Metro Jacksonville

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/Ignite-media/i-sn7rD3M/0/L/jta-skyway-2-L.jpg)

QuoteBy David Chapman, Staff Writer

Since its first runs back in 1989, the Skyway has had its share of critics.
The people mover has had nicknames like the "Riderless Express." Some have deemed it a waste of taxpayer dollars.

The Downtown service also has had its share of supporters, evidenced by upward-ticking ridership in recent years. By the end of this year, it's expected almost 1.4 million people will use the service this year — almost 1 million per year than just five years ago. That's been boosted by free ridership since Sept. 1, 2012.

Despite the ups and down, the Skyway has arrived at a critical juncture in its lifetime.

The infrastructure is mostly solid. The vehicles used to ferry people throughout Downtown are not.

But, only six of the 10 vehicles remain in service and have a lifespan of another five years or so. That means the Jacksonville Transportation Authority has a tough question to answer — one with a high price tag, regardless of the direction it goes.

"It's one of the most challenging questions this team faces," said Nathaniel Ford, JTA's CEO.

An answer, the JTA has determined, can come in one of four forms: overhaul it, buy new vehicles, decommission the system or repurpose it.

Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546033

I'd say go big and do the new vehicles, based on one thing: savings in any future expansion. Using a normal streetcar would make it much cheaper to extend lines outside of Downtown than if we spend somewhat less money on new versions of the current cars. At the point Jacksonville does get a streetcar system, we'll be thankful we were so forward thinking.

With these price tags I'm not surprised some would be consider a total tear down, but it just seems wasteful when the infrastructure itself is still solid.

Doesn't look like much of a decision if you ask me.

I'd suggest new vehicles. However, go with a traditional or modern streetcar instead of more AGT vehicles. You'll have some initial infrastructure costs but the long term payout will blow any of the other options out of the water, because you'll have common equipment and future expansion can be done at-grade, significantly reducing the costs, while adding ridership.

^yeah that's the way to go. I thought that's what the article was talking about. Wonder what the cost difference would be.

I voted Other,  but see the Streetcar option is part of the Different Vehicles choice.  That seems to make the most sense.

I am glad the article put down the costs from all areas.  I think that was smart, so the public could see how high the price would be for dumping the line.  New cars was my vote. 

No surprise most on this forum (including myself) vote to spend the money and overhaul it. I would say though, if they do that they need to expand/finish it.

The skyway in its current form is not worth $85 million. Ridership also won't change much if it's left the way it is. Either put some money in to it or shut `er down. We can't half-ass it anymore.

If I read it right, shutting her down is $116 million, not including the cost of whatever transit service you're going to implement to replace it.

Which will probably be buses for the next 100 years. 

^True, but there's still a cost associated with them. In other words, it's cheaper to keep her....

I say new vehicles that have a higher seating capacity than 6.

Ya, definitely get new vehicles and expand it. The street car idea is exactly what it should be so that the expansion can be easy and cheaper into urban core neighborhoods like Riverside and maybe even out to the stadium. We need to get on it soon!

Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2015, 02:05:35 PM
I'd suggest new vehicles. However, go with a traditional or modern streetcar instead of more AGT vehicles. You'll have some initial infrastructure costs but the long term payout will blow any of the other options out of the water, because you'll have common equipment and future expansion can be done at-grade, significantly reducing the costs, while adding ridership.

Written perfectly.  +1

Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2015, 02:05:35 PM
I'd suggest new vehicles. However, go with a traditional or modern streetcar instead of more AGT vehicles. You'll have some initial infrastructure costs but the long term payout will blow any of the other options out of the water, because you'll have common equipment and future expansion can be done at-grade, significantly reducing the costs, while adding ridership.

Yes!

I wonder if by re-purposing and converting to more conventional street car types, would the 38.1 million have to be repaid? Is not the government giving funds out like they did for the people mover but today for street car?  Perhaps it would be a scenario ripe for a deal? Maybe Lake's idea would be the cheapest while actually being the best.

I disagree about the decommissioning cost though.  I read it as 79 million total - it mentions under scenario one that it would cost about 25Million to tear down the system. 

If JTA plans to look at revitalizing the Skyway, I have to assume they will also look at the possibility of extending the system to ensure it covers as much of Downtown as possible.  While we know the cost of a Brooklyn extension since JTA previously applied for a TIGER grant for that potential project, does anyone know if they have estimated the costs for extending the Skyway to Springfield, the sports complex or at least to the eastern part of Downtown (where the Shipyards and former courthouse properties are primed for development)? It may well be that cost, projected ridership, or other reasons make these extensions problematic, but I would think that a major goal of any Skyway reboot is comprehensive intra-Downtown transit.   

Quote from: Chris Hand on August 29, 2015, 02:38:08 PM
If JTA plans to look at revitalizing the Skyway, I have to assume they will also look at the possibility of extending the system to ensure it covers as much of Downtown as possible.  While we know the cost of a Brooklyn extension since JTA previously applied for a TIGER grant for that potential project, does anyone know if they have estimated the costs for extending the Skyway to Springfield, the sports complex or at least to the eastern part of Downtown (where the Shipyards and former courthouse properties are primed for development)? It may well be that cost, projected ridership, or other reasons make these extensions problematic, but I would think that a major goal of any Skyway reboot is comprehensive intra-Downtown transit.   

A Brooklyn extension doesn't have to cost what JTA's TIGER grant application called for (which included another elevated platform). TIGER grants have a minimum threshold and a lot of those plans were padded to meet that threshold (nothing you don't already know).

If the Skyway was retofitted with another type of transportation mode, a San Marco extension would offer the next most bang for the buck, particularly if the tracks were dropped down to grade (terminating at Atlantic Blvd). A good chunk of the ROW is attainable and there are TOD opportunities that could help offset the cost. You're essentially then connecting an already vibrant, walkable town center with downtown.

^And help fuel additional redevelopment and infill on Kings between the Kings Avenue garage and Atlantic Boulevard.

All I ask is that when JTA makes the commitment (whatver form it takes)  is that COJ aligns its goals to support it through strat planning and TOD.

I understand peoples skepticism, however, we have a great opportunity to take advantage of our earlier shortcomings.

The fact that Nat Ford is even facilitating these interactions with the civic community is fantastic.

I am for any option that doesnt involve a tear down or conversion to a greenway.

Wouldn't an at grade streetcar crossing at the FEC have the same problem with schedule as bus crossings?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 29, 2015, 10:17:13 PM
Wouldn't an at grade streetcar crossing at the FEC have the same problem with schedule as bus crossings?

I think the idea is that it would be elevated over the tracks then drop down to grade for the run to Atlantic.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2015, 05:39:43 PM
^And help fuel additional redevelopment and infill on Kings between the Kings Avenue garage and Atlantic Boulevard.

Which is going to be an attractive redevelopment opportunity to someone that can assemble the land, particularly now that a highway exit will be close by (see Brooklyn/Forrest St).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqH21LEmfbQ

I was very pleased to learn that we were getting on elevated transportation system in Jacksonville but I was disappointed that in reality it didn't go anywhere if we extend this out to the beaches and other parts of  Jacksonville I believe ridership will increase massively.

https://www.youtube.com/v/IL_ztPckuYU

Video from 1992^

Funny video.......1992 looks just like 2015.......an empty mover connecting nothing to nowhere......except now in 2015 JAX has way more vacant overgrown lots in downtown.........ahhhhhh progress........

Please don't put more money into this system; it is way too limited and has not proven successful for 20 years, so why do we think it will now?  A few short extensions will not make a difference.  Let's take a page from the High Line in NYC and repurpose the tracks for parks/bike paths/walking paths that can help the city's public spaces.  I know that means buying out the grant, but so be it.  Think Bigger, Jacksonville!

Trying to do a poor man's version of the High Line on narrow elevated infrastructure like the Skyway isn't thinking bigger.  It's being the same old Jax. Spending over $50 million in an attempt to further take people off downtown's empty sidewalks is taking steps back.  Looking to NYC for examples of best practices is a great thing and should be encouraged. However, before we start planning elevated parks, lets get some of the many basics right first. This would include better maintenance of existing parks, rightsizing existing streets, getting a few projects like the Trio off the ground, etc.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3191309940_xpG8k52-M.jpg)
High Line - "notice the width"

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1313149640_rZxGLV4-M.jpg)
Skyway - "notice the width"

Several sources (OK, Wikipedia) cite the High Line width as ranging between 30 and 50 feet, which is the same generally as the Skyway. A High Line would be transformative for downtown, who cares if it is derivative, it is a model worth copying. Make it an aerial artwalk & landscape it. Until I walked the High Line I had no idea how it would feel & plug into the city - it is a great feeling to hover mid-level like that.

Quote from: AviationMetalSmith on September 18, 2015, 05:34:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com/v/IL_ztPckuYU

Video from 1992^

This video shows the original Matra based system.  Those cars were sold to O'Hare Airport for their new people mover. I recognize those cars from the umpteen times I had to ride it to reach remote parking and rental.

Quote from: tpot on September 18, 2015, 05:44:06 PM
Funny video.......1992 looks just like 2015.......an empty mover connecting nothing to nowhere......except now in 2015 JAX has way more vacant overgrown lots in downtown.........ahhhhhh progress........

Clearly you don't ride the Skyway. You will rarely find an empty Skyway train these days.

Quote from: Thad Crowe on September 21, 2015, 11:02:10 AM
Several sources (OK, Wikipedia) cite the High Line width as ranging between 30 and 50 feet, which is the same generally as the Skyway. A High Line would be transformative for downtown, who cares if it is derivative, it is a model worth copying. Make it an aerial artwalk & landscape it. Until I walked the High Line I had no idea how it would feel & plug into the city - it is a great feeling to hover mid-level like that.

Measuring from Google Earth, the Skyway is roughly 24' in width, including the open section between the tracks. Where the tracks split around each station, the width drops to less than 12'. Using the same measuring tool, the High Line is roughly 40' to +50' in width, with a few areas that are wider. A standard shared use path is 12' in width. Unless we're talking about widening the Skyway's elevated infrastructure and adding/integrating buildings with it, we won't end up with the linear park atmosphere of the High Line. We'd end up with an elevated version of the Northside's S-Line.

Quote from: Cayotica@icloud.com on September 18, 2015, 01:42:43 PM
I was very pleased to learn that we were getting on elevated transportation system in Jacksonville but I was disappointed that in reality it didn't go anywhere if we extend this out to the beaches and other parts of  Jacksonville I believe ridership will increase massively.

I asked my kids (20/22 years old) what they should do about the Skyway.

First response?

- Needs to go to the beach
- Needs to go to the stadium (especially for concerts)

They said they would use it more if it went to the beach. They love the beach, they hate the parking situation out there. 

As opposed to a High Line, steal a page out of Miami's book and go with an Under Line. You could probably do some pretty cool things with the streets and public right-of-way under the Skyway. See the images below:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Slabs-of-Downtown-Jacksonville/i-G2945Bp/0/L/DSCF6271-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Downtown-Jacksonville/i-hHwpFPt/0/M/P1190997-M.jpg)

(https://crowdly-uploads-production.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/venue_photo/image/553/Screen_Shot_2014-11-11_at_3.33.05_PM.png)

All this to say....we'd be dusting off old visions and plans never implemented...

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7662-skyway_hogan_street.jpg)

It could be a pretty popular place, given our climate and the potential ability to fully integrate such a space with retail shops, sidewalk cafes, destinations like Sweet Pete's, beer gardens, etc. It could also tie in with a complete streets retrofit of Park Street, effectively creating a pedestrian/bike/transit corridor through downtown and into Brooklyn and Riverside. Some renderings of the Under Line below:

(https://res.cloudinary.com/mindmixerprod/image/upload/w_800,h_500,c_limit,f_auto/20150623060238-32d723d0.jpg)

(http://condoblackbook.com/images-gallery/public/1633)

(http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2015/08/Underline-by-James-Corner-Field-Operations-proposal_dezeen_468_6.jpg)

I like that idea Lake. Nice job!

Quote from: spuwho on September 21, 2015, 11:23:10 AM

Quote from: Cayotica@icloud.com on September 18, 2015, 01:42:43 PM
I was very pleased to learn that we were getting on elevated transportation system in Jacksonville but I was disappointed that in reality it didn't go anywhere if we extend this out to the beaches and other parts of  Jacksonville I believe ridership will increase massively.

I asked my kids (20/22 years old) what they should do about the Skyway.

First response?

- Needs to go to the beach
- Needs to go to the stadium (especially for concerts)

They said they would use it more if it went to the beach. They love the beach, they hate the parking situation out there.

I would be first in line if it went to the beach, especially via UNF!

Someone more knowledgeable than me (Ock or Lake would probably know best) but I don't think a monorail is fit for that type of distance. The top speed of the Skyway would also make it a long ride.

The Skyway wasn't meant to be a system that can travel great distances.  All it is, is a small downtown circulator in its current state. Utilizing it for anything that will reach UNF or the beach will require the retrofit of the system into another type of technology like streetcar or LRT.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
The Skyway wasn't meant to be a system that can travel great distances.  All it is, is a small downtown circulator in its current state. Utilizing it for anything that will reach UNF or the beach will require the retrofit of the system into another type of technology like streetcar or LRT.

I always take comments like that as a desire of some type of rail transit between the Beach and Downtown (that could connect with the Skyway). The "Skyway" in that sense is just the local reference point. I see it like Boston's transit system: there are several different types of trains in the T, as well as buses, and even if people don't understand the differences between them, they link up so you can get where you want to go.

Ennis, under the Skyway are the typical sidewalks & streets, only differentiated from other sidewalks & streets by the ugly structure above them. Putting kiosks or landscaping below it won't be different or exciting. What is different & interesting is for the pedestrian to move through the City on a 3rd floor level, which gives a fresh perspective that is a little like floating. And if 12 foot makes a good multi-purpose pathway, 20+ makes a great Pedway. IMO of course.

The most exciting thing you can do for the pedestrians in an urban setting is intergrate the land uses at street level. Everything else is secondary.

I agree, but sometimes secondary can supplement primary. Three dimensions!

Yes. However, at this point, we need focus on getting our primary right, while also becoming more multimodal friendly and connected. Given our environment, it's difficult for me to see how spending $65-$85 million for an disconnected elevated bike/ped path at the expense of fixed transit connectivity and street level vibrancy is good path to go. It's going against the grain (tried and true revitalization methods) and history has shown when we go against the grain, we end up failing and burning a lot of tax money doing so.

The advisory group that will help determine the future of the Skyway:

Paul Astleford (Visit Jacksonville)
Michelle Barth (Feeding Northeast Florida)
Debbie Buckland (BB&T and Downtown Vision Inc.)
Rick Catlett (Jacksonville Sports Council)
Alex Coley (NAI Hallmark Partners LLC)
Steve Crosby (CSX Real Property)
Husein Cumber (Florida East Coast Industries)
Marie Foster Gnage (Florida State College at Jacksonville Downtown Campus)
Dane Grey (Parking Services of America)
Tommy Hazouri (Jacksonville City Council)
Janice Lowe (The Jacksonville Landing)
Jeanne Miller (Jacksonville Civic Council)
Alan Mosley (Jax Chamber)
Kerri Stewart (Mayor's office)
Aundra Wallace (Downtown Investment Authority)

for more: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/09/22/jta-selects-skyway-advisory-group.html

buncha moguls & politicos - where are our design & technical people? Don't see the long view coming out from that group. Thanks Ennis.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
The Skyway wasn't meant to be a system that can travel great distances.  All it is, is a small downtown circulator in its current state. Utilizing it for anything that will reach UNF or the beach will require the retrofit of the system into another type of technology like streetcar or LRT.

Which is why it has been kind of a failure no?  I can't think of an elevated people mover/skyway system in this country that only services a relatively small core area that is successful other than Disney's.  Detroit, Miami, Jacksonville . . . . all pretty inefficient systems are they not?  The really efficient ones extend to the suburbs like Chicago's elevated train, DC's, Boston's, NYC's, etc.  Even the more modern systems like Charlotte, Phoenix, Orlando, Houston, Dallas, etc go out to the suburbs.  The skyway in my opinion needs to eventually be retrofitted to handle and more long distance system.  Keep the infrastructure that's there just retrofit it and extend it via ground level tracks and elevated where needed.  Lake, didn't you say way back that it was originally designed to handle an LRT system?

Quote from: CCMjax on September 22, 2015, 12:27:18 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
The Skyway wasn't meant to be a system that can travel great distances.  All it is, is a small downtown circulator in its current state. Utilizing it for anything that will reach UNF or the beach will require the retrofit of the system into another type of technology like streetcar or LRT.

Which is why it has been kind of a failure no?  I can't think of an elevated people mover/skyway system in this country that only services a relatively small core area that is successful other than Disney's.  Detroit, Miami, Jacksonville . . . . all pretty inefficient systems are they not?  The really efficient ones extend to the suburbs like Chicago's elevated train, DC's, Boston's, NYC's, etc.  Even the more modern systems like Charlotte, Phoenix, Orlando, Houston, Dallas, etc go out to the suburbs.  The skyway in my opinion needs to eventually be retrofitted to handle and more long distance system.  Keep the infrastructure that's there just retrofit it and extend it via ground level tracks and elevated where needed.  Lake, didn't you say way back that it was originally designed to handle an LRT system?

Ok I just read your other article about Miami's skyway being relatively successful so maybe I'm wrong.  The last time I was in Miami was about 10 years ago and I remember it being just kind of something taking up space and I didn't see many people on it.  Detroit's was always kind of that way as well but I haven't seen it in a while.

Quote from: CCMjax on September 22, 2015, 12:27:18 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
The Skyway wasn't meant to be a system that can travel great distances.  All it is, is a small downtown circulator in its current state. Utilizing it for anything that will reach UNF or the beach will require the retrofit of the system into another type of technology like streetcar or LRT.

Which is why it has been kind of a failure no?  I can't think of an elevated people mover/skyway system in this country that only services a relatively small core area that is successful other than Disney's.  Detroit, Miami, Jacksonville . . . . all pretty inefficient systems are they not?  The really efficient ones extend to the suburbs like Chicago's elevated train, DC's, Boston's, NYC's, etc.  Even the more modern systems like Charlotte, Phoenix, Orlando, Houston, Dallas, etc go out to the suburbs.  The skyway in my opinion needs to eventually be retrofitted to handle and more long distance system.  Keep the infrastructure that's there just retrofit it and extend it via ground level tracks and elevated where needed.  Lake, didn't you say way back that it was originally designed to handle an LRT system?

Chicago, DC, Boston and NYC (plus SF and Philly) all use multiple modes of fixed transit. There's no reason the skyway couldnt be successful as it is right now if it had other modes connecting to it. In any case, even if it can all be retrofitted into light rail, Jax would most likely have to use heavy rail for its commuter lines running SW and SE from DT. I'd imagine north to the airport would probably be the same as well though it's not as obvious. So, like those legacy cities, we'll need a mix to serve all the areas of the metro. (Bus is important too)

As you noted in your next post, Miami's metromover has seen a resurgence as the overall system (including two other modes of fixed transit) has become better utilized.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 21, 2015, 04:23:55 PM
The Skyway wasn't meant to be a system that can travel great distances.  All it is, is a small downtown circulator in its current state. Utilizing it for anything that will reach UNF or the beach will require the retrofit of the system into another type of technology like streetcar or LRT.

The type of system you describe is exactly what UMTA (now FTA) wanted to test in various downtowns back when this was being planned. I think most people don't realize that the feds came to Jacksonville and said we want you to do this... not the other way around. The city said yes and then asked JTA to work on the planning. There was also a significant community based portion who gave their approval before anything concrete was poured. The problem was too many business moved from the downtown core between design and construction completion leaving a serious lack of ridership from the word go.

That loss of business traffic, and subsequent loss of ridership kept local politicians and other city leaders from building out the system as planned.
Looking back at the Skyway now and saying it should be this or it should be that just doesn't hold water. Nobody anticipated what was going to come to downtown. Whether they should or not is up for debate. But the Skyway is a symptom of what happened, not a cause.

Now, with decisions to make on its future, is a time when it can be transformed into something more relevant and useful. Although with three consecutive years of 1M plus ridership, its doing pretty well with what it is. The future of the Skyway could be great... if there is enough foresight and commitment to make it happen.

Think about if Shad Khan's vision for the Shipyards comes to fruition and the Skyway extends there. Or the two proposed Southbank developments happen and the Skyway connects to those. and then there's Brooklyn. Just those three new spurs along could potentially double the current ridership as it could bring constant flow to the system and give a reason for a 7-day operation rather than 5 day and a few weekend event days.

If a at-grade solution could be incorporated even better as it would save money over building concrete columns and stations in the sky.

All that without extend beyond the downtown and close neighborhoods are. Then you let commuter rail or LRT extend out to the Beaches, Orange Park, Mandarin, etc.

^Great points!