History Of Tha Streetz: Another Side of Jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Durkeeville-2014/i-8B3rr85/0/L/P1720171-L.jpg)
History Of Tha Streetz Jacksonville - Duval County. A short documentary of Jacksonville hoods by TheRealStreetz.com
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-jun-history-of-tha-streetz-another-side-of-jacksonville
Very interesting, thanks for the upload. I talked about this before and I really really hate beating a dead horse; I think that the 'highway cutting off a street causing mass chaos' is a canard and a convenient excuse to blame someone. Example: Look at Myrtle Ave, Moncrief, 45th St etc etc etc, long stretches of uninterrupted streets with no 'highway cut offs'; Last time I checked, they are in ghetto areas.
In some cases, these dead ends are actually little enclaves of decency. Hardee St off of Kings Rd were my sister's ex mother lives is a dead end cut off by a large train yard. There is no crime in that immediate area, but they may be someone shooting three blocks down. Same thing with my friends grandmother (who since passed on) who used to live on McDaniel Dr (dead end) off of Cleveland Rd. Some of these dead end areas are actually inhabited by decent old people from a bygone era, unlike the sorry new school generation that prevails today in the black community.
I'm tired of these tired old excuses with the black community. I think that many black mothers procreate very recklessly (unlike other races in most cases) with their desired 'bad boys', ultimately creating JR menaces to society; I think that many black mothers (usually with no dads around) long have lost the ability to nurture children. I really wish that I can say otherwise, but I don't think that nothing will ever change in the black community, and if anything it will continue to get worse. Suburbs in most cities will continue to push further and further out because of urban violence. I'm not here to sugarcoat or overlook the cancerous nature of the black community, if you want that, go to MSNBC, Huffpost etc.
Quote from: I-10east on June 19, 2015, 10:13:36 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the upload. I talked about this before and I really really hate beating a dead horse; I think that the 'highway cutting off a street causing mass chaos' is a canard and a convenient excuse to blame someone. Example: Look at Myrtle Ave, Moncrief, 45th St etc etc etc, long stretches of uninterrupted streets with no 'highway cut offs'; Last time I checked, they are in ghetto areas.
In some cases, these dead ends are actually little enclaves of decency. Hardee St off of Kings Rd were my sister's ex mother lives is a dead end cut off by a large train yard. There is no crime in that immediate area, but they may be someone shooting three blocks down. Same thing with my friends grandmother (who since passed on) who used to live on McDaniel Dr (dead end) off of Cleveland Rd. Some of these dead end areas are actually inhabited by decent old people from a bygone era, unlike the sorry new school generation that prevails today in the black community.
I'm tired of these tired old excuses with the black community. I think that many black mothers procreate very recklessly (unlike other races in most cases) with their desired 'bad boys', ultimately creating JR menaces to society; I think that many black mothers (usually with no dads around) long have lost the ability to nurture children. I really wish that I can say otherwise, but I don't think that nothing will ever change in the black community, and if anything it will continue to get worse. Suburbs in most cities will continue to push further and further out because of urban violence. I'm not here to sugarcoat or overlook the cancerous nature of the black community, if you want that, go to MSNBC, Huffpost etc.
More of a low income, uneducated population issue than a race issue in many respects. Ever hung around a beat up old trailer park in the middle of Redneckville, USA?
Quote from: I-10east on June 19, 2015, 10:13:36 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the upload. I talked about this before and I really really hate beating a dead horse; I think that the 'highway cutting off a street causing mass chaos' is a canard and a convenient excuse to blame someone. Example: Look at Myrtle Ave, Moncrief, 45th St etc etc etc, long stretches of uninterrupted streets with no 'highway cut offs'; Last time I checked, they are in ghetto areas.
You're arriving to the party late. While not invested in at the same level as Jax's historically white neighborhoods, many of these black neighborhoods were fine before getting sliced up with expressways and having large swaths of them demolished for housing projects in the mid-20th century. Throw in the end of Segregation, which gave blacks with the means move to better neighborhoods with better schools and you've got some decline on your hands. You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.
Last time I checked their are expressways that run right through many nice areas as well. Blaming crime on a freeway is pretty big stretch in my opinion. I blame it more on a lack of good education, solid families, and a culture that glorifies materialistic property and drugs dealing. When you have something like 70% of babies born into non-traditional 2 parent families your just asking for trouble. The solution starts at home, all attempts besides this will accomplish next to nothing at best. I have lived everywhere from Illinois, NY, NC, Michigan, to Florida and it is the same exact thing in every single place; violence, gangs, drugs, shootings, ect. wrecking havoc on the black communities, generally committed by the blacks themselves. I am in no way saying whites are perfect and don't commit crime b/c that would be idiotic, however at the same time i am not going to act like a pattern does not exist.
^Who's blaming crime on expressways? I'm only sharing with you various factors on how many inner city neighborhoods fell into decline after WWII.
Give me an example of a 1950s era expressway being built through an established urban Florida neighborhood and 9 times out of 10, that neighborhood is economically worse off today than it was originally. Doesn't mean that this is the only cause but it is a factor in what eventually became white and black flight. Assuming that neighborhood is economically worse, it's most likely populated with a high percentage of residents living in poverty (doesn't matter if the race is black, white, yellow, red, etc.). Combine poverty with low educational achievement, limited mobility and no hope you'll end up with higher crime. This stuff isn't rocket science.
Quote from: gerschea@gmail.com on June 19, 2015, 11:15:12 AM
I blame it more on a lack of good education, solid families, and a culture that glorifies materialistic property and drugs dealing. When you have something like 70% of babies born into non-traditional 2 parent families your just asking for trouble.
.... I am in no way saying whites are perfect and don't commit crime b/c that would be idiotic, however at the same time i am not going to act like a pattern does not exist.
Funny that your critique stops there ("lack of good education, solid families, and a culture that glorifies materialistic property and drugs dealing, etc") and doesn't dig deeper. Assuming that what you contend is true, has it ever occurred to you to consider the reasons for this? Why is it that white people are different? Is it just something that is inherent to a particular group? Or is it the result of something?
I think what you mention are symptoms of something greater.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2015, 11:27:29 AM
^Who's blaming crime on expressways? I'm only sharing with you various factors on how many inner city neighborhoods fell into decline after WWII.
Give me an example of a 1950s era expressway being built through an established urban Florida neighborhood and 9 times out of 10, that neighborhood is economically worse off today than it was prior originally. Doesn't mean that this is the only cause but it is a factor in what eventually became white and black flight. Assuming that neighborhood is economically worse, it's most likely populated with a high percentage of residents living in poverty (doesn't matter if the race is black, white, yellow, red, etc.). Combine poverty with low educational achievement, limited mobility and no hope you'll end up with higher crime. This stuff isn't rocket science.
I'm not a planner or any type of expert - but I thought this was pretty much considered to be a settled fact.
Quote from: gerschea@gmail.com on June 19, 2015, 11:15:12 AM
I have lived everywhere from Illinois, NY, NC, Michigan, to Florida and it is the same exact thing in every single place; violence, gangs, drugs, shootings, ect. wrecking havoc on the black communities, generally committed by the blacks themselves. I am in no way saying whites are perfect and don't commit crime b/c that would be idiotic, however at the same time i am not going to act like a pattern does not exist.
Try visiting some areas where poverty exists, despite a low percentage of blacks being present. This will challenge your line of thinking. There's definitely a pattern....but it's not necessarily centered around race.
It hasn't been all that long ago that Arlington was among the most desirable places in Florida. The expressway was already in place, JU was established and Regency had it all... over a mile of it. The population shift that has taken place has wrecked Arlington, though some would argue that it can be turned back. It is an example of a fine neighborhood being overrun by an often lawless element and it's unfortunate that a large number of this group are black, but it also includes particularly Hispanics and low income whites. There is nothing about Arlington or St. Augustine Road/Kings/Powers, that can be laid on being cut up, or having low investment. In 1980, many wealthy and well maintained homes were stretched along St. Augustine Road/Kings/Powers and the only trigger I can find is the many apartment complexes all went to 'section 8' housing.
I think it all boils down to one thing... M O T I V A T I O N ! It might be fixed by motivation+reward. Sad that the kids on the film talk like they are being held down and that some invincible force is waiting to make war on them. 'We going on top?' Really? There is nobody to be on top of, when the final count is taken, there is only 'us.'
It's da stuff white people like. Booya
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 19, 2015, 03:51:17 PM
It hasn't been all that long ago that Arlington was among the most desirable places in Florida. The expressway was already in place, JU was established and Regency had it all... over a mile of it. The population shift that has taken place has wrecked Arlington, though some would argue that it can be turned back. It is an example of a fine neighborhood being overrun by an often lawless element and it's unfortunate that a large number of this group are black, but it also includes particularly Hispanics and low income whites. There is nothing about Arlington or St. Augustine Road/Kings/Powers, that can be laid on being cut up, or having low investment. In 1980, many wealthy and well maintained homes were stretched along St. Augustine Road/Kings/Powers and the only trigger I can find is the many apartment complexes all went to 'section 8' housing.
I think it all boils down to one thing... M O T I V A T I O N ! It might be fixed by motivation+reward. Sad that the kids on the film talk like they are being held down and that some invincible force is waiting to make war on them. 'We going on top?' Really? There is nobody to be on top of, when the final count is taken, there is only 'us.'
We'll let's take a look at Arlington. The expressway and the Mathews Bridge are main reasons Arlington grew in the first place. Arlington is very different from urban neighborhoods already established and built out before WWII. Arlington is one of the earliest autocentric post WWII burbs. Nationwide, when the newness wears off of autocentric burbs, much of the economic investment moves on newer burbs. As housing ages and a certain economic class moves on, it becomes occupied by a lower economic class. Drilling down locally, when people are displaced due to their neighborhoods being demolished (think LaVilla, Blodgett Homes, Durkeeville Housing Projects, Brooklyn, etc.), that population is dispersed to the most affordable places. So 50-year-old apartment complexes like what consumes Justina and some older Westside neighborhoods become dominated by a lower income economic class. Older 20th century burbs like Cedar Hills, Emerson, Baymeadows, etc. face similar challenges. It really has little to do with black and white, even though in the South, we tend to overly focus on color as opposed to our economic challenges and the results of those related politics.
With that said, outside of a few pockets with a high concentration of old multi-family housing, residential Arlington is pretty stable, from what I can tell.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: I-10east on June 19, 2015, 10:13:36 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the upload. I talked about this before and I really really hate beating a dead horse; I think that the 'highway cutting off a street causing mass chaos' is a canard and a convenient excuse to blame someone. Example: Look at Myrtle Ave, Moncrief, 45th St etc etc etc, long stretches of uninterrupted streets with no 'highway cut offs'; Last time I checked, they are in ghetto areas.
You're arriving to the party late. While not invested in at the same level as Jax's historically white neighborhoods, many of these black neighborhoods were fine before getting sliced up with expressways and having large swaths of them demolished for housing projects in the mid-20th century. Throw in the end of Segregation, which gave blacks with the means move to better neighborhoods with better schools and you've got some decline on your hands. You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.
Until some recent investment, parts of Moncrief have looked like a third world country. That is the truth when it comes to investment. However, I think the highway aspect is overblown as well just because those neighborhoods were in decline one way or another due to all the other factors discussed in here. LaVilla was really hurt but North Jax not so much IMO. Actually, Ribault was mostly maintained and used to be a white neighborhood. Still most of the houses on the river are nice, but the area is still crime infested due to drugs with regular murders. The relative location of an accessible and easy freeway may actually lend towards this area improving in the long term because the stock in homes is nice (compared to the areas south of there).
That kid is smiling when he's talking about his dead friends, real cool.
Bigger problem is that the kid is 17 and out on the streets, where are his parent(s)?
Guidance is what thugs need, black or white, doesn't matter.
Quote from: For_F-L-O-R-I-D-A on June 19, 2015, 06:27:48 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: I-10east on June 19, 2015, 10:13:36 AM
Very interesting, thanks for the upload. I talked about this before and I really really hate beating a dead horse; I think that the 'highway cutting off a street causing mass chaos' is a canard and a convenient excuse to blame someone. Example: Look at Myrtle Ave, Moncrief, 45th St etc etc etc, long stretches of uninterrupted streets with no 'highway cut offs'; Last time I checked, they are in ghetto areas.
You're arriving to the party late. While not invested in at the same level as Jax's historically white neighborhoods, many of these black neighborhoods were fine before getting sliced up with expressways and having large swaths of them demolished for housing projects in the mid-20th century. Throw in the end of Segregation, which gave blacks with the means move to better neighborhoods with better schools and you've got some decline on your hands. You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.
Until some recent investment, parts of Moncrief have looked like a third world country. That is the truth when it comes to investment. However, I think the highway aspect is overblown as well just because those neighborhoods were in decline one way or another due to all the other factors discussed in here. LaVilla was really hurt but North Jax not so much IMO.
I think you guys are confused by the development pattern of the city and when actual neighborhoods throughout the city, came into development.
QuoteActually, Ribault was mostly maintained and used to be a white neighborhood.
Ribault and Moncrief were developed at different periods of time. Much of Moncrief was platted and largely developed prior to the Great Depression. From my understanding, it was always black as well. Ribault and much of the neighborhoods outside of the Edgewood loop are suburbs that were developed after WWII. Much of the autocentric growth happened in the 50s and 60s, mirroring Gateway's time as Jax's premier shopping mall. These places were considered aging by the 70s. My parents were one of the first blacks to purchase a home off Locksley Avenue in the early 70s.
QuoteStill most of the houses on the river are nice, but the area is still crime infested due to drugs with regular murders. The relative location of an accessible and easy freeway may actually lend towards this area improving in the long term because the stock in homes is nice (compared to the areas south of there).
1950s freeway construction impacted neighborhoods that were already built up prior to 1950. Neighborhoods in Jax, developed after the Jax Expressway Authority got started, were auto centric and developed as a result of the new highway infrastructure that allowed residents to stay further away from the core of the city. Fast forward 60 years and these suburbs are old, blighted and aging....replaced by newer burbs (River City Marketplace area, Oakleaf, Northern St. Johns County, Kernan, etc.).
FIRST OFF, as for freeways, they always function like the Great Wall of China. Compare that with a, um, streetcar track or bus route and you see why they are community killers. Notice I didn't say compare that with a BRT route because the best BRT systems are narrow freeways with walled off or elevated roadways.
None of this get's better without the motivation on the part of the individuals, however a city that welcomes the homeless, poor, underachievers, etc. should be up to the game of providing a real incentive to get out of that situation. Indeed, if Jacksonville were to offer life changing opportunities, and drill that news down to the lowest, and worst among us, most would take the step up and out of their situation. Of course this takes motivation on the part of both the citizen and the city, but imagine a different Jacksonville...
OKAY HERE I GO DREAMING OF A FIX: (but hey, that's what I do)
I think Oklahoma is on the right track with the 'Oklahoma Military Academy,' in Pryor. My wayward youngest son graduated there some years after his kindergarten class voted him most likely to do 5-10 in Raiford! All the student needs is the okay to attend, zero drug use in a hair test, and the will to hold up under the 45Th Infantry Division's - American Indian toughness. Upon graduation each student received something like 3k from the state, and any student going military after the academy gets a whooping dose of 'CAN-DO' for the future, with the military waving certain requirements or entry at a higher rank. This system works because at the end of the year, every student has a place to go, work choices and enough money for a small apartment rental.
Another school without the military element could function with heavy buy-in from the corporate community. You have to give them a reason to go and that stipend of 3-5k per student is a real incentive. A micro WPA/CCC might be part of this unit.
A independent non governmental school with a community/church (think groups like Save Our Sons) administration functioning on a vocational - technical level and using Oklahoma's generous stipend and employment concepts through the corporate community could really help those that never had the benefit of a family. Groups like Children of the Night, Hookers for Jesus, SOS, are able to drill to the bottom and offer a hand up.
GET THE JAIL and the main police station out of prime downtown real-estate. The police could easily (maybe better) function from a clean modern office building. The jail was once at Imeson and it's a damn shame it's not still there but perhaps it could return.
I doubt homeless shelters at Cecil will function well due to the lack of transportation connectivity, again Imeson or west of I-95 might work...
I completely understand what you are saying and the history in that area (Raines being the traditionally black school/area and Ribault being traditionally white and segregation's role as you spoke of earlier). However, I thought most of the Ribault River area was developed before the interstate came through Jax in 1960.
I also was more just bringing up Moncrief to discuss the lack of investment around there but that the interstate did not have a major role in any issues there. LaVilla, yes, but not in north Jax much. I actually think those areas near the interstate (maybe not the neighborhoods directly fronting the interstate) are primed to revitalize if revitalization inches north from Springfield due to convenience up to the airport and down to DT and Southside for work purposes. The farther west you go, the more difficult I think the revitalization process will be because it is tough to get anywhere. All I am saying is I think the highway may be an asset moving into the future.
The Ribault River area wasn't divided by the interstate. It's also an autocentric suburban area where rapid growth occurred after WWII. The construction of the 20th Street Expressway helped facilitate growth in that area and nearby subdivisions like Sherwood Forest.
The established neighborhoods impacted by the original Jacksonville Expressway, going south from the Trout River would have been portions of Norwood, Moneincrief, Brentwood, Durkeeville, Sugar Hill, LaVilla, Campbell Hill, Brooklyn, etc. All of these areas predate WWII and some date back to the 19th century.
QuoteAll I am saying is I think the highway may be an asset moving into the future.
Perhaps it will be. However, it was a major reason for jump starting their decline during the 50s, when the land clearing efforts began. It cut many of these hoods half, displaced thousands of residents and businesses, took out many of the community amenities (ex. Wilder Park, etc.), and rerouted through traffic from their commercial streets.
Quote from: CCMjax on June 19, 2015, 10:28:57 AM
More of a low income, uneducated population issue than a race issue in many respects. Ever hung around a beat up old trailer park in the middle of Redneckville, USA?
I'll tell you one thing, those people generally don't bother anyone and stay to themselves. They aren't constant shootings of people in rural area trailer parks either.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.
I had a feeling that someone was gonna mention MLK like it's some uncommon, impassable Great Wall of China. I totally but respectfully disagree Lake.
^Who said anything about an impassable Great Wall of China? I just gave you one of things that led to these neighborhood's decline. I assume you believe in black flight? How do you think something like that happens? Obviously, there have to be some negative factors at play that result in those who have the financial means (regardless of race), to leave....thus further sending the area being abandoned into economic chaos.
Anyway, it's totally fine that you disagree. It's already been nationally proven and accepted. Bringing I-10 on board or not isn't going to change reality at this point. One of the things I, and many other planners working in the transportation industry, do on a daily basis is to make sure future projects and infrastructure retrofits are built to be context sensitive. That is, they are designed to be multimodal friendly and to integrate well with the communities they serve and penetrate. The reason public agencies are doing this nationwide is because they've learned from their mistakes in the past and are working diligently for fix them.
(https://bikepgh.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/First-Avenue-Before-and-After-copy.jpg)
A before and after example of a street like State & Union being retrofitted to better serve the neighborhood it penetrates.
Quote from: I-10east on June 20, 2015, 07:06:15 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2015, 10:48:55 AM
You, specifically mentioned Myrtle and Moncrief. Both are great examples of getting hammered by the 20th Street Expressway and I-95 in the 1950s/60s.
I had a feeling that someone was gonna mention MLK like it's some uncommon, impassable Great Wall of China. I totally but respectfully disagree Lake.
I grew up in that area and always wondered why there was a limited-access highway through a standard single family housing district. Theres no doubt it creates a wall, deliberate or not. This divider is a pain in the ass for locals who may simply want to travel three or four blocks, and encourages pass through for others. If not a direct cause for crime and decay, it is arguable a contributing factor, creating dead end streets and geographic boundaries.
Crime and neighborhood deterioration occurs over time and affects local residents regardless of race. The MLK expressway and it's divisive nature were certainly factors for struggling white families from my (baby boomer) generation also. I often felt isolated and overlooked in this area, as if it were something to escape from and a neighborhood my city wanted everyone to rush through, on their way elsewhere.
IMO Main Street is the largest thoroughfare this area ever required, and could have been absorbed into the fabric without creating fraction. Between MLK and I95 one large neighborhood has over time become several, losing much cohesion.
Quote from: I-10east on June 20, 2015, 06:41:23 AM
Quote from: CCMjax on June 19, 2015, 10:28:57 AM
More of a low income, uneducated population issue than a race issue in many respects. Ever hung around a beat up old trailer park in the middle of Redneckville, USA?
I'll tell you one thing, those people generally don't bother anyone and stay to themselves. They aren't constant shootings of people in rural area trailer parks either.
Drugs changed that. The low income white areas got killed by prescription drugs and meth in the last decade. Tons of drug violence has happened as a result and just problems that follow bad decisions. This is mostly overlooked by the media though. I was talking to a tow truck driver my age from Middleburg about how bad the prescription drug issue is around there. He was the poster boy for this but did 6 months in jail and tried to change his life around. Gangs are not a real issue though like in urban black areas in the same way.
^^^I don't think that it's comparable, and black neighborhoods is an unique issue. Everyone always wanna make that 'they do it too' argument concerning violence, but per capita, it's vastly disproportionate, there's no way around it. I really don't get to whole 'everything is okay' argument with the black community, and the deflecting to other communities that are actually much healthier. Decent blacks want a change, and liberals and the like saying 'everything is okay, they do it too' isn't helping the situation.
^Income is also very disproportionate in the areas being singled out. High concentrations of poverty and crime go hand-in-hand. No matter the color, the results turn out the same. Wahneta is an example of a neighborhood roughly 5k residents in my hometown that struggles with crime. However, it's not black....it's 70% white and 47% latino. Meth is a larger issue there than in Jax's inner city neighborhoods. The link between it and some of Jax's crime riddled neighborhoods? High concentration of crime and poverty, instead of color. Nevertheless, it seems you're of the belief that there is something specifically wrong with blacks in general, that other races don't have to deal with, when placed in the same environmental setting. That's difficult argument to prove beyond surface level stereotyping.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2015, 08:02:27 AM
Nevertheless, it seems you're of the belief that there is something specifically wrong with blacks in general, that other races don't have to deal with, when placed in the same environmental setting. That's difficult argument to prove beyond surface level stereotyping.
Nope!!! I never said that all blacks have a problem, that would be very foolish; You put those words in my mouth. Go on and look back at what I said, I covered my ass (a must on PC laden MJ) with words like 'many' blacks not 'all'. I started off with the convo about black people and the often pernicious culture that many take part in (which is in line with this thread) and of course you and others deflect to other races like this is an apples to apples comparison.
The violent crime (specifically) is vastly disproportionate from blacks to other races just like I said earlier. There are many examples of poor people around the country that aren't killing each other at a continuous staggering pace; West Virginia, many rural areas all throughout the Deep South, Midwest etc; Poor Asian and Hispanic areas of places like Brooklyn, and on and on. So the old 'poor = violent crime' argument is a proven canard. People like me that is tired of the BS in our so called 'community' gets vilified for truly taking on these issues.
Like I said, nothing change anyway because enabling is the 'progressive' way. Racism will continue mainly because of these overwhelmingly lop-sided interracial violent crime stats. The PC liberal media (and even some conservatives to some extent) will continue to treat blacks like handicapped children (which truly is racist) with this BS black victimization rubbish, and on and on and on the vicious cycle goes...
Sometimes you sound like you're taking your info straight off a FOX News script. I'm in the middle of putting a few stories together for this week, so I'll have to respond in greater detail a little later.