Reports are flooding in that a riot has broken out in Five Point with the possibility that police have turned Tear Gas onto the crowd.
Several Copters are circling over head with spot lights and the scene on the ground looks like a war zone.
Jacksonville Confidential Editor, Jason is reporting live from the scene that it is mayhem.
This is following an earlier report from Taylor Trastafarian that the entire fivepoints district was lit by sirens, this following a phone call that reported that violence at a show had gotten out of hand.
Jason from Jacksonvilleconfidential.com appears to be confirming that the violence started at a band show in five points.
Although the reports of tear gas are unconfirmed there have been two seperate mentions of it being used.
More coming.
After the fireworks I decided to walk to five points to see if there was something going on, and while there was something going on, there was no riot or tear gas while I was there. I left a bit before 11. There were a lot of people there, some of whom seemed to be attracted by the helicopter. Whatever was happening seemed centered around that 4 story brick building on Park St. I did not walk down Park so I never got a close look.
Yes, I think that's it. There is a bicycle shop on the ground floor. It was recently renovated.
The police cars were out front and the helicopter kept lighting the area behind the building.
I figured something not good was up when I drove by there on my way home earlier..
A ghetto bird's been swooping over the area for the last hour or so...
At about 11:15pm I was coming over the Fuller Warren from San Marco after watching the fireworks from the Southbank, I drove my usual way home (which was in gridlock) but upon getting closer to five points noticed park street was blocked off at post and again on the other side of 5 points. Large crowds of kids (teenagers, maybe early 20's) were running from the area with at least a half dozen JSO cruisers in front of the old club 5 building.
I should've gone in for a closer look, but being around the booze-fueld shennigans at the beach all day wore me out. Hopefully there's no gunfire/deadly voilence and it was just drunken mayhem.
wow! i am getting old....on metrojax july4th weekend at midnight :D
But i prefer to stay in on nights like this. As you can see, it's for the amateurs. Some people don't know how to control themselves when they drink.
From my impression of that area, I'm not surprised though it doesn't represent all obviously.
from what i hear two people were shot! does anyone know the actual scoop?
Those TSI hipsters had no place to go... and look what happens ::) I'm kidding folks
Hopefully there are no injuries.
From what I have been told, it related to the 5-points theater. They hosted some sort of rap thing last night (for the third week in a row) and all hell broke loose. Shots fired into the air, and people scrambling as the police arrived. Area businesses, from what I was told, are PISSED because the theater has hosted this type of event now three or four times, and the clientèle they are bringing in are less than desirable.
Let's just bring club 5 back! Thanks Mr Shad..
Anyway, the special events have been shady at times. Some of them remind me of the cool runnings nights club 5 used to host and the cops have been out in full force because it does seem like the type of crowd that might have alot of drug activity...
A few times it's just some high school graduation/prom party and what appears to be a buncha kids having fun and the cops are out "just incase" it seems.
Is this story getting ignored by the TV stations for some reason? Several thousand residents of the surrounding Blocks witnessed the Fiasco from near and far, and was WAY more spectacle than some random parking lot gunfire at plush... The copter circled with spotlight on for over an hour.It looked like an action movie set. Yea thanks SHAD..how many tickets were there? How many pissed off kids showed up and were turned away?Hmmm >:(
QuoteIs this story getting ignored by the TV stations for some reason?
Fear of bad publicity maybe? Nah, just kidding...normally they would be all over something like this with huge spotlights and raucous interviews from "exclusive" eye-witnesses. Kinda strange. I agree they need footage but they all have police and rescue scanners - they would have to had known about it. Plus the lack of footage doesn't prevent them for going after the fact and doing close-ups of blood stains on the concrete, shattered glass, empty tear gas cans etc. and a quote from Rutherford asking for more cops on the mean streets of Jax.
Over reacting seems to be the appropriate term, for this breathless thread.
I was there in the thick of it as part of the art shows for First Fridays.
People started showing up early for a Boyz of Poison (I have no idea who this is) show at the theater. Everything was going fairly well early on, though the line was down the street and the crowd kind of screwed up the whole art scene thing.
Anyway, later on the off duty police who were running the show realized that the people running the show weren't counting the number of people going in. I'm pretty sure it was way over capacity as there were easily a few thousand people who showed up for it. So the fire department and police decided to tell everyone else that was waiting in line to go home. That's when problems began... the people (a fairly young crowd 13-mid 20's I'd say) got pretty upset by being turned away.
For the most part they just stood around in the middle of Park St. A few fights broke out. Things didn't get bad until someone got tasered. Then people were running overtop of each other to get away... then they would jsut come back and the whole process would repeat.
Later lots of police showed up and they blocked off the street. The helicopter (only one that I saw) was hovering only a few feet above the buldings doing constant circles for a few hours.
Things I actually saw? Police in the full body armor set up, I saw the tear gas or whatever it was, a few police running up and down Park with what looked like assault rifles (but, they might have been the rubber bullet rifles, not sure)a few art patrons I knew got hit in the face by mace, a lot of small fights and people being put in the big police bus. The police told me that three people had been shot. I thought I heard gun shots more than once through the night, but it was also the 4th, so...
My understanding is much of the bad stuff ended up happening at either end of Park as that is where the police were herding all of these people to go, but I never went over there to look and see what was up.
We had to stay there the whole time (cleared up around 12ish) as the police told all of us it would be too dangerous to try to drive out. At times it would clear up enough on Park that you could go out on the street and take a peek around, but then a few minutes later another few hundred people would press their way in and it would all start over again.
It was pretty out of control. The guy running the show at the theater was really nice, eariler before all of this happened he was sending down his off duty cops to try to get people out of our doors so we could continue with our shows and what not. He hadn't expected more than a few hundred people to show up... so he was completely unprepared for the crowd.
Anyway, that's my perspective.
What riot? How much property damage is out there this morning? What shooting? The police involved shooting was in Arlington. What police mis-steps? Your quote:
"Dane, a neighborhood resident reports that the problem began when the police over reacted to crowd density on the streets.
They felt there were more people than they would be able to handle in case of a problem, and so they started telling people to back off the streets and sidewalks."
gives "Dane" omnipotent knowledge of how this incident began and what the police were thinking. Was he privy to the initial calls for police service? Does he have insight into the mind of each Police Officer? What was his location for such an observation? How is he biased? Where did you obtain the number of one thousand people? From what I have heard, this was a rap concert where a bunch of juveniles got out of hand and were dispersed by the police. It happens almost every weekend in Jax.
And by the way, I am always amazed when I hear reports such as these how experienced Officers "get real nervous" and over react, while the (usually juvenile) suspects who are causing a police response stay completely calm. How many injuries to these young "innocents" were caused by these over reacting, nervous Officers?
QuoteWhat riot?
From caravaggio's description it sounds like a riot to me.
QuoteFrom what I have heard, this was a rap concert where a bunch of juveniles got out of hand and were dispersed by the police.
Key word there being "heard".
You sound worked up over this...which is odd. I think everyone is just trying to flesh out the story. You have to admit that if tear gas was used, multiple people were tasered, riot gear suited up, helicopters deployed (cue Robert Downey Jr.) and possibly rubber bullets used it seems
really odd that the news hasn't picked it up. But then again stuff like that isn't a big deal because it happens almost every weekend in Jax...
Really? I thought that I was pointing out how "worked up" the reporting was. And I suppose that I misspoke, I haven't heard anything, this is the only place where I have seen anything about this. "Riot" is not a term that I would have applied to this, but OK, if that's what you want to call it, I'll go along. But look at the title of the thread,"Riot in Riverside! July 4th riot brings mayhem". Mayhem? Really?
JSO doesn't issue riot gear to patrol. The most you would have seen is a helmet. No tear gas either, just pepper spray in individual spray cans. In other words, the gas cannisters you see shot or thrown into crowds were not there. Pepper spray would have been used to help disperse a crowd AFTER several warnings. No rubber bullets, either. Not issued. The helicopter is used to emphasize to an unruly crowd that the police are there in force, and to comply with orders to disperse. Yes, I guess that it is quite unusual if your not used to it. That is the idea. Police might have deployed rifles if a shooting was reported. But it is common in situations like this that these "shootings" are false reports, and that seems to be the case from last night. And where did you hear about multiple taserings? But, even if there were, the taser is documented as the most efficient way to ensure the fewest possible injuries to resisting suspects and Officers.
I say all of this so that the fine people living in Riverside do not get the wrong idea about what happened in their neighborhood. We hear so much negative about Jax that I think that we should at least be accurate. I hope to sound reasonable and not "worked up". I do not mean to demean caravaggio as I am sure that he is relaying his observations. I am simply trying to explain how this response can be misinterpreted.
And yes, these things DO happen almost every weekend in Jax.
Quote from: stephendare on July 05, 2008, 04:08:55 PM
Well actually, the Times Union works on skeleton crew for the weekend, and the other guys were all doing other stuff.
Anyways Not Not, not to be a dick about it, but weve heard from 5 people who were there and you werent, so......
OK Stephen, your right. I wasn't there. I was however on duty last night and am somewhat aware of what happened around the city. But I will defer to your reporting. I'll be curious to see the news reports.
Not now, when you say "on duty" do mean that you're a cop? Dispatch? rescue? Just curious. It will be nice to have some personal insight on the multiple crime issues the city has.
I am a Police Officer.
I figured as much. Ok, so I'm dying to ask...are 40 more guys just like yourself the answer to the murder capital of Fla. If not, what is? What works? What doesn't? What would you like to see done?
As Stephen has pointed out to me on many posts, I am a biased observer. But if you want my opinion...
I think the answer is obvious to anyone who honestly looks at the problem. We have an extraordinairily large number of young men, mostly black, who through culture and economics have adopted a criminal "lifestyle". We can have all of the studies that our budgets will allow but the answers will always be the same:
1. For immediate action, yes, forty more Officers will help. More are needed but we should increase our patrol force as close to the recognized national standard as our budget will allow. It has been shown over and over in multiple cities that patrol presence suppresses crime. Check the stats, we are WAY below even the FL cities average when it comes to Officers per capita.
2. With the increase in Officers, prosecutions MUST follow. Even so called "minor" crimes, such as auto theft, should be prosecuted. This gives the State the chance to take criminals out of society, as well as steer juveniles and first timers into diversion programs. (Yep, gotta have em. You WILL save a few.)
3. We have a dysfunctional generation because we have dysfunctional parents. Offer classes and help, mandate the help when a child is identified as neglected, then have the nads to take the child away when the parents don't take advantage of the classes and help offered. This is difficult. It is not as difficult as shooting this kid when he is 18 and robbing a store. We have to do it.
4. (Not my area of expertise, but I know its broke when I look at it) Fix our public school system. We don't challenge kids and we don't keep them in school. We put our finest in two high schools, leaving the rest without leadership in scholastics. Our school system is cutting teaching positions this year. If there is a profession that is less appreciated than cops, it is teachers. Lets hire good ones and pay them to stay. We don't need administrators making six figures to tell us this. There HAS to be a better way.
Just my opinion...
Stephen,
I don't mean to sound defensive, I am just pointing out how your reporting is inflammatory. I am not trying to call you out, I realize that you are just repeating what you were told. I am trying to explain what was seen. The JSO actually has quite a bit of experience in "small crowd" tactics and has some experience in larger crowds. These concert and club "riots" are quite common. We also host large concert events and of course quite a few football games including "The Worlds Largest Cocktail Party". I won't go into each event, or the experience and education of police administrators, watch commanders, first line supervisors, and line officers, but suffice it to say that I feel that this is a very qualified agency. Crowd control is a science that is actually studied and national "best practices" are utilized here. However, as always, we are open to suggestions on how we could improve our performance. I would be interested in hearing your ideas.
Thanks for sharing your opinions. I've worked on the EMS side so I can only speak from personal experience but I think it'll be interesting to see what happens with the whole "Jax journey thing". Personally I don't see the additional cops doing much but more man power is almost never a bad thing. I think more foot and horse patrols could help. I agree about prosecuting. Things seem to be spinning out of control...or so the news would have us believe. In my opinion, leadership is a big part of the problem.
Hey, just to clarify...
The police that were on the scene were nothing but helpful. They did the best they could with a situation (from my perspective) that was fairly out of control. It was obvious that the people running the event were not expecting the crowd they got. The few off duty police officers that were hired for the event were overwhelmed until help came. Even then, it was difficult for them to keep the crowd off the street, much less to get them home.
Also, 99% of the people who showed up for that show were just there to have a good time and were completely fine. Yea, it sucked for me, because the usual crowd of people coming to the area for the monthly art stuff got shoved out. The problem was there were a few thousand people showing up for a show that was already full and being told by police to go home. It was just a lack of planning.
As for a few of my observations... Not all the police were in riot gear or anything, most were just in plain uniforms, some plain clothes. But, later as things got a bit mroe intense, there were some who were wearing full black suits with the body armor on the outside. We spotted the first of these officers during a clearer moment and someone else with me joked that the SWAT folks had showed up, because that is what they looked like, but the officer explained the he was jsut a regular cop. There were a lot of police officers who showed up in unmarked vehicles, not the cruisers.
Like I said, it looked like assault rifles to me, but I've never seen what the guns that fire the rubber bullets look like. To me it looked like an M-16, but it was in a crowd and they were running whenever I saw them.
It's possible that it wasn't tear gas, but lots of people came running down from a foggy looking area with their shirts covering their faces saying that it was tear gas and a few people I know looked they had been caught by mace.
I'm not sure I would classify it as a riot myself, but very close to it. We kept waiting for someone to light up a car or something. It wouldn't have surprised me with everything else that was going on.
The police were the ones that told us that 3 people had been shot. I never saw anyone get shot. I did hear what I thought were gun shots more than once throughout the night, many times accompanied by crowds running away from the direction of the shot, but liek I said it was the 4th after all and add to that all the yelling and the helicopter 40 feet above my head and it becomes difficult to tell.
Thanks for listening.
We do have a habit of preparing for the worst. We would be castigated if we weren't prepared. We manage large crowds without incident on a regular basis. By all reports, the behavior of JSO during the Super Bowl was complimented almost universally. 70,000 go to each Jag game and we don't seem to have any problems. More for most college games. We regularly work sold out concerts and shows at the arena, without rioting or mistreatment. The problem seems to be with what demographic makes up the subject crowd. I believe that this is the reason that Riverside business owners decry the "Cool Runnings" repeat. That show created problems no matter where it went on. The police response is the same concept to each of these events. Are we perfect? Absolutely not. We will always strive to improve. I believe the problem here lies with the planning. The promoter appears to have underestimated the response. With proper planning, a second show or a second night could have been planned. With advance notification, police could have dispersed customers much earlier, possibly preventing a gathering crowd. Perhaps the JSO can assist with planning such events, although I don't see a rush of promoters asking for help.
Sorry about your show caravaggio. The black vests are tactical vests used by some Officers. The rifles are AR-15's. These are semi automatic weapons issued to patrol officers. Pepper spray is an irritant and will definitely ruin your day, but our application of this chemical in patrol is as a spray. SWAT did not respond and would not respond to such an event. These are difficult situations for folks and I agree that the failure appears to have been in planning the event.
So, I'd been scouring the internet looking for some sort of reporting on what happened last night and this thread is all I could find! Figured I needed to join the forum and put in my two cents.
I was with two people last night and we started our night at Raglands around 9. The crowd seemed huge, but then again it might just be that I am not at all used to seeing so many people in Five Points at once. The crowd wasn't rowdy when we were first there and other than taking up a lot of space, it didn't seem to be a big deal. Everyone was pretty polite and OK to us when we crossed the street and the line to see what Bogda was showing.
The three of us left Five Points at about 10:35 to walk down Post to the river to watch the fireworks. I'd say the fireworks were over by 11, so we headed back up Post to go back to Raglands. As we got to Park, we saw a large crowd standing, looking down the street towards the Five Points intersection, then a lot of people running towards and across Post.
It wasn't too crazy yet and we couldn't really figure out what was going on, so we stood on the corner of Post and Park for quite a while, watching and trying to figure out what the deal was. We stood in the doorway of the art gallery there for a good while and at no time were we scared for our lives or anything. Some girls across the street started fighting using broken bottles and shoes, which was far and away the most violence we saw last night.
Things got a little hairier as the night continued. We DID hear a taser being used, clearly, at least three times. I don't have any idea if anyone was actually tased, but tasers were definitely used. Eventually the people inside Raglands were getting freaked out, herded us inside, and locked the doors. The Raglands people were panicking, understandably since I guess they felt responsible for the people buying their alcohol. Everyone was really nice and we stood inside watching.
Not all that much happened, in retrospect, but at the time it seemed pretty choatic. Lots of people running and then there'd be a lull, and then more people yelling. It was hard to tell if/when shots were fired because of the fireworks. We DID definitely see an office running down Park towards Post with an assault rifle and one of the people with me is former Navy and identified it as such. Though, who knows what a rubber bullet gun looks like! It was certainly intimidating to me. Also saw a cop with a gas mask although no signs of gas at any point. Lots of big cans of some sort of spray (mace I guess?) but never saw it actually used on anyone.
The helicopter made it pretty surreal. Everything calmed down after a bit and the Raglands people let us out.
So, it did seem very choatic but honestly we didn't see much violence. Just a bizarre situation to encounter in Five Points--a place that is usually so chill and peaceful. The cops were very polite and helpful and I couldn't at all blame them for being edgy because there were definitely a lot of people in a confined space. When we first walked up, my friend commented that there's no way the number of cops would be able to control the number of people if something terrible happened--sort of prophetic I guess!
The people from the crowd we talked to were funny and non-threatening. Lots of the kids waiting for the show asked us where we had been when shots were fired (we didn't know, we were down at the river) and if we knew what was going on. I guess I wouldn't call it a riot in retrospect because there wasn't any property damage or anything, but I can see that that would be an easy label to put on it since the situation seemed to chaotic at the time.
Anyway! I don't know if it will clear anything up for anyone but that was my experience. I'm interested to see how and if this is covered by the Jacksonville media!
--Kelly
Yes, definitely heard tasers. Maybe it wasn't the police who had them, who knows. Also, Navy friend says the assault rifle we saw could've been for rubber bullets, as neither of us knows what a rubber bullet gun would look like.
Thanks for your observations, once again, JSO does not issue less lethal (rubber bullets) weapons to patrol. What you saw were patrol rifles, probably in response to reports of shooting. No one was shot in Riverside last night.
This breathless reporting is apparently not entirely accurate and not exactly good for the neighborhood either. The statements by people on here alone shows how even eyewitness accounts can be wildly inaccurate. For example, people in crowds mistaking other sounds for gunfire, rumors of rubber bullets and shootings, etc, etc. Not Now is a professional and he obviously knows what he is talking about. Specifically, there was no one shot, the crowd was dispersed with typical police tactics, and these sorts of problems are unfortunately not uncommon in parts of Jacksonville. The real problem here was in renting the old Five Points Theater out to any sort of rap concert. These crowds tend to bring trouble with them for whatever reason and they are not consistent with the musical tastes of the area anyway. I would urge the owners of the old Theater to please not rent to these sorts of groups again. Hopefully this experience has been a wake up call regarding this.
I called First Coast News about this street action. The news desk claimed that they knew of the incident but decided that it was not news worthy. Hmmm...create diversion, don't report it...were they filming "Ocean's 14: Gotta Getta Gold Grill"?
Well, with all the down-playing of the incident on here, It was still disturbing to see it ignored for stock footage of a dark parking lot and Plush's neon sign on every single news report.THAT was newsworthy? did a Shad make a few calls? ::)
Geez! I usually go to metrojacksonville.com for rail transportation and Amtrak trivia!
As a non-resident of Jax, and after reading ALL posts to the forum topic so far, I can't help but imagine if I'd decided to spend a relaxing Liberty Day eve before the early Southwest flight in the morning, stayed at the Crowne Plaza, and check out the artsy neighborhood of Five Points to enjoy the holiday. Also, I'm a white male, tall and broad enough with suitablenesses to not be an easy mark, enjoy all kinds of music and will wander into unchartered territory to find it. BTW, I'd also be calling a cab to get back to the hotel. Once again, Geez!
I don't think tourism in Jax is geared for the whole family, and as it seems now, shouldn't be. I'm more upset about the lack of response from the major local media about this incident. I commend all of you for entering in, and hope you maintain a civil discussion.
Sounds like an early morning bus ride is just what the doctor ordered!
Thanks metrojacksonville for the information. We live here in Five Points and saw the helicopter, heard the noise and saw the cop cars that night. The next morning there seemed to be no way to find out what happened. I especially appreciate the two accounts from people who were there.
I have no problem that Five Points wanted to have a rap concert and there certainly was an audience for that concert. The real problem lies with the unprepared event planning, open ticket sales along with holiday timing and lack of coordination with the art walk. Just another reason why Five Points needs to create an effective business association.
QuoteThe TU is also working on this story incidentally.
Hmmm...wonder where they got that idea... ;)
I was sitting outside at Dona Maria's the whole time (after we tried to eat at Al's, but they closed at 9, whats up with that?), I didnt hear any gun shots. I didnt see anything that resembled a riot, more like a high school fight with a bunch of people in the street and running back and forth between to scene and wendys. It was chaotic but I think the people their made it that way, not the police. I mean, workers at wendys were running in that direction.
Yeah, I didnt know it was centered around the old 5 points club until we got up to leave Dona Maria's and could see down the street better. But the crowds would move in that direction and then scatter back toward the Wendys at the corner. It was very odd to say the least, our waiter at Dona Maria's actually went to the corner and and would come back with updates.
Quote from: lindab on July 06, 2008, 10:54:46 AM
Just another reason why Five Points needs to create an effective business association.
That is a very good idea. They should have had that already.
Questions?
Cool Runnings is NEVER at two places at once. Their crew is only about 7 people. So were they at Plush or 5 Points? Who was performing at Five Points Theater??
Banning Hip Hop from 5 Points is stupid and idiotic!! Triclops aka Ian Ranne has done many hip hop events out there in 5 points. 5 Points Theater should have consultants that determine what's allowed on an each event basis. Not all HIP HOP must go, That's not fair it's also backwards so don't be a TURTLE!!
I agree with the cop, young black guys are the problem majority of the time and it does come from bad parenting. That thing he said about the 2 schools was deep......I'd include Dougleas Anderson in that list as well.
It makes sense that Cool Runnings parties are targeted by JSO, "The leader" (who is almost 50 years of age) has boasted many times that "he plays for habitchual offenders". Why he did that I will never know but it is a quoted statement. :-[
People need to know the difference between knucklehead hip hop & good hip hop. It is not all the same. Kinda like Heavy Metal v. Indie Rock they are both rock music but not the same. peace.
lol... not too surprised to hear people quick to come with the sentiment of "All Hip Hop is bad". But I'm also not too surprised to hear that when we are stuck in the ignorant South. I do agree with Cooley though, you can't make a blanket statement about ANY genre of music. The crowd you'd see at a Kanye West concert vs. a Trick Daddy concert... VERY different crowds. Just as the crowds at a Smashing Pumpkins concert vs. a Slipknot are VERY different. Yes this situation could have been handled better both by the promoter and probably by JSO also. Also if the age range of 13 - 20's is accurate... what is a 13 year old child doing at a concert unsupervised? Much less, as a promoter, I wouldn't let anyone under 18 in to ANY concert anyway. As a side note, I never have and never will attend a Cool Runnings event, maybe because I'm smart. I'd also venture to say that if you went to one of their events I'm almost positive the crowd isn't totally a Black crowd.
This thread wasn't bashing Hip-Hop...just Ignorant Promoters.The MAIN question here was why this whole chaos was ignored by almost every news outlet. Metro Jacksonville stuck it's neck out and showed us why this is the way to get our news.
While I'm surprised that this didn't make any of the media's news, I don't depend, or even believe for the matter, all the news that the media prints out or puts across the airwaves. I know how the media outlets are selective with what gets reported and what doesn't get reported, for whatever reason that may be.
I agree, Ernest St, that its great that we can find stories that aren't on the MSM radar. However, I do think some caution needs to be applied to what someone earlier called breathless reporting. Word of mouth reporting is potentially dangerous in as much as, it can lead to a great deal of misinformation. A large scale version of this was after the anthrax attacks just after 9/11. People rushing out and buying duct tape and trash bags based on nothing more than speculation and rumor.
In this case, the potential for chaos was far less, but at the end of the day the shooting, tazering, and tear gas reports have yet to be verified, yet I bet many people are running with it as the gospel truth. This is the danger of citizen reporting. Not everybody has the ability to process what they are seeing with the same clarity, and rumor-mill has a tendency to run amok in these types of situations.
there is another term for "breathless reporting".
Quote from: downtownparks on July 07, 2008, 10:59:42 AM
In this case, the potential for chaos was far less, but at the end of the day the shooting, tazering, and tear gas reports have yet to be verified
lol.
Quote from: comncense on July 07, 2008, 10:02:38 AM
While I'm surprised that this didn't make any of the media's news, I don't depend, or even believe for the matter, all the news that the media prints out or puts across the airwaves. I know how the media outlets are selective with what gets reported and what doesn't get reported, for whatever reason that may be.
as you may already be learning, it might pay handsome dividends to apply that same judicious lense of belief to what you read on these threads as well.
Yup. "From what I have been told"That was taken from a friend who was in Fuel. She was nearly in tears when she told me all of that the night of the event. It was her words about the "clientèle" as well. I dont know if they were purple, or polka dotted. I was in Klutho Park enjoying a nice evening with my neighbors, drinking a beer, and chilling out after getting beat up by the eastside in a baseball game...
Interestingly, the next day I spoke to her, and her story was a little calmer.
You are a great quoter. Nice work. Thanks for the beer.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 12:31:43 PM
anyways.
Im going to Five Points tonight and find out what the week after opinion is as to the causes of the riot.
if you can, convince some of the actual eyewitnesses to come on here and let us know what actually happened.
This from the police logs of the evening of July 4th...
Some shorthand:
40 - civil disorder/riot/crowd
16 - traffic obstruction/hazard
33 - shots fired
77 - situation under control
18 - someone has been shot
61 - fight
pl - parking lot
air3 - the helicopter
56 - juveniles
97 - throwing fireworks
so here is it....
22:03:51 - calling adv large group poss 100-200 people going to start a sig 40, 16
22:03:52 - adv in all of 5 points
22:03:52 - overrode priority 4 with 3, priority of event = 3
22:26:30 - 33s in area
22:27:55 - illuminate the shell station
22:29:58 - still casing 1000 blk of park
22:30:33 - t77 no sig 18 victim...there is an individual that is being 33d at
22:30:45 - most of the crowd is to the east by the shell station
22:31:07 - also coming from the south....possible 61 in the shell pl
22:31:32 - need units to the south per air3
22:32:37 - park is clear...jus tthe pl of the shell
22:32:57 - 61 at the pl, need units on the northside
22:34:12 - need more units...still 33ing
22:36:42 - wendys is clear...indvs still at shell
22:37:50 - still 33s in the area...req more units
22:40:17 - indvs circling thge block and not leaving
22:41:59 - now moving twards post and margaret moving east
22:42:14 - need all veh traffic stopped
22:42:23 - need a unit at post margaret
22:43:52 - j162 at the southend
22:58:24 - k for jp/air3
23:01:45 - starting to group up just east of the shell again
23:06:04 - 400 sig 56s inside the club...club will let out at 2315
23:12:51 - club is shutting down now ....expecting a very large crowd
23:16:29 - 61 at the wendys per 6933
23:16:57 - 61 in the st southside of five points
23:17:05 - coming north towards the shell
23:17:30 - large group heading towards the wendys
23:17:51 - one male being chased by a group
23:18:05 - north thru the alley
23:18:29 - victim red shirt
23:18:39 - 148 t97
23:18:52 - to the left of the red brick house
23:20:51 - large group heading towards the intersection of five points
23:22:15 - 61ing just north of the intersection..some headed north twards the shel
23:23:52 - headed tp the otherside of derby house
23:24:33 - 33ing again
23:26:09 - need units margre/post..and sev units to the light at the inter
23:26:56 - 5 points calming down, need units to stay t97
23:27:59 - 61 in front of derby house
23:31:09 - 33 at 1000 park
23:31:29 - k717
23:33:08 - 33s came from park/oak
23:33:11 - dispo: z for jp/60843
23:34:43 - 33s at post/oak, no sig 18, everyone fled
23:35:01 - majority of indvs are just east of shell
23:35:07 - adv by apt 804 bm wht shrt blk shorts was on side of building 08
23:35:07 - hiding by a tree, cmp adv susp is on foot on may str
23:35:25 - adv at may/post officer need to go east 08
23:35:54 - adv susp running on may st
23:36:57 - groupig up just east of shell
23:43:22 - no units should be let thru
and then over the next 30 minutes or so 28 officers signed out of the area with one amusing comment in the midst:
00:19:15 - wow
If I missed any signals, here is a list:
13 Suspicious Car Or Person 64 Barking Dog
14 Malicious Mischief Or Vandalism 65 Rape
15 Special Detail 66 Molesting
16 Traffic Obstruction Or Hazard 67 Child Cruelty
17 Sick Person Or Person Down 68 Con Game Or Film Flam
18 One Shot 69 Contributing To Deling
19 Animal Bite Investigation Depend child
20 Powler Or Peeping Tom 70 Counterfelt
21 Breaking And Entering 71 Animal Cruelty
22 Family Or Domestic Disturbance 72 Dangerous Excavation
23 Hold Up 73 Drug Or Narcotic
24 Investigate Invesigation
25 Fire Or Explosion 74 Extortion
26 Cardiac/Drowning/Asphyxiation 75 Sex Offence, Non-Rape,
27 Insane Peron Prostitution
28 Deliver Message To... 76 Assist Other Agency
29 Wires Down 77 Situation Under Control
30 Abduction 78 False Personation
31 Property Check/Dark Report 79 Obsene Threats Or Phone Call
32 Burglar Or Fire Alarm 80 Vice Investigation, Non-Drug
33 Dischargeing Firearms Matter
34 Officer Calling For HELP! 81 Hawkins, Door To Door
35 Officer Requests Assistance 82 Shoplifter
36 Meet An Officer 83 Ticket Scalping
37 Petting Party 84 Strike Or Labor Union
38 Traffic Assignment Activity
39 Water Or Boat Accident 85 Carrying Concealed Weapon
40 Civil Disorder/Riot/Crowd 86 Lost Property
41 Arson 87 Damaged Property
42 Worthless Check Control Burn 88 Assault
43 Hitchhiker We Need 89 Illegal Burning
44 Abortion, Permission To Talk 90 Fireworks
45 Gas Leak 91 View Of Roadway Is
46 Aircraft Obstructed
47 Juveniles Playing In The Street 92 Sidewalk Obstruction
Railroad Accident 93 Blood Run
48 Industrial Or Construction Accident 94 Information
49 Report To....Hospital 95 Fraud Investigation
50 Found Or Abandoned Property 96 Assist Motorist
51 Follow-Up Investigation 97 Throwing Incendiaries Or
52 Garbage Investigation Fireworks
53 Someone Hurt Or Injured 98 Throwing Missiles
54 Illegally Parked Vehicle 99 UFO Investigation
55 Holding One 10-99 Request Control Number
56 Juvenile Complaint
57 Person Calling For Help CODES:
58 Bomb Investigation Or Threat Alpha - Unable to locate complainant/
59 Vehicle Maintenance verify incident
60 Suicide Or Suicide Attempt Bravo - Assist motorist/traffic
61 Fight In Progress India - Transported victim or witness
62 Cutting Hotel - Advised to re-contact if
63 Loud Distrubance further trouble
Kilo - Assisted (Signal 35) other
officer or agency
Is it possible fireworks were mistaken for gunfire?
fpj, AWESOME POST. thank you for that factual information. this is the kind of stuff that we can rely on!!
Okay, well, from firsthand accounts: there was tear gas, 50/50 on shootings. While I received several phone calls about the incident on Friday night, when I showed up Saturday, there was nothing indicating a large fight, or even a riot, had occurred: no property damage, no trash in the streets, nothing.
I would, in fact, though it pains my liberal conscious, put the blame squarely on the people attending this event. Even at 8 o'clock, they were getting out of control. One 5 Points regular went to move his car, parked right in front of the line, and several 15 year olds began harassing him, calling him "whitey" and saying they were going to "shoot his punk ass". Unfortunately, in Jacksonville at this time, we have a demographic that respects nothing but violence and money, and that has no parental oversight or control being exercised-- it's the same crap that made me quit teaching. I would chalk this fight/riot up to our city's inability to instill in poor kids that violence isn't the answer and money isn't the be-all end-all of everything. And, unfortunately, the kind of rap that this is-- the worst, crappiest, most unintelligent, and uncreative kind-- only fuels this by making every song about cars, drugs, violence and hoes. A Tribe Called Quest those guys ain't.
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
Okay, well, from firsthand accounts: there was tear gas, 50/50 on shootings. While I received several phone calls about the incident on Friday night, when I showed up Saturday, there was nothing indicating a large fight, or even a riot, had occurred: no property damage, no trash in the streets, nothing.
I would, in fact, though it pains my liberal conscious, put the blame squarely on the people attending this event. Even at 8 o'clock, they were getting out of control. One 5 Points regular went to move his car, parked right in front of the line, and several 15 year olds began harassing him, calling him "whitey" and saying they were going to "shoot his punk ass". Unfortunately, in Jacksonville at this time, we have a demographic that respects nothing but violence and money, and that has no parental oversight or control being exercised-- it's the same crap that made me quit teaching. I would chalk this fight/riot up to our city's inability to instill in poor kids that violence isn't the answer and money isn't the be-all end-all of everything. And, unfortunately, the kind of rap that this is-- the worst, crappiest, most unintelligent, and uncreative kind-- only fuels this by making every song about cars, drugs, violence and hoes. A Tribe Called Quest those guys ain't.
*yeah, that would be conscience, not conscious
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
I would, in fact, though it pains my liberal conscious, put the blame squarely on the people attending this event. Even at 8 o'clock, they were getting out of control. One 5 Points regular went to move his car, parked right in front of the line, and several 15 year olds began harassing him, calling him "whitey" and saying they were going to "shoot his punk ass".
well, at least we now know there weren't any racist motivations behind the angry mob of club-goers.
Quote from: fpj on July 07, 2008, 01:02:05 PM
This from the police logs of the evening of July 4th...
Some shorthand:
40 - civil disorder/riot/crowd
16 - traffic obstruction/hazard
33 - shots fired
77 - situation under control
18 - someone has been shot
61 - fight
pl - parking lot
air3 - the helicopter
56 - juveniles
97 - throwing fireworks
so here is it....
22:03:51 - calling adv large group poss 100-200 people going to start a sig 40, 16
22:03:52 - adv in all of 5 points
22:03:52 - overrode priority 4 with 3, priority of event = 3
22:26:30 - 33s in area
22:27:55 - illuminate the shell station
22:29:58 - still casing 1000 blk of park
22:30:33 - t77 no sig 18 victim...there is an individual that is being 33d at
22:30:45 - most of the crowd is to the east by the shell station
22:31:07 - also coming from the south....possible 61 in the shell pl
22:31:32 - need units to the south per air3
22:32:37 - park is clear...jus tthe pl of the shell
22:32:57 - 61 at the pl, need units on the northside
22:34:12 - need more units...still 33ing
22:36:42 - wendys is clear...indvs still at shell
22:37:50 - still 33s in the area...req more units
22:40:17 - indvs circling thge block and not leaving
22:41:59 - now moving twards post and margaret moving east
22:42:14 - need all veh traffic stopped
22:42:23 - need a unit at post margaret
22:43:52 - j162 at the southend
22:58:24 - k for jp/air3
23:01:45 - starting to group up just east of the shell again
23:06:04 - 400 sig 56s inside the club...club will let out at 2315
23:12:51 - club is shutting down now ....expecting a very large crowd
23:16:29 - 61 at the wendys per 6933
23:16:57 - 61 in the st southside of five points
23:17:05 - coming north towards the shell
23:17:30 - large group heading towards the wendys
23:17:51 - one male being chased by a group
23:18:05 - north thru the alley
23:18:29 - victim red shirt
23:18:39 - 148 t97
23:18:52 - to the left of the red brick house
23:20:51 - large group heading towards the intersection of five points
23:22:15 - 61ing just north of the intersection..some headed north twards the shel
23:23:52 - headed tp the otherside of derby house
23:24:33 - 33ing again
23:26:09 - need units margre/post..and sev units to the light at the inter
23:26:56 - 5 points calming down, need units to stay t97
23:27:59 - 61 in front of derby house
23:31:09 - 33 at 1000 park
23:31:29 - k717
23:33:08 - 33s came from park/oak
23:33:11 - dispo: z for jp/60843
23:34:43 - 33s at post/oak, no sig 18, everyone fled
23:35:01 - majority of indvs are just east of shell
23:35:07 - adv by apt 804 bm wht shrt blk shorts was on side of building 08
23:35:07 - hiding by a tree, cmp adv susp is on foot on may str
23:35:25 - adv at may/post officer need to go east 08
23:35:54 - adv susp running on may st
23:36:57 - groupig up just east of shell
23:43:22 - no units should be let thru
and then over the next 30 minutes or so 28 officers signed out of the area with one amusing comment in the midst:
00:19:15 - wow
If I missed any signals, here is a list:
13 Suspicious Car Or Person 64 Barking Dog
14 Malicious Mischief Or Vandalism 65 Rape
15 Special Detail 66 Molesting
16 Traffic Obstruction Or Hazard 67 Child Cruelty
17 Sick Person Or Person Down 68 Con Game Or Film Flam
18 One Shot 69 Contributing To Deling
19 Animal Bite Investigation Depend child
20 Powler Or Peeping Tom 70 Counterfelt
21 Breaking And Entering 71 Animal Cruelty
22 Family Or Domestic Disturbance 72 Dangerous Excavation
23 Hold Up 73 Drug Or Narcotic
24 Investigate Invesigation
25 Fire Or Explosion 74 Extortion
26 Cardiac/Drowning/Asphyxiation 75 Sex Offence, Non-Rape,
27 Insane Peron Prostitution
28 Deliver Message To... 76 Assist Other Agency
29 Wires Down 77 Situation Under Control
30 Abduction 78 False Personation
31 Property Check/Dark Report 79 Obsene Threats Or Phone Call
32 Burglar Or Fire Alarm 80 Vice Investigation, Non-Drug
33 Dischargeing Firearms Matter
34 Officer Calling For HELP! 81 Hawkins, Door To Door
35 Officer Requests Assistance 82 Shoplifter
36 Meet An Officer 83 Ticket Scalping
37 Petting Party 84 Strike Or Labor Union
38 Traffic Assignment Activity
39 Water Or Boat Accident 85 Carrying Concealed Weapon
40 Civil Disorder/Riot/Crowd 86 Lost Property
41 Arson 87 Damaged Property
42 Worthless Check Control Burn 88 Assault
43 Hitchhiker We Need 89 Illegal Burning
44 Abortion, Permission To Talk 90 Fireworks
45 Gas Leak 91 View Of Roadway Is
46 Aircraft Obstructed
47 Juveniles Playing In The Street 92 Sidewalk Obstruction
Railroad Accident 93 Blood Run
48 Industrial Or Construction Accident 94 Information
49 Report To....Hospital 95 Fraud Investigation
50 Found Or Abandoned Property 96 Assist Motorist
51 Follow-Up Investigation 97 Throwing Incendiaries Or
52 Garbage Investigation Fireworks
53 Someone Hurt Or Injured 98 Throwing Missiles
54 Illegally Parked Vehicle 99 UFO Investigation
55 Holding One 10-99 Request Control Number
56 Juvenile Complaint
57 Person Calling For Help CODES:
58 Bomb Investigation Or Threat Alpha - Unable to locate complainant/
59 Vehicle Maintenance verify incident
60 Suicide Or Suicide Attempt Bravo - Assist motorist/traffic
61 Fight In Progress India - Transported victim or witness
62 Cutting Hotel - Advised to re-contact if
63 Loud Distrubance further trouble
Kilo - Assisted (Signal 35) other
officer or agency
where did you find this?
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 01:25:47 PM
Notnow, man if I implied that the cops in any way over reacted, let me take that back.
yes, originally you had said that this all started because the cops thought the club-goers were getting to be too many out too close to the street (or something to the effect) and that it was actually the cops' fault that all this happened. but (fortuantely) that post appears to be edited now.
Quote from: getintoit on July 07, 2008, 01:26:24 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 07, 2008, 01:02:05 PM
This from the police logs of the evening of July 4th...
Some shorthand:
40 - civil disorder/riot/crowd
16 - traffic obstruction/hazard
33 - shots fired
77 - situation under control
18 - someone has been shot
61 - fight
pl - parking lot
air3 - the helicopter
56 - juveniles
97 - throwing fireworks
so here is it....
22:03:51 - calling adv large group poss 100-200 people going to start a sig 40, 16
22:03:52 - adv in all of 5 points
22:03:52 - overrode priority 4 with 3, priority of event = 3
22:26:30 - 33s in area
22:27:55 - illuminate the shell station
22:29:58 - still casing 1000 blk of park
22:30:33 - t77 no sig 18 victim...there is an individual that is being 33d at
22:30:45 - most of the crowd is to the east by the shell station
22:31:07 - also coming from the south....possible 61 in the shell pl
22:31:32 - need units to the south per air3
22:32:37 - park is clear...jus tthe pl of the shell
22:32:57 - 61 at the pl, need units on the northside
22:34:12 - need more units...still 33ing
22:36:42 - wendys is clear...indvs still at shell
22:37:50 - still 33s in the area...req more units
22:40:17 - indvs circling thge block and not leaving
22:41:59 - now moving twards post and margaret moving east
22:42:14 - need all veh traffic stopped
22:42:23 - need a unit at post margaret
22:43:52 - j162 at the southend
22:58:24 - k for jp/air3
23:01:45 - starting to group up just east of the shell again
23:06:04 - 400 sig 56s inside the club...club will let out at 2315
23:12:51 - club is shutting down now ....expecting a very large crowd
23:16:29 - 61 at the wendys per 6933
23:16:57 - 61 in the st southside of five points
23:17:05 - coming north towards the shell
23:17:30 - large group heading towards the wendys
23:17:51 - one male being chased by a group
23:18:05 - north thru the alley
23:18:29 - victim red shirt
23:18:39 - 148 t97
23:18:52 - to the left of the red brick house
23:20:51 - large group heading towards the intersection of five points
23:22:15 - 61ing just north of the intersection..some headed north twards the shel
23:23:52 - headed tp the otherside of derby house
23:24:33 - 33ing again
23:26:09 - need units margre/post..and sev units to the light at the inter
23:26:56 - 5 points calming down, need units to stay t97
23:27:59 - 61 in front of derby house
23:31:09 - 33 at 1000 park
23:31:29 - k717
23:33:08 - 33s came from park/oak
23:33:11 - dispo: z for jp/60843
23:34:43 - 33s at post/oak, no sig 18, everyone fled
23:35:01 - majority of indvs are just east of shell
23:35:07 - adv by apt 804 bm wht shrt blk shorts was on side of building 08
23:35:07 - hiding by a tree, cmp adv susp is on foot on may str
23:35:25 - adv at may/post officer need to go east 08
23:35:54 - adv susp running on may st
23:36:57 - groupig up just east of shell
23:43:22 - no units should be let thru
and then over the next 30 minutes or so 28 officers signed out of the area with one amusing comment in the midst:
00:19:15 - wow
If I missed any signals, here is a list:
13 Suspicious Car Or Person 64 Barking Dog
14 Malicious Mischief Or Vandalism 65 Rape
15 Special Detail 66 Molesting
16 Traffic Obstruction Or Hazard 67 Child Cruelty
17 Sick Person Or Person Down 68 Con Game Or Film Flam
18 One Shot 69 Contributing To Deling
19 Animal Bite Investigation Depend child
20 Powler Or Peeping Tom 70 Counterfelt
21 Breaking And Entering 71 Animal Cruelty
22 Family Or Domestic Disturbance 72 Dangerous Excavation
23 Hold Up 73 Drug Or Narcotic
24 Investigate Invesigation
25 Fire Or Explosion 74 Extortion
26 Cardiac/Drowning/Asphyxiation 75 Sex Offence, Non-Rape,
27 Insane Peron Prostitution
28 Deliver Message To... 76 Assist Other Agency
29 Wires Down 77 Situation Under Control
30 Abduction 78 False Personation
31 Property Check/Dark Report 79 Obsene Threats Or Phone Call
32 Burglar Or Fire Alarm 80 Vice Investigation, Non-Drug
33 Dischargeing Firearms Matter
34 Officer Calling For HELP! 81 Hawkins, Door To Door
35 Officer Requests Assistance 82 Shoplifter
36 Meet An Officer 83 Ticket Scalping
37 Petting Party 84 Strike Or Labor Union
38 Traffic Assignment Activity
39 Water Or Boat Accident 85 Carrying Concealed Weapon
40 Civil Disorder/Riot/Crowd 86 Lost Property
41 Arson 87 Damaged Property
42 Worthless Check Control Burn 88 Assault
43 Hitchhiker We Need 89 Illegal Burning
44 Abortion, Permission To Talk 90 Fireworks
45 Gas Leak 91 View Of Roadway Is
46 Aircraft Obstructed
47 Juveniles Playing In The Street 92 Sidewalk Obstruction
Railroad Accident 93 Blood Run
48 Industrial Or Construction Accident 94 Information
49 Report To....Hospital 95 Fraud Investigation
50 Found Or Abandoned Property 96 Assist Motorist
51 Follow-Up Investigation 97 Throwing Incendiaries Or
52 Garbage Investigation Fireworks
53 Someone Hurt Or Injured 98 Throwing Missiles
54 Illegally Parked Vehicle 99 UFO Investigation
55 Holding One 10-99 Request Control Number
56 Juvenile Complaint
57 Person Calling For Help CODES:
58 Bomb Investigation Or Threat Alpha - Unable to locate complainant/
59 Vehicle Maintenance verify incident
60 Suicide Or Suicide Attempt Bravo - Assist motorist/traffic
61 Fight In Progress India - Transported victim or witness
62 Cutting Hotel - Advised to re-contact if
63 Loud Distrubance further trouble
Kilo - Assisted (Signal 35) other
officer or agency
where did you find this?
i would like to know too.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 01:25:47 PM
Easy,
Did anyone actually see the band?
I still cant get over the mayhem level of the report. Guys being chased by gangs of people shootings throughout the night, etc.
Apparently, those with tickets were inside watching the performance while most of this was going on.
And, it should be noted, the guy being chased down the street was, most likely, one of the kids there to see the show, being chased by others there to see the show. It was NOT some person who came out to First Fridays and was set upon by these thugs.
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 01:38:00 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:29:06 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 01:25:47 PM
Notnow, man if I implied that the cops in any way over reacted, let me take that back.
yes, originally you had said that this all started because the cops thought the club-goers were getting to be too many out too close to the street (or something to the effect) and that it was actually the cops' fault that all this happened. but (fortuantely) that post appears to be edited now.
dude. why lie.
You clearly know nothing at all about this subject, and just need some attention.
dude. this is not a lie. other people saw it i'm sure. there is no need to argue. keep it on topic.
again, as you try to personally attack, you only show your true character.
fpj - how did you get that police log? can we get them publicly? if so, why didn't we do that before??
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
I am almost 100% positive that this was not affiliated in any way with Cool Runnings/Kool Runnings.
I wish i wasn't considering a gun, but Stephen, this is NOT to be chalked up the promoters beyond them hosting an event in an area that is not suited for such an event. This is to be chalked up to the idiot teenagers and 20 somethings in JAx who think the proper response to any slight or minor aggrevation is to shoot someone; this is to be chalked up to a failing public school system that creates predtaory, thugged-out drug dealers who can't read; this is to be chalked up to those same predatory, thugged-out, illiterate drug dealares who have multiple children and don't take care of any of them, even though they didn;t have the financial or emotional ability to support the first one, let alone the enxt one, two, three, or four of them. This is to be chalked up to Jacksonville's future: people too stupid and too violent to realize they are too stupid and too violent.
I am as liberal as anyone on this site, yet I feel that a segment of the population is forcing me to become conservative on so many issues.
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:43:12 PM
fpj - how did you get that police log? can we get them publicly? if so, why didn't we do that before??
Police logs are public records. Anyone can get them at the PMB or any substation by just walking in and asking for them. They charged me $3.00 for the transcript and $.30 for the incident report (#644442 if anyone is interested in getting their own copy). I did that first thing this morning since I figured since it was a holiday weekend they would be difficult to get any earlier than that.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 01:57:29 PM
Violence sucks, Easy. But there will always be the poor, violent and ignorant among us.
Fair enough, and i truly share your point. Just, being a Springfield res, and former public high school teacher, i foresee only more of this, on a much larger scale.
Police logs are public records. Anyone can get them at the PMB or any substation by just walking in and asking for them. They charged me $3.00 for the transcript and $.30 for the incident report (#644442 if anyone is interested in getting their own copy). I did that first thing this morning since I figured since it was a holiday weekend they would be difficult to get any earlier than that.
[/quote]
Awesome thanks.
Violence does suck. However, owning a firearm doesn't mean you are contributing to the violence. It means you are taking a stand, and refusing to let someone else break your peace without paying a price.
Any bets what percentage of these "33's" were done with legal registered fire arms, by individuals who are trained in the use and storage of them?
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
I am as liberal as anyone on this site, yet I feel that a segment of the population is forcing me to become conservative on so many issues.
Welcome aboard. It has been said that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality.
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 07, 2008, 02:13:25 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
I am as liberal as anyone on this site, yet I feel that a segment of the population is forcing me to become conservative on so many issues.
Welcome aboard. It has been said that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality.
I don't think it is "conservative" by any means to exercise one's 2nd Amendment right (recently affirmed by SCOTUS - sad it came to that). i don't think exercising this right actually should have any political ideology associated with it.
anyone see Morgan Spurlock's most recent "30 Days"??? had a 2nd Amendment hater go and live with these gun-lovers. i was completely surprised...at the end of 30 days, she actually DID kind of convert herself and had to admit that while she would still fight for gun restriction laws, she felt she now had an obligation to make sure the laws she was fighting for would not restrict the rights of law-abiding gun owners.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 02:20:05 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 02:18:03 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 07, 2008, 02:13:25 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
I am as liberal as anyone on this site, yet I feel that a segment of the population is forcing me to become conservative on so many issues.
Welcome aboard. It has been said that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality.
I don't think it is "conservative" by any means to exercise one's 2nd Amendment right (recently affirmed by SCOTUS - sad it came to that). i don't think exercising this right actually should have any political ideology associated with it.
anyone see Morgan Spurlock's most recent "30 Days"??? had a 2nd Amendment hater go and live with these gun-lovers. i was completely surprised...at the end of 30 days, she actually DID kind of convert herself and had to admit that while she would still fight for gun restriction laws, she felt she now had an obligation to make sure the laws she was fighting for would not restrict the rights of law-abiding gun owners.
yawn
while you may find the 2nd amendment boring, those who are defenders of the U.S. Constitution may find reason to disagree with you.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 02:27:57 PM
double yawn.
lol!!! are you serious? you find our Constitution and its Amendments boring?
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 02:30:13 PM
no, course not... for the record, this thread is about the riot in five points.
Are you going to be in Riverside today?
Please tell us what all you plan to do, I am very interested to know.
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 07, 2008, 02:13:25 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
I am as liberal as anyone on this site, yet I feel that a segment of the population is forcing me to become conservative on so many issues.
Welcome aboard. It has been said that a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged by reality.
Well, let's not start signing me up for the National Review just yet. It's also been said (by me) that that conservatives are just liberals who are greedy as all hell and don't care about the ramifications (e.g. global warming, modern slavery in Tom Delay's favorite Marinara Islands, massive poverty on a global level) of that greed, or the blatant hypocrisy of that greed in the face of conservatives' other favorite, Christianity.
/ends only somewhat related rant
I agree, Stephen, that we shouldn't lose focus, but it seems that this is at least tangently related to the cause of this incident: the increasing lawlessness of a broad swath of Jacksonvill'e population.
ok - so this topic doesn't go veering off wayward, someone just created a
"Stephen Dare and the US Constitution" thread in the "Politics" section...
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2676.0/topicseen.html
I think stephen is right - let's try to keep this one on the riots downtown.
At this point, there is nothing that "can be done". It was an unfortunate violent incident, perpetrated by senseless, violent, immature thug POSes, and handled well by JSO.
Something that I think everyone is missing in this, too, is that this was the 4th of July: spirits, and tensions, run high, especially with teenagers.
fjp, thanks so much for giving us the report. I was pretty interested in hearing all that happened on the police side, especially after reading how much doubt there was about those of us breathlessly reporting the events.
Ernest St- I used to live on Ernest St! Strange. Got broken into more times that I'd like to remember.
Now I live on Park close to Five Points and nothing much has changed or happened here since the 4th other than rumors, questions, and lots of theories as to why nobody is reporting this. I guess it's too late now; as soon as this thread dies down, I doubt there will be anyone covering the story.
I googled Boyz of Poison as well and came up with the same info--though I thought the performance was rap rather than dance.
I heard some gunshots in my neighborhood last night too...
No wait... It was just kids finishing off their 4th of July fireworks. :D
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 07, 2008, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
Unfortunately, I shudder for what this portends for our future. Again, it pains my liberal conscience to admit that this situation really makes me reconsider my personal policy against owning a firearm.
Eazy E - you are to be applauded for having the common sense and open mind to re-think your position here though.
I am almost 100% positive that this was not affiliated in any way with Cool Runnings/Kool Runnings.
I wish i wasn't considering a gun, but Stephen, this is NOT to be chalked up the promoters beyond them hosting an event in an area that is not suited for such an event. This is to be chalked up to the idiot teenagers and 20 somethings in JAx who think the proper response to any slight or minor aggrevation is to shoot someone; this is to be chalked up to a failing public school system that creates predtaory, thugged-out drug dealers who can't read; this is to be chalked up to those same predatory, thugged-out, illiterate drug dealares who have multiple children and don't take care of any of them, even though they didn;t have the financial or emotional ability to support the first one, let alone the enxt one, two, three, or four of them. This is to be chalked up to Jacksonville's future: people too stupid and too violent to realize they are too stupid and too violent.
I am as liberal as anyone on this site, yet I feel that a segment of the population is forcing me to become conservative on so many issues.
Finally!! Someone finally put the blame on this incident exactly where it belongs. Not the promoter... not the police... not the skinny streets or the weather or the holiday. It was thugs... pure and simple. They didnt get what they wanted and so they decided to tear the place up. Too bad they couldnt have dropped a net from the helicopter, scooped every one of em up and dropping em off at the jailhouse...
Pathetic...
It was the dance group, but there were DJ's inside playing mainstream radio style rap.
I went into the venue twice.
There is no connection to Cool Runnings.
Quote from: stephendare on July 07, 2008, 03:29:50 PM
Thanks Riversideratt!
How was the performance??
What did you see with the crowd?
any insights?
I went through the back to the stage area. The place was very full to the point where people were crowding the stage and being told to get off the stage if you were not part of the show. I wasn't there for the event.
I didn't see the performance, but was told earlier in the day that it was the dance thing. I watched the videos on YouTube of some of the other performances.... Not so much quality dancing.
The reports of 33's (shots fired) that you see in the log, could be reported by Officers or could be entered by dispatch after reports or complaints by citizens. The entries don't verify, or deny, that there were weapons going off. There probably were some firecrackers mistaken as gunshots, but there probably was actual gunfire as well. Probably into the air as there are no reports of property damage to homes or vehicles, and no wounds. For many young Officers, these events are a wake up call....leading to UNAUTHORIZED comments on the MDT such as WOW. For those complimenting JSO's response, thanks. This board often seems like hostile territory. Easy, come take a ride on the midnight shift sometime, I think that your eyes will be opened more than you know.
Quote from: NotNow on July 07, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
The reports of 33's (shots fired) that you see in the log, could be reported by Officers or could be entered by dispatch after reports or complaints by citizens. The entries don't verify, or deny, that there were weapons going off. There probably were some firecrackers mistaken as gunshots, but there probably was actual gunfire as well. Probably into the air as there are no reports of property damage to homes or vehicles, and no wounds. For many young Officers, these events are a wake up call....leading to UNAUTHORIZED comments on the MDT such as WOW. For those complimenting JSO's response, thanks. This board often seems like hostile territory. Easy, come take a ride on the midnight shift sometime, I think that your eyes will be opened more than you know.
I agree with the jist of what you are saying here, and I tend to err on the side of caution, however, from the Additional Information section of the General Offense / Incident Report...
On 07/04/08 while working off duty at 1024 Park St., shots were fired in the 800 block of Park St. I went to the area and was told by several people that a black male was shooting at another black male that was running east on Park St. Myself and several others searched the area for a potential victim and the suspect with negative results.
I found a shell casing [identified as a "Winchester 40 cal bullet casing" elsewhere in the report -fpj] in the 800 block of Park St. and placed it in the property room....so I figure at least one of those reports--from both meanings of the word--was accurately logged as a gunshot. I assume, too, that they probably were shot into the air, just as I doubt 56s would run in screaming waves away from firecrackers.
Also, while getting the reports and logs earlier today, a couple people were signing up for ride-alongs; I may do that myself [again] as they are indeed eye-openers, and I suggest any and all to do them.
--fpj
Quote from: NotNow on July 07, 2008, 06:34:21 PM
Easy, come take a ride on the midnight shift sometime, I think that your eyes will be opened more than you know.
Honestly, I doubt it-- not saying that in a pejorative way towards you, but i used to teach high school, so my eyes were opened beyond belief during that time. I am sure, however, that you and I could swap notes and stories.
I think the "race riot" thing stems from people trying to beat around the bush (on message boards) when regarding the kind of crowd the show attracted. I've seen mention of "these kinds of crowds" etc. all eluding to but not directly mentioning race. People have mentioned crowds not typical to the area and businesses saying that there were a lot of people that were not their usual clientele.
As for the news not covering it...i still find that really strange. I'm not buying into the conspiracy theory thing just yet but for them to say that it wasn't news worthy is just plain old crap. It has the makings to become mythic as to what actually happened and to whom.
I am very, very surprised that no one has posted any pictures of the thing. With as many camera phones etc. as there are and with people gagging to catch something, anything interesting to post online...and no one has any photographic evidence?!
Things like that make me believe even more so that someone didn't want any of that on the news - if that's what actually went down.
I can almost see the guys in the editing room cutting up the footage of cops with assault rifles storming down the streets of Riverside with the headline: Race Riot in Riverside!
The TU's lack of coverage doesn't surprise me though. They suck.
The reason why it's not being covered by the local news outlets is because no one was shot, mugged, carjacked, beaten, bludgeoned with a blunt object, raped or killed.
If it was a slow news week, maybe. But in crime theater of Jacksonville, this is child's play.
Quote from: thebrokenforum on July 07, 2008, 10:38:09 PM
I think the "race riot" thing stems from people trying to beat around the bush (on message boards) when regarding the kind of crowd the show attracted. I've seen mention of "these kinds of crowds" etc. all eluding to but not directly mentioning race. People have mentioned crowds not typical to the area and businesses saying that there were a lot of people that were not their usual clientele.
As for the news not covering it...i still find that really strange. I'm not buying into the conspiracy theory thing just yet but for them to say that it wasn't news worthy is just plain old crap. It has the makings to become mythic as to what actually happened and to whom.
I am very, very surprised that no one has posted any pictures of the thing. With as many camera phones etc. as there are and with people gagging to catch something, anything interesting to post online...and no one has any photographic evidence?!
A cop that was standing in the center of Margaret, with a rifle- was not facing me. I pulled out my blackberry, and was going to take a pic- however the flash on my blackberry could light up a baseball field. I didn't want him to mistake a flash for anything other than a flash, so I decided against it. Had I had another camera with me, believe me I would have taken LOTS of pics. There was ALOT to take photos of that night.
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
QuoteDoes anyone have any photos or videos to post?
It's weird there aren't any isn't is it?
"Well, let's not start signing me up for the National Review just yet. It's also been said (by me) that that conservatives are just liberals who are greedy as all hell and don't care about the ramifications (e.g. global warming, modern slavery in Tom Delay's favorite Marinara Islands, massive poverty on a global level) of that greed, or the blatant hypocrisy of that greed in the face of conservatives' other favorite, Christianity.
/ends only somewhat related rant"
I agree, Stephen, that we shouldn't lose focus, but it seems that this is at least tangently related to the cause of this incident: the increasing lawlessness of a broad swath of Jacksonvill'e population.
You forgot the part about where we eat small babies and grind there bones for flour!!
Regarding the pictures, I didn't have a digital camera on me and my phone doesn't have a camera (I know, gasp, who even knew they make phones without cameras?).
I guess I also don't know what I would've taken a picture of. Kids standing around? Kids running? When actual fights and scary things were going on, I was more inclined to worry about myself and the people with me than worry about getting proof of the event. I also assumed that the whole thing would be on the news and in the papers shortly and that I wouldn't need to back up my own story so much.
So bizarre.
Kelly, I wasn't trying to make anyone back up their story. Was just hoping someone had a pic or two.
(http://www.siliconvalleywatcher.com/mt/archives/Teapot-Tempest.jpg)
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
NotNow, is there a video camera side by side with the searchlight on the police helicopter?
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
NotNow, is there a video camera side by side with the searchlight on the police helicopter?
You know what? I can't believe it has taken me this long to remember, but there is a camera up at the top of the theatre building, installed by the guy who wants to put them downtown.
I assume there is absolutely no way to get this footage, but there IS a camera that probably got a LOT Of this.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 10:28:11 AM
Well now I feel as though its time to call the emergency rooms.
Several people in Five Points last night swore that there were actual shooting victims.
Those people are wrong.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 10:28:11 AM
I think most people who hang out in Five Points assume that they (the alternative kids) have the official disapproval of the city, and that if anything this major happened and it was their fault, there would be hell to pay.
Which I think is partially true and partially paranoid assumption.
Everyone wanted to really make sure that I knew it wasnt 'local' kids who had caused the mayhem.
I think a lot of frequenters and business owners want people to realize that, no, the regulars weren't responsible for this. 5 Points is already unfairly maligned by Ortegans and Avondalers as 'dangerous' or 'run down', based on their perceptions that it's the same place it was in 1993. Everyone is stressing that it wasn't the 'local' kids, because it wasn't and we are tired of seeing the neighborhood continually mischaracterized, and know that this event will only lead to more of that unless we all point out that it was because of a crowd and demographic that does not come to 5 Points all that often.
Plus, to be truthful, you can chalk it all up to the crowd-- nothing like this ever takes place, and then bam! you put a bunch of dumb, violent kids in there and look what happens.
Well, I got pulled over randomly about 8:45 pm on Margaret st on my Mountain bike by an officer hoping to find some warrants on me...why else would you pull over a bicycle on the sidewalk.? I was so tempted to say" Don't taze me Bro!" ::) When I mentioned the riot he waved me off saying he wasn't on duty that night.
Quote from: Ernest Street on July 08, 2008, 12:46:22 PM
Well, I got pulled over randomly about 8:45 pm on my Mountain bike by an officer hoping to find some warrants on me...why else would you pull over a bicycle on the sidewalk.? I was so tempted to say" Don't taze me Bro!" ::)
I actually got stopped several times that night on my bike because I didn't have a flashing light. Given it being the 4th, and all the craziness that goes with that, I totally understood being pulled over. Did you have a light? If not, that is probably why.
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
NotNow, is there a video camera side by side with the searchlight on the police helicopter?
You know what? I can't believe it has taken me this long to remember, but there is a camera up at the top of the theatre building, installed by the guy who wants to put them downtown.
I assume there is absolutely no way to get this footage, but there IS a camera that probably got a LOT Of this.
That camera was removed a couple weeks ago...
I got pulled over last night.(monday) I have a headlight, but the taillight fell off. Even though I knew my record was ok, It's unnerving when they walk off with your ID..
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
NotNow, is there a video camera side by side with the searchlight on the police helicopter?
There are cameras onboard, but they are not normally recorded unless they are downlinked. This is not done for normal patrol and I am sure that there was no down link for this.
A comment at UJ
Travis Says: 07/08/2008 11:27 am
I still think everything was being blown way out of proportion. I was working at St. Vincent’s that night and absolutely nothing came in through the ER related to this sort of thing. Actually it was a lot more quiet than the last few 4th’s I’ve worked there.
When they’d have the parties and shit at the hall across from Shantytown, the kids would always get unruly and it wasn’t on the news either. We can try and be all PC about it but guess what? These type of shows draw in a bad crowd and shit always happens. Always. If it had been an actual riot, there’d be pics and vids of it everywhere. Everyone has a camera or phone now. The business owners around there aren’t going to say shit because then they’ll have to defend themselves against claims of racism and that the kids there were just looking to have a good time and that the lack of venue space led to “disenfranchisement and some physical manifestations of their urban plightâ€. I wouldn’t want to have to deal with that bullshit either.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 01:46:39 PM
It seems pretty orwellian that there are several people who are frantically trying to call it anything besides a riot because they are afraid of charges of racism.
That seems in and of itself pretty weird.
i agree...EazyE had this to report yesterday I believe...i think there was some racism there...
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:19:12 PM
One 5 Points regular went to move his car, parked right in front of the line, and several 15 year olds began harassing him, calling him "whitey" and saying they were going to "shoot his punk ass". Unfortunately, in Jacksonville at this time, we have a demographic that respects nothing but violence and money, and that has no parental oversight or control being exercised-- it's the same crap that made me quit teaching. I would chalk this fight/riot up to our city's inability to instill in poor kids that violence isn't the answer and money isn't the be-all end-all of everything. And, unfortunately, the kind of rap that this is-- the worst, crappiest, most unintelligent, and uncreative kind-- only fuels this by making every song about cars, drugs, violence and hoes.
Stephen, it's all good. :)
--
I'd just like to point out that this story and the way it's being reported and mulled over is very similar to how ancient history was created. You have numerous and different versions of the story that eventually get collected by an authority who then edits the story to their liking and then prints it. We may never know exactly what happened but there sure are some strong opinions about it - mostly by people who weren't there!
Who said it didn't happen? All I have seen is a few who commented on "citizen reporting" and the potential for folly.
Wasn't there, but I would be willing to bet the police did not just tell the "black people" to get the hell outta dodge, especially when looking at the reports posted here, if there was gun fire, and they brought tear gas they would have been telling everyone to get out. Or maybe they just wanted the white people to get shot and gassed, this in and of itself would point out the cops were not being racists against the blacks, they gave them fair warning to get out before they got gassed, I guess their real intent was to gas the unsuspecting white folks since they did not ask them to leave? I think some just like to try and make everything racial.
Quote from: Downtown Dweller on July 08, 2008, 02:57:55 PM
Wasn't there, but I would be willing to bet the police did not just tell the "black people" to get the hell outta dodge, especially when looking at the reports posted here, if there was gun fire, and they brought tear gas they would have been telling everyone to get out. Or maybe they just wanted the white people to get shot and gassed, this in and of itself would point out the cops were not being racists against the blacks, they gave them fair warning to get out before they got gassed, I guess their real intent was to gas the unsuspecting white folks since they did not ask them to leave? I think some just like to try and make everything racial.
LOL - NO!!! you are WRONG DowntownDweller! The cops here are racist and HATE black people. Even the black cops hate black people. Sheriff Rutherford makes them promise two things when they sign on...
1) they will uphold the law
2) they will hate black people
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:50:07 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
That camera was removed a couple weeks ago...
I don't think so. It was there 2 weeks ago when I noticed it. I am talking the upper NW corner, WAY up above Boger's shoes.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:03:16 PM
Quote from: Driven1 on July 08, 2008, 03:01:22 PM
Quote from: Downtown Dweller on July 08, 2008, 02:57:55 PM
Wasn't there, but I would be willing to bet the police did not just tell the "black people" to get the hell outta dodge, especially when looking at the reports posted here, if there was gun fire, and they brought tear gas they would have been telling everyone to get out. Or maybe they just wanted the white people to get shot and gassed, this in and of itself would point out the cops were not being racists against the blacks, they gave them fair warning to get out before they got gassed, I guess their real intent was to gas the unsuspecting white folks since they did not ask them to leave? I think some just like to try and make everything racial.
LOL - NO!!! you are WRONG DowntownDweller! The cops here are racist and HATE black people. Even the black cops hate black people. Sheriff Rutherford makes them promise two things when they sign on...
1) they will uphold the law
2) they will hate black people
This is uncalled for and inappropriate.
ROFL!! The irony. Clem...you gotta see this. Downtown Dweller... DTP... Joe...
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 02:25:09 PM
That said, it was a riot, and its troubling that it seems there are a few that would rather make up a different word or pretend it didnt happen.
MMMMM, from talking to the business owners around there, I think they'd tell you, as they told me, that some scary, crazy, truly f**ked up sh*t happened that night, but they would point out that it only happened because of the crowd and its response to being told to leave. And i think they would indicate that the crowd is not the usual patrons of the Points. There is nothing wrong with businesses wanting people to know the area is normally quite safe, save for this unfortunate incident caused by a bunch of thugs.
And as a side note, I know at a NOFX show in 1998 at the old Milk Bar on Adams, when it was sold out, and there were tons of kids on the sidewalk trying to somehow get in, that the cops made them leave, too.
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 03:13:28 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:50:07 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
That camera was removed a couple weeks ago...
I don't think so. It was there 2 weeks ago when I noticed it. I am talking the upper NW corner, WAY up above Boger's shoes.
Just looked. Still gone.
Quote from: Eazy Ecaused by a bunch of thugs.
Careful, our board thought police will call you a racist.
That said, it does sound like it was bad, with a possibility to get much worse. To be franks, it doesn't sound much different than the handful of events that the Temple across from Shanty hosted. When the police came in to disperse the crown (After shootings) they ran amoke, throwing things at cars, shooting guns into the air, doing circles around the block with bass cranked to 11 (its one louder than 10).
A group of us were ready to sue the Temple to keep them from hosting any events when they conceeded the point, and have promised to never host a youth event again. The bible study, weddings, and baby showers seem to be much more peaceful than the youth oriented party's.
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 03:21:06 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 03:13:28 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:50:07 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 12:35:17 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 09:23:59 AM
Does anyone have any photos or videos to post?
That camera was removed a couple weeks ago...
I don't think so. It was there 2 weeks ago when I noticed it. I am talking the upper NW corner, WAY up above Boger's shoes.
Just looked. Still gone.
huh, that's really weird.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:33:37 PM
But is it really OK for the police to tell an entire crowd of people, no matter what their color to simply leave an entire area?
here is a "thought police" computer programming "IF-THEN" stmt to answer your ponderings...
IF the City is Jacksonville THEN
IF the crowd is black THEN
YES, it is ok to tell them to leave.
ELSE
NO, it is not ok to tell them to leave.
END IF
END IF
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:33:37 PM
But is it really OK for the police to tell an entire crowd of people, no matter what their color to simply leave an entire area?
And I mean to ask this question divorced of the backdrop of the Five Points riot.
YES, it is appropriate. The police must be concerned with public saftey, both to a persons body or property. In this case, as in any other unpermitted gathering they have not only a right, but a duty to clear the place out.
I find it interesting that this question was even posed (catch 22), as we all know if the police had done nothing and allowed the "mischief" to grow and culminate they would have been blamed and most likely sued for not clearing the place out.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:33:37 PM
But is it really OK for the police to tell an entire crowd of people, no matter what their color to simply leave an entire area?
Stephen, I do have to say an emphatic 'yes!' to this, despite my love of the Constitution and all its freedoms. If you were in 5 Points that night, as I was, from when the first people lined up until almost 9:30, you could tell these kids were going to be trouble. I am basing this on their actions and the fact that I have been around these kids before, and my experiences with the temple across from Shanty referenced by DTP.
Once you have witnessed the melee of a teen party held by young black kids from Jacksonville, you will be prepared to recognize it before it happens.
Unfortunately, I can tell this will already get me branded as a racist, though I feel I am simply stating the truth. THis is now the 4th teen party is less than a year I have witnessed, and all have ended with gunshots and police.
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 03:40:21 PM
Stephen, I do have to say an emphatic 'yes!' to this, despite my love of the Constitution and all its freedoms. If you were in 5 Points that night, as I was, from when the first people lined up until almost 9:30, you could tell these kids were going to be trouble. I am basing this on their actions and the fact that I have been around these kids before, and my experiences with the temple across from Shanty referenced by DTP.
Once you have witnessed the melee of a teen party held by young black kids from Jacksonville, you will be prepared to recognize it before it happens.
Unfortunately, I can tell this will already get me branded as a racist, though I feel I am simply stating the truth. THis is now the 4th teen party is less than a year I have witnessed, and all have ended with gunshots and police.
be prepared to be called a bigot as well.
Quote from: Driven1 on July 08, 2008, 03:42:54 PM
be prepared to be called a bigot as well.
I am.
But, in this instance, I feel I am simply stating the facts as I have personally witnessed them.
I didn't mean there was anything wrong with asking...I meant it was an interesting question, in that in either action the police took there would be some slamming them (maybe not you...just speaking in general).
I also wouldn't equate this to "nightlife", 13 year olds (one report stated 13-30 year olds) shouldn’t have “nightlife" I guess we just have to disagree on this, I think the police have a duty to disperse unruly crowds whether it is Sunday afternoon at Bethel or Friday night at Five Points. It is their job. If the crowd is unruly, destructive, violent, and/or did not obtain a permit to gather they need to be dispersed.
From the Ashley Towers thread:
Quote
As a result, the place is swarming with the expected connoissuers of cheap malt liquor, who are so adept at their passion that they are able to immediately able to recycle the beverage at body temperature all over the streets, leaving a distinct aroma of distressed liver for the residents to inhale as they enter their homes.
Does that mean you're bigoted to the vagrants? ;)
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 02:25:09 PM
That said, it was a riot, and its troubling that it seems there are a few that would rather make up a different word or pretend it didnt happen.
Under the very loosest definitions, it was a "riot". However, the gunfire, tear gas et al were exaggerations added on later for dramatic flourish by various individuals who are more interested in drama than in reality.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 02:26:19 PM
Quote from: thebrokenforum on July 08, 2008, 02:05:08 PM
Stephen, it's all good. :)
--
I'd just like to point out that this story and the way it's being reported and mulled over is very similar to how ancient history was created. You have numerous and different versions of the story that eventually get collected by an authority who then edits the story to their liking and then prints it. We may never know exactly what happened but there sure are some strong opinions about it - mostly by people who weren't there!
awesome point BF. its also how news stories are created in mainstream media. We just don't get to see this process going on at their desks.
Look at global warming, for example. It is just a media induced hysteria.
stephendare - you think all Christians are gay and that AIDS only happens to middle-aged white males like Ryan White. well, good sir, I've got news for you!
YOU ARE WRONG. AIDS strikes all people of all color and sexual preferences.
you also think you are the local thought police. and OF COURSE I am a bigot!!! as has been pointed out by DowntownDweller, Eazy E, Clem1029, Doctor_K, RiversideGator, Joe, DownTownParks and a WHOLE HOST OF OTHERS ----> anyone who disagrees with you is a fundamentalist, racist, bigot REPUBLICAN!!
now go spread your communist beliefs elsewhere my friend.
and seriously - are you ever going to call or IM me about tomorrow's Bible Study?
QuoteLook at global warming, for example.
Or religion.
so - did the "riots" really happen? is Nessie still alive over in Scotland?
questions we may never know the answer to.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:33:37 PM
Whatever agenda is being pursued by all of this 'thought police' chatter, Im sure its as much of a yawn as the idea that 'nothing happened"
But is it really OK for the police to tell an entire crowd of people, no matter what their color to simply leave an entire area?
And I mean to ask this question divorced of the backdrop of the Five Points riot.
Its especially ironic because the kids in Five Points have had the same problem themselves.
Yes. Loitering is still a crime. You cannot just hang out just because you want to. You have to have some legitimate purpose.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:56:31 PM
Downtown Dweller.
In 1992, when we were pioneering Five Points as an alternative district, the locals felt the same way about the Alternative Kids.
Here is where Stephen attempts to take credit for the revitalization of Five Points.
QuoteLed by a local Republican Lesbian by the name of Flo Hyman (try that name on for size) After all the shops were closed, they repeatedly tried to clear the streets of any and all 'punks'.
Some of those 'punks' are presently running our libraries, churches, schools, and most of the local shops in all three historic areas.
None of us needed to be 'cleared' from the streets.
This isnt really a police matter. I think its been so long since Fitzhugh Powell and the old boys shut down the downtown out of fear and disgust of those communist hippies called Lynyrd Skynyrd, and Molly Hatchet back in the late 70s and early 80s, that we have never fully regained our trust of streets filled with people.
I think crowds are looked on as a danger, in general, and I also think that it has hurt our city.
And, here is where he blames various nefarious right wingers for killing this era of free love. :D
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:00:10 PM
Its a cliche to remind that we are all a little bit racist, sometimes.
That is a fact of life.
But it doesnt mean that we shouldnt try NOT to be, or that we shouldnt learn to have better instincts.
If we are serious about creating a great city, a great nightlife is part of that.
We will never have street life and out door performers and bustling thoroughfares of the type we all talk about in the pictures of other cities if we continue to fear crowds.
In fact its the opposite that is true. The more people there are on a street, the safer it usually is.
And how are we ever going to get to that place if we are all condoning the arbitrary clearing of crowds from whole neighborhoods?
I agree, BUT it appears from posters here, and the police reports this crowd was not just hanging out enjoying the nightlife, they were fistfighting, racially profiling and threatening, shooting off firearms. There is a big difference between street performances and this chaos.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:00:10 PM
Its a cliche to remind that we are all a little bit racist, sometimes.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:08:10 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on July 08, 2008, 03:56:50 PM
Does that mean you're bigoted to the vagrants? ;)
Probably, yes.
OK - so here we finally have it. In one thread - on one page even - you admit that you are:
1) a racist
2) a bigot
wow.
are you sure you're not a closet Republican? :)
Quote from: thebrokenforum on July 08, 2008, 04:02:52 PM
QuoteLook at global warming, for example.
Or religion.
Religion is being pushed by the media? Quite the opposite. The media is actively hostile to mainstream religion (although it does celebrate religions which are not the mainstream in the US).
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:11:52 PM
Is this about your favorite fixation and object of erotic fantasy---me.
That is simultaneously hilarious and disgusting. :D
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 08, 2008, 04:13:53 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:11:52 PM
Is this about your favorite fixation and object of erotic fantasy---me.
That is simultaneously hilarious and disgusting. :D
oh yeah...lol - i forgot one thing...anyone who strongly disagrees with him is secretly & passionately obsessed with him!
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 08, 2008, 04:11:46 PM
Religion is being pushed by the media? Quite the opposite. The media is actively hostile to mainstream religion (although it does celebrate religions which are not the mainstream in the US).
Sometimes, RG, I am convinced you are a hilarious, subversive comedian.
How else to explain this and your global warming quotes?
As a Christian myself, I am sick of how what should be a private personal relationship with Christ is pimped out for money and fame at every chance people get.
Really? Hostile to religion? That is pure and simple BS, just as is your quote on how "the media created global warming"!!!!
Right, because global warming is so in line with corporate media values and is so good for their bottom line, right? Maybe you'd like to go tell the people dying from massive famine and draught how you don't believe in what's happening to them.
Can we stick to the general topic at hand? The rest of the personal bickering back and forth needs to go.
Quote from: Driven1 on July 08, 2008, 04:04:10 PM
so - did the "riots" really happen? is Nessie still alive over in Scotland?
questions we may never know the answer to.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2008, 04:20:07 PM
Can we stick to the general topic at hand? The rest of the personal bickering back and forth needs to go.
Fair enough, but if you don't challenge and call out BS when you see it or hear it, that is how it becomes "facts".
QuoteFair enough, but if you don't challenge and call out BS when you see it or hear it, that is how it becomes "facts".
Its all opinions, in my book, unless there's some factural stone cold data (like police logs) presented to back it up. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with challenging and debating as long as things don't fall into trading personal insults between each other.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:27:01 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 04:22:41 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2008, 04:20:07 PM
Can we stick to the general topic at hand? The rest of the personal bickering back and forth needs to go.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2668.0
Print
Fair enough, but if you don't challenge and call out BS when you see it or hear it, that is how it becomes "facts".
Easy, I tend to think that the helicopter is going to have footage.
it is my opinion that if there were footage (like from said heli), it would've been released by now.
Wouldn't someone have to request it first? They don't just strap it to a pigeon and 'release' it.
QuoteReligion is being pushed by the media? Quite the opposite. The media is actively hostile to mainstream religion (although it does celebrate religions which are not the mainstream in the US).
No, religion is based on numerous people's points of view. Much like this story.
Weren't there police logs posted? Or did I just imagine that?
Can we all just agree that there was no "riot"?
I mean - come on. Don't you think every news agency in the city would want to be all over this story? This would mean HUGE ratings. I think that a general concensus can be that...
1) there were some angry kids cause they couldn't get in a concert.
2) maybe even in completely unrelated areas/events, a couple of shots may have been fired somewhere - but these may have been fireworks as well.
3) there was no "RIOT".
QuoteCan we stick to the general topic at hand?
Right...because you going off the deep end on this thread numerous times
is staying on topic.
Why are we arguing on whether there was a "riot" or not?
Definition of Riot:
QuoteA wild or turbulent disturbance created by a large number of people.
http://www.answers.com/topic/riot
Was there a wild disturbance created on the streets of Five Points that night? Doesn't the police log back up this definition?
As i am very good freinds with several shop owners along the strip, and was actually in 5 Points up to the time the shit broke out, and had several friends there, let me say this:
1) There was no property damage to the shops. No one filed insurance claims.
2) While not a "riot" riot, I think, for most of us, when we see tear gas flying, police running down the block with machine guns in their hands, and hear gun shots, we think riot.
This is truly an atypical situation, which is what I think is driving this discussion, in that there were all the hallmarks and causes of violence and property damage, but no actual property damage or anyone hurt by the violence. I, for one, would chalk this lack of news-worthy damage up to the fine job done by JSO.
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 04:59:52 PM
As i am very good freinds with several shop owners along the strip, and was actually in 5 Points up to the time the shit broke out, and had several friends there, let me say this:
1) There was no property damage to the shops. No one filed insurance claims.
2) While not a "riot" riot, I think, for most of us, when we see tear gas flying, police running down the block with machine guns in their hands, and hear gun shots, we think riot.
This is truly an atypical situation, which is what I think is driving this discussion, in that there were all the hallmarks and causes of violence and property damage, but no actual property damage or anyone hurt by the violence. I, for one, would chalk this lack of news-worthy damage up to the fine job done by JSO.
Thank you Eazy E. Could not have been said better.
Has the supposed police log ever been authenticated? For all I know, it was totally manufactured.
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 08, 2008, 05:26:11 PM
Has the supposed police log ever been authenticated? For all I know, it was totally manufactured.
There might be minor typos or spelling corrections, since I did type in the thing in a hurry, but feel free to go to the PMB or any police substation and request incident report #644442 and its comments (it'll cost around 30 cents for the report and 3 dollars for the comments) and let me know what differences you find :)
-fpj
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:38:51 PM
Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 04:34:50 PM
Wouldn't someone have to request it first? They don't just strap it to a pigeon and 'release' it.
of course. All the adults reading this thread are aware of this.
fpj seems to have the most familiarity with public records requests. I wonder if they can weigh in.
It is easy but time consuming to do, I have been told, because of how things are filed at JSO.
In this instance, it took me almost three hours to track down #644442 because it was filed as happening at 800 Park Street, which is NOT the address of the Five Points Theatre building, but apparently the rough block address where the first bullets were heard shot, which translates into the initiation (I think that's what they called it) address of the call.
Furthermore, I found this out only after the JSO dispatcher I ended up working with truly took to the task and actually put out a call to EVERY police officer on duty asking if any officer knew what I was asking about and the officer who was working off-duty that night and was on duty Monday morning responded with the incident#.
Before that, the officer at the PMB *and* the officer at the substation (yes, I went to both places) BOTH told me that nothing happened anywhere near the address (1024 Park Street) that night.
I was obviously incredulous, but thankfully the officer that answered the dispatch phone number was able to help and then with #644442 scribbled on the top of The Victims Advocate or whatever the free paper was sitting in the substation, I was able to get the information that is now I guess being disputed on here lol.
Now, *if* people were arrested that night, anyone can go to the PMB and ask for (and pay 15 cents per page of) any arrest report. All you have to do is ask if anyone was arrested in Five Points on July 4th and request the commentary.
I heard people were arrested, but I don't have any first hand eye witness information, nor, alas, do I have the personal time to run downtown or to the substation for another morning of public records searching to find that information out...until next week. Please, someone beat me to it :)
-fpj
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 04:59:52 PM
I, for one, would chalk this lack of news-worthy damage up to the fine job done by JSO.
I would like to chime in and say I am glad that the JSO officers that were in Five Points that night had the professional discipline to not fire on anyone. They did a fine job in my opinion, which, I hope, is the first time any opinions of mine have entered this discussion, and I am choosing my words carefully here.
-fpj
Nice work fpj. I don't think anyone was questioning the validity of your material, per say. I think it was more a question of citizen journalism in general. I know I personally have accepted information off of here and other forums as fact a few times, only to later learn that it was in fact an interpretation, over-blown, or just off base.
People, particularly people in scary situations, have the tendancy to over blow what they see. That appears to not have been the case here, and I think JSO did exactly as they should have. Its really just too bad that so many of these "teens" at the teen bash have no respect for authority, or others safety.
Just as an FYI, "Citizen Journalist" is a commonly used term, not something I made up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_journalist
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 11:01:02 PM
Quote from: fpj on July 08, 2008, 08:31:36 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 04:59:52 PM
I, for one, would chalk this lack of news-worthy damage up to the fine job done by JSO.
I would like to chime in and say I am glad that the JSO officers that were in Five Points that night had the professional discipline to not fire on anyone. They did a fine job in my opinion, which, I hope, is the first time any opinions of mine have entered this discussion, and I am choosing my words carefully here.
-fpj
thanks fpj, and its ridiculous that you feel you have to choose your words carefully. In reality you dont.
Sadly there have been a couple of personal agendas on parade by a couple of people who were no where near this event and actually uninterested in the event itself.
And DTP, your aware that quite often these 'citizen journalism' sites (as you have decided to start calling them) are quite ahead of the 'corporate media' blow jobs we often get.
As it turns out, this thread is a GREAT example of 'journalism'.
and FPJ, thanks for your contribution to this awesome thread.
I am not saying it's ridiculous, I am saying that I am carefully trying not to inject my opinions/biases--which are many, lol--into an accounting of this event. Otherwise, this becomes an editorial essay, not journalism. Thank you, though, for your comments, for, after all...
"All we want are the facts, ma'am," or, in this case, sir :)
--fpj channeling Sgt. Joe Friday
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 11:01:02 PM
thanks fpj, and its ridiculous that you feel you have to choose your words carefully. In reality you dont.
Sadly there have been a couple of personal agendas on parade by a couple of people who were no where near this event and actually uninterested in the event itself.
Stephen: I hope you are not referring to me as I have significant interest in the events in Riverside and have a significant financial interest as well.
Quote
And DTP, you aware that quite often these 'citizen journalism' sites (as you have decided to start calling them) are quite ahead of the 'corporate media' blow jobs we often get.
As it turns out, this thread is a GREAT example of 'journalism'.
and FPJ, thanks for your contribution to this awesome thread.
This is better than corporate journalism if by "better" you mean even more overblown and focused on obsessively covering negative minor events.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 08, 2008, 04:04:51 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 03:33:37 PM
Whatever agenda is being pursued by all of this 'thought police' chatter, Im sure its as much of a yawn as the idea that 'nothing happened"
But is it really OK for the police to tell an entire crowd of people, no matter what their color to simply leave an entire area?
And I mean to ask this question divorced of the backdrop of the Five Points riot.
Its especially ironic because the kids in Five Points have had the same problem themselves.
Yes. Loitering is still a crime. You cannot just hang out just because you want to. You have to have some legitimate purpose.
and that is bullshit, as well as a lie.
While it is true that you cannot 'loiter' in areas with posted signs, you have a right to be in any publicly open place, doing 'nothing'.
Actually, you are wrong again. Loitering is still a crime. You cannot just hang out as these kids were. Here is the relevant Florida Statute:
Quote856.021 Loitering or prowling; penalty.--
(1) It is unlawful for any person to loiter or prowl in a place, at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals, under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.
(2) Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm or immediate concern is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstance makes it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself or herself and explain his or her presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this section if the law enforcement officer did not comply with this procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person is true and, if believed by the officer at the time, would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.
(3) Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
http://www.megalaw.com/fl/flstatutes.php?Mode=Display_Statute&codelink=@Search_String=@URL=Ch0856/SEC021.HTM@Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0856-%3ESection%20021#0856.021
I never said I was omniscient or that everyone was lying. I said you were exaggerating a relatively minor incident for dramatic effect. You do thrive on drama. Why dont you just drop it.
It's looking like the jax.com message board on here, nice!
Quote from: Eazy E on July 07, 2008, 01:53:08 PM
This is to be chalked up to Jacksonville's future: people too stupid and too violent to realize they are too stupid and too violent.
Sadness. :( Does anyone remember those movies Gremlins? A lot of these kids remind me of those creatures in those movies. Wild, Out of Control, & Green errrrrr Black.
Eazy I understand your frustration man. The line that I quoted from you made a lot of sense. Man I'm not sure your race nor does it matter, I'm a black guy man and if you could ever meet some of the black women with like 4 children from "5" different dudes and hear the "I don't care I'm Grown" "No one can judge me" speech they have prepared you would scratch your head till it bleeds Eazy. Someone was quick to say NO HIP HOP!! NO HIP HOP!! I guess in their eyes all hip hop equals knucklehead black people. Maybe I'm just getting old, I have no clue how this knucklehead rap got "SO COOL". I just don't know people...I'm always sad to hear this sort of nonsense. Those cats in the 60s fought so hard man, only for their great grandkids to ruin it. It's embarrassing.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 04:00:10 PM
I
In fact its the opposite that is true. The more people there are on a street, the safer it usually is.
Hmmm that is an interesting point Stephan, BUT the crowds must be diverse!! Diversity is a must to insure safety. If there were more white people at this Poison boys event, that would have instantly made it safer. Believe it or not the more diverse the crowd the safer. You could put any of those knuckleheads in a setting like the Ocean Club or Marks and they would behave. Ive seen the same person act different at different events based on the crowd.
Take out half of the black KIDS that were there and replace them with whites and asian KIDS and you have NO RIOT to cover up.
Truth - the crowd was the reason for all the chaos. Where will you see more fights? 93.3's Come Together Day or the Warped Tour? Even the turtles know the answer to that one.
Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 05:50:00 PM
By the way, here is a flyer for the event.
(http://a671.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/105/l_d4753dc7cf25eec022e440705e215d96.jpg)
OOOOOH NO!! This was Ivory Orr's event?? Damn, Point Blank Ent is nothing like Cool Runnings Crew. The guys running and promoting this event are NOT knuckleheads 4 of them are UNF graduates......this is weird. Thanks for posting this flier, I'm at a lose for words...The Point Blank guys are normally more responsible than this. weird.
Very well said stephen.
Well Put Stephen. I wish Tom And Gunnell would write a book about 5 points history and changes.
I wish Jim from Fuel/Raglands would do a "Wilt Chamberlain" sort of tell all, it would certainly be a companion book to Tom and Gunnells' historical account.
Silly putty.....
Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2008, 01:27:46 AM
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 09, 2008, 12:42:18 AM
I never said I was omniscient or that everyone was lying. I said you were exaggerating a relatively minor incident for dramatic effect. You do thrive on drama. Why dont you just drop it.
fool, read the damned statute before you post next time.
And now the prince of Five Points is reduced to name calling.
BTW, I did read it. I would love to hear your "expert" legal opinion as to how I am wrong. :D
Quote
and try to limit your lying to what you personally say. I did not at any time give a first person account. If you don't like the way I write, stick to the political section. But under no circumstances are multiple gunshots, tear gas, taserings or the need for 28 additional police officers a "minor" incident.
I never said you gave a first hand account. I said you were exaggerating what had happened. Big difference.
And why do you keep accusing me of lying? Is this just projection on your part?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 09, 2008, 11:04:09 AM
"....And why do you keep accusing me of lying? Is this just projection on your part?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Yes, Ive only been on the forums for a little over a day now and I see people saying LIAR alot.
Reminds me of LuLu Fishpaw - "LIAR MOUTH"
Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2008, 11:15:58 AM
yawn. River, dude. have a drink. preferably something with alka seltzer that will help let the gas out.
Im only going to answer your loitering lie, because you are doing a disservice when you deliberately mislead the public over points of law.
It is amusing to be lectured on the law by someone who, at best, has worked as a legal secretary or office manager in a law office. :D
Here are the elements of loitering from the statute. To be guilty of loitering you must be:
1) you must be loitering or prowling in a place;
2) at a time or in a manner not usual for law abiding citizens;
3) under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons of property in the vicinity.
These kids were, from accounts, loudly complaining, insulting other people, walking into the street, acting obnoxious, etc, etc. This satisfies all of the elements of loitering. Hence, they were breaking the law.
I did not mean to give the impression that one could not legally window shop or bar hop in Five Points. This is not loitering. It was clear to the average observer that this was not what was happening here though.
Quote
You have listed on multiple other threads your distaste for the Five Points crowd, so it comes as no surprise your comments here.
You have no current connection to either Riverside or Five Points so spare us your "concern" for the neighborhood. The phrase "all hat and no cattle" comes to mind when I see you pontificating about Riverside.
I dont think this incident is going to damage 5 points. there are way too many people like myself and the JC staff who love Riverside and 5 Points and we wont let it go down. VIVA LA 5-POINTS
Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2008, 01:11:36 PM
Well apparently this story is being picked up by other media now.
I can confirm that.
Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2008, 01:11:36 PM
Well apparently this story is being picked up by other media now.
care to elaborate?
Resident News and Folio.
Exit Stage Left.
That is terribly perplexing.
Quote from: stephendare on July 10, 2008, 05:32:07 PM
strangely, it turns out that one of the reporters working on this story was ALSO unable to find any trace of the police report of the raid on TSI.
Quote from: jacksonvilleconfidential on July 10, 2008, 06:38:28 PM
That is terribly perplexing.
"Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence," or a really bizarre JSO filing system :)
Here is a video of the scene. It appears to be a little bit away from any action because the cops are running past everyone in the video to some other area...
http://www.youtube.com/v/UgAqzc-8ReI
Quote from: Lunican on July 11, 2008, 07:44:00 AM
Here is a video of the scene. It appears to be a little bit away from any action because the cops are running past everyone in the video to some other area...
http://www.youtube.com/v/UgAqzc-8ReI
Doesnt exactly look like a riot... but could someone plese provide a transcript?? ???
That was definitely not a riot. It was unintentionally humorous with perhaps a few people getting into a little trouble but no riot. Unless there were later, far more serious events, no riot took place. Thanks for confirming my earlier suspicions by posting this. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2008, 02:01:05 PM
That part wasnt. obviously. Really.
I suppose we could run the footage of W. victoriously reclaiming New Orleans for the United States and claim that there was a brief storm there using the same train of logic.
Perhaps you could post footage of the "riot" part of this street party and then I will agree with you. Until then, you will have to excuse me if I dont take your word for it. ;)
Does anyone know if the video was shot before, during, or after all the trouble? Part two of the video shows the theater pretty much empty.
So I take it you dont have any other proof that this "riot" occurred?
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 11, 2008, 03:08:19 PM
So I take it you dont have any other proof that this "riot" occurred?
The police log and the earlier accounts of those who were there tend to prove that some type of disturbance occured. It might have not been Watts, but there evidently was a skirmish.
Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2008, 01:48:09 PM
in fact, this particular footage makes the street look like a lively fun place (with the exception of the cops running to take control of the fight (referenced in the log) over in the Wendy's parking lot. (very early in the event)
Yes, the video does make it seem like that area is a lively place. I would love to see a district in urban Jacksonville that could attract crowds like that on a regular basis. That's reminiscent of the crowds Ybor used to attract every weekend during the late 1990s.
(http://www.allurelimo.org/images/Ybor%20City.jpg)
Quote
22:03:51 - calling adv large group poss 100-200 people going to start a sig 40, 16
22:03:52 - adv in all of 5 points
40 - civil disorder/riot/crowd
16 - traffic obstruction/hazard
Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2008, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2008, 01:48:09 PM
in fact, this particular footage makes the street look like a lively fun place (with the exception of the cops running to take control of the fight (referenced in the log) over in the Wendy's parking lot. (very early in the event)
Yes, the video does make it seem like that area is a lively place. I would love to see a district in urban Jacksonville that could attract crowds like that on a regular basis. That's reminiscent of the crowds Ybor used to attract every weekend during the late 1990s.
(http://www.allurelimo.org/images/Ybor%20City.jpg)
Imagine THAT scene on A. Philip Randolph... the no cars allowed waterfront Tallyrand Party district!!
That looks like a big riot in that Ybor City photo. ;)
Gwynedd has a pretty good head on her shoulders. I wonder how long it will be before she moves on.
Quote from: stephendare on July 14, 2008, 11:46:22 AM
I broke radio silence with Folio to speak with her regarding the incident, and I guess Ill see soon whether or not grown up relations have resumed betwixt myself and the southside publication.
But Gwynedd is a pretty intelligent writer who is interestingly networked into the mix of things, and in our discussion it sounded as though she might go further than simply the story of how A riot came to Riverside Gators front yard, only to be magically dispersed when our esteemed poster walked outside in a pair of ruby red slippers, clicking them together, softly saying: "there was no president like Reagan.. There was no president like Reagan.
Um, not to be disrespectful-- as many here, including myself sometimes have been towards you and others-- but why would Folio talk to you, Stephen? You weren't there and have no more knowledge on this than anyone who reads all 19 pages of this forum.
Also, I should have said this a while back when you posted it, but as to your quote* of "Businesses worry that the First Fridays promotion has been set back years". I have to say that I am saddened** by this statement as it seems either unbelievably inflated and exaggerated, or an outright fabrication.
I happen to know most of the store owners on the block quite well and: 1) no one has said anything at all like that to me, and they are probably more likely to tell me than you, because i am not a reporter (or whatever) to this site, and 2) "set it back years", huh? well, since it started in October of 2007, that's not too many years to set it back to. Honestly, I cannot explain how angry that quote made me when I thought about it, seeing as it is so exaggerated (and probably untrue) and just chock-full of unsubstantiated gossiping and sniping.
* Not direct quote, but close.
** as i sually enjoy what you have to say
Eazy: Even though he has no first hand knowledge of the event or connection to Riverside, Stephen just has a knack for injecting himself into things in a dramatic fashion. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on July 14, 2008, 03:41:28 PM
And river, really stop talking your vintage nonsense. you don't know anything about me or what friendships I have. You are the least qualified person to comment on what connections I have to the community.
Im not going to get into a pissing match with you,
If you dont want to "get into a pissing match" then dont bring me up as you did in this quote:
QuoteBut Gwynedd is a pretty intelligent writer who is interestingly networked into the mix of things, and in our discussion it sounded as though she might go further than simply the story of how A riot came to Riverside Gators front yard, only to be magically dispersed when our esteemed poster walked outside in a pair of ruby red slippers, clicking them together, softly saying: "there was no president like Reagan.. There was no president like Reagan.
Quotebut your service trying to limit the number of bohemians and minorities allowed to walk around in Riverside unmonitored, while noteworthy, doesnt really match family residing there since before the days of Ms. Cummer, a history of businesses in the area and connections which you probably don't fathom.
This would be libel actually as I have never done any such thing.
My family has also lived here a very long time. And, I still live in the area.
BTW, I am not the one trying to transform a small concert and 4th of July celebration by some black kids into a latter day race riot to advance my own agenda. That would be you.
Cut it out before you two end up getting another thread closed. Lets stick to the topic.
Quote from: Eazy E on July 14, 2008, 12:50:14 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 14, 2008, 11:46:22 AM
I broke radio silence with Folio to speak with her regarding the incident, and I guess Ill see soon whether or not grown up relations have resumed betwixt myself and the southside publication.
But Gwynedd is a pretty intelligent writer who is interestingly networked into the mix of things, and in our discussion it sounded as though she might go further than simply the story of how A riot came to Riverside Gators front yard, only to be magically dispersed when our esteemed poster walked outside in a pair of ruby red slippers, clicking them together, softly saying: "there was no president like Reagan.. There was no president like Reagan.
Um, not to be disrespectful-- as many here, including myself sometimes have been towards you and others-- but why would Folio talk to you, Stephen? You weren't there and have no more knowledge on this than anyone who reads all 19 pages of this forum.
Also, I should have said this a while back when you posted it, but as to your quote* of "Businesses worry that the First Fridays promotion has been set back years". I have to say that I am saddened** by this statement as it seems either unbelievably inflated and exaggerated, or an outright fabrication.
I happen to know most of the store owners on the block quite well and: 1) no one has said anything at all like that to me, and they are probably more likely to tell me than you, because i am not a reporter (or whatever) to this site, and 2) "set it back years", huh? well, since it started in October of 2007, that's not too many years to set it back to. Honestly, I cannot explain how angry that quote made me when I thought about it, seeing as it is so exaggerated (and probably untrue) and just chock-full of unsubstantiated gossiping and sniping.
* Not direct quote, but close.
** as i sually enjoy what you have to say
I drove by the scene that night, and sadly if I were a stranger to the area I would definately avoid coming back out of fear. The hateful "perception is reality," cliche held very true that night.....
It looked very scary driving by the scene with police everywhere and lots and lots of youth, so it doesn't matter what really happened.
Considering there was never a real report on the event in or on any of the local media that I know of, the hundreds of cars that passed from the fireworks downtown assumed something pretty bad had happened....
I love seeing myself in print! ;)
I know its nearly two weeks later, but the Folio Weekly mentioned this site so I figured I would jump in, albeit late. I was there, drinking at Starlite that night, and I have a few thoughts/observations:
1. I got there just after the end of the fireworks, and I was blown away at how much traffic (cars and people) were in 5 points. It was like being in an actual urban entertainment core again (I've lived in Philly, Toronto and Pittsburgh...and yes, Pittsburgh has places like that :)).
2. I settled in along the rail at Starlite with a New Castle to people watch. Lots of high school aged kids milling around, dressed in all sorts of loud and colorful outfits.
3. Some of the groups of kids began shouting at each other, and a few scuffles broke out, scuffles that looked much worse than they really were, because of the crowds of observers. There was shoving or slapping, but if punches were thrown, it wasn't a beat-down.
4. Some "pops" came from down the street towards the 5 points light/Wendy's area, and thats when 5 or so cops started running down the street in that direction. A kid at starlite declared that he knew it was gunfire and not firecrackers. People started paying more attention then.
5. The crowd began moving toward Post, and the cops decided shortly to close off the street from the 5 Points light to Post.
6. A few more scuffles were going on over the next few minutes, and yes, I did see a police officer spray pepper spray in the air around him to disperse some kids.
7. All the while, there were kids running around doing what kids do: Yelling, acting like asses, but I didn't get the sense that any of them were a threat to me...
8. Then the concert let out, and about 400-500 kids came spilling out into the street, obviously happy and delirious from the show. Lots of chatter, laughing, some yelling but nothing bad.
9. A few more scuffles happened over time, but nothing major in my opinion. One that I could see happened in front of Raglands, but it really wasn't much of anything.
10. The helicopters were buzzing around for a while, creating more tension in my opinion.
11. During most of the action, I was walking around in the street drinking my beer, observing...watching the way the cops were acting, listening to the crowd. I am an attorney, so I just wanted to see how things were going down. I let a couple of kids bum a smoke that asked (poor taste, I know), BS'ed with a few more, and generally hung out. I spent most of my time up on the corner of Post and Park, returning to Starlite just to refill my beer, which i did several times for over an hour.
My opinion as to what this "riot" was? Not a riot. No way. It wasn't much different than the Super Bowl celebration in Pittsburgh a few years ago, except replace drunk (mostly) white kids with sober (mostly) black kids, and in this case, ZERO cars got flipped, ZERO couches caught on fire and ZERO property damage was done (unlike Pittsburgh). The police presence probably had something to do with that, but I think we are selling the teenagers there waaay too short. They were wild, geeky pubescent teens, but they certainly didn't rise to the level of street-hardened "thugs" that some have called them. In talking to them, I discovered that most were just dorks.
There were cars lined up on both sides of the street, and nobody was jacking up cars. The business windows didn't get smashed. Hell, the most violent thing I saw all night was the bouncer at Starlite physically toss a girl and her friends out of the bar (she was asking for water). There were a lot of people on the streets, but I have seen plenty of kids on the street after a punk show at Fuel. Locking the doors at Raglands was way over the top, as was the guy at Starlite that demanded everbody get inside.
My opinion? It was a large group of black teenagers acting like teenagers. They were loud, mouthy, obviously horny, and out to raise a little hell as teenagers do. Most of the kids were disappointed that the night turned out to be a copfest, and many that I spoke to told me that the cops had to break stuff up because of the little fights that broke out.
The cops did what they had to do, but I think towards the end of the night they were acting a bit over the top. The kids had mostly moved on, but many were stuck waiting for rides...the police yelled and one even told the kids to walk home. I didn't agree with that. Another thing I didn't agree with was the assertion by one individual at Starlite that exclaimed "That's why the cops racially profile."
Thanks Linwood. Good assessment in my opinion.
Welcome aboard Linwood
Can we please let this non-story die already?
Thanks for the very informative post, Linwood, and thanks for confirming that there was no riot in Riverside. It was just some kids having a little fun on the 4th of July.
Hello Everyone,
I have been reading this post since it was posted. The reason this subject won't die is because there are people on this site that WANT to argue...They want to fight...Instead of adding eyewitness content to help clear up this issue once and for all they are just attacking people. It should have been an enlightening news story, instead it has ended up being a political and religious bashing.
I don't have to name one in particular....
The few who saw my meltdown a couple of nights ago will know who I am talking about.
I live in Avondale and I visit 5 Points all the time. I am 56 years young and I love 5 Points. But on the night of July 4th anyone who drove by 5 Points would have gotten the same impression my neighbor and I had: "Somethings not right." There were Policemen and Police cars everywhere, a police helicopter flying over head, and many of the cops were carrying rifles of some kind. We didn't stop long enough to find out what was going on. There were a ton of kids on the street and it seemed to be chaotic. Since no one reported the incident on any news media we assumed that someone was shot, robbed, raped or there was a riot.
Assumptions are bad, but when there is no report that's all you have. The 1st Friday event, the 4th of July and a rap, or hip/hop show was a combination for problems in my book. That is only my OPINION so please don't attack me.
In fact I would rather you all go and take a look at the photos I posted this morning....
Quote from: avonjax on July 17, 2008, 01:15:42 PM
Hello Everyone,
I have been reading this post since it was posted. The reason this subject won't die is because there are people on this site that WANT to argue...They want to fight...
thank you very much avonjax...i was thinking the same things! where can we view your photos??
Quote from: Linwood Thorpe on July 17, 2008, 10:14:09 AM
Locking the doors at Raglands was way over the top, as was the guy at Starlite that demanded everbody get inside.
Let's see? You have JSO officers walking around with rifles drawn telling people to go inside, groups of people in the streets fighting or running in random directions, pepper or other spray being used, a helicopter circling overhead, a general feeling of unrest, hearing tasers going off, fireworks and gunshots, and now at least one attorney walking around the streets in violation of Jacksonville's open container laws, so deciding to err on the side of caution is over the top?
Quote from: stephendare on July 18, 2008, 04:09:57 PM
By the way, this issue.
The idea of managing crowds and allowing busy streets at night.
we have GOT to have a more comprehensive approach to it.
Busy, crowded streets full of people drinking and having fun is a net positive for the city. not a negative.
And it would be nice if every now and then, different races, ages and social groups were able to mix without tension.
I wholeheartedly agree. Planned street parties are great and Five Points has had a number of them with great success.
Unplanned ruckuses, well, tend not to be :)
I finally got around to reading the Folio article. I found it amusing how they thought it interesting that despite the "riot" there were no reported injuries, arrests or property damage. This was a very poor riot indeed. :D
It isnt too difficult to pretend that nothing happened when nothing happened. ;)
In any case, it is probably time to let this thread die.
Quote from: RiversideGator on July 21, 2008, 04:56:01 PM
I finally got around to reading the Folio article. I found it amusing how they thought it interesting that despite the "riot" there were no reported injuries, arrests or property damage. This was a very poor riot indeed. :D
Something happened - and based on the fact that there is a police report, JSO seems to agree. It is interesting that it was reported two blocks over than where it did happen. Based on it being in the 800 block, I believe this would put the incident under the I-95 overpass.
No, thank you for your concern. ::)
Hi all, just wanted to remind everyone of First Fridays in 5 Points tomorrow. 6-9PM. Remember: "First Fridays- It's a Riot!"
Quote from: stephendare on July 31, 2008, 01:16:10 PM
Quote from: Eazy E on July 31, 2008, 08:43:38 AM
Hi all, just wanted to remind everyone of First Fridays in 5 Points tomorrow. 6-9PM. Remember: "First Fridays- It's a Riot!"
Now thats and AWESOME slogan.
Please tell me that its real.
I read it on Tony Allegretti's UrbanCore blog, so all credit goes to him.
I have been trying to get my 5 Points friends to use it. We'l see.
Well, amongst friends, it is the official new slogan we are using. As far the planners of FF, I don't think they'll be using that on fliers or ads anytime soon. Understandably so.
Well:
1) I cannot do anything but pass my ideas on to friends who are actually involved with the planning and have stores there.
2) I'm not much of a Black Kids fan.
Stephen, are you making this a zombie thread just to needle NN?
Quote from: Dog Walker on June 19, 2010, 12:07:05 PM
Stephen, are you making this a zombie thread just to needle NN?
I think it's related to another thread, where NN is showing some serious undisclosed bias.
This answers the question I asked NN over there, so actually I greatly appreciate the bump!
what in the world are we resurrecting this thread for. RG hasn't posted in months if not over a year. Stephen you need to get a hobby.
Recall also JSO public meeting later called to order.Or perhaps a regularly scheduled meeting,overflow crowd there on The Riot.
Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2008, 07:49:43 AM
Cooly
Yeah, thats the thing. It was a dance event not the dreaded evil 'hip hop' event.
I spoke yesterday with two of the three promoters, and they seemed like extremely nice guys, a little sheepish about the weekend events.
If you can seperate the storyline given by the people who were there from the three or four people who are trying to prevent this conversation from happening at all, it sounds more and more like poor planning and crowd management.
There is a concern amongst the Five Points Merchants, privately expressed, that the riot has set back the area, and especially the First Fridays event by years.
In my experience, I think that these fears might be a little premature.
First of all, its ridiculous that after 15 years and tens of millions of dollars of money spent creating a cool bohemian district out of a slum----one clove cigarette pack and betsy johnson dress at a time----that the indie/alternative shops and kids are still on the defensive in that neighborhood.
Its their goddam district. It sat rotting for decades until the kids moved in and made it worth having. There has been a whole lot of chatter over the past couple of years (with myself being one of the main chatterers) that gentrification is setting in, and anticipating a general movement to the cheaper rents of springfield. Added to the purchase of Club Five by Jack Shad and the raising of the rents, I think there has been raised anxiety.
But I don't think there is anything to fear for the alt/indie kids in Five Points because we are in and going into a deeper recession. For the next five years or so, there will be no psuedo posh boutiques just waiting around to take your spaces at a higher rent, and the landowners will once again be glad just to have your tenancies.
San Marco was the old punk rock hippy district. When we all left San Marco to do Five Points, San Marco went through some gentrification but it didnt stop being an artsy district.
The Davises did the same thing the Shads are doing. Bought centerpiece property, renovated posh, and presided over new sidewalks and landscaping. 15 years later, San marco is still home to the San Marco Theatre, Theatre Jacksonville, Jackrabbits, Uncommon Grounds, and the same mix of pot smoking universalism that defined the neighborhood in the first place.
Its the old neighborhood plus two more parking lots full of imported cars and more breast implants.
Its the model to expect with Five Points.
On a side note, its kind of irritating that while a lot of the old horrible people that opposed the five points kids in the first place have died of extreme old age, that no one seems to have gotten around to thanking the indie kids for making the area worth two shits with the wreckage that they had to start with---over the stated objections and harrassment of the neighborhood.
Its been a rough place over the years you know. Its hard to believe how hostile Riverside has been to the groups that have defined it over the years. When I think of what Christy Clark went through with that bank over on King Street, or what we went through with the old republican lesbian harridan, and the prehistoric arrests of Tom and Gunnell for selling post cards with naked women on them, or the Lockdown of the Lee Harvey Gallery for a painting of Adam and Eve, or even something as recent as refusing to allow Jim to open the second floor of Fuel for relatively bullshit reasons, its a wonder anything has every happened in the neighborhood at all
That it has, is TOTALLY due to the tenacious, hard headed, damn the torpedoes characters of the leaders of the alternative community. Luckily that tradition doesnt seem in any danger of subsiding.
Anyways, a piece of advice, especially to the organizers of the First Fridays Event. When it comes up, just refer to the whole debacle as the 4th of July riot and never connect the First Friday to it again.
Cooly is right about the number of kids on the street being key.
Ever since Fuel closed regular operation, the street life has diminished. Events like First Friday are EXACTLY what the neighborhood needs to revive it. Hopefully the addition of the Steam Bar will help out with that.
But don't get too discouraged over the event.
Five Points has a pretty solidly established image, and its one that everyone can be proud of.