How Jax Compares: The Different Faces of Density
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-07-2015/i-RrNw9tb/0/L/P1750101-L.jpg)
Density comes in all shapes, forms and sizes. Here's how some of Jacksonville's most popular neighborhoods compare in density with select walkable neighborhoods in well known American cities.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-aug-how-jax-compares-the-different-faces-of-density
well done....gives people a real quick look at what density is and isn't!
The Jacksonville The Space In Between tract is an anomaly, as the Jail is skewing the numbers by a huge margin. None of those 'residents' will be walking around or patronizing businesses.
I need to see if the jail is included in that number or not. Or if it's bolstered by the shape of that tract, which includes several high rise senior living buildings and public housing.
Looks like the jail accounts for roughly 1/3rd of Jax's census tract 1's population.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 05, 2015, 08:07:38 AM
well done....gives people a real quick look at what density is and isn't!
The images below pretty much captures the type of neighborhood/housing density I personally prefer and was looking for when I first came to town:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chicago-Lake-View/i-ddG8Cjg/0/L/P1570509-L.jpg)
Lakeview - Chicago(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Richmond-2013/i-LjpdTQv/0/L/P1650661-L.jpg)
The Fan - Richmond(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Midtown-Detroit-2011/i-NLHK2nN/0/L/P1460303-L.jpg)
Midtown - Detroit (built density is there but half of the buildings are still empty)Roughly 20k to 30k residents per square mile. A far cry from the +100k packing parts of NYC or the +50k living in downtown Miami highrise condos, but significantly more packed than what's currently available in Jax. Pedestrian scale, with a "little" yard/courtyard space, in a housing type that has no one living on top or below you.
Looking at the local landscape, it seems that the erased neighborhoods (Brooklyn, LaVilla, Sugar Hill, Cathedral District, etc.) have future potential for infill to reach such density levels (I suspect they had such density levels prior to 1950). If places like Richmond and Norfolk can maintain small pockets of such density, Jax should be able too. Probably not in my lifetime (or at least where I'm of age to enjoy it), but at some point in the distant future.
Lavilla/ Brooklyn prob would have been comparable to Savannah. Great job on this. Very enlightening
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 09:24:15 AM
Looks like the jail accounts for roughly 1/3rd of Jax's census tract 1's population.
So where do the other 2/3rds of them live? The apartment towers?
I really like Durkeeville.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 05, 2015, 10:11:58 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 05, 2015, 09:24:15 AM
Looks like the jail accounts for roughly 1/3rd of Jax's census tract 1's population.
So where do the other 2/3rds of them live? The apartment towers?
Centennial Towers, Centennial Townhouses East, Mary Singleton Senior Citizens Center, Liberty Center, 2 of the 3 Cathedral Towers, Stevens Duval Apartments, etc. There's also a decent collection of single family housing sandwiched between 1st Street and Old City cemetery and in the Cathedral District east of Liberty Street. Other than a few old school pockets, such as E Church Street, opposite the Parks at Cathedral townhomes, its pretty autocentric style development.
E Church Street (Cathedral District)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6720-p1150457.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6768-p1150526.JPG)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6746-p1150525.JPG)
Come to think of it, don't those Duval County Pre-trial Detention Center inmates have a lot in common with all the wannabe urbanists trapped in suburbia by pro-developer autocentric government policy?
<sarcasm alert> ;)
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.
I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.
It's a great place to visit and witness. Ttry working in the area and commuting on Canal st. for a couple of years and tell me how you like it.
Pearl Paint was there the last time I visited! Cool store.
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.
I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.
Looked and smelled exactly the same when I was there this past Summer except that it's eaten more of Little Italy.
Quote from: stephendare on August 05, 2015, 02:46:38 PM
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
Is that your memory from 15 years ago?
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.
I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.
I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time! Can't wait :)
Chinatown in Manhattan is far from the most dense place in Manhattan, and North Beach in SF is far from the most dense place in SF. Some of the most pleasant areas in Manhattan with some of the most greenspace per capita for that part of the city are also the most dense (UES, UWS).
Quite frankly, personal space is relative. Density can be achieved through some sort of combination of many many housing units over very small area, very very small units, or very very large families in spaces too small for the family size.
Relatively affluent places in New York have 100-200+K ppsm with building density much greater than Chinatown because the apartments are quite spacious and families aren't all that large, so there is even some greenspace mixed in with wide streets. That is quite comfortable.
Conversely, there are parts of SF where the density is also 100-200K ppsm, but rather than 20-30+ story buildings, it is only 6-12 story buildings, and the units are teeny tiny and cramped (we call them SROs here and no city has a higher concentration/# of SROs still to this day than SF - the Bowery in NYC used to be similar, and that is near Chinatown).
Parts of Los Angeles are quite dense even with sprawling apartment complexes and single family homes because wide swaths of that city are poor with insanely large family sizes (not to be stereotypical...but lots of Catholic Mexican immigrant families).
So there's a lot that goes into density. It's pretty easy to make very high density quite comfortable, actually.
Conversely, a lack of density can be quite uncomfortable. Woodsy areas in cities pretty much scare me, personally. I always get creeped out and have a feeling like there are serial killers out there, hiding in the bushes and trees, and it's not like there is sufficient lighting on city streets, or other people walking around. So yea, low density can be damn terrifying in a city, and high density can be downright pleasant, it just depends.
Quote from: simms3 on August 05, 2015, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.
I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.
I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time! Can't wait :)
It can be fun - but I'm just too old and intolerant of crowds. But like any big city, the crowds and the buzz is all part of the attraction.
Chinatown in Manhattan does smell, though. Like, pretty badly. Oddly, Chinatown in SF does not smell as bad, but it can also be quite pungent.
Fortunately for middle class white people who don't like to live in smelly conditions and are fortunate enough to have more choices, Chinatown in any major city doesn't have to be a living option. But it's a fantastic way for new Chinese immigrants to find community and find their feet.
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 03:00:26 PM
Quote from: simms3 on August 05, 2015, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.
I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.
I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time! Can't wait :)
It can be fun - but I'm just too old and intolerant of crowds. But like any big city, the crowds and the buzz is all part of the attraction.
And it does cater to particular nightlife ;)
Quote from: simms3 on August 05, 2015, 03:01:08 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 03:00:26 PM
Quote from: simms3 on August 05, 2015, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Adam White on August 05, 2015, 02:25:55 PM
Quote from: AngryChicken on August 05, 2015, 02:16:43 PM
Chinatown New York City is one of the worst places on Earth. Its filthy. It smells like glazed duck and four day old fish. And you don't have an inch of personal space to yourself.
I always liked it, to be honest. But it's not like I would necessarily want to spend lots and lots of time there. I hate crowds - but I suppose it's fun in small doses for the spectacle.
I enjoyed Pearl River Mart - is it still there? Chinatown in London irritates me - but that's probably because it's basically in Soho, which is like the third circle of hell or something.
I'll be hanging out in SoHo/London in short matter's time! Can't wait :)
It can be fun - but I'm just too old and intolerant of crowds. But like any big city, the crowds and the buzz is all part of the attraction.
And it does cater to particular nightlife ;)
Yes, there's that too :D
Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF
Detroit = Building Streetcar + established BRT
Kansas City = Building Streetcar + established BRT
Louisville = Engineering LRT
Savannah = Streetcar + Water Taxi + Plans for greatly increased streetcar system
Charlotte = LRT + Streetcar + BRT + Commuter Rail on the way
Houston = LRT + BRT + Plans for regional HSR
Norfolk = LRT + BRT + More LRT under construction
New Orleans = Streetcar + Plans for Commuter/regional Rail
Orlando = Commuter Rail + BRT + Plans for LRT + AAF
Nashville = Commuter Rail + Building BRT + Plans for more of both
Jacksonville = BRT Lite + CHIRP + CHIRP + CHIRP
BRT = Bus Rapid Transit
LRT = Light Rail Transit
Time to pull your head out Jacksonville!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 05, 2015, 06:10:54 PM
Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF
actually no...there are virtiually no plans for LRT or commuter rail...and Jax. is ahead on AAF as well
as for BRT, the JTA version is pretty much identical to Tampa's MetroRapid....except for the fact that Jax has more funding
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 05, 2015, 10:55:34 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 05, 2015, 06:10:54 PM
Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF
actually no...there are virtiually no plans for LRT or commuter rail...and Jax. is ahead on AAF as well
as for BRT, the JTA version is pretty much identical to Tampa's MetroRapid....except for the fact that Jax has more funding
Plus, Tampa's streetcar seems to be considered even more of a joke than the Skyway.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 05, 2015, 10:55:34 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 05, 2015, 06:10:54 PM
Tampa = Streetcar + BRT + Plans for LRT, Commuter Rail and AAF
actually no...there are virtiually no plans for LRT or commuter rail...and Jax. is ahead on AAF as well
as for BRT, the JTA version is pretty much identical to Tampa's MetroRapid....except for the fact that Jax has more funding
When was that vote 'NO TAX FOR TRACKS' in Jacksonville? In Tampa its been at least twice to the pump, St. Pete too, looking at HART or FDOT sites and doing a bit of mining Tampa is being pushed toward fixed rail including AAF. When has JAX laid down LRT compliant trackage along Bay Street? Where are the Jax officials that have held those high level meetings with AAF? Tampa rail will reemerge and we'll still be talking.
Tampa voted in 2010/2011...and it lost
Pinellas voted in 2014...and it lost by even more
Trust me when I tell you that Tampa is not being pushed into rail...in fact, HART doesn't have it anywhere in their plans...including the one they refer to as the "Christmas morning wish list" version
Really? How about a very public $1 dollar gentlemen's bet, rail is back on the plans within 10 years.
In order to avoid getting too far off topic Hillsborough MPO is pushing for SunRail to extend into Tampa or utilizing Brooksville to DT Tampa on CSX line. Over 300 constituents rallied against the TBX (express lane) project in Tampa. The board has voted for it, HOWEVER FDOT has to follow the boards recommendations ($1 million for streetcar, and a fixed-guideway/multi-modal system) more news will be released in the coming months....
From Twitter via Brian Willis
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Bd5jmOvMMMBDTtN5mnCNyizs4bwWkfCIA1pB4siJn9s=w630-h391-no)
QuoteQuote from: Ocklawaha on August 06, 2015, 07:43:53 PM
Really? How about a very public $1 dollar gentlemen's bet, rail is back on the plans within 10 years.
on the plans sure...I'll bet the same for Jax
JAX can't spell rale, raile, um you know, it's a four letter word, but your going to lose that bet in Tampa!
Quote from: gjosephunf on August 06, 2015, 09:36:35 PM
In order to avoid getting too far off topic Hillsborough MPO is pushing for SunRail to extend into Tampa or utilizing Brooksville to DT Tampa on CSX line. Over 300 constituents rallied against the TBX (express lane) project in Tampa. The board has voted for it, HOWEVER FDOT has to follow the boards recommendations ($1 million for streetcar, and a fixed-guideway/multi-modal system) more news will be released in the coming months....
I am very aware of the discussions...in fact, I've been involved peripherally. Before moving to Jax, I lived in Tampa for 7 years. And I still do plenty of work down there.
I stand by my original statement that, at this time, Tampa is not ahead of Jacksonville regarding rail transit. Keep in mind that JTA has been conducting commuter rail studies for several years.
Also note the CSX study referenced in the TIP (which has not started or been funded yet) is not for extension of SunRail...CSX has been adamant that the rail lines from Plant City to Tampa is too lucrative for them...this would be for the corridor that comes down from Pasco County into Ybor City.
I can't imagine CSX allowing any commuter rail on their tracks east of the Uceta yard. There's too much money to be made. One day, phosphate will go away but the way companies like Amazon, Walmart, FedEx, etc. are piling distribution hubs into the I-4 corridor, there will still be a lot to ship.
What's weird about the TECO streetcar and Skyway is that we found a way to screw things up in opposite directions. The Skyway serves downtown pretty well but doesn't connect downtown with any surrounding neighborhoods. The TECO Streetcar serves Ybor well but fails to adaquately tie into downtown Tampa. However, it has helped spur TOD around the convention center and Channel District.
On the flip end, the Skyway has never really been coordinated with land use policy and development. However, when it boils down to shear ridership, it averages around 4,300 a day (ridership increased 72% since becoming fare free), while the TECO Streetcar is one of the worst performing fixed transit lines in the country with 700 daily riders.
What Tampa did right was:
1. Go to streetcar
2. Build infrastructure that is LRT compliant
3. Get a leg from a near CBD to a tourist area
4. TOD
What they did horribly wrong:
1. Not pushing for an immediate extension into Carver City/TPA and Bayshore (another famous historic streetcar route)
2. Properly link it with all other mass transit
What Jacksonville did right was:
UM?
What they did horribly wrong:
Didn't complete the line to UF
Didn't complete the line to Riverside
Didn't complete the line to Eastside
Didn't complete the line to San Marco
Didn't coordinate it with the transit system
Went for PIE-IN-THE-SKY techno crap as a mode (the first phase, 1. a elevated highway 2. a guided railway 3. rubber tires)
Went for slightly more mainstream monorail crap as the mode (the second phase, 1. elevated highway 2. elevated railway/beamway 3. rubber tires 4. out of scale for the needs
Coin operated (worked once or twice a month) fare collection
Ban bicycles (until recently and even then it should be left up to the passengers on the platform as to when a bike fits and can ride)
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 07, 2015, 08:45:37 AM
Quote from: gjosephunf on August 06, 2015, 09:36:35 PM
In order to avoid getting too far off topic Hillsborough MPO is pushing for SunRail to extend into Tampa or utilizing Brooksville to DT Tampa on CSX line. Over 300 constituents rallied against the TBX (express lane) project in Tampa. The board has voted for it, HOWEVER FDOT has to follow the boards recommendations ($1 million for streetcar, and a fixed-guideway/multi-modal system) more news will be released in the coming months....
I am very aware of the discussions...in fact, I've been involved peripherally. Before moving to Jax, I lived in Tampa for 7 years. And I still do plenty of work down there.
I stand by my original statement that, at this time, Tampa is not ahead of Jacksonville regarding rail transit. Keep in mind that JTA has been conducting commuter rail studies for several years.
Also note the CSX study referenced in the TIP (which has not started or been funded yet) is not for extension of SunRail...CSX has been adamant that the rail lines from Plant City to Tampa is too lucrative for them...this would be for the corridor that comes down from Pasco County into Ybor City.
Actually, the TIP has started for freeway expansion, streetcar, and greenways. Helped aid with pushing the first cycle track on Cass St.
http://www.planhillsborough.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Final-TIP-14-15.pdf
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LhpaPXgUFeWJ3lzSZoSGpb3M2vt5hGT9X9j3ELfRb2Q=w423-h564-no)
The community has been adamant against express lanes. The MPO has pushed FDOT to do it the boards way or no express lanes at all. Either streetcar expansion up Florida Ave., or Commuter Rail from Brooksville. A "plan" is in place due to the Vinik Development, and grassroots organizations like Connect Tampa Bay, URBN Tampa Bay pushing for mobility.
OCKLAWAHA'S CRYSTAL BALL!
Watch Sunrail morph into Central-North Florida regional rail al la CAL-TRAIN eventually reaching from Jax to Tampa via Orlando. Freight will not stop the trains, according to the AAR the only rail line in Florida that might approach/hit the 10-15 trains daily would be Jax to Lakeland. The Santa Fe operates 100-200 daily over it's entire Chicago-Los Angeles mainline. We apparently fear what we don't know, even AAF plus the FEC freight traffic will be a pip-squeak compared to hundreds of other locations. The San Diego sub of the BNSF handles more trains then most of Florida's railroad's combined and does some of it with signaled single track with sidings.
Meanwhile
Watch AAF grow into regional HrSR along the east coast corridor including the Orlando branch.