Expanding the Skyway: Where would you like it to go?
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JTA-Skyway/i-dN4J6ht/0/L/DSCF3308-L.jpg)
The Jacksonville Transportation Authority (JTA) is seriously considering expanding the Skyway to serve neighborhoods outside of downtown Jacksonville. Where would you like to see the system expanded first?
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-nov-expanding-the-skyway-where-would-you-like-it-to-go
Putting aside questions of feasibility, I think having it run through Riverside and Avondale would make sense. Maybe also extending it through San Marco.
Brooklyn obviously... Springfield possibly... people mention the stadium district but more cars would need to be added for events. Those tiny two car pods do not hold enough people for large events...
Run it north at grade on Main and 8th to UF with a stop at 4th and Main. Run it southwest at grade along Riverside/St. Johns/Herschel to Roosevelt Square, with stops for 5points, Park&King, and Avondale. Run it south somehow to Atlantic/East San Marco/San Marco Square.
Make Roosevelt Square and UF into park-n-ride stations a la kings ave, and call it a day.
Brooklyn, Riverside
1. Brooklyn
2. San Marco
Don't they ask this same question like every 8 months? I feel like I've taken multiple surveys the last couple years on what the future should be for the skyway. Just do it already or give up on it all together. We'd all love to see it stretch from riverside to the stadium, and into San Marco, but in all honesty people will only use it during special events anyway so why invest all the money?
The survey is a bit different than others in the past. It has some focus on identifying what destination the public prefers them to focus on first. There's not enough money to do everything at once.
On the north I would like an extension from Rosa Parks to UF Shands.
On the southbank to San Marco.
On the westbank, Brooklyn/Riverside, as close to 5 points as feasible.
Long term, i dont think the Skyway is feasible for routes like the airport, stadium or the beach.
But if they could come up with a dual purpose system, where Skyway cars stay local, and longer, faster cars go farther, but use the same monorail system the Skyway does.
Kind of like the original Chicago Loop, where not only CTA transit cars were used, but also interurbans would traverse the elevated and use the same stations. This might be useful.
Brooklyn is the most feasible with real benefits but I would really like to see it as close to 5 Points as possible too. I think San Marco would make a lot of sense as well with the new Publix/San Marco Square addition. There is real density in the area that makes parking hard but destinations people want to go to. I think late night hours when events are occurring make a lot of sense, which they are good about sometimes. I would hop on the Skyway and head to Art Walk or when going to the symphony rather than figure out parking.
Why not extend down Bay St. just around the Hyatt/Old Courthouse Annex/Elbow if it still doesn't make sense to go all the way to the Stadium?
I would love to see fixed-guideway extended into Brooklyn, 5-points, and San Marco...but how do you do it without the visual problems that it brings? Running an elevated track through 5-Points and San Marco would be an eye-sore.
You'd have to find a way to drop it down to grade. In San Marco, that would be easy since it would possibly run adjacent to the FEC tracks down to Atlantic Boulevard. It would be pretty hard to do in Brooklyn without closing several streets. Brooklyn aside, you could get it within walking distance of Five Points by extending it to I-95.
I'm not sure the people of San Marco would want it, it's a bit unsightly. Whereas a street car could integrate much better on the existing roads.
Is the possibility of using the raised track for a street car out?
It seems like it would cost more now to convert, but expansion from them on would be much cheaper.
It would be an eyesore if you actually took it down into the commercial district but I don't think it would be into a Riverside Park if you did it right along Park.
But converting it to a street car gives more options for expansion later.
A mass transit system that avoids the places where people actually want to go seems counter-productive. If it looped around the convention center (thru the parking lot), to Jackson Street in Brooklyn and then made a right turn on Oak Street it could make it all the way to Publix in 5-Points. The only problem is where the street was vacated behind the churches (which is why the City shouldn't be vacated right of way). If the Brooklyn Riverside Apartments hadn't been allowed to close Oak Street it would have saved millions in expansion costs.
There's already a skyway easement along Riverside Avenue between the Acosta Bridge and Forest Street. So Brooklyn Riverside shouldn't be an issue. With that said, I'm not sure how you'd get it to the Publix. I-95 and its ramps pretty much cut Riverside off. Other than College Street, it be pretty difficult to drop it to grade without closing off access to existing streets and businesses.
San Francisco already tried waterfront elevated transit and it was a disaster. I literally can't think of anything worse for Brooklyn then an elevated skyway running down Riverside. Cities all over the world are removing elevated structures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised Jax is considering expanding ours.
Quote from: coredumped on November 06, 2016, 06:52:38 PM
But converting it to a street car gives more options for expansion later.
Did converting it to streetcar ever get discussed?
Quote from: Kerry on November 06, 2016, 09:30:27 PM
San Francisco already tried waterfront elevated transit and it was a disaster. I literally can't think of anything worse for Brooklyn then an elevated skyway running down Riverside. Cities all over the world are removing elevated structures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised Jax is considering expanding ours.
San Francisco replaced an elevated freeway with a context sensitive boulevard that also included a heritage streetcar line in the median. Transit is still expanding and is dependent on the type of system and physical landscape the transit system is being built into. Miami, Honolulu, Vancouver, San Juan, Seattle are all examples of cities that have recently constructed or are in the process of building elevated sections of transit lines.
Brightline - Miami
(http://gobrightline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/1-Rail-view-e1477077065965.jpg)
Link LRT - Seattle
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600738235_GHEKE-M.jpg)
Lynx LRT - Charlotte
(http://www.inla.cn/uploads/ac/35lnqh5mcal.jpg)
Gold Line LRT - Los Angeles
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Los-Angeles-June-2011/i-nX5D3bF/0/L/DSC0331-L.jpg)
As you can see below, cities are building high frequency public transit anyway they can. Not removing it. However, your view is one that will make it difficult to expand an elevated system like the Skyway into historic districts like Riverside and Springfield. It will be interesting to see if a way to operate at-grade can be developed. If it can, it would open up expansion options that currently don't exist.
To me, all are good options, but there are still some moving parts in play as well.
The most immediate, best bang for the buck is obviously Brooklyn.
From there, we need to really take a close look at what extensions are going to set the system up for the most success.
With existing conditions, an extension to the stadium district has its pros and cons. Sure, it's expensive, but particularly combined with a Brooklyn station, it solves one of the major perception issues with the system - it connects nothing to nothing - and directly links residents in Brooklyn, the Southbank condo towers, the Lavilla Lofts, the new proposed apartment tower behind Aetna, and numerous others to downtown's most active event zone (250+ events per year). Sure, the system would be taxed for big stadium events, but it should do just fine for events at the stadium, Baseball Grounds, and Daily's Place.
I would argue that if you prioritize San Marco over the stadium district, you still run into that issue of lack of compelling connections.
The true x-factor though is the Shipyards and Metro Park. If we're confident that large-scale development is imminent at either property - perhaps both - in the next three (Met Park) to five (Shipyards) years, that extension becomes strategically vital. Personally, I think it would also help encourage infill development in the dead zone between the downtown core and new development in and around the stadium district.
To a much lesser extent, if Phase 1 of the District ends up being as large as currently estimated, it would be worth its weight in QOL gold to find a way to bring the Skyway right up to the edge of (or even directly into) that development. I know it's close already, but I think it's still just a little too far away to reach full synergy with what is estimated to be a $400 million development.
Quote from: Kerry on November 06, 2016, 09:30:27 PM
San Francisco already tried waterfront elevated transit and it was a disaster. I literally can't think of anything worse for Brooklyn then an elevated skyway running down Riverside. Cities all over the world are removing elevated structures so I guess I shouldn't be surprised Jax is considering expanding ours.
The Vancouver SkyTrain is a good example of elevated transit, its quite successful, but not all of it is elevated. It also uses traditional rails instead of a monorail beam.
(http://wpmedia.vancouversun.com/2016/04/burnaby-bc-march-12-2015-translinks-skytrain-travels-o.jpeg?quality=55&strip=all&w=840&h=630&crop=1)
Yeah, there are a lot of successful elevated trains across North America. It's can be unsightly, but it has other advantages as well. I'd think there are far more important obstacles to moving the Skyway into Riverside rather than its ugliness; namely that it's impossible due to the Fuller Warren Bridge.
I'll reserve comment on existing elevated systems mentioned above for a later time. The Skyway was designed to be a downtown circulator. Its design isn't conducive to reaching downtown adjacent neighborhoods. If it expands I would like to see it reach the east side of downtown.
Your most realistic opportunity is to go under I-95 along College Street near the Annie Lytle. That road is a lot wider than it has to be. However, it would be really difficult to get it anywhere south of Margaret without impacting the historic integrity of the district.
Also, I seriously doubt anything built in the District, Shipyards or Metro Park will happen within five years that is significant enough to outweigh the residential/employment access numbers of a San Marco or Springfield/UF Health. Both of those areas already have thousands of people living and working in them.
In fact, I'd argue investing in a skywalk between Baptist Medical/Aetna and San Marco Station would have a greater impact on ridership than a 1/4 mile extension to the District's first phase (Assuming it actually happens). Even at full buildout....20-30 years from now, a District or Shipyards would still fall short of their current population numbers.
Springfield would have the benefit of a true transit destination in UF Health and the surrounding medical facilities. It would also do wonders for developing FSCJ's campus into a true walkable educational environment. Access to the green space along Hogans Creek would benefit urban core residents as well. With both medical campuses employing thousands and limited in land area, programs encouraging employees to use the Skyway as a shuttle service could be explored. This would free up land currently used for their parking needs for additional infill medical expansion. Anything near UF Health also gets you close to the inner city's transit dependent population base. Another plus, when it comes to ridership potential.
The best argument for the sports district is the connection to existing facilities and venues. That's actually a decent argument when you can also tie in everyday use via the Elbow, Hyatt/Courthouse, etc.
The negative side would be that the majority of people using Sports District facilities aren't downtown residents. Outside of park-n-ride potential, the majority would still drive and park in the sports district when attending events there.
Quote from: Kerry on November 07, 2016, 12:16:15 PM
I'll reserve comment on existing elevated systems mentioned above for a later time. The Skyway was designed to be a downtown circulator. Its design isn't conducive to reaching downtown adjacent neighborhoods. If it expands I would like to see it reach the east side of downtown.
It was designed to reach adjacent neighborhoods as a circulator. Here's is the original proposed routing map from the 1970s. Take note that it was originally supposed to serve Springfield, Sugar Hill and UF Health Jax:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/skyway/original-route-map.jpg)
Also, here's the route map of the Miami Metromover. It's a similar system that was expanded to serve adjacent neighborhoods like Brickell and Omni, to the north and south of downtown Miami:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Miami-Metrorail-Nov2010/i-TDWNm9w/0/M/Metromover-Metrorail-M.jpg)
Nevertheless, yes as a circulator it is not designed to be something that could serve the entire city. As in the case with Miami's Metrorail (green), you would need another form of high frequency transit to serve greater distances.
Vintage or Heritage Streetcars operating on elevated tracks on a rebuilt structure (removing the 100,000+ pound concrete monorail beams) give us a instant 'streetcar' with all of the benefits of a much higher dollar Light-Rail System downtown. It also gives us the opportunity to take the future operation down to grade for quick, economical operation.
Expansion north to the UF Hospital should be a no brainer if we made this conversion. The way I see it you simply span the street north of Rosa Parks then ramp it down alongside the FSCJ buildings. At grade streetcar track could cut diagonally along the South and West boundary of the Springfield Parks with stations at Bethel, Public Health, VA Clinic and UF.
Nearly the entire route could be done in the classic historic Jacksonville method of sodding over and landscaping the whole route. All one would see is the top of two rails and a single wire. Streets crossed at grade would be protected by standard crossing gates and lights. A PCC or Peter Witt Streetcar can easily make 35-45 mph or more on such track if conditions permit it. Those streetcars can also operate entrain with a single operator making their capacity almost limitless.
East to A. P. Randolph is a logical expansion as a development catalyst for 'The Shipyards,' or Metropolitan Park. In any case it might be wise to get the elevated route extended to the area of Elbow/JSO. Hence it could drop to grade for the balance of the extension using an exclusive STREETCAR/BRT type transit Lane. This is something that many cities have used successfully to incentivize new construction. Tampa and Milwaukee have had incredible success at this and Milwaukee has 4 new mid-to high rise towers going up along the streetcar by 2020.
South to Brooklyn would be a snap as Side-of-the-road or median space is pretty easy from the (future 'and historic' streetcar maintance facility). Track already reaches grade level at the facility making streetcar extension easy. Five Points all the way to NAS JAX follows a historic streetcar route and the Ortega Bridge has rails or railed already in place. Again using BRT/STREETCAR only lanes make it operate much faster.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BOOK%20JAX%20STREETCARS/STREETCAR-JACKSONVILLE-TRACTION-O_zpsb31db628.jpg)
Hidden rail bed already in place, just follow the scars in the pavement.
San Marco is similarly easy but BOTH the elevated track to a point south/west of the FEC RY and a pedestrian sky bridge to Baptist from the current San Marco station would be necessary. The station could be rebranded 'Southbank Medical Center,' or some such since we could establish a true San Marco Intermodal Station at the FEC RY and ATLANTIC with the streetcars coming in along the west side of the tracks.
Lastly and not mentioned but certainly worth a possible consideration with at grade or street railway would be a West JAX, Ed Waters, Moncrief etc... This Extension continues west from the current end of the line at the JRTC and could either stay elevated to the Farmers Market or use the street route via a rebuilt portion of Myrtle to Beaver. Once free and west of the CSX/NS tracks it could expand anywhere in NW JAX.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/ScreenShot2013-09-18at11410PM_zps0defd5e5.png)
This JTA Plan for a Brooklyn Station fits the Streetcar Idea perfectly.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/RobertsFIRSTbirthday001.jpg)
The Skyway cannot successfully operate at ground level in a public place due to the impossibility of crossing it and to the exposed high voltage current just under the rail. The Skyway does already come down to grade at the Maintenance Center which ironically is exactly the location of the original Streetcar Shop Facilities.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/BOOK%20JAX%20STREETCARS/ScreenShot2014-04-20at104503AM_zpse3b4b0eb.png)
Operating at grade, a streetcar doesn't have to be unsightly, in fact it could help us regain what we've lost, the sobriquet of 'The Most Beautiful Streetcar Line In The World.'
That's my 800 pound transit guerrilla point of view.
What would be cool is if the skyway car could pull onto a monrail beam that had regular train wheels. Then it could seamlessly transition between at-grade tracks and elevated monrail.
Does anyone know why the tracks were converted to the beam style from the original open style? Miami doesn't seem to have any issues with theres (the sister to ours).
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 07, 2016, 09:11:30 PM
Does anyone know why the tracks were converted to the beam style from the original open style? Miami doesn't seem to have any issues with theres (the sister to ours).
Maybe Gate was supplying the concrete?
JTA and JAX was warned that the original system was not much more than a poky airport shuttle running between buildings even though they were promising 30/60k daily riders and calling it a elevated metro. The monorail concept has always been pie-in-the-sky and NEVER really been successful with U.S. Style loadings except as an amusement. However the man on the street, including past JTA directors bought the sales pitch, hook, line and sinker. Yet we still have those 'train of the future' believers!
Recalling Mayor Delaney speaking of the need to work more toward our core becoming a 24 hour Downtown - in the absence of a single large feeder of "choice riders" - perhaps connecting three major medical campuses (& their parking facilities) could provide needed influx.
1) Could streetcar north from RosaParks/FSCJ DT run along Hogan creek & in any way bring $ to restore those park(s)?
2) With Brooklyn at grade a St. Vincent's connection could only help Riverside. CenterState bank won't likely need their whole block of King St between Lydia/Forbes in all perpetuity and the parking lot on Riverside between Publix and St.Johns Quarter can be better utilized.
3) a local song once rang out, Take it to the Mathews bridge...
With talk of Met park being developed & old ship yards being the park component replacement, regardless of what happens to the old annex & prime osborne, with Vestcor now in LaVilla, the Ballard conversion possibilities, Phoenix arts, etc., the Eastside and A. Phillip Randolph streetscaping effort and expense invested in that corridor may warrant giving the area a fighting chance via restoration of connectivity
Question
Coming north from KingsAve parking garage & a possible SanMarco extension, it looks like the skyway vehicles have to reverse into Brooklyn, is this so?
Quote from: stephendare on November 12, 2016, 12:21:39 PM
every car they run is at capacity now.
Things have changed in the years since you left jax.
There are a lot more people living downtown and in the immediate area for one.
The cars were approaching capacity during peak hours before I left.
Years? I've only been in Central Florida since a year ago August!
Good that downtown is growing, its long overdue.
Quote from: ricker on November 14, 2016, 07:55:27 AM
Recalling Mayor Delaney speaking of the need to work more toward our core becoming a 24 hour Downtown - in the absence of a single large feeder of "choice riders" - perhaps connecting three major medical campuses (& their parking facilities) could provide needed influx.
Actually 4 are within fairly easy reach: UF, Baptist (which desperately needs a pedestrian skybridge to tie it to the system, St. Vincent's Riverside is within easy striking distance of a hybrid Sky-Streetcar with some surface running, Memorial/Brooks is also in that last category.
Quote1) Could streetcar north from RosaParks/FSCJ DT run along Hogan creek & in any way bring $ to restore those park(s)?
Absolutely, but care should be exercised so the streetcar price-tag doesn't get stacked with too many extras.
Quote2) With Brooklyn at grade a St. Vincent's connection could only help Riverside. CenterState bank won't likely need their whole block of King St between Lydia/Forbes in all perpetuity and the parking lot on Riverside between Publix and St.Johns Quarter can be better utilized.
The original line used Oak, splitting the walk between Riverside and Park.
Quote3) a local song once rang out, Take it to the Mathews bridge...
Doable with streetcar, Skyway or hybrid, but coming off somewhere near the Kings Avenue Station might make more sense allowing pickup of Saint Nicholas, Memorial Hospital and ...??
QuoteWith talk of Met park being developed & old ship yards being the park component replacement, regardless of what happens to the old annex & prime osborne, with Vestcor now in LaVilla, the Ballard conversion possibilities, Phoenix arts, etc., the Eastside and A. Phillip Randolph streetscaping effort and expense invested in that corridor may warrant giving the area a fighting chance via restoration of connectivity
It's so much larger than 'Everbank Field,' historically this was the Florida Avenue Streetcar line. The TOD effect of a streetcar coupled with all of the entertainment venues would make for explosive growth.
QuoteQuestion
Coming north from KingsAve parking garage & a possible SanMarco extension, it looks like the skyway vehicles have to reverse into Brooklyn, is this so?
Like streetcars they are Bi-Directional so it's not a problem, neither system would need turning loops (aka: Balloon or Circus Tracks)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 14, 2016, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on November 12, 2016, 12:21:39 PM
every car they run is at capacity now.
Things have changed in the years since you left jax.
There are a lot more people living downtown and in the immediate area for one.
The cars were approaching capacity during peak hours before I left.
Years? I've only been in Central Florida since a year ago August!
Good that downtown is growing, its long overdue.
The skyway averages around 5,000 riders a day. Ridership has grown but its nowhere near capacity.
Even if they ran that way 24/7 there are huge problems with the monorail or people mover concept.
Small capacity vehicles
Extremely high construction costs
High maintenance costs
High operating costs
Inability to walk through the train which limits train length at stations
Heritage Streetcars such as the PCC have a capacity 3-4 times that of the Skyway cars. A modern multi-unit streetcar on that infrastructure could have 12 times the capacity or more.
The elevated infrastructure gives us a opportunity at a true Rapid-Streetcar Metro System.
JTA's current mindset that streetcar 'MUST' have either catenary or a buried 'third rail' in the center of the track (mentioned all through their reports) might be just one more goofy way to snatch defeat out of certain victory, this could morph into the same old 'it can't be done!' Or 'it's too expensive.'
Just saw on the news they are changing the color scheme of the cars. Maybe if those in the past that hated th system don't recognize the cars they'll be for it now???
Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 14, 2016, 05:00:12 PM
Even if they ran that way 24/7 there are huge problems with the monorail or people mover concept.
Small capacity vehicles
Extremely high construction costs
High maintenance costs
High operating costs
Inability to walk through the train which limits train length at stations
Heritage Streetcars such as the PCC have a capacity 3-4 times that of the Skyway cars. A modern multi-unit streetcar on that infrastructure could have 12 times the capacity or more.
The elevated infrastructure gives us a opportunity at a true Rapid-Streetcar Metro System.
JTA's current mindset that streetcar 'MUST' have either catenary or a buried 'third rail' in the center of the track (mentioned all through their reports) might be just one more goofy way to snatch defeat out of certain victory, this could morph into the same old 'it can't be done!' Or 'it's too expensive.'
What options are there for power other than the catenary or third rail? Hybrid diesel?
Quote from: acme54321 on November 15, 2016, 03:39:24 PM
What options are there for power other than the catenary or third rail? Hybrid diesel?
The M-1 rail line here in Detroit will use a combination of li-ion batteries and catenaries.
QuoteInstead of a Woodward Avenue wrapped with electric lines, 60% of the route will be "off wire," meaning most of it will run on battery power versus electricity. The rest will use an overhead catenary system, a standard feature of electric streetcars, allowing the cars to recharge as they drive the 3.3-mile route along Woodward, from downtown to New Center.
http://m-1rail.com/charge-up-the-batteries-for-m-1-rail/ (http://m-1rail.com/charge-up-the-batteries-for-m-1-rail/)
That's a good idea. I've always thought that you'd get a ton of pushback trying to run a streetcar through Avondale (or any of the residential areas) with overhead wires. The aesthetics of overhead wires aren't the best.
JTA just had a community meeting to discuss expansion possibilities they are considering.
Per the JBJ, Five Points, the Sports Complex, The District, the M.D. Anderson health center, and Springfield were noted as possibilities, among others, with the most popular public support being for the sports complex and Five Points
Not the best pic, but you can get a sense for some stations they suggested:
(https://s21.postimg.org/angjmjm5j/Untitled.png)
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/16/where-should-an-expanded-skyway-go-public-weighs.html
MD Anderson? Interesting! Never considered that. It would have to get across the interstate :o I imagine that would be the terminus whether or not the system was modified to run at grade. And that would be potentially four new branches with the Sports Complex, the District and Brooklyn also spidering out in new directions. You would really have to pay attention to your destination which may go over the head of Jax riders. I've seen plenty of confusion with the branches we currently have lol.
Anyway, it is fun to think about and selfishly I'd LOVE the MD Anderson station, but at the end of the day I know we'll be very lucky just to see a Brooklyn extension in the next 5 years so I'd like our focus/energies on that.
Another option for extending at grade.....a driverless bus...
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/technology/2016/01/28/EZ10-pods-in-Finla_3447379b-large_trans++pJliwavx4coWFCaEkEsb3kvxIt-lGGWCWqwLa_RXJU8.jpg)
(https://www.theurbanist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/driverless-bus-760x401.jpg)
How would you all feel about something like this running on the existing infrastructure and being extended into surrounding neighborhoods at-grade (assuming they ran in their own dedicated lanes)?
I don't see the point. Why not just run regular buses in dedicated lanes? Surely they can hold more passengers.
Does anybody know where in Springfield they are considering? Up main street, or through the parks to UF health? I think up main street (with a stop somewhere around 6th) and then over 8th to UF would be the best for encouraging commercial redevelopment on main street.
Maybe one day I could walk from my house in Springfield to a skyway station and ride it to Intuition. That would be amazing.
Driverless? Not for me, but not for the reasons you might think. Simply a matter of security. I don't like the thought of myself and my wife being completely alone with no transportation worker making sure a bunch of clowns aren't boarding that car with evil intentions.
BTW, Munz and Rummell do not want the Skyway any closer to the District. Just listened to them say this at an event.
^Interesting.
Did they say why???
Because it's will be healthy to walk to the station. And they probably don't want that monstrosity running into the middle of their development.
It be a waste of money to extend it there anyway. It's already within a 1/4 mile walk from Kings Avenue Station.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2016, 09:18:01 PM
It be a waste of money to extend it there anyway. It's already within a 1/4 mile walk from Kings Avenue Station.
Yarrr, it be a waste, says I.
Quote from: TimmyB on November 16, 2016, 11:26:39 AM
Driverless? Not for me, but not for the reasons you might think. Simply a matter of security. I don't like the thought of myself and my wife being completely alone with no transportation worker making sure a bunch of clowns aren't boarding that car with evil intentions.
Current skyway cars are driverless as well. But security is at every station so doesn't seem so bad.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 16, 2016, 07:55:04 PM
^Interesting.
Did they say why???
Cause they don't want the riff raff from the future Shands station riding into the District for free. Dont you know that crime travels via PT and not cars?
Someone mentioned the Skyway was changing color schemes. Anybody have images?
It really had to do with the eyesore factor and it sounded like some sort of stigma. I also don't think they want to have any part in paying for it.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 16, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
Cause they don't want the riff raff from the future Shands station riding into the District for free. Dont you know that crime travels via PT and not cars?
Of course. I can see it now. Riff Raff using the Skyway to carry off their flat screen tvs instead of backing a U-Haul truck right up to their front door at the end of their manicured cul-de-sac. I remember when they used to make those arguments against potential MARTA expansion in Atlanta. Some pretty illogical thinking.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 16, 2016, 11:05:23 PM
Someone mentioned the Skyway was changing color schemes. Anybody have images?
This is the new livery they've started rocking, so I'm guessing it's this.
(http://www.jtafla.com/media/Images/Skyway/skyway_092016-2/1018/skyway_092016-2.png)
(http://mediaweb.actionnewsjax.com/photo/2016/09/27/Skyway%20New%20Look_20160927193323088_6194274_ver1.0_640_360.jpg)
Saw that car a couple weeks ago. Looked great in person great metro/retro look
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 16, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on November 16, 2016, 11:26:39 AM
Driverless? Not for me, but not for the reasons you might think. Simply a matter of security. I don't like the thought of myself and my wife being completely alone with no transportation worker making sure a bunch of clowns aren't boarding that car with evil intentions.
Current skyway cars are driverless as well. But security is at every station so doesn't seem so bad.
Probably why I haven't ever ridden the Skyway. That, and the fact that it doesn't go anywhere!
Quote from: TimmyB on November 17, 2016, 11:01:05 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 16, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on November 16, 2016, 11:26:39 AM
Driverless? Not for me, but not for the reasons you might think. Simply a matter of security. I don't like the thought of myself and my wife being completely alone with no transportation worker making sure a bunch of clowns aren't boarding that car with evil intentions.
Current skyway cars are driverless as well. But security is at every station so doesn't seem so bad.
Probably why I haven't ever ridden the Skyway. That, and the fact that it doesn't go anywhere!
Well in the past four years, there have been 4.8 million trips taken on the Skyway. So somebody is riding it somewhere.
I'm a user. As a downtown employee, it's quite useful. If extended into certain areas near downtown, it would be useful to a much larger pool of people.
Quote from: exnewsman on November 17, 2016, 11:47:40 AM
Quote from: TimmyB on November 17, 2016, 11:01:05 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 16, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on November 16, 2016, 11:26:39 AM
Driverless? Not for me, but not for the reasons you might think. Simply a matter of security. I don't like the thought of myself and my wife being completely alone with no transportation worker making sure a bunch of clowns aren't boarding that car with evil intentions.
Current skyway cars are driverless as well. But security is at every station so doesn't seem so bad.
Probably why I haven't ever ridden the Skyway. That, and the fact that it doesn't go anywhere!
Well in the past four years, there have been 4.8 million trips taken on the Skyway. So somebody is riding it somewhere.
I get that. It's just not of much use to me, as a visitor to the city, which is probably why this discussion about expansion is taking place. The lack of any quality rail-based transit system is the one thing that Jacksonville is lacking, compared to most other major cities.
Thanks, Josh! I did see that about a month ago but thought the sunlight/my eyes were deceiving me. I think it looks a good bit better than it used to, though that's not hard to do.
Quote from: TimmyB on November 17, 2016, 11:58:15 AM
Quote from: exnewsman on November 17, 2016, 11:47:40 AM
Quote from: TimmyB on November 17, 2016, 11:01:05 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on November 16, 2016, 11:02:59 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on November 16, 2016, 11:26:39 AM
Driverless? Not for me, but not for the reasons you might think. Simply a matter of security. I don't like the thought of myself and my wife being completely alone with no transportation worker making sure a bunch of clowns aren't boarding that car with evil intentions.
Current skyway cars are driverless as well. But security is at every station so doesn't seem so bad.
Probably why I haven't ever ridden the Skyway. That, and the fact that it doesn't go anywhere!
Well in the past four years, there have been 4.8 million trips taken on the Skyway. So somebody is riding it somewhere.
I get that. It's just not of much use to me, as a visitor to the city, which is probably why this discussion about expansion is taking place. The lack of any quality rail-based transit system is the one thing that Jacksonville is lacking, compared to most other major cities.
I lived in Jax for 27 years. I rode the Skyway probably 4 or 5 times. Granted, we didn't have a Skyway for all 27 years. But still - it's useful for certain things, but it's very limited.
I worked in the Ed Ball building for a while and had the option to park and ride the Skyway to the office. I just took the bus instead (and usually walked home) as I lived in Riverside. Had I lived elsewhere, I might've been tempted.
Quote from: KenFSU on November 16, 2016, 09:46:18 AM
JTA just had a community meeting to discuss expansion possibilities they are considering.
Per the JBJ, Five Points, the Sports Complex, The District, the M.D. Anderson health center, and Springfield were noted as possibilities, among others, with the most popular public support being for the sports complex and Five Points
Not the best pic, but you can get a sense for some stations they suggested:
(https://s21.postimg.org/angjmjm5j/Untitled.png)
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/11/16/where-should-an-expanded-skyway-go-public-weighs.html
Here's another pic that shows the Riverside route:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxVebkLXgAA58mr.jpg:large)
Is the full presentation/maps used/minutes to the meeting, available anywhere for review?? That is the first time I have seen the map shown in the picture.
Quote from: RatTownRyan on November 21, 2016, 12:31:11 PM
Is the full presentation/maps used/minutes to the meeting, available anywhere for review?? That is the first time I have seen the map shown in the picture.
http://www.jtafla.com/media/Documents/Skyway/jta_skyway-forum-11_15_16-v3/1017/jta_skyway-forum-11_15_16-v3.pdf
The comparison matrix in the presentation seems to support something like this:
Quote from: thelakelander on November 16, 2016, 10:56:30 AM
Another option for extending at grade.....a driverless bus...
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/technology/2016/01/28/EZ10-pods-in-Finla_3447379b-large_trans++pJliwavx4coWFCaEkEsb3kvxIt-lGGWCWqwLa_RXJU8.jpg)
(https://www.theurbanist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/driverless-bus-760x401.jpg)
How would you all feel about something like this running on the existing infrastructure and being extended into surrounding neighborhoods at-grade (assuming they ran in their own dedicated lanes)?
I think the route to Riverside is a little too complicated and would hurt frequency. Would there be a way to take it from Riverside up Roselle to Park?
Fascinating report though. With the automated bus option, would you run that along the current elevated structure?
You'd run it on the elevated guideway. They'd replace the current cars.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 22, 2016, 11:46:35 AM
You'd run it on the elevated guideway. They'd replace the current cars.
I'm a little confused by this. Isn't there a gigantic concrete "rail" that the skyway runs on? Would that have to be removed for these cars to work, or is the rail simply not that tall?
Quote from: TimmyB on November 22, 2016, 02:24:01 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 22, 2016, 11:46:35 AM
You'd run it on the elevated guideway. They'd replace the current cars.
I'm a little confused by this. Isn't there a gigantic concrete "rail" that the skyway runs on? Would that have to be removed for these cars to work, or is the rail simply not that tall?
It would have to be removed.
^If you remove that concrete beam (see, yellow and blue areas in the cross section below) you're pretty much left with a concrete deck.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/Bicycle-Pedestrian-Transit/i-PDSVxVp/0/XL/jta_skyway-forum-11_15_16-v3-50-XL.jpg)
With the beam gone, depending on what the deck can structurally support, anything from driverless vehicles and streetcars to other types of people mover vehicles could possibly work.
Ask and ye shall receive! Thanks, Lake!
Concur with Lakelander that the Skyway IS quite useful. However, the sticking point is, I believe, with the type of cars that can run on the existing right of way. If the center concrete beam 'guide rail' were to be removed, then a number of options for expansion, including dropping to grade level, would be opened up.
We have a good starting point. It just needs to be modified, and then integrated with additional destinations which has been discussed above. My take would be to back a single solution for vehicles that would travel along the entire ROW.
Can't they update the cars on the existing tracks or does the whole thing need to be redone to accommodate more cars?
^That's one of the options under consideration. However, it also limits expansion possibilities.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 23, 2016, 05:30:56 AM
^That's one of the options under consideration. However, it also limits expansion possibilities.
Is this to say that perhaps squeezing a little more life out of the existing cars will allow feasible timing to plan design build contextually sympathetic extensions to accommodate newer vehicles which can then travel on a seamless unified system which involves a retrofit/upgrade to all current decks?
Brooklyn is at grade already, but where will a Stadium/A.Phillip Randolph extension drop and where will that ramp be located?
A ramp next to FSCJ north of RosaParks wouldn't be so bad.
A southerly extension from Kings Ave parking garage similarly wouldn't have to be an eyesore.
But. E.Bay street?
Where would the elevated structure lower and what will that ultimately look like?
I keep favoring dropping to grade with the notion that if every single station doesn't require elevators, escalators, overhead track... Maybe it will cost less to flesh out into more than just a downtown circulator
One thing that could be done with the Skyway right now is to create a link from around Jefferson Station to the Acosta Bridge! With all of these expansion and vehicle choice plans, the basics are forgotten! That would make a Wye formation at that point!
People wouldn't have to go to Central just to get to the other side of the river! One could go from the Westside to the Southside via the Acosta without having to go to Rosa Parks, or they wouldn't have to walk to the Pearl & Water bus stop. The Skyway would be more useful! At least, that would open up more options for the whole system.
There should be two initial extensions: Along Bay Street to Lot A at EverBank Field; this line would include 8 stations and park-n-ride for 7000 at EverBank Field. For concerts, sporting events, etc. this would be reversed and people would park Downtown and on the Southbank or catch the ASE at their hotels to attend these events.
Later additions should be to San Marco and UF Health.
Bruce
QuoteJessica Shepler, director of government affairs for the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, said that the agency's plan for its Skyway system tops its list of 2017 objectives.
She said the plan could include sharing space with autonomous vehicles, otherwise known as self-driving cars.
http://jacksonville.com/news/2016-11-30/mayor-curry-wants-50-million-state-knock-down-hart-bridge-ramps
Could reuse those ramp support piers to extend the Skyway to the stadium or is that overkill?
^Most likely not. Besides, if they're looking for vehicles to drop the system to grade, there would be no need for an elevated transit structure in the stadium district.
According to Jacksonville.com, JTA will be announcing their "vastly different" plans for the Skyway on Thursday. This is in an article discussing JTA's plan to begin testing autonomous buses within the next 2 years.
QuoteFord said JTA officials decided to maintain and extend the Skyway rail system. He said doing that with the current 27-year-old technology would be ill-advised, particularly with developing technology for autonomous vehicles.
Ford said the original Skyway was expensive and never lived up to its potential, and his staff is doing its research to avoid that mistake. The Skyway, with design, construction and materials, cost $182 million for 2.5 miles of tracks and eight train stations. The driverless system was ahead of its time.
The structure of the Skyway system is sound, but the vehicles are obsolete and expensive to maintain, according to JTA.
JTA staff members are familiarizing themselves with the technologies and determining when will be the "sweet spot" for JTA to make the transition to include autonomous vehicles in the system, Ford said. He wants JTA to transition to the technologies without gambling, embarrassing the agency or wasting money.
This year, the focus is on research and development, identifying funding, identifying partners, and looking at what locations would make sense for a pilot — such as down Bay Street or on a college campus, Ford said.
Ford said they want to keep the Skyway running for another five years with improvements and investments, but in the meantime are establishing a plan to move forward using emerging technologies.
The new system could cover a loop incorporating key locations in and near downtown, possibly including Riverside and the sports complex that includes EverBank Field and the arena, Ford said. He said they must consider connectivity to those and other areas and using Skyway to do that is cost prohibitive.
The optimal system would be flexible and able to travel at street level, allowing it to serve new areas, or on the elevated platform currently supporting Skyway.
"It will not be taking Skyway and extending concrete," Ford said. The extensions will "look vastly different than today," he said.
Ford said the proposed Skyway plans, to be unveiled at the Thursday JTA board meeting, could surprise people.
http://jacksonville.com/news/2016-12-04/jta-planning-pilot-future-automated-vehicles (http://jacksonville.com/news/2016-12-04/jta-planning-pilot-future-automated-vehicles)
Interesting but the Skyway never living up to its potential is directly on JTA not the Skyway. That's just like saying this dog is poorly trained but you did nothing to train it.
It's also on the city. It was built for a downtown that doesn't exist anymore and it was never fed riders by a regional system. Those two things combined, equal failure.
What's everyone's thoughts of something like this or autonomous vehicles running at-grade but on its own lanes as opposed to mixing in the regular traffic? Would this be enough to also provide the land development benefit of TOD stimulation outside of the central business district?
(https://assets.londonist.com/uploads/2014/09/i875/heathrowpod1.jpg)
Also, the article says they'd like to do a pilot project within the next two years. If they did, where do you believe it would be most advantageous for it to be done?
QuoteJacksonville Transportation Authority CEO Nathaniel Ford said JTA officials are in discussions with some autonomous vehicle manufacturers and he hopes to have one of them soon bring a vehicle to Jacksonville for a demonstration. He said their target is to have a pilot program in the next two years.
QuoteJTA staff members are familiarizing themselves with the technologies and determining when will be the "sweet spot" for JTA to make the transition to include autonomous vehicles in the system, Ford said. He wants JTA to transition to the technologies without gambling, embarrassing the agency or wasting money.
This year, the focus is on research and development, identifying funding, identifying partners, and looking at what locations would make sense for a pilot — such as down Bay Street or on a college campus, Ford said.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/2016-12-04/jta-planning-pilot-future-automated-vehicles
(https://electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/local-motors-olli-4.png?w=1600&h=1000)
Could something like that share space with the Riverside Trollies(buses)?
I don't know about this. The technology seems pretty speculative right now compared to fixed transit options that will have a lot more TOD opportunities than any bus, driverless or not. The only way I could see this working would be dedicated lanes on all or most of the routes. At that point, I don't see the benefit, unless it's substantially cheaper than rail lines.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 05, 2016, 10:02:14 AM
I don't know about this. The technology seems pretty speculative right now compared to fixed transit options that will have a lot more TOD opportunities than any bus, driverless or not. The only way I could see this working would be dedicated lanes on all or most of the routes. At that point, I don't see the benefit, unless it's substantially cheaper than rail lines.
What's the benefit of a driverless bus over a traditional one? Aside from saving a bit on driver salaries, of course.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 05, 2016, 10:02:14 AM
I don't know about this. The technology seems pretty speculative right now compared to fixed transit options that will have a lot more TOD opportunities than any bus, driverless or not.
It's not fixed, so flexibility would be considered a benefit to some. However, flexibility in terms of being able to run at-grade or on the Skyway's elevated structure is different than flexibility, in terms of shifting routes on various corridors or mixing in with regular vehicular traffic. If stimulating TOD and attracting choice riders are major factors of consideration, some form of dedicated lanes and ROW would probably need to be seriously considered.
QuoteThe only way I could see this working would be dedicated lanes on all or most of the routes. At that point, I don't see the benefit, unless it's substantially cheaper than rail lines.
Excluding vehicle costs, vehicle O&M, capacity needs, etc., if a lane was dedicated to it on an existing street (ex. road diet), then it would be significantly cheaper than building rail. However, without the dedicated lane, you'd lose most of the ancillary that a high capacity transit corridor can bring to an urban area.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Tampa-September-2016/i-xRtWMFX/0/L/DSCF2575-L.jpg)
Right-sizing an existing street by adding a traffic separator to create a dedicated lane wouldn't be significantly different than doing it for a cycle track.(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Tampa-September-2016/i-Q5CC7dt/0/L/DSCF2579-L.jpg)
Quote from: Adam White on December 05, 2016, 11:27:29 AM
What's the benefit of a driverless bus over a traditional one? Aside from saving a bit on driver salaries, of course.
^From a choice rider's perspective, that will be a challenge that will have to be answered as things progress.
This feels like how the idea of a monorail was romanticized 40 years or so ago: "This is the future! It's going to be great!" But then the idea never takes off and the few cities that were early adopters are left with expensive infrastructure that isn't supported nearly as well as other modes.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 05, 2016, 12:09:23 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 05, 2016, 10:02:14 AM
I don't know about this. The technology seems pretty speculative right now compared to fixed transit options that will have a lot more TOD opportunities than any bus, driverless or not.
It's not fixed, so flexibility would be considered a benefit to some. However, flexibility in terms of being able to run at-grade or on the Skyway's elevated structure is different than flexibility, in terms of shifting routes on various corridors or mixing in with regular vehicular traffic. If stimulating TOD and attracting choice riders are major factors of consideration, some form of dedicated lanes and ROW would probably need to be seriously considered.
QuoteThe only way I could see this working would be dedicated lanes on all or most of the routes. At that point, I don't see the benefit, unless it's substantially cheaper than rail lines.
Excluding vehicle costs, vehicle O&M, capacity needs, etc., if a lane was dedicated to it on an existing street (ex. road diet), then it would be significantly cheaper than building rail. However, without the dedicated lane, you'd lose most of the ancillary that a high capacity transit corridor can bring to an urban area.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Tampa-September-2016/i-xRtWMFX/0/L/DSCF2575-L.jpg)
Right-sizing an existing street by adding a traffic separator to create a dedicated lane wouldn't be significantly different than doing it for a cycle track.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Tampa-September-2016/i-Q5CC7dt/0/L/DSCF2579-L.jpg)
Quote from: Adam White on December 05, 2016, 11:27:29 AM
What's the benefit of a driverless bus over a traditional one? Aside from saving a bit on driver salaries, of course.
^From a choice rider's perspective, that will be a challenge that will have to be answered as things progress.
But Lake... what is the benefit of such a system? How is it any better than BRT, for example? Or a guided bus/trolleybus? Is it solely down to savings on salaries?
^I guess you could argue it is a version of BRT operating on dedicated ROW. From a technology standpoint, it could enhance safety by being less prone to human error than a regular bus (the Skyway is automated, so being driverless won't mean much to the average rider). However, it would still be advantageous to not mix with regular traffic, regardless of the vehicle type. Regardless of the technology, the best transit lines tend to be reliable, frequent, take riders directly to where they want to go, and efficient. Mixing with regular street traffic can hurt all of these things. On the reverse side, is the Skyway more beneficial if you can never afford to get it out of downtown?
Quote from: thelakelander on December 05, 2016, 02:26:15 PM
^I guess you could argue it is a version of BRT operating on dedicated ROW. From a technology standpoint, it could enhance safety by being less prone to human error than a regular bus (the Skyway is automated, so being driverless won't mean much to the average rider). However, it would still be advantageous to not mix with regular traffic, regardless of the vehicle type. Regardless of the technology, the best transit lines tend to be reliable, frequent, take riders directly to where they want to go, and efficient. Mixing with regular street traffic can hurt all of these things. On the reverse side, is the Skyway more beneficial if you can never afford to get it out of downtown?
I can see the driverless aspect being a bit of a novelty - mainly because they are buses or whatever. Whatever the solution, I like the idea of an expended Skyway or whatever it would be. This could end up being a "gamechanger".
Don't see how this is the answer. You still have a system that doesn't move a good number of people. Is there no way to update the skyway cars and tracks with out breaking the bank? I guess cost is going to be the leading factor in the decision process.
A couple more closeups from the Skyway public forum a week or two back, courtesy Jensen Werley, JBJ.
(https://snag.gy/u26GF1.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/JFl09Y.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/wQrX4y.jpg)
(https://snag.gy/jOFP16.jpg)
Looking into the future and how such systems are used in Europe, I could envision it connecting the AIR PORT [northside], BEACHES, SOUTH SIDE [NAS] and out to WESTERN areas. I hesitate to suggest shopping centers as they come and go. Terminals in the areas of those popular spots, possible. System is a candidate for autonomous operation, boarding passes, separate topic. During my NAVAL career I have seen well operated/planned systems and Jacksonville needs something to assist our horrendous BUSS system. Naples and Cannes have better BUSS management than we do.
I believe we will see driverless buses on regular bus routes before the Skyway (in any form) is extended to the airport and the beaches. At the end of the day, it's still intended to be an urban circulator system as opposed to a rapid transit line like heavy rail or LRT.
Does that Southbank route cross the FEC RR at grade? Whether the buses are driverless or not, having to wait for trains will kill any hope of keeping a schedule. Needs to stay elevated until it gets over the FEC.
On South Bank it doesn't cross the tracks, I believe there's a pedestrian bridge there right?
I was talking about the proposed extension. Right now, the elevated track stops just north of the I-95 overpass. A long way from the RR tracks. There is a pedestrian bridge from that station to the parking garage just south of the overpass.
^It would be elevated.
QuoteAutomated shuttle to Baptist Health? Yes, if a Florida House bill passes
Could self-driving shuttle buses come to Jacksonville in the near future? A bill filed in the Florida House may make that happen sooner than later.
HB 3831, filed by Rep. Jason Fischer, seeks $500,000 for a local deployment of the Olli minibus, a Local Motors vehicle made in part with 3D printing and powered by IBM Watson technology.
The Watson technology allows passengers to communicate with the vehicle, much as an iPhone user might with Siri.
That half a million dollars would bring two Olli shuttles to Jacksonville and Baptist Health Complex as the first working example of this technology anywhere in Florida.
The shuttles would be used for medical transport — Elite Parking Services of America would, in conjunction with Baptist Health, start up this two shuttle system.
The system would be the first in Florida, and could serve as a pilot to see if the program is practicable in areas of urban density.
The program is supported locally, including by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, home of the downtown automated Skyway system, a people mover that was expected to be a prototype for a future that didn't exactly arrive.
Elite Parking Services is a name known beyond Jacksonville; its owner and proprietor, Dane Grey, is a connected Jacksonville Republican who was honored by Gov. Rick Scott in 2016's State of the State address.
Grey, who also received a gubernatorial Young Entrepreneur award, is an unlikely candidate for the veto pen, should this bill clear the Florida Legislature.
The lobbyist of record on this bill: Kevin Doyle of Wexford Strategies.
Sounds like this one will happen then...interested to see how it works out. I guess I'll enjoy an earmark every now and then when it's for something I want ;)
Quote from: RatTownRyan on February 23, 2017, 01:18:01 PM
QuoteAutomated shuttle to Baptist Health? ...The program is supported locally, including by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority, home of the downtown automated Skyway system, a people mover that was expected to be a prototype for a future that didn't exactly arrive.
Sounds cool, but this is hardly the quality you are looking for from your endorsements list! :D Love to see it happen.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-03-06/jta-demonstrates-driverless-vehicles-jacksonville
QuoteJacksonville residents and officials boarded a driverless vehicle Wednesday to experience what likely will be the future of transit here. The rounded red-and-black vehicle navigated its way seamlessly through the parking lot across from Intuition Ale Works on East Bay Street. It slipped past a concrete pole without bumping the obstacle — and when a reporter accidentally stepped in front of the oncoming vehicle, it stopped.
Hmmm.
Very interesting. If the goal is to fill in the elevated portion then bring it down to grade with dedicated lanes, then this could be very cheap to implement. Does anyone know if these are electric or gas vehicles? It also seems very easy to increase or decrease the scale based on events. I was on the fence but am liking this more and more.
Quote from: Dapperdan on March 09, 2017, 11:16:49 AM
Very interesting. If the goal is to fill in the elevated portion then bring it down to grade with dedicated lanes, then this could be very cheap to implement. Does anyone know if these are electric or gas vehicles? It also seems very easy to increase or decrease the scale based on events. I was on the fence but am liking this more and more.
I agree. It looks like a good idea to me.
They are electric. You can read more here: http://easymile.com/
Just jumped on the Skyway to grab lunch at Sake House. It's amusing to me that all Skyway signage, voice commands, etc. still refer to FSCJ as FCCJ. What has it been, 10 years since the name change? Even the LCD ribbon displays, which you'd think could be changed by typing two letters on a keyboard somewhere.
JTA replacing Skyway Vehicles with autonomous vehicles is a silly move. Why didn't they just do like other cities and use them on existing routes. Someone got lazy, and they didn't want to procure new monorail vehicles! This is just First Cost Flyer with the old adjust
Unless I'm missing something, this is to complement the existing system, not replace it. So it's a great idea. Would love to see the autonomous vehicles being manufactured in the old Ford plant by the river!
This is pretty much what I had in mind when I pitched Jax to Amazon 8)
It won't complement. It will replace it by getting rid of the skyway vehicles and running AV shuttle buses on the elevated infrastructure and on the streets.
[quote author=SightseerLounge link=topic=28029.msg477052#msg477052 date=1516093151Someone got lazy, and they didn't want to procure new monorail vehicles! This is just First Cost Flyer with the old adjust
[/quote]
They said the cost was prohibitive. The technology is antiquated.
Ok that works too. I've been advocating for this for a while. Our street grid downtown should work pretty well for this application. Connecting to Five Point, Springfield/UFHealth, and San Marco should be the next step.
You can get to Shands using BRT now. BRT will also get you to Riverside when that line opens. IMO it runs on losing its luster when the talk morphs into mixing these little things into the same lanes as regular auto traffic. When you reach that point, you've destroyed the major positive of the skyway (dedicated ROW) and the potential ability to stimulate TOD along the expanded path. Once that's gone, you might as well save money and run a bus or AV on the street like Tampa, Gainesville and everyone else.
So basically, hinder an autonomous vehicle by applying the worst things about a streetcar.
Basically, that's my largest concern.....although IMO, it's also crazy to run streetcars in mixed traffic. In both scenarios, you hurt transit reliability and possibly clog up the streets moreso than they are today. It's sort of like advocating for sharrows when the most efficient and safe solution is to separate motorized and non-motorized modes completely.
^And how many people do these things hold, and how fast do they go?
If something like the Ollie vehicle, you're looking at 12 people max and 12 mph. Vegas currently has a trial version operating on real streets. Tampa and Gainesville will be doing the same, if they haven't already started. However, we may be the first to replace a fixed transit system with them.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:44:39 AM
If something like the Ollie vehicle, you're looking at 12 people max and 12 mph. Vegas currently has a trial version operating on real streets. Tampa and Gainesville will be doing the same, if they haven't already started. However, we may be the first to replace a fixed transit system with them.
Yeesh.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:00:39 AM
Basically, that's my largest concern.....although IMO, it's also crazy to run streetcars in mixed traffic. In both scenarios, you hurt transit reliability and possibly clog up the streets moreso than they are today. It's sort of like advocating for sharrows when the most efficient and safe solution is to separate motorized and non-motorized modes completely.
If they are not planning for dedicated ROW, this will fail miserably.
If you think the original "train to nowhere" was bad, the U2C will be a complete fail. There will be a novelty effect at first. Then, no one will ride! 30 years later and Jax is still making the same mistakes! They are just using autonomous technology to do the same thing as the old monorails. Why? Its like Jax is always always the experimental ground for what not to do! This is another shortcut to real mass transit to throw people of Jax off to the fact that the rest of town will still be dominated by roads. The First Cost Flyer was the other part of that plan.
It will be 30 years later, and Jax will finally want to have a real train. By that time, people will be teleporting to their destinations. This is a slap in the face to getting real transit down here.
If they wanted dedicated ROW, use the S-Line for the automated vehicles. Build that up until you have the ridership for real transit. I believe it might be a few other abandoned rail lines that could be used for this tech.
Ripping out the monorail beam of the Skyway is going to end up costing more than getting new monorails or buses.
They seem Hell bent on building this thing. It will just be another 30 year waste. Just when people were getting used to the Skyway, they want to tear it down for robot buses! How convenient?
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 16, 2018, 10:02:23 AM
[quote author=SightseerLounge link=topic=28029.msg477052#msg477052 date=1516093151Someone got lazy, and they didn't want to procure new monorail vehicles! This is just Cost Flyer with the old adjust
They said the cost was prohibitive. The technology is antiquated.
They can't fool me! The Skyway is "The Automated Skyway Express". Is it not? This is just the Automated tech on rubber wheels. Why go through all of the demolition of the monorail beam when you can use it for a new monorail? Imagine if Disney did that. I believe their monorail beam is smaller than the Skyway's. Make those small adjustments to the beam and get the new vehicles! This U2C is going to balloon out of proportion!