How All Aboard Florida Train Project Will Shift Traffic
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/All-Aboard-Florida/i-7SJmnMV/0/L/MJ-AAF-L.jpg)
Infrastructure has been driving population growth in the Florida East Coast corridor since the 1930's. This has caused traffic jams, congested roadways and many negative environmental impacts. Let the All Aboard Florida train project make your travel experience easier and more enjoyable with comforts like WiFi and a cafe cart. No longer will you need to sit in traffic on I-95 or the Turnpike.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-jul-how-all-aboard-florida-train-project-will-shift-traffic
This article has to be sarcastic. If they are serious then I want what they are taking! When was the last time anyone considered taking a train anywhere? I'm not talking about Chicago/New York/Boston/SF commuter trains. I'm talking about a train from one Florida city to another Florida city. What do you do once you're at the destination city? Walk to where you need to go? How do you get to the train station to begin with? Drive your car?
This whole thing is a boondoggle for the train company to get tax payer funded improvements for their tracks.
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 02:38:15 AM
This article has to be sarcastic. If they are serious then I want what they are taking! When was the last time anyone considered taking a train anywhere? I'm not talking about Chicago/New York/Boston/SF commuter trains. I'm talking about a train from one Florida city to another Florida city. What do you do once you're at the destination city? Walk to where you need to go? How do you get to the train station to begin with? Drive your car?
What do you do when you fly into a city? I'm actually seriously considering flying into Fort Lauderdale for a conference in September because the roundtrip fares between there and Jax are running as low as $96. With that said, a train that drops you off in downtown Miami (which is increasingly becoming a destination in an of itself) gives you direct access to metromover, metrorail and tri-rail. It's also not difficult to get from DT to South Beach. Getting from an airport or rail station isn't as difficult or expensive as you'd believe. Even in complete suburbia. I do it on a regular basis.
QuoteThis whole thing is a boondoggle for the train company to get tax payer funded improvements for their tracks.
I wouldn't call it a boondoggle because passenger rail isn't the only thing going on here. FECI will make tons of cash off shipping freight and real estate development around their stations. After all, that's how this state was basically developed in the first place.
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
OIA was always going to build their second terminal and intermodal station. It's their's, not AAF's. The recession and Rick Scott killing HSR delayed it. Nevertheless, we have decade old concepts of OIA's station floating around in our archives somewhere. I'll try and dig them up.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 02:38:15 AM
This article has to be sarcastic. If they are serious then I want what they are taking! When was the last time anyone considered taking a train anywhere? I'm not talking about Chicago/New York/Boston/SF commuter trains. I'm talking about a train from one Florida city to another Florida city. What do you do once you're at the destination city? Walk to where you need to go? How do you get to the train station to begin with? Drive your car?
This whole thing is a boondoggle for the train company to get tax payer funded improvements for their tracks.
That is currently the mentality in places like Florida, but as our metropolitan areas rebuild, infill and mature and more and more people move to the cities that will not be the mentality 30 years down the road. Overpopulation will start to make the train more attractive. Overpopulation is currently happening in Florida and we need to start planning for the future. It may be expensive and be met with huge opposition with people who have opinions like yours but it needs to happen eventually, why not plan for it now. Same reason Jax needs to plan for commuter rail that will be constructed maybe 20 to 30 years down the road. It is naïve to think current logic on transportation will be same decades from now as it is now.
There isn't any public funding for this project. They are using private activity bonds and other private financing. Nothing is backed by any federal or state agency. Crossings are being paid for by AAF even though the road owner is responsible for their maintenance. Why? They own the road that crosses private property.
The terminal at OIA was going to happen with or without AAF. They are not building a station for AAF, they are building it for all transportation. It's primarily a new parking deck for the airport, a new centralized car rental facility and a bus and and taxi terminal. No one gets to use it for free. Everyone pays, cars that park there, car rental companies that use it, buses and taxis that use it and AAF. They pay per train and per passenger that use the facility. Sunrail now also wants to use it as well.
People need to stop saying everyone won't use AAF because they won't use AAF. What do you do when you get to your destination? The same thing people do when they get to Orlando. Rent a car, get a cab, take a shuttle. Why do people think that if you own a car you're lost when you go somewhere without it?
^Good point. You move around from a train station the same way you do from an airport.
Btw, here's a graphic showing MCO's planned expansion. This one was terminated by 9/11 (way before the concept of AAF came alive):
(https://m2.behance.net/rendition/pm/4397507/hd/9c08208d44254aaaabba1c23555c1659.jpg)
Here's the 2010 master plan, when the high speed rail line between the airport and Tampa was being funded by Obama:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/High-Speed-Rail-Florida/OrlandoHSR-3/819131783_yhAgh-L.jpg)
Here's phase 1 of that plan, which is what AAF will be pulling into:
(http://ilikemike.me/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Orlando-Airport-Expansion-1.jpg)
As DanCio stated, it's pretty inaccurate to lump MCO's expansion costs as a public subsidy for AAF. They were planning to expand and include a intermodal terminal at their complex anyway.
Enterprise already offers daily rentals to biz travelers in metro areas. When I was in Seattle last year, I could walk to 3 rental places from the monorail or streetcar. One place was offering Toyota IQ's for $12/day. That beats cab fare if you need to reach a burb.
With new apps that can link your destination with your preferred travel means, options for transportation are going to grow.
Using multimodal hubs is a great way to integrate these mobility types.
AAF has to pay market rates to lease space in the new OIA transportation center. No different than any airline renting terminal gates.
No doubt, many in the transportation industry are watching AAF and its ability to succeed. Its a business model that cant be duplicated just anywhere. (Though a few are trying)
Quote from: DanCio on July 23, 2015, 08:30:20 AMWhy do people think that if you own a car you're lost when you go somewhere without it?
American Exceptionalism™ and ignorance of history. No matter how many examples you hold up, some people refuse to even consider other options. Something is utilized by most of the developed world? America could never do that, because we're so very special and different. Yet it's the ignorance that's truly astounding. I recently got into an argument with a man who claimed that rail would never succeed in Florida because geographically it's just too spread out. To hear him tell it Florida was founded by cars, for cars and that's how it will always be. "Cars today, cars tomorrow, cars forever!" I told him Henry Flagler might want a word.
Quote from: Crabernacle on July 23, 2015, 01:19:40 PM
Quote from: DanCio on July 23, 2015, 08:30:20 AMWhy do people think that if you own a car you're lost when you go somewhere without it?
American Exceptionalism™ and ignorance of history. No matter how many examples you hold up, some people refuse to even consider other options. Something is utilized by most of the developed world? America could never do that, because we're so very special and different. Yet it's the ignorance that's truly astounding. I recently got into an argument with a man who claimed that rail would never succeed in Florida because geographically it's just too spread out. To hear him tell it Florida was founded by cars, for cars and that's how it will always be. "Cars today, cars tomorrow, cars forever!" I told him Henry Flagler might want a word.
What people like that don't understand is how to look decades into the future and see what life would be like if we continued to depend solely on cars for transportation. It is not feasible to not have other alternatives if you look at the growth trends. Our highways an roadways will become gridlocked and the quality of life would suffer.
Quote from: Crabernacle on July 23, 2015, 01:19:40 PM
Quote from: DanCio on July 23, 2015, 08:30:20 AMWhy do people think that if you own a car you're lost when you go somewhere without it?
American Exceptionalism™ and ignorance of history. No matter how many examples you hold up, some people refuse to even consider other options. Something is utilized by most of the developed world? America could never do that, because we're so very special and different. Yet it's the ignorance that's truly astounding. I recently got into an argument with a man who claimed that rail would never succeed in Florida because geographically it's just too spread out. To hear him tell it Florida was founded by cars, for cars and that's how it will always be. "Cars today, cars tomorrow, cars forever!" I told him Henry Flagler might want a word.
Isn't Florida one of the densest states in the country?
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.
Quote from: jaxlore on July 23, 2015, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.
There's an existing bus and train system to service your needs. It only costs $63 to travel from Jax to Miami on the train. When was the last time you used this option?
What's the problem with these guys using their money? Seems the real complaints should be about billions of public dollars continuing to subsidize projects like the First Coast Expressway and Wekiva Parkway. Where's the outrage?
If you don't want to pay the fare, then drive, catch a bus or fly. If AAF fails, then that's Fortress and their investor's problem to deal with.
Quote from: stephendare on July 23, 2015, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: jaxlore on July 23, 2015, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.
There's an existing bus and train system to service your needs. It only costs $63 to travel from Jax to Miami on the train. When was the last time you used this option?
Last time I went to Miami, actually. Which was about two years ago. In the meantime my taxes have been spent to maintain a massive highway system for your use to drive down there.
Cool, at least you're walking the walk. I used the commuter train every day when I worked in Chicago because I sold my car when I moved up there in the late 90's. Also used the commuter trains in SF, Boston, New York while visiting and had fantastic experiences. It's a great thing for the right application.
Destroying communities on the east coast by ramming a bunch of freight trains to the tune of an additional 32 trains per day doesn't add up for Florida. Unfortunately the train companies have tied these track improvements to the cause of public transportation, effectively hoodwinking millions of well meaning folks that will support this illusion at any cost.
This is classic corporate bait and switch. Follow the money...
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 02:28:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 23, 2015, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: jaxlore on July 23, 2015, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.
There's an existing bus and train system to service your needs. It only costs $63 to travel from Jax to Miami on the train. When was the last time you used this option?
Last time I went to Miami, actually. Which was about two years ago. In the meantime my taxes have been spent to maintain a massive highway system for your use to drive down there.
Destroying communities on the east coast by ramming a bunch of freight trains to the tune of an additional 32 trains per day doesn't add up for Florida. Unfortunately the train companies have tied these track improvements to the cause of public transportation, effectively hoodwinking millions of well meaning folks that will support this illusion at any cost.
The trains and train tracks were there first, before the communities.
Quote from: stephendare on July 23, 2015, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
No. Just tired of paying for your highways and the entire tax monster that your preferred transportation has become for everyone in this country.
Exactly, Naldo, you have any idea how much this state spends on fixing highways and expanding them to accommodate the huge increases and projected increases in traffic volume? Billions just in NE Florida. How much are the 9B and I95 improvements costing the taxpayers of Florida? Granted they would probably happen anyway even with a good rail network in place but some highway spending could be scaled back. I'm all for it because I know that eventually it will be a necessity.
There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area). Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area). Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.
The All Aboard Florida boondoggle is from Miami to Orlando. Jax has no skin in the game except for having it's port completely bypassed as the cargo ships offload shipments in Miami and for CSX's bottom line. As Jax citizens we should want our port and our economy to grow, not Miami's. The big ships going through the upgraded Panama canal are going to be offloaded in Miami, while destroying coral reefs and making a mess of the environment down there with deep water dredging. We have little or no coral reefs up here so the dredging wouldn't be nearly as bad.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/ (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0)
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 04:08:52 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area). Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.
The All Aboard Florida boondoggle is from Miami to Orlando. Jax has no skin in the game except for having it's port completely bypassed as the cargo ships offload shipments in Miami and for CSX's bottom line. As Jax citizens we should want our port and our economy to grow, not Miami's. The big ships going through the upgraded Panama canal are going to be offloaded in Miami, while destroying coral reefs and making a mess of the environment down there with deep water dredging. We have little or no coral reefs up here so the dredging wouldn't be nearly as bad.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/ (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/02/150226-miami-biscayne-bay-florida-coral-dredging-channels-environment/)
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/08/us/despite-protections-miami-port-project-smothers-coral-reef-in-silt.html?_r=0)
Exactly how is AAF a boondoggle? The owners of the project have done their homework and are willing to spend $2-3 Billion of private money to build the system. PABs are only "subsidized" in the sense that the investors pay no taxes on their return on investment. You do know that PABs have been used for private manufacturers expanding their businesses to create more jobs as well as for lots of public works projects such as water/wastewater plants, roads, etc...
Here is a good rebuttal to opponents of PABs:
http://www.munibondsforamerica.org/new-york-times-rebuttal-private-activity-bonds-support-job-creation-economic-development/
RRIF loans must have a certain amount of equity held in escrow depending on the risk. AAF/FECI has said the amount of equity they would put in place would be substantial if they are awarded a RRIF loan.
I am also curious and would like to know why you completely ignore the many billions of dollars worth of boondoggle road projects in Florida - most built specifically to benefit developers and add to the suburban sprawl? AAF is a private project but it also serves a public need. Therefore it should be eligible for some "corporate welfare" as you call it. No one complains when Bass Pro sucks out millions of dollars from the communities it builds in. And Bass Pro has no direct public benefit! Here in Tampa, we gave Bass Pro over $7 million in transportation (read roadway) improvement money. That $7 million should have been invested in our public transit system here instead or at least for other roadway work that didn't benefit an individual business. At least AAF is putting up real money unlike so many other recipients of "corporate welfare".
And by the way, FECR could run twice the number of freight trains (more than required for any projected increase in port traffic, by the way) without having to do any improvements to their tracks. Sounds like you have been reading the FNAA and CARE talking points too much.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Disclaimer: I dont work for CSX or any other transportation entity.
Tax free PAB's are a Florida infrastructure investment tool
The biggest one in Florida is called the "Reedy Creek Improvement District". Otherwise known as Disneyworld.
A tool to facilitate infrastructure improvements that have a public accommodation. Those PAB's not only paid for the rides at Disney, but they pay for the supporting roads, sewage, water management and other capital intensive instruments to maintain the properties.
Those instruments are also used to build hospitals, schools, resorts and other large public related projects.
The RRIF is a large capital lending tool used by the US DOT for railroads due to the fact that historically banks dont like to lend large dollar for rail projects. Railroads have to provide all of the same financial instruments any type of loan requires. Collateral, Cash Flow, Credit Worthiness.
So the Feds would be on the hook only if the whole thing fails. Obviously they would want their money back and would foreclose and see the collateral sold off. So yes there is risk there. Just so you know, the largest US railroads use the RRIF all the time. UP, CSX, NS have all used the tool periodically.
While many have speculated how much the AAF trip will cost, they have not published a formal fare schedule yet. Also it is expected that AAF will be partnering with various tourism entities for ride inclusions as part of a vacation package.
Another tidbit is that most of the entities that have utilized the PAB tool offer Florida resident discounts as a courtesy thank you for the tax break. I suspect AAF will be no different and offer a similar discount.
Everyone gets a tax break. Your standard deduction on your 1040 is a tax break. The City of Jacksonville provides tax incentives. State of Florida provides tax incentives.
Corporate Welfare by definition would be an ongoing revenue redirection from a tax supplied coffer to support the operation of a private entity so it will survive.
What part of AAF do you see as welfare?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area). Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.
2 billion over 20+ years, maybe, if we ever see the 8-lane ultimate section, which we won't. And it'll be tolled by FTE, so its not completely paid for by tax payers, but by the users. We've been thru this before, come on.
Can't we have as many transportation options as necessary to balance needs? More AAF, more highways, more commuter rail, more Uber, more ports, etc? Why aren't we investing more in our infrastructure?
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 23, 2015, 07:15:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area). Both of these roads alone, cost something like $2 billion each to construct. It's hard to hear anyone complain about misuse of public funds when there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.
2 billion over 20+ years, maybe, if we ever see the 8-lane ultimate section, which we won't. And it'll be tolled by FTE, so its not completely paid for by tax payers, but by the users. We've been thru this before, come on.
Can't we have as many transportation options as necessary to balance needs? More AAF, more highways, more commuter rail, more Uber, more ports, etc? Why aren't we investing more in our infrastructure?
Yes, there needs to be balance. And that's the point, it's not balanced right now. There is too much emphasis on roadwork instead of other forms. Florida is actually a great state to have something like AAF. Several large cities relatively close, lots of tourists, growing urban populations and too much traffic.
Southsider, I'm actually a fan of tolls. However, the FCE's tolls aren't going to pay for it's capital cost. If we're lucky, they'll cover a portion of the highway's maintenance cost. With that said, I'm fine with highway projects that make sense. Just like I'm fine with transit projects, that don't make sense, being scrapped. As far as AAF goes, I have no complaints. They're funding it themselves. More power to Fortress. I hope they make a ton of cash off their investment.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 09:23:24 PM
Southsider, I'm actually a fan of tolls. However, the FCE's tolls aren't going to pay for it's capital cost. If we're lucky, they'll cover a portion of the highway's maintenance cost. With that said, I'm fine with highway projects that make sense. Just like I'm fine with transit projects, that don't make sense, being scrapped. As far as AAF goes, I have no complaints. They're funding it themselves. More power to Fortress. I hope they make a ton of cash off their investment.
Actually, if you think about it, no capital costs could technically be paid by the tolls, given that you have to pay to build it first before revenues can be gathered from them. So really, of course it makes sense that funds from tolls from a previously built toll road would be used to fund construction for a new toll road.
What's your source that explains that FTE toll revenues barely cover maintenance? I think it's a general assumption, rather than fact.
FCE makes sense for Clay County, the ONLY county in Florida without an Expressway. Have you met anyone from the Clay Chamber of Commerce?
My source? A few years back, I attended a meeting where Ananth Prasad said it. Btw, there are lots of counties in this state without expressways. Some examples include Taylor, Lafayette, Dixie, Gilcrist, Levy, Putnam, Hardee, Highlands, Glades, Henry, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 10:05:53 PM
My source? A few years back, I attended a meeting where Ananth Prasad said it. Btw, there are lots of counties in this state without expressways. Some examples include Taylor, Lafayette, Dixie, Gilcrist, Levy, Putnam, Hardee, Highlands, Glades, Henry, etc.
Sorry...Clay County is the LARGEST county in Florida without an Expressway. Not ONLY. I inadvertently skewed the fact just a tad.
I can't imagine Prasad making a public statement like that. My understanding is that FTE monies (and highway facilities) are seperate of FDOTs funds. I'm not sure, but I believe FTE is solvent, meaning that toll revenues are kept with FTE roadway facilities (construction and maintainenece). I don't know if this is true, but its my general understanding of how FTE is setup. Of course, FTE needed tax dollars to get started many a few decades ago.
Of course, if FDOT dollars are used to fund construction of FTE toll roads, then this is all a moot point.
You may not imagine but I've heard it from him and others on more than one occasion. Remember, I'm pretty familiar with the industry too! FTE's tolls won't cover the construction costs. I'm pretty sure about that. I doubt they cover the true cost of maintenance. However, they should not be expected too, just like no one should expect transit costs to be recovered 100% at the fare box.
QuoteI can't imagine Prasad making a public statement like that.
When I sat on the Florida Times Union Editorial Board, he mentioned it about three times during an interview. He also scoffed at the term 'Lexus Lane' about a half dozen times and really put on a good sales pitch against using sales tax revenue as a source to fund road construction... to which he equated to as taxing blue jeans to pay for roads (probably because local municipalities have more control over sales tax revenues, whereas toll revenue can be completely controlled by DOT entities ;) and less because of altrusitic reasons).
My company handles a large number of the P3 deals nationwide for toll roads... there is certainly more evidence than just
Quotegeneral assumption
, especially when it comes to new toll roads. Most of the best investment opportunities are when existing high traffic count roads are tolled. Most brand new toll roads, like the FCE, often fail miserably to collect the necessary toll revenue that were projected to make them finanicially feasible.
Is being the largest county without an expressway really taken as such a bad thing that they need to jump on the first chance to get one?
It's semantics. 295 is on the county line and the majority of Clay's population probably resides within 10 miles of it. The situation is certainly not like Panama City/Bay County. There, you have a city larger than all of Clay's, that's a major tourist destination with a port, airport, air force base and industry miles from I-10.
Quote from: southsider1015 on July 23, 2015, 09:55:24 PM
FCE makes sense for Clay County, the ONLY county in Florida without an Expressway. Have you met anyone from the Clay Chamber of Commerce?
perhaps you mean the largest county (in population) without an expressway....thanks for the booster talk
And speaking of SF highlighted earlier this week, it barely has limited access freeway in its city limits and is almost a million people. Vancouver is another city that functions without highways. Highways are *not* required to build a successful, thriving area that is in high demand and enjoyed by all.
Quote from: simms3 on July 24, 2015, 03:51:24 PM
And speaking of SF highlighted earlier this week, it barely has limited access freeway in its city limits and is almost a million people. Vancouver is another city that functions without highways. Highways are *not* required to build a successful, thriving area that is in high demand and enjoyed by all.
Vancouver is located in the coast, plus doesn't I-5 run north to it? A bit different than Green Cove Springs.
Anyway you look at it, Clay County has no access and no major industry or job provider. The hospital just opened up (thanks to SR 23), but what are the major job providers?
There those who'd like to see Clay County along the map, considering its access to St. Johns River, and its location to Jacksonville and St. Johns County.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 02:28:17 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 23, 2015, 01:52:47 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:50:07 PM
Quote from: jaxlore on July 23, 2015, 01:45:11 PM
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on July 23, 2015, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on July 23, 2015, 06:57:37 AM
It doesnt take much to see that a big part of this is to get tracks into Orlando, no surprise there. I'd like to see a breakdown of the amounts of private vs public money though. All I know for sure is that the OIA station will be built by the airport (public) but I think everything else is private with maybe some government backed loans. I don't think they would be building these huge TODs down south if they were looking for someone else to pay toimprove their trackage. FECI and its multiple subsidiaries are looking a a bunch of diversified revenue streams coming from this thing once it's complete.
They plan to float $1.75 billion in tax-exempt bonds. Tax free means that it's a tax payer subsidy, commonly known as corporate welfare. Then there's the $1.6 billion application for Railroad Rehabilitation Infrastructure Financing loans that is a direct loan from the U.S. government. That loan would leave the taxpayers on the hook. There are no profitable passenger train lines in North America. Guess who will pay for the track improvements once this scam falls apart? You will as a tax payer.
If they want to build a brand new rail line for high speed trains that would be great, however, they want to upgrade existing track and have trains travel over ancient bridges and crossings that will never be able to handle real high speed trains. These aren't real high speed trains they are planning on. It will shave barely any travel time off and the cost of the ticket will be much higher than the gas and car depreciation to just get in a car from Miami and travel to Disney World in Orlando. A family of four using the train? It will cost $720 round trip to goto Disney from Miami. I'm not sure if it makes any sense. A CEO traveling to Miami for a business trip on a public train? Not sure if that makes sense either. Who is the planned demographic? These are real questions that need to be asked and have legitimate answers before tax payers put up money.
I guess most of the posters here work for CSX?
Funny does this guy even look at this site? We are tired of same old transportation BS that's forced down our throats. I am tired I having to get in my car and pay for parking downtown just to go 5 miles. I would love to go to Orlando\Miami\etc and not have to get in a car or a plane.
There's an existing bus and train system to service your needs. It only costs $63 to travel from Jax to Miami on the train. When was the last time you used this option?
Last time I went to Miami, actually. Which was about two years ago. In the meantime my taxes have been spent to maintain a massive highway system for your use to drive down there.
Cool, at least you're walking the walk. I used the commuter train every day when I worked in Chicago because I sold my car when I moved up there in the late 90's. Also used the commuter trains in SF, Boston, New York while visiting and had fantastic experiences. It's a great thing for the right application.
Destroying communities on the east coast by ramming a bunch of freight trains to the tune of an additional 32 trains per day doesn't add up for Florida. Unfortunately the train companies have tied these track improvements to the cause of public transportation, effectively hoodwinking millions of well meaning folks that will support this illusion at any cost.
This is classic corporate bait and switch. Follow the money...
You do make a decent point here. If I were a resident of FL to be impacted by more trains, I personally would probably be a little up in arms over increased freight train traffic. Fortunately there is more oversight and public input for rail projects involving these types of railways because there is generally a lot at stake and railways have that unique position of being privately owned/managed public utilities. Having more freight rail traffic going by my house or in a path of daily commute for me would be a concern, especially if said freight traffic is known to carry toxic loads (even as "harmless" as coal and other fossil fuels).
That being said, few communities in this country are truly in a position where they can pick and choose and gripe about things such as this, and FL is not one of them, if it wants to continue to grow and prosper into such a community.
Few communities in this country are truly past the general stage of industrial growing pains and firmly and purely in the grasp of white collar growth and prosperity. FL is not one of these states. In fact, the urbanized west coast and DC-Boston corridor (with a few exceptions such as Baltimore and perhaps Philly, parts of Jersey) are the only parts of this country that can nitpick over this sort of stuff and not miss out on economic development. Like parts of western Europe and parts of Asia, these areas are the most advanced, developed parts of human civilization this world has. FL is definitely not part of that club.
I'm not saying roll over. Fight the fight. Make sure there are features in place to limit environmental damage or potential disasters, but frankly, all FL's got are its tourists and retirees. If AAF is a way to help properly urbanize and connect the state, but it requires putting up with more freight traffic, then it's a fairly small price to pay for incredible long term gains.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 23, 2015, 03:35:12 PM
There are many highway projects taxpayers subsidize that don't have to happen. Two that come to mind are the First Coast Expressway (Outer Beltway) and Wekiva Parkway (Orlando area).
there's complete silence concerning the amount of tax dollars being shelled out for projects like these two.
Well,there was relatively complete 'silence',lack of 'press' coverage for many years during key,pivotal events that would eventually formally authorize the First Coast Expressway and related development vesting.
Come On Aboard! now-'fees up
Brannon/ Chaffee Sector Plan (dang that stupid Slash; Stupid Is As Stupid Does 8) )
Per Clay County B/C Sector Plan Proceedings Transmittal to Tallahassee DCA; Future Railway Corridor. (A matter of Public Record, which should be easily accessed)
"Yea!!!"
Certainly placated a Clay Today "Reporter".
Considering that just off the top of my head I can think of at least 25-30 locales where 100-160 daily trains roar past, nearly all of these are freight trains thanks to Amtrak's myopic view of everything but the NEC. 30-50 daily freight and passenger trains on the FEC RY which will once again be all double tracked, is going to be a classic case of: "Much Ado About Nothing."
http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2015/08/05/all-aboard-florida-bonds-get-vote-today/
All Aboard Florida plans to market $1.75 billion in tax exempt bonds within the month following an unprecedented vote Wednesday empowering the private company to proceed with its express passenger rail project.
The 3-0 approval by the Florida Development Finance Corp. is a momentous step for the Miami to Orlando train, and followed five hours of ardent pleas from supporters and opponents of the plan.
More than 300 people from throughout South Florida, the Treasure and Space coasts, and Orlando attended the long-awaited meeting held in downtown Orlando, traveling by busload in the hope they could influence the board that held All Aboard Florida's fate.
The FDFC is a 5-member board, but one seat is vacant and member Kevin Hale was absent.
A successful sale of the the $1.75 billion in bonds, which will be marketed to accredited investors and institutional buyers at no risk to taxpayers, will mean All Aboard Florida can pay for its $2.5 billion project. It will also be able to pay off $450 million in high-risk bonds it sold last year to begin construction on the Miami to West Palm Beach leg.
"We're obviously very pleased with the outcome of the vote and see it as an affirmation of our project," said All Aboard Florida President Michael Reininger.
All Aboard Florida plans to run 32 passenger trains per day on the Florida East Coast Railway tracks, bisect historic neighborhoods and high-end communities from Miami to Cocoa. New tracks will be built between Cocoa and Orlando. Trains will stop in Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach between Miami and Orlando.
Statement by Brent Hanlon – CARE FL, treasurer and Jupiter resident.
"Despite the compelling, heartfelt, and hard hitting testimony from residents from the Treasure Coast and N. Palm Beach regions – the FDFC Board has voted as expected – approving an almost $1.8 billion tax-free windfall to All Aboard Florida.
"Treasure Coast local and state elected leaders urged the FDFC to learn more about the negative impacts of the proposed rail project before putting the safety, and financial wellbeing of Floridians at risk.
"Even more egregious is the U.S.DOT's issuance of the Final Environmental Impact Statement (FEIS), which will now lead us to the next stage of the battle for the rights of our communities."