QuoteAmerica Has Half as Many Hypersegregated Metros as It Did in 1970
That's the good news. The bad: U.S. cities aren't necessarily more integrated.
A city is "hypersegregated" if it meets four of the following five criteria:
1. Black residents are "unevenly distributed," geographically; that is, the percentage of blacks within residential areas doesn't mirror their citywide population share.
2. Black residents are isolated—they predominantly live in African American neighborhoods and don't tend to have that much contact with white residents.
3. These neighborhoods are clustered together in certain parts of town as "one large, contiguous ghetto" as opposed to being scattered across the city.
4. The black population is highly concentrated these small, geographically compact areas.
5. These residents tend to live in the urban cores of the city.
The concept of hypersegregation was developed in 1989 by Douglas Massey, currently a sociologist at Princeton and director of the university's Office of Population Research. Its social effects are predictably terrible: poverty, crime, and bad schools among them. But as Massey reports in a new paper in the journal Demography, the number of U.S. metro areas suffering hypersegregation seems to be on the decline—down from 40 in 1970 to 21 in 2010.
(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2015/05/map1-1/1a8d2f7e2.jpg)
Full article: http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/05/america-has-half-as-many-hypersegregated-metros-as-it-did-in-1970/393743/
It always amazes me that people think because they live a certain way everyone else must too. I live in Avondale, and yesterday I came home to 3 black, 3 white and 1 mixed teenagers laying around my house. I am only related to my incredibly handsome mixed son, so I haven't seen anything close to segregation in 18 years.
I was in Baltimore last weekend. Based on just my time in Jacksonville and seeing Baltimore last weekend, I'd buy this study. Baltimore seemed incredibly segregated.
One of the cool things about living on the northbank and adjacent to Springfield is the ethnic diversty.
"Hypersegregation" is a term referring to a specific phenomenon. A community not being "hypersegregated" doesn't mean segregation doesn't exist (especially in certain areas), let alone that a city is well integrated, it just means that specific phenomenon doesn't exist there.
These days, while there are parts of town that are are mostly black or mostly white, it's not the case that the bulk of African-Americans live in those isolated neighborhoods. In fact, I'd doubt even half the African-American population does. So most parts of the inner Northside and Northwest are mostly African-American, more African-Americans live in more mixed neighborhoods in the Westside, Arlington, old Southside, and Northside around and above the Trout River, as well as mixed into the majority-white neighborhoods all over.
This would mean Jacksonville is likely not hypersegregated, but as the article notes, degrees of segregation can still exist in cities in a more localized and dispersed scale.
Metro Jacksonville ran a really cool series of maps for various cities, I'll try to dig it up if Ennis doesn't beat me to it.
Here it is, from 2010:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-oct-race-and-ethnicity-in-urban-america
This is the picture of Jacksonville for that time:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Urban-Race/i-NN3DbV5/0/M/Jacksonville-M.jpg)
Here's the more classically hypersegregated Chicago:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Urban-Race/i-ztTztzX/0/M/Chicago-M.jpg)
Quote from: CG7 on May 22, 2015, 09:26:33 AM
It always amazes me that people think because they live a certain way everyone else must too.
This isn't just people, it's Murder_me_rachel, whose experience trumps all!
you're right PR it is MMR. I'm just glad I don't live in his world.
Jax is one of the most underrated cities when it comes to race relations in the US. There's alot of bad things (I'm not getting all into detail) that happens frequently in other metros, that are virtually non-existent in Jax.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 22, 2015, 01:22:54 PM
Quote from: CG7 on May 22, 2015, 09:26:33 AM
It always amazes me that people think because they live a certain way everyone else must too. I live in Avondale, and yesterday I came home to 3 black, 3 white and 1 mixed teenagers laying around my house. I am only related to my incredibly handsome mixed son, so I haven't seen anything close to segregation in 18 years.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on May 22, 2015, 12:07:25 PM
Quote from: CG7 on May 22, 2015, 09:26:33 AM
It always amazes me that people think because they live a certain way everyone else must too.
This isn't just people, it's Murder_me_rachel, whose experience trumps all!
Uh, I never said anything about people must live exactly the same way I do, did I? Nor did I say anything about my experience trumping anything, did I? Since you all apparently lack reading comprehension skills, I will help you out: No, I didnt. I guess everyone must live some magical multi-racial world because you do CG7?
I simply said, in my experience, as a white, upper-middle-class, longtime resident of this city, I find Jacksonville to be highly segregated, despite the findings of this study. Moreover, I cited the criteria for the study and my thoughts on them. If your mileage varies, cool, I would love to hear it. That's much more informative than shit-talking me for something I didn't say.
Lol, you seem strangely sensitive. I was alluding to your comments in numerous other threads. In any case, your viewpoint really doesn't bother me much but I can't imagine you honestly don't have the self-awareness to recognize how you come across on internet forums.
If I knew you in real life I bet I would find you engaging and entertaining, so don't take my jab personally. Given your online persona, you should be expecting these reactions.
When we moved from DC to Jax (in 2009), we were actually surprised by the amount of integration. There seemed to be an inordinate amount of mixed race couples around town. Also, the lower SES youth seem to all be a part of hip hop culture and hang out in mixed race groups. It was a big surprise as I fully expected to see a lot more racism and general "southiness." We always love when we see a middle-aged white guy that we would have assumed racist having a great convo with a black guy. It happens way more often than one would think.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 22, 2015, 04:37:55 PM
Fair enough. It is just that with something as sensitive as race and segregation, did not want my comments perceived in the wrong light. Sorry to act like a butt hurt weenie.
lol. fwiw, I never did share my viewpoint, which is that Jax does still feel rather segregated. But it's also not as bad as other parts of this country, nor, apparently, as it used to be.
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on May 22, 2015, 05:28:20 PM
When we moved from DC to Jax (in 2009), we were actually surprised by the amount of integration. There seemed to be an inordinate amount of mixed race couples around town. Also, the lower SES youth seem to all be a part of hip hop culture and hang out in mixed race groups. It was a big surprise as I fully expected to see a lot more racism and general "southiness." We always love when we see a middle-aged white guy that we would have assumed racist having a great convo with a black guy. It happens way more often than one would think.
Are you thinking DC has worse segregation, or just that you had low expectations before you moved. Just curious? Apparently DC, like Jax, has improved in this regard since the 70s.
All minnows of a certain color and size tend to swim together. Perhaps it's not some evil conspiracy to hold back various races but a natural tendency of mankind to be with his own family. As a kid that ran wild through the streets of Jacksonville in the 50's and 60's along with my little black sidekick Tommy Garcia and Robert West, I never felt like we've been nearly as segregated as other large American cities. While there are clearly ethnic neighborhoods peppered throughout the city, none of us ever had a care if we were in a white, black or Hispanic house. So while on a map it might look like all of the NW side of Jax is black, but no one I knew back then cared who 'was coming to dinner.' The lid on the house might have been black, or in my case white, but the people inside were JAXSONS!
Quote from: stephendare on May 22, 2015, 04:11:32 PM
Quote from: I-10east on May 22, 2015, 04:04:07 PM
Jax is one of the most underrated cities when it comes to race relations in the US. There's alot of bad things (I'm not getting all into detail) that happens frequently in other metros, that are virtually non-existent in Jax.
I agree. Its not enough, we can do better. But we are doing better than many other places. Other than a couple of eras and leader groups, the actual people here have a very long history of tolerance against the backdrop of the rest of the south.
Yep. And honestly, having lived & traveled all around the northeast urban areas (and that means nose to the street type living), I'll tell you right now that in many ways race relations down here are MUCH better than they are up there. Which is kinda funny seeing that most up north see the south as "backwards". Meanwhile everything gets turned into a race topic up there whether it is or it isn't. It's a bit nuts IMO.
Things happen here, sure. But you hardly hear of them, esp in just normal everyday things. Up there its constant.
Yeah, Milwaukee is so damn bad I think I saw color stripes painted on the floors of the VA facilities to keep everyone within their proper place.
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Hate-Racist-Mail-Flyer-Long-Island-New-York-Lindenherst-Black-Family-Leave-Town-Community-304752391.html
Being black, I've lived on on south side twice, Arlington once, and on dunn ave...and I was raised on the north side. And now i stay on the westside. Moving around as much as I have I will say jax us much more diverse than its given credit for.I've always stayed in mixed areas and have always had neighbors of all races
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 24, 2015, 11:09:58 PM
Being black, I've lived on on south side twice, Arlington once, and on dunn ave...and I was raised on the north side. And now i stay on the westside. Moving around as much as I have I will say jax us much more diverse than its given credit for.I've always stayed in mixed areas and have always had neighbors of all races
And a white athlete as your avatar! Score! 8)
In the spirit of this thread I have just changed my avatar to Bob Hayes. A hero to every Jax kid in the 60's. Duuvaall!!
Things definitely differ based on place and time. Growing up in Neptune Beach in the 80s and 90s, I recall only one black family living there the entire time, and only for a few years. A number of Hispanics, though, including my next door neighbor and later, my family. I've had black neighbors in every place in town I've lived since (though Ponte Vedra didn't have many). My current house is in a part of San Marco I understand to be a historically white, working class neighborhood, and I have a number of black neighbors now.
Again, that's not to say segregation in local or proportional forms doesn't exist here. But it does seem to be the case that hypersegregation, in the way sociologists use that word, no longer exists here.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 27, 2015, 10:22:28 AM
Things definitely differ based on place and time. Growing up in Neptune Beach in the 80s and 90s, I recall only one black family living there the entire time, and only for a few years. A number of Hispanics, though, including my next door neighbor and later, my family. I've had black neighbors in every place in town I've lived since (though Ponte Vedra didn't have many). My current house is in a part of San Marco I understand to be a historically white, working class neighborhood, and I have a number of black neighbors now.
Again, that's not to say segregation in local or proportional forms doesn't exist here. But it does seem to be the case that hypersegregation, in the way sociologists use that word, no longer exists here.
I grew up in East Arlington. I remember when the first black family moved into our neighborhood. It was actually considered a bit of a scandal - I remember my next door neighbour being very upset about it.
That neighborhood has changed a lot since then and is very mixed now. I looked at my old house on Google street view a few years back and it appeared that a black family was living there now.
I think things have changed a lot in Jacksonville since the 1980s.
I grew up in the northeast and was shocked when i came down here. I always had this picture in my head of the south being so racist compared to the north and i found the exact opposite thankfully. Growing up in the north there is the black and the white part of town, its just how things are. In Buffalo main street in the divider for the most part and it is crazy how defined the two separate areas are. The northerners shit talk the southerns on being so racist when in reality the north is worse.
^^^+100
Racism is a problem everywhere (more or less). Though in my experience, Jacksonville is pretty bad - but the USA in general has serious issues.
Racism is a two way street. Black on white crime is virtually ignored and denied by any kind of mainstream (esp liberal) media, and alot of racism can be blamed on that. Racism is like a band saw blade, a continuous looping action; Modern day racism isn't all isn't attributed to the man in the pointy hat like many think. If a group of 16 year old white boys attack a 62 year old black grandmother, and it's racial component is ignored and denied by the media, that grandmother's family is likely gonna feel some type of way racially; It's no different in a vice versa race scenario.
IMO the KKK is a shell of themselves, and much of their power is in rural podunk towns. IMO many larger cities have much much much more black on white crime (the knockout game, mob attacks etc) than Jax; Usually the more liberal the city is, the more those style attacks occur.
Quote from: I-10east on May 27, 2015, 12:38:35 PM
IMO the KKK is a shell of themselves, and much of their power is in rural podunk towns. IMO many larger cities have much much much more black on white crime (the knockout game, mob attacks etc) than Jax; Usually the more liberal the city is, the more those style attacks occur.
Do you have any stats to support that - especially the last bit about liberal cities? I know you typed "IMO" but it seems a pretty strong statement.
Quote from: gerschea@gmail.com on May 27, 2015, 11:49:56 AM
I grew up in the northeast and was shocked when i came down here. I always had this picture in my head of the south being so racist compared to the north and i found the exact opposite thankfully. Growing up in the north there is the black and the white part of town, its just how things are. In Buffalo main street in the divider for the most part and it is crazy how defined the two separate areas are. The northerners shit talk the southerns on being so racist when in reality the north is worse.
I personally feel a big factor in how you accept and treat people different from you is mobility. We joke about how closed-minded the South tends to be, but when I moved up North and met many people who seemed just as ignorant. Although many up North eventually moved away for better opportunities, they left behind a number of people that were tied to the neighborhood because of family, work, health, or just plain dreaded being anywhere else and were not just wary of who was moving in to their community, but were also apprehensive about what big national chains or frou-frou small businesses were setting up shop. I didn't necesarily consider them racist so much as protective, but it still could be perceived as such. And if you were moving to a new part of the world seeking better opprtunitites for your family, how could you talk ill of anyone that doesn't look like you when you know they're taking the same life-changing chances for their family that you are?
Reminds me of an old saying, "The less you have traveled, the more you think you know."
Quote from: Adam White on May 27, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Do you have any stats to support that - especially the last bit about liberal cities? I know you typed "IMO" but it seems a pretty strong statement.
I'm wanna preface by saying thank you MJ for not ripping my head off for my self acknowledged controversial statement, thank you, I really mean it. The liberal cities I'm talking about are many places like Baltimore, Philly, and others, particularly in gentrified neighborhoods; So likely a Portland or Austin will not have much of that. Things like I mentioned happens all of the time.
There are plenty sources of info, FBI stats. Colin Flaherty (people gonna be like ohh no, Fox News, he's a racist bad guy blah blah blah) on youtube is a good source of info on this; All he do is play the local news throughout this country, and you can see the clips for yourself. I can care less about the republican or democrat statuses, and withholding either of all the parties ideologies, but what I'm into is the absolute truth, no matter who's speaking on it.
Quote from: I-10east on May 28, 2015, 08:40:25 PM
Quote from: Adam White on May 27, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Do you have any stats to support that - especially the last bit about liberal cities? I know you typed "IMO" but it seems a pretty strong statement.
I'm wanna preface by saying thank you MJ for not ripping my head off for my self acknowledged controversial statement, thank you, I really mean it. The liberal cities I'm talking about are many places like Baltimore, Philly, and others, particularly in gentrified neighborhoods; So likely a Portland or Austin will not have much of that. Things like I mentioned happens all of the time.
There are plenty sources of info, FBI stats. Colin Flaherty (people gonna be like ohh no, Fox News, he's a racist bad guy blah blah blah) on youtube is a good source of info on this; All he do is play the local news throughout this country, and you can see the clips for yourself. I can care less about the republican or democrat statuses, and withholding either of all the parties ideologies, but what I'm into is the absolute truth, no matter who's speaking on it.
Assuming this is true, it may have to do with the fact that the majority of really large, densely-populated cities in the USA happen to be in areas that are more politically liberal. As it is, cities tend to be more liberal than rural areas.
If you figure that higher-crime areas tend to be poorer areas, it would not seem unreasonable to assume there would be more crime in areas where there are a lot more poor people.
Crime also tends to happen more in densely populated areas. And although you might have higher incidences of crime within a particular community, it's more likely that criminal acts will occur against members of another community when they live in close proximity to each other - especially when poor people and wealthier people live cheek by jowl.
I would be surprised if the higher rates of black-on-white crime was a function of liberalism or the political orientation of these places - it would seem more likely that it stems from a combination of other factors.
I do seem to recall a number of small towns in Florida that were still segragated like it was the 1960s. I think Oprah did a story on it. And I remember visiting Fitzgerald, GA numerous times with an old girlfriend and being shocked that white people and black people just didn't mix or interact at all (except at the Walmart). Each community had its own shops, restaurants, etc.
Growing up in Englewood and coming of age in the in town neighborhoods i always had a diverse set of friends. It wasn't until recently I experienced culture shock when moving out to Mandarin and hanging with friends in St. Johns county that I realized the whole city wasn't as diverse. (32223 is 92% white, wow!) Not that there's anything wrong with that, i'm part of the 92% out there, but I always just always looked at Mandarin and the outer lying counties as bit sheltered when dealing with other races... But to the point of the thread there's plenty of integration, especially the further north you go in that part of town.
Quote from: Adam White on May 29, 2015, 01:46:34 AM
Assuming this is true, it may have to do with the fact that the majority of really large, densely-populated cities in the USA happen to be in areas that are more politically liberal. As it is, cities tend to be more liberal than rural areas.
If you figure that higher-crime areas tend to be poorer areas, it would not seem unreasonable to assume there would be more crime in areas where there are a lot more poor people.
Crime also tends to happen more in densely populated areas. And although you might have higher incidences of crime within a particular community, it's more likely that criminal acts will occur against members of another community when they live in close proximity to each other - especially when poor people and wealthier people live cheek by jowl.
I would be surprised if the higher rates of black-on-white crime was a function of liberalism or the political orientation of these places - it would seem more likely that it stems from a combination of other factors.
I do seem to recall a number of small towns in Florida that were still segragated like it was the 1960s. I think Oprah did a story on it. And I remember visiting Fitzgerald, GA numerous times with an old girlfriend and being shocked that white people and black people just didn't mix or interact at all (except at the Walmart). Each community had its own shops, restaurants, etc.
Well with all of this in a nutshell, the racism will continue on both sides within many multicultural urban areas, just like I said. I totally disagree with the theory that being poor correlates with heinous crimes (murders, assaults etc) that happens in much of these gentrified areas; I grew up on welfare myself. Their are plenty of instances that goes against the poor = crime theory (The poor Hispanic community and poorer Asian communities in places like Brooklyn; Appalachia etc etc etc).
I think that everyone should be held fully accountable for their actions, with no political excuses being made. You have been very cordial, but I'm not gonna continue this topic further, because I don't pull punches in many of my statements, and someone eventually will turn this into a PC-fest.
Quote from: I-10east on May 30, 2015, 02:39:24 AM
Quote from: Adam White on May 29, 2015, 01:46:34 AM
Assuming this is true, it may have to do with the fact that the majority of really large, densely-populated cities in the USA happen to be in areas that are more politically liberal. As it is, cities tend to be more liberal than rural areas.
If you figure that higher-crime areas tend to be poorer areas, it would not seem unreasonable to assume there would be more crime in areas where there are a lot more poor people.
Crime also tends to happen more in densely populated areas. And although you might have higher incidences of crime within a particular community, it's more likely that criminal acts will occur against members of another community when they live in close proximity to each other - especially when poor people and wealthier people live cheek by jowl.
I would be surprised if the higher rates of black-on-white crime was a function of liberalism or the political orientation of these places - it would seem more likely that it stems from a combination of other factors.
I do seem to recall a number of small towns in Florida that were still segragated like it was the 1960s. I think Oprah did a story on it. And I remember visiting Fitzgerald, GA numerous times with an old girlfriend and being shocked that white people and black people just didn't mix or interact at all (except at the Walmart). Each community had its own shops, restaurants, etc.
Well with all of this in a nutshell, the racism will continue on both sides within many multicultural urban areas, just like I said. I totally disagree with the theory that being poor correlates with heinous crimes (murders, assaults etc) that happens in much of these gentrified areas; I grew up on welfare myself. Their are plenty of instances that goes against the poor = crime theory (The poor Hispanic community and poorer Asian communities in places like Brooklyn; Appalachia etc etc etc).
I think that everyone should be held fully accountable for their actions, with no political excuses being made. You have been very cordial, but I'm not gonna continue this topic further, because I don't pull punches in many of my statements, and someone eventually will turn this into a PC-fest.
Fair enough, I-10. Thanks for keeping it civil.