move back to Jacksonville what with all the hoopla in the last 8 months to a year...but.......should I? (Garry can hear a pin drop)
If you want a lifestyle of walkable urbanism the answer is No.
QuoteIt wasn't just a few months ago that they were all thumping their chests about 'winning', 'getting stuff done' and 'changing downtown' regarding Berkman
a few months ago as in just before the election?
Sounds pretty petty....
In reality though, downtown is pretty screwed if it gets to a point where the majority of leaders in this city don't even question some of the moves being made for fear of retaliation.
QuoteJacksonville City Councilman: Mayor's staffer threatened retaliation for Berkman criticism
A Jacksonville City Council member said Brian Hughes, Mayor Lenny Curry's chief of staff and the interim leader of the Downtown Investment Authority, threatened retaliation against him after he criticized an incentive-rich deal to redevelop downtown's vacant Berkman 2 property, which faces an uncertain future after a Mississippi development firm backed out of the deal last week.
Full article: https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20190415/jacksonville-city-councilman-mayors-staffer-threatened-retaliation-for-berkman-criticism
Shocking.
JAX city politics is pretty thugish. Maybe there should be a Charter Amendment to make all city offices nonpartisan. That would take out a lot of this needless rancor.
Jacksonville loves to throw money and incentives at businesses that claim to be bringing in lots of jobs, hotel rooms, entertainment districts etc. But most businesses that move to a new city would do so without incentives. People are starting to get this. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/15/nashville-amazon-deal-sparks-backlash-from-both-left-and-right (https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/15/nashville-amazon-deal-sparks-backlash-from-both-left-and-right)
When will city council realize that encouraging small businesses to grow will do much more than bringing in unicorns on Ferris wheels? We need people to run for city office who understand this.
Quote from: Kiva on April 15, 2019, 05:29:06 PM
Jacksonville loves to throw money and incentives at businesses that claim to be bringing in lots of jobs, hotel rooms, entertainment districts etc. But most businesses that move to a new city would do so without incentives. People are starting to get this. https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/15/nashville-amazon-deal-sparks-backlash-from-both-left-and-right (https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/apr/15/nashville-amazon-deal-sparks-backlash-from-both-left-and-right)
When will city council realize that encouraging small businesses to grow will do much more than bringing in unicorns on Ferris wheels? We need people to run for city office who understand this.
I hope so. Corporate welfare has run rampant for far too long.
Brian "bad boy of Comms" Hughes living up to his self-proclaimed name. If the city counsel had any spine they'd present a united front and rebuke this kind of behavior from the Mayor's office.
What's the point of a city counsel if they're just there to rubber stamp Lenny's projects anyway? Have some dignity!
Hughes has deleted his twitter account, @gometeoric.