Stop me if you've heard this before. It is too soon after the "confrontation" of JSO and Cleveland Arms "situation" for me to have words to describe the raw, deep pain I feel watching this video. It should be talked about and ways to improve the nation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/08/us/south-carolina-officer-is-charged-with-murder-in-black-mans-death.html?_r=1
Simply awful.
WTH!
The way the man was killed shows one thing: Many police officers feel like they can do whatever they want, including cowardly shooting an unarmed man in the back, and get away with it.
This is an unhealthy attitude to say the least.
I understand that being a cop isn't easy and brings with it many dangerous situations calling for a quick decision, but what is needed is better training (not a 12 week crash course), better selection of potential candidates and definitely more accountability.
The sick and scary thing is how well thought out this seemed - shot the victim, calmly pick up the taser and place it next to him and make sure he does not survive, so he cannot tell his side of the story. Seems like this is not something unusual for the perpetrators, which makes make question how often this has happened before.
I saw this video this morning. While most of the other incidents were left up to speculation on exactly what happened due to no video being available, this one captured the majority of the incident. This officer was plain wrong and should be locked up. I completely support law enforcement in all they do and I know it's an extremely tough job. But this is just wrong and he should be held accountable. The dude had a warrant, yes...from the family court for non-payment of child support. He's not a criminal. After the officer shoots at the guy 8 times, who happened to be running away from him and not posing any kind of threat to him, he calmly looks around to see if anyone sees him and then walks over to the guy.
This is the type of officer who is a disgrace to those who wear the uniform....this is the type of officer that the demonstrators are protesting against.
Can you imagine how different this would have been had there been no video? All we would have had is what the officer said. Sure an "internal investigation" would have been conducted and would have then found the officer did everything correctly and that officer would be back out on the streets. How often does this happen? All we have is what the police officer says happens.
^We would have also plastered the deceased victim's past all across the media, creating a story that the guy was no saint and that the officer had no choice but to hit him that many times from behind. To be honest, I'm surprised he didn't go after the guy with the phone.
I've seen a report on twitter that claims the cameraman said he was threatened by the cops and was afraid to come forward. I know - anybody can claim anything on twitter, so take it for what it's worth. But it certainly sounds plausible.
While we're all waiting around for cops to get body cameras, and then waiting for the lawmakers to sort out the privacy protections and rules, we need to remind people that filming police officers is not against the law. Police cannot make you stop filming or make you delete what you've recorded. Yes, they can make you get out of the way, but they can't make you stop filming what they're doing.
http://www.copblock.org/filmthepolice/ (http://www.copblock.org/filmthepolice/)
http://consumerist.com/2014/08/14/the-police-cant-order-you-to-stop-filming-them-in-public-or-force-you-to-delete-pics-from-phone/ (http://consumerist.com/2014/08/14/the-police-cant-order-you-to-stop-filming-them-in-public-or-force-you-to-delete-pics-from-phone/)
Quote from: Gunnar on April 08, 2015, 04:47:14 AM
The way the man was killed shows one thing: Many police officers feel like they can do whatever they want, including cowardly shooting an unarmed man in the back, and get away with it.
This is an unhealthy attitude to say the least.
I understand that being a cop isn't easy and brings with it many dangerous situations calling for a quick decision, but what is needed is better training (not a 12 week crash course), better selection of potential candidates and definitely more accountability.
The sick and scary thing is how well thought out this seemed - shot the victim, calmly pick up the taser and place it next to him and make sure he does not survive, so he cannot tell his side of the story. Seems like this is not something unusual for the perpetrators, which makes make question how often this has happened before.
I agree with these. I'm sickened by the way the cop calmly put his gun back in the holster, then yells at the man, clearly dead, to put his "hands in the back". Pulling the dead mans hands to his back to handcuff him. He walks slowly back to Taser and throws it on the ground. This does not seem like this was his first. It was too calm and control like he was the shooting range. Disgusting.
How many people have experienced this? No wonder he was running from the cops. He was scare of them, as I am.
Just to put this out there, and in no way am I even remotely trying to justify the cop's response and based on what I saw, I hope he receives a punishment commensurate with his actions. On the flip side and from more experiences in dealing with LEO than I'd like to mention, I've never been hit, tazed, shot, etc....
Is it because I'm white or is it because I never ran, fought back or resisted?
Was the guy going to end up going to jail for failure to pay child support again? Probably, but while not making him a 'criminal' per se, he knew what was coming and made a really bad decision. The cop just exponentially amplified that bad decision with another horrible decision and now 2 people's lives are forever changed and the collateral damage is incalculable.
So I think about that every time I read one of these articles. And since memories tend to run a little short and people sometimes read what they want and not what was written, I'm going to repeat myself:
Quote"...in no way am I even remotely trying to justify the cop's response and based on what I saw, I hope he receives a punishment commensurate with his actions."
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 11:31:23 AM
Just to put this out there, and in no way am I even remotely trying to justify the cop's response and based on what I saw, I hope he receives a punishment commensurate with his actions. On the flip side and from more experiences in dealing with LEO than I'd like to mention, I've never been hit, tazed, shot, etc....
Is it because I'm white or is it because I never ran, fought back or resisted?
Was the guy going to end up going to jail for failure to pay child support again? Probably, but while not making him a 'criminal' per se, he knew what was coming and made a really bad decision. The cop just exponentially amplified that bad decision with another horrible decision and now 2 people's lives are forever changed and the collateral damage is incalculable.
So I think about that every time I read one of these articles. And since memories tend to run a little short and people sometimes read what they want and not what was written, I'm going to repeat myself:
Quote"...in no way am I even remotely trying to justify the cop's response and based on what I saw, I hope he receives a punishment commensurate with his actions."
The cop pulled the man over for having a tail light out. As the guy was pulling into the parking lot of an auto parts store. I think this issue is larger than just some random black guy who hadn't paid his child support.
Sure he shouldn't have run, and sure he should have paid his child support. I don't want to live somewhere where those offenses are punishable by death. Poor judgement on the part of a cop should mean that someone gets pulled over when they shouldn't, or they use their police car when they shouldn't. It shouldn't mean that someone loses their life, and then the cop tries to cover it up by picking up the taser and putting it on the ground next to a handcuffed, dying man.
I'm a white guy too and I have never resisted a cop, but this should outrage all of us. Given some of the recent killings and other misbehavior by cops that have received so much coverage, why should be surprised that a black guy ran away from a cop?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 11:31:23 AM
Is it because I'm white or is it because I never ran, fought back or resisted?
Same here - I was always as polite an nonthreatening as possible no matter how annoying I found the cop to be (although in the majority of the cases they were acting correctly).
Then again, I never saw police as a lethal threat, so my mind set was accordingly.
However, how do you react in the face of people that you see as going to potentially harass, rough you up or even kill you no matter how you behave- just because they can and will get away with this. I think most of us would either fight or try and run away.
Quote from: Ajax on April 08, 2015, 11:44:24 AM
The cop pulled the man over for having a tail light out. As the guy was pulling into the parking lot of an auto parts store. I think this issue is larger than just some random black guy who hadn't paid his child support.
Why? I'm not sure of procedure, so this is an assumption. The cop runs the tag and sees a warrant out for unpaid child support. Let's also assume that they can't serve those warrants on that basis alone, so the cop notices a tail-light out (suspect IMO) and makes a stop. The guy, knowing he's going to jail, makes a tremendously stupid decision and runs.
While we're playing the 'what if' game, how ignorant is it to flee after a traffic stop in the first place? Assuming the car is registered in your name, they already have your information and you just made whatever situation you were in 1,000x worse.
My opinion is that this entire situation and many more like it could be minimized once traffic stops are used in the name of safety instead of as a money generating tool.
Quote from: Dapperdan on April 08, 2015, 09:08:57 AM
Can you imagine how different this would have been had there been no video? All we would have had is what the officer said. Sure an "internal investigation" would have been conducted and would have then found the officer did everything correctly and that officer would be back out on the streets. How often does this happen? All we have is what the police officer says happens.
Actually, we don't even have to imagine. Here's what was reported on Saturday (before anyone knew a video existed):
"A statement released by North Charleston police spokesman Spencer Pryor said a man ran on foot from the traffic stop and an officer deployed his department-issued Taser in an attempt to stop him.
That did not work, police said, and an altercation ensued as the men struggled over the device. Police allege that during the struggle the man gained control of the Taser and attempted to use it against the officer.
The officer then resorted to his service weapon and shot him, police alleged.
It was not immediately clear how many times Scott had been shot or where on his body he was wounded.
Officers tried to revive him prior to the arrival of paramedics, police said. But their efforts were in vain."
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Ajax on April 08, 2015, 11:44:24 AM
The cop pulled the man over for having a tail light out. As the guy was pulling into the parking lot of an auto parts store. I think this issue is larger than just some random black guy who hadn't paid his child support.
Why? I'm not sure of procedure, so this is an assumption. The cop runs the tag and sees a warrant out for unpaid child support. Let's also assume that they can't serve those warrants on that basis alone, so the cop notices a tail-light out (suspect IMO) and makes a stop. The guy, knowing he's going to jail, makes a tremendously stupid decision and runs.
While we're playing the 'what if' game, how ignorant is it to flee after a traffic stop in the first place? Assuming the car is registered in your name, they already have your information and you just made whatever situation you were in 1,000x worse.
I am playing 'what if' - I'm just grasping at straws. For some reason this has affected me in a way that some of the other incidents have not - I don't know why. It is heartbreaking to watch that video. There is nothing that man has done that justifies what happened. Wait, it would be heartbreaking if that was a dog. That was a human being. It's a goddamn outrage.
I don't know what procedure is either, but if I was a cop and I wasn't looking to bust somebody's balls, I would probably leave the guy alone and let him go inside the store and get his light fixed. I didn't even know they could put you in jail for not paying child support. Does that sound reasonable? (For the record - you're not defending killer cops and I'm not defending deadbeat dads.) People with lower socioeconomic status tend to owe money - child support, bills, unpaid parking fines, municipal liens. Is it reasonable to throw all of those people in jail? Fines, court appearances, jail time - how is the person supposed to hold onto a job so that they can pay all of these bills? The cop is just doing his job, but is it necessary?
I've just read enough stories of black Americans getting harassed by cops for bullshit reasons. I'm sure the cop had every 'by the book' reason to pull the guy over - that's why they're in favor of seatbelt laws and no-texting laws. I cannot defend the dead guy's actions at all. I still hold the cop to a much higher standard because we give them so much power and I expect them to use their discretion. If black men are dying on a regular basis during routine police interventions, then how do we as a society make sure that there are fewer interventions like this?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 12:11:07 PMMy opinion is that this entire situation and many more like it could be minimized once traffic stops are used in the name of safety instead of as a money generating tool.
On this, we definitely agree.
We're all left playing the 'what if' game Ajax, I'm not claiming to 'know' why or how either.
And this incident is more inciting than most because practically the entire situation was video taped and in direct odds with the report that was filed; we're not left having to rely on a 1-sided report of what happened behind those stores and wondering what really happened.
This will be interesting how this plays out, because I have a hard time seeing how any of his peers are going to be able to stand beside him and justify his actions, knowing the national attention this will draw and the immediate local tension that this has created.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
And this incident is more inciting than most because practically the entire situation was video taped and in direct odds with the report that was filed; we're not left having to rely on a 1-sided report of what happened behind those stores and wondering what really happened.
I think that's part of why I feel so upset about this. We would have to be pretty naive to think this is the only time this has happened.
Quote from: stephendare on April 08, 2015, 03:44:53 PM
Quote from: Ajax on April 08, 2015, 03:42:47 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
And this incident is more inciting than most because practically the entire situation was video taped and in direct odds with the report that was filed; we're not left having to rely on a 1-sided report of what happened behind those stores and wondering what really happened.
I think that's part of why I feel so upset about this. We would have to be pretty naive to think this is the only time this has happened.
there are a lot of pretty naive people on these forums. (and in the country in general) you should check out the old Kiko Battles discussions.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=8887.0
yup
This North Charleston case is an open & shut case; You can clearly see what happened. The same like the State Trooper is Columbia, South Carolina (again SC...) who shot a man getting his ID. The DANGER is labelling every cop shooting case as a 'one size fits all' just because a black man is involved; The Cleveland Arms case, and otherwise.
These buzz words like UNARMED holds no weight with me; If I'm UNARMED, and I assault you, an an armed person; We are struggling for your gun, do you have the right to shoot me? Damn right you do! Have there been cases when cops got off swaying the evidence? Damn right there has been! Get mad at me and troll, add twenty funny GIFs mocking me, I don't care, I tell it like it is, and I won't fall for a certain agenda.
This is the local newspaper article that was written *before* the video of the shooting was released. Incredible. I've probably read hundreds of articles like this and never given the official version of events a second thought.
http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150406/PC16/150409558/1268/north-charleston-police-say-officer-who-fatally-shot-man-pulled-him-over-because-of-brake-light&source=RSS (http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20150406/PC16/150409558/1268/north-charleston-police-say-officer-who-fatally-shot-man-pulled-him-over-because-of-brake-light&source=RSS)
QuoteAttorney: North Charleston police officer felt threatened before fatal shooting
Andrew Knapp Email Facebook @offlede
Apr 6 2015 1:09 pm Apr 7 4:37 pm
A North Charleston police officer felt threatened last weekend when the driver he had stopped for a broken brake light tried to overpower him and take his Taser.
That's why Patrolman 1st Class Michael Thomas Slager, a former Coast Guardsman, fatally shot the man, the officer's attorney said Monday.
Slager thinks he properly followed all procedures and policies before resorting to deadly force, lawyer David Aylor said in a statement.
"This is a very tragic event for all of the families," Aylor said. "I believe once the community hears all the facts of this shooting, they'll have a better understanding of the circumstances surrounding this investigation."
Monday's developments filled in some of the blanks in what was South Carolina's 11th police shooting of the year. Authorities publicly identified Slager, an officer with the city since December 2009, and gave his reason for the traffic stop that led to the fatal confrontation. Police documents also revealed that Slager announced within seconds why he had fired.
"Shots fired, and the subject is down," he said into his radio, according to an incident report. "He took my Taser."
Walter Lamer Scott, 50, of Meadowlawn Drive in West Ashley died soon after the encounter near Craig Street and Remount Road.
He has been arrested about 10 times in his lifetime, mostly for failure to appear for court hearings and to pay child support.
The only indicator of violence in his past came with his first arrest in 1987 on an assault and battery charge.
Slager, 33, served honorably in the military before joining the North Charleston Police Department more than five years ago, Aylor said.
He has never been disciplined during his time on the force, the attorney added.
A complaint
Slager was on a boarding team when he served in the Coast Guard in Port Canaveral, Fla., his personnel file showed. The 91 pages of documents were released Monday after The Post and Courier filed a S.C. Freedom of Information Act request.
He passed courses on how to use the Taser X26 when he was hired in North Charleston and performed well on shooting tests with his .45-caliber Glock 21. Supervisors indicated in performance reviews that he met expectations as an officer and kept a tidy patrol car.
Of the two complaints in his file, one dealt with a resident's allegation of unnecessary use of force.
Slager went to the man's Delaware Avenue home in September 2013 to investigate a burglary. When the resident opened the door for Slager, the burglary victim yelled that he wasn't the suspect, the documents stated.
The man also insisted that he wasn't the perpetrator, but he later told internal investigators that Slager threatened to use a Taser against him if he didn't come outside. When the man followed the order and stepped outside, he said Slager "Tased (him) for no reason and ... slammed him and dragged him."
But another officer there said Slager had been forced to use the device during a struggle. The investigators exonerated Slager of wrongdoing.
Slager will keep working during a State Law Enforcement Division investigation into whether Saturday's shooting was justified, but Pryor said he would be on administrative duty.
While the police released Slager's file, one lawmaker said the episode again points out the need for body-mounted cameras whose footage can stave off community speculation.
The city is expected to get 115 of the devices through $275,000 in state funding for that and other anti-crime initiatives.
Rep. Wendell Gilliard, D-Charleston, said it can't come soon enough. Gilliard has authored legislation to require police agencies to outfit their officers with cameras. As an alternative, he also offered a bill calling for a study of such programs. But he expressed frustration because the measures had not advanced.
"People will say I'm using this (shooting) as a springboard," he said. "But I've said these types of incidents will continue, and when they do, it's going to be unfortunate that we are not using modern-day technology to stop the speculation and rumors."
The authorities have not said whether anyone else saw Slager's struggle with Scott.
No one called Charleston County's 911 Center after the gunfire, and Slager's communications with dispatchers will not be made public until SLED approves it, county spokeswoman Natalie Hauff said.
SLED spokesman Thom Berry said prosecutors also would have to review the recordings and be "agreeable and amenable" to their release.
'Quickly escalated'
North Charleston community leaders have mentioned the police shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., in urging residents not to grow violent in light of Scott's death. But, like Missouri police said of Brown, Slager saw Scott as a threat when the officer decided to pull the trigger.
Around 9:30 a.m. Saturday, Slager noticed a Mercedes-Benz sedan with a brake light that was "out and not working," the police spokesman said. He stopped his cruiser behind the sedan that had pulled into Advance Auto Parts at 1945 Remount Road.
"What started out as a routine traffic stop quickly escalated after the driver fled," Slager's attorney said.
Scott ran down Craig Road, which parallels the store's parking lot and stretches southward toward the Singing Pines community. A passenger in his car stayed put.
Slager told other officers through his radio that he had gotten into a foot chase, according to the report. The police have not given details about the confrontation that followed behind the Mega Pawn shop at 5654 Rivers Ave.
But with other officers on the way to help, Slager announced on his radio that he had "deployed" his Taser, according to the report. But it didn't work.
The statement from Slager's attorney, though, did not say that Slager actually fired the device. Aylor said he could not offer further clarification until the officer talks with investigators.
"When confronted, Officer Slager reached for his Taser — as trained by the department — and then a struggle ensued," Aylor said. "The driver tried to overpower Officer Slager in an effort to take his Taser."
'Felt threatened'
Seconds later, the report added, he radioed that the suspect wrested control of the device. Even with the Taser's prongs deployed, the device can still be used as a stun gun to temporarily incapacitate someone.
Slager "felt threatened and reached for his department-issued firearm and fired his weapon," his attorney added.
The report indicated that Slager fired multiple times, but it was not specific.
Backup officers did first aid and CPR on Scott until paramedics showed up. But Scott was pronounced dead.
Loved ones have said that Scott was a family man who recently got engaged. They insisted that he wasn't violent.
His most serious arrests came decades ago, according to his SLED rap sheet.
County police officers arrested him in 1987 on a charge of assault and battery, and he was convicted in 1991 of possession of a bludgeon.
Ten years passed before he was arrested twice in 2001 on contempt charges. He would face several similar charges occasionally during the next decade until his last arrest in 2012.
He also had convictions from 2008 for driving under suspension and having an open alcohol container in his car.
Anthony Scott met with the police near the scene soon after his brother was shot. The report did not specify, though, whether he had been the passenger in the Mercedes.
The police took his cellphone as evidence. The next day, he promised in a public statement to find out the truth about what happened.
Dave Munday contributed to this report. Reach Andrew Knapp at 937-5414 or twitter.com/offlede.
^^^Didn't I said that this North Charleston cop was guilty? Why are you acting like I denied the video? I got a bridge to sell you if you think that race isn't a factor with the media, you can't be that naive...Why do you care so much about my opinion? I only said what I said because Cleveland Arms, a different case was tied into this thread; Otherwise, I wouldn't have went there. I make no apologies for telling it like it is, so no need for that weak attempt at shaming 'bad taste I-10' crap....
Quote from: stephendare on April 08, 2015, 08:07:59 PM
dumb. and no one cares, frankly.
Seems to be your go to word this week. Dictionary.com has an app you might want to check out.
I guess lifting this from the other thread is pretty appropriate:
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 07, 2015, 11:43:06 AM
...Frankly, calling someone else's opinion dumb while elevating your own is a petty way to debate anything when you have nothing to substantiate your argument other than 'opinion'...
I-10 makes a pretty valid point. None of these shootings are one-size-fits-all and you have to analyze each based on the information presented.
There's another case on the forum of an officer shooting a man in the back http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10722.0.html, and while it's a common trend to package all police shootings in the same wrapper, these 2 cases are apples and oranges, or night and day if you will. One was a repeat offender with what could be deemed as 'a danger to the public' felony conviction(s); Scott had an issue with paying child support and showing up for court. The linked incident happened after dark; Scott's was in broad daylight. One fled in a vehicle through a residential neighborhood and ultimately rammed it into a police cruiser; Scott was on foot running through an empty lot.
Did either man deserve to die? No. But with the facts as presented, I tend to side with the LEO on the one and the victim on the other. And I don't see an instance in I-10's post or any other on this thread siding with the Police department in this case.
The video that was shot directly refutes the officer's testimony, and that is the damning aspect that is going to get, and should get IMO, the most attention in this case because it begs the question in Ajax's statement:
Quote from: Ajax on April 08, 2015, 07:00:34 PM
This is the local newspaper article that was written *before* the video of the shooting was released. Incredible. I've probably read hundreds of articles like this and never given the official version of events a second thought.
How many other 'official' versions have played out and been completely wrong to CYA?
Edit in Blue
^^^Thank you NRW, I appreciate it man.
Quote from: I-10east on April 08, 2015, 08:56:19 PM
^^^Didn't I said that this North Charleston cop was guilty? Why are you acting like I denied the video? I got a bridge to sell you if you think that race isn't a factor with the media, you can't be that naive...Why do you care so much about my opinion? I only said what I said because Cleveland Arms, a different case was tied into this thread; Otherwise, I wouldn't have went there. I make no apologies for telling it like it is, so no need for that weak attempt at shaming 'bad taste I-10' crap....
Please, I-10 enlighten us to the facts from Cleveland Arms? Do you have a video? How in the hell do you know "a different case" or set of facts of Cleveland Arms shooting didn't have this entire scenario? The JSO shooting the UNARMED man at Cleveland Arms has everything to do with this. Many police can not be trusted to tell the truth. Again, many police can not be trusted to tell the truth. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind the JSO "followed procedure". I'm seen them work. I know their work. This work is imperfect at times, and many times when they are in the present of different individuals.
YOu can troll me, but I'm wasting time with you after this, but you are wrong. You are prejudice and you seemed very racist. You are giving white cops too much credit and withholding factual truth you know is correct. A man is shot to death on cold bloody death and you're first action is to yell about this is not like all police. Well, This guy was NOT LIKE ALL BLACK MALES. Get a grip on reality you are living in. It's 2015, not 1956. People got rights and I stand up for people using them!
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
We're all left playing the 'what if' game Ajax, I'm not claiming to 'know' why or how either.
And this incident is more inciting than most because practically the entire situation was video taped and in direct odds with the report that was filed; we're not left having to rely on a 1-sided report of what happened behind those stores and wondering what really happened.
This will be interesting how this plays out, because I have a hard time seeing how any of his peers are going to be able to stand beside him and justify his actions, knowing the national attention this will draw and the immediate local tension that this has created.
NO, YOU ARE NOT LEFT PLAYING THE WHAT IF GAME? Cleveland Arms shooting by JSO is the what if game. This is not. This is a police person assassinated a man in cold blood with ABSOLUTELY NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO SO.
It's not hard to process the facts, it's hard when you refuse to acknowledge the facts.
Quote from: Jax native on April 08, 2015, 10:10:44 PM
Quote from: I-10east on April 08, 2015, 08:56:19 PM
^^^Didn't I said that this North Charleston cop was guilty? Why are you acting like I denied the video? I got a bridge to sell you if you think that race isn't a factor with the media, you can't be that naive...Why do you care so much about my opinion? I only said what I said because Cleveland Arms, a different case was tied into this thread; Otherwise, I wouldn't have went there. I make no apologies for telling it like it is, so no need for that weak attempt at shaming 'bad taste I-10' crap....
Please, I-10 enlighten us to the facts from Cleveland Arms? Do you have a video? How in the hell do you know "a different case" or set of facts of Cleveland Arms shooting didn't have this entire scenario? The JSO shooting the UNARMED man at Cleveland Arms has everything to do with this. Many police can not be trusted to tell the truth. Again, many police can not be trusted to tell the truth. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind the JSO "followed procedure". I'm seen them work. I know their work. This work is imperfect at times, and many times when they are in the present of different individuals.
YOu can troll me, but I'm wasting time with you after this, but you are wrong. You are prejudice and you seemed very racist. You are giving white cops too much credit and withholding factual truth you know is correct. A man is shot to death on cold bloody death and you're first action is to yell about this is not like all police. Well, This guy was NOT LIKE ALL BLACK MALES. Get a grip on reality you are living in. It's 2015, not 1956. People got rights and I stand up for people using them!
Very moronic statements. I'm 'racist' against myself because I don't see myself as a constant victim? Okay... 2015 is the era of continuous black victimhood, without indulging into the facts of every individual case? Okay.. Just throw an 'innocent blanket' over every 'victim' and there you go...As I said earlier, the North Charleston cop is guilty as hell, there is no denying that.
On to the Cleveland Arms case (why you linked that to this SC case, I have no idea, other than an agenda) You mentioned everything that guy did was a misdemeanor, when I can easily name three felonies through that instance, and I'm being freaking lenient!! Hell, give the guy a boy scout badge, he's such an innocent person, with simple 'misdemeanors' through that ordeal, like kicking people's door down, assaulting a woman, resisting arrest among other things...You don't have a leg to stand on with your typical liberal-esque comments; When all else fails, call someone a 'racist, and it isn't 1956' etc. Just because you wrote a long post (on the other thread) doesn't mean it has any substance...You can't even stick to the script on your own thread...
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 11:31:23 AM
Just to put this out there, and in no way am I even remotely trying to justify the cop's response and based on what I saw, I hope he receives a punishment commensurate with his actions. On the flip side and from more experiences in dealing with LEO than I'd like to mention, I've never been hit, tazed, shot, etc....
Is it because I'm white or is it because I never ran, fought back or resisted?
Was the guy going to end up going to jail for failure to pay child support again? Probably, but while not making him a 'criminal' per se, he knew what was coming and made a really bad decision. The cop just exponentially amplified that bad decision with another horrible decision and now 2 people's lives are forever changed and the collateral damage is incalculable.
So I think about that every time I read one of these articles. And since memories tend to run a little short and people sometimes read what they want and not what was written, I'm going to repeat myself:
Quote"...in no way am I even remotely trying to justify the cop's response and based on what I saw, I hope he receives a punishment commensurate with his actions."
I'm not quite sure what to start on these words. Maybe it is because you are white. Maybe you are bland. Maybe you don't go out much. Maybe you don't encounter others or maybe you just keep yourself protected alone/ I have no idea. But, let me throw you out something;
Let's say you are a law abiding white male who has a concealed weapons permit. YOu like your concealed weapon. You want to keep it with you most of the times. You even have a miniature copy of the 2nd Amendment, Sarah Palin gave out her last visit. What if we have police who don't like people having guns? What if we get to a point, police are irritated by people who have guns, especially white guys? What if you haven't renew you concealed weapon permit? The police pull you over for a bad tail light? The police see you have a concealed weapon. They ask for your permit, and you know you need to pay to renew but you haven't. But, this is not the first time police have done this to you. You keep forgetting and not have the money to get your permit, so police keep harassing you about it. What if they took to jail a couple of times for not having permits? What would you do if people pulled you over while just driving your car, you realize you don't have a permit, and the police have kinda, or maybe a lot abused you in arguments about your gun permit. So, your driving Saturday afternoon and the police pulls you over because you have no tail light. YOu have anxiety, maybe a little panic attacks, because you are now living in a world where black males are not threatening,but whites males with guns are. Police don't give a crap about black men who owe child support. They now want to get your gun. There are a rogue crew of police who want everyone unarmed. YOU ARE THEIR BIGGEST TARGET NOW. You know your a target, because police (in a world you will never understand, but stay with me here) have beat up your friends who carry, handcuffed you on bogus charges because you carry, followed you to your house because you carry, and watch from their cars seeing a white male who looks suspicious because they are while, older, etc. the typical profile, there cops hate. So, now they have pulled you over and you're in your anxiety phase, where you are sick and tired about being pulled over for petty crap. You don't want to go to jail. Police start treating you worst than others, because you are the target profile they dislike. Not because you are white, but because you guys always have guns. Police then starts badgering you, not unlike the previous 8 -12 times in last 6 years.
You know you have the 2nd amendment right not to give up your gun but he's mad your permit isn't up to date. He pulls you out of car, yells at you, intimidates you, and you are scared of going to jail over such a PETTY, PETTY ,PETTY issue..to you. You think to yourself, I'm sick of cops trying to take my gun, I tired of being pulled over, I do not want to go to jail. I run because police is threatening me with who knows what. You fight or flee. Normal reaction when your back against the wall in a situation that's difficult to handle. Your not going to fight the police, you run. he pulls his gun and shoot you dead. He looks at your dead body and screams, 'PUT YOUR HANDS AGAINST YOUR BACK' while you are not breathing. He then plants some evidence on you, and everything cool. Maybe it's not you this time, it's the guy you meet at Denny's every Tuesday morning for coffee. How do you feel?
This man who was murdered has a 4th amendment right to no illegal searches, and a right to drive peacefully on the road. The police couldn't arrest him, but they could try to search him, ask him questions not legally and violate each of his Constitutional rights.
YOu can not want the government to abuse your second amendment, and the rest of us, don't won't police to abuse out 4, 7th and the rest. YOu cannot cherry pick what amendment you want to protect and give up the rights of others. The NC police had no right to pull him out of car, chase him down or kill him in cold blood. This man had rights, and I do also. I don't know about you, but I'm fighting to keep mine. Not just your's MINE.
Quote from: Jax native on April 08, 2015, 10:13:39 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 02:28:08 PM
We're all left playing the 'what if' game Ajax, I'm not claiming to 'know' why or how either.
NO, YOU ARE NOT LEFT PLAYING THE WHAT IF GAME? Cleveland Arms shooting by JSO is the what if game. This is not. This is a police person assassinated a man in cold blood with ABSOLUTELY NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO SO.
It's not hard to process the facts, it's hard when you refuse to acknowledge the facts.
Easy..... Calm Down Mr. CAPITAL LETTERS PANTS.... Goos - Fra - Ba....... Con-text
The guessing game regarding why he was pulled over to begin with, not what we witnessed on the video.
Cliff's Notes:
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 12:11:07 PM
Quote from: Ajax on April 08, 2015, 11:44:24 AM
The cop pulled the man over for having a tail light out. As the guy was pulling into the parking lot of an auto parts store. I think this issue is larger than just some random black guy who hadn't paid his child support.
Why? I'm not sure of procedure, so this is an assumption. The cop runs the tag and sees a warrant out for unpaid child support. Let's also assume that they can't serve those warrants on that basis alone, so the cop notices a tail-light out (suspect IMO) and makes a stop. The guy, knowing he's going to jail, makes a tremendously stupid decision and runs.
While we're playing the 'what if' game, how ignorant is it to flee after a traffic stop in the first place? Assuming the car is registered in your name, they already have your information and you just made whatever situation you were in 1,000x worse.
Edit:
Just read your post above mine that you obviously spent a lot of time typing while I was responding to your first. The short answer to your super long scenario - you know you fucked up, you take your lumps and you go to jail. You don't fight. You don't flee. You pay the price for being a dumbass. Some of us have done pretty much the exact same thing, but substitute 'concealed weapon' for 'valid driver's license', and you have a scenario that many people can relate to, myself included.
A few posts ago, non-redneck westsider, you mentioned that Stephen had brought up Kiko battles but the scenario you used for that incident was completely incorrect. It was in broad daylight, he did not run in a vehicle and there was at the time some amount of doubt as to whether he really had a gun or not. Most accept that he did, including me, and that it was a tragic set of circumstances, but now, I am wondering what really happened. I also understand, we will never know with absolute certainty.
In this latest case, every situation that every officer involved with this incident was ever involved in will be questioned and perhaps rightfully so. How can the public, especially one already so distrustful of the police, have faith that any of these types of incidents, including the death of Kiko Battles, happens the way the officers have claimed? That is the long lasting effect this latest incident will have: the distrust of all of the officers on the streets just increased ten fold.
The jobs of the honest and upstanding officers just got much harder.
Quote from: strider on April 09, 2015, 08:25:14 AM
A few posts ago, non-redneck westsider, you mentioned that Stephen had brought up Kiko battles but the scenario you used for that incident was completely incorrect. It was in broad daylight, he did not run in a vehicle and there was at the time some amount of doubt as to whether he really had a gun or not. Most accept that he did, including me, and that it was a tragic set of circumstances, but now, I am wondering what really happened. I also understand, we will never know with absolute certainty.
That was my mistake. The thread that was resuscitated that I pulled my info from is here:
JSO Shoots Unarmed Fleeing Man in the Back (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,10722.0.html)
I wasn't familiar with the Kiko incident and thought those incidents were one in the same.
Quote
The jobs of the honest and upstanding officers just got much harder.
Agreed.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 08, 2015, 10:42:55 PM
Edit:
Just read your post above mine that you obviously spent a lot of time typing while I was responding to your first. The short answer to your super long scenario - you know you fucked up, you take your lumps and you go to jail. You don't fight. You don't flee. You pay the price for being a dumbass. Some of us have done pretty much the exact same thing, but substitute 'concealed weapon' for 'valid driver's license', and you have a scenario that many people can relate to, myself included.
I'm speculating here, but it probably stands to reason that people living in lower socioeconomic neighborhoods (LSN) have more of an opportunity to have interactions with cops than people who live in, say, gated subdivisions. I know there are cops that walk the beat who take the time to get to know the people in those neighborhoods, and they treat them with respect. Those aren't the cops I'm talking about right now.
So the guy living in the LSN is probably more likely to get hassled for doing the same thing that the guy in the gated neighborhood might. If I'm walking down the street in, say, Hidden Hills with an open beer in my hand to visit my neighbor, nothing's going to happen. Hell, the cop that lives down the street might give me a friendly wave as I walk by. Now, if someone in a LSN walks down the street drinking a beer, it might not be quite so uneventful. Even if he doesn't get arrested, just having some cop fuck with you is going to harden your feelings. Now multiply that by 24 hours a day 7 days a week. You might be a completely upstanding citizen with not even a parking ticket on your record, but you're a second-class citizen in your own neighborhood.
I think that's part of why running from a cop from our perspective seems so unfathomable, and why running from the cop seemed like a reasonable response by Mr. Scott.
The coverage of this sure does make it seem that the 24 news networks want another Ferguson.
Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2015, 10:53:36 AM
Quote from: fsquid on April 09, 2015, 10:52:24 AM
The coverage of this sure does make it seem that the 24 news networks want another Ferguson.
The lack of coverage made it possible to have hundreds more shootings. maybe thousands more.
I guess some people would prefer that.
of course not, but the guy is behind bars, will be tried. Unsure the need for it to continue to be A block material 48 hours later. Unsure how this will prevent this sort of thing from happening in the future as you will continue to have cops (both real and flashlight kinds) on power trips.
Also agree on Ajax's commentary.
So, ahem, what's everybody's objection to body cameras again?
Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2015, 11:40:15 AM
Keep in mind that there was already a goFundme page for this murderer. Which has now been shut down.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/08/michael-slager-gofundme_n_7028300.html
A fundraising page dedicated to South Carolina police officer Michael Slager was shut down by GoFundMe on Wednesday.
Slager was charged with the murder of 50-year-old Walter Scott after video surfaced of him shooting at the unarmed man eight times. GoFundMe's public relations manager, Kelsea Little, told The Huffington Post that the page's removal was "due to a violation of our terms and conditions."
However, Little said GoFundMe was unable to discuss the details of the campaign with anyone other than the organizer because of "privacy concerns."
One source of outside financial support for the Slager family will be North Charleston. In a press conference Wednesday, Mayor Keith Summey confirmed that the town would continue to pay for the medical insurance of the officer's wife, who is eight months pregnant, until the birth of the child.
Comparisons have been drawn between the shooting of Scott and Ferguson, Missouri, teen Michael Brown, including the online fundraising for the officer involved in the shooting in response to protests against police brutality.
Controversy swirled around the establishment of two GoFundMe pages that raised money for Darren Wilson, the officer responsible for the fatal shooting of Brown in July. Combined, they had raised nearly half a million dollars before they disappeared from the Internet late August.
A GoFundMe account for the cop? Are you kidding? And people contributed to it?
Wow...just wow.
GoFundMe accounts for murderers in SC; bigots in Indiana.
What a world.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 09, 2015, 12:52:36 PM
So, ahem, what's everybody's objection to body cameras again?
To be clear, I'm in favor of them.
I'm sure cost is one objection, but that can be overcome. Maybe cities could start selling their MRAPs and other surplus military equipment to pay for body cameras. :D
The main concern I have is privacy for victims or for people who are falsely accused. (I'm sure defense attorneys and civil liberties groups will think of a lot more). If cops barge into my house for any reason, I might not want the worst, most private moment of my life subject to Freedom of Information Act requests (or whatever the local equivalents are) and plastered all over the media. I can't stand hearing 911 calls, it seems so invasive, but I guess it helps sell ads. I'm sure TV stations wouldn't hesitate to show some juicy video footage. I think that can get worked out, but not before a few innocent people are horribly exploited.
Cops will want common-sense rules (ability to turn off cameras during personal conversations, bathroom breaks), and there would be times when they would need to turn off the camera to make a witness or a victim comfortable (for example, victims of sexual assault). We could spend months talking about it and still not cover everything.
I'm leaning toward my privacy issues being overcome by my public safety concerns, so I'm in favor of deploying body cameras as soon as is practically possible. I can't help the nagging feeling that I'm being manipulated into giving up my privacy just like all the people that thought the Patriot Act sounded like a great idea at the time. I could whip up a scenario where you combine these walking body cameras with facial recognition software and metadata and you could set up a turnkey totalitarian society, but my tinfoil hat is out for repairs right now. ;)
Numerous studies have shown that cops with cameras are more polite, have fewer complaints filed against them, have better relationships with citizens, etc.
Have either of our Sheriff candidates given a firm answer about body cameras? I remember hearing them asked a couple of weeks ago and I think they both gave wishy-washy answers, and I haven't read anything since then.
Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2015, 11:01:06 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/09/michael-slager-excessive-force_n_7032212.html
QuoteShe had provided the officers with a detailed description of her ex-boyfriend, Matthew Givens, who is about 5 feet, 5 inches tall. Mario Givens stands well over 6 feet.
Don't you know that all of us black guys, in certain areas of town, look the same! ;) Heck, even as far back as the 80s, when I was growing up, we all knew we were suspects, regardless of height and weight, when a crime committed by a black guy was reported.
Nothing new here. Slager seems like a tase first type of guy. If some guy has unsuccessfully attempted to tase you for your tail light being out, you'll probably attempt to run too!
QuoteThe Times cites a case described in the Justice Department's recent report on police practices in Ferguson, Missouri: "a traffic stop in which a Ferguson officer told the driver's 16-year-old son not to videotape him." The officer ultimately "wrestled the phone away from the teenager, and everyone in the car was arrested 'under disputed circumstances that could have been clarified by a video recording.'" Such incidents are familiar to Reason readers, and they often end with trumped-up charges such as interfering with police, disorderly conduct, or (my favorite) resisting arrest.
Because so many cops still don't get it (or get it but don't care), it is worth emphasizing at every opportunity that the right to record police is not some wacky, newfangled legal theory. It has been explicitly upheld by at least four federal appeals courts—in the 1st, 7th, 9th, and 11th circuits—and implicitly recognized by others. Federal judges outside of those four circuits have ruled that the right to record flows logically from other First Amendment rights, especially the right to gather information, and that it applies equally to all citizens, not just credentialed journalists.
Read the rest here: http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/09/the-shooting-of-walter-scott-and-the-rig#.myrs9e:SUcL (http://reason.com/blog/2015/04/09/the-shooting-of-walter-scott-and-the-rig#.myrs9e:SUcL)
Come on, the only ones with race issues are those in the media. They are obviously using the race card to grab viewers.
Obviously, there is no way race issues can possibly exist in America. Media companies know how to exploit the fantasy of racism in America.
This is what I am reading and hearing anytime a situation like this happens. :-[
(http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/10/19/bryan-stevenson----credit-nina-subin_custom-85f8dbb86c7cfa2dd19f0a4a22a9a0d793c5c9e8-s300-c85.jpg)
One Lawyer's Fight For Young Blacks And 'Just Mercy'
http://www.npr.org/2014/10/20/356964925/one-lawyers-fight-for-young-blacks-and-just-mercy (http://www.npr.org/2014/10/20/356964925/one-lawyers-fight-for-young-blacks-and-just-mercy)
This is a link to a radio interview with Bryan Stevenson on "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross.
^^^Why, because he's black Stephendare? That's some racist ish. Even when I repeatedly said that the North Charleston cop is guilty... Proof that many white liberals are the most racist. It's always the white people (liberals) on MJ that give me antagonistic crap, never black people... Stay classy Stephen....
^^^I never call people directly out like you did to me. I can be cordial with people that I disagree with certain issues on; Disagreeing with a person on one opinion, and having a short memory and giving that same person props with another opinion that I agree with. It's called being a gentleman, versus being a vindictive little weasel that you seem to be...You think that everyone has to agree with you, and if they don't you attack in the most indirect weasely way...
Are you kidding, with that 'thanks for showing you true feelings'? Even when I didn't reply to your earlier post, you just had to attack me with some racist over the top remark, misrepresenting my position on the North Charleston case....Fact is that many white liberals have to protect their main interest, which is the constant victimization of black people; If someone objects to that position, they will be attacked. Many liberal policies (and many conservative polices also) have ruined America. Fact is that you think you're helping blacks by treating all of us like disabled children, but it's a fact that you are hurting us. You've went very low before, but this is a record, even for you...
^^^There has been cases that I thought my opinion was right, but I turned out to be wrong. Answer this question Stephen name ONE 'racially related' officer shooting case that your initial opinion was wrong, and the officer was actually justified? If you can't, you obviously are very biased in your opinions, as you are one of many sheeple brainwashed by the very powerful liberal based media.
Proof that race matters in media, google 'Luis Rodriguez' a minority in Oklahoma, who's basically a 'Hispanic Eric Garner'. I didn't see any constant media attention with his case, it blew in the wind very quickly. There's your proof. I don't like it and you don't have to accept the facts, but it's the truth.
Quote from: stephendare on April 11, 2015, 09:42:27 PM
I think its pretty clear that you are back to your old hatred of white liberals.
This boils simply down to the legitimate use of police power, vs a license to kill.Thats all, and death doesn't care what color you are.
^^^I don't 'hate' anyone, but murderers, rapist etc. It's not a coincidence that white liberals like yourself are the most aggressive with foisting their very strong opinions upon humanity; I'm attacked by them the most. Notice that I didn't say ALL white liberals. You've reached a different stratosphere with your unprovoked political racist attack on me. I have very tough skin though, and someone being racist (like your video linking me) isn't the end of the world.
'Old prejudices' LOL WTF??
Quote from: TheCat on April 10, 2015, 11:42:18 AM
Come on, the only ones with race issues are those in the media. They are obviously using the race card to grab viewers.
Obviously, there is no way race issues can possibly exist in America. Media companies know how to exploit the fantasy of racism in America.
This is what I am reading and hearing anytime a situation like this happens. :-[
Quote from: TheCat on April 10, 2015, 11:42:18 AM
Come on, the only ones with race issues are those in the media. They are obviously using the race card to grab viewers.
Obviously, there is no way race issues can possibly exist in America. Media companies know how to exploit the fantasy of racism in America.
This is what I am reading and hearing anytime a situation like this happens. :-[
Racism does exist in America and always will to some extent. I also believe that media companies will overplay the race card to fill airtime.
Quote from: fsquid on April 12, 2015, 06:19:50 PM
Racism does exist in America and always will to some extent.
Yep.
NSFW
https://www.youtube.com/v/EXwGjvGnW3c?
Beautiful ..... love it.
The video I mean.
The sonovabitch is right .... 90 % right.
No one wants to see any police officer killed in the line of duty. When an officer was killed on the job in Texas a few years ago, he was honored and memorialized with a line of police cars, firetrucks, and various other government agencies that stretched for miles. That was my understanding of what it meant to be a police officer; you willingly risked putting yourself in harm's way if that's what the job called for, in order to serve and protect, and we acknowledged that sacrifice by honouring those who lost their lives working to make out better.
It's become abundantly clear that a frightening number (if i may so majority) of police officers are not willing to get a fucking hangnail if that's what it takes to protect and serve. Twice a day police officers encounters unambiguously non-lethal force and don't hesitate to kill a citizen. I don't want to argue with anyone over the legality of a police radio; there are too many examples for any rational person to maintain any benefit of the doubt.
What happened? At what point did police officers become a class of citizens that's allowed to scram the fuck out of harm's way as soon as someone assaults or moves toward them, or glances at them funny, or is black? No one wants to see a police officer get injured, not does anyone believe that it's appropriate for anyone to assault or hurt one, and legally we do not punish resisting arrest, assaulting an officer, or walking down a dark stairwell with death, so fuck the tired arguments of blaming the deceased.
I am not denigrating the job that they do, nor the risks that they take. I am fucking outraged and appalled at the cowards who don't have the integrity to admit that they can't handle the situations that they're paid to potentially walk into (Cleveland Arms). And just as disgusted by the silence of the mythical "good cops', who are willing to fulfill their duty, but equally willing to work alongside and protect the selfish assholes who wear the uniform and abandon its implicit responsibilities in case they take a punch.
When did this change? Am I completely wrong thinking that officers were ever expected to act with any bravery? I mean, i know I'm underselling the problem of police brutality, police shootings, and the integrity of out police officers as it currently exists, but I honestly thought that we respected the police largely because they were willing to take on dangerous situations with a goal of making them safer. If they are just a protected class of dickheads with 077's License to kill,then how does anyone maintain a shred of respect? Fuckery fuck.
well things have blown up in Baltimore now.
Unfortunately, it was only a matter of time......
It didn't have to be a matter of time. Cops admitted they had no reason to chase this guy. In Florida you need probable cause to accost someone, although that has never stopped JSO. They beat the crap out of him before he even was pushed in van. He's screaming in pain because someone has severed his spine, and they stopped and put him in leg irons. WHY? WHY WAS HE EVEN BEING PURSUED?
Cops should have admitted straight way they fucked up, put guys on leave and stop trying to cover up crimes by cops. Instead they kept blaming others and the cowards wouldn't admit the truth. They killed this guy for nothing.
I hope every single police station stops this shit before everyone gets killed. Cops should have stopped this...........Cops are NOT always right.
This goes a bit deeper than policing
A lot deeper...a few centuries of cause and effect, mixed with high pockets of no hope, poverty and little opportunity. Harsh policing tactics tend to result in the exposed frustration being witnessed in Baltimore now.
After protests in Baltimore over the death of Freddie Gray turned violent on Saturday, Baltimore sports-radio broadcaster Brett Hollander took to Twitter to argue that demonstrations that negatively impact the daily lives of fellow citizens are counter-productive. Orioles COO John Angelos, son of owner Peter Angelos, seized the opportunity to respond with a qualified and brilliant defense of those protesting.
You can read the whole thing in Angelos' Twitter replies, but it's transcribed here for clarity. It's all here because it's all so good. Read the whole thing:
Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night's property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American's civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids' game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don't have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.
http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/04/orioles-john-angelos-baltimore-protests-mlb
Quote from: finehoe on April 28, 2015, 08:42:45 AM
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night's property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American's civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
The undertones of his message is understood, but the bulk of the rioters were teenagers who were give free reign by the mayor to loot and terrorize.
Quote from: stephendare on April 28, 2015, 09:10:42 AM
Quote from: menace1069 on April 28, 2015, 09:03:14 AM
Quote from: finehoe on April 28, 2015, 08:42:45 AM
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night's property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American's civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
The undertones of his message is understood, but the bulk of the rioters were teenagers who were give free reign by the mayor to loot and terrorize.
is that your professional opinion or is that actually backed up by any sources or documentation?
Like was there a meeting where she agreed to these things? Or are you just telling tales out of school?
Thanks for the response, although I'm not quite sure of why you are being snooty about it.
No, it wasn't my professional opinion, but rather what I witnessed on the news coverage.
As my post reads, and there is nothing between the lines, the bulk of the rioters were, according to the video that I saw during the news coverage, teenagers. This was also corroborated by the newscaster on scene in Baltimore.
The second portion of my post "who were give free reign by the mayor to loot and terrorize" was in reference to the Baltimore mayor although she stated specifically so that "they could have space to vent their frustrations."
Again, thanks for responding.
Unfortunately with all the recent events of violence by police, the media has used this opportunity to put a wedge in American society between races. Now personally I am just short of 30 years old so I did not live through the 60s obviously, but I can say with certainty that racial tension/relations are at the worst stage I have seen in my life. Everything most of us have worked so hard for is being destroyed and its "partially" the fault of the media for constantly sticking to one side of the story. I truly believe that Baltimore is just the tip of the iceberg for what is coming in the next few years.
Now Freddie Gray absolutely did NOT deserve what happened to him. He was unarmed and clearly no serious threat. However this does not justify the violent "protesting" or what ever you want to call it. Burning and looting your own community will never accomplish anything besides making the bulk of Americans think to themselves what a bunch of f'ing morons. And the more the media shows footage of these mainly black folks doing stuff like this, the more resentment and disgust builds in many white American's minds. This may or may not be my personal stance, this is just my observation based on the conversations i have had with others.
Quote from: gerschea@gmail.com on April 28, 2015, 09:28:15 AM
Unfortunately with all the recent events of violence by police, the media has used this opportunity to put a wedge in American society between races. Now personally I am just short of 30 years old so I did not live through the 60s obviously, but I can say with certainty that racial tension/relations are at the worst stage I have seen in my life. Everything most of us have worked so hard for is being destroyed and its "partially" the fault of the media for constantly sticking to one side of the story. I truly believe that Baltimore is just the tip of the iceberg for what is coming in the next few years.
Now Freddie Gray absolutely did NOT deserve what happened to him. He was unarmed and clearly no serious threat. However this does not justify the violent "protesting" or what ever you want to call it. Burning and looting your own community will never accomplish anything besides making the bulk of Americans think to themselves what a bunch of f'ing morons. And the more the media shows footage of these mainly black folks doing stuff like this, the more resentment and disgust builds in many white American's minds. This may or may not be my personal stance, this is just my observation based on the conversations i have had with others.
Completely agree. The stupidity of riots are not limited to a particular race. Look at any of the various championship ball games where the vast majority of the rioters are white. What exactly are they rioting about, that their team won or lost? WHY would you riot over that?
Anyways, Freddie Gray and countless others like Mr. Scott in Charleston who was shot in back as he ran away from the cop, do not deserve what happened to them and that cop will be held accountable as the DA swiftly arrested him. This type of behavior absolutely HAS to be addressed in law enforcement agencies nationwide.
As a veteran of the Army, one of the things that has always stuck in my mind from one of my drill sergeants is that we all bleed green (Army colors), meaning that we are all the same and we all deserve to be treated fairly. There is much distance between the various sectors of society and although you can say that everyone is given the same chances and opportunities in life, that is not the case at all.
Quote from: menace1069 on April 28, 2015, 09:25:48 AMThe second portion of my post "who were give free reign by the mayor to loot and terrorize" was in reference to the Baltimore mayor although she stated specifically so that "they could have space to vent their frustrations."
Again, thanks for responding.
I'm working from home today and I currently have Fox News on in the background (listened to CNN last night). The mayor's comment was taken out of context by media. Even Fox admitted it.
Quote from: gerschea@gmail.com on April 28, 2015, 09:28:15 AM
Unfortunately with all the recent events of violence by police, the media has used this opportunity to put a wedge in American society between races. Now personally I am just short of 30 years old so I did not live through the 60s obviously, but I can say with certainty that racial tension/relations are at the worst stage I have seen in my life. Everything most of us have worked so hard for is being destroyed and its "partially" the fault of the media for constantly sticking to one side of the story. I truly believe that Baltimore is just the tip of the iceberg for what is coming in the next few years.
I'm a 37-year-old black male. My parents grew up during segregation. I grew up in a pretty rough neighborhood. Growing up, I'm been harrased before, so I understand how some feel. From my view, nothing has changed. The undertone has always been around. Riots happen from time to time when people who feel oppressed, get to the point where that frustration reaches a certain level. Sort of like a volcano eruption. Even St. Pete had a riot during the 1990s. Most probably don't know or forgotten about it because there was no twitter, facebook, instagram, etc. around to make things go viral. Social media has just exposed things on a larger scale. I do agree that Baltimore is just the tip of the iceberg. I was talking to a friend a few months back about some of the acts being exposed across the country and she made a comment to the likes of "they really want people to burn this mofo down." I guess she was poetic.
QuoteNow Freddie Gray absolutely did NOT deserve what happened to him. He was unarmed and clearly no serious threat. However this does not justify the violent "protesting" or what ever you want to call it. Burning and looting your own community will never accomplish anything besides making the bulk of Americans think to themselves what a bunch of f'ing morons. And the more the media shows footage of these mainly black folks doing stuff like this, the more resentment and disgust builds in many white American's minds. This may or may not be my personal stance, this is just my observation based on the conversations i have had with others.
Yes, burning down your own hood didn't make any sense in the 1960s and neither does it now. I'm no advocate of rioting but if you're going to burn down something, it probably shouldn't be your own neighborhood and businesses. Unfortunately, that's a reaction that more people will focus on than the decades of continued events that build up to these types of ugly moments in urban america's history.
Quote from: gerschea@gmail.com on April 28, 2015, 09:28:15 AM
Unfortunately with all the recent events of violence by police, the media has used this opportunity to put a wedge in American society between races. Now personally I am just short of 30 years old so I did not live through the 60s obviously, but I can say with certainty that racial tension/relations are at the worst stage I have seen in my life. Everything most of us have worked so hard for is being destroyed and its "partially" the fault of the media for constantly sticking to one side of the story. I truly believe that Baltimore is just the tip of the iceberg for what is coming in the next few years.
Now Freddie Gray absolutely did NOT deserve what happened to him. He was unarmed and clearly no serious threat. However this does not justify the violent "protesting" or what ever you want to call it. Burning and looting your own community will never accomplish anything besides making the bulk of Americans think to themselves what a bunch of f'ing morons. And the more the media shows footage of these mainly black folks doing stuff like this, the more resentment and disgust builds in many white American's minds. This may or may not be my personal stance, this is just my observation based on the conversations i have had with others.
I agree 100 percent. Everyone knows that the B'more cops are under scrutiny with this suspicious death on their hands, but is it cause go and burn down a fucking city?? I can go on forever concerning my disgust of these 'protesters' but I won't because I'm the evil 'bad guy' that's not within the mainstream media flock of sheep... Embarrassing.
^Well you do have protestors and then you have others taking advantage of an opportunity. Some kids got some free shoes last night and I'm sure Al Sharpton will get his 5 seconds in the limelight as well. It's important not to stereotype in situations like this.
^^^For the record, the actual protesters are fine (which is why I put protesters in quotes). I was referring to the criminal element; The looters, the arsonists, the attackers, etc etc etc. Sadly all the observers will remember is the violence.
gotcha!
"There's a reason you separate military and the people. One fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects it's people. When you the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to be people".
We're looking at a variation of this theme, where the police and military have melded into each other both culturally and politically such that tactics and cultures guiding both are the same. I'm pretty sure 9/11 had a huge part in setting the stage for this- that when we started really handing over responsibilities like counter-terrorism operations to the police, which require a fundamentally 'military' outlook, and training to be able to enact, but which we never really trained for-just handed them the responsibilities and nifty toys and told them to go for it. After that, the mission creep takes over - and that half trained 'military' mindset starts expanding into more and more functions of the police, and the people the police are supposed to be protecting morph in 'civilian until proven a threat' to 'enemy combatant until proven otherwise'. Add this to the virulent undercurrent of racism and classism that flows just under the surface in American political and social life, and you have a recipe for what is a war on the poor, ethical minorities, mentally ill and anyone else that fires up American anxieties.
What made police in FB give up to 80 miles per hour chase for a shoplifter and then shot him in the head yesterday? Don't tell me a syringe.
QuoteWalter Scott shooting: mistrial declared in case against former police officer
The trial of the former police officer who shot dead Walter Scott, an unarmed African American, in an incident that was caught on cellphone video and reignited the debate on race and policing in the US, has ended in a mistrial.
Michael Slager, 35, was caught on film shooting Scott, 50, five times from behind after pursuing the father of four when he fled a traffic stop in South Carolina in April 2015. The video filmed by a witness, which propelled the case into the global spotlight, showed Scott was running away with his back turned when Slager, then an officer with the North Charleston police department, opened fire.
The jury of 11 white people and one black person was unable to reach a unanimous decision on the murder and manslaughter charges, meaning the case resulted in a mistrial. The result appears to have hung on the opinion of single juror who, on Friday, indicated in a note to the judge, Clifton Newman, that they could not "with good conscience consider a guilty verdict".
The jury's foreperson had pushed deliberations into a fourth day, after tense scenes in court on Friday, allowing jurors a weekend break after a monthlong trial.
The Scott family's attorneys said after the trial concluded that prosecutor Scarlett Wilson had assured them she would seek a retrial at the earliest possible date.
Full Article (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/dec/05/walter-scott-shooting-michael-slager-police-officer-mistrial?CMP=fb_gu)
My friends in SC say the prosecutor is quite bad. Maybe the state should bring in someone else for the retrial.
Quote from: fsquid on December 06, 2016, 06:59:05 AM
My friends in SC say the prosecutor is quite bad. Maybe the state should bring in someone else for the retrial.
My uneducated guess is that the prosecution let a juror slip through who had ZERO intention of prosecuting a LEO.
With all of the varying verdicts that the judge was allowing, and not being able to agree to anything, means that short of an acquittal, that juror probably wasn't going to let it go.