A Blast From The Past: 1970s Jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3985751184_JgwMVCg-L.jpg)
Jacksonville has changed in several ways over the last forty years. Today, we go back in time and take a look at the streets of downtown and surrounding neighborhoods during the early 1970s.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-apr-a-blast-from-the-past-1970s-jacksonville
Awesome pics! Thanks for sharing.
Without a doubt my favorite part of this site is the old photos. Oh, and Mr. Dare's replies are pretty good too. ;D
Listen to anything from Curtis Mayfield, and it goes with these pics. :)
Or...."diamond in the back, sunroof top..." Perhaps my memory is faulty but I like the look of 70's Jax.
It's really neat to see the pics of how downtown Jax looked, but I am glad about the sign ordinance...it just cleaned things up, although it does strip away a little of the personality.
Beautiful!
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/3985750710_7shBmLQ-X2.jpg)
The old street lights visible in picture one (and others) are really cool.
Wonderful, thanks for the photos. Where did these come from?
^An old COJ study collecting dust in the library's special collections departments.
Quote from: menace1069 on April 14, 2015, 10:27:21 AM
It's really neat to see the pics of how downtown Jax looked, but I am glad about the sign ordinance...it just cleaned things up, although it does strip away a little of the personality.
I must respectfully disagree, I think that it is one of the main reasons our downtown looks so sterile. (That, and the fact we blew up all of our old buildings)
Quote from: Houseboat Mike on April 14, 2015, 12:18:51 PM
Quote from: menace1069 on April 14, 2015, 10:27:21 AM
It's really neat to see the pics of how downtown Jax looked, but I am glad about the sign ordinance...it just cleaned things up, although it does strip away a little of the personality.
I must respectfully disagree, I think that it is one of the main reasons our downtown looks so sterile. (That, and the fact we blew up all of our old buildings)
Yea, it does seem that Jax is real quick to demolish older buildings.
Loved those colorful Florida U.S. highway shields.
Wow - cars, people, buildings, shops - life ! If it weren't for a few individual remaining and recognizeable buildings, one might think the photos are of a different city altogether.
As for the signage - that's something I would expect of a dt area - just makes it seem more alive. It does not need to go to Vegas extremes, though.
Sign ordinances have gotten way out of hand. I didn't think the signs looked bad. Well intentioned sign ordinances have been the death of businesses, no doubt. If people can't see you sign, they may not even know you have a business there. If they don't know, they can't spend money there. Regulation for the sake of regulation is killing America.
I don't have a problem with signs but that pic is a bit cluttered IMO.
Quote from: Redbaron616 on April 14, 2015, 06:56:17 PM
Regulation for the sake of regulation is killing America.
Where is regulation for the sake of regulation happening?
Well, in downtown Jacksonville, it's happening with the signage policy, sidewalk dining, and permitting. The regulations there are frankly over the top.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 14, 2015, 08:23:27 PM
I don't have a problem with signs but that pic is a bit cluttered IMO.
Using a zoom lens when taking the picture probably made it look more cluttered than it actually was.
Loved the tour. Nice work.
The shocker for me was looking down Riverside in front of the Fire Station. I drive by there a lot.
What a change!
Hmmmmmm. I have little nostalgia for downtown Jax from that era. This was the time of a MASSIVE influx of Jax residents into Orange Park and other suburban places in and around Duval County. I remember my older sister's boyfriend taking me to see Kung Fu movies at the Florida Theatre. Lets not unduly romanticize those days. Yeah, it was special watching Bruce Lee at the Florida Theatre but it was a decidedly seedy experience and -- even to a young kid-- the area was clearly in serious decline.
^That is very true.
Quote from: spuwho on April 15, 2015, 06:05:38 AM
The shocker for me was looking down Riverside in front of the Fire Station. I drive by there a lot.
What a change!
The boat dealer in that picture used to have some nice looking Donzis in that front showroom. I believe they were a Wellcraft dealer when I was in high school. I had a small 16 foot craft with an old and mostly unreliable 150hp Yamaha in high school that my friends and I would use to waterski in the Ortega River, and that dealer once fixed the POS outboard attached to my floating fiberglass death trap when it was clear that my usual treatment of Marvins Mystery Oil would no longer cut it.
My memory may be incorrect, but I am almost certain that the fire department also docked the JFRD marine units at that same boat yard (where Sidney Geffen park is now-sure would be nice to have a proper kayak launch at that site). At the time, I thought that my career path would either skew towards being a marine fireman or Marine Patrol officer.. or an engineer (neither happened). I also thought that by my present age, I would be retired. Oh, to be young and foolish again :)
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 15, 2015, 07:24:39 AM
Lets not unduly romanticize those days.
I don't think the point of the article is to overly romanticize downtown in the 70's, because your point is well taken that 1970's Jacksonville was not the shining urban mecca of the Southeast. But it is important to learn lessons from the past. The three things that jump out to me are:
a) There were a lot more people working downtown at the time
b) There were a lot more people living
near downtown at the time. The population in the surrounding In-Town neighborhoods that fed (and still do) downtown had started to decline for sure, but there was still enough density to feed things like the corner grocery stores pictured. The actual 'downtown' population was still less then than what it is today. Its just that the surrounding neighborhoods (what many refer to as the In Town neighborhoods) still were fairly dense.
c) Thriving downtown environments often have attractive signage. Our current signage laws fixed some prevelant visual blight problems (I remember the mobile flashing signs that used to lign Cassat Ave growing up, for instance), but have also gone a bit overboard (effectively killing a fly with a sledgehammer instead of using a fly swatter)... esepcially in downtown Jax.
(http://la.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/06/bikestation7-281x300.jpg)
QuoteActually there were a lot fewer people living in the neighborhoods at that time.
Not according to the Census.
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 10:11:13 AM
By the end of the 70s, a plan to put into place elevated (moving) sidewalks along the second floors of the city center also discouraged the installation of signs that might be in the way of the system.
Those plans never materialized, and in fact have been forgotten by most, and the practice of not having hanging signs just became established practice, encouraged mightily by the anti advertising nuts associated with the issue now.
Seriously, you mean like this ? ???
(http://public.media.smithsonianmag.com/legacy_blog/moving-sidwealk.jpeg)
Explains a lot ...
Quote from: Gunnar on April 15, 2015, 01:48:25 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 10:11:13 AM
By the end of the 70s, a plan to put into place elevated (moving) sidewalks along the second floors of the city center also discouraged the installation of signs that might be in the way of the system.
Those plans never materialized, and in fact have been forgotten by most, and the practice of not having hanging signs just became established practice, encouraged mightily by the anti advertising nuts associated with the issue now.
Seriously, you mean like this ? ???
(http://public.media.smithsonianmag.com/legacy_blog/moving-sidwealk.jpeg)
Explains a lot ...
Yes, you can read about it here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-visions-of-yesteryear-the-1971-downtown-master-plan (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-sep-visions-of-yesteryear-the-1971-downtown-master-plan)
If you walk down Hogan Street, you can see how the BB&T Building was constructed to accomodate this system of elevated walkways. You can also walk down Duval Street and see the elevated plazas built into the current JEA Building, which were also slated to be a part of this system.
Today, the talk about eliminating the Main Street Bridge ramps near the Landing, converting one-way streets back to two-way streets and re-designing Hemming Park are all about unwinding the failed Downtown Master Plan of the 1970s.
The first link you posted is not even the correct data subset to prove your (incorrect) point. The second link is the block report.
The census expanded the scope of the urbanized area report for Jax between 1960 and 1970 (because the City limits changed), so you have to break down the census tracts (which also changed, there are tables that allow you to trace the boundary changes). Once you do, you clearly see a loss of population withinin the In Town neighborhoods from 1960-2010. Hell, from 2000-2010 Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill and Ortega has lost close to 10% of its population. Once you started looking at areas like Panama Park, the population decreases are in the 20% range.
You don't even need to do take hours to break down the datasets. A look at aerials shows entire neighborhoods completely wiped out.
^My memory is that Mike is correct. Most of the urban core tracts have declined seriously.
In the last census, according to this Metro Jacksonville article (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-mar-census-2010-urban-jacksonville-in-decline) Riverside-Avondale was still losing population in 2010, though it's likely due to gentrification at this point (more houses are full, but with younger people and smaller families). The only ones that have grown are the tracts in Southbank, San Marco, Downtown itself. A lot of that is due to the residential developments that have gone up, but those have been mostly within the last 10 or 15 years.
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 03:49:55 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on April 15, 2015, 02:59:25 PM
The first link you posted is not even the correct data subset to prove your (incorrect) point. The second link is the block report.
The census expanded the scope of the urbanized area report for Jax between 1960 and 1970 (because the City limits changed), so you have to break down the census tracts (which also changed, there are tables that allow you to trace the boundary changes). Once you do, you clearly see a loss of population withinin the In Town neighborhoods from 1960-2010. Hell, from 2000-2010 Riverside, Avondale, Murray Hill and Ortega has lost close to 10% of its population. Once you started looking at areas like Panama Park, the population decreases are in the 20% range.
You don't even need to do take hours to break down the datasets. A look at aerials shows entire neighborhoods completely wiped out.
lol. busted. you actually referenced a census data that you haven't even bothered to read? that is hilarious. Good job! I think you are ready to graduate up to hardy boys status. lol.
That's actually not what I said whatsoever. I said that you aren't posting links that can prove your (incorrect) assertions. The links you provided don't inlcude the info to accurately compare populations within specific geographic areas. You posted a block report and a report that compares income/racial characteristics.
Companies, like mine, have databases built that compare apples to apples.
I hope that Census Tract 568795 (referred to as Stephen Dare's fantasyland) has increased in population between 1970-present. I didn't bother to read that tract.
The urban core (the preconsolidated 30 square-mile city) has lost roughly 100k residents since 1950. We've done a few articles on it.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-oct-the-plight-of-the-urban-core
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-mar-census-2010-urban-jacksonville-in-decline
Neighborhoods like Brooklyn, LaVilla, Sugar Hill/Hansontown, East Jax, etc. are the ones where you'll find some of the largest declines over the last half century.
Some are still in decline. Here's a graphic showing the results between 2000 and 2010 census. The urban core (preconsolidated city) is outlined in red.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1234384968_5rEgt-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1234399584_njZQ2-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1234399559_xrkoH-M.jpg)
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 03:55:44 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on April 15, 2015, 09:40:03 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 15, 2015, 07:24:39 AM
Lets not unduly romanticize those days.
I don't think the point of the article is to overly romanticize downtown in the 70's, because your point is well taken that 1970's Jacksonville was not the shining urban mecca of the Southeast. But it is important to learn lessons from the past. The three things that jump out to me are:
a) There were a lot more people working downtown at the time
b) There were a lot more people living near downtown at the time. The population in the surrounding In-Town neighborhoods that fed (and still do) downtown had started to decline for sure, but there was still enough density to feed things like the corner grocery stores pictured. The actual 'downtown' population was still less then than what it is today. Its just that the surrounding neighborhoods (what many refer to as the In Town neighborhoods) still were fairly dense.
Tacachale, this is the post that we are discussing. looking at photos from above simply does not tell you which buildings are occupied or how many people live in them.
Field is once again, for reasons known only to himself, indulging in flights of semantic fancy for the sole purpose of challenging any fact set. Its an interesting conversational tactic, but it doesn't lend itself to a lot of accuracy.
My original point is that the downtown was a pretty fair picture of vibrancy for the era, and that the surrounding neighborhoods had been hollowed out and were in a point of decline to the stage where they weren't all that contributory to the downtown economy.
Downtown was mostly kept vibrant by the 80k plus people working in the central business district.
You remember downtown in the 70s? Personally?
I wasn't alive in the 70s. But I do know that according to the census, there were more people in most of the Old City neighborhoods in 1970 than there are now. In that article I linked, the downward trend continued as of 2010, except for Downtown, the Southbank, and San Marco, which are growing.
I would agree that Downtown in the 1970s was still benefiting from having a lot more Downtown workers than there are now. But there were also more people living within a few miles of Downtown as well. Either way, it was on a major downswing compared to where it had been in the past. That will change the more we get people living, working and playing in and near Downtown. Some signs are hopeful.
According to the census, it appeared things began to fall apart sometime between 1950 and 1960. The city, as a whole, lost 1.6% of it's population that decade. That was after growing 18% during the 40s, 33.6% during the 30s and 58.7% during the 20s. We ended up masking that decline with consolidation.
Yeah. The 70s and early 80s were a pretty crappy period for urban areas across the country.
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 04:20:54 PM
Also this is kind of mindblowing urban decay. The Bronx by the 1980s.
https://www.youtube.com/v/xgUsEVwXch0
Too bad all of those torn down buildings in 70's/80's era NY wasn't saved. What a waste...
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 04:04:21 PM
But that was pretty much what cities looked like before the ideals of the City Beautiful movement became so embedded into local planning boards that they started changing urban landscapes in the 1980s.
The City Beautiful movement flourished during the 1890s and 1900s. i know Jacksonville tends to be a bit behind the times, but it's not that bad! ::)
This is the downtown of my teen years and early working years. It was packed. The one way streets were gridlocked at rush hour. In 1971, I worked for Barnett Bank at 100 Laura Street. On my lunch hour, I'd walk to Hemming Plaza and shop at May Cohen's, Ivey's, Furchgott's, Woolworth's, Lerner Shops, Luggage Shop, LaRose Shoes, or a number of other stores. Or I'd walk to where the Omni is now and go to Sears. Or a bunch of us would eat at the bar in the basement of the Robert Meyer Hotel (Roast beef sandwiches with horseradish and ice cold sauerkraut. Yum.) Or at the restaurants in May Cohens. Or buy a Triple Threat citrus drink at the juice bar. I took the bus to and from work from Riverside. It dropped me off on Forsyth and Laura, and picked me up on Adams and Laura. I still love downtown, and wish I could still work downtown. But it's a ghost of what it was then.
The channelization and beautification of Hogans and McCoys Creek are two early 20th century local examples of the City Beautiful movement. Unfortunately, we've let them go to hell.
Quote from: stephendare on April 15, 2015, 04:04:21 PM
ps: Was it the Florida Theatre that you were going to or was it the Center Theatre? Thats where the kung fu marathons were happening. I didn't realize that they were also doing them at the Florida Theatre.
It is quite possible that I've conflated things (I certainly plead guilty to doing it on other occasions), but my memory says it was definitely the Florida Theatre. This quote is from their current website:
QuoteFrom the early 1970s, until the Theatre was closed on May 8, 1980, B-grade and action movies were shown and the theatre remained only marginally profitable even with concession sales.
Quote from: I-10east on April 15, 2015, 05:53:54 PM
Too bad all of those torn down buildings in 70's/80's era NY wasn't saved. What a waste...
No you dee-ent !!! LOL !!!
Quote from: I-10east on April 15, 2015, 05:53:54 PM
Too bad all of those torn down buildings in 70's/80's era NY wasn't saved. What a waste...
They still have plenty left and I'm quite sure others filled the empty space eventually.
^^^I was being sarcastic, and channeling my 'inner MJ'. *opens Pandora's Box*
Just a question. The picture that says it was taken at Lee Street viaduct looking towards LaVilla. Isn't that actually from Beaver Street looking at the Beaver Street Interlocking tower? I believe Seaboard Airline crossed over on the diagonal crossings to get to and from the train station.
I started hanging out downtown in 1975 as a 12 year old. Id take the bus from the Paxon area (.15 cents !) and go to the library or the army/navy store (you could find the neatest stuff there for nothing) or Id wander around the dept stores,grab a bite to eat,or catch a movie at that gorgeous art deco theater ($1.25 for matinee) .There were all kinds of little shops, like right across from the main library was a used book store where Id buy gorgeous old books for a buck or two. My favorite lunch was a place upstairs in that old club building that had the best hamburger riders. It was always busy downtown,tons of people walking around. In the early 80s I was gone for a while and when I came back I couldn't believe how much downtown had changed. I enjoyed the landing and the Riverwalk,but I sure missed those dusty little stores and all the people you could meet and chat with.
The should revisit the sign ordinance. A modest sign in front of the shops adds character!