O.K. Seriously....why isn't there a Taco Bell downtown? Or for that matter, ANY chain fast food restaurant downtown in the core? I know there is a MC D's up around State Street, but seriously- why isn't there a Burger King, Taco Bell, anything...dear God anything but sandwich shops and the 5 restaurants at the landing to choose from?
Before you reply yes- I understand the free market and all of that, but I genuinely find it strange there are no franchise food stores (the pizza at 7-11 does not count, and yes, OK Hooters is technically a franchise) in the core around buildings that house 10K+ workers a day. Hell, probably closer to 20K+ a day. And more coming when Citizens moves into EverBank Center.
What am I missing?
There is a BK downtown... it's closer to the core than McDonalds. There's also; Burrito Gallery, Pita Pit, Chomp Chomp Desert Rider and yes... even a Chick-Fil-A on the south bank on Prudential Drive.
Look around a little. Many of the locally owned places are 100x's better than your average fast food place and cheaper.
Why would you want fast food?!? Fast food is crap food lol go to chomp chomp! :P
Quote from: jaxjaguar on June 04, 2015, 11:24:50 PM
There is a BK downtown... it's closer to the core than McDonalds. There's also; Burrito Gallery, Pita Pit, Chomp Chomp Desert Rider and yes... even a Chick-Fil-A on the south bank on Prudential Drive.
Look around a little. Many of the locally owned places are 100x's better than your average fast food place and cheaper.
You get no disagreement from me about supporting local but cheaper it isn't. I can go to a fast food restaurant and get a whole meal- drink included and within 4 minutes get my food for 5 bucks. I have yet to find a local place that can do that.
On the flip side, like I said earlier, I understand free market principals. Did you know there used to be a Burger King in the Greyhound bus station? Up until the 90's it was there.
I just really...really want a Mexican Pizza every now and then for lunch, without having to get my car and drive to Emerson.
Quote from: benfranklinbof on June 05, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
Why would you want fast food?!? Fast food is crap food lol go to chomp chomp! :P
For the same reason I cant go to Chicago Pizza every day..I need options. ;D
BTW I hear Chomp Chomp is very good. Do they serve Mexican Pizza? ;D ;D
Quote from: Houseboat Mike on June 05, 2015, 12:20:46 AM
Quote from: benfranklinbof on June 05, 2015, 12:02:42 AM
Why would you want fast food?!? Fast food is crap food lol go to chomp chomp! :P
For the same reason I cant go to Chicago Pizza every day..I need options. ;D
BTW I hear Chomp Chomp is very good. Do they serve Mexican Pizza? ;D ;D
IMHO. There are no Chicago Style pizza choices in Jacksonville.
It is odd I have to drive to Orlando (Giordanos) to get proper deep dish pizza. Lou Malnati's will ship to me, but if anyone knows a place in greater Jax where I can get
real deep dish pizza, please share.
Uno's has been franchised into mass production pizza shadows of their originals. Before long they will be in the frozen food section at Publix next to Tombstones.
Surely greater Jacksonville is worthy of a quality Chicago based deep dish pizza establishment?
The cafe in the Bus Depot used to be a Burger King, back in the day.
There used to be a Krystal's under the Fuller Warren Bridge
There used to be more people downtown to support fast food chains, they left to go to the suburbs.
Carmines located on king st have deep dish/Chicago style pizza's. There ten inch pies and there about 4 inches deep. I just got one the other day.
Their
Quote from: Houseboat Mike on June 05, 2015, 12:17:49 AM
You get no disagreement from me about supporting local but cheaper it isn't. I can go to a fast food restaurant and get a whole meal- drink included and within 4 minutes get my food for 5 bucks. I have yet to find a local place that can do that.
Give Chomp Chomp a chance if you haven't tried it yet. Everything on the menu is $7.50 and comes with house made chips or a salad. You'll get much more food and the quality alone will justify the extra $2.50.
Check out some of the pics from their yelp page. http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/chomp-chomp-jacksonville#kcO00L0wrXpQfICENvBEXA
QuoteCarmines located on king st have deep dish/Chicago style pizza's. There ten inch pies and there about 4 inches deep. I just got one the other day.
Warning - Thread hijacking.....Is J-Bill man available for some serious work here?
I don't think Downtown has much in the way of options, either.
BUT...
If you are able to take a drive down main street through Springfield, you'll find a bunch of hole in the wall places and a few franchise spots.
Two of my favorites:
Island Tropics Caribbean - they usually serve 3 different size meals. The medium and large sizes include enough food to feed a family of 6,000.
(http://s3-media3.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/KNHBQJa_04yBkafUlFhOfg/l.jpg)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/island-tropics-restaurant-jacksonville (http://www.yelp.com/biz/island-tropics-restaurant-jacksonville)
Waffa and Mike
(http://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/qUKX1ohdRvb8I8AlR0uBrw/l.jpg)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/wafaa-n-mike-cafe-jacksonville-2 (http://www.yelp.com/biz/wafaa-n-mike-cafe-jacksonville-2)
I get what Houseboat Mike is saying. I worked downtown for a few years and currently over in Riverside for the past 2. Sometimes you just want some Taco Bell, Chik-Fil-A/ Burger King. It would be nice for the downtown workers if there was more fast food options nearby you could walk to. Some days you have an hour and can enjoy the local establishments for lunch, some days you just need to get in and out and get your fix. I eat Jimmy Johns more often then I'd like because of that reason.
Even though i'm right off Riverside ave I still have to use my car if i want to go to more than Fresh Market or Corner Bakery, so I usually shoot over to Emerson (a 5 minute drive) for my Taco Bell fix. Working downtown is different though, usually your car's up in a garage or you lose your spot if you move so it's more of a pain to leave the area.
Really got to try Waffa and Mike.
Chomp Chomp is excellent, but I really wish they would open a Taco Lou in-town somewhere.
Although, I do think we are all guilty of making a drunk late night visit to Taco Bell at times ;)
Just an FYI you can call your order into Burrito Gallery and get in and out of there quick.
There used to be a Firehouse...closed due to lack of business I assume; also, there is a Jimmy Johns now. Both on the North Bank.
I work downtown and I totally get what he's saying. You have 1 hour for lunch and you want to maximize it without having to get your car out of the garage and drive, eat and then spend 15 minutes trying to find another spot in an overcrowded garage.
Because Downtown is a destination. The fast food places you mentioned are synonymous with drive throughs, which are usually visited on said route to a destination and usually on the outskirts.
Why would you need Taco Bell when you have Burrito Gallery? I don't comprehend.
I think the point is that there is a dearth of fast food right downtown, which is super atypical of any downtown. Not sure why this is the case, but having a couple Subways (open 24 hours), McDonald's (again, open 24 hours), and other fast options (perhaps Chipotle) would be typical and a nice, convenient option in any city.
In the Bostons, San Franciscos, and New Yorks of the world, there are "local" fast food joints that are superior (by far) to the national chains but still fast and cheap. Also grab-n-go spots (Proper Food (http://properfood.com/food/) is a super cheap, grab-n-go option opening up 10 new locations here in the financial district).
The other obvious question is why there isn't a single Starbucks downtown. I'm not a fan, myself, but I look at this as some sort of sign that there is an inherent issue downtown if a Starbucks does not see a reason to open a location there. I realize there used to be two. Two would make sense for a city Jacksonville's size. Maybe even 3. Why are the real estate departments of these major major corporations avoiding downtown Jacksonville?
Quote from: Spitfire on June 05, 2015, 02:03:15 PM
Why would you need Taco Bell when you have Burrito Gallery? I don't comprehend.
1) They aren't really serving the same sort of food (even if they both supposedly sell "southwestern" cuisine).
2) Some people don't like Burrito Gallery. I've never been impressed, personally.
3) It's nice to have options.
Quote from: simms3 on June 05, 2015, 03:32:29 PM
I think the point is that there is a dearth of fast food right downtown, which is super atypical of any downtown. Not sure why this is the case, but having a couple Subways (open 24 hours), McDonald's (again, open 24 hours), and other fast options (perhaps Chipotle) would be typical and a nice, convenient option in any city.
In the Bostons, San Franciscos, and New Yorks of the world, there are "local" fast food joints that are superior (by far) to the national chains but still fast and cheap. Also grab-n-go spots (Proper Food (http://properfood.com/food/) is a super cheap, grab-n-go option opening up 10 new locations here in the financial district).
The other obvious question is why there isn't a single Starbucks downtown. I'm not a fan, myself, but I look at this as some sort of sign that there is an inherent issue downtown if a Starbucks does not see a reason to open a location there. I realize there used to be two. Two would make sense for a city Jacksonville's size. Maybe even 3. Why are the real estate departments of these major major corporations avoiding downtown Jacksonville?
It's crazy that Jax doesn't have a Starbucks downtown. I agree 100% that it's a good barometer for what's happening (or isn't) downtown. On a separate note, I was at the St Johns Town Centre one day and realized I could stand in a spot and see three Starbucks locations (sort of) - the main Starbucks, Barnes and Noble (which has a Starbucks) and Target (which has a Starbucks).
^^^Honestly, this is going to sound snobby and I have to preface that I don't drink Starbucks and probably live in one of the top 3 coffee cities in the world with multiple good options on nearly every block of the city, but where do downtown Jax workers get coffee? Beside Bold Bean (in Riverside) and a couple one off places elsewhere in town that are decent, I have no expectations for any mom and pop to be good, at all (in Jax...this is just the honest truth and if you think yo shit good, you need to get out of Jax more). Starbucks would actually be better than the drip I get at these "cafes". And there are no Starbucks downtown. Seriously, where. do. people. get. coffee. downtown? There is a Starbucks, Peet's, and a whole host of other coffee providers on every single block in my downtown and there are lines out the door at every single location, sometimes starting at 5 AM when the traders and bankers start showing up for work. And there is not one Starbucks in all of downtown Jax?!?!?! It blows my mind that this is a possibility.
This goes with the point about McDonald's. You're in the office one day, one day out of the year, and all of a sudden you have a hankering for a Big Mac. Where do you get one? Out of tens of thousands of daily office workers, let alone bums and people passing through downtown for social services and court related stuff, you'd think there's enough of a crowd there to support some McDonald's! And Starbucks. Perhaps a Chipotle.
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 05, 2015, 01:46:25 AM
The cafe in the Bus Depot used to be a Burger King, back in the day.
There used to be a Krystal's under the Fuller Warren Bridge
There used to be more people downtown to support fast food chains, they left to go to the suburbs.
There used to be Krystal at Ocean and Forsyth as well, and a Wendy's on Main somewhere around Duval or Monroe.
And the run through Springfield will take you to a Popeyes and a KFC
But I get it... sometimes you just need Taco Bell.
Quote from: simms3 on June 05, 2015, 06:19:04 PM
^^^Honestly, this is going to sound snobby and I have to preface that I don't drink Starbucks and probably live in one of the top 3 coffee cities in the world with multiple good options on nearly every block of the city, but where do downtown Jax workers get coffee? Beside Bold Bean (in Riverside) and a couple one off places elsewhere in town that are decent, I have no expectations for any mom and pop to be good, at all (in Jax...this is just the honest truth and if you think yo shit good, you need to get out of Jax more). Starbucks would actually be better than the drip I get at these "cafes". And there are no Starbucks downtown. Seriously, where. do. people. get. coffee. downtown? There is a Starbucks, Peet's, and a whole host of other coffee providers on every single block in my downtown and there are lines out the door at every single location, sometimes starting at 5 AM when the traders and bankers start showing up for work. And there is not one Starbucks in all of downtown Jax?!?!?! It blows my mind that this is a possibility.
This goes with the point about McDonald's. You're in the office one day, one day out of the year, and all of a sudden you have a hankering for a Big Mac. Where do you get one? Out of tens of thousands of daily office workers, let alone bums and people passing through downtown for social services and court related stuff, you'd think there's enough of a crowd there to support some McDonald's! And Starbucks. Perhaps a Chipotle.
7-Eleven! They have good coffee - better than most convenience stores. But they aren't a coffee shop and (unless things have changed dramatically since I was a Field Consultant for them 15 or so years ago) you can't get fancy coffee drinks (like a latte or macchiato or flat white or whatever).
But it's about having choices or options. Most people aren't going to want Chomp Chomp or Burrito Gallery, etc every day. Of course, this will all likely change when Jax gets its downtown sorted out and more people start living and working there.
An "I want a particular 'high end restaurant' DT comment = Generally mass agreement.
An "I want a particular regular fast food restaurant DT comment = It's nothing special; Why do you wanna eat that anyway? GMO's yada yada yada...
The man want a Taco Bell DT, why change the subject to local restaurants? So much for having an opinion.
QuoteAnd there is not one Starbucks in all of downtown Jax?!?!?! It blows my mind that this is a possibility.
There used to be one in the 1st floor of 11E and one in the Landing. Kinda shocked too that they are not there, but there is one in San Marco, Riverside and Fairfax Manor/Avondale.
Goes to show you that downtown is NOT a destination, if there isn't a starbucks. For that matter Springfield has been left out too :o
I think the Starbucks comments are extremely relevant but perhaps should have their own thread. Starbucks is a barometer of how your downtown is doing, that is a fair statement and accurate. There was a very busy one in The Landing. It was right out front so there was easy access and good visibility. I never really understood why it closed, you could never get an honest answer, but I'm pretty sure it made money.
The best location for it IMO would have been inside on the water, which would have drawn customers through The Landing as opposed to never actually entering it, as the old setup was. Many customers use Starbucks as a mobile office space, and those folks could have set up with a lovely river view and done their "business" right there. I'm pretty confident if one opened up anywhere downtown it would do great. There used to be a Starbucks kiosk inside the Omni, and I spent money there every morning my work took me downtown (70 mornings per year?). Now they shut that down. I asked the Manager at the ground floor restaurant "why?" and he literally had no answer. I told him he just lost my business and he shrugged his shoulders. That's downtown Jax in a nutshell.
The other day I went to my daughters Sunday afternoon concert with the Jacksonville Symphony Youth Orchestra at Jacoby Hall inside the TU PAC. When it was over I went outside with my son to get the car. The weather was spectacular, clear sunny and warm. We left the TU and went out to the riverfront area, which right there, is actually beautiful. It was pretty much abandoned, maybe 20 people. On an absolutely gorgeous day. It was incredibly beautiful, the perfect day to stroll along the river and enjoy the openess of the space and the beauty of the River. We were pretty much alone. That's downtown Jax. It has unlimited and untapped potential, but our City leadership has either chosen to not do anything about it or does not know how to market it properly. If this had been Pittsburgh or Boston or pretty much any other North American City with a large and beautiful waterfront walkway it would have been crowded with people strolling , enjoying the weather and spending money................. Just not here. The person who can figure out how to draw people downtown to enjoy the Riverwalk will be the one who transforms downtown. And let's be honest, Tony Sleiman has failed, miserably. The urban core is neat but without the River as your destination/focal point it will never really grow into a mature downtown . Just my $.02
Quotebut our City leadership has either chosen to not do anything about it or does not know how to market it properly.
Let's all hope and pray that the NEW administration does more with downtown than the last one.
Quote from: MusicMan on June 06, 2015, 11:14:08 AM
I think the Starbucks comments are extremely relevant but perhaps should have their own thread. Starbucks is a barometer of how your downtown is doing, that is a fair statement and accurate. There was a very busy one in The Landing. It was right out front so there was easy access and good visibility. I never really understood why it closed, you could never get an honest answer, but I'm pretty sure it made money.
The best location for it IMO would have been inside on the water, which would have drawn customers through The Landing as opposed to never actually entering it, as the old setup was. Many customers use Starbucks as a mobile office space, and those folks could have set up with a lovely river view and done their "business" right there. I'm pretty confident if one opened up anywhere downtown it would do great. There used to be a Starbucks kiosk inside the Omni, and I spent money there every morning my work took me downtown (70 mornings per year?). Now they shut that down. I asked the Manager at the ground floor restaurant "why?" and he literally had no answer. I told him he just lost my business and he shrugged his shoulders. That's downtown Jax in a nutshell.
The other day I went to my daughters Sunday afternoon concert with the Jacksonville Symphony Youth Orchestra at Jacoby Hall inside the TU PAC. When it was over I went outside with my son to get the car. The weather was spectacular, clear sunny and warm. We left the TU and went out to the riverfront area, which right there, is actually beautiful. It was pretty much abandoned, maybe 20 people. On an absolutely gorgeous day. It was incredibly beautiful, the perfect day to stroll along the river and enjoy the openess of the space and the beauty of the River. We were pretty much alone. That's downtown Jax. It has unlimited and untapped potential, but our City leadership has either chosen to not do anything about it or does not know how to market it properly. If this had been Pittsburgh or Boston or pretty much any other North American City with a large and beautiful waterfront walkway it would have been crowded with people strolling , enjoying the weather and spending money................. Just not here. The person who can figure out how to draw people downtown to enjoy the Riverwalk will be the one who transforms downtown. And let's be honest, Tony Sleiman has failed, miserably. The urban core is neat but without the River as your destination/focal point it will never really grow into a mature downtown . Just my $.02
+1
Mayor Brown's 4 years did not create the disaster that is downtown Jacksonville. It came from decades of horrible planning and a total lack of a concerted effort by all the major "movers and shakers" in greater Duval.
I just got back from Greenville SC and what they have achieved in their downtown core (in the last 15 years) with far less is nothing short of astounding.
I think that a successful downtown has a diverse selection of dining options. It is good, in my opinion, to have a mix of low-, middle- and high-brow eateries. One reason why I like going to other cities is because I enjoy seeing that a thriving central business district is possible. I am not sure what has been holding us back, but I have seen progress.
I am still confounded as to why Starbucks has not taken hold in downtown Jacksonville. That should be a no-brainer, but this is Jacksonville, I guess.
Back to the topic. I don't begrudge someone their Taco Bell fix. I guess that it's a matter of taste and wanting a quick meal in a short amount of time. I am not a fan of places that seem to be deliberately understaffing and forcing customers to queue up for miles. Big pet peeve of mine.
Quote from: Adam White on June 05, 2015, 05:47:21 PM
Quote from: simms3 on June 05, 2015, 03:32:29 PM
I think the point is that there is a dearth of fast food right downtown, which is super atypical of any downtown. Not sure why this is the case, but having a couple Subways (open 24 hours), McDonald's (again, open 24 hours), and other fast options (perhaps Chipotle) would be typical and a nice, convenient option in any city.
In the Bostons, San Franciscos, and New Yorks of the world, there are "local" fast food joints that are superior (by far) to the national chains but still fast and cheap. Also grab-n-go spots (Proper Food (http://properfood.com/food/) is a super cheap, grab-n-go option opening up 10 new locations here in the financial district).
The other obvious question is why there isn't a single Starbucks downtown. I'm not a fan, myself, but I look at this as some sort of sign that there is an inherent issue downtown if a Starbucks does not see a reason to open a location there. I realize there used to be two. Two would make sense for a city Jacksonville's size. Maybe even 3. Why are the real estate departments of these major major corporations avoiding downtown Jacksonville?
It's crazy that Jax doesn't have a Starbucks downtown. I agree 100% that it's a good barometer for what's happening (or isn't) downtown. On a separate note, I was at the St Johns Town Centre one day and realized I could stand in a spot and see three Starbucks locations (sort of) - the main Starbucks, Barnes and Noble (which has a Starbucks) and Target (which has a Starbucks).
You ever been to San Francisco? There is a SB literally every block. Try doing a google search for SB in SF and look at all the pins.
Someone get on it: http://www.tacobellfranchise.com/faq
http://www.eater.com/2014/12/3/7327133/how-much-it-costs-to-open-a-taco-bell
I'm a little short on cash.
Quote from: menace1069 on June 08, 2015, 08:50:49 AM
Quote from: Adam White on June 05, 2015, 05:47:21 PM
Quote from: simms3 on June 05, 2015, 03:32:29 PM
I think the point is that there is a dearth of fast food right downtown, which is super atypical of any downtown. Not sure why this is the case, but having a couple Subways (open 24 hours), McDonald's (again, open 24 hours), and other fast options (perhaps Chipotle) would be typical and a nice, convenient option in any city.
In the Bostons, San Franciscos, and New Yorks of the world, there are "local" fast food joints that are superior (by far) to the national chains but still fast and cheap. Also grab-n-go spots (Proper Food (http://properfood.com/food/) is a super cheap, grab-n-go option opening up 10 new locations here in the financial district).
The other obvious question is why there isn't a single Starbucks downtown. I'm not a fan, myself, but I look at this as some sort of sign that there is an inherent issue downtown if a Starbucks does not see a reason to open a location there. I realize there used to be two. Two would make sense for a city Jacksonville's size. Maybe even 3. Why are the real estate departments of these major major corporations avoiding downtown Jacksonville?
It's crazy that Jax doesn't have a Starbucks downtown. I agree 100% that it's a good barometer for what's happening (or isn't) downtown. On a separate note, I was at the St Johns Town Centre one day and realized I could stand in a spot and see three Starbucks locations (sort of) - the main Starbucks, Barnes and Noble (which has a Starbucks) and Target (which has a Starbucks).
You ever been to San Francisco? There is a SB literally every block. Try doing a google search for SB in SF and look at all the pins.
Last time I was in SF, it was before Starbucks became a big deal (I think it was 1988 or 1989). I might just Google that to see what you mean.
Edit: but the real question is, how many Taco Bells do they have?
http://www.mystore411.com/store/list_city/15/California/San+Francisco/Starbucks-store-locations
http://www.mystore411.com/store/list_city/87/California/San+Francisco/Taco-Bell-store-locations
Regarding the Starbucks in the 11 E building, am I mistaken, or didn't they have an agreement that the lease was free for a number of years? And to get out of it, they had to pay a penalty? Which speaks to the kind of business they must have been doing, to warrant paying to get out of a free lease. And I know there was a Subway downtown - near Hemming maybe? - awhile back.
Downtown now is different than it was a few years ago, so maybe it would be able to support a coffee shop or a fast food joint better. But someone has to: 1) be willing to take the financial risk, not just put out a press release, and 2) deal with the city's weird downtown sign ordinance. Which does not seem to have hurt 7-11 but downtown was so desperate for convenience stores that I don't see how those could do anything BUT succeed.
It seems like downtown has gained residents over the past few years, but outside of Hemming Plaza when there's an event, the place still looks half empty outside regular 9-5 business hours. It's not enough of a destination, unless you want to hang out at a bar, dance club, or restaurant. There's not any kind of shopping district and the downtown parks are pretty lousy.
Still, this isn't San Francisco, and to compare it to a place like that is absurd.
(For the record - I like Burrito Gallery, but it's not always the fastest. And Taco Bell isn't trying to be authentic Mexican cuisine. It is what it is, and it would be nice to have ANY new quick food choices downtown.)
Quote from: Bativac on June 08, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
Still, this isn't San Francisco, and to compare it to a place like that is absurd.
I wasn't comparing Jax to SF as far as development. If you take a look at my comment, it was in response the person who stated they could see 3 separate SB standing one spot.
{Previous comment - On a separate note, I was at the St Johns Town Centre one day and realized I could stand in a spot and see three Starbucks locations (sort of) - the main Starbucks, Barnes and Noble (which has a Starbucks) and Target (which has a Starbucks).}
Quote from: Bativac on June 08, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
.
(For the record - I like Burrito Gallery, but it's not always the fastest. And Taco Bell isn't trying to be authentic Mexican cuisine. It is what it is, and it would be nice to have ANY new quick food choices downtown.)
Exactly. Sometimes you just want a Mexican Pizza, no matter how absurd the notion of a Mexican Pizza actually is. :)
I have the feeling that the problem is not directly related to the food business but the remaining customer base. Many companies have moved out of downtown for cheaper office space and amenities like free parking. Downtown does not compete with the suburbs so the customer base that buys overprices Starbucks doesn't work there. Remember too downtown is Monday through Friday breakfast and lunch. I suspect Taco Bell needs all day and night to turn a profit.
Personally when the Burger King was open I stayed away because of there were usually more panhandlers around the bus station.
Quote from: Overstreet on June 09, 2015, 09:45:03 AM
I have the feeling that the problem is not directly related to the food business but the remaining customer base. Many companies have moved out of downtown for cheaper office space and amenities like free parking. Downtown does not compete with the suburbs so the customer base that buys overprices Starbucks doesn't work there. Remember too downtown is Monday through Friday breakfast and lunch. I suspect Taco Bell needs all day and night to turn a profit.
Personally when the Burger King was open I stayed away because of there were usually more panhandlers around the bus station.
Good points, but don't forget there is a nightlife downtown, mainly around the elbow. If you centrally locate it around say Laura and Forsyth, it could serve the businesses during the day, and drunken revelers at night.
There should be enough court traffic to have a fast food joint, too. The police station. Homeless population. Etc
Also, it blows my mind the office dynamic in Jax. I refuse to believe the suburbs are that much "cheaper". Rents are basically the same, and in some cases, due to desirability, higher on the SS and towards the beaches than they are in DT Jax. In most cities, there *is* a discrepancy, and often a large one at that, between CBD and suburban rents/costs of housing workers. In Jax, there doesn't appear to be really any discrepancy. Jax also has the cheapest downtown parking of any city in America. Consider that when making these arguments (are companies in Jax overall just "poor" compared to companies elsewhere such that paying for the cheapest downtown parking in America is still too much of a hurdle?).
I think nobody wants to live near downtown, certainly not corporate decision makers. They all seem to live on SS/Beaches, and downtown is no longer on anyone's radar as a place that offers any compelling advantages since the worker base also seems to prefer the suburban/SS/beaches living options over downtown/urban core living options. But this is all only semi-related to fast food downtown.
Quote from: simms3 on June 09, 2015, 11:17:48 AM
There should be enough court traffic to have a fast food joint, too. The police station. Homeless population. Etc
Also, it blows my mind the office dynamic in Jax. I refuse to believe the suburbs are that much "cheaper". Rents are basically the same, and in some cases, due to desirability, higher on the SS and towards the beaches than they are in DT Jax. In most cities, there *is* a discrepancy, and often a large one at that, between CBD and suburban rents/costs of housing workers. In Jax, there doesn't appear to be really any discrepancy. Jax also has the cheapest downtown parking of any city in America. Consider that when making these arguments (are companies in Jax overall just "poor" compared to companies elsewhere such that paying for the cheapest downtown parking in America is still too much of a hurdle?).
I think nobody wants to live near downtown, certainly not corporate decision makers. They all seem to live on SS/Beaches, and downtown is no longer on anyone's radar as a place that offers any compelling advantages since the worker base also seems to prefer the suburban/SS/beaches living options over downtown/urban core living options. But this is all only semi-related to fast food downtown.
Is there any other top 50 metro with this dynamic? Top 75?
QuoteI think nobody wants to live near downtown, certainly not corporate decision makers. They all seem to live on SS/Beaches, and downtown is no longer on anyone's radar as a place that offers any compelling advantages since the worker base also seems to prefer the suburban/SS/beaches living options over downtown/urban core living options. But this is all only semi-related to fast food downtown.
Its obvious as hell that no one wants to live downtown. Why is all of the residential development.....really on the southbank? Strand, Peninsula, and now Healthy-Town? Berkman has too much stigma, falling in streets, a bad Berkman II and its next to the police station, ugh. Might as well be senior living housing next.
Would you spend the same money for a place at the beach or downtown? Dollar for dollar, better options for housing elsewhere in Jacksonville, than downtown. Developers are going to have to use a helluva big carrot to bring dwellers downtown. Businesses, the same.
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 09, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
Developers are going to have to use a helluva big carrot to bring dwellers downtown. Businesses, the same.
Free Taco Bell for a year if you buy a condo? ;D
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 09, 2015, 04:27:15 PM
QuoteI think nobody wants to live near downtown, certainly not corporate decision makers. They all seem to live on SS/Beaches, and downtown is no longer on anyone's radar as a place that offers any compelling advantages since the worker base also seems to prefer the suburban/SS/beaches living options over downtown/urban core living options. But this is all only semi-related to fast food downtown.
Its obvious as hell that no one wants to live downtown. Why is all of the residential development.....really on the southbank? Strand, Peninsula, and now Healthy-Town? Berkman has too much stigma, falling in streets, a bad Berkman II and its next to the police station, ugh. Might as well be senior living housing next.
Would you spend the same money for a place at the beach or downtown? Dollar for dollar, better options for housing elsewhere in Jacksonville, than downtown. Developers are going to have to use a helluva big carrot to bring dwellers downtown. Businesses, the same.
The only people that will live downtown are the sort of people who can't afford to live in places like Berkman, 11E, etc. Artists, musicians, etc. The kind of people that (over time) turn "undesirable" places into up-and-coming places. Gentrifiers.
Once those people start living downtown, businesses will slowly start opening to serve them. But the city and the developers want to skip all that and move right on to the part where young professionals and others want to live downtown. But that can't happen overnight. And you're not going to attract those people unless rents are affordable.
^^^It's almost *never* feasible to develop for people who can't pay market rate. This is a huge issue in San Francisco. The crazy leftist population here is trying to demand that developers build 100% affordable housing, but that's just not how it works, especially when land alone costs ~$200K+/unit.
Building below market rate (BMR) housing, whether for rent or as condos, requires public assistance and a whole different structure to get it done.
Unfortunately, there are very few if any buildings of scale downtown that can be converted to lofts/cheaper housing, on the cheap. Most buildings need A LOT of work are difficult buildings to work with, to begin with (Laura Trio for instance...horribly inefficient and falling apart).
The more people that see this, and the more that leaders wake up to reality and how it works for private sector deal underwriters, the more "work" we can do downtown to get people living there. The other huge component would be jobs. There doesn't appear to be any actual job growth downtown, perhaps there is actually contraction instead. We are seeing that in Pittsburgh, and a few other markets we don't really want to touch if we don't already have exposure in them.
Jax doesn't have jobs contraction overall, obviously, but if downtown itself does, then it loses the most important thing going for it.
I always thought a smart thing would be for the city to develop shared ownership housing downtown. I don't know if that's a thing in the USA, but it's where the person buying the property purchases a percentage of the property and pays rent on the remaining amount (which I believe is - or was - relatively low). They run a lot of these schemes for so-called "key workers" - teachers, nurses, police officers, firefighters, etc. This allows people to get on the property ladder - and helps redevelop areas that need it.
Riverside had a tough stretch in the 80s, but it managed to become a success story because people like artists, musicians and students moved there when rents were cheap and made it the kind of place that had character. The kind of place people want to see Downtown.
One of the problems with downtown is that all the buildings that could be rented out for cheap and turned into artists' lofts keep being torn down. So you're left with expensive new developments or parking lots.
^^^But explain to me these buildings that can be rented out for cheap and turned into "artists' lofts". Which buildings are you referring to? Define "cheap".
Quote from: simms3 on June 10, 2015, 07:19:21 AM
^^^But explain to me these buildings that can be rented out for cheap and turned into "artists' lofts". Which buildings are you referring to? Define "cheap".
My point is that Jax has a history of tearing down buildings that are unoccupied. It would seem make sense to rent out those properties at below-the-market rates in order to encourage people to live there rather than just tear down the buildings and leaving a foundation. I could be totally wrong about this. I've had friends who lived in less salubrious parts of NYC in the 80s and 90s and rented out unfinished spaces that they sectioned up into rooms and made an apartment out of. And they got these spaces for cheap. If you can do it in NYC, surely you can do it in Jax?
I have known people to squat in NYC and kind of make their own home. I have known places like LIC to be filled with artists, but it's also so gritty looking, still, that some people in Jax (especially those opposed to billboards and signs over businesses) would literally have a heart attack just drivng through to get to the Midtown Tunnel. That's a place where the buildings are actually still structurally sound and in better shape than many of the buildings in Jax, and it's LIC, not desirable parts of Manhattan down the street from Burberry or a JPM office (and this is *rapidly* changing). I have worked for a firm that invested in LIC and found an old building to rent out to urban industrial groups, super cheap office space relative to Manhattan, which was the thesis.
If you're referring to big lofts in lower Manhattan or in Harlem, yea, for a short while some may have been rented out to artists for cheaper than market rate in then desirable neighborhoods. You won't find those anymore, and all those buildings were and are basically ready to be occupied. Buildings in Jax are often in TERRIBLE condition and are uninhabitable. Also, there are only a few buildings in Jax, and they are all quite visible. Not exactly what we need for squatters.
I don't think "if you can do it in NYC" is fully applicable to little Jacksonville (little being the key word).
Quote from: simms3 on June 10, 2015, 07:41:25 AM
I have known people to squat in NYC and kind of make their own home. I have known places like LIC to be filled with artists, but it's also so gritty looking, still, that some people in Jax (especially those opposed to billboards and signs over businesses) would literally have a heart attack just drivng through to get to the Midtown Tunnel. That's a place where the buildings are actually still structurally sound and in better shape than many of the buildings in Jax, and it's LIC, not desirable parts of Manhattan down the street from Burberry or a JPM office (and this is *rapidly* changing). I have worked for a firm that invested in LIC and found an old building to rent out to urban industrial groups, super cheap office space relative to Manhattan, which was the thesis.
If you're referring to big lofts in lower Manhattan or in Harlem, yea, for a short while some may have been rented out to artists for cheaper than market rate in then desirable neighborhoods. You won't find those anymore, and all those buildings were and are basically ready to be occupied. Buildings in Jax are often in TERRIBLE condition and are uninhabitable. Also, there are only a few buildings in Jax, and they are all quite visible. Not exactly what we need for squatters.
I don't think "if you can do it in NYC" is fully applicable to little Jacksonville (little being the key word).
I had friends in Williamsburg in the 90s. You can't afford it anymore, but back then they had what was basically a big garage that they sectioned up into rooms. Back in the 80s it was (comparatively) cheap to live in lower Manhattan.
I'm not too clear on what Jax's building stock is like - I moved away over 8 years ago. But my point overall was that - based on the stuff I've read on Metro Jacksonville - we've torn down so many buildings over the past 20 years or so. While I'd imagine many of those weren't in great shape (or fit to be habitable), they can't all have been that bad.
In any event - you can't just skip forward to a fully-developed neighborhood with a thriving nightlife and cafe culture. It takes those wilderness years where those willing to deal with the lack of amenities, etc move into the area and slowly breathe live into it and make it cool or exciting or whatever.
QuoteOne of the problems with downtown is that all the buildings that could be rented out for cheap and turned into artists' lofts keep being torn down. So you're left with expensive new developments or parking lots.
Exactly. Which is why the few buildings still left need to remain.
Quote^^^But explain to me these buildings that can be rented out for cheap and turned into "artists' lofts". Which buildings are you referring to? Define "cheap".
Elena Flats comes right to mind, but any older vacant building in DT or Springfield would certainly be on the list of potentials.
QuoteIn any event - you can't just skip forward to a fully-developed neighborhood with a thriving nightlife and cafe culture. It takes those wilderness years where those willing to deal with the lack of amenities, etc move into the area and slowly breathe live into it and make it cool or exciting or whatever.
+1000. And that is why JAX is getting nowhere. It wants to walk before it even crawls. Forget pie in the sky Shipyard proposals that will never happen. Get the Laura Trio done and save Elena Flats and other similar properties.
Quote from Mtrain: "Its obvious as hell that no one wants to live downtown."
That is not true. Metropolitan Lofts, 11E, The Carling are all full to capacity. Berkman sales are brisk and have recovered nicely from 2009-1010, even the funky Churchwell Lofts are moving pretty well. If there was another building downtown with similar units available right now I believe it would fill up quickly. Pretty sure The Strand is near capacity. Many people who move here from other cities want to live downtown, not in the 'Burbs. They just don't have many choices right now. And many young people/professionals want to live downtown as well, they don't want yards and neighborhood associations to deal with.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 10, 2015, 08:43:45 AM
QuoteIn any event - you can't just skip forward to a fully-developed neighborhood with a thriving nightlife and cafe culture. It takes those wilderness years where those willing to deal with the lack of amenities, etc move into the area and slowly breathe live into it and make it cool or exciting or whatever.
+1000. And that is why JAX is getting nowhere. It wants to walk before it even crawls. Forget pie in the sky Shipyard proposals that will never happen. Get the Laura Trio done and save Elena Flats and other similar properties.
Unfortunately, the reality is that Laura Trio, while on a different scale and with a different "face", is about as pie in the sky as the Shipyards. With enough demand, there are more developers who know how to put up well done new construction, easily. There are very few developers who actually know what they're doing with really old buildings such as the Laura Trio. Add to that the fact the Laura Trio itself is not built for today's uses. Meaning, it needs A LOT of work just to be brought up to code, but it also needs complex additions just to get a floorplate that accomodates today's code and space needs for [insert use/tenant here]. That is absolutely not cheap and can't be "value-engineered".
Williamsburg in Brooklyn was mentioned by Adam White, as was Long Island City, by me, as places with a lot of old "no frills" buildings that could be converted to artists' lofts or cheap housing/creative office space/light industrial. Even today under insane demand/rent pressures and widescale changes, these two areas remain those kinds of places in New York City. Jax doesn't really have any equivalents. It has a few sporadic buildings that are probably in good enough shape to house a use or some renters/"artists" for dirt cheap. The Laura Trio is not one of these buildings, and unfortunately, Jacksonville landlords and the City of Jacksonville have not only torn down or allowed to be torn down too much of the building stock, but a lot of what remains is truly on the verge of needing to be torn down. There will come a point of no return for some buildings - whereby they cannot feasibly be retrofitted or restored to a new use, if there is no urgency to get stuff done. And the amount of money to get some of the more important buildings done (Laura Trio, likely Barnett Bank building too, and of course the little guys like Bostwick and Marble Bank) means that the only thing that can justify the funds spent is some upper market use (i.e. a fancy steakhouse, or market rent yuppie renters, a hotel chain like Marriott/Courtyard, etc etc).
The city needs to understand this and decide if it wants these buildings restored, or not. Because to restore them is going to require city funds. A lot of city funds. The private sector will not be able to underwrite doing anything to these buildings without that huge leap by the city.
Quote from: MusicMan on June 10, 2015, 10:56:40 AM
Quote from Mtrain: "Its obvious as hell that no one wants to live downtown."
That is not true. Metropolitan Lofts, 11E, The Carling are all full to capacity. Berkman sales are brisk and have recovered nicely from 2009-1010, even the funky Churchwell Lofts are moving pretty well. If there was another building downtown with similar units available right now I believe it would fill up quickly. Pretty sure The Strand is near capacity. Many people who move here from other cities want to live downtown, not in the 'Burbs. They just don't have many choices right now. And many young people/professionals want to live downtown as well, they don't want yards and neighborhood associations to deal with.
In most markets, there are no better experts than the real estate community, particularly investment managers. If they aren't plunking $$$ down to build apartments in the city, then there is some underlying reason why. We've seen some money recently come into the city that could be part of a diversification strategy, or because those firms are bullish on the urban core of the city - remains to be seen. There isn't much of a price differential on land/unit between downtown and well-located SS parcels, nor is there a difference in construction costs. So it could be more of a macro bet on the market with a tint towards downtown optimism for a longer term hold. We'll know for sure if there is a burgeoning demand from young people to live in the city if 220 Riverside and the other one lease up quickly at ask.
If not, there is either a lack of people who can pay those rents (which means there is a lack of high paying jobs...and while we know that to be the case relative to some cities, we know there are high paying jobs in Jax with certain rental rates achieved out by SJTC that have broken area records), or it means there really is not much demand.
Just consider that even with Strand and 220 Riverside, asking rents in Jacksonville are now a solid 20-30%+ below what similar developments are asking in Nashville and Charlotte.
The smaller 1 BR plan at 220 Riverside is asking $1170/mo for 701 sf for a 12 month lease, which is about $1.66/sf. Easily would be $2.25+ in Charlotte, Atlanta, or Nashville. Probably $1.85+ in Birmingham if you can believe it. More I'm sure in Orlando/Tampa (though I don't know those markets at all). Easily close to $3/sf in Austin, and probably ~$7-8/sf in San Francisco (well it would be a 701 sf 2 bedroom for $6.50/sf :) )
QuoteUnfortunately, the reality is that Laura Trio, while on a different scale and with a different "face", is about as pie in the sky as the Shipyards.
Color me skeptical to say the least. What is wrong with what Steve Atkins proposed as far as uses? The buildings are gutted to the exterior walls are they not? What would be the 'code violation' in a total gutted building?
Will it need incentives? Of course, that is a given, but nothing compared to what the Shipyards will require ($35mm just for remediation and you KNOW that is just the beginning). There are Historic Tax Credits available for the Trio that would not be available for Shipyards or any new construction as well.
The problem is the city has no money and without that, the deal simply doesn't work. Put the same buildings/situation in any other city and it would happen. It is not the buildings themselves or their specific location that is the problem. Lack of demand for offices and residential does make things more complicated but that would apply to Shipyards too, only more so.
^^^Relativity is what is important here. Incentives as a percentage of the capital stack of the deal? Much much higher for Laura St Trio. And I don't consider the city spending $35M to clean up its own land before the private sector can come in and develop it "incentives". It's just necessary procedure that should have been done as soon as the Shipyards were closed.
In terms of code, I'm sure Lakelander, who is an architect by trade and knows those buildings, has an idea of the kind of work necessary to obtain a certificate of occupancy. But beyond that, I don't think there's much feasibility, if any at all, to just restore the present day floorplate. It could potentially be incrementally cheaper per square foot to add new construction to these buildings to expand the floorplates and increase the range of uses, which makes not doing that absolutely moronic. Not to mention, bathroom cores/stairwells/elevators and fire access are all different under today's codes than they were 100 years ago when these buildings were built.
The difficulty is not only restoring the buildings as they are, but in going with the wise (and potentially necessary) choice to expand the floorplates with add-ons, one cannot fuck up the design and integration of mixing styles and eras. There are relatively few people in this entire country who have the appropriate taste and expertise to do that at all, let alone well. It generally requires high quality materials and a more old world craftsmanship of construction, both of which you won't find easily in cheaper Sunbelt markets like Jax (and neither is inexpensive).
^^ There have been many 1920's era buildings restored to productive use, including in the SE. 11E. and The Carling being two. The SF of either of those buildings probably exceeds the three Trio buildings combined. Again the buildings are gutted. How can a bathroom be non-compliant with ADA, if it no long exists? Are you not free to build to whatever specifications required within the exterior walls? Can you not building a new stairwell/elevator core adjacent to the new buildings. I believe that is in fact what was planned.
The remediation is still $35mm no matter what you call it. It is money the city will have to front and doesn't have.
11 East and the Carling were not in as bad a shape as the Laura Trio, and their floorplates were far more conducive to strict rehab without any new additions or major modifications.
In terms of compliance, no you cannot just build a bathroom as you see fit. Besides the obvious ADA compliance (which changes about every 2 years and has likely changed several times over just in the time there has been a proposal to rehab the Trio), there are riser issues and capacity issues that are treated no differently than ADA in the eyes of local/state code. That's just the bathrooms. Then there is code for fire access up and inhabitant access down. Then there are specifications for elevators. Then there is trying to fit all this in an efficient manner in those tiny, inefficient buildings while leaving enough space to generate an income stream by selling/renting space to third party(s).
Speaking of, in a hotel or rental/condo configuration, you then have to create "stacks" of floorplans, each with its own bathroom/kitchen/utility infrastructure. If you are talking to a certain hotel or trying to get an operator for some boutique, they will have their own thoughts on what kind of room configurations work. The rental market in DT Jax, particularly at Carling and 11 East, has proven to be difficult, at best. And those buildings were easier!
My whole point is that this is one very complex endeavor, even if small by most standards. It is made easier when the endeavor is made a little larger by expanding the floorplates of these buildings (the cost to rehab core and shell of existing structure on a per square foot basis is so great that you'd need serious record record rents to make a return that justifies the risk...and getting those rents is a major part of that risk!).
My other point, following from that, is that it may actually be cheaper, per square foot, to tack on new construction to the existing structures, even if you do it well with quality materials/design. In that case, it makes NO sense to NOT do that, but it requires a bigger equity check (and it would appear nobody has the equity check to even do just one of these things).
I could go on, but I'm tired.
RE: $35M cost to city to remediate (or in clearer and actually more accurate terms, "clean up") city-owned land along the waterfront that could be developed in the future and potentially generate huge tax earnings if the city doesn't give all that away in incentives, is totally separate from actual incentives for one specific project or a "specific plan" as may be adopted for the Shipyards.
Separate bucket. Separate responsibility.
So the city doesn't have money. Welcome to the world of all cities/taxing jurisdictions. Even cities that do have money to go around must still make choices about priority. Or decisions to raise or lower taxes. Jax has all of these options at its disposal.
In an absolute perfect world, a private developer would come in and clean up the land and develop it, and pay the city's ridiculous fees and "legal bribes" and grease palms and make everyone happy and give in to most if not all demands, etc etc. When and where does this happen, ever? San Francisco right now. Not San Francisco 5 years ago. It really almost never happens anywhere, and will never ever be the case in Jacksonville. Get used to the city having to pay to clean up its own land and give incentives away to both attract companies for relocations and to get developments off the ground. Right now the economy is good. Strike while the iron is hot! If not done now or within a year or two, it certainly won't get done in the next down cycle when shit hits the fan.
QuoteThat is not true. Metropolitan Lofts, 11E, The Carling are all full to capacity. Berkman sales are brisk and have recovered nicely from 2009-1010, even the funky Churchwell Lofts are moving pretty well. If there was another building downtown with similar units available right now I believe it would fill up quickly. Pretty sure The Strand is near capacity. Many people who move here from other cities want to live downtown, not in the 'Burbs. They just don't have many choices right now. And many young people/professionals want to live downtown as well, they don't want yards and neighborhood associations to deal with.
You are fooling yourself if you think there are enough choices for downtown living to entice people to live there as compared to elsewhere in Jacksonville. Just not enough options for them. The last new downtown project was during the Peyton era. The fact that Brown has tried to use an annual event (OneSpark) some smoke and mirrors and a few parties to drive more development is not lost on me or others.
For the same $$$ you can live closer to destination places. No one comes to Jacksonville and says "Hey the action is downtown, I want to live there." Not even young people can be lured with smoke and mirrors these days. I give 'em more credit than being sucked in by a man who offers them a party once a year and then turns them to turn into donkeys.
Roll this into a Burito loopA
2014-190
2014-305
2014-412
2014-560
Visit the RIO ST. JOHNS as you are transported from one illegal side of the river to the other illegal side of our unamerican river.
So this thread starts off about a lack of a Taco Bell downtown and it's already morphed into something completely diff....look, a pink zebra!!!!!
Quote from: menace1069 on June 11, 2015, 08:31:26 AM
So this thread starts off about a lack of a Taco Bell downtown and it's already morphed into something completely diff....look, a pink zebra!!!!!
Happens all the time on the MJ forums. There's only so much one can say about fast food availability.