Metro Jacksonville

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/24/business/exurbs.php

QuoteELIZABETH, Colorado: Suddenly, the economics of American suburban life are under assault as skyrocketing energy prices inflate the costs of reaching, heating and cooling homes on the outer edges of metropolitan areas.

Just off Singing Hills Road, in one of hundreds of two-story homes dotting a former cattle ranch beyond the southern fringes of Denver, Phil Boyle and his family openly wonder if they will have to move close to town to get some relief.

They still revel in the space and quiet that has drawn a steady exodus from U.S. cities toward places like this for more than half a century. Their living room ceiling soars two stories high. A swing-set sways in the breeze in their backyard. Their wrap-around porch looks out over the flat scrub of the high plains to the snow-capped peaks of the Rocky Mountains.

But life on the distant fringes of suburbia is beginning to feel untenable. Boyle and his wife must drive nearly an hour to their jobs in the high-tech corridor of southern Denver. With gasoline at more than $4 a gallon, Boyle recently paid $121 to fill his pickup truck with diesel. The price of propane to heat their spacious house has more than doubled in recent years.

Though Boyle finds city life unappealing, it's now up for reconsideration.

"Living closer in, in a smaller space, where you don't have that commute," he said. "It's definitely something we talk about. Before it was, 'We spend too much time driving.' Now, it's, 'We spend too much time and money driving."'

As the realization takes hold that rising energy prices are less a momentary blip than a restructuring with lasting consequences, the high cost of fuel is threatening to slow the decades-old migration away from cities, while exacerbating the housing downturn by diminishing the appeal of larger homes set far from urban jobs.

In Atlanta, Philadelphia, San Francisco and Minneapolis, homes beyond the urban core have been falling in value faster than those within, according to analysis by Moody's Economy.com.

In Denver, housing prices in the urban core rose steadily from 2003 until late last year compared with previous years, before dipping nearly 5 percent in the past three months of last year, according to Economy.com. But house prices in the suburbs began falling earlier, in the middle of 2006, and then accelerated, dropping by 7 percent the past three months of the year.

Many factors have propelled the unraveling of U.S. real estate, from the mortgage crisis to a staggering excess of home construction, making it hard to pinpoint the impact of any single force. But economists and real estate agents are growing convinced that the rising cost of energy is a primary factor pushing home prices down in the suburbs - particularly in the outer rings.

More than three-fourths of prospective homebuyers are more inclined to live in an urban area because of fuel prices, according to a recent survey of 903 real estate agents with Coldwell Banker, a national brokerage.

Some proclaim the unfolding demise of suburbia.

"Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and '70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay," said Christopher Leinberger, an urban land use expert, in a recent essay in the Atlantic Monthly.

Most experts do not share such apocalyptic visions, seeing instead a gradual reordering.

"It's like an ebbing of this suburban tide," said Joe Cortright, an economist at the consulting group Impresa in Portland, Oregon. "There's going to be this kind of reversal of desirability. Typically, Americans have felt the periphery was most desirable, and now there's going to be a reversion to the center."

In a recent study, Cortright found that house prices in the urban centers of Chicago, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Portland and Tampa have fared significantly better than those in the suburbs. So-called exurbs - communities sprouting on the distant edges of metropolitan areas - have suffered worst of all, Cortright found.

Basic household arithmetic appears to be furthering the trend: In 2003, the average suburban household spent $1,422 a year on gasoline, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. By April of this year - when gas prices were about $3.60 a gallon - the same household was buying gas at a rate of $3,196 a year, more than doubling consumption in dollar terms in less than five years.

In March, Americans drove 11 billion fewer miles on public roads than in the same month the previous year, a 4.3 percent decrease. It was the sharpest one-month drop since the Federal Highway Administration began keeping records in 1942.

Long before the recent spike in the price of energy, environmentalists decried suburban sprawl as a waste of land, energy, and tax dollars: Governments from Virginia to California have in recent decades lavished resources on building roads and schools for new subdivisions in the outer rings of development while skimping on maintaining facilities closer in. Many governments now focus on reviving their downtowns.

In Denver - a classic American city with snarling freeway traffic across a vast acreage of strip malls, ranch houses and office parks - the city has seen an urban renaissance over the past decade.

A planned $6.1 billion commuter rail system has been going in over the past four years, drawing people downtown without cars, while crystallizing swift sales of densely clustered condos near stations.

Coors Field, the intimate, brick-fronted baseball stadium for the Colorado Rockies, has transformed the surrounding area from a desolate area into trendy Lower Downtown, a neighborhood of restaurants and microbreweries in restored warehouses. Along the Platte River, new condos set on a park strip offer an arresting tableau of glass, steel, and futuristic geometry, attracting throngs of buyers at rising prices.

"This is a city where it's fun to be in the center," said Tim Burleigh, 56, who sold his house in the suburbs and now walks to Rockies games from his downtown condo.

To Denver's Mayor John Hickenlooper, $4 gasoline offers a useful push forward on such plans.

"It can be an accelerator," he said during an interview inside the imposing, column-fronted City Hall. "It's not going to be the dagger in the heart of suburban sprawl, but there's a certain inclination, a certain momentum back toward downtown."

Elizabeth is the archetype of a once-rural community sucked into the orbit of the expanding metropolis, its ranchlands given over to porches, picket fences and two-car garages.

Megan Werner, 39, a mother of three, moved here five years ago from a suburb closer to Denver, where the houses were packed together. She and her husband bought a home set on a 1.5 acre, or 0.61 hectare, lot in the Deer Creek Farm subdivision. The space justified her husband's 40-minute commute.

"We wanted more than a postage stamp," she said, as her 5-year-old daughter walked barefoot across the driveway.

It used to cost her about $30 to fill her Honda minivan with gas. Now, it's more like $50, and she coordinates her trips - shopping in town, combined with dance lessons for her kids. But she has no thoughts of leaving.

"I can open up my door, and my kids can play," Werner said.

For others, though, new math is altering the choice of where to live. Houses are sitting on the market longer than years past. "The pool of buyers is diminishing," said Jace Glick, a realtor with Re/Max Alliance in Parker, next to Elizabeth.

Juanita Johnson and her husband, both retired Denver school teachers, moved here last August, after three decades in the city and a few years in the mountains. They bought a four-bedroom house for $415,000.

Last winter, they spent $3,000 just on propane to heat the place, she said. Suddenly, this seems like a place to flee.

"We'd sell if we could, but we'd lose our shirt," Johnson said. On a recent walk, she counted 15 "For Sale" signs. A similar home nearby is listed below $400,000.

"I was so glad to get out of the city, the pollution the traffic, the crime," she said. Now, the suburbs seem mean. "I wouldn't do this again."

QuoteA planned $6.1 billion commuter rail system has been going in over the past four years, drawing people downtown without cars, while crystallizing swift sales of densely clustered condos near stations.

So Denver is investing $6.1 billion in rail while our answer revolves around a $2 billion outer beltway.  I wonder which community is making the right move that will pay off better in the long run?

Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2008, 08:52:40 AM

QuoteA planned $6.1 billion commuter rail system has been going in over the past four years, drawing people downtown without cars, while crystallizing swift sales of densely clustered condos near stations.

So Denver is investing $6.1 billion in rail while our answer revolves around a $2 billion outer beltway.  I wonder which community is making the right move that will pay off better in the long run?

Keep in mind that Denver has a far larger network of existing highways than Jacksonville. This step to commuter rail is the next logical step, since there isn't any room or available land for more highways.

Denver has a density within its city limits of 3,698/square mile and its metro area isn't far from that number. What is Jacksonville's? 1,061.6/square mile. The metro area of Denver is also 1.1 million more than Jax.

You can't expect Jax to immediately implement the same or similar plans of action when its density and metro area population are still significantly lower than Denver.

I do agree that it is necessary to plan for commuter rail, but Jax does need to finish its road infrastructure needs.

And we are back to the density argument :-)

 :D Sorry. I'm not saying that Jax shouldn't have commuter rail...just saying the demand for it is significantly less than places like Denver. So it will be more difficult to get it done.

Jacksonville's difficulty revolves mainly around leadership.  If city leaders valued the subject a little more, there would have been a significant amount of investment already.

Metro Denver is roughly double the size of Metro Jacksonville.  I'd do back flips if Jacksonville found a way to invest $3 billion (half of what Denver is investing) in rail.  Heck, I wouldn't complain if we found a way to invest a $1 billion in rail.

Anyway, to eliminate all excuses for Jax's lack of investment in rail, we can replace Denver's name with a host of other cities that are either around the same size, smaller or less dense then Jacksonville.  Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, Albuquerque, Austin, Little Rock and Nashville are a few places that immediately come to mind.

Good point, Lake. It is a matter of having the political will and vision amongst Jax leaders. I still think Jax should finish its highway infrastructure (Denver's is incredible). One reason why Charlotte really jumped on the commuter rail wagon is that highway infrastructure there is terribly inadequate, and the changes they made were paltry.

I just wish there was a way to have both great highways and commuter rail, much like Denver.

problem #1
(http://sawgrasspress.com/images/mayor.gif)

problem #2
(http://www.goodwilljax.org/cityresol1.jpg)


lack of true leadership in both areas.  in the case of #1, he is just in way over his head.  i'm reminded of an investment banker jumping into a bull-riding championship.

in the case of #2, "City Councilperson" has just turned into a status symbol for elite local yokels, instead of a true service-minded position. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

Quote from: gatorback on June 25, 2008, 04:20:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

how do you know?  do you go to church there?  just asking.

Yes, I've been to FBC in a past life.  Would I go back to FBC?  Maybe.

Here are my thoughts on this coming from a place where the commute takes 40 minutes. The economy and gas situation hasn’t hurt long enough for people out here to start thinking about moving back to the core. People out here are now just trimming the fat from the budget. What it has caused people to do is limit trips into the city. i.e., get everything you think you need when you are in town for dinner Friday night...

This is where people come to raise family on the 10 acres of land, for their kids to be able to ride their bikes up and down the road and not worry so much about them, this is the place where you can bring your son into the hardware store, and show him YOUR Little League picture hanging on the wall.
This is the place where you pass someone on the road and you wave, not just to be nice, because you know them...

While I think that the higher gas prices might move some back to the city, it will take a long time before that happens out here.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2008, 08:52:40 AM

QuoteA planned $6.1 billion commuter rail system has been going in over the past four years, drawing people downtown without cars, while crystallizing swift sales of densely clustered condos near stations.

So Denver is investing $6.1 billion in rail while our answer revolves around a $2 billion outer beltway.  I wonder which community is making the right move that will pay off better in the long run?

I rode that railway last summer from an outer-outer-outer suburb of denver to downtown.  Took about 40 minutes, cost about $2 each way (i think), was thoroughly enjoyable, i was able to get drunk, and all-in-all it was great.

Which was great?  The ride on the train or the drunkenness?   ;)

Austin has a "drunk" bus.  It's called the Night Owl.  Leaves dt at 12AM,1AM, & 2AM. It's never fun when some coed is ralphing all over the place.  But when that doesn't happen, then yes, the drunk bus is fun.

BTW, this article was front page of the New York Times on Wed, June 25 (reach is good!)

Below is my favorite part:

Quote"More than three-fourths of prospective homebuyers are more inclined to live in an urban area because of fuel prices, according to a recent survey of 903 real estate agents with Coldwell Banker, a national brokerage.

Some proclaim the unfolding demise of suburbia.

"Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and '70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay," said Christopher Leinberger, an urban land use expert, in a recent essay in the Atlantic Monthly.

Most experts do not share such apocalyptic visions, seeing instead a gradual reordering.

"It's like an ebbing of this suburban tide," said Joe Cortright, an economist at the consulting group Impresa in Portland, Oregon. "There's going to be this kind of reversal of desirability. Typically, Americans have felt the periphery was most desirable, and now there's going to be a reversion to the center."

And, adamh0903, you are mistaken. I'd like to ask you, and all of the other sheltered-by-my-lack-of-exposure suburbanites in Jacksonville, to stop making assumptions that you know what living in a city neighborhood is like.

The things you describe as idyllic  in your post are also true of Springfield and Riverside living. Except the 10 acres part -- but add to that no commuting to work, walkability to daily needs and services, and re-use of existing infrastructure instead of building more roads, more schools, and more retail to support it all, and  I guess that  makes downtown neighborhoods environmentally conscious in comparison. My family and I need 10 acres like we need a 6 bedroom, 6 bath house with a 4-car garage (we don't).

Many of my  neighbors DID NOT know their neighbors when they previously resided in the suburbs (I know of  two that lived a few houses apart off San Jose for years, and never knew each other until they moved to Springfield). Most city dwellers also don't like homogenous environments -- most suburban neighborhoods, and their Agrestic-like sameness ("Weeds" reference), bore us city types to tears. Here are some shocking things I've heard from different suburbanites in Jax recently  (names changed):

- "I can't believe 'Christie and Alex' are only going to have one child! Having one kid is just wrong because only children are so lonely. They should have more so ALL of our kids can play together."

- "My daughter has a black girl in her class who had a birthday party this weekend. My daughter really likes "Mia" so I took her. We were the only white people there, but we talked to everyone else  and made an effort to enjoy  the party like everyone else."

-  And one from adamh's post: "for their kids to be able to ride their bikes up and down the road and not worry so much about them." (this shows suburbanites have an alarmingly naive sense of safety -- it's even more naive to think the pedophiles out there don't know it!)

Adamh, I have tried not present this as an attack, because surburbanites have just as much right to choose their lifestyle as I do. But suburbanites need to stop assuming their choice is "better". It's just different. I'm merely trying to be eye-opening, as your uninformed stance is a roadblock to progress.

Would love to chat more about it. Please join me and my neighbors at our community throwback baseball game at Klutho Park on July 3 at 4 p.m. The Mayberry-esque activities will continue into the eve for fireworks, and at the park the following day, as well. Bring a chair and someone to play catch with. Hope to see you there.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2008, 01:34:49 PM
Jacksonville's difficulty revolves mainly around leadership.  If city leaders valued the subject a little more, there would have been a significant amount of investment already.

Metro Denver is roughly double the size of Metro Jacksonville.  I'd do back flips if Jacksonville found a way to invest $3 billion (half of what Denver is investing) in rail.  Heck, I wouldn't complain if we found a way to invest a $1 billion in rail.

Anyway, to eliminate all excuses for Jax's lack of investment in rail, we can replace Denver's name with a host of other cities that are either around the same size, smaller or less dense then Jacksonville.  Charlotte, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, Albuquerque, Austin, Little Rock and Nashville are a few places that immediately come to mind.

I would support a light rail system coupled with the bus and skyway but where do you propose Jax gets 3 billion?

Jax won't be getting $3 billion from anyone overnight.  However, neither did Denver or any of the other cities that started off with "starter" lines first.  Imo, Jax's best bet is to complete a mass transit master plan, then select an affordable, attractive corridor to move forward on first to serve as a "no-frills" starter line.  By "starter" , I mean a single rail-based transit line that will most likely be less than 15 miles long in length, connecting to major destination endpoints together.

I believe this can be done in the price range of $100 million.  As long as JTA does not blow the $100 million set aside in BJP funds on BRT ROW without completing the rail studies first, we may already have enough money to get something worthwhile started.  Toss in the idea of public/private partnerships/financing and that $100 million may stretch a little further.  When it comes to federal funding, use the initial starter line's value as the city's funding match to get federal dollars in the future.  Those dollars can be used to expand the initial starter line.  With this method we can move forward in the short term, instead of waiting decades for federal approval before doing anything.

Quote from: zoo on June 27, 2008, 08:57:17 AM
BTW, this article was front page of the New York Times on Wed, June 25 (reach is good!)

Below is my favorite part:

Quote"More than three-fourths of prospective homebuyers are more inclined to live in an urban area because of fuel prices, according to a recent survey of 903 real estate agents with Coldwell Banker, a national brokerage.

Some proclaim the unfolding demise of suburbia.

"Many low-density suburbs and McMansion subdivisions, including some that are lovely and affluent today, may become what inner cities became in the 1960s and '70s - slums characterized by poverty, crime and decay," said Christopher Leinberger, an urban land use expert, in a recent essay in the Atlantic Monthly.

Most experts do not share such apocalyptic visions, seeing instead a gradual reordering.

"It's like an ebbing of this suburban tide," said Joe Cortright, an economist at the consulting group Impresa in Portland, Oregon. "There's going to be this kind of reversal of desirability. Typically, Americans have felt the periphery was most desirable, and now there's going to be a reversion to the center."

And, adamh0903, you are mistaken. I'd like to ask you, and all of the other sheltered-by-my-lack-of-exposure suburbanites in Jacksonville, to stop making assumptions that you know what living in a city neighborhood is like.

The things you describe as idyllic  in your post are also true of Springfield and Riverside living. Except the 10 acres part -- but add to that no commuting to work, walkability to daily needs and services, and re-use of existing infrastructure instead of building more roads, more schools, and more retail to support it all, and  I guess that  makes downtown neighborhoods environmentally conscious in comparison. My family and I need 10 acres like we need a 6 bedroom, 6 bath house with a 4-car garage (we don't).

Many of my  neighbors DID NOT know their neighbors when they previously resided in the suburbs (I know of  two that lived a few houses apart off San Jose for years, and never knew each other until they moved to Springfield). Most city dwellers also don't like homogenous environments -- most suburban neighborhoods, and their Agrestic-like sameness ("Weeds" reference), bore us city types to tears. Here are some shocking things I've heard from different suburbanites in Jax recently  (names changed):

- "I can't believe 'Christie and Alex' are only going to have one child! Having one kid is just wrong because only children are so lonely. They should have more so ALL of our kids can play together."

- "My daughter has a black girl in her class who had a birthday party this weekend. My daughter really likes "Mia" so I took her. We were the only white people there, but we talked to everyone else  and made an effort to enjoy  the party like everyone else."

-  And one from adamh's post: "for their kids to be able to ride their bikes up and down the road and not worry so much about them." (this shows suburbanites have an alarmingly naive sense of safety -- it's even more naive to think the pedophiles out there don't know it!)

Adamh, I have tried not present this as an attack, because surburbanites have just as much right to choose their lifestyle as I do. But suburbanites need to stop assuming their choice is "better". It's just different. I'm merely trying to be eye-opening, as your uninformed stance is a roadblock to progress.

Would love to chat more about it. Please join me and my neighbors at our community throwback baseball game at Klutho Park on July 3 at 4 p.m. The Mayberry-esque activities will continue into the eve for fireworks, and at the park the following day, as well. Bring a chair and someone to play catch with. Hope to see you there.

The things you describe as idyllic  in your post are also true of Springfield and Riverside living.
      Sure, signed random shootings in Springfield

My family and I need 10 acres like we need a 6 bedroom, 6 bath house with a 4-car garage (we don't).

You may not, but apparently a lot of people do

Hey I am not knocking city living, my wife and I looked at houses in Springfield, and Berkman Plaza and The Carling. And we both wanted to move there, but then we found out we were having a baby, and something changed, I guess because I have lived out here all my life, but I want my child to grow up out here, not in the city.

I do not see myself as a “roadblock to progress” but rather a voice from the other side, hey I love Jacksonville, that’s why I’m here, and that’s why I found this site.

And, adamh0903, you are mistaken. I'd like to ask you, and all of the other sheltered-by-my-lack-of-exposure suburbanites in Jacksonville, to stop making assumptions that you know what living in a city neighborhood are like

Sometimes perception is reality..

This is perception of city living.. Turn on the news tonight…. it will start like this

   â€œWe will get to the tonight’s top story in a moment, but first breaking news out of the northwest side of Jacksonville, where 2 people where found shot”

Every single night….

Quote from: thelakelander on June 27, 2008, 09:56:52 AM
Jax won't be getting $3 billion from anyone overnight.  However, neither did Denver or any of the other cities that started off with "starter" lines first.  Imo, Jax's best bet is to complete a mass transit master plan, then select an affordable, attractive corridor to move forward on first to serve as a "no-frills" starter line.  By "starter" , I mean a single rail-based transit line that will most likely be less than 15 miles long in length, connecting to major destination endpoints together.

I believe this can be done in the price range of $100 million.  As long as JTA does not blow the $100 million set aside in BJP funds on BRT ROW without completing the rail studies first, we may already have enough money to get something worthwhile started.  Toss in the idea of public/private partnerships/financing and that $100 million may stretch a little further.  When it comes to federal funding, use the initial starter line's value as the city's funding match to get federal dollars in the future.  Those dollars can be used to expand the initial starter line.  With this method we can move forward in the short term, instead of waiting decades for federal approval before doing anything.

I was unaware of the 100 mil set aside.  I surely do not know how much it costs to physically lay the rails and purchase a train.  Seems to me the selected corridor would have to be already owned by the city or state.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 27, 2008, 10:30:51 AMI was unaware of the 100 mil set aside.  I surely do not know how much it costs to physically lay the rails and purchase a train.  Seems to me the selected corridor would have to be already owned by the city or state.

It all depends.  Nashville was able to construct a 32 mile long system for $40 million, using a lightly used existing freight rail line and used trains they purchased for $1 a piece from Chicago.  Austin's Capital Metrorail cost them $123 million for a 31 mile line and Ottawa started a 5 mile long commuter rail demostration line for $21 million a few years ago.  All of these are examples of "no-frills" lines.  They all are single track lines with occassional passing sidings and simple plain jane stations.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2287-mcs-map.jpg)
Nashville's master plan calls for a series of commuter rail lines tying that city's downtown with its suburbs.  With this plan in mind, the city spent $40 million moving forward with the 32 mile long line between Downtown Nashville and Lebanon.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2292-mcs-irs-4u-1.jpg)
Nashville's line uses simple stations.  Instead of having restroom facilities, air conditioned space, elevators to carry passengers over track (like in Miami), the platforms are at-grade with small shelters to keep costs down.


(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2288-mcs-irs-4u.jpg)
Nashville's trains were purchased from a commuter rail system in Chicago.  They cost $1 a piece.

With the CSX A Line possibly having extra capacity due to the Orlando commuter rail deal, CSX's JaxPort Springfield bypass and the city's S-Line, we have just as many, if not more, major chips to play with as many of these other communities.  If rail based transit became a priority, there's no reason we could not get a no-frills starter line up and running, without having to raise taxes or kiss up to the FTA.

I believe it was a different thread but oklawaha had mentioned the problems Amtrack has with ontime issues when having to share lines with freight lines.  I assume the lines you are proposing are unused or little used lines that could be obtained cheaply...

Correct.

Quote from: gatorback on June 25, 2008, 04:20:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

What is your point and what does this have to do with transportation?

FBC runs this town.  They have since the '20s.  My question is what will the new board do to support transportation in jacksonville if they are the same old same old that got us into this mess in the first place.

Quote from: AndyB on June 27, 2008, 11:42:11 AM

Quote from: gatorback on June 25, 2008, 04:20:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

What is your point and what does this have to do with transportation?

My point is that if you believe the drivel coming out of this place, you'll never be forward thinking enough to solve our transportation problems-- you'll be too concerned with Folio weekly articles on what people choose to do in their own homes on their own time (you know, the important stuff).

The important stuff for who?  The FBC and their members, or the the community as a whole?

Quote from: Eazy E on June 27, 2008, 12:26:45 PM

Quote from: AndyB on June 27, 2008, 11:42:11 AM

Quote from: gatorback on June 25, 2008, 04:20:30 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those people always in the 1st. row of pews at FBC?

What is your point and what does this have to do with transportation?

My point is that if you believe the drivel coming out of this place, you'll never be forward thinking enough to solve our transportation problems-- you'll be too concerned with Folio weekly articles on what people choose to do in their own homes on their own time (you know, the important stuff).

QuoteSometimes perception is reality..

This is perception of city living.. Turn on the news tonight…. it will start like this

   â€œWe will get to the tonight’s top story in a moment, but first breaking news out of the northwest side of Jacksonville, where 2 people where found shot”

Actually, Adamh, this is what tonight's news will say:

QuoteJACKSONVILLE, FL -- Police are investigating after workers find a human skull on the Southside.

JSO confirmed that a bag of bones found at 1755 Leon Road, near Atlantic Boulevard did indeed include a human skull. A construction crew alerted police after finding the bag.

"I picked up the bag and what looked like the upper part of a skeleton fell out," said Jeff Osborne, who, along with his workmates, made the discovery.

The remains were taken from the scene for testing, to see if they can determine who it might have belonged to. JSO says the skull appeared to belong to adult, but they could not say yet whether it was a male or female.
©2008 First Coast News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, rewritten, or redistributed.

...and...

QuoteJACKSONVILLE, FL -- The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office is investigating an early morning shooting.

Police tell First Coast News a man was found shot to death on the 2500 block of Stratton Road.

A woman called 911 around 2:30 Friday morning.

When police arrived on the scene they found the man inside a trailer.

The victim's name has not been released.

There are no suspects in custody.

If you have any information that can help police call our partner First Coast Crime Stoppers at 1-866-845-TIPS. It is an anonymous call and you may be eligible for a cash reward of up to $1,000.
©2008 First Coast News. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, rewritten, or redistributed.

That second one was on the West side. Gosh, I hope no one on the Southside or Westside has kids! Kids or no, everyone living there is in great danger!

There are problems on the Northwest side of Jax. But let's be clearer than our local news media and suburbanites can be... Jacksonville's downtown neighborhoods, Riverside, Springfield, and even San Marco are not Northwest Jacksonville. And in case you don't follow our local media (I'd like more real news reporting than Jax gets), crime is up ALL OVER Jacksonville. Last week an air conditioning service man was attacked on the Southside, and a week or two before that, a teenage girl was raped in Neptune Beach. Like I said earlier, suburbanites have an alarmingly naive sense of safety.

And to your comment about house size, there is a great difference between "need" and "want". And you'd be correct if you said many people "want" a 6 br, 6ba house.

Hope to see you, and your family, at Klutho on Friday. Maybe you'll learn something.

Deerwood, Ponte Vedra, Epping, all those gated communities have problems as well so don't think living behind bars solves your problems either.

Quote from: gatorback on June 27, 2008, 12:12:41 PM
FBC runs this town.  They have since the '20s.  My question is what will the new board do to support transportation in jacksonville if they are the same old same old that got us into this mess in the first place.

Then why is it that Ginger Soud (FBC member) is not our Mayor?  Instead, we got little man Peyton.  Frankly, I would have preferred Soud.

This whole FBC bugaboo really is getting tired.  I hardly think a church with 30,000 (my estimate) members could control a city of 800,000+.

Lake:  How is the Nashville system doing in terms of ridership?

Its struggling with a $1.7 million annual deficit.  Problems include not figuring in some unanticipated expenses and selecting a route that attracts little ridership to save money on implementation costs.

QuoteMusic City Star falls well shy of ridership, revenue targets

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The Music City Star's money problems can be traced to its first year of operation, when passenger ticket sales came in $800,000 below projections and unanticipated costs, including high insurance premiums, drained its budget.

Now, as its parent agency scrambles to fill a $1.7 million hole in next year's budget, the U.S. government is watching intently.

The Federal Transit Administration, which invested more than $30 million in the 2006 startup of the Lebanon-to-Nashville commuter line, would demand its money back from the Regional Transportation Authority and the return of all assets if the Music City Star were to stop running, it wrote in a letter to local authorities this week.

Anxious riders are watching, too.

"Nashville has to look forward to the future of public transportation," said Joe George of Mt. Juliet, who ditched his car in February to cut down on gas cost and traffic frustrations. "There is going to be a need for more commuter rail or streetcars and express bus lanes as Nashville and the area continue to grow."

The scrutiny of the commuter train comes at time when Americans plagued with rising gas prices increasingly turn to public transportation. The next steps that the RTA board takes could mean the difference between success and failure of a vision that faced many skeptics and took 15 years to bring to fruition.

"The common thread is that everyone is vested in making this work," said Diane Thorne, who has been executive director of the Regional Transportation Authority since August. "We need to realize that unless everyone wants to continue to scramble every year, we need a dedicated, reliable funding source."

Refund may be sought

In a letter dated Tuesday, the regional administrator of the Federal Transit Administration told Thorne that the RTA would have to repay the government if "financial and operational issues" can't be solved.

"In the event that no adequate solution can be achieved and service is significantly reduced or halted, we remind you of your contractual obligation to protect the Federal interest in federally funded equipment and other assets," Yvette G. Taylor wrote.

The Music City Star made its first trip in September 2006, after nearly $42 million in startup costs had been invested to bring the 32-mile commuter rail to Middle Tennessee.

More than 10 years after initial talks about starting the rail line, 11 passenger rail vehicles â€" bought for $1 for from Chicago Metra â€" were up and running. Metra is Chicago's commuter rail service.

The train debuted as the least expensive commuter rail to be built in the United States, said Curtis Morgan, a project manager for the Texas Transportation Institute, a transportation research agency.

That was due in part to the decision to begin with the Wilson County corridor, which cost as little as one-tenth as much to bring online as others in the Nashville area.

Trains from Gallatin/Hendersonville or Murfreesboro might have provided more riders, but they would have run on tracks owned by rail giant CSX Corp. â€" and would have required extensive cooperation to schedule around major regional freight traffic. The Lebanon line belongs to the smaller, more flexible Nashville & Eastern Railroad.

"Nashville's Star has been an example," said Morgan, who is in the midst of studying commuter train in nontraditional rail communities, including Nashville. "They did a great job for the limited amount of funding they had."

Ridership falls short

Still, the startup road was much bumpier than projected.

In the first year, ridership fell considerably short of consultant projections of 1,479 daily trips. It's now averaging about half that number and recorded 938 trips on its best single day.

Thorne said she expects ridership to reach 1,000 by the end of the summer.

Fewer passengers in the beginning meant less in ticket sale revenues. The first year's operating budget in 2007 aimed to bring in $1.1 million in income from ticket sales. The RTA got about $360,000.

"There was nothing in Nashville to compare this with," said Paul Ballard, chief executive officer for the Metropolitan Transit Authority, who was involved in planning the commuter rail. "We looked at other projects around the country, but just as all politics are local, all public transit is local."

In year two, the RTA reduced the projection of ticket sales and will come close to making the forecasted $706,000 for 2008.

While income has gone down or remained steady, expenses have gone up, financial statements show. The insurance premium cost about $900,000, more than the $775,000 budgeted. Like a new driver, the RTA had no track record to prove it would not be a liability to the insurance agency.

In addition, an unanticipated $87,000 had to be spent on station security. Plus, marketing to get people on the train cost about $168,000 more than was budgeted. Fuel prices drained more money. A $400,000 budget for fuel in the summer of 2007 will increase to $662,000 or more next year.

As a result of all that, the agency ate up $2.25 million in federal funding, taking away $750,000 that RTA had hoped to put toward 2009.

The agency has created a task force to try to solve the train's immediate and recurring cash shortfall.

The Star's planners â€" and even some initial skeptics, such as Rob Shearer, former city manager of Mt. Juliet â€" stand by their decisions, including the one to start with Wilson County. Shearer said he wondered if it would truly work, but as gas prices rose and traffic congestion got worse, he changed his mind.

"There are expenses that we now see we're going to have that we didn't see 12 months ago," he said. "It wasn't because anyone hasn't been doing their job. It's just been a very difficult and challenging environment."

Morgan, of the Texas Transportation Institute, said while another route may have yielded more passengers and brought in more ticket income, another corridor would have been more expensive and may not have happened at all.

"I think it was a valiant attempt to put a commuter rail in place to show people what it could do," he said.

'It's a start'

Joe George, the Mt. Juliet train passenger, is glad the line that serves his town was chosen. "I know this eastern route may not be the most desirable for people," he said, "but it's a start."

George said riding the train meant he would not have to sit in Interstate 40 traffic in the mornings. "We're fortunate to have this open to us," George said. "There has been a steady increase in riders, and I am sure as fuel costs skyrocket, more people will use it."

But as the future stands, the Music City Star only has enough money to get through until Oct. 1, unless the task force of RTA board members and area government officials come up with additional income. The RTA could draw from its line of credit to finish out the year, but the Star would finish fiscal year 2009 with a $1.7 million shortfall.

"We need to be thinking outside the box and be creative to address the shortfall," said Ballard. "It is too important of a project to let it go on the way it is."

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