Metro Jacksonville

QuoteIt looks as if a convention center might make the cut.

Mayor Lenny Curry can expect about a dozen recommendations about where to focus his economic-development efforts, and a "rough draft" list includes the project.

"The City needs to develop a plan to develop an expanded or new Convention Center," says the draft put together by former Mayor John Delaney.

Delaney chairs Curry's economic-development transition subcommittee, which met Monday.

He said after the meeting to expect the final draft of recommendations to include language that the city should create a plan to develop an expanded or new convention center.

"It needs to move up the priority list," he said.

He also repeated what he has said in previous meetings: Finding $200 million to $500 million to pay for a center will be the issue.

Another top priority will be the urban core.

"A solid Downtown needs to be a major focus," Delaney said.

Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545748

QuoteThe 18-member group also reviewed a separate presentation by member Aaron Zahn, president and CEO of BCR Environmental Corp.

Zahn created a report called "An Economic Development Strategy Framework" for the city.

He suggested the city consider branding itself as the "global leader in infrastructure innovation for the future," citing the possibilities of the $9 trillion expected to be spent worldwide by 2025 on capital projects and infrastructure.

"global leader in infrastructure innovation for the future"

What does that even mean?

Quote from: finehoe on July 07, 2015, 02:19:40 PM

QuoteThe 18-member group also reviewed a separate presentation by member Aaron Zahn, president and CEO of BCR Environmental Corp.

Zahn created a report called "An Economic Development Strategy Framework" for the city.

He suggested the city consider branding itself as the "global leader in infrastructure innovation for the future," citing the possibilities of the $9 trillion expected to be spent worldwide by 2025 on capital projects and infrastructure.

"global leader in infrastructure innovation for the future"

What does that even mean?

How exactly can Jax even begin to brand itself that way?  What innovative infrastructure do we have here?  This city seems to be 20 to 30 years behind anything "innovative" when discussing infrastructure.  Is he referring to the new highway projects?  That's not innovative when every other city of our size is discussing multi-modal transportation and reducing dependency on automobiles through urban infill development, etc.  Jax Port?  Or is he hoping something pops up?

It means CSX is based here and we want a bigger port.  ;)

A part of it is hoping for something different...

Hasn't this been on the "draft list" for the past 15+ years?

Isn't insanity defined by saying the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

$500m for a convention center seems a bit much. Stop shooting for the Cadillac solution here and trim the scope down.

If a riverfront town in Kentucky can start modest, so can we.

There have been other companies similar to Zahn's that have developed innovative and lower costs ways to deal with sewage and other infrastructure items here in Jacksonville (some with more success than others).

I've also read quite a few market forecasters who see a real future in pumps .. water, sewage, LNG ... i.e. GE's new facility in Jax. 

We all read articles on changing make up of utilities and the development of high speed internet, and the declining price point of launching low orbit satellites.  What most fail to realize is all of these require hardware and software in some instances to make it work. I think his point is that we have a future in manufacturing and technology in being a hub/innovator/manufacturer of the systems needed to revamp our country's infrastructure which is in dire need of maintenance and innovation.  And, when, you take two steps back .. his point really isn't a bad one.

You could have a much more affordable convention center/multi use facility that would cost a fraction of "500 million" bucks.

Lots of negative comments here. I'm excited to hear that the convention center is even part of this administration's conversation.

A new convention center on the old courthouse site would be great and it is very encouraging to hear that DT development is seen as highly important. That said, maybe get the projects on the table like the trio, landing, shipyards and healthy town funded before we take on totally new $200 million + projects. 

Is there a way to keep the tower portion of the annex for adaptive reuse purposes and the density it could provide while building a ground floor to the building that provides good street interaction (which is awful on the site) in conjunction with the courthouse site as a convention center complex? With the Hyatt's space already there, if that were a possibility, it is a great site. There is also potentially room to grow in the future at the Landing's parking lot.

I know this might be addressed on another thread, but should we even be talking about something as massive as a convention center being built on the old courthouse site? I say this because of the crumbling infrastructure and isn't the parking lot built over the river on bridges? It seems to me like a new convention center might be better placed elsewhere, and turn the old courthouse site into a smaller development, maybe even open up part of the parking lot into a small harbor with boat docks and riverside restaurants. I just wonder about the engineering feasibility of that location. Perhaps we should be putting other ideas on the table.

Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 08, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
A new convention center on the old courthouse site would be great and it is very encouraging to hear that DT development is seen as highly important. That said, maybe get the projects on the table like the trio, landing, shipyards and healthy town funded before we take on totally new $200 million + projects.

Agreed, the Trio should be priority number 1, not a $500 million convention center.  With it being left to decay it is a giant symbol of inactivity in Jacksonville's core for every visitor and investor to see.  When you see that building as desperate as it looks it does not leave a good impression of the city and it is right in the middle of everything.  At least the Barnett Building sort of looks occupied because it has windows, the trio doesn't even have windows, it's just a skeleton and such an important building to Jax.  Whether the interior spaces are highly functional or not, it must be restored and the city must realize it is probably going to have to help the developer out . . . a lot. 

Quote from: CCMjax on July 08, 2015, 08:27:18 AM

Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 08, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
A new convention center on the old courthouse site would be great and it is very encouraging to hear that DT development is seen as highly important. That said, maybe get the projects on the table like the trio, landing, shipyards and healthy town funded before we take on totally new $200 million + projects.

Agreed, the Trio should be priority number 1, not a $500 million convention center.  With it being left to decay it is a giant symbol of inactivity in Jacksonville's core for every visitor and investor to see.  When you see that building as desperate as it looks it does not leave a good impression of the city and it is right in the middle of everything.  At least the Barnett Building sort of looks occupied because it has windows, the trio doesn't even have windows, it's just a skeleton and such an important building to Jax.  Whether the interior spaces are highly functional or not, it must be restored and the city must realize it is probably going to have to help the developer out . . . a lot. 

+1000

Given the fact that the city is broke, and the price tag is VERY high, and there would be an operating deficit to cover as well, this idea needs to be dropped like a bad habit. This looks like the next 'silver bullet' idea that will only torpedo  the truly do-able projects, while not even breaking ground itself.

Quote from: finehoe on July 07, 2015, 02:19:40 PM

QuoteThe 18-member group also reviewed a separate presentation by member Aaron Zahn, president and CEO of BCR Environmental Corp.

Zahn created a report called "An Economic Development Strategy Framework" for the city.

He suggested the city consider branding itself as the "global leader in infrastructure innovation for the future," citing the possibilities of the $9 trillion expected to be spent worldwide by 2025 on capital projects and infrastructure.

"global leader in infrastructure innovation for the future"

What does that even mean?

Politicians Double speak for sure.

hmmm could the trio be the convention center vertical per say?

As a DT resident I want to see DT development as much as anyone.  BUT, COJ needs to get the public employee pension problem solved first because it severely impacts everything else in the budget and our bond rating which is critical for big capital projects.

QuoteAgreed, the Trio should be priority number 1, not a $500 million convention center.  With it being left to decay it is a giant symbol of inactivity in Jacksonville's core for every visitor and investor to see.  When you see that building as desperate as it looks it does not leave a good impression of the city and it is right in the middle of everything.  At least the Barnett Building sort of looks occupied because it has windows, the trio doesn't even have windows, it's just a skeleton and such an important building to Jax.  Whether the interior spaces are highly functional or not, it must be restored and the city must realize it is probably going to have to help the developer out . . . a lot.

The Trio? Its a dump compared to the jewel of the city, the river. Put the USS Adams at the Trio. Fix the Trio instead of the Shipyards. Put Healthy-town at the Trio. The Trio is off the river, hence off the table. You want to fix the Trio - get that guy Brown to build you a "public/private partnership" as he was so fond of saying.

The river is the jewel here and its time to start fixing some of the structures along it and have a place for visitors and residents to go that are ON the river.

QuoteThe river is the jewel here and its time to start fixing some of the structures along it and have a place for visitors and residents to go that are ON the river.

It's called the Jacksonville Landing. How did that work out? Granted, it had some strikes against it that didn't need to be there, (3 decade parking paradox), but simply putting one project on the river is not the be-all-end-all. 

There needs to be a DISTRICT of anchor projects, and the Trio is perfected suited and sited to be a primary one.  And time is running out. It is an eyesore and a negative now, but it could be the opposite.     

QuoteThere needs to be a DISTRICT of anchor projects, and the Trio is perfected suited and sited to be a primary one.  And time is running out. It is an eyesore and a negative now, but it could be the opposite.     

That is crazy talk. Look at the proposals, Shipyards - 500 million, Healthytown, 400 million, even the Landing at 75 million is a huge factor all on the river. Atkins just tainted the project by defaulting on the Barnett building. Others are going to follow along and find a new value where others have failed? The Trio is on life support, someone needs to get shovels going and soon.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be)

'Crazy' is thinking that any of those $100mm projects have a better chance of seeing the light of day than all the pie-in-the-sky proposals that came before them.

Atkins may or may not have been the right principal to complete the project, but anyone that knows what has worked elsewhere knows that it is a 'no-brainer' project that will cost a lot less than those others in terms of incentives and infrastructure.     

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 08, 2015, 10:21:29 AM

QuoteThere needs to be a DISTRICT of anchor projects, and the Trio is perfected suited and sited to be a primary one.  And time is running out. It is an eyesore and a negative now, but it could be the opposite.     

That is crazy talk. Look at the proposals, Shipyards - 500 million, Healthytown, 400 million, even the Landing at 75 million is a huge factor all on the river. Atkins just tainted the project by defaulting on the Barnett building. Others are going to follow along and find a new value where others have failed? The Trio is on life support, someone needs to get shovels going and soon.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be)

The reason I am saying the city should take care of the trio is because it is cheaper than the other huge developments and the city has no cash. River projects need to happen also, of course, but we shouldn't be talking $500 million for a convention center when we can't even fix some beautiful historic buildings on the best street in town (laura st.). Besides if we only focused on the river then the core would still be dead past Forsyth and that is just a ridiculous strategy for an active downtown. We have to work on the good bones of the city not just the flashy dress of the skyline.

LOL, what happened to the guys who were complaining the convention center wasn't being taken seriously enough?

Chicken and egg argument.

Sports tourism and convention center activity drive the need for hotel rooms.

Turning the trio into a high end hotel with nothing complimentary. You end up with another Robert Meyer.

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 08, 2015, 10:21:29 AM

QuoteThere needs to be a DISTRICT of anchor projects, and the Trio is perfected suited and sited to be a primary one.  And time is running out. It is an eyesore and a negative now, but it could be the opposite.     

That is crazy talk. Look at the proposals, Shipyards - 500 million, Healthytown, 400 million, even the Landing at 75 million is a huge factor all on the river. Atkins just tainted the project by defaulting on the Barnett building. Others are going to follow along and find a new value where others have failed? The Trio is on life support, someone needs to get shovels going and soon.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-oct-the-jacksonville-landing-what-should-it-be)

mtrain - Laura Street is the "Gateway to the River" that connects Hemming Plaza, City Hall, the Museum of Contemporary Art, the Library, the Bank of America building, the Wells Fargo building and the most historic block of large buildings in Jax right on up to the Landing and river.  It is a natural path connecting the heart of downtown with the river and could be a fantastic street if the changes are made.  Renovate the Laura Street Trio with the modern hotel/apartment attached which will cost the city far far less than this convention center.  Start with the "achievable" projects first.  The trio is definitely achievable without making the city bankrupt and the Landing could be redesigned and opened up with a little mixed use in there and it would still be far cheaper and probably more valuable than the convention center.

Also, one of the big problems with current convention center is that it is in the far west end of deader than dead La Villa and visitors and businessmen see this awful worn out vacated section of town and think "wow this is Jacksonville" . . . . . . buuuuuut . . . . . . . hopefully Brooklyn continues to shine bright and fill out to the point where developers become interested in the Water Street to Forsyth area of south La Villa with its proximity to DT and Brooklyn/Riverside.  If Water Street is developed the Prime Osborne may actually be a pretty cool spot until the funds are available for something on the river.  I agree that since we are the River City a major convention center should be on the river but with the pricetag I would say that it can wait and tackle other projects first, one's that will actually create tax revenue for the city.   

Quote from: jaxlore on July 08, 2015, 09:41:48 AM
hmmm could the trio be the convention center vertical per say?

No, convention centers typically need very large column-free horizontal spaces for huge showrooms and large gatherings.  All the convention centers I can think of are more horizontal than vertical even in the larger cities.  The trio I think is better suited for mixed use.

Quote from: spuwho on July 08, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
Chicken and egg argument.

Sports tourism and convention center activity drive the need for hotel rooms.

Turning the trio into a high end hotel with nothing complimentary. You end up with another Robert Meyer.

Pretty much! Look at the Hyatt as well. We have businesses (we've essentially subsidized already) struggling on West Bay Street because we haven't been able to make a decision on the future of the courthouse site in over 10 years now. Anyway, the funding from both would most likely have to come from two separate pots.

My suggestion for the convention center would be to start small by putting an exhibition hall with some ground level retail on the old courthouse block, between Bay and the deck that's falling into the river. Connect it to the Hyatt's ballroom level with a skywalk. That should not cost an arm and a leg.

In addition, before we drop one red cent on addressing that deck falling into the river, we should coordinate it's future and the amount spent with the planning and implementation of whatever is decided to go on the blocks around it.

As for the Trio, how are those plans impacted by the Barnett fallout? Are those two separate deals now?  If so, is a parking garage on West Forsyth really needed now or can the Trio's parking needs get by with the land, surface parking and existing garages already within a one-to-two block radius? If so, does this change the amount of money the city would need to contribute?

Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 08, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
A new convention center on the old courthouse site would be great and it is very encouraging to hear that DT development is seen as highly important. That said, maybe get the projects on the table like the trio, landing, shipyards and healthy town funded before we take on totally new $200 million + projects.

Exactly what Aundra Wallace says...

Quote from: brainstormer on July 08, 2015, 07:37:28 AM
I know this might be addressed on another thread, but should we even be talking about something as massive as a convention center being built on the old courthouse site? I say this because of the crumbling infrastructure and isn't the parking lot built over the river on bridges? It seems to me like a new convention center might be better placed elsewhere, and turn the old courthouse site into a smaller development, maybe even open up part of the parking lot into a small harbor with boat docks and riverside restaurants. I just wonder about the engineering feasibility of that location. Perhaps we should be putting other ideas on the table.

A convention center on the courthouse site will surely fill in most of the existing parking lot.  It's pretty shallow until you get well out toward the river.  I think it's an ideal location.

Quote from: spuwho on July 08, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
Chicken and egg argument.

Sports tourism and convention center activity drive the need for hotel rooms.

Turning the trio into a high end hotel with nothing complimentary. You end up with another Robert Meyer.

Business travel should be able to fill up a hotel in the Trio/Barnett (if a hotel was even the determined use) and the 'complimentary' is already there if all four buildings are done at the same time.  Courtyard by Marriott was already interested.  The Bostwick building restaurant would also provide some complimentary use.

The Hyatt is a huge behemoth that is geared to conventions that don't come.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2015, 12:44:34 PM

Quote from: spuwho on July 08, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
Chicken and egg argument.

Sports tourism and convention center activity drive the need for hotel rooms.

Turning the trio into a high end hotel with nothing complimentary. You end up with another Robert Meyer.

Pretty much! Look at the Hyatt as well. We have businesses (we've essentially subsidized already) struggling on West Bay Street because we haven't been able to make a decision on the future of the courthouse site in over 10 years now. Anyway, the funding from both would most likely have to come from two separate pots.

My suggestion for the convention center would be to start small by putting an exhibition hall with some ground level retail on the old courthouse block, between Bay and the deck that's falling into the river. Connect it to the Hyatt's ballroom level with a skywalk. That should not cost an arm and a leg.

In addition, before we drop one red cent on addressing that deck falling into the river, we should coordinate it's future and the amount spent with the planning and implementation of whatever is decided to go on the blocks around it.

absolutely.  Fixing Liberty, Coastline, and the parking lot is good money after bad.

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 08, 2015, 01:09:24 PM

Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 08, 2015, 01:07:41 AM
A new convention center on the old courthouse site would be great and it is very encouraging to hear that DT development is seen as highly important. That said, maybe get the projects on the table like the trio, landing, shipyards and healthy town funded before we take on totally new $200 million + projects.

Exactly what Aundra Wallace says...

To be honest, I'm not sure I'd subsidize Healthy Town or the Shipyards, outside of cleaning the property. Both are too far away from the core of downtown to have a significant impact on pedestrian scale vibrancy within this decade and probably the next. Placing too much focus in those areas only ensures that the core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025. If there is really a market for them, let them develop market rate. In both cases, it's not like the guys desiring to develop them need to live off the public teet.

With that said, we're going to have to learn how to chew gum and walk at the same time by getting a few complementing projects underway simultaneously. If places like Orlando, Sarasota and St. Petersburg can do this, Jacksonville should be able to as well.

except that Khan is saying he wants his development to go up all at once, and he has committed $500 million.  Add Berkman 2 to that (either finished or torn down) and the neighborhood begins to look like a logical extension to downtown.

Quote from: vicupstate on July 08, 2015, 01:16:18 PM

Quote from: spuwho on July 08, 2015, 12:08:31 PM
Chicken and egg argument.

Sports tourism and convention center activity drive the need for hotel rooms.

Turning the trio into a high end hotel with nothing complimentary. You end up with another Robert Meyer.

Business travel should be able to fill up a hotel in the Trio/Barnett (if a hotel was even the determined use) and the 'complimentary' is already there if all four buildings are done at the same time.  Courtyard by Marriott was already interested.  The Bostwick building restaurant would also provide some complimentary use.

The Hyatt is a huge behemoth that is geared to conventions that don't come.

The problem with the Hyatt and the Prime Osborn are the same. They are two complementing uses that should be feeding each other but can't properly because for some strange reason, we found away to develop them over a mile away from one another.  That's only fixed by moving one or subsidizing a completing use adjacent to the existing already subsidized use.

The Prime Osborn is also dead smack dab in the middle of the transportation center, which just received $21 million from Rick Scott to be constructed.  If we continue to ignore both, we're going to end up with a multimillion transportation center, we look back 10 years from now, and wonder why it doesn't work efficiently.

The answer here is a simple one. To get a few of these projects off paper, money will need to be spread out and some of the grand plans for individual sites will have to be toned down to the reality of the market that truly exists.  So when it comes to a convention center, instead of the $500 million bells and whistles, you may have to settle for a $50 to $100 million no-frills exhibition hall that simply feeds visitors into the Hyatt, Bay Street businesses and vise versa.  Even if it only books small trade shows, the people visiting those trade shows are walking past Marks, Olio, the Landing, etc. instead of dirt lots next to the I-95 interchange. 

When it comes to the Landing, maybe you don't spend money demolishing the bridge ramps and buildings. Instead, you spend half as much retrofitting the existing site and upgrading the open spaces surrounding it.

When it comes to the Trio, maybe we can't immediately fund another multi-story garage structure with public money.  Maybe we have to incrementally get started by better configuring and utilizing existing parking lots or bundling parking deals with nearby garages.

In other words, we can get there, but it may mean every project toning dreams and visions down a notch.

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 08, 2015, 01:26:42 PM
except that Khan is saying he wants his development to go up all at once, and he has committed $500 million.  Add Berkman 2 to that (either finished or torn down) and the neighborhood begins to look like a logical extension to downtown.

Yeah, that's baloney. Kahn isn't developing the Shipyards at once. There's no market for it.  He'd be out of millions and half those buildings on that pie-in-the-sky plan would be sitting empty. From what I can tell, signs point to him being a master site developer, not the actual developer of the individual uses shown in the renderings.  In other words, we'd pay to put some streets in and parcel out the site. Then his investment company would attempt to get some other developer like Sleiman to come in and spend their money building some retail or a developer like Vestcor to build some apartments. Neither of those guys are going to spend their money immediately, if there's no real market for their product. So, what you'd end up with is something like this until the market can incrementally support infill development:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4112689865_c4btFcx-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4112689282_Mmstdf4-L.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2015, 01:36:45 PM
The problem with the Hyatt and the Prime Osborn are the same. They are two complementing uses that should be feeding each other but can't properly because for some strange reason, we found away to develop them over a mile away from one another. 

I'd guess that strange reason was because the "right people" didn't own the land.

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 08, 2015, 01:26:42 PM
Add Berkman 2 to that (either finished or torn down) and the neighborhood begins to look like a logical extension to downtown.

Think project scale and position of property in relation to the rest of downtown. Factor those things in and you're easily looking at a +20 year development timeline, assuming the economy remains good. From a public perception and vibrancy standpoint, you can achieve a lot more with a lot less investment by getting a 10-to-15 square block area in your core right. On top of this, getting that core spot right doesn't negatively impact the development timeline of the thing on the fringe. In fact, it more than likely improves it.

It may be baloney, but Lamping is saying it out loud.  I think their role model is Jeff Vinick. 

Sales pitch. They all sound good.

I just sat in one yesterday in Honolulu for some heavily discounted tour tickets to use the rest of the week. The sales pitch sounded great. Sign up for a vacation "membership"...."not a timeshare" (just like Costco or Sams!) for $10k upfront (or $200/month) and enjoy cheap hotel/condo rooms to Rome, Tahiti, etc. for the rest of your life! Thanks, but no thanks. Now give me my tickets for my hour lost sitting here! I'll happily pay cash for a trip I know I'm going to take as opposed to having another monthly bill.

All of that to say, sales pitch. If you want something, you show a pretty picture and pull out all the bells and whistles to sell your vision. If you come out and present reality from the start, you might not get what you want because most who don't understand the market don't want to wait 20 years.

Regarding Vinick, how much money is he asking from Tampa? How does it compare to the Shipyard's request?  Then when it comes to market comparison of these two sites, there is no comparison.  Vinick's land is already in the middle of it all. Streetcar, Channelside, Florida Aquarium, the convention center, a riverwalk, thousands of residents in the Channel District and Harbour Island are already there. Different market for the products being proposed, so they're timelines shouldn't be compared directly.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2015, 01:45:39 PM

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 08, 2015, 01:26:42 PM
except that Khan is saying he wants his development to go up all at once, and he has committed $500 million.  Add Berkman 2 to that (either finished or torn down) and the neighborhood begins to look like a logical extension to downtown.

Yeah, that's baloney. Kahn isn't developing the Shipyards at once. There's no market for it.  He'd be out of millions and half those buildings on that pie-in-the-sky plan would be sitting empty. From what I can tell, signs point to him being a master site developer, not the actual developer of the individual uses shown in the renderings.  In other words, we'd pay to put some streets in and parcel out the site. Then his investment company would attempt to get some other developer like Sleiman to come in and spend their money building some retail or a developer like Vestcor to build some apartments. Neither of those guys are going to spend their money immediately, if there's no real market for their product. So, what you'd end up with is something like this until the market can incrementally support infill development:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4112689865_c4btFcx-L.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4112689282_Mmstdf4-L.jpg)

This sounds correct.  You were just in San Francisco.  Perhaps you checked out Lennar Urban's development down at Hunters Point.  It's a much larger project with 12K homes, 3.6 million sf office, and almost a million sf of retail, amongst other community amenities and components, but it's being done by a master developer with a very very complex legal structure and the ability for Lennar to partner with other developers on the vertical components, and the city profit participates on the horizontal piece.

Contrast with Brooklyn Point, which is almost *exactly* like the Shipyards in scale and in proposal.  That's being horizontally and vertically developed by a team almost all at once with Chinese money backing...again this is the Bay Area, not Jax.

Both development styles being done, but Jax is a small town that can't take down anything large.  No foreign interest or knowledge, weak job market, relatively slow growth given circumstances (coastal FL city).  Khan and his team, as well as the city and all potential players (any local developers like Vestcor or Sleiman), need to go out and meet with all of the players in all of the Hunters Point developments going up in cities around the country (I think there are only a few such examples...reason being these are such large and complex endeavors).

Quote from: simms3 on July 08, 2015, 02:17:01 PM
Khan and his team, as well as the city and all potential players (any local developers like Vestcor or Sleiman), need to go out and meet with all of the players in all of the Hunters Point developments going up in cities around the country (I think there are only a few such examples...reason being these are such large and complex endeavors).

Here's one in DC, about half the acreage of the shipyards:  http://www.wharfdc.com/

I'm in and out of town quite often.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Honolulu/i-rZHxzXm/0/L/P1740821-L.jpg)

Right now, all I can see from my hotel balcony and hear from my bed is construction. They're all over......except in places where the market isn't there yet. We can get there as well. But first, we'll have to take care of some issues we've been debating for over a decade.

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

The truth hurts but this poster is right on the money.  :(

Believe it or not Mtrain, there are cities all over the country that have more than one hotel in their Downtown.  Historic hotels are quite popular and successful in many of them also.

We all know DT JAX is dead, the whole point is how to bring it back to life. If simply being on the river was the key to success, the Hyatt would not have been struggling for it's entire existence.     

Courtyard by Marriott was already lined up to go the LST but the project never gotten financed.  They had no problem with the location.

QuoteThis is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core.

Do you realize that this is the polar opposite of what is happening in just about every other city in the country?

Quote from: vicupstate on July 09, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
Believe it or not Mtrain, there are cities all over the country that have more than one hotel in their Downtown.  Historic hotels are quite popular and successful in many of them also.

We all know DT JAX is dead, the whole point is how to bring it back to life. If simply being on the river was the key to success, the Hyatt would not have been struggling for it's entire existence.     

Courtyard by Marriott was already lined up to go the LST but the project never gotten financed.  They had no problem with the location.

QuoteThis is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core.

Do you realize that this is the polar opposite of what is happening in just about every other city in the country?

"Courtyard by Marriott was already lined up to go the LST but the project never gotten financed." This is the same song that always seems to be played in Jacksonville Florida. :( Unless it's the City of Jacksonville giving the Jaguars everything they want?

Quote from: vicupstate on July 09, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
Do you realize that this is the polar opposite of what is happening in just about every other city in the country?

Which makes it all the more disturbing that we can't seem to get it to happen here.

Quote from: finehoe on July 09, 2015, 11:05:58 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on July 09, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
Do you realize that this is the polar opposite of what is happening in just about every other city in the country?

Which makes it all the more disturbing that we can't seem to get it to happen here.

I blame the Good Old Boys that still seem to run this city? Peyton, Haskell, Gay etc etc etc.

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 11:10:43 AM

Quote from: finehoe on July 09, 2015, 11:05:58 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on July 09, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
Do you realize that this is the polar opposite of what is happening in just about every other city in the country?

Which makes it all the more disturbing that we can't seem to get it to happen here.

I blame the Good Old Boys that still seem to run this city? Peyton, Haskell, Gay etc etc etc.

For what? Not spending enough? Preventing others from investing?

Quote from: downtownbrown on July 09, 2015, 11:13:34 AM

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 11:10:43 AM

Quote from: finehoe on July 09, 2015, 11:05:58 AM

Quote from: vicupstate on July 09, 2015, 10:31:42 AM
Do you realize that this is the polar opposite of what is happening in just about every other city in the country?

Which makes it all the more disturbing that we can't seem to get it to happen here.

I blame the Good Old Boys that still seem to run this city? Peyton, Haskell, Gay etc etc etc.

For what? Not spending enough? Preventing others from investing?

CONTROL & POWER!

Alvin certainly wasn't a "Good Old Boy", so it may be time to put that thought to rest. The main problems we've had is spreading the money invested too thin, and not investing enough in the simple not-so-sexy items (parks, streets, transit, bike connectivity, landscaping, etc.). Thus, invested money and projects have not been able to build upon one another. Jax is really no different from any other average America city enjoying a downtown renaissance. We just tend to make the process more difficult by ignoring and overlooking the obvious issues.  One could argue, the convention center problem is one of those overlooked and continually ignored issues.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 09, 2015, 11:35:21 AM
Alvin certainly wasn't a "Good Old Boy", so it may be time to put that thought to rest. The main problems we've had is spreading the money invested too thin, and not investing enough in the simple not-so-sexy items (parks, streets, transit, bike connectivity, landscaping, etc.). Thus, invested money and projects have not been able to build upon one another. Jax is really no different from any other average America city enjoying a downtown renaissance. We just tend to make the process more difficult by ignoring and overlooking the obvious issues.  One could argue, the convention center problem is one of those overlooked and continually ignored issues.

True.  We conceptually swing for the fences, but actually get bogged down in bureaucracy.  It is an open question whether or not a vital market can be created by government. It's about risk takers selling their inventions to the public market.  If Jax builds it, nobody knows if they will come. Seems like we would rather sit around and wait for a White Knight than get serious about momentum.

Jax shouldn't build it. It should do like several other second and third tier markets. Build an environment that people generally enjoy and want to be in. Have the best parks, lit streets, lush landscaping, interactive public spaces that are well integrated with the land uses surrounding them, good multimodal infrastructure that novices will even use, etc. Less worrying about 2k residents and condos at the Shipyards, Healthy Town, etc. and more on making sure the lawn is mowed consistently.  With that said, there are still going to be a few key projects that public assistance will be needed to help jump start. However, those should be well positioned and coordinated with the investment in not-so-sexy items.

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM
This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

This downtown resident somewhat begs to differ!

So the other day, some folks were upset that the convention center wasn't being prioritized by Curry's team. Now folks are upset that it has been prioritized. Y'all too funny.

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

Wow.

First of all, you clearly don't travel because hotels also have points systems.  Right now there is no Marriott downtown.  If there is, all of those who prefer Marriott and earn points with them will stay.  It's like an airline, get it?  Many people do have multiple accounts (I have Starwood, Marriott, Kimpton, and Hyatt).

A boutique Marriott, like an Autograph in a restored building like the Adagio I put my Marriotts Rewards parents up in here in SF right in the Theater District, is certainly preferred over some shitty massive convention hotel like the Hyatt in DT Jax.  I'm not the only one who feels that way, and Hyatt in DT Jax is a dime a dozen.  Where Mickey Mouse hoodie wearing families go and large business group travelers.  Even if LST turns into a Courtyard - I guarantee there is a whole slew of people who prefer an intimate, clean Courtyard with a boutiquey feel to that ugly POS we have on the river.


RE: your other comments.  Wow.

Let's all quit dreaming now!  Forget our own dreams!  Forget the dreams of others! Geez, what a miserable miserable way to even think!!


And do you not realize that in EVERY city more people choose to live in the burbs than in a downtown?  Even Manhattan can only fit so many people...most people moving to NYC move to Queens, or the burbs out in LI, CT, NJ, further up NY.  Same with Chicago...that city puts up 10 towers a year to house thousands of new people downtown, but still more people moving to Chicago don't choose to live in a high rise downtown.  But you would never know that if logic fails you and you visit, seeing that massive skyline and all that construction.

DT Jax would be no different.  It would be a world first if all of a sudden more people chose to live in the urban core over the burbs, here in Jax.  Nobody is thinking that will happen.  What people want is just some people to want to live in the urban core.  And we know there is some demand, but THERE ARE NO HOUSING OPTIONS!  When there are housing options, they do fill up.  Perhaps not in record time at record pricing like you have out in San Francisco, but they do fill up, they do make developers/investors happy, generally, and having more and more of these options WILL BE THE ONLY WAY JAX CAN REMAIN COMPETITIVE since MY generation wants these options and we are YOUR future!

You are on the wrong board...you need to join like an Avondale Housing Watch or neighborhood association so you can block all future new restaurants, judge your neighbors' home renovations and tell them what they need to change to get your approval, and oppose any and all new housing developments that will "increase traffic" in your neighborhood.  Not sure if Avondale is your neighborhood or not...but this board will only frustrate you.  Go there...and join such a group.  You'll fit right in and find your true life's calling.  ;)

^speaking of demand, anyone know how Brooklyn is doing?

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

Mtrain- 

First, what do you propose they do with the LST?  Tear it down and pave it over with another surface lot?  Or just leave it there in its current state for another 20 years?  Both would be gigantic mistakes and a failure to capitalize on an architectural gem, and Jacksonville doesn't have many of those because it's been tearing them down for the last half century and building hideous monstrosities on the river like the Hyatt or just leaving the properties bare.  I actually think more greenspace is needed along the river so people can enjoy it in more ways than just from a hotel room.  And don't underestimate the value renovated historical buildings bring to cities.  They aren't always the most profitable in terms of quick cash return but they are links to the past, provide substance to neighborhoods and sections of DT, show the culture and maturity of a city and gives citizens something to be proud of.  It must be saved and it must include a mix of uses.  In New Orleans, do you go to the French Quarter because it's on the river?  No, you go to party, see the historical buildings and enjoy the vibrant streets.  The river is great but it is not the only thing that New Orleans and Jacksonville can offer. 

Second, light rail is only a topic right now because Jacksonville needs to start planning for it.  It will eventually be here just not in the next decade or so, because it will eventually have to.  What you are saying is the same thing the people of Charlotte, Orlando, Tampa and countless other cities were saying about two decades ago when those cities were almost identical to what Jacksonville is now.  Dead downtowns and only suburban style growth and people just excepted that's the way it was there.  But things changed in those cities and they will too here but like everyone on this board understands, it always seems to happen in Jax about 20 years after it happens everywhere else.

Third . . . .  I don't remember what my third point was but maybe it will come back to me.

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 12:27:43 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

Wow.

First of all, you clearly don't travel because hotels also have points systems.  Right now there is no Marriott downtown.  If there is, all of those who prefer Marriott and earn points with them will stay.  It's like an airline, get it?  Many people do have multiple accounts (I have Starwood, Marriott, Kimpton, and Hyatt).

A boutique Marriott, like an Autograph in a restored building like the Adagio I put my Marriotts Rewards parents up in here in SF right in the Theater District, is certainly preferred over some shitty massive convention hotel like the Hyatt in DT Jax.  I'm not the only one who feels that way, and Hyatt in DT Jax is a dime a dozen.  Where Mickey Mouse hoodie wearing families go and large business group travelers.  Even if LST turns into a Courtyard - I guarantee there is a whole slew of people who prefer an intimate, clean Courtyard with a boutiquey feel to that ugly POS we have on the river.


RE: your other comments.  Wow.

Let's all quit dreaming now!  Forget our own dreams!  Forget the dreams of others! Geez, what a miserable miserable way to even think!!


And do you not realize that in EVERY city more people choose to live in the burbs than in a downtown?  Even Manhattan can only fit so many people...most people moving to NYC move to Queens, or the burbs out in LI, CT, NJ, further up NY.  Same with Chicago...that city puts up 10 towers a year to house thousands of new people downtown, but still more people moving to Chicago don't choose to live in a high rise downtown.  But you would never know that if logic fails you and you visit, seeing that massive skyline and all that construction.

DT Jax would be no different.  It would be a world first if all of a sudden more people chose to live in the urban core over the burbs, here in Jax.  Nobody is thinking that will happen.  What people want is just some people to want to live in the urban core.  And we know there is some demand, but THERE ARE NO HOUSING OPTIONS!  When there are housing options, they do fill up.  Perhaps not in record time at record pricing like you have out in San Francisco, but they do fill up, they do make developers/investors happy, generally, and having more and more of these options WILL BE THE ONLY WAY JAX CAN REMAIN COMPETITIVE since MY generation wants these options and we are YOUR future!

You are on the wrong board...you need to join like an Avondale Housing Watch or neighborhood association so you can block all future new restaurants, judge your neighbors' home renovations and tell them what they need to change to get your approval, and oppose any and all new housing developments that will "increase traffic" in your neighborhood.  Not sure if Avondale is your neighborhood or not...but this board will only frustrate you.  Go there...and join such a group.  You'll fit right in and find your true life's calling.  ;)

+10000!
I was just typing up a rant that basically said the same thing! We need people without vision to step out of the way. That is why this city is so far behind.

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 12:27:43 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

Wow.

First of all, you clearly don't travel because hotels also have points systems.  Right now there is no Marriott downtown.  If there is, all of those who prefer Marriott and earn points with them will stay.  It's like an airline, get it?  Many people do have multiple accounts (I have Starwood, Marriott, Kimpton, and Hyatt).

A boutique Marriott, like an Autograph in a restored building like the Adagio I put my Marriotts Rewards parents up in here in SF right in the Theater District, is certainly preferred over some shitty massive convention hotel like the Hyatt in DT Jax.  I'm not the only one who feels that way, and Hyatt in DT Jax is a dime a dozen.  Where Mickey Mouse hoodie wearing families go and large business group travelers.  Even if LST turns into a Courtyard - I guarantee there is a whole slew of people who prefer an intimate, clean Courtyard with a boutiquey feel to that ugly POS we have on the river.


RE: your other comments.  Wow.

Let's all quit dreaming now!  Forget our own dreams!  Forget the dreams of others! Geez, what a miserable miserable way to even think!!


And do you not realize that in EVERY city more people choose to live in the burbs than in a downtown?  Even Manhattan can only fit so many people...most people moving to NYC move to Queens, or the burbs out in LI, CT, NJ, further up NY.  Same with Chicago...that city puts up 10 towers a year to house thousands of new people downtown, but still more people moving to Chicago don't choose to live in a high rise downtown.  But you would never know that if logic fails you and you visit, seeing that massive skyline and all that construction.

DT Jax would be no different.  It would be a world first if all of a sudden more people chose to live in the urban core over the burbs, here in Jax.  Nobody is thinking that will happen.  What people want is just some people to want to live in the urban core.  And we know there is some demand, but THERE ARE NO HOUSING OPTIONS!  When there are housing options, they do fill up.  Perhaps not in record time at record pricing like you have out in San Francisco, but they do fill up, they do make developers/investors happy, generally, and having more and more of these options WILL BE THE ONLY WAY JAX CAN REMAIN COMPETITIVE since MY generation wants these options and we are YOUR future!

You are on the wrong board...you need to join like an Avondale Housing Watch or neighborhood association so you can block all future new restaurants, judge your neighbors' home renovations and tell them what they need to change to get your approval, and oppose any and all new housing developments that will "increase traffic" in your neighborhood.  Not sure if Avondale is your neighborhood or not...but this board will only frustrate you.  Go there...and join such a group.  You'll fit right in and find your true life's calling.  ;)

^ +1000000000000000000.  Mtrain - The point of this board is to discuss what should be done to change the direction of Jacksonville so that it doesn't get worse, not to just state the obvious about what's going on right now.

Funny I didn't say Alvin did I? I will say having the condo & apartments in the downtown area is a good start. But unless you live in them most people leave downtown after work. And don't return unless to eat at over priced restaurants or go to a used bookstore. It's time for the Miracle Worker Curry to bring us all the promise land.  ;)

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
Funny I didn't say Alvin did I? I will say having the condo & apartments in the downtown area is a good start. But unless you live in them most people leave downtown after work. And don't return unless to eat at over priced restaurants or go to a used bookstore. It's time for the Miracle Worker Curry to bring us all the promise land.  ;)

Gosh how do all those other cities manage?

What in your opinion are the overpriced restaurants?  In my opinion, Olive Garden is overpriced.  What is it $12-15 for an entree of defrosted food that I can buy in a box in the grocery for $8-10?

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 10:29:50 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

The truth hurts but this poster is right on the money.  :(

We are a Sanctuary Downtown!
DIA- Downtown Is Adrift

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 01:27:19 PM

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
Funny I didn't say Alvin did I? I will say having the condo & apartments in the downtown area is a good start. But unless you live in them most people leave downtown after work. And don't return unless to eat at over priced restaurants or go to a used bookstore. It's time for the Miracle Worker Curry to bring us all the promise land.  ;)

Gosh how do all those other cities manage?

What in your opinion are the overpriced restaurants?  In my opinion, Olive Garden is overpriced.  What is it $12-15 for an entree of defrosted food that I can buy in a box in the grocery for $8-10?

I was speaking about downtown Restaurants? Like the La Cena Ristorante on N. Laura St, Candy Apple Cafe, Benny's Steak & Seafood, and others. The Candy Apple Cafe & Benny's Steak & Seafood is fine for lunch but not to return for dinner IMO.

I understand what many want with a brand new convention center in DT; however, this would be a horrible time to go that route. One of the problems cited by visitors to Prime Osborn is that there was little access to hotels, restaurants, and things to do around the area. Placing a Convention Center on the site of the old courthouse won't be much better. Until the powers that be can get their ducks in a row about downtown development, we should not set ourselves up for failure in a place (i.e. the old courthouse) which would not please visitors and cause them to criticize our city. I know many are going to hate this, but the only serious option in competing with the current market on conventions is placing a convention center near the town center. There are enough hotels, restaurants, and things to do in that area to show visitors that there are actually things to do in this city.

Quote from: JagsnStuff on July 09, 2015, 03:32:54 PM
I understand what many want with a brand new convention center in DT; however, this would be a horrible time to go that route. One of the problems cited by visitors to Prime Osborn is that there was little access to hotels, restaurants, and things to do around the area. Placing a Convention Center on the site of the old courthouse won't be much better. Until the powers that be can get their ducks in a row about downtown development, we should not set ourselves up for failure in a place (i.e. the old courthouse) which would not please visitors and cause them to criticize our city. I know many are going to hate this, but the only serious option in competing with the current market on conventions is placing a convention center near the town center. There are enough hotels, restaurants, and things to do in that area to show visitors that there are actually things to do in this city.

There is nowhere on the southside that would have enough hotel rooms for a decent convention within walking distance to a convention center.  There are a number of rooms in the area, but you'd still have to drive or use hotel shuttles from hotels up to 5 miles away.  If the hotel went in at the convention center, there are currently 3 large hotels you could walk to and another 4 that are accessible by skyway.  Nowhere in the southside can claim that.

The problem with the southside is that everyone loses perspective on how far apart things actually are.  Things over there are "near" each other, but all of the attractions are at least a mile to two miles apart.  My friends who lived off Kernan would often say they moved there to be "near" everything.  They were central, but they couldn't go anywhere without driving 3-5 miles.  I may be far from the beach, but I can walk to the square in 15 minutes and my possibilities within 3 miles are endless.

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 03:06:03 PM

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 01:27:19 PM

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
Funny I didn't say Alvin did I? I will say having the condo & apartments in the downtown area is a good start. But unless you live in them most people leave downtown after work. And don't return unless to eat at over priced restaurants or go to a used bookstore. It's time for the Miracle Worker Curry to bring us all the promise land.  ;)

Gosh how do all those other cities manage?

What in your opinion are the overpriced restaurants?  In my opinion, Olive Garden is overpriced.  What is it $12-15 for an entree of defrosted food that I can buy in a box in the grocery for $8-10?

I was speaking about downtown Restaurants? Like the La Cena Ristorante on N. Laura St, Candy Apple Cafe, Benny's Steak & Seafood, and others. The Candy Apple Cafe & Benny's Steak & Seafood is fine for lunch but not to return for dinner IMO.

My comment about Olive Garden went right over your head...of course there is no Olive Garden downtown.

Let me digest the rest of your reply.

So one of the only legitimate Italian restaurants in all of NE FL, universally known as an expensive restaurant by all going in, is a "typical overpriced downtown restaurant?"  I guess Olive Garden it is...$12-15 for defrosted food that can be bought in a box at the store for $8-10.  Or Johnny Carino's.  Romano's?  Buca di Bepo?  Carraba's?  Maggiano's?  Spaghetti Factory?

By the way...I just looked up the menu (bc it's been a while)...$25-35 for entrees and $9-15 for starters for quality home-cooked Italian food in a small/intimate restaurant with good service and decades long reputation (and same chef all along...no matter how crazy he is, he has earned a name locally).  And by the way, the portions are HUGE and you will take home your next two lunches.  This might be the best Italian in town.  You call that unreasonable?!?!  Please go back to your mobile home in Middleburg...

Listen.  Every downtown in America typically has higher prices for food (or for anything).  Similar to why your corner bodega/Walgreens charges 20-30% more for the same staples you can find in a massive supermarket.  I'm pretty sure a footlong Subway in SF's financial district costs $8 or so while it costs $6-7 elsewhere.  A pack of cigarettes in the financial district/Union Square can cost up to $12-15 or more whereas in my neighborhood it costs $7 (not that I'm a smoker...only when drinking).  A 750 mL bottle of Belvedere in a club costs $500 whereas it costs $35-40 in some stores.

If things *weren't* overpriced, at all, in DT Jax, that would mean there is no visitor/worker crush, at all, and that wouldn't be good, at all.  I still have a hard time believing anything in DT Jax is really all that "overpriced", though.

A place by the name of Benny's Steak & Seafood just sounds terrible.  I doubt you could pay me to eat at a place like that.  But I guarantee you every other strip mall in suburban Jacksonville has an exact copy of this restaurant.  So just don't go~!  What makes this one "overpriced" compared to the hundreds of other copies?

I swear, you and so many other posters that crawl out of the woodwork in Jacksonville...you only continue the stereotype.  And if you don't know what I'm talking about, don't worry about it.  If you do, wear your stereotypes with honor I guess.


Recently there have been threads/discussions on places, and cheap places in particular, to eat in downtown Jax.  Clearly there is a dearth all the way around due to lack of workers/visitors/residents, but there are places (dozens in fact, that you didn't list out).  Maybe research a bit.  This forum often disputes me, proves me wrong, and then points me in the right direction for when I come into town.  You live there!  Do better...

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 09, 2015, 03:43:06 PM

Quote from: JagsnStuff on July 09, 2015, 03:32:54 PM
I understand what many want with a brand new convention center in DT; however, this would be a horrible time to go that route. One of the problems cited by visitors to Prime Osborn is that there was little access to hotels, restaurants, and things to do around the area. Placing a Convention Center on the site of the old courthouse won't be much better. Until the powers that be can get their ducks in a row about downtown development, we should not set ourselves up for failure in a place (i.e. the old courthouse) which would not please visitors and cause them to criticize our city. I know many are going to hate this, but the only serious option in competing with the current market on conventions is placing a convention center near the town center. There are enough hotels, restaurants, and things to do in that area to show visitors that there are actually things to do in this city.

There is nowhere on the southside that would have enough hotel rooms for a decent convention within walking distance to a convention center.  There are a number of rooms in the area, but you'd still have to drive or use hotel shuttles from hotels up to 5 miles away.  If the hotel went in at the convention center, there are currently 3 large hotels you could walk to and another 4 that are accessible by skyway.  Nowhere in the southside can claim that.

The problem with the southside is that everyone loses perspective on how far apart things actually are.  Things over there are "near" each other, but all of the attractions are at least a mile to two miles apart.  My friends who lived off Kernan would often say they moved there to be "near" everything.  They were central, but they couldn't go anywhere without driving 3-5 miles.  I may be far from the beach, but I can walk to the square in 15 minutes and my possibilities within 3 miles are endless.

Exactly.  Spoken like someone who doesn't go to conventions (technically neither do I, but I see how these things work).  Orlando and Vegas aside, and frankly McCormick in Chicago, too, most cities try to put their convention centers around touristy things and around visitor amenities that can be walked to or easily/cheaply cabbed to.

Not that Jax is a cab/walking city, but at least downtown a tourist can walk along the river, there are restaurants within walking distance, a few bars, the highest concentration of hotels (all technically within walking distance...truly), and other venues (arena, stadium, other hotels with conference rooms, offices, etc).

Putting a cc on the SS means we are requiring visitors and conventioneers to all rent cars, which is a huge expense.  Shuttles only go so far.  And for visitors, there really isn't much on the SS at all.

It's really telling when people actually think that the SJTC and area is some huge attraction for most visitors who are in town for business/conventions.  Let's not rationalize by equating the demand of the SJTC by visitors in from Waycross GA or Lake City.  Let's think more along the lines of people who work in Austin TX or Minneapolis or Seattle or Boston or NYC.  None of those folks want to be stuck out in the pine forests of the SS "near" a local mall with a few restaurants the locals think are so awesome but compared to an avg restaraunt in other cities are pretty bad.

Quote from: JagsnStuff on July 09, 2015, 03:32:54 PM
I understand what many want with a brand new convention center in DT; however, this would be a horrible time to go that route. One of the problems cited by visitors to Prime Osborn is that there was little access to hotels, restaurants, and things to do around the area. Placing a Convention Center on the site of the old courthouse won't be much better. Until the powers that be can get their ducks in a row about downtown development, we should not set ourselves up for failure in a place (i.e. the old courthouse) which would not please visitors and cause them to criticize our city. I know many are going to hate this, but the only serious option in competing with the current market on conventions is placing a convention center near the town center. There are enough hotels, restaurants, and things to do in that area to show visitors that there are actually things to do in this city.

The Town Center is not a cultural center, it is a glorified shopping mall in the middle of suburbia with insane traffic issues.  And the other poster is right, everything in that area is centrally located within the southeastern metropolitan area, but miles away from anything unique.  A major convention center should be in the cultural center of a city, or close IMO.  Give the Brooklyn developments a few years and the Prime Osborne's location may actually not be that bad.  I said this before, I think Water Street is the next area to be developed after Brooklyn is tapped out.  It might be a decade or so but it is a good spot and close to Brooklyn and downtown.

I'm not saying the convention center should forever be at that location but eventually I think it will be an attractive area.  I see it being a museum of some sort with attached Amtrak/transportation center eventually down the road when a new convention center is built.

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 04:11:07 PM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 09, 2015, 03:43:06 PM

Quote from: JagsnStuff on July 09, 2015, 03:32:54 PM
I understand what many want with a brand new convention center in DT; however, this would be a horrible time to go that route. One of the problems cited by visitors to Prime Osborn is that there was little access to hotels, restaurants, and things to do around the area. Placing a Convention Center on the site of the old courthouse won't be much better. Until the powers that be can get their ducks in a row about downtown development, we should not set ourselves up for failure in a place (i.e. the old courthouse) which would not please visitors and cause them to criticize our city. I know many are going to hate this, but the only serious option in competing with the current market on conventions is placing a convention center near the town center. There are enough hotels, restaurants, and things to do in that area to show visitors that there are actually things to do in this city.

There is nowhere on the southside that would have enough hotel rooms for a decent convention within walking distance to a convention center.  There are a number of rooms in the area, but you'd still have to drive or use hotel shuttles from hotels up to 5 miles away.  If the hotel went in at the convention center, there are currently 3 large hotels you could walk to and another 4 that are accessible by skyway.  Nowhere in the southside can claim that.

The problem with the southside is that everyone loses perspective on how far apart things actually are.  Things over there are "near" each other, but all of the attractions are at least a mile to two miles apart.  My friends who lived off Kernan would often say they moved there to be "near" everything.  They were central, but they couldn't go anywhere without driving 3-5 miles.  I may be far from the beach, but I can walk to the square in 15 minutes and my possibilities within 3 miles are endless.

Exactly.  Spoken like someone who doesn't go to conventions (technically neither do I, but I see how these things work).  Orlando and Vegas aside, and frankly McCormick in Chicago, too, most cities try to put their convention centers around touristy things and around visitor amenities that can be walked to or easily/cheaply cabbed to.

Not that Jax is a cab/walking city, but at least downtown a tourist can walk along the river, there are restaurants within walking distance, a few bars, the highest concentration of hotels (all technically within walking distance...truly), and other venues (arena, stadium, other hotels with conference rooms, offices, etc).

Putting a cc on the SS means we are requiring visitors and conventioneers to all rent cars, which is a huge expense.  Shuttles only go so far.  And for visitors, there really isn't much on the SS at all.

It's really telling when people actually think that the SJTC and area is some huge attraction for most visitors who are in town for business/conventions.  Let's not rationalize by equating the demand of the SJTC by visitors in from Waycross GA or Lake City.  Let's think more along the lines of people who work in Austin TX or Minneapolis or Seattle or Boston or NYC.  None of those folks want to be stuck out in the pine forests of the SS "near" a local mall with a few restaurants the locals think are so awesome but compared to an avg restaraunt in other cities are pretty bad.

Ha ha, you nailed it!  In fact every post I read of yours pretty much nails it.

I want to drive home the point you made, PEOPLE FROM REAL CITIES ARE NOT IMPRESSED BY THE SJ TOWN CENTER!  And those are typically the people coming in for conventions.  Most would say, "Christ, what the hell am I doing at a freakin mall?  What am I supposed to do here?  Go to Nordstrom's?  I thought I was here on a business trip and to absorb some local culture."

Well, I agree. However, the Orange County Convention Center was in the most suburban place possible, and it is by far the most popular destination for conventions in the country and the largest. I know Disney is there, that area has slightly urbanized, and it is apples to oranges, but it is not anywhere near their urban center.

I can say that when Jacksonville hosted a cheerleading competition at the Arena, there was a traffic jam of rented minivans trying to get out to SJTC during the afternoon break.

So it does have value. If the same options were downtown then I am sure they would have walked there.

The mistake I see in alot of these posts is that they assume everyone approaches travel like they do.

Its true some people want an "experience" but some people have work to get done. Especially after sitting in a convention hall all day.

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on July 09, 2015, 04:49:30 PM
Well, I agree. However, the Orange County Convention Center was in the most suburban place possible, and it is by far the most popular destination for conventions in the country and the largest. I know Disney is there, that area has slightly urbanized, and it is apples to oranges, but it is not anywhere near their urban center.

Correct.  Orlando is absolutely not apples to apples at all.  Neither is Las Vegas.  I don't understand how some people can conflate Jax for Orlando.  A convention held in Orlando won't come to Jax anyway.  Orlando hosts *really really* large conventions, some going for weeks at a time.  So it is a plus to be near all the attractions Orlando offers, like I Drive, Disney, Universal, etc.

Quote from: spuwho on July 09, 2015, 04:50:34 PM
I can say that when Jacksonville hosted a cheerleading competition at the Arena, there was a traffic jam of rented minivans trying to get out to SJTC during the afternoon break.

So it does have value. If the same options were downtown then I am sure they would have walked there.

The mistake I see in alot of these posts is that they assume everyone approaches travel like they do.

Its true some people want an "experience" but some people have work to get done. Especially after sitting in a convention hall all day.

Also, one cheerleading convention should not be the litmus test for what is needed for Jacksonville's convention center.  Not to mention you point out that the cheerleading thing is at the arena.  Are you saying we should have built the arena out by SJTC?  That's the only conclusion I can draw from your mentioning of that event.

Now here's where the "snob" in me is going to come out.  I don't want no stinkin cheerleading competitions in Jax!  I want conventions revolving around industry.  And industry conventions won't result in a traffic jam of Chrysler Town N Country minivans hauling ass to get to Cheesecake Factory at the Town Center.  Industry conventions are likely to have participants who do often/largely travel like I do.

I get it...Sheena and her daughter Tracy, both in from Valdosta, are enamored with "the Big City of Jax" and the awesome "Town Center".  Frank who is gay and lives in Midtown Omaha and works at Berkshire or ConAgra doesn't give two flying fucks (and DT Omaha puts DT Jax to shame by the way).  Let alone Jenn who grew up in small town CA and went to college at Berkeley but now lives in Houston or Raleigh.  She ain't coming to Jax to shop or dine at Maggiano's.

Sadly, yes, in cities like Jax the Capital Grille is a take out after work kind of place and it happens to be at SJTC, not downtown, like it is in other peer cities like Charlotte, but there is a Ruth's Chris downtown and a new steakhouse opening!

In regards to "but most of us need to work afterward".  That I can relate to.  I'm having a slow week and posting like crazy, but generally I'm constantly working.  The last thing I want is to spend time in a car to get from one destination to the next in travels...it's *always* better staying downtown.  Downtown also has the highest concentration of offices.  MOre likely that your company's local office is within walking distance of a DT cc than the SS.

Plus, when you do get finished working, much easier to meet people down for drinks somewhere if you're all downtown as opposed to somewhere in the burbs.

Americans do love their shopping.  I'm always flabbergasted when I see tour buses unloading their charges at the local mall.

"Let's go buy something at this Ann Taylor that's just like the one we have at home!"

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 05:08:03 PM
I want conventions revolving around industry.

Not industry, "infrastructure innovation for the future."   ::)

As much as I hate the idea of a convention center at the Town Center, how much you want to bet that's what ends up happening?  "Well, we have to follow the market trends."

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 03:56:19 PM

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 03:06:03 PM

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 01:27:19 PM

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 09, 2015, 01:09:44 PM
Funny I didn't say Alvin did I? I will say having the condo & apartments in the downtown area is a good start. But unless you live in them most people leave downtown after work. And don't return unless to eat at over priced restaurants or go to a used bookstore. It's time for the Miracle Worker Curry to bring us all the promise land.  ;)

Gosh how do all those other cities manage?

What in your opinion are the overpriced restaurants?  In my opinion, Olive Garden is overpriced.  What is it $12-15 for an entree of defrosted food that I can buy in a box in the grocery for $8-10?

I was speaking about downtown Restaurants? Like the La Cena Ristorante on N. Laura St, Candy Apple Cafe, Benny's Steak & Seafood, and others. The Candy Apple Cafe & Benny's Steak & Seafood is fine for lunch but not to return for dinner IMO.

My comment about Olive Garden went right over your head...of course there is no Olive Garden downtown.

Let me digest the rest of your reply.

So one of the only legitimate Italian restaurants in all of NE FL, universally known as an expensive restaurant by all going in, is a "typical overpriced downtown restaurant?"  I guess Olive Garden it is...$12-15 for defrosted food that can be bought in a box at the store for $8-10.  Or Johnny Carino's.  Romano's?  Buca di Bepo?  Carraba's?  Maggiano's?  Spaghetti Factory?

By the way...I just looked up the menu (bc it's been a while)...$25-35 for entrees and $9-15 for starters for quality home-cooked Italian food in a small/intimate restaurant with good service and decades long reputation (and same chef all along...no matter how crazy he is, he has earned a name locally).  And by the way, the portions are HUGE and you will take home your next two lunches.  This might be the best Italian in town.  You call that unreasonable?!?!  Please go back to your mobile home in Middleburg...

Listen.  Every downtown in America typically has higher prices for food (or for anything).  Similar to why your corner bodega/Walgreens charges 20-30% more for the same staples you can find in a massive supermarket.  I'm pretty sure a footlong Subway in SF's financial district costs $8 or so while it costs $6-7 elsewhere.  A pack of cigarettes in the financial district/Union Square can cost up to $12-15 or more whereas in my neighborhood it costs $7 (not that I'm a smoker...only when drinking).  A 750 mL bottle of Belvedere in a club costs $500 whereas it costs $35-40 in some stores.

If things *weren't* overpriced, at all, in DT Jax, that would mean there is no visitor/worker crush, at all, and that wouldn't be good, at all.  I still have a hard time believing anything in DT Jax is really all that "overpriced", though.

A place by the name of Benny's Steak & Seafood just sounds terrible.  I doubt you could pay me to eat at a place like that.  But I guarantee you every other strip mall in suburban Jacksonville has an exact copy of this restaurant.  So just don't go~!  What makes this one "overpriced" compared to the hundreds of other copies?

I swear, you and so many other posters that crawl out of the woodwork in Jacksonville...you only continue the stereotype.  And if you don't know what I'm talking about, don't worry about it.  If you do, wear your stereotypes with honor I guess.


Recently there have been threads/discussions on places, and cheap places in particular, to eat in downtown Jax.  Clearly there is a dearth all the way around due to lack of workers/visitors/residents, but there are places (dozens in fact, that you didn't list out).  Maybe research a bit.  This forum often disputes me, proves me wrong, and then points me in the right direction for when I come into town.  You live there!  Do better...

"Please go back to your mobile home in Middleburg..." Boy what a real tool you must be. Downtown will Never be what it once was. And I can live with this. So while I grill my steaks on the Ortega river tonight I will raise my glass in the air wishing you were with me so I could pour it on your head.  8)

Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2015, 06:18:26 PM

Quote from: CCMjax on July 09, 2015, 05:55:59 PM
As much as I hate the idea of a convention center at the Town Center, how much you want to bet that's what ends up happening?  "Well, we have to follow the market trends."

There are no market trends.  We just do not have a convention destination base of any kind in jacksonville. 

We used to. 

When we had thirty more hotels downtown, and all the nightlife and action you could find in any city outside of New Orleans.

But building a convention center, paradoxically helped to destroy the convention business in jacksonville.  The money needed to fund the convention center took booking fees away from the hotels, and when caterers negotiated exclusivity contracts with the Convention Center (the old Colliseum) they took much needed food and beverage sales away from the hotels.

This helped to start closing the medium range hotels and without their customers, the downtown began to suffer.

By the time Jake Godbold decided to resurrect the old Train Terminal as a "Convention Center", conventions were swiftly becoming a thing of the past.

The final nail in the coffin was put into the business when the City gave SMG the management contract for the 'convention center', a firm based in Philadelphia, with a plethora of other clients and city offerings to offer their stable of customers.

We finally worked our way down to Cheerleading conventions (with no real push behind them to help them grow into something significant from the city's auspices) and the quality of life literally being dynamited out of the ground by the various downtown redevelopment agencies.

Convention Centers have become the all present snake oil products of the professional 'consultant' class.

They are really only a way to stimulate the sales of the local contractors/builders for a few years and then they are a huge albatross around the neck of the city.

Heck, even Muncie Indiana build the Horizon Center, in hopes of a brave new future in conventioneering.

Convention Cities work when they are heavily invested in entertainment and quality of life (we have a 2 million dollar total budget to eke out across the county), when they have a diverse micro economy of venues, hotels, entertainment offerings, a service obsessed downtown environment, and most importantly when their development is driven by a strong local group whose fortunes are based on hotels/hospitality.

Traditionally, this was done by the chamber of commerce.  When Conventions flocked to Jacksonville, they did so because every one who was a member of the Jacksonville Chamber was an agent of the industry.  If you went to a convention in another city, the chamber expected you to find out who organized the convention and pitch them Jacksonville as the location.

That is not what is going on here, and building a convention center is simply a big fat porkbarrel deal to pay back wealthy Builder Association political allies.

Successful convention cities grow from conventions to larger facilities, not the other way around.

When Theresa Price was the director of City Events we looked at a few ways to jumpstart this process.  There are easy, effective, and downright fun ways to attract conventions that will grow into something significant back to Jacksonville, and it would be a blast to implement them.  But none of them involve having to spend 200 million on a new center with no prospective clients asking for one to be built.

"That is not what is going on here, and building a convention center is simply a big fat porkbarrel deal to pay back wealthy Builder Association political allies." OMG Stephendare here is where I agree with you 100%. Not that you care. ::) But this is what Curry is going to be doing for this first couple of years in office. Paying back all the favors & money that was given to him to win the Mayor's office isn't politics great. :o

Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2015, 06:18:26 PM

Quote from: CCMjax on July 09, 2015, 05:55:59 PM
As much as I hate the idea of a convention center at the Town Center, how much you want to bet that's what ends up happening?  "Well, we have to follow the market trends."

There are no market trends.  We just do not have a convention destination base of any kind in jacksonville. 

We used to. 

When we had thirty more hotels downtown, and all the nightlife and action you could find in any city outside of New Orleans.

But building a convention center, paradoxically helped to destroy the convention business in jacksonville.  The money needed to fund the convention center took booking fees away from the hotels, and when caterers negotiated exclusivity contracts with the Convention Center (the old Colliseum) they took much needed food and beverage sales away from the hotels.

This helped to start closing the medium range hotels and without their customers, the downtown began to suffer.

By the time Jake Godbold decided to resurrect the old Train Terminal as a "Convention Center", conventions were swiftly becoming a thing of the past.

The final nail in the coffin was put into the business when the City gave SMG the management contract for the 'convention center', a firm based in Philadelphia, with a plethora of other clients and city offerings to offer their stable of customers.

We finally worked our way down to Cheerleading conventions (with no real push behind them to help them grow into something significant from the city's auspices) and the quality of life literally being dynamited out of the ground by the various downtown redevelopment agencies.

Convention Centers have become the all present snake oil products of the professional 'consultant' class.

They are really only a way to stimulate the sales of the local contractors/builders for a few years and then they are a huge albatross around the neck of the city.

Heck, even Muncie Indiana build the Horizon Center, in hopes of a brave new future in conventioneering.

Convention Cities work when they are heavily invested in entertainment and quality of life (we have a 2 million dollar total budget to eke out across the county), when they have a diverse micro economy of venues, hotels, entertainment offerings, a service obsessed downtown environment, and most importantly when their development is driven by a strong local group whose fortunes are based on hotels/hospitality.

Traditionally, this was done by the chamber of commerce.  When Conventions flocked to Jacksonville, they did so because every one who was a member of the Jacksonville Chamber was an agent of the industry.  If you went to a convention in another city, the chamber expected you to find out who organized the convention and pitch them Jacksonville as the location.

That is not what is going on here, and building a convention center is simply a big fat porkbarrel deal to pay back wealthy Builder Association political allies.

Successful convention cities grow from conventions to larger facilities, not the other way around.

This is all so true (and thanks for the history) and with downtown's riverfront setting and mild year round climate, it could easily be a very service-oriented downtown.  But nobody seems to see it that way.  The entertainment focus is all on the SS for some reason and there is no real drive or momentum to create real nightlife districts, really anywhere.

A CC on the courthouse site would never be all that large, just large enough to get decent conventions to town.  And it would be connected to rooms and convenient to amenities, office space, and entertainment.  Would be a start and could never be considered a facility trying to grow a convention city.  I wouldn't even be opposed to a new construction somewhere else...just have a real plan and vision and implement.

Getting visitors and conventioneers into the city seems like an easier feat at this point than getting residents and more office workers.  And I think if enough visitors/conventioneers see downtown and are impressed enough by it, it could just translate to more office workers and more residents.  Plus the amount of residents/office workers we would like downtown in the next 5 years would cost so much in incentives anyway that it's probably no more to just build a better CC and have that constant people flow that could naturally attract residents/workers.

When you refer to Builder Association political allies, I am assuming you're referring to general contractors and other groups that do construction work?  Couldn't the city/mayor avoid a potential kickbacks or pay for play allegation by awarding a contract to an outside team, if they were serious about building a CC?

To cities the lure of the convention business has long been the prospect of visitors emptying their wallets on meals, lodging, and entertainment, helping to rejuvenate ailing downtowns.

However, an examination of the convention business and city and state spending on host venues finds that:

The overall convention marketplace is declining in a manner that suggests that a recovery or turnaround is unlikely to yield much increased business for any given community, contrary to repeated industry projections. Currently, overall attendance at the 200 largest tradeshow events languishes at 1993 levels.
Nonetheless, localities, sometimes with state assistance, have continued a type of arms race with competing cities to host these events, investing massive amounts of capital in new convention center construction and expansion of existing facilities. Over the past decade alone, public capital spending on convention centers has doubled to $2.4 billion annually, increasing convention space by over 50 percent since 1990. Nationwide, 44 new or expanded convention centers are now in planning or construction.
Faced with increased competition, many cities spend more money on additional convention amenities, like publicly-financed hotels to serve as convention "headquarters." Another competitive response has been to offer deep discounts to tradeshow groups. Despite dedicated taxes to pay off the public bonds issued to build convention centers, many—including Washington, D.C and St. Louis—operate at a loss.
This analysis should give local leaders pause as they consider calls for ever more public investment into the convention business, while weighing simultaneously where else scarce public funds could be spent to boost the urban economy.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2005/01/01cities-sanders

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on July 09, 2015, 04:49:30 PM
Well, I agree. However, the Orange County Convention Center was in the most suburban place possible, and it is by far the most popular destination for conventions in the country and the largest. I know Disney is there, that area has slightly urbanized, and it is apples to oranges, but it is not anywhere near their urban center.

Technically, I-Drive is more walkable and vibrant than DT Jax. There's also more to do there for tourist within walking distance than there is to do in DT Orlando....

Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2015, 04:22:38 PM

Quote from: UNFurbanist on July 09, 2015, 01:01:16 PM

Quote from: simms3 on July 09, 2015, 12:27:43 PM

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2015, 09:43:27 AM

Quotethe core of the city will be still be fairly dead in 2025.

The core of the city is dead, most of you cannot see it. Adding a hotel to the LST, whaat? What business traveler wants to go there, versus the HYatt on the river? The Hyatt is stripping all the rooms down to the core and rebuilding them all, so even if the Marriott comes in the next decade, Hyatt will already have made a presence downtown with the businesses and Visit Jax. There is nothing around the LST, unless Eddie and Chuck want to put up their clients there instead of the Gator Lodge.

Forget what happens in other cities, it does not happen here. MetroJax has been dreaming for years of light rail, where is it? still a dream. Jax is not Orlando or Miami or Tampa or San Fran, but it is sprawl and growth in the burbs, as compared to downtown. Downtown is already dead.

You can use the oft provided http://www.esri.com/data/esri_data/ziptapestry or  http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/florida/jacksonville/ and see what is in 32202 right now, what its median income is, the type of person in the area. This is what is here right now, meanwhile the exodus continues away from the core, more and more people are choosing to live further away from the downtown core. Why? Because there is nothing in the core right now, and no matter the number of Healthy Towns or Shipyards or Berkmans, they don't fix the continuing issue that downtown is nowheresville.

Wow.

First of all, you clearly don't travel because hotels also have points systems.  Right now there is no Marriott downtown.  If there is, all of those who prefer Marriott and earn points with them will stay.  It's like an airline, get it?  Many people do have multiple accounts (I have Starwood, Marriott, Kimpton, and Hyatt).

A boutique Marriott, like an Autograph in a restored building like the Adagio I put my Marriotts Rewards parents up in here in SF right in the Theater District, is certainly preferred over some shitty massive convention hotel like the Hyatt in DT Jax.  I'm not the only one who feels that way, and Hyatt in DT Jax is a dime a dozen.  Where Mickey Mouse hoodie wearing families go and large business group travelers.  Even if LST turns into a Courtyard - I guarantee there is a whole slew of people who prefer an intimate, clean Courtyard with a boutiquey feel to that ugly POS we have on the river.


RE: your other comments.  Wow.

Let's all quit dreaming now!  Forget our own dreams!  Forget the dreams of others! Geez, what a miserable miserable way to even think!!


And do you not realize that in EVERY city more people choose to live in the burbs than in a downtown?  Even Manhattan can only fit so many people...most people moving to NYC move to Queens, or the burbs out in LI, CT, NJ, further up NY.  Same with Chicago...that city puts up 10 towers a year to house thousands of new people downtown, but still more people moving to Chicago don't choose to live in a high rise downtown.  But you would never know that if logic fails you and you visit, seeing that massive skyline and all that construction.

DT Jax would be no different.  It would be a world first if all of a sudden more people chose to live in the urban core over the burbs, here in Jax.  Nobody is thinking that will happen.  What people want is just some people to want to live in the urban core.  And we know there is some demand, but THERE ARE NO HOUSING OPTIONS!  When there are housing options, they do fill up.  Perhaps not in record time at record pricing like you have out in San Francisco, but they do fill up, they do make developers/investors happy, generally, and having more and more of these options WILL BE THE ONLY WAY JAX CAN REMAIN COMPETITIVE since MY generation wants these options and we are YOUR future!

You are on the wrong board...you need to join like an Avondale Housing Watch or neighborhood association so you can block all future new restaurants, judge your neighbors' home renovations and tell them what they need to change to get your approval, and oppose any and all new housing developments that will "increase traffic" in your neighborhood.  Not sure if Avondale is your neighborhood or not...but this board will only frustrate you.  Go there...and join such a group.  You'll fit right in and find your true life's calling.  ;)

+10000!
I was just typing up a rant that basically said the same thing! We need people without vision to step out of the way. That is why this city is so far behind.

And lucky for us we have about 7 of them on metrojacksonville daily.

(And lucky for us we have about 7 of them on metrojacksonville daily.) Your Welcome StephenDare I can see with your great knowledge how much has happen to Downtown Jacksonville since you have arrived here. Please keep up your positive attitude and keep clicking your heels together "There's No Place Like Downtown Jacksonville Florida"  ::)

For those of you who claim Jax will never have a market for conventions, there's already one. We're already in the business. Like our parks, schools and public transit, it's just substandard and one of several black eyes for a DT everyone claims they want to see turned around. 

No one is making a push for a mega sized space, catered to a market we'll never compete in.  So let's stop talking about Orlando's, Vegas and Chicago when we're getting our asses kicked by Huntsville and Mobile. Instead, we should apply a bit a common sense to the situation in order to place existing complementing uses in a setting where they can actually be utilized more efficiently and help generate a cluster of activity that creates a small pocket for support uses. 

At the end of the day, building an exhibition hall right next to our existing subsidized convention center hotel/ballroom, accomplishes a few key things for downtown.......even if it only results in the same amount of conventions already taking place at the PO:

1. Frees up the old grand passenger rail terminal to become.....a passenger rail terminal and multimodal transportation center.

2. Replaces a dead block (old courthouse site) with a new mixed use modern exhibition hall.....attached to a convention center hotel.

3. Any type of activity generated at that exhibition hall (even the PO generates activity occasionally), creates foot traffic around Bay Street and Jax Landing businesses.... Heck, maybe the old steakhouse spot in the Hyatt could gain a new tenant by the increased foot traffic.

4. Just adding an exhibition box in an area where complementing uses already exists, drops the price to build significantly.

5. Locating that box within walking distance of complementing uses (ex. Florida Theatre, Hyatt, Jax Landing, Elbow clubs and restaurants, etc.) means you don't have to subsidize the same type of uses in a location where they don't already exist.

Replacing the old courthouse with a CC makes a lot of sense in the world. Especially, if we want to see places like Marks, Olio, etc. survive and new restaurants/bars in the vacant spaces adjacent to them.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 09, 2015, 10:07:54 PM

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on July 09, 2015, 04:49:30 PM
Well, I agree. However, the Orange County Convention Center was in the most suburban place possible, and it is by far the most popular destination for conventions in the country and the largest. I know Disney is there, that area has slightly urbanized, and it is apples to oranges, but it is not anywhere near their urban center.

Technically, I-Drive is more walkable and vibrant than DT Jax. There's also more to do there for tourist within walking distance than there is to do in DT Orlando....

Now there is and they have made it more walkable. However, even 10 years ago, nevermind when it was built, that was not the case. It was just near the theme parks.

I am all for a CC at the courthouse site. Lake, what would you like to see done with the annex though?

Quote from: spuwho on July 09, 2015, 04:50:34 PM

The mistake I see in alot of these posts is that they assume everyone approaches travel like they do.

Its true some people want an "experience" but some people have work to get done. Especially after sitting in a convention hall all day.

I think you're right. There's not one "correct" answer - but I suppose we have to ensure that whatever approach we take, we do it right.

Quote from: Adam White on July 10, 2015, 07:28:30 AM

Quote from: spuwho on July 09, 2015, 04:50:34 PM

The mistake I see in alot of these posts is that they assume everyone approaches travel like they do.

Its true some people want an "experience" but some people have work to get done. Especially after sitting in a convention hall all day.

I think you're right. There's not one "correct" answer - but I suppose we have to ensure that whatever approach we take, we do it right.

When has anything been done right and even under budget in Jacksonville Florida? The Main Library wasn't done right, the city Garage next to the Library on E Duval St was to have a bridge between both buildings but that was canceled. Because the city felt the shoppes on the first floor of the parking Garage wouldn't be used? I see Enterprise is using one of the shoppes but when this garage was first built the stores Never came to pass. And the new Court House was this done right & the state attorneys building how many problems does this old building still have after being redone. The list of doing things right is very short in Jacksonville. Please lets all think good thoughts and click those heels together once more like I asked stephandare to do "There's No Place Like Downtown Jacksonville Florida"

Quote from: thelakelander on July 09, 2015, 10:32:05 PM
For those of you who claim Jax will never have a market for conventions, there's already one. We're already in the business. Like our parks, schools and public transit, it's just substandard and one of several black eyes for a DT everyone claims they want to see turned around. 

No one is making a push for a mega sized space, catered to a market we'll never compete in.  So let's stop talking about Orlando's, Vegas and Chicago when we're getting our asses kicked by Huntsville and Mobile. Instead, we should apply a bit a common sense to the situation in order to place existing complementing uses in a setting where they can actually be utilized more efficiently and help generate a cluster of activity that creates a small pocket for support uses. 

At the end of the day, building an exhibition hall right next to our existing subsidized convention center hotel/ballroom, accomplishes a few key things for downtown.......even if it only results in the same amount of conventions already taking place at the PO:

1. Frees up the old grand passenger rail terminal to become.....a passenger rail terminal and multimodal transportation center.

2. Replaces a dead block (old courthouse site) with a new mixed use modern exhibition hall.....attached to a convention center hotel.

3. Any type of activity generated at that exhibition hall (even the PO generates activity occasionally), creates foot traffic around Bay Street and Jax Landing businesses.... Heck, maybe the old steakhouse spot in the Hyatt could gain a new tenant by the increased foot traffic.

4. Just adding an exhibition box in an area where complementing uses already exists, drops the price to build significantly.

5. Locating that box within walking distance of complementing uses (ex. Florida Theatre, Hyatt, Jax Landing, Elbow clubs and restaurants, etc.) means you don't have to subsidize the same type of uses in a location where they don't already exist.

Replacing the old courthouse with a CC makes a lot of sense in the world. Especially, if we want to see places like Marks, Olio, etc. survive and new restaurants/bars in the vacant spaces adjacent to them.

Lol, what are you trying to do adding reason to this discussion. A convention center must be either an expensive, wasteful boondoggle that can't possibly be beneficial, or it's an absolute necessity that will single-handedly rescue Downtown (and more importantly, Marks Bar). There's no middle ground here!

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 10, 2015, 08:06:03 AM

Quote from: Adam White on July 10, 2015, 07:28:30 AM

Quote from: spuwho on July 09, 2015, 04:50:34 PM

The mistake I see in alot of these posts is that they assume everyone approaches travel like they do.

Its true some people want an "experience" but some people have work to get done. Especially after sitting in a convention hall all day.

I think you're right. There's not one "correct" answer - but I suppose we have to ensure that whatever approach we take, we do it right.

When has anything been done right and even under budget in Jacksonville Florida? The Main Library wasn't done right, the city Garage next to the Library on E Duval St was to have a bridge between both buildings but that was canceled. Because the city felt the shoppes on the first floor of the parking Garage wouldn't be used? I see Enterprise is using one of the shoppes but when this garage was first built the stores Never came to pass. And the new Court House was this done right & the state attorneys building how many problems does this old building still have after being redone. The list of doing things right is very short in Jacksonville. Please lets all think good thoughts and click those heels together once more like I asked stephandare to do "There's No Place Like Downtown Jacksonville Florida"

Government funded and lead projects rarely go well and under budget, even in more prosperous cities, but things like libraries and courthouses are a necessity obviously and are reasons why we pay taxes.  It is also hard to get those projects to run smoothly with all the talking heads involved.  That is why it is sooooo important to have private investors and private projects.  Like I mentioned in a previous post, Quicken Loans investing in downtown Detroit to attract young people to their company.

I will add that Riverside 220 and Brooklyn Station are the biggest and best revitalization efforts going on in the core and I am sure they will fulfill their intended purpose of populating Brooklyn and making that a vibrant area, and they are private investments.  They are also mixed use, which is why it will be more successful than other recent condo projects downtown.  Jacksonville may have finally realized that mixed use is the way to attract people and create the most vibrant communities.  COJ needs to incentivize further development there and in south La Villa to get people even closer to downtown.  Private investment = more tax revenue for the city.

Jason made a great rendering of a convention center on the courthouse site a few years ago.  I'm all for a basic exhibition box with a glass curtain wall facing the river, but I say leave a little room on the site and add the structural capacity to support a hotel or office space on the Bay Street side if the demand for such space should ever arise.  The parador parking garage is the biggest boondoggle since the courthouse and has effectively killed one of the most important blocks of downtown for the next decade or two.  We can't ever let that happen again.

Quote from: CCMjax on July 10, 2015, 09:20:55 AM

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 10, 2015, 08:06:03 AM

Quote from: Adam White on July 10, 2015, 07:28:30 AM

Quote from: spuwho on July 09, 2015, 04:50:34 PM

The mistake I see in alot of these posts is that they assume everyone approaches travel like they do.

Its true some people want an "experience" but some people have work to get done. Especially after sitting in a convention hall all day.

I think you're right. There's not one "correct" answer - but I suppose we have to ensure that whatever approach we take, we do it right.

When has anything been done right and even under budget in Jacksonville Florida? The Main Library wasn't done right, the city Garage next to the Library on E Duval St was to have a bridge between both buildings but that was canceled. Because the city felt the shoppes on the first floor of the parking Garage wouldn't be used? I see Enterprise is using one of the shoppes but when this garage was first built the stores Never came to pass. And the new Court House was this done right & the state attorneys building how many problems does this old building still have after being redone. The list of doing things right is very short in Jacksonville. Please lets all think good thoughts and click those heels together once more like I asked stephandare to do "There's No Place Like Downtown Jacksonville Florida"

Government funded and lead projects rarely go well and under budget, even in more prosperous cities, but things like libraries and courthouses are a necessity obviously and are reasons why we pay taxes.  It is also hard to get those projects to run smoothly with all the talking heads involved.  That is why it is sooooo important to have private investors and private projects.  Like I mentioned in a previous post, Quicken Loans investing in downtown Detroit to attract young people to their company.

"Quicken Loans investing in downtown Detroit to attract young people to their company." OK so which company is going to invest in Jacksonville Florida and not ask for tax credits?

Quote from: CCMjax on July 10, 2015, 09:33:22 AM
I will add that Riverside 220 and Brooklyn Station are the biggest and best revitalization efforts going on in the core and I am sure they will fulfill their intended purpose of populating Brooklyn and making that a vibrant area, and they are private investments.  They are also mixed use, which is why it will be more successful than other recent condo projects downtown.  Jacksonville may have finally realized that mixed use is the way to attract people and create the most vibrant communities.  COJ needs to incentivize further development there and in south La Villa to get people even closer to downtown.  Private investment = more tax revenue for the city.

We will see how well Riverside 220 does rent cost $1,060 - $2,004 Studio - 2 Beds. I'm glad these are Apartments and not Condo's? For I wouldn't rent one with all the damage that was done to them twice as they were being built.   Windows and sliding glass doors stayed open during constitution. I wonder if there will be a mold problem years from now?  Now the other Apartments "Brooklyn Station" $1000 dollars a month & up seems to be in better shape as they finish them and people move in. And having Fresh Market being built was also smart along with the other stores that want a piece of the New Action. The New and approved YMCA is getting built good news also. So in this area things are moving forward.   

Quote from: CCMjax on July 09, 2015, 05:55:59 PM
As much as I hate the idea of a convention center at the Town Center, how much you want to bet that's what ends up happening?  "Well, we have to follow the market trends."

I would be very happy to bet that will not be the result of the study

Quote from: CCMjax on July 10, 2015, 09:33:22 AM
I will add that Riverside 220 and Brooklyn Station are the biggest and best revitalization efforts going on in the core and I am sure they will fulfill their intended purpose of populating Brooklyn and making that a vibrant area, and they are private investments.  They are also mixed use, which is why it will be more successful than other recent condo projects downtown.  Jacksonville may have finally realized that mixed use is the way to attract people and create the most vibrant communities.  COJ needs to incentivize further development there and in south La Villa to get people even closer to downtown.  Private investment = more tax revenue for the city.

Lake has written several articles on here about the many incentives and contributions Dan Gilbert and other CEOs are making to improve Downtown Detroit. The question that comes up every time is who would be Jacksonville's Sugar Daddy? Shad Khan would be the obvious answer, but the followup questions are is he willing to do that and is it even necessary to have one?

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on July 10, 2015, 05:32:04 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 09, 2015, 10:07:54 PM

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on July 09, 2015, 04:49:30 PM
Well, I agree. However, the Orange County Convention Center was in the most suburban place possible, and it is by far the most popular destination for conventions in the country and the largest. I know Disney is there, that area has slightly urbanized, and it is apples to oranges, but it is not anywhere near their urban center.

Technically, I-Drive is more walkable and vibrant than DT Jax. There's also more to do there for tourist within walking distance than there is to do in DT Orlando....

Now there is and they have made it more walkable. However, even 10 years ago, nevermind when it was built, that was not the case. It was just near the theme parks.

I am all for a CC at the courthouse site. Lake, what would you like to see done with the annex though?

I personally believe that the annex would be great for conversion into apartments.  Since it's already standing and publicly owned, it seems like an ideal candidate for a public private partnership to deliver something suitable for the market.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 10, 2015, 09:33:40 AM
Jason made a great rendering of a convention center on the courthouse site a few years ago. 

That was done for TransForm Jax.  I have the renderings but can never figure out how  to post images on MJ....but one of them can be found on the TransForm Jax Facebook page here

https://www.facebook.com/131474790263388/photos/pb.131474790263388.-2207520000.1436540840./270487349695464/?type=3&theater

since then, we have recommended that the entire roof be green....meaning it could be used for passive and/or active recreation space.  Lots of folks keep talking about having a large park on the river for concerts, fireworks, etc.  Why not have that park on top of the convention center?

Detroit has also made investments in its downtown over the last 20 years.  Although he's recently stepped up to the plate, along with others, it's not like they were lost until he popped up on the scene. We shouldn't expect or wait around for a sugar daddy either.

But we do have sugar daddies, Haskell, Gay, Peyton. I wasn't even thinking about Kahn. He needs to produce a winning team this year how many game did we win last year two?

Here's an interactive map of downtown Miami's development pipeline:

http://miamidda.com/map/index.html

Maybe one day we'll have one for downtown Jacksonville.

Why in the heck do we need to be like Miami? What does Miami offer great nightlife, great restaurants, many wonderful Hotels. "23,500 condominiums -- 5,300 apartments -- 6,000+ hotel rooms -- 3.5 million square feet of office space -- 4.0 million square feet of retail" If you want to do a map that's easy. First off 1. First Baptist Church 2. Jaguars 3. Sweet Pete 4. The Landing 5. MOCA  6. Hyatt 7. Omni which I believe is still a miracle it's still here. 7. The Strand 8. 11 E Forsyth 9. The Carling / 11 East 10. 1431 Riverplace Blvd 11. 1478 Riverplace Blvd 12. Friendship park Fountain 13. The Riverwalk 14. Ruth's Chris Steak House And so many other wonderful places we all can be proud of. :)

http://jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545765 (http://jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545765)

Convention center dominates transition subcommittee talks
Friday, July 10, 12:03 PM EDT
By Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor

They dug into the weeds and are emerging with a recommendation for Mayor Lenny Curry to consider a new or expanded convention center.
In fact, the word "expanded" was debated by Curry's transition subcommittee members for economic development because many advocate for a new one rather than an enlarged Prime Osborn Convention Center.

"There's a lot of passion about the opportunities that a new or expanded convention center would bring," said subcommittee Chair John Delaney, president of the University of North Florida and a former mayor, after the meeting.

He said the group's consensus appears to be a new Downtown waterfront center.

Several members said during the meeting the Prime Osborn could continue focusing on regional and local trade shows and events.

"We're going to have a new convention center in Jacksonville someday," Delaney said during the meeting, emphasizing "someday."

Funding for an estimated potential $200 million to $500 million project was not addressed, although a few members said in previous meetings there were alternative funding methods.

Members will fine-tune the recommendation for a convention center to mirror one by the Jacksonville Civic Council's 2011 Northbank Redevelopment Task Force.

It's not clear if the committee will recommend a specific site. The Civic Council report suggested the old courthouse and City Hall Annex site next to the 963-room Hyatt Regency Jacksonville Riverfront hotel. There is not a hotel near the Prime Osborn.

In addition, the convention center recommendation will explain that it would serve as an anchor on the waterfront and provide jobs.

The group also focused on a "right-sized" center rather than suggest a specific size.

Aundra Wallace, CEO of the Downtown Investment Authority, said an updated market study about a convention center is due in mid-October. He said research indicates when convention planners are asked which location would be preferred, "the waterfront convention center will always win out over where we currently are right now."

The group also discussed that convention-generated jobs, admittedly low wage for the most part, would provide employment for many people who need work in the Downtown area.

City and state incentives have focused on creating high-wage jobs or high capital investment projects. Adding new programs to provide taxpayer assistance to create lower-wage jobs is a departure from traditional city and state deals.

Adding incentives to create lower-wage jobs also has been a consensus among members, citing the sociological and community benefits to bringing employment to distressed areas.

"We have really redefined what economic development is, and that's big. That's a real big issue in Jacksonville," said member Ginny Myrick, a former City Council member.

Myrick runs the Myrick Policy Group government relations firm and works with clients on incentives requests.

The subcommittee met for the eighth time Thursday. It was scheduled to be the last meeting, but Delaney will call a wrap-up session next week.

Members are asked to provide their suggested changes and updates so the final document can be approved then.

Other major recommendations include:

• Maintain the economic-development operational structure of the mayor's Office of Economic Development, the Downtown Investment Authority, the mayor's Office of Sports and Entertainment, the Jacksonville Sports Council and JAX Chamber.

• Maintain city support and monitoring of long-term high-profile projects, such as the port, shipyards, Community Wealth Building, Cecil Commerce Center and the Global Cities Export Plan.

• Establish a scorecard for economic development deals that receive city incentives and a system to monitor them.

• Develop an asset-mapping and management system to identify unused or underused city properties.

• Support Downtown economic development and the redevelopment master plan.

• Evaluate and implement a plan to accelerate permitting and regulatory review.

Curry spokesman Bill Spann said the transition subcommittee reports are due July 17. Once all are in, there will be a group meeting at which the subcommittee chairs will present their recommendations to Curry and his executive staff.

kmathis@jaxdailyrecord.com

(904) 356-2466

The navel-gazing on this board . . . wow. The bitching and moaning . . . wow. The casual critique pointing out an obvious apples-to-oranges comparison from someone who routinely gets on here with all manner of discussion & comparisons about San Francisco, New York, Chicago, etc. -- wow.

I'm beginning to think more and more that some of y'all are the freaking problem and I guess that's unavoidable. Everybody in the city either has to be stupid or evil corporate types only interested in enriching them and theirs.

Sigh. And . . . Stephen:

"We used to. 

When we had thirty more hotels downtown, and all the nightlife and action you could find in any city outside of New Orleans."

Come on, man. Stop that.

We're an absolutely unique city with great beach communities from Fernandina Beach to Crescent Beach, a city with an urban core that has been hit by national trends that simply couldn't be mitigated. Unacknowledged by y'all urban core types (in my honest opinion) is the unique fact that we have such great beach communities that their presence slows the re-invigoration of the urban core.

Only now is Jax kinda in position to *really* bloom downtown, but this incessant bitching, this crazy invocation of Detroit, Huntsville, Mobile -- Ennis, what !?!

Plain and simple, the lure of the suburbs & the Beaches has been too much to successfully battle. Few urban areas had the combination we offered to pull focus from downtown: beautiful river all the way down to Central Florida, miles and miles of great beaches, and plenty of land for suburban housing near the river, the Intracoastal or the beach. But the stars are aligning for our urban core. That video posted by eu Jacksonville of Mama Blue performing under the I-95 bridge / Riverside Arts Market with the July 4th fireworks exploding in the background -- wow, the potential for this city and its riverfront is incredible.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=857446601012365

Great stuff. More context & understanding of Big Duval, more acceptance of & positivity about Jacksonville, less bitching and moaning. And yes, In Shad Khan I Trust !!! Y'all should, too.

^A few quick things....

1. While once vibrant during its heyday, it's a real stretch to claim that activity in DT Jax was only rivaled by New Orleans. Jax has always been a second tier regional city and just about every American city out there was significantly more vibrant (than it is today) prior to the 1950s.

2. Rattler, when I mentioned Huntsville and Mobile, I was speaking in regards to the size/conditions of their convention centers and adjacent supporting activities, in relation to the Prime Osborn's current situation.  I quick google search will validate my position on that comment. No opinions really needed.

3. I wish we stop saying we're so unique, only to then list things that every major coastal city in the country already has or has to deal with.  Jax isn't the only place with booming suburbs, a beach or other districts that some think downtown has to compete with. Just going up the Atlantic Coast, Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Savannah, Charleston, Norfolk/Virginia Beach, etc. all face similar challenges, in regards to having nice vibrant beaches, but still figuring out how to better their cores. The faster we kill the excuse machine, the better off we'll be.

Is this the same John Delaney that sold us a Bill of Goods with the $3.2 Billion Better Jacksonville plan so he could build the $190 Million Courthouse monstrosity that ended up costing $390 Million?  No thanks...............back to the drawing board on his $500 Million Convention Center; notice how the last one Convention Center worked out for drawing visitors?

Quote from: Glenn OSteen on July 10, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
Is this the same John Delaney that sold us a Bill of Goods with the $3.2 Billion Better Jacksonville plan so he could build the $190 Million Courthouse monstrosity that ended up costing $390 Million?  No thanks...............back to the drawing board on his $500 Million Convention Center; notice how the last one Convention Center worked out for drawing visitors?

actually that's the same mayor whose Better Jacksonville Plan brought us a new baseball stadium, a new arena, a new downtown library as well as enhanced branch libraries, and many new/widened roads.

That's a hard one to prove. Birmingham, Houston, Dallas, Norfolk, Richmond, Memphis, Louisville, Atlanta, Miami, Savannah, Charleston, Tampa, etc...  were all more important and larger hubs of activity in certain areas, during certain periods between the civil war and civil rights era.  Jax didn't even crack 100k residents until the 1920s, a feat achieved by many others listed above, prior to 1900. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that while Jax probably had a raucous nightlife in its prior existence, it sounds like it may be a stretch to call it the most vibrant/best/etc nightlife in the SE outside of NOLA.  Perhaps the port/ocean setting did have an influence on diversity and leniency for liquor laws, but comparing populations, Jax was actually always quite a bit smaller than its southern counterparts, and there is always something to be said about sheer size.  Not to mention, if it's certainly true Jax was indeed liberal and free-spirited, the same people that lived in the city before at one point in the 40s/50s did a complete reversal and ever since Jax has been one of probably the top 3-5 most conservative cities in North America (western hemisphere?).  That's a pretty serious and sudden flip, which makes it hard for me to believe that Jax was ever as socially liberal and wild as we reminisce several generations later.

1930

Tampa - 154K
Jax - 155K
Nashville - 223K
Richmond - 265K
Memphis - 306K
Louisville - 355K
Atlanta - 389K
Birmingham - 431K
New Orleans - 500K



Anyway, yes to what Lakelander and a few others (and Stephen) have said.  To the rest of you - what did you migrate over to MetroJacksonville from the FTU comments section?  Clearly there are some popular opinion hurdles to overcome, even amongst the engaged so-called progressive/urban thinking crowd in Jax.  What I'm gathering from perhaps the slight majority of recent posters on this topic is that any and all money spent on anything is a waste.  That's pretty scary.

Quote from: stephendare on July 10, 2015, 09:21:03 PM
you mean permanent residents, I think, lake.  And I think we've been over the unreliability of the population numbers of the various eras anyways when we were comparing county populations and city limits populations.

Keep in mind that a tourist town has two to three times more people visiting that people living there.

For example New York City has about 10million residents in its greater metro area, yet there aren't only 10 million people in the city.

Every year there are at least 60 million.  Why?  because of 50 million tourists annually.

http://www.nycandcompany.org/press/new-york-city-sets-new-goal-to-generate-70-billion-in-tourism-annual-econom

Quote"Today's announcement is another reminder of the important role tourism plays in New York City," said Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg. "Every visitor that comes to our City and every dollar they spend is critically important to our economy. After reaching a milestone 50 million visitors last year and setting our sights on attracting 55 million visitors by 2015, it is great to see the industry prepared to reach new heights."

"Over the past few years no industry has been more vital to New York City than tourism," said Robert K. Steel, Deputy Mayor for Economic Development. "Tourism already supports 320,000 jobs, and this incredible increase in visitor spending is expected to add an additional 30,000 over the next three years.

and thats not counting the merchant marine and business travelers who are in the city every day as part of the trade and commerce empire of the east coast.  There are various figures that Ive seen that place the total of non residential people in New York somewhere at between 80 and 100 million annually, depending on if you count all of the people that go in and out of the port of new york.

So its not that really hard to prove, residential figures only prove what was possible in terms of generating real estate taxes.

That doesn't mean that on a daily basis there are 5x as many people in NYC as permanent residents.  Those 50 million visitors are spread over the year with a few peaks and valleys.

Jax didn't have a permanent population of 155K in 1930 but actually a population of 500K (just throwing that out there) because of that level of visitors.  Perhaps in the summer or winter months at that point the population bloomed to 175-190K a day, but then settled back down to normal in another season.

Sure it has an effect.  Perhaps being coastal had a relatively larger effect to Jax's population than being inland did relative to Atlanta's population at the time.  But Atlanta was literally 3x larger.  That's a huge difference, and you can feel it even today as there are clearly more old buildings over larger area in Atlanta than there are in Jax.

^^^we're saying the same thing.  But Jax would have needed enough constant visitors all year to basically double its population in order just get to the permanent resident populations of its peers in the south, assuming these other cities didn't have their own visitors.  I live in a super touristy city with a huge business base, so yes, I do understand what you're saying and I live it every day.  But Jax didn't have the millions of people surrounding it that some cities do today (it was basically 155K in 1930 in a more or less confined area...so there weren't subways and highways hauling in hundreds of thousands or even millions more into its downtown, daily), and I'm sure it had fewer hotel rooms in 1930 than San Francisco has today (~35K rooms), so do the math there for places for visitors to stay.

But conceptually I agree...I just think Jax was a pretty teeny tiny place for most of its existence, even if for a good chunk of its existence it was an amazing teeny tiny place!

Yeah, from all accounts, it was a pretty exciting place. That's one thing. Most exciting and lively outside of New Orleans is another animal altogether. Very hard to prove without some decent apples-to-apples data behind it.

Anyway, I've yet to read a solid reason for leaving the Prime Osborn, JRTC, Hyatt, old courthouse site and the Elbow in their current state. Pony up and get that box built!

Keep in mind also that in the late 19th-early 20th century, "tourists" didn't fly in for a day or two, they generally set up residence in one of the grand downtown hotels for a considerable time (often the entire winter season).

Yes. It just would have been the same for every decent sized city.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 10, 2015, 11:26:13 PM
Yes. It just would have been the same for every decent sized city.

Except that Birmingham, Houston, Dallas, Norfolk, Richmond, Memphis, Louisville, and Atlanta weren't tourist meccas the way Jacksonville was at that time.

What's the specific time period? Stephen tossed out Civil War to Civil Rights. That's a long time and some of the other cities (ex. Savannah, Charleston, Tampa, Miami, etc.) were certainly larger tourism oriented centers during parts of that 100 year time span.

As I said, late 19th-early 20th century.  Around the 1880s when Flagler first built his railroad until around the 19t00s when he extended it down the state.

Quote from: finehoe on July 10, 2015, 11:15:18 PM
Keep in mind also that in the late 19th-early 20th century, "tourists" didn't fly in for a day or two, they generally set up residence in one of the grand downtown hotels for a considerable time (often the entire winter season).

This is true.  But how many hotel rooms do you think DT Jax had prewar?  Given hotel room sizes then and what travel used to consist of, it would be no surprise if there were more rooms than DT Jax has today.  But I very highly doubt we are talking more than 10,000 rooms in the entire city, and it's absolutely uncommon if not an impossibility for every single room to be booked (esp all the time) - probably similar to today - 80+% avg occupancy over an extended time is about as good as it gets.  The larger hotels back in the day probably had a few hundred rooms a pop.  And there were really only ~10 or so "larger" hotels.  I'm sure many other people stayed with families in permanent residences.  You still get that today.

I would imagine sailors staying on ships docked at the wharves accounted for the largest portion of any increases to the population at any given time.  But I would also be interested on official studies into the matter.  These kinds of things are still studied/tracked today.  Manhattan is about the only place that registers more non-farm employment within its bounds than its total population (2.2 million vs 1.6 million).

Below is an interesting look at changes in daytime employment.  Doesn't factor in tourism or business travel.  DC reigns as the city with the biggest daily influx of workers relative to its population.  And nobody else is even close.

http://ww2.kqed.org/lowdown/2014/01/10/how-city-populations-change/

Anyway, semi-relevant to discussion at hand.

As large and thriving as Atlanta and Birmingham were for a while, with their size and the number of people who had family members there, I'm sure there were plenty of tourists and visitors to these cities.

I also would think that leisure travel back in the day was relegated to the generally wealthy, not the working middle class or poor.  So I think that probably greatly limited the audience that wintered in Jax or traveled down for leisure at any point to a pretty small population sample size.  Hence why our little town got so many big names over a 50 year span.

I don't think they had Southwest Airlines or Jetblue back in the day...I think it was pretty much the wealthy, and sailors, that contributed to Jax tourism.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

Contrast - per Lakelander's recent article on the Embarcadero in SF - today you'll be smushed up against mainly middle or even lower income travelers who can afford a plane ticket to visit San Francisco, buy a couple hoodies, eat some Dungeness crab, and stay at a boutique hotel for 4-7 days.  Like almost the majority of the world can do that in 2015.  Also, you have planes that fly direct for 18+ hours now from halfway across the globe.  So now you get insane crowds and throngs of tourists all year long.  I'm sure back in 1930, a railroad ticket on the Trancontinental or a ticket on a ship to circle the continent and bring passengers from the E Coast to the W Coat or a flight on a DC-6 - all of those modes of travel were "luxurious" and reserved for the very rich.  I doubt you had the Mickey Mouse matching hoodie wearing families from Indonesia visiting at that point.

Mass tourism didn't happen until after the end of WWII. Here's the population of Jax and a few other key southern port cities between 1870 and 1900.

Jacksonville
1870 - 6,912
1880 - 7,650
1890 - 17,201
1900 - 28,429

Savannah
1870 - 28,235
1880 - 30,709
1890 - 43,189
1900 - 65,064

Charleston
1870 - 48,956
1880 - 49,984
1890 - 54,955
1900 - 55,807

Richmond
1870 - 51,038
1880 - 63,600
1890 - 81,388
1900 - 85,050

Mobile
1870 - 32,034
1880 - 29,132
1890 - 31,076
1900 - 38,469

Norfolk
1870 - 19,229
1880 - 21,966
1890 - 34,871
1900 - 46,624

Memphis
1870 - 40,226
1880 - 33,592
1890 - 64,495
1900 - 102,320

Houston
1870 - 9,332
1880 - 16,513
1890 - 27,557
1900 - 44,633

Galveston
1870 - 13,818
1880 - 22,248
1890 - 29,084
1900 - 37,789

Louisville
1870 - 100,753
1880 - 123,758
1890 - 161,129
1900 - 204,731

Does anyone know what Jax's population swelled to during tourism season? Not including tourist (yes, it had them too), Louisville already had 100k residents in 1870. I seriously doubt, Jax's population swelled to those types of numbers, given the sanborn maps displaying a much smaller community during this particular era.

The difference in numbers only grows when you start factoring in population of adjacent communities (within the core counties). For example, using just Duval, Jefferson, and Shelby counties....

Duval County Population (this would include Jax, LaVilla, San Marco, Brooklyn...)
1870 - 11,921
1880 - 19,431
1890 - 26,800
1900 - 39,733


Jefferson County Population (this would include Louisville and adjacent cities)
1870 - 118,953
1880 - 146,010
1890 - 188,598
1900 - 232,549


Shelby County Population (this would include Memphis and adjacent cities)
1870 - 76,378
1880 - 78,430
1890 - 112,740
1900 - 153,557

So even assuming 80k winter residents (can you provide a link for that number?) in Jax and absolutely zero visitors (an unrealistic assumption) in larger peer cities, the overall numbers still don't add up. Plus, considering the others were larger port cities, at the time, they'd have railroads (like the L&N Railroad), dockworkers, stevedores, etc. as well.

^That link says 100,000 tourist between January and April each year during the 1880s and 1890s. That number is spread out over 4 months. It also claims that the city only had two dozen hotels. Those numbers really don't add up to the other city's base numbers. Unfortunately, to prove the claim made, one would have to know how many tourist were visiting the other communities during the same time period.

Take Louisville for example. Yes, it was more industrial. However, that doesn't mean it did not have destinations and events that attracted tourist from the region. Around page 5 of this link, it talks about Louisville during the late 19th century (including events like the Southern Exposition of industry and technology and the Kentucky Derby at Churchill Downs):

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2008/9/17-louisville-bennett-gatz/200809_louisville.pdf

So yes, when it comes to urban vibrancy and tourism, it's still a stretch to make a claim that Jax was only second to New Orleans, when we don't have the tourism information on other communities to truly compare.

Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2015, 01:45:59 PMBesides, logically thinking, what type of an economy would produce a downtown dominated by wharves, railroads, bordellos, and hotels?

The other downtowns (like Memphis, Louisville, Nashville, etc.) were dominated by wharves, railroads, bordellos and hotels as well.  These were pretty common uses during that era in America's urban history.

^^^I hate to dispute Stephen right now because I'm feeling particularly friendly with him these days, but Stephen also made the point earlier on that "Atlanta was a railroad city while Jax was a port city" and he used that to drive home his point that railroad cities were boring and port cities were not.

Can't have an argument work both ways.  Judging from its size, stature, and notoriety, Atlanta was probably more of a railroad city than Jax was a port city, though Atlanta didn't have a port and Jax also had the railways.

Memphis and Louisville were definitely river port cities.  Cincinnati too.  And Pittsburgh.  These cities along with St. Louis fed the New Orleans economy.  So the same characters in NOLA were also in these other river towns.

Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2015, 02:38:26 PM
Even then, the economy was based on cotton and hardwood lumber, planing and milling---very labor intensive, explaining the population numbers and not conducive to the wealthy travelers that are central to tourism.

Minus the cotton, much of our economy was based on labor intensive industries like hardwood lumber, planing, milling, shipbuilding, turpentine/naval stores, etc. In reality, there's not much difference in these cities during that era, other than sheer size and scale. A few like Louisville, New Orleans, Memphis were much larger and denser.

Yes, we had some wealthy tourist but the scale wasn't anywhere near a level to prove that Jax was the second only to New Orleans in tourism and urban vibrancy. While urban vibrancy is easily proven with population, density numbers, etc. (there were several places just as or more vibrant than Jax during the 1880s/90s), the tourism part is like nailing jello to a wall without some factual apples to apples data to add to the conversation.

Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2015, 02:49:57 PM

Quote from: simms3 on July 11, 2015, 02:36:29 PM
^^^I hate to dispute Stephen right now because I'm feeling particularly friendly with him these days, but Stephen also made the point earlier on that "Atlanta was a railroad city while Jax was a port city" and he used that to drive home his point that railroad cities were boring and port cities were not.

Can't have an argument work both ways.  Judging from its size, stature, and notoriety, Atlanta was probably more of a railroad city than Jax was a port city, though Atlanta didn't have a port and Jax also had the railways.

Memphis and Louisville were definitely river port cities.  Cincinnati too.  And Pittsburgh.  These cities along with St. Louis fed the New Orleans economy.  So the same characters in NOLA were also in these other river towns.

I like the discussion and the fleshing out of the ideas, actually.  I always do.  And I don't conflate rail with 'boring', I just equate ports with 'diversity'.  Coastal cities in particular tend to have an international flavor around their ports, and Jville was certainly an example of this.  Famously 'a hundred languages were spoken along Bay Street', according to Bob Broward, who grew up during that era.

Railroad hubs have an interesting effect on cities.  Lots and lots of men work them, and they tend to be single, traveling with their company from one work site to the next with loneliness and disposable cash.  Railroads and military installments mean lots of prostitution and gay subcultures, and depending on the Vice Cultures of a city, they have profound influences on the overall cultures.  When the bordellos are owned primarily by men (Chicago, Pittsburgh, New York, for example) they tend to have an industrial outlook: Economy of resources and investment, an emphasis on the product, and a no nonsense, assets driven kind of practice.  Where they are primarily owned by women, (Atlanta, Jacksonville, New Orleans) they have a different effect.  Ambiance, mood, dancing and the like are emphasized.  The Madames of Storyville in New Orleans and La Villa in Jacksonville invested in entertainment and related enterprises.  They also owned saloons, dance halls, hotels and entertainment groups and created cultural networks around those inter related businesses for the simple reason that they paid entertainers, and as a result were the mid wives of Jazz. The businessmen of Chicago used that same ethos of investing in new (and primarily american) cultural communities and as a result, Jazz, modern art, impressionism and the like were the realm of bordellos, steak houses, gambling joints, and speakeasies during Prohibiition, twenty years later.

Any chance you'll be leading a walking tour of this history? Is any of it still left standing?

Umm....ok. No one ever said Jax wasn't a small tourist town and seaport during the late 1880s and 1890s. That's a different animal than a blanket statement claiming only New Orleans was more vibrant.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 11, 2015, 03:04:41 PM
While urban vibrancy is easily proven with population, density numbers, etc.

I don't think it's a given that larger population/density automatically equals more vibrancy.  Look at Gainesville.  It's without a doubt smaller than Jacksonville, yet it certainly feels more vibrant.  I think the point Stephen is making is that the type of people a city attracts matters more than sheer numbers.

Gainesville's core has a larger population density than Jax's downtown core does. UF has more students staying on campus (9,200) than all the residents of the Northbank, Southbank and Brooklyn combined (maybe 3,500 tops). Nevertheless, I wouldn't call it or Jax one of the most vibrant cores in Florida, much less an entire region of the country. I see the point Stephen is trying to make. It's just an opinion that's pretty hard to prove when you're outright discounting other communities that were significantly larger and attracted a good amount of visitors themselves.

Miami Beach was considered the major tourism center by the 1920s and this source claims it was drawing nearly 2 million tourist annually by 1940. Well before South Florida's explosion in growth in the mid-to-late 20th century.

http://www.wdl.org/en/item/4027/

Quote from: thelakelander on July 12, 2015, 11:58:16 AM
Nevertheless, I wouldn't call it or Jax one of the most vibrant cores in Florida, much less an entire region of the country.

Who cares?  That isn't my point.  All I'm saying is that if 50 years from now someone argued that Jacksonville was a more vibrant place in 2015 than Gainesville because Jacksonville had a population of 800,000 while Gainesville's was only 125,000 they would clearly be wrong.

Quote from: stephendare on July 12, 2015, 01:07:26 PM

Quote from: stephendare on July 10, 2015, 09:01:12 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 10, 2015, 06:04:15 PM
^A few quick things....

1. While once vibrant during its heyday, it's a real stretch to claim that activity in DT Jax was only rivaled by New Orleans. Jax has always been a second tier region city and just about every American city out there was significantly more vibrant prior to the 1950s.

In the south it was only rivaled by New Orleans, especially between the civil war and the civil rights era.

This is a 100 year span. Addison Mizner died in 1933. So should the claim be especially between the civil war and the Florida Land Boom for better accuracy since Miami Beach clearly surpassed anything Jax had been in the 19th century by the 1920s?

QuoteIt was one of the few southern economies that wasn't only based on agriculture, a bona fide multicultural coastal town, and an international port.  There was a lot of commerce, trade, tourism and very special things that only happened here.

Before the age of the railroad, steamships and paddleboats ruled the day. Most of the major cities along the Mississippi River and it's tributaries saw hundreds of thousands of passengers penetrating their boundaries during this 19th century era.  At the time, Jax was was a small little place. Their economies were not only based on agriculture. There was a lot of commerce, trade, tourism and very special things happening there in the 19th century as well. So perhaps we should limit the comparison to coastal cities in select states of the south? We'll then need some caveat to exclude 19th century Savannah and Charleston.

QuoteKeep in mind that until Mizener really developed south Florida, Jax and Tampa were the big cities of the State.  Orlando was cheap orange growing territory until Disney moved in, Miami was a one stop wonder until cocaine transformed it in the late 1970s,

Mizner didn't develop South Florida. He was an architect. Both the Bay area and Miami/South Florida effectively surpassed our region by the end of the 1920s land boom.

QuoteIn the whole of the south that left Jacksonville Atlanta, New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston, and Nashville.

Other places of decent size in the 100 year time frame given would have been the Texas cities (I consider Texas southern), Memphis, Louisville, Richmond, Norfolk, Birmingham, Mobile and DC (it was carved out of Virginia/Maryland). I'd say Baltimore too, since it was south of the Mason Dixon.

QuoteCharleston was so poverty stricken and agriculturally dependent that it never really blossomed into a center for the middle and upper classes nationally.  Jacksonville had the navy, the shipping, the industry, logging, turpentine, banking and tourism.

Savannah had a similar economic base during the 1860s to 1960s suggested time span.

QuoteAtlanta was landlocked, and railroad built, which limited it from the outright diversity of an ocean port city.  It was bigger, most of the time, but not legendary for its nightlife.

So there's a clear personal bias between landlocked city and ocean port city. Hey, I prefer waterfront cities as well. However, I won't deduct vibrancy points for being landlocked in the age of the railroad. With that said, Memphis and many of those river cities were legendary for their nightlife. These places were hubs of commerce, nightlife, transportation, etc. as america expanded west during the late 19th century. I wouldn't outright claim they had less than 100,000 visitors over a four month span in the 1880s and 1890s without some proof suggesting otherwise.

QuoteJacksonville was what was called 'wide open' during the first half of the 20th Century.  It was a fun, rocking place to be.

No dispute here. So was Louisville and Memphis. They were just 5 to 10 times larger during that era, with a ton of more density and people traveling through them.

Quote from: finehoe on July 12, 2015, 01:27:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on July 12, 2015, 11:58:16 AM
Nevertheless, I wouldn't call it or Jax one of the most vibrant cores in Florida, much less an entire region of the country.

Who cares?  That isn't my point.  All I'm saying is that if 50 years from now someone argued that Jacksonville was a more vibrant place in 2015 than Gainesville because Jacksonville had a population of 800,000 while Gainesville's was only 125,000 they would clearly be wrong.

I guess. Luckily, I'm not doing that. I've provided some extra analysis of why we shouldn't assume that Jax was the second most vibrant place in the south, over a 100 year span, only to New Orleans. It's quite a silly assumption when you really sit down and think about it.

Quote from: stephendare on July 12, 2015, 01:59:55 PM
Lake, you do know that the south florida tourism industry collapsed after the land boom crash and great depression, right?

http://floridahistory.org/landboom.htm

Not to levels as low as Jax's 1880s numbers.

QuoteHenry Flagler, who is known as the father of Florida Tourism built the largest tourist hotel in St. Augustine (I'm sure this has just slipped your mind)
And he effectively founded Miami just prior to 1900...before that it wasn't really even a town.

https://roadtripusa.com/atlantic-coast/henry-flagler-father-of-florida-tourism/

Don't forget about Julia Tuttle, "The Mother of Miami". After years of trying, she convinced Flagler to expand to Miami by giving him some of her land for a station and development. Also, don't forget about Henry Plant. Flagler was along the east coast. Plant's railroad resulted in major development in Central Florida and Tampa. Plant also built resorts. The Tampa Bay Hotel (now a part of UT) is a pretty big place.

QuoteThough you've probably never heard of the man, you can't travel very far along the east coast of Florida without coming under the influence of Henry Flagler, who almost singlehandedly turned what had been swampy coastline into one of the world's most popular tourist destinations. After making a fortune as John D. Rockefeller's partner in the Standard Oil Company, in the early 1880s Flagler came to St. Augustine with his wife, who was suffering from health problems. He found the climate agreeable, but the facilities sorely lacking, so he embarked on construction of the 540-room Hotel Ponce de León, which opened in 1888. The hotel, the first major resort in Florida, was an instant success, and Flagler quickly expanded his operations, building the first railroad along the coast south to Palm Beach, where he opened the world's largest hotel, the now-demolished Royal Poinciana, in 1894, joined by The Breakers in 1901 and his own palatial home, Whitehall, in 1902.

Meanwhile, Flagler was busy extending his railroad south, effectively founding the new city of Miami in 1897 when he opened the deluxe Royal Palm Hotel.

Coinciding with the hotel, the city of St. Augustine began their reconstruction of fake historic landmarks to complement the North Florida tourism boom.  After the Land Boom went bust, even St. Augustine didn't really recover as a tourist destination until the late 1950s (for obvious historical reasons)

http://folioweekly.com/The-Fake-History-of-St-Augustine,9190

For accuracy, Miami was founded on July 28, 1896. You should also familiarize yourself with Henry B. Plant. He did just as much as Flagler did in developing the state and he also invested and spent time in Jax. He died in 1899 and his railroad company was acquired by the Atlantic Coast Line, soon after, which is probably why some overlook his contribution to the state's development. If you're ever in Tampa and have free time, check out his hotel in downtown. It's pretty impressive. If not, we've included it in several Learning From Tampa articles over the years. You can find some MJ images here: http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Tampa-2014/46597112_2W5Zz4#!i=3788019341&k=RFb9ThV

QuoteJacksonville (where the state banks were) had determined that the southern florida land boom was a bubble before the crash of the stock market in 1929 and had stopped extending finance to south florida speculators.  By 1928, according to most sites, Jville had 3 million tourists passing through the city

How many tourist were passing through other places? Also, no argument from my end that Jax set itself up as a regional hub for banking and insurance in the second half of your 100 year time frame. However, I recall things being a bit more regional and not as dominant, at least from the persepective of places in the state not located in North Florida. For example, SunBank was pretty big in Central Florida before being merged into SunTrust. I believe Southeast Bank was the big one based out of Miami before being merged into First Union in 2001. Growing up in Central Florida, the only Jax-based bank I remember with a big presence down there was Barnett. However, that time period of growth would fall outside of your 100 year time frame.

QuoteMizener was an architect, but most people refer to the his work as the benchmark of the emergence of a distinctively modern south florida era.

I chose that time period because it accurately describes the time period in which the national rail lines connected with the maritime travel industry in downtown. (1948 was effectively the year in which you couldn't hop directly from a ship onto a train very easily.)  The wharf redevelopments began in earnest in 1952 when Haydon Burns started the old steam ship docks into over water parking lots for the new motorized transportation system. (cars)

Jacksonville was called the Gateway to Florida for a reason, and it kept that distinction until the early 1980s.

It was and still is a Gateway. The state was just a lot more insignificant 100 years ago than it is today.

QuoteIm sure you aren't under the impression that everyone who visited south florida during the 6 years of the land boom in the 1920s used monoplanes or speedboats to get there.  All of those people had to stop in the already bustling metropolis (comparative to the rest of Florida) of Jacksonville.

Unless they arrived by boat. ;) Anyway, now we've added another caveat.....comparative to the rest of Florida....as opposed to south outside of New Orleans. This is a more accurate statement. However, Florida wasn't the major metropolis it is today.

QuoteSavannah and Charleston both went through long periods of intense economic depression following the civil war, as did most of the secondary southern towns, and their economies never truly came back until after world war 2.

Our economy went down the tubes in the 30s too. Like the others, WWII pulled us out of it.

There wasn't much tourism going on statewide in Florida in the 19th century (first half of your time line). Outside of a few North Florida spots, the state was largely undeveloped. Anyway, we've veered enough from the original discussion. I don't feel like changing the debate to discuss Flagler. I'll simply repeat that given the facts we can generate at this point, it's a stretch to say Jacksonville was only second to New Orleans in tourism and vibrancy (southern cities) at any point between the 1860s and 1960s.

We know Miami Beach became an international destination in the 1920s, so without doing much research, we can take out the 1920s - 1960s part of the time line.

We also know that other southern port cities like Memphis and Louisville were key hubs with similar economies as Jax, just on a much larger scale during the 19th century.

Prior to 1900, one could probably make a compelling case for Galveston as well. During the late 1800s, it was known as "the Playground of the South." Heck, even today, it still pulls in over 5 million tourist annually. Like Jax, disaster struck around the turn of the century. Unlike Jax, there was a similar scaled competitor nearby (Houston) that immediately took advantage of Galveston's downfall. We were able to build into a much larger place than we were in the 1800s, but growth also expanded to Central and South Florida due to the expansion of rail lines by Flagler and Plant.

Last, I never said all other cities. I didn't mention Orlando, Charlotte, Raleigh, etc. I only mentioned a few that one could use to poke holes in the belief that Jax was the only second in tourism and urban vibrancy in the south to New Orleans between the 1860s and 1960s. It's local feel good folklore, but it's not historically accurate.

Yes, it's about Curry's administration considering the possibilities of moving or expanding the convention center. When the thread was on topic, I posted my perspective on it. I'm of the belief that it is a worthwhile idea to build a mixed-use exhibition hall attached to the Hyatt's meeting facilities, on the old courthouse site. It helps alleviate several problems currently negatively impacting the Northbank core. It also should not cost an insane $200 to $500 million.

Then make it $210 million and kill multiple birds at a single time! ;)

Build it and they will come.

Quote from: stephendare on July 12, 2015, 03:53:54 PM
for a 10 million dollar investment in convention development, you could probably do more to create a convention economy than a 200 million dollar building of any sort.

I think we need to hire consultants to do a study.  ::)

Quote from: finehoe on July 13, 2015, 08:02:43 AM

Quote from: stephendare on July 12, 2015, 03:53:54 PM
for a 10 million dollar investment in convention development, you could probably do more to create a convention economy than a 200 million dollar building of any sort.

I think we need to hire consultants to do a study.  ::)

The city could ask stephendare, thelakelander, or even you finehoe? And save a lot of money in the long run. :)

No more studying needed. We have at least 10 years of studies on the shelf and hundreds of positive and negative examples across the country to look at. It's not even a build it and they'll come scenario.  We already have it in a horrible location.  Just get it over with by moving it for crying out loud.

Quote from: The_Choose_1 on July 13, 2015, 08:49:44 AM
The city could ask stephendare, thelakelander, or even you finehoe?

I will gladly charge them a few hundred grand to say the same thing all the previous studies have said.  8)

I love the idea. Maybe draw a developer to turn the annex into a mixed use hotel/residences?

Honestly, I am all about wise decisions with money, and God knows I believe the Trio is a huge key to future success in Jax. However, we need something to happen in the northbank just mentally to get the momentum going. This could help make that happen with the Trio and bring in new visitors to our beautiful waterfront. More people means more business for Bay St., the Landing, and other establishments!

QuoteHonestly, I am all about wise decisions with money, and God knows I believe the Trio is a huge key to future success in Jax. However, we need something to happen in the northbank just mentally to get the momentum going. This could help make that happen with the Trio and bring in new visitors to our beautiful waterfront. More people means more business for Bay St., the Landing, and other establishments!

I'll bet we see more happen on the Convention landscape along the river than we do on the Trio. The Trio has the Barnett Bank Building Foreclosure hanging over it like the weight of Shad Khan's boat over it. No one wants to touch that area when investors are worried about defaults. The trio may as well be the latest and greatest Berkman II Plaza saga.

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 14, 2015, 06:13:43 AM

QuoteHonestly, I am all about wise decisions with money, and God knows I believe the Trio is a huge key to future success in Jax. However, we need something to happen in the northbank just mentally to get the momentum going. This could help make that happen with the Trio and bring in new visitors to our beautiful waterfront. More people means more business for Bay St., the Landing, and other establishments!

I'll bet we see more happen on the Convention landscape along the river than we do on the Trio. The Trio has the Barnett Bank Building Foreclosure hanging over it like the weight of Shad Khan's boat over it. No one wants to touch that area when investors are worried about defaults. The trio may as well be the latest and greatest Berkman II Plaza saga.

I was under the impression Khan foreclosed on just the Barnett Bank building?

Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on July 14, 2015, 08:43:05 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on July 14, 2015, 06:13:43 AM

QuoteHonestly, I am all about wise decisions with money, and God knows I believe the Trio is a huge key to future success in Jax. However, we need something to happen in the northbank just mentally to get the momentum going. This could help make that happen with the Trio and bring in new visitors to our beautiful waterfront. More people means more business for Bay St., the Landing, and other establishments!

I'll bet we see more happen on the Convention landscape along the river than we do on the Trio. The Trio has the Barnett Bank Building Foreclosure hanging over it like the weight of Shad Khan's boat over it. No one wants to touch that area when investors are worried about defaults. The trio may as well be the latest and greatest Berkman II Plaza saga.

I was under the impression Khan foreclosed on just the Barnett Bank building?

You're correct, F.L.O.  Atkins owns the trio outright. 

We don't need a new convention center.

We're awesome as is: #47 baby.

http://m.jacksonville.com/#article=6826C83CECACED560A8FE9CC81C3A5313964

: )

So we're the 12th largest city by population, 40th largest metropolitan area by population and 47th in terms of attracting business meetings and conventions.  One could argue this is a reason to invest in our substandard facilities.

Yes.  And it's frustrating how misused statistics are by this city.

PLUS, there are larger cities with horrible winter climates who are not on the waterfront, let alone in FL, who can be however many times larger but should not necessarily be a larger convention destination.

Not that Jax should match Orlando/San Diego, but quite frankly, Jax should be putting itself in the same sort of bucket as a San Diego or Orlando rather than an Omaha, Kansas City, Indianapolis, etc, *when it comes to convention business AND tourism*.

In other words, Jax is a dismal, horrible, no-excuse underperformer, as per the norm, and yet somehow growth from 0 to 1 and 47th best are spun as positives, patting the city on the back, etc etc.  So frustrating.

With our climate we shouldn't be punching below our weight (and did the news say that this was the first time we'd even cracked the top 50 in years?). Convention Center will be a big future project.

Quote from: simms3 on August 12, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
Yes.  And it's frustrating how misused statistics are by this city.

PLUS, there are larger cities with horrible winter climates who are not on the waterfront, let alone in FL, who can be however many times larger but should not necessarily be a larger convention destination.

Not that Jax should match Orlando/San Diego, but quite frankly, Jax should be putting itself in the same sort of bucket as a San Diego or Orlando rather than an Omaha, Kansas City, Indianapolis, etc, *when it comes to convention business AND tourism*.

In other words, Jax is a dismal, horrible, no-excuse underperformer, as per the norm, and yet somehow growth from 0 to 1 and 47th best are spun as positives, patting the city on the back, etc etc.  So frustrating.

The choir called, they said the preacher already gave the message.   :)

^^^Why can't we have a first rate convention center and everything else we want?

What's frustrating about Jax is it talks about everything and strives for nothing.

What's really frustrating about Jax is the pervasive inferiority complex.

^amen

^The worst scenario is leaving what we have in place.  Even with a new management contract, we'd be essentially lighting public money on fire. The Hyatt, Bay Street Town Center streetscape, Prime Osborn Convention Center, Jacksonville Landing, our isolated Northside Amshack and JTA's proposed Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center are all heavily subsidized public investments.  None of them really work efficiently as presently configured or proposed. A major reason is they aren't well integrated or clustered together in a manner where they can feed off one another. The one thing, from a physical standpoint, that we can do to resolve that forever damning issue is to get the convention center out of the old train station and to convert that train station back to the grand gateway and crown jewel it was originally intended to be.

That alone, resolves a chunk of the city's issues from a public transportation standpoint and lays the foundation for a regionalwide transit network  to grow from. Then relocating the convention center (even with it's present amount of activity) at least places that activity right across the street from the Bay Street/Elbow bars and restaurants, the Hyatt's 966 rooms and two blocks away from the Landing's half empty 125,000 square feet of retail and dining space. Someone mentioned in another thread about looking at various projects within close proximity of one another as a single economic development move.  It makes sense. Imagine if we could find a way to get the Trio, Barnett, Hemming, the Landing and a new convention center off the ground and completed simultaneously. The combined activity would definitely provide a huge economic shot in the arm to nearly every struggling business already invested in the Northbank core.  It would also make those hard to renovate and lease empty buildings and retail spaces, much easier to bring back online.

We'd probably be better off economically, letting Liberty Street fall into the river and taking the $65 million Curry's setting aside to replace it, and spending that money on getting the convention center relocated to the courthouse site.

What about the transportation business?

Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 07:16:46 PMAll of our convention business at present could be easily handled by the sole hotel with its own convention space downtown.

This would be the point of building an exhibition hall adjacent to the Hyatt's ballroom. You'd end up with a consolidated convention center complex and hotel in the heart of the Northbank.....plus you'd have the added benefit of being able to return the most centralized railroad terminal in the state....back into a transportation complex.

To be an "efficient" intermodal transportation complex, we'd be better off getting that exhibition hall out of the spot where passenger platforms used to be. Working around something that doesn't fit only results in us spending more money than necessary for two things that will still ultimately be inefficient. No amount of management is going to truly resolve that particular issue at the current Prime Osborn site.

Stephen,

If management sucks, and the facility sucks (a double whammy), why not correct both?  Having an amazing management team in present facility is like forcing the Jaguars to play at UNF's stadium.  And perhaps we don't have an amazing team that deserves a better center, but a conference center without significant exhibition space as currently offered at the Hyatt would be even more limiting, by itself, as the Prime Osborn is, with its capacity as both a place to host meetings and exhibitions.

Jax is a waterfront city in FL with the potential for significant tourism and convention business based on mild, warm weather climate alone.  You're telling me there is no point in addressing this issue at all until we address a laundry list of others?  It shouldn't be considered asking too much to address this issue and the other issues all at once.  None of this is rocket science.  None of this is actually complicated at all.  The city makes it too complicated because apparently it is lacking actual brain cells, people leave work precisely at 5, and they refuse to create a funding source when they have all the power to.

Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 07:33:07 PMThe hotel has literally proven this point.  It presently books the conventions that would be appropriate for the bread and butter of the Prime Osborn.  Why is the hotel able to book conventions for its facilities, but the Prime Osborn was unable to book the same conventions for 20 years?

The bread and butter events move to larger centers that can accommodate them. We've lost a few over the years.

Quote from: simms3 on August 12, 2015, 07:32:59 PM
Jax is a waterfront city in FL with the potential for significant tourism and convention business based on mild, warm weather climate alone.  You're telling me there is no point in addressing this issue at all until we address a laundry list of others?  It shouldn't be considered asking too much to address this issue and the other issues all at once.  None of this is rocket science.  None of this is actually complicated at all.  The city makes it too complicated because apparently it is lacking actual brain cells, people leave work precisely at 5, and they refuse to create a funding source when they have all the power to.

This is one of the most frustrating things locally. None of this stuff is rocket science. However, we do everything in our power to screw ourselves and spend good money doing so.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2015, 07:39:10 PM

Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 07:33:07 PMThe hotel has literally proven this point.  It presently books the conventions that would be appropriate for the bread and butter of the Prime Osborn.  Why is the hotel able to book conventions for its facilities, but the Prime Osborn was unable to book the same conventions for 20 years?

The bread and butter events move to larger centers that can accommodate them. We've lost a few over the years.

Quote from: simms3 on August 12, 2015, 07:32:59 PM
Jax is a waterfront city in FL with the potential for significant tourism and convention business based on mild, warm weather climate alone.  You're telling me there is no point in addressing this issue at all until we address a laundry list of others?  It shouldn't be considered asking too much to address this issue and the other issues all at once.  None of this is rocket science.  None of this is actually complicated at all.  The city makes it too complicated because apparently it is lacking actual brain cells, people leave work precisely at 5, and they refuse to create a funding source when they have all the power to.

This is one of the most frustrating things locally. None of this stuff is rocket science. However, we do everything in our power to screw ourselves and spend good money doing so.

How about we do a $3 million study on it?  ;)  Sorry, I had to.

^Unfortunately, we've probably already spent $3 million on convention center studies.  We've been talking and studying the idea of building a new convention center at least since the days of Delaney being in office. When it comes to blowing hot air for extended periods of time, we've proven we can't be beat.

Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 07:33:07 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 12, 2015, 07:19:43 PM
What about the transportation business?

Quote from: stephendare on August 12, 2015, 07:16:46 PMAll of our convention business at present could be easily handled by the sole hotel with its own convention space downtown.

This would be the point of building an exhibition hall adjacent to the Hyatt's ballroom. You'd end up with a consolidated convention center complex and hotel in the heart of the Northbank.....plus you'd have the added benefit of being able to return the most centralized railroad terminal in the state....back into a transportation complex.

we could transform the old terminal back into a train station any time we want to.  There is a fantasy about it being a 'convention' 'center'.

In reality its just a mostly empty structure with a sign in front of it.  Might as well call it the Prime Osborn Airport.

I had to come back to this post.  It's got contradictions stamped all over it. I've been to three conventions of various size across the country in the past  three months and I helped coordinate a statewide conference last year. In every situation, we (convention/conference guests) spent big bucks at restaurants and bars within walking distance of the convention facility and hotel. Enough money to put a big smile on the faces of the owners of small businesses like Marks, Olio, Casa Dora, Chomp Chomp, etc. I suspect the same will happen at the next conference I'll be attending in South Florida in three weeks. With that in mind, let me express a different perspective to rest of this particular post.

QuoteFor example, the largest event there is the Black Expo, independently organized by Volume Burks.  Yet there is no support or advertising or adjacent promotion to help grow that expo.  With the slightest bit of encouragement it could probably compete with one of the largest conventions in the United States: The Indianapolis Black Expo.

The Black Expo had 17,000 guests last year. In an earlier post, it was said that the hotel could host conventions just fine without a convention center. An event this size would not fit in any hotel in town. Without the PO, it would be in a place with a better and larger facility like Daytona.

QuoteYet its practically invisible in this city and never a discussion at City pow wows.

Why grow something to the point it will move somewhere else. WIthout a larger and more modern facility with amenities to compete with places outside of Jacksonville's city limits, why bother growing?   

QuoteSimilarly ever year the City invests in a large public Jazz Festival.  Despite the industry conventions that surround the jazz industry not a single organization has been encouraged to schedule their convention in jacksonville.  Not a single proposal.

There are plenty of mid sized conventions in the US. We are in Florida.  Yet none of them book here.  Its not because we don't have a larger facility.

It could simply be that old and outdated +30 year facility we're bringing to the table needs to be taken out back and finally put to death. With that said, let me get back to the original point I was going to make with the Black Expo. Regardless of different contract/promotion talk, no one here can make a logical argument that businesses like Marks, Olio, Underbelly, 1904, Burrito Gallery, the Landing's restaurants, etc. would not economically benefit from an extra 17,000 people walking past their front doors over a 3-day period verses those 17,000 going from convention center entrance, to a surface parking lot, getting in their car and immediately leaving downtown via the I-95 ramp immediately next door to the Prime Osborn. At the end of the day, we're talking about the revitalization of downtown. Better placement of existing facilities that are underutilized, so they can feed off one another is a good method way of advancing revitalization.

QuoteThe hotel has literally proven this point.  It presently books the conventions that would be appropriate for the bread and butter of the Prime Osborn.  Why is the hotel able to book conventions for its facilities, but the Prime Osborn was unable to book the same conventions for 20 years?

And if the hotel is somehow possessed of magical powers, then what about First Baptist, which sponsors one of the largest Pastor's conferences in the United States with not a lick of support from the facilities downtown other than the hotel rooms.

I would love to see the convention business grow. It was part of our old formula for success and new investment.  But management and construction have to be addressed simultaneously.

I'm less concerned about the overall convention business and more interested in making the right moves incrementally that create a vibrant urban core. Relocating and upgrading some substandard facilities, so that the crowds they draw, help support existing struggling businesses and already made public subsidized projects makes a lot of sense from this perspective. I can't vouch for the contract situation one way or the other, but regardless of it, it doesn't reduce the need to cluster complementing uses close together within a compact pedestrian scale setting. Nevertheless, if we really want to see the convention business grow, we can't ignore the reality of having a substandard and out-of-date facility.

The Fire-Rescue East convention was held at the Prime Osborn for 10 years before outgrowing Jacksonville and relocating to a newer and larger convention center in Daytona Beach of all places. Here's a quote from a 2009 article about their decision to leave Jax to move to a smaller community with better facilities:

"When you've got an antiquated convention center, which the Prime Osborn was, with no hotels near it, it makes it hard," Scovotto said. "One year, the vendors had their booths under umbrellas because the roof was leaking." But the biggest problem he had was with the size of the convention. Some of the larger vendor exhibits had to be held in the parking lot, and he was still turning 20 to 25 vendors away each year.
source: http://jacksonville.com/business/2009-12-28/story/jacksonville_convention_centers_having_trouble_attracting_visitors


If we need another real life example, consider the Car & Truck Show. It also has stated that the obsolete Prime Osborn facility is not large enough to facilitate a larger event.

Opportunities for expanding events targeted at this market, such as the Jacksonville Spring Home & Patio Show and the Jacksonville International Car & Truck Show, are also limited. Reyes said associations that produce such events generate 60 percent to 70 percent of their revenue from them.

The Car & Truck Show, produced by event marketer Paragon Group Inc. of Massachusetts, has been at the Prime Osborn for nine years. For the past two years vehicles were placed on the grass lot in front of the Prime Osborn, in the parking lot and in lobbies. The Prime Osborn's doorways were changed to bring more vehicles to the lower rooms, said Barbara Pudney, vice president and show producer at Paragon.

Pudney said changing the doorways helped accommodate the Car & Truck Show's recent growth but an expanded Prime Osborn would facilitate an even bigger and better event.
source: http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/04/23/story2.html?jst=pn_pn_lk

And one last one for the road. In 2009, we lost the annual State Cheer & Dance Championships of Florida to Daytona Beach because of our substandard small exhibition hall. It's been in Daytona seven years now and has grown to 15,000 guests since the move.

DAYTONA BEACH — Nearly 15,000 people are expected to descend upon the World's Most Famous Beach this weekend as the State Cheer & Dance Championships returns for the seventh year in a row and with 340 youth cheer squads – the most participating teams since at least 2009.

Coaches, spectators and athletes will fill the Ocean Center convention complex in Daytona Beach Friday through Sunday. The event is expected to generate more than $3 million to the local economy and fill rooms in more than 20 Daytona Beach area hotels.

Tom Caradonio, executive director for the Daytona Beach Area Convention & Visitors Bureau, said the event is conducive to growing the local tourism industry.

"They come, they have a good time and then they go home and tell their friends," he said. "It's a great event and it's one I think we're fortunate to have for years to come."

Officials with Gainesville-based The American Championships company, which organizes and runs cheerleading competitions, moved their state finals to Daytona Beach in 2009 after experiencing a drop in participation at its former Jacksonville site.

Paul Domingo, associate vice president for The American Championships, attributes the recession and the event outgrowing the venue.
Source: http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20150114/BUSINESS/150119680

All three of these are real life examples of homegrown conventions that we could probably grow and get back if we had a facility that accommodated the needs of those hosting major events in the 21st century.