The first of the three legs of the First Coast Expressway is scheduled to be complete by the end of 2016. The new toll road's impact on Clay County is already being felt, and this $1 billion+ transportation project will definitely change Northeast Florida.
I found the thread on this forum from 2010 (First Coast Outer Beltway: Should It Be Built?), and thought five years later, as the new roadway is being built, would be a good time to explore how people imagine this project will change Northeast Florida.
One example of the type of impact a project like this can have is the new St. Vincent's hospital in Middleburg. It opened in the fall of 2013, and is already expanding to handle more patients. Initial investment of $80 million, and now a new $30 million expansion. The hospital and associated medical offices created over 700 new jobs for Clay County. More will be added with the new expansion. The precursor to the First Coast Expressway, Branan Field Road, opened the area up to development. Without improved transportation like Branan Field/First Coast Expressway, there would be no St. Vincent's or any of the other commercial development that is happening in the area.
I'm curious how five years and the project being under construction may have changed people's perception of the First Coast Expressway and its impact on Northeast Florida.
My perception is still the same as it was five years ago. I don't believe the resulting private sector investment will ever equal the capital and long term operational and maintenance costs laid upon the back of the taxpayer. To ultimately equal out, the resulting private development needs to be a level of density that Duval, Clay and St. Johns would never approve.
Quote from: Edward on March 22, 2015, 09:47:15 AM
One example of the type of impact a project like this can have is the new St. Vincent's hospital in Middleburg. It opened in the fall of 2013, and is already expanding to handle more patients. Initial investment of $80 million, and now a new $30 million expansion. The hospital and associated medical offices created over 700 new jobs for Clay County. More will be added with the new expansion. The precursor to the First Coast Expressway, Branan Field Road, opened the area up to development. Without improved transportation like Branan Field/First Coast Expressway, there would be no St. Vincent's or any of the other commercial development that is happening in the area.
I'm curious how five years and the project being under construction may have changed people's perception of the First Coast Expressway and its impact on Northeast Florida.
I disagree. Clay County has been growing steadily without the promise of the FCE. Demand for medical service in the Southern end of the county is nothing that was brought about by the FCE. OPMC has such a bad reputation with many in Clay, that many people who are closer to OPMC still travel to the Baptist and St. Vincent's locations in Clay, which has fueled the overwhelming demand.
FCE isn't really improving transportation in the immediate area either. A divided highway such as SR17 would have served the immediate area just fine, improving connectivity and giving commuters other options than SR 21 & SR 17.
Thanks for your replies. I agree Clay has been growing for many years. Population in 1960 was 19,500 and now it's more than 10-times that. And you're right, the Middleburg/Oakleaf area is growing fast. The population growth is definitely what brought a new hospital, and all the new commercial development. My point about St. Vincent's was the choice of location. Branan Field Road (soon to be FCE), opened the area up to development because it allows for better transportation. More people + better transportation options = new development (hospitals, retailers, you name it).
It is hard to imagine just how much Clay is going to change with this new I-295-type interstate going through the southern half of the county. Creating a connector road from I-10 to I-95 that bypasses the congestion of downtown Jacksonville is going to bring a lot more traffic through Clay. Though most will just keep on going, many will stop for gas, etc. And it will make commuting easier for everyone in the region.
I know some will like what's happening, and others will not. The road has always been controversial. If you can remember or imagine Jacksonville pre-295, you can see how much has changed there since I-295 was opened in 1970. The new FCE will open southern Clay County to just that sort of growth. Whether 50 years from now people think it was a good idea or not will depend on how well Clay plans and implements that growth. Only time will tell. One thing is certain - there will be significant change.
I think Gators312 point is that the hospital would have came regardless of the FCE. It just would have located along an existing corridor already established and built with tax dollars. However, yes, when we construct billion dollar highways through cheap undeveloped land, development tends to happen. That's side of lobbying for infrastructure projects that most tend to overlook when it comes to highway construction. FCE isn't meant to relieve traffic congestion. It's being built to spur development in additional areas of Clay and St. Johns Counties. Nothing wrong with that, I just wish our leaders would admit it upfront. If we could get to that point, we could have a realistic discussion about what percentage of these projects should be financed by the private and public sectors.
lake - I agree. It is a never-ending debate. Impact fees, concurrency fees, etc are designed to help off-set the cost of development. Whether it is enough or not can keep developers and politicians haggling into the wee hours of the night. Developers think every fee is too much, and many people think no fee is enough. At the end of the day it is the end user who is paying the bill. Either through development fees added to the cost/price of the home, or through higher taxes. Not original, but there is no such thing as a free lunch.
The real "problem" is continuous population growth. As long as people keep making babies, there will need to be more hospitals, more roads, more schools, more Walmarts, and so on. I don't see that changing anytime soon. The debate of who pays goes on. (How about a baby impact fee?)The FCE is tolled to help pay for it. I don't know the numbers well enough to know if it's a little, a lot, or all, but the people who drive on it get to pay for it. As for the resulting development, supply and demand. Oakleaf was red-hot in the early 2000's and then during the recession building came to a screeching halt, along with property values. Growing is good. Too much, too fast is not.
The way I see it, remaining status quo is decline. Growth is fine, as long as it's sustainable and fiscally responsible. Growth doesn't have to equate to building $2 billion beltways we'll never pay for, if local public policy is organized to direct growth to certain areas where the investment in infrastructure has already been made. Jax has an overall population density of less than 2k residents per square mile. Most census tracts in the urban core have less than 5k residents per square mile. We could literally triple our population without straining the existing roadway network we've already invested in. We just have to get to the point of tying our transportation investments with supportive land use policies.
Lakelander, the only problem is that requires a heavy hand (far too heavy, in my opinion) that forces folks to do what they clearly don't want to do. You appear to not like the choices that have prevailed. Cool. But it is clearly what Americans prefer. Especially Americans in this region.
You plead for an acknowledgment that admits to building Florida 23 "only" for the sake of development. That really gives you away on this topic. I'm in Orange Park regularly. That road isn't built only to open things up for development; that's ridiculous. There was a clearly demonstrable need, given the choices people had made and were clearly continuing to make.
If we're asking for admissions, maybe you need to make one too.
And that's really the problem with all of this stuff. So many of you don't like the choices your fellow citizens are making. Maybe you've been outworked politically. Maybe that's all it is. But that's not the fault of the folks what want to live in the surrounding communities that encircle Big Duval. I happen to be a fan of the core, love downtown, encouraged folks to buy in Springfield and am very sympathetic (by and large) to the apparent mission of this website. But, my goodness . . . .
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 24, 2015, 07:19:33 AM
Lakelander, the only problem is that requires a heavy hand (far too heavy, in my opinion) that forces folks to do what they clearly don't want to do. You appear to not like the choices that have prevailed. Cool. But it is clearly what Americans prefer. Especially Americans in this region.
People in this region don't like further taxing themselves for things that will never pay for themselves. The public didn't demand a $2 billion highway. In fact, there was a falling out that required the FDOT secretary to come to Jax and threaten to take his road building money away when the community got upset at having to pay tolls. America wants a lot of things, but to say that residents want everything we do from a public standpoint is highly inaccurate.
QuoteYou plead for an acknowledgment that admits to building Florida 23 "only" for the sake of development. That really gives you away on this topic. I'm in Orange Park regularly. That road isn't built only to open things up for development; that's ridiculous. There was a clearly demonstrable need, given the choices people had made and were clearly continuing to make.If we're asking for admissions, maybe you need to make one too.
It gives me away that I'm a transportation planner who has seen the models and and isn't afraid to call B.S. on the validity of some projects from a traffic flow standpoint. I've been saying this for years, so I'm definitely not hiding behind anything. FCE doesn't connect you to anything that Branan Field Chaffee Road didn't. When it opens, Blanding and Park will still back up. What is will do is create additional capacity for more development along its path. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what the community wants. However, let's be honest about it and get past this notion that it's going to relieve congestion.
QuoteAnd that's really the problem with all of this stuff. So many of you don't like the choices your fellow citizens are making. Maybe you've been outworked politically. Maybe that's all it is.
Correction, traditionally, citizens have not decided on what the region has become today. If that were the case, we'd look and feel completely different. Some highways we know of today would not exist and others projects that we believe aren't imaginable today, may have. However, yes, you are correct that the idea of sustainable spending and investment of public dollars is something that has been definitely outworked politically at the local level. Luckily, things are changing because we're going broke. It's why new expensive money losing projects like FCE are being built as toll roads now.
QuoteBut that's not the fault of the folks what want to live in the surrounding communities that encircle Big Duval. I happen to be a fan of the core, love downtown, encouraged folks to buy in Springfield and am very sympathetic (by and large) to the apparent mission of this website. But, my goodness . . .
Slow down. I never criticized any residents in Clay County or any other community. I'm a true believer in people having the opportunity to select where they want to live. I'm just not so keen on the idea of making others subsidize certain development patterns at the expense of their own quality of life and well being.
Well, damn. That's quite a response and much appreciated. But Branan Field / Chaffee couldn't possibly handle the traffic from development that was built based on a demand for housing in that area & the lure of Clay County Schools. It is simply incorrect to try and assert otherwise.
What I remember from the discussions about the roadway is that much of the opposition came from St. Johns County, not Clay County, and that many in Clay County very much desired another bridge across the St. Johns River. The St. Johns County folks successfully blocked that, IIRC.
The public may not have demanded a $2 billion highway, true, but they did demand roadway expansion. FDOT had to look at regional needs and go from there. This quote: "FCE doesn't connect you to anything that Branan Field Chaffee Road didn't" is flat-out incorrect as well. The southern Orange Park / northern Middleburg area is going to get tremendous relief from that roadwork connecting and heading over to Green Cove Springs and the expanded Shands Bridge.
Subsidizing can be in the eye of the beholder, Ennis. All of government involves taking money from one taxpayer and paying it out to others -- that same taxpayer and others, to lesser and greater degrees -- so it all boils down to subsidizing something or someone in different ways for different things. I note that you didn't (I don't think) particularly take issue with the heavy hand that would be required to *not* alleviate suburban traffic conditions in favor of trying to force more residents into the more compacted urban areas of our region. Yes, there's plenty of land in the urban core and Jacksonville isn't heavily compacted. But if you could hear my relatives who grew up on the Northside (of all places) react with shock and horror at discussions about buying in Springfield . . . come on, man. There are certain realities at play in every urban environment and few are the American regions that come even remotely close to favoring policies that work against the American dream of owning a home with a "real" yard and neighborhood schools . . . and the roadways that allow us to get there and back from work.
Transportation planners, etc., may be frustrated at how that game works but it's a bit disingenuous to hint at or assert that dishonesty is driving the train. It isn't. People know what the deal is. And they are A.O.K. with the bargain that has been struck, period. That's why I'm so hopeful Shad Khan and others can be successful downtown; tip the balance a bit back towards Center City.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 24, 2015, 11:59:21 AM
Well, damn. That's quite a response and much appreciated. But Branan Field / Chaffee couldn't possibly handle the traffic from development that was built based on a demand for housing in that area & the lure of Clay County Schools. It is simply incorrect to try and assert otherwise.
Ideally, new development should pay for itself if you want your community to be financially viable long term. There's several ways to make that happen. It can come in the form of mobility fees, concurrency, higher taxes, TIF districts, etc. In the event of new development not being able to cover the its cost on corridors that don't have the capacity, then it's not market rate feasible unless you're draining money from other resources. If you're a true believer in supply and demand, growth will find a way, regardless of if the public invests $2 billion in the country or not. The problem with this method is it means growth may not happen where some, who stand to financially benefit, want it to happen.
QuoteWhat I remember from the discussions about the roadway is that much of the opposition came from St. Johns County, not Clay County, and that many in Clay County very much desired another bridge across the St. Johns River. The St. Johns County folks successfully blocked that, IIRC.
FCE has been lobbied for, for more than 30 years, by some. Nevertheless, here's an example of opposition from Duval when it realized it was being double taxed to subsidize a project that will send jobs south of the county line.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-10/story/rick-scott-says-alvin-brown-backs-toll-road-mayor-still-says-no?page=4
QuoteThe public may not have demanded a $2 billion highway, true, but they did demand roadway expansion. FDOT had to look at regional needs and go from there.
FCE has been lobbied for by influential decision makers for decades. The public didn't demand anything out there. For years, the state said it wasn't feasible. Then some came up with the idea to get it built as a P3 project. When that failed, due to no private entity being foolish enough to light their investment money on fire, FDOT recently decided to piecemeal funding for it. If backers are lucky, it may take another 20 years for the entire thing to come to reality. With that said, some are already drawing lines and having wet dreams of a northern outer beltway. But make no mistake about it, the public is certainly not "demanding" the construction of a northern outer beltway, just like it did not with the FCE.
QuoteThis quote: "FCE doesn't connect you to anything that Branan Field Chaffee Road didn't" is flat-out incorrect as well. The southern Orange Park / northern Middleburg area is going to get tremendous relief from that roadwork connecting and heading over to Green Cove Springs and the expanded Shands Bridge.
I'm talking about the 15-mile segment current under construction. I don't believe the rest isn't funded for construction. Nevertheless, if we were truly concerned about congestion relief, we'd scrap the beltway, widen/convert a few existing roads into complete streets, add another river crossing, revamp zoning regulations and invest several modes of transportation. Clay would still get the growth and development it wants. It would just be more fiscally viable long term.
QuoteSubsidizing can be in the eye of the beholder, Ennis. All of government involves taking money from one taxpayer and paying it out to others -- that same taxpayer and others, to lesser and greater degrees -- so it all boils down to subsidizing something or someone in different ways for different things. I note that you didn't (I don't think) particularly take issue with the heavy hand that would be required to *not* alleviate suburban traffic conditions in favor of trying to force more residents into the more compacted urban areas of our region.
At the end of the day, growth should pay for itself regardless of whether it's in Clay, Jax's urban core or Apopka. If it's not, somewhere down the line the chickens will come home to roost and it won't be pretty when they do. Just ask Detroit, Fresno or Birmingham.
QuoteYes, there's plenty of land in the urban core and Jacksonville isn't heavily compacted. But if you could hear my relatives who grew up on the Northside (of all places) react with shock and horror at discussions about buying in Springfield . . . come on, man. There are certain realities at play in every urban environment and few are the American regions that come even remotely close to favoring policies that work against the American dream of owning a home with a "real" yard and neighborhood schools . . . and the roadways that allow us to get there and back from work.
My position has nothing to do with whatever you're envisioning in this quote. I live in the Southside for crying out loud. However, I'm not sure what I highlighted in bold is the "American Dream" of the 21st Century, according to US Census statistics generated over the last 15 years. Btw, roads are needed and our existing roads need to be maintained and reinvested in. I don't hate roads. I'm just not a fan of going down a path of fiscal irresponsibility. Big difference.
QuoteTransportation planners, etc., may be frustrated at how that game works but it's a bit disingenuous to hint at or assert that dishonesty is driving the train. It isn't. People know what the deal is. And they are A.O.K. with the bargain that has been struck, period. That's why I'm so hopeful Shad Khan and others can be successful downtown; tip the balance a bit back towards Center City.
I'm not frustrated. I'm paid to alter the game to something that will allow our communities to discover innovative methods that result in spending our tax dollars more wisely. Most of the road projects coming arcoss my desk these days are being planned and designed as context sensitive or complete streets. Many retrofits aren't expanding auto capacity. They are focusing on utilizing our thoroughfares more multimodal friendly. As time goes on, we'll see less FCEs (100% auto-centric roads built on ideas from the 20th century) and more projects like the FWB expansion and Riverplace Blvd retrofit. In addition, we'll see more demand for altering of land uses to meet the economic and quality-of-life style demands of the 21st century. This will ultimately impact how our core cities and suburbs look. However, this doesn't mean one has to improve at the expense of the other.
RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years. Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much. (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)
And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me.
On the first point, I understand the argument: But what about all the people that moved out there? Well, those same people could be living in any of the multitudes of empty homes in any of the older neighborhoods that circle the city. They chose new and shiny over older and needs some polish because of the prices. When in most realities, the one's who moved out to the new developments are paying MORE due to hidden costs (gas, travel time, HOA, etc...) than if they would have used the same amount of money to refurbish an older home.
In a simplistic nutshell, all the tax money that's generated can go further because it's not all being spent expanding, but being used to enhance what's already there.
Ironically, I had this article pop up in my FB feed while I was typing this...
http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/03/how-much-sprawl-costs-america/388481/?utm_source=SFFB
I'm going to read it, but I'm pretty sure that Ennis and myself have already hit most of the points that they're going to make.
The point about $2 billion in taxpayer dollars wasted on FCE is now moot. FTE is now funding it, paid for with toll revenues. Can we now further the discussion without constantly revisiting the funding sources?
Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year. I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point. I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.
^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:02:32 PM
Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year. I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point. I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.
LMAO at the article about Brown disagreeing with tolls. It's quite obvious that he has no relationship with the Governor or FDOT, because if he did, everyone would be on the same page. He's a populist, pure and simple. He lacks the ability to govern effectively and forge relationships and parterships with other agencies and municipalities. He's in over his head (as many local politicians here are) when it comes to tolling discussions.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:08:57 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:02:32 PM
Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year. I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point. I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.
Still waiting for your source. Not trying to be hostile, just looking for the reasons of your opinions.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:06:34 PM
^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.
Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment. Do you think FTE is in the business of making bad financial decisions?
BTW, per the 5 Year Work Program, ROW and mitigation has been funded, and construction has not, for the Blanding to I-95 segment.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:18:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:08:57 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:02:32 PM
Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year. I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point. I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.
Still waiting for your source. Not trying to be hostile, just looking for the reasons of your opinions.
I'm basically talking about the models we use and flaws in them. With that said, you'll be waiting awhile. The only real digging I'm doing over the next few weeks with my free time is for my upcoming book script deadline for Arcadia Publishing. However, if you want to cherry pick something you believe validly shows the FCE will result in removing congestion off Blanding and US 17, I'll be more than happy to spend a minute or two poking holes in it. ;)
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
BTW, per the 5 Year Work Program, ROW and mitigation has been funded, and construction has not, for the Blanding to I-95 segment.
Yes, I said earlier that it is not funded for construction. That's going to take a pretty penny. We'll have to wait a bit for Central and South Florida drivers to generate some cash that can be bonded to send up here since we can't afford it.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:06:34 PM
^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.
Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.
It just proves my point that it's a money loser, without additional methods of generating revenue, that's all. Nevertheless, tossing all the bad investments on the backs of the taxpayers isn't the most prudent option either. At some point, someone is going to have to pay the piper.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:38:54 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:18:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:08:57 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:02:32 PM
Also, please source the studies that demostate that FCE doesn't relieve regional traffic congestion for the design year. I've been involved with the project for many years, I've read many of the public documents, and disagree with your point. I'm not a planner by trade, but I understand the overall transportation planning and roadway construction process, and I honestly would love to read what you're reading.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I'll be more than happy to show up on ribbon cutting ceremony day if it relieves congestion between Orange Park and Jacksonville.
Still waiting for your source. Not trying to be hostile, just looking for the reasons of your opinions.
I'm basically talking about the models we use and flaws in them. With that said, you'll be waiting awhile. The only real digging I'm doing over the next few weeks with my free time is for my upcoming book script deadline for Arcadia Publishing. However, if you want to cherry pick something you believe validly shows the FCE will result in removing congestion off Blanding and US 17, I'll be more than happy to spend a minute or two poking holes in it. ;)
Ok, just wanted to see your write that essentially couldn't due to the subjective nature of traffic modeling and forecasting. It's educated guesses at best, sure, that can have holes poked in by either side.
But at the end of the day, common sense always prevails. High speed capacity providing connectivity throughout the region will relieve congestion. Will it spur growth, and thus create more demand? No doubt. But it's all about the connectivity and multiple choices for motorists.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:06:34 PM
^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.
Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.
It just proves my point that it's a money loser, without additional methods of generating revenue, that's all. Nevertheless, tossing all the bad investments on the backs of the taxpayers isn't the most prudent option either. At some point, someone is going to have to pay the piper.
Isn't the NYC subway system considered a money loser? What other modes of transportation are money makers? Commuter transit? Rail? Amtrak? BRT? Come on now.
Infrastructure isn't constructed to make money. User based fees are the way to go.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:50:12 PM
But at the end of the day, common sense always prevails. High speed capacity providing connectivity throughout the region will relieve congestion. Will it spur growth, and thus create more demand? No doubt. But it's all about the connectivity and multiple choices for motorists.
But at the end of the day, doesn't using common sense bring us to the realization that the well is running dry? Thus, we have to find new revenue streams, do better with what we have and take a closer look at the proper integration between land use and our transportation investments.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:40:19 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
BTW, per the 5 Year Work Program, ROW and mitigation has been funded, and construction has not, for the Blanding to I-95 segment.
Yes, I said earlier that it is not funded for construction. That's going to take a pretty penny. We'll have to wait a bit for Central and South Florida drivers to generate some cash that can be bonded to send up here since we can't afford it.
You're mostly right. But honestly, is that really so bad? I'm half joking.
From what I understood during the P3 process, the concessionaire of Dragoon from Spain was VERY serious about the P3. But since it fell through, they only way for them to get a piece of the action was to chase the Design-Build jobs. WHICH, BTW, they've won BOTH the North and South projects, allowing them to become established in North Florida.
It's a topic that I've been thinking about for the last few years, and if trends continue, and they continue to "buy" jobs, I'll want to discuss in depth with you further. I think many patriots in this area and state would be interested to know about the amount of tax dollars that are being paid to an international firm and leaving our borders.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 10:04:04 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:50:12 PM
But at the end of the day, common sense always prevails. High speed capacity providing connectivity throughout the region will relieve congestion. Will it spur growth, and thus create more demand? No doubt. But it's all about the connectivity and multiple choices for motorists.
But at the end of the day, doesn't using common sense bring us to the realization that the well is running dry? Thus, we have to find new revenue streams, do better with what we have and take a closer look at the proper integration between land use and our transportation investments.
Is the well running dry? Or are our priorities as a country/state/city have become misguided? Maybe we need to be appropriating our dollars more toward infrastructure, and less on defense spending? How about entitlement spending? It's another discussion of course, but I wont give in that we don't have the money to properly fund infrastructure.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:54:29 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:44:37 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 24, 2015, 09:06:34 PM
^It's not a mute point. Toll revenues will not cover the cost of building and maintaining the road. As time goes on, we'll need to add new streams of revenue if we want to be a fiscally viable community long term. This issue doesn't simply apply to FCE. It deals with a lot of things our communities are facing.
Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment.
It just proves my point that it's a money loser, without additional methods of generating revenue, that's all. Nevertheless, tossing all the bad investments on the backs of the taxpayers isn't the most prudent option either. At some point, someone is going to have to pay the piper.
Isn't the NYC subway system considered a money loser? What other modes of transportation are money makers? Commuter transit? Rail? Amtrak? BRT? Come on now.
Infrastructure isn't constructed to make money. User based fees are the way to go.
Funny you mention the NYC Subway. I just got back from NYC two days ago. NYC is 304 square miles and has over 8.4 million residents. That place is a global economic money generator. That level of density would not have been remotely possible if not for the construction of the subway system over a century ago. So, directly, it may not break even but indirectly, money is flowing like it's growing on trees. I'd love for us to get to a point to where our transportation network generates a level of economic development that indirectly covers our infrastructure costs and more. That situation is a positive return of investment. Unfortunately, we're not there yet.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/New-York-City-March-2015/i-VfF29JP/0/L/DSCF5230-L.jpg)
From my hotel room in Queens.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 24, 2015, 09:27:59 PM
Just because the P3 concessaires couldn't afford the risk doesn't make the project a decent investment. Do you think FTE is in the business of making bad financial decisions?
The Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway would be proof that yes, sometimes they do!
Lol, the Polk Parkway! 16 years later and you can still lay down and take a nap on the Auburndale segment without worrying about getting run over. With that said, some landowners down there want a second loop around Haines City.
(http://www.centralpolkparkway.com/images/CPPalternativeMAP.jpg)
To a degree, the talk happening in Clay now reminds me of the talk surrounding the need for the Polk Parkway back in early 1990s. In 1990, they were predicting that Winter Haven would have 60k residents by 2000. It's 2015 and the city is still under 40k.
I don't think there's much of an argument that this is going to be a major traffic alleviator, or that it's something the citizens actually want. And it's definitely not the case that people want tolls, in fact it's exactly the opposite.
It does have the potential to spark economic development, particularly in two areas that are far two heavy in residential right now. But if economic development is really what we want, there are plenty of things that would have a higher payoff for $2 billion.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 24, 2015, 05:30:18 PM
RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years. Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much. (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)
And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me.
This is precisely the point. It isn't for you. Fine. Those people deciding to buy in Clay and Saint Johns counties aren't stupid. And honestly, they don't give a damn what is and isn't for you -- just as you likely don't give a damn what is and isn't for them. They made an informed decision to invest where they are investing.
They subsidize
many things that flow to benefit Duval County, and know this for a fact.
I tire of the lectures and they likely tire of them, too. And I'm not alone:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/15/the-people-designing-your-cities-have-no-idea-what-you-or-the-rest-of-the-middle-class-want/
QuoteCurrent conventional wisdom embraces density, sky-high scrapers, vastly expanded mass transit and ever-smaller apartments. It reflects a desire to create an ideal locale for hipsters and older, sophisticated urban dwellers. It's city as adult Disneyland or "entertainment machine," chock-a-block with chic restaurants, shops and festivals.
Overlooked, or even disdained, is what most middle-class residents of the metropolis actually want: home ownership, rapid access to employment throughout the metropolitan area, good schools and "human scale" neighborhoods.
A vast majority of people — roughly 80 percent — prefer a single-family home, whether in the city or surrounding communities . . . .
In 2012, nine of the ten fastest-growing large metropolitan areas were in the Sunbelt, including big Texas cities like Austin, Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth, along with Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. In 2013, Houston alone had more housing starts than the entire state of California . . . .
To a large extent, this growth is fueled by middle-class movement to regions that offer both better economic prospects and more affordable housing prices.
So . . . yes, there's another side to the story. One most Americans believe in, no matter how much others insist otherwise inside their we-know-better-than-you bubble. That Polk Parkway situation may be ridiculous but it is in no way applicable to Clay County and the First Coast Expressway.
I love what you're doing on this site, Ennis, but I'm not bowing down to your knowledge on this subject. As much as I want to tip the balance back a bit toward Center City (Riverside, Downtown, Springfield), I want balance that demonstrates regional respect more.
^No need to bow down to me on this. To each his own. That's the great thing about America. Anyway, I'm not even talking about tipping the balance back to the city center. I'm talking about developing and growing responsible. This is about as regional as it can get. Fiscal unsustainability shouldn't be desired in Duval, Clay, St. Johns or any place for that matter.
Rattler, the issue with this expressway is an issue with the expressway, not with the people and communities it's supposed to serve. In my view, serving those communities and alleviating traffic problems is a secondary goal of the project. The main purpose is economic development. Again, in my view, there are plenty of other ways to spur economic development for less money than this.
I have also seen the traffic models. The First Coast Expressway will do just fine in attracting motorists between I-10 and Blanding.....if (and only if) the toll prices are reasonable. We'e talking something like $0.25 per mile....none of this $10-$12 each way stuff.
That said, the portion from Blanding around to US 17 is a dog. there is very little demand for the road even 25 years from now. The best way to change that is to not widen local roads. That's what the private market wanted to ensure there was no competition and Clay County and FDOT wouldn't agree. And now the result is the public FDOT Turnpike division is building the road.
The same thjng holds true with the river crossing. That has the potential to be a major money maker for the corridor. But since the Shands Bridge is free today, Clay County wants assurances that local trips won't have to pay a toll on the replacement bridge.
And finally, the segment in St. Johns County makes some sense for that growing area.
The sadly comical thing is that the road was sold as an outer beltway and alternative to I-295. Why would anyone (especially trucks) take a nearly 50-mile long toll road versus the currently free (and being widened) I-295?
Reminds me of when I was in Orlando last year. Took 429 from Kissimmee to Mt Dora. There was almost nobody else on the road and it was in the middle of the afternoon. Could not find a purpose for the road other than to open land for possible development.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 26, 2015, 08:51:20 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 24, 2015, 05:30:18 PM
RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years. Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much. (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)
And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me.
This is precisely the point. It isn't for you. Fine. Those people deciding to buy in Clay and Saint Johns counties aren't stupid. And honestly, they don't give a damn what is and isn't for you -- just as you likely don't give a damn what is and isn't for them. They made an informed decision to invest where they are investing. They subsidize many things that flow to benefit Duval County, and know this for a fact.
I tire of the lectures and they likely tire of them, too. And I'm not alone:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/15/the-people-designing-your-cities-have-no-idea-what-you-or-the-rest-of-the-middle-class-want/
QuoteCurrent conventional wisdom embraces density, sky-high scrapers, vastly expanded mass transit and ever-smaller apartments. It reflects a desire to create an ideal locale for hipsters and older, sophisticated urban dwellers. It's city as adult Disneyland or "entertainment machine," chock-a-block with chic restaurants, shops and festivals.
Overlooked, or even disdained, is what most middle-class residents of the metropolis actually want: home ownership, rapid access to employment throughout the metropolitan area, good schools and "human scale" neighborhoods.
A vast majority of people — roughly 80 percent — prefer a single-family home, whether in the city or surrounding communities . . . .
In 2012, nine of the ten fastest-growing large metropolitan areas were in the Sunbelt, including big Texas cities like Austin, Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth, along with Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. In 2013, Houston alone had more housing starts than the entire state of California . . . .
To a large extent, this growth is fueled by middle-class movement to regions that offer both better economic prospects and more affordable housing prices.
So . . . yes, there's another side to the story. One most Americans believe in, no matter how much others insist otherwise inside their we-know-better-than-you bubble. That Polk Parkway situation may be ridiculous but it is in no way applicable to Clay County and the First Coast Expressway.
I love what you're doing on this site, Ennis, but I'm not bowing down to your knowledge on this subject. As much as I want to tip the balance back a bit toward Center City (Riverside, Downtown, Springfield), I want balance that demonstrates regional respect more.
The general public often wants things that don't make practical or financial sense. Having single-family home construction is fine, but we as a society should have a more honest discussion about the true monetary and societal costs on some of these sprawling developments.
I live in Tampa now, so this First Coast Expressway doesn't directly impact me. To me, I see some reasonable arguments on both sides. However, as someone who is a big component of expanded freeway capacity in this state, it just doesn't seem that this project really has solid financial footing. Imagine the amount of quality mass transit that could be built for the amount of money they are spending on the FCE.
Jacksonville already has the best freeway infrastructure in relation to population size in the state. Florida on a whole though does a terrible job with freeway building and design in my opinion. You either get some borderline boondoggles like parts of the Polk Parkway or projects that are 20-40 years too late (I-4 upgrades coming in Orlando). Here in Tampa, 275 is being rebuilt and expanded to 4 lanes in each direction. This design will essentially be obsolete by the time the project is complete because of current traffic levels. They also failed to address the real cause of much of the bottlenecking, which is the SR 60 / Airport interchange coming off the Howard Frankland Bridge.
Whenever I travel, I am always reminded of just how far behind the times Florida really is. Even car-centric metros like Phoenix, AZ have solid freeway networks and are moving forward with good mass-transit options. When I was in LA two weeks ago, I saw the upgrades that have been done to the 110 Fwy south of downtown LA. The freeway has been widened, tolled express lanes have been added, and the metro train runs right down the middle with several stops. That's the kind of comprehensive transportation upgrades I wish we would see more often here in Florida.
Quote from: DemocraticNole on March 26, 2015, 01:10:10 PM
Here in Tampa, 275 is being rebuilt and expanded to 4 lanes in each direction. This design will essentially be obsolete by the time the project is complete because of current traffic levels. They also failed to address the real cause of much of the bottlenecking, which is the SR 60 / Airport interchange coming off the Howard Frankland Bridge.
don't worry....the I-275 reconstruction project creates a big wide median that will soon accommodate tolled express lanes...check out this beauty!
http://previews.urscreativeimaging.com/future_projects/flash-videos/I275.html
And the SR 60 / Airport interchange will be reconstructed as soon as the current I-275 project is done....and following that will be a new span of the Howard Frankland Bridge.
Hooray for more highway capacity!
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 26, 2015, 01:31:19 PM
Quote from: DemocraticNole on March 26, 2015, 01:10:10 PM
Here in Tampa, 275 is being rebuilt and expanded to 4 lanes in each direction. This design will essentially be obsolete by the time the project is complete because of current traffic levels. They also failed to address the real cause of much of the bottlenecking, which is the SR 60 / Airport interchange coming off the Howard Frankland Bridge.
don't worry....the I-275 reconstruction project creates a big wide median that will soon accommodate tolled express lanes...check out this beauty!
http://previews.urscreativeimaging.com/future_projects/flash-videos/I275.html
And the SR 60 / Airport interchange will be reconstructed as soon as the current I-275 project is done....and following that will be a new span of the Howard Frankland Bridge.
Hooray for more highway capacity!
Being talked about and getting built are two different things. The SR 60 interchange and Howard Frankland replacement will take forever to be built. If those are done by 2030, I'd be shocked. The tolled express lanes have no timeline to be built to my knowledge.
I want to encourage more transit use and am a big proponent of both light and heavy rail. However, I don't think we can just take the approach to never expand roadways ever again. The governor should have never canceled the high speed rail project, especially given that he authorized SunRail. I would prefer to see the 275 median used for rail before express lanes. Again, I think the Harbor Transitway in LA (110 Fwy) is a good example of trying to combine freeway expansion with transit upgrades: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbor_Transitway. I leaving transit on the whole for a separate discussion.
I remember waiting for that silver line under the 105 and 110 in the middle of the night. It never showed up. Waiting for 2 hours or so and almost choked on all the smog under all those overpasses.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 26, 2015, 11:27:19 AM
I have also seen the traffic models. The First Coast Expressway will do just fine in attracting motorists between I-10 and Blanding.....if (and only if) the toll prices are reasonable. We'e talking something like $0.25 per mile....none of this $10-$12 each way stuff.
That said, the portion from Blanding around to US 17 is a dog. there is very little demand for the road even 25 years from now. The best way to change that is to not widen local roads. That's what the private market wanted to ensure there was no competition and Clay County and FDOT wouldn't agree. And now the result is the public FDOT Turnpike division is building the road.
The same thjng holds true with the river crossing. That has the potential to be a major money maker for the corridor. But since the Shands Bridge is free today, Clay County wants assurances that local trips won't have to pay a toll on the replacement bridge.
And finally, the segment in St. Johns County makes some sense for that growing area.
The sadly comical thing is that the road was sold as an outer beltway and alternative to I-295. Why would anyone (especially trucks) take a nearly 50-mile long toll road versus the currently free (and being widened) I-295?
Can you please provide a link to your source of the traffic models?
LMAO at the comparison made between LA and Florida. Really?
Trying to compare FDOT, Caltrans, TexDOT, and the rest of the state DOTs isn't really fair considering the revenues, drivers, industries, growth management policies, and other factors involved.
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 26, 2015, 08:51:20 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 24, 2015, 05:30:18 PM
RG, I had many of the same beliefs you do, but have done a complete 180 in the past 8 years. Mostly from having an open mind and trying to see things from others' viewpoint, but also knowing how much I hate to drive in the first place and what changes I can make so that I don't have to do as much. (I ended up starting a drafting business from my home, so that eliminated the 'have to' drive part)
And I'm not against the type of lifestyle that those communities offer, but it's not for me.
This is precisely the point. It isn't for you. Fine. Those people deciding to buy in Clay and Saint Johns counties aren't stupid. And honestly, they don't give a damn what is and isn't for you -- just as you likely don't give a damn what is and isn't for them. They made an informed decision to invest where they are investing. They subsidize many things that flow to benefit Duval County, and know this for a fact.
I tire of the lectures and they likely tire of them, too. And I'm not alone:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/15/the-people-designing-your-cities-have-no-idea-what-you-or-the-rest-of-the-middle-class-want/
QuoteCurrent conventional wisdom embraces density, sky-high scrapers, vastly expanded mass transit and ever-smaller apartments. It reflects a desire to create an ideal locale for hipsters and older, sophisticated urban dwellers. It's city as adult Disneyland or "entertainment machine," chock-a-block with chic restaurants, shops and festivals.
Overlooked, or even disdained, is what most middle-class residents of the metropolis actually want: home ownership, rapid access to employment throughout the metropolitan area, good schools and "human scale" neighborhoods.
A vast majority of people — roughly 80 percent — prefer a single-family home, whether in the city or surrounding communities . . . .
In 2012, nine of the ten fastest-growing large metropolitan areas were in the Sunbelt, including big Texas cities like Austin, Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth, along with Denver, Raleigh and Phoenix. In 2013, Houston alone had more housing starts than the entire state of California . . . .
To a large extent, this growth is fueled by middle-class movement to regions that offer both better economic prospects and more affordable housing prices.
So . . . yes, there's another side to the story. One most Americans believe in, no matter how much others insist otherwise inside their we-know-better-than-you bubble. That Polk Parkway situation may be ridiculous but it is in no way applicable to Clay County and the First Coast Expressway.
I love what you're doing on this site, Ennis, but I'm not bowing down to your knowledge on this subject. As much as I want to tip the balance back a bit toward Center City (Riverside, Downtown, Springfield), I want balance that demonstrates regional respect more.
Finally. Another voice who gets it. It's about choices. There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core. Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better. I want my yard, my space, my silence. I want low crime in communities with other families. I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.
Quote from: DemocraticNole on March 26, 2015, 01:54:30 PM
Being talked about and getting built are two different things. The SR 60 interchange and Howard Frankland replacement will take forever to be built. If those are done by 2030, I'd be shocked. The tolled express lanes have no timeline to be built to my knowledge.
The SR 60 interchange will be under construction in just a few years...as will the bridge. Early design of the interchange is underway, and FDOT is planning to put them out in one giant design- build contract by 2018
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 26, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
Can you please provide a link to your source of the traffic models?
Its called the Northeast Florida Regional Planning Model (NERPM)...perhaps you have heard of it?
The version I am talking about is the one adopted with the 2035 regional Long Range Transportation Plan....which included socioeconomic data endorsed by all the local governments as being consistent with their comprehensive plans.
and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 26, 2015, 04:13:28 PM
I remember waiting for that silver line under the 105 and 110 in the middle of the night. It never showed up. Waiting for 2 hours or so and almost choked on all the smog under all those overpasses.
I took the Silver Line a few years ago. Yeah, the smog and the fumes of from the passing traffic is pretty unbearable.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Rosecrans_%26_I-110_Metro_Silver_Line_Station-_Picture_3.JPG/1280px-Rosecrans_%26_I-110_Metro_Silver_Line_Station-_Picture_3.JPG)
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 26, 2015, 09:41:44 PM
Finally. Another voice who gets it. It's about choices. There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core. Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better.
I live in the Southside too. My boys attend A middle and elementary schools. There's no difference between the Southside's schools and SJC's. I agree that it's all about choices. However, that doesn't mean fiscal irresponsibility of public tax dollars is ok. Our personal lifestyle choices should come with the personal responsibility of paying our fair share.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 26, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?
(http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/pork.gif)
Those roads have already paid great dividends to some land owners, construction and engineering firms. Give them 100 years and spend a few more billion connecting them to more cow pastures, orange groves, dairies, etc. and they'll pay themselves off in your great grandkid's lifetime.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 26, 2015, 09:41:44 PM
Finally. Another voice who gets it. It's about choices. There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core. Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better. I want my yard, my space, my silence. I want low crime in communities with other families. I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.
It may not convince you and others like you, but I've got virtually every one of those things in San Marco, which is in the urban core. I have a yard, space, A-rated schools, and there are plenty families. As far as crime we've had a lot fewer issues than when we lived in Ponte Vedra. It's not particularly silent though, so there's that.
St. Johns County has a good school *system* (demographics), but the schools aren't different than in the demographically similar parts of Duval or Clay Counties. And most of the best individual schools in the metro area, for those who put stock in school rankings and whatnot, are in Duval. In fact, most are in or near the urban core.
Most of us here would probably agree that these things should be about choice. The disagreement here seems to be whether this expressway will improve one or more of those choices. Clearly there's debate about that. I don't really see this as a burbs-vs-core issue.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 26, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 26, 2015, 09:35:36 PM
Can you please provide a link to your source of the traffic models?
Its called the Northeast Florida Regional Planning Model (NERPM)...perhaps you have heard of it?
The version I am talking about is the one adopted with the 2035 regional Long Range Transportation Plan....which included socioeconomic data endorsed by all the local governments as being consistent with their comprehensive plans.
and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?
Thanks, I'll check it out.
I didn't engage you in those two projects because I'm not familiar with them, so it be hard to discuss it. My regrets.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 26, 2015, 10:27:12 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 26, 2015, 09:54:58 PM
and btw, I noticed you didn't challenge my earlier assertion that the Suncoast Parkway and Polk Parkway were bad financial decisions made by Turnpike...why not?
(http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/pork.gif)
Those roads have already paid great dividends to some land owners, construction and engineering firms. Give them 100 years and spend a few more billion connecting them to more cow pastures, orange groves, dairies, etc. and they'll pay themselves off in your great grandkid's lifetime.
Honestly, since when do engineering firms and contractors have any pull to build more roads like FCE? What sort of leverage would they have? If anything its FDOT and landowners.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 26, 2015, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 26, 2015, 09:41:44 PM
Finally. Another voice who gets it. It's about choices. There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core. Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better. I want my yard, my space, my silence. I want low crime in communities with other families. I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.
It may not convince you and others like you, but I've got virtually every one of those things in San Marco, which is in the urban core. I have a yard, space, A-rated schools, and there are plenty families. As far as crime we've had a lot fewer issues than when we lived in Ponte Vedra. It's not particularly silent though, so there's that.
St. Johns County has a good school *system* (demographics), but the schools aren't different than in the demographically similar parts of Duval or Clay Counties. And most of the best individual schools in the metro area, for those who put stock in school rankings and whatnot, are in Duval. In fact, most are in or near the urban core.
Most of us here would probably agree that these things should be about choice. The disagreement here seems to be whether this expressway will improve one or more of those choices. Clearly there's debate about that. I don't really see this as a burbs-vs-core issue.
Unfortunatly, not all middle, upper middle, and upper class families can live in San Marco.
Why have so many Jacksonville families moved to SJC?
^No one is really moving to West Augustine. So, SJC isn't really different than other bedroom communities with no significant sized urban core area. Basically, cheaper housing and more new development, along with good schools in the specific area of SJC they are relocating too. Basically, the same reason people are moving to the Southside, North Jax, Argyle and Clay County. These areas also happen to be we're we've subsidized our transportation network the most over the last two decades.
Northern St. Johns County has great schools....IF you want your kids to grow up in a relatively homogeneous society.
I had that lifetsyle growing up in the wealthy suburbs of Maryland...and while I was far from sheltered, college life in Philadelphia was culture shock.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 27, 2015, 07:21:17 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 26, 2015, 11:37:06 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 26, 2015, 09:41:44 PM
Finally. Another voice who gets it. It's about choices. There's a reason why I live in Southside, and not the the Urban Core. Eventually, I'll move my family to SJC because the schools really are better. I want my yard, my space, my silence. I want low crime in communities with other families. I can't find that in the Urban Core, and good luck trying to convince me and others like me that its any different.
It may not convince you and others like you, but I've got virtually every one of those things in San Marco, which is in the urban core. I have a yard, space, A-rated schools, and there are plenty families. As far as crime we've had a lot fewer issues than when we lived in Ponte Vedra. It's not particularly silent though, so there's that.
St. Johns County has a good school *system* (demographics), but the schools aren't different than in the demographically similar parts of Duval or Clay Counties. And most of the best individual schools in the metro area, for those who put stock in school rankings and whatnot, are in Duval. In fact, most are in or near the urban core.
Most of us here would probably agree that these things should be about choice. The disagreement here seems to be whether this expressway will improve one or more of those choices. Clearly there's debate about that. I don't really see this as a burbs-vs-core issue.
Unfortunatly, not all middle, upper middle, and upper class families can live in San Marco.
Why have so many Jacksonville families moved to SJC?
You said those things can't be found in the urban core, my point is, they can. Other neighborhoods have most of them, besides the public schools, but then, the private and magnet options are better in Duval than they are in St. Johns.
(Northern) St. Johns County has plenty of attractions, and has developed a good brand. It does have a good school system. But as Ennis said, one big draw is the availability of new, reasonably priced homes. That wouldn't be possible if the governments didn't do things like build billion-dollar expressways opening up greenfield development.
It really should be about choice. Ideally there should be great suburbs for those that want them, and a thriving urban core for folks that want that. But the investment isn't on par. Right now we're building a $2 billion expressway in the suburbs, while chunks of the urban core are falling into the river and we have to fight tooth and nail for simple bike-ped improvements.
^I 100% agree. When my wife and I were looking for a house, one of the big benefits of living in the suburbs was the size of the house for the money (eventually family etc). We ended up moving to R/A- and in no way regret it, but it was more out of ethics than anything. It is obvious, especially after moving into town that there does not seem to be anyone (as for a politician) on your side. The power and money is finding its way further and further away from DT. The scary thing is that most of our peer cities have reversed this trend 10 years ago and have reaped great rewards.
One point being overlooked is that (counting two way traffic) over 20 million vehicles cross the Georgia/Florida line each year. Much of that traffic is coming/going to points south of Jacksonville and therefore the outer beltway will be for the benefit of traffic going to Miami, Orlando and Tampa as well as local traffic. It should be with this in mind that the FDOT approaches the Federal DOT and requests interstate designation for this highway.
With a major objective of the road to route visitors to Florida from Yulee to near St. Augustine and relieve traffic on I-95 as well as decrease the impact of out of state tourists on truck traffic utilizing JAXPORT it is only fair that the Federal Government designate the outer beltway as an Interstate perhaps I-895 or I-710 and pay for 75% of the project. In addition there will be interstate traffic created as more manufacturing and distribution facilities move to Cecil Commerce Center (CCC) on the Westside next to the outer beltway.
On the question of using tolls to pay for the road, is this really a fair method? The outer beltway not only benefits the traffic that uses it; it benefits the driver that goes from Orange Park to JAXPORT on I-295 or from Mandarin to UPS on Commonwealth by having less out-of state traffic volume. The same goes for I-95 from JIA to Downtown or commuters taking Blanding from Middleburg to Downtown not having to compete with people going to CCC.
There are thousands of people who receive an indirect benefit from the outer beltway without driving on it and yet will not pay a dime toward it. We need to demand the 75% coverage of cost from Washington and pay for the state and local 25% using gas taxes. Toll roads and express lanes are currently less than 1% of the centerline miles in our state and yet contribute 17% of the FDOT budget. This is not fair to those who use them and is letting the rest of us freeload on the toll road users for the transportation benefits that we receive. A gas tax or even better a weight/mile fee would let all of use fairly pay for our road use.
Quote from: brucef58 on March 28, 2015, 04:37:45 AM
One point being overlooked is that (counting two way traffic) over 20 million vehicles cross the Georgia/Florida line each year. Much of that traffic is coming/going to points south of Jacksonville and therefore the outer beltway will be for the benefit of traffic going to Miami, Orlando and Tampa as well as local traffic. It should be with this in mind that the FDOT approaches the Federal DOT and requests interstate designation for this highway.
With a major objective of the road to route visitors to Florida from Yulee to near St. Augustine and relieve traffic on I-95 as well as decrease the impact of out of state tourists on truck traffic utilizing JAXPORT it is only fair that the Federal Government designate the outer beltway as an Interstate perhaps I-895 or I-710 and pay for 75% of the project.
I definitely don't see that happening.... The feds aren't going to pay for 75% of the FCE. If they have that type of cash to spend in the region, we have a ton of existing facilities and bridges (that people do use), that need to be addressed. Also, tourist won't be using the FCE anymore than they use the Polk Parkway or 429 along the I-4 corridor. It takes one so far out of the way, they'd be better off staying on the existing interstates. If traffic gets too bad (we're a long way off from real congestion issues), the express lanes FDOT is building, will be available for use.
Well, I am glad to see that my first post on MJ created such a great conversation. As I said early on, the project has always been controversial. Apparently that hasn't changed. Thank you all for participating in the conversation.
I live in Clay County and travel to DT Jax regularly, and it is always via SR-23 (when I leave from home in Middleburg). I can be in DT Jax from Middleburg in about 30-40 minutes – the same amount of time it takes to get to I-295 at Blanding. No brainer for me.
Though I may prefer that trip to always be free, I'm smart enough to know it has to be paid for somehow. Like it or not, toll roads are at least a part of the future of funding new road construction. "We" don't like taxes, and politicians generally take the path of least resistance. Just like more people are part of our future, so are more roads, and the associated costs.
There were many excellent points made above, but one I will comment on is the idea that the road doesn't pay for itself. What road does? After it pays for itself through creation of additional taxes generated because the road is even there at all (sales, ad valorem, etc.), is the road then a profit center? I'm glad we have professionals in the thread who can maybe answer that question. I can't for sure.
Time to go enjoy the Clay lifestyle and take my grandson fishing. Thankfully I get to drive on a nice paved road and don't have to hook up a horse-and-buggy and hit the trail. And then in a couple of weeks we will hop on SR-23 and enjoy the wonderful and fantastic One Spark in DT Jax. #ilovejax.
Quote from: Edward on March 28, 2015, 09:51:39 AM
There were many excellent points made above, but one I will comment on is the idea that the road doesn't pay for itself. What road does? After it pays for itself through creation of additional taxes generated because the road is even there at all (sales, ad valorem, etc.), is the road then a profit center? I'm glad we have professionals in the thread who can maybe answer that question. I can't for sure.
I believe much of our infrastructure investment to encourage growth in specific locations (which is what the FCE is) should at least cover its cost and turn a profit indirectly. This includes some of the the revenue sources you mentioned. Unfortunately, it's highly doubtful that the FCE (assuming completely built) will do just that. To truly get those $2 billion in direct costs back (and I haven't even mentioned the billions in O&M and other supportive investments that will be needed in the future), that area will need to densify to a level not allowed in Clay or SJC.....which is why I consider it a dog.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 29, 2015, 08:36:31 AM
Quote from: Edward on March 28, 2015, 09:51:39 AM
There were many excellent points made above, but one I will comment on is the idea that the road doesn't pay for itself. What road does? After it pays for itself through creation of additional taxes generated because the road is even there at all (sales, ad valorem, etc.), is the road then a profit center? I'm glad we have professionals in the thread who can maybe answer that question. I can't for sure.
I believe much of our infrastructure investment to encourage growth in specific locations (which is what the FCE is) should at least cover its cost and turn a profit indirectly. This includes some of the the revenue sources you mentioned. Unfortunately, it's highly doubtful that the FCE (assuming completely built) will do just that. To truly get those $2 billion in direct costs back (and I haven't even mentioned the billions in O&M and other supportive investments that will be needed in the future), that area will need to densify to a level not allowed in Clay or SJC.....which is why I consider it a dog.
Time for SJC and Clay County to update their growth management policies and land development code, right? So, let's say that, in order to prevent the sprawl that this corridor could cause, that SJC and CC had specific PUD codes to help control/guide the development along the corridor. Would that help gain your support?
Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons. 4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first. No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built. So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.
I don't know if this dog of a road will ever have my full 100% support. Quite simply, there are several other ways to encourage growth and relieve congestion on existing streets that don't require such a large upfront and long term public investment. However, encouraging more density and mix of uses to reduce the amount of local auto trips being made would be beneficial to reducing the burden placed on the back of the taxpayers.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 29, 2015, 10:54:12 AM
Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons. 4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first. No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built. So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.
To be honest, I was being nice with the $2 billion figure. It's going to cost us a lot more to make it usable. Some of those capital costs will come in the form of extending, expanding existing roads in all three counties to purposely feed traffic into it. Start adding in RRR projects after a decade or so, future expansions to the associated road network and the hidden costs will jump significantly.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 29, 2015, 10:54:12 AM
Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons. 4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first. No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built. So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.
actually the $2 Billion cost was a low estimate for the roadway. At one point, FDOT was estimating closer to $3 Billion. The new Shands Bridge may cost $500 million alone. And the full costs of the under construction leg from I-10 to Blanding (including the interchange w/ I-10 previously built) is well over $500 million. So no, it is hardly the maximum investment possible.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 29, 2015, 03:42:59 PM
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 29, 2015, 10:54:12 AM
Also, lake, as you know, FCX will be built in specific segments, and not all at once, for financial reasons. 4 lanes (2 lanes, 2 directions) will be built first. No guarantees that 6-lane or 8-lane sections will ever be built. So throwing the $2 billion number around is just hypothetical, and, without a doubt, the maximum investment possible.
actually the $2 Billion cost was a low estimate for the roadway. At one point, FDOT was estimating closer to $3 Billion. The new Shands Bridge may cost $500 million alone. And the full costs of the under construction leg from I-10 to Blanding (including the interchange w/ I-10 previously built) is well over $500 million. So no, it is hardly the maximum investment possible.
I did some digging...
Actually, the latest numbers that FDOT is stating is $916 million for I-95 to SR 21 (Blanding Blvd) left to fund. That's $719 million for construction, $197 for environmental mitigation/design/CEI/etc. ROW is already funded per the 5YR Work Program, and was estimated at $270 million.
The Shands Bridge will not cost $500 million. No way, no how. Even with 8 lanes (2 separate bridge structures)and full shoulders (total of approx 70' wide single bridge) and at an approx 9000 LF, thats 630,000 SF of bridge. Typical costs for roadway bridges are about $150/SF. So by my numbers, thats $94.5 million per bridge, for a total of $189 million. Call it $200 million. Not even half of your number.
We can talk about all the future direct costs such as RRR jobs too, but O&M will be from FTE, and funded by tolls.
What we really can't measure are the direct/indirect benefits from the corridor, as they are subjective and hypothetical in nature. The numbers I've seen is an estimated 280,000 daily vehicle-hours saved in the Design Year 2035, with an estimated annual savings of $5.4 billion in time. And that's just time alone, and doesn't include the economic development spurred by construction of the project(s), as well as once the corridor is completed.
Did you know that Clay County is the largest county in Florida without an expressway located in it?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 29, 2015, 11:05:17 AM
I don't know if this dog of a road will ever have my full 100% support. Quite simply, there are several other ways to encourage growth and relieve congestion on existing streets that don't require such a large upfront and long term public investment. However, encouraging more density and mix of uses to reduce the amount of local auto trips being made would be beneficial to reducing the burden placed on the back of the taxpayers.
To be honest, I was being nice with the $2 billion figure. It's going to cost us a lot more to make it usable. Some of those capital costs will come in the form of extending, expanding existing roads in all three counties to purposely feed traffic into it. Start adding in RRR projects after a decade or so, future expansions to the associated road network and the hidden costs will jump significantly.
Expanding existing roads to purposely feed traffic into it? You write like that it's such a bad idea to build roads to provide drivers with better connectivity. Yes it's expensive, but so is ALL infrastructure investments.
As one poster was getting at, the urbanites don't like roadway construction projects because it doesn't benefit them directly. The opinion that it's too costly to build projects like this are completely biased towards a different way of life. Even when introducing a user-based fee, it's still not enough to watch a different class of citizens want something different than other.
I think the OP represents a largely unheard voice in the matter: The voice of a bedroom Clay County resident who makes the daily commute to Jacksonville, which this project seeks to serve. While the urbanites shake their fists at the project and demand shared-bike programs, a Skyway extension, two way streets downtown, and another failed Landing project.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 29, 2015, 06:47:55 PM
Expanding existing roads to purposely feed traffic into it? You write like that it's such a bad idea to build roads to provide drivers with better connectivity. Yes it's expensive, but so is ALL infrastructure investments.
Expanding for the sake of expanding and losing money when doing it is bad business. Let's not confuse smart infrastructure investment with any type of infrastructure investment.
QuoteAs one poster was getting at, the urbanites don't like roadway construction projects because it doesn't benefit them directly. The opinion that it's too costly to build projects like this are completely biased towards a different way of life. Even when introducing a user-based fee, it's still not enough to watch a different class of citizens want something different than other.
We're both Southsiders. What's a bad road investment have to do with urbanites, suburbanites or ruralites? No reason to start stereotyping people.
QuoteI think the OP represents a largely unheard voice in the matter: The voice of a bedroom Clay County resident who makes the daily commute to Jacksonville, which this project seeks to serve. While the urbanites shake their fists at the project and demand shared-bike programs, a Skyway extension, two way streets downtown, and another failed Landing project.
So what about Gator312? What Clay County voice does he represent? Btw, you should read our skyway/Landing expansion threads. You'll see that all these "urbanites" don't view these projects in the same light.
Gators312 will be the first one to drive the corridor. :)
He/she represents the proud residents of Clay County that believe CC is growing and will continue to grow without FCE. Which, of course, it will the rest of Florida. But really, I believe this project will be the spark that begins to put CC on the map.
Expanding for the sake of expanding? Growth for the sake of growth? How is growth/expansion bad business for Clay County? My point is that you're not considering it smart infrastructure because you don't live in CC. You don't drive to/from CC, I'm guessing. So of course, it's not smart infrastructure investment...for you.
The OPINION of a bad roadway investment is all about POV. If you live in the bedroom community of CC, you are a suburbanite and ruralite. And more than likely, you commute to Jacksonville for work, play, shopping, etc. And you more than likely, you want a faster commute to get to your destination.
LOL, I never said growth was bad in this five page thread. I said unsustainable growth....or growth that does not pay for itself...is bad. Not just in Clay County. But any community, urban, suburban or rural.
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 29, 2015, 06:35:56 PM
The Shands Bridge will not cost $500 million. No way, no how. Even with 8 lanes (2 separate bridge structures)and full shoulders (total of approx 70' wide single bridge) and at an approx 9000 LF, thats 630,000 SF of bridge. Typical costs for roadway bridges are about $150/SF. So by my numbers, thats $94.5 million per bridge, for a total of $189 million. Call it $200 million. Not even half of your number.
Do some more research...check how much is being spent to build a new bridge in Pensacola...or how about the new I-275 span over Tampa Bay...or maybe just the estimates for a new Mathews Bridge
The latest FDOT cost of $1.2 Billion is in addition to the hundreds of millions being spent on the current leg...and until the road is actually out for bid, those #s are purely an estimate...don't you worry, the whole 50 mile expressway will cost more than $2 Billion when all said and done.
and yes...I am very aware that Clay County is the most populous county in FL without an expressway....great factoid...but why does that automatically translate into actual need?
Well I'm the only Davis sibling that doesn't have rims on his vehicle. Since that's the case, you guys want to pitch in and help me shine in time for the family reunion? It will put me on the map. ;)
Quote from: southsider1015 on March 29, 2015, 06:47:55 PM
As one poster was getting at, the urbanites don't like roadway construction projects because it doesn't benefit them directly. The opinion that it's too costly to build projects like this are completely biased towards a different way of life. Even when introducing a user-based fee, it's still not enough to watch a different class of citizens want something different than other.
I think the OP represents a largely unheard voice in the matter: The voice of a bedroom Clay County resident who makes the daily commute to Jacksonville, which this project seeks to serve. While the urbanites shake their fists at the project and demand shared-bike programs, a Skyway extension, two way streets downtown, and another failed Landing project.
If this is referring to me, that's not what I said. I said I believe that relieving traffic for current residents (ie, the people the expressway ostensibly "seeks to serve") is at most a secondary concern. The primary purpose is to open up new greenfield development. Ok, cool, but that's an awful lot of money to spend for economic development way out there. It's a really steep subsidy for the types of development that, we both agree, is already happening and popular. We definitely don't see that level of investment in the core, which is probably one reason we see so much less development there.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 29, 2015, 08:52:10 PM
Well I'm the only Davis sibling that doesn't have rims on his vehicle. Since that's the case, you guys want to pitch in and help me shine in time for the family reunion? It will put me on the map. ;)
Ha. My house is the biggest one on my block without college football paraphernalia in the front. Clearly what we need is to get UNF a football team so I can get on the map.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 29, 2015, 08:52:10 PM
Well I'm the only Davis sibling that doesn't have rims on his vehicle. Since that's the case, you guys want to pitch in and help me shine in time for the family reunion? It will put me on the map. ;)
why not aim higher...maybe a kickstarter cmpaign to get you some spinners
I don't think spending billions of dollars on a single mode of transportation - which requires a vehicle in order to use it - is a very good idea. I know the legislature won't let FDOT build anything that does not require a car to use it but that needs to change.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 29, 2015, 09:04:04 PM
The primary purpose is to open up new greenfield development. Ok, cool, but that's an awful lot of money to spend for economic development way out there.
Here, really, is the unacknowledged problem some just don't want to admit. With or without the First Coast Expressway, a new Shands bridge is needed and owed to the residents of Clay and St. Johns counties. With or without the First Coast Expressway, new roadway construction was DESPERATELY needed in Clay County and would HAVE to have been delivered anyway. None of which even gets at the relatively short-end-of-the-stick Westsiders in Duval County have traditionally received.
But we're having this conversation, it seems to me, as if it (the conversation) is based on some controlling objective facts. It isn't. All of this back-and-forth is about subjective preferences and Tacachale just essentially admitted as much.
All of it.
Way out there, indeed, Tacachale.
And Ennis, I haven't gone back to read the earlier stuff before (I think) page 4 of this thread. I hope I wasn't uncharitable in my responses.
As I think I said earlier, I've driven the Polk Parkway; this is nothing remotely close to that situation. And believe it or not, people traveling south on I-75 do have reasons to head east on I-10 and connect with I-95. IMHO, there are more reasons for this expressway than seems to be readily acknowledged. Some of us are just trying to keep the "metro" in metrojacksonville.com -- you know?
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 07, 2015, 10:37:56 AM
And Ennis, I haven't gone back to read the earlier stuff before (I think) page 4 of this thread. I hope I wasn't uncharitable in my responses.
^Yes, you're uncharitable when it comes to my responses. I don't have any problem with spending money in Clay County or any other place when the investment makes sense ;). I'm claiming that this particular project doesn't make economic sense. My position has nothing to do with urban vs suburban, people's way of life, Clay vs Duval or any of those other red herrings that tend to make their way into debates on infrastructure.
QuoteAs I think I said earlier, I've driven the Polk Parkway; this is nothing remotely close to that situation.
Yes, the Polk Parkway is in an area with higher population density and growth potential....especially when it comes to moving freight. To be totally honest, Clay would have wet dreams if the FCE resulted in a fraction of the amount of logistics, manufacturing, tourism, educational and commercial development within close proximity of the Polk Parkway.
QuoteAnd believe it or not, people traveling south on I-75 do have reasons to head east on I-10 and connect with I-95.
This why I keep saying separate the validity of the specific project....which is not an indictment on Clay or its residents. Yes, there are several trips utilizing I-10 for this particular connection. However, the FCE takes one so far out of the way, it will be quicker and cheaper to keep using I-295. In the event that I-295 ever reaches a level of congestion that would discourage its usage, there will be express lanes to take. The installation of those express lanes aren't doing the future of the FCE any favors.
QuoteSome of us are just trying to keep the "metro" in metrojacksonville.com -- you know?
Again, keeping it "metro" and spending billions on something that doesn't make economic sense are two different things.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 07, 2015, 10:37:56 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on March 29, 2015, 09:04:04 PM
The primary purpose is to open up new greenfield development. Ok, cool, but that's an awful lot of money to spend for economic development way out there.
Here, really, is the unacknowledged problem some just don't want to admit. With or without the First Coast Expressway, a new Shands bridge is needed and owed to the residents of Clay and St. Johns counties. With or without the First Coast Expressway, new roadway construction was DESPERATELY needed in Clay County and would HAVE to have been delivered anyway. None of which even gets at the relatively short-end-of-the-stick Westsiders in Duval County have traditionally received.
But we're having this conversation, it seems to me, as if it (the conversation) is based on some controlling objective facts. It isn't. All of this back-and-forth is about subjective preferences and Tacachale just essentially admitted as much.
All of it.
Way out there, indeed, Tacachale.
No, not really. If this project were just about updating the infrastructure in already built-out areas, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we're talking about a $2 billion dollar expressway opening up undeveloped land for development. Easing traffic in Clay County and the Westside is at best a secondary concern, and there are most likely better (and much less expensive) ways to do that. Both I and Lake have said repeatedly that I don't view this as an urban/suburban debate, but rather about how best to spend money that's clearly intended for development. Heck, I'd even be all for the expressway as an economic development driver if I thought it would actually pay off.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
QuoteSome of us are just trying to keep the "metro" in metrojacksonville.com -- you know?
Again, keeping it "metro" and spending billions on something that doesn't make economic sense are two different things.
My thoughts exactly.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
This why I keep saying separate the validity of the specific project....which is not an indictment on Clay or its residents. Yes, there are several trips utilizing I-10 for this particular connection. However, the FCE takes one so far out of the way, it will be quicker and cheaper to keep using I-295. In the event that I-295 ever reaches a level of congestion that would discourage its usage, there will be express lanes to take. The installation of those express lanes aren't doing the future of the FCE any favors.
Truth...and FDOT knows it!
Another side effect of this "necessary" road: disrupting endangered native species!
Quote
Sandhill crane nest fowls Jacksonville road project
By Dan Scanlan Mon, Apr 13, 2015 @ 4:32 pm | updated Mon, Apr 13, 2015 @ 4:41 pm
A typical Florida sandhill crane nest is built in a wet or marshy area with two eggs laid in it. The chicks normally take about 10 months to mature enough before they leave the nest. These are not the ones affecting a road construction project in Jacksonville. Peter Canavan/Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Peter Canavan/Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
A typical Florida sandhill crane nest is built in a wet or marshy area with two eggs laid in it. The chicks normally take about 10 months to mature enough before they leave the nest. These are not the ones affecting a road construction project in Jacksonville.
A nest of endangered Florida sandhill cranes with chicks has put part of Jacksonville's First Coast Expressway on hold.
That means work on an 800-foot stretch of the northern part of the limited-access toll road that will connect Interstate 95 in north St. Johns County to Interstate 10 on Jacksonville's Westside has ceased until the baby birds fly away for good months from now.
The affected segment is north of Normandy Boulevard, part of the first half of the roadway now under construction by Dragados USA. The contractor first sighted the nesting pair in early March and alerted the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Transportation Department spokeswoman Gina Busscher said the two adults have two chicks, and this is the only sandhill crane nest affecting one of its road projects in Florida.
...
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-04-13/story/sandhill-crane-nest-fowls-jacksonville-road-project
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.
Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)
Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.
What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.
Alrighty then.
do you have a problem with what I said?
Lakelander noted that the I-295 express lanes will add capacity to the existing beltway, thereby diluting the attractiveness of the First Coast Expressway. Since one of the main arguments for building the road is as a bypass from I-10 west to I-95 south, don't you think this is an important observation?
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 15, 2015, 08:08:43 AM
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.
Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)
Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.
What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.
Alrighty then.
JTB
was a tool for economic development. That was the main reason it was built; anyone will tell you that. The argument, of course, is that it paid for itself in new taxes. Maybe, but either way, as a development strategy, this one is 35 years old, and our road builders just keep on keeping on.
As for UNF, I doubt there were very many people who didn't want it built besides some JU boosters, and that had nothing to do with it being a far-out development, and everything to do with a fear of competition. There was a question of where it should be built. Most locals wanted in town, which would have made the most sense. But the requirements the state put on it effectively required a far-out greenfields site on the Southside (if not even further away, like the St. Augustine area).
Brannon/Chaffee Sector Plan
Lake Asbury Sector Plan "1".....and "2"
Genesis Group Planner & Consult
Reinhold Corp.
North half of Section 19; 'stand alone' Brannon/Chaffe Leg. Kopolousous. Et Al.
If you can't do anything with this post,just skip the thread.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 15, 2015, 09:25:01 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 15, 2015, 08:08:43 AM
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.
Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)
Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.
What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.
Alrighty then.
JTB was a tool for economic development. That was the main reason it was built; anyone will tell you that. The argument, of course, is that it paid for itself in new taxes. Maybe, but either way, as a development strategy, this one is 35 years old, and our road builders just keep on keeping on.
As for UNF, I doubt there were very many people who didn't want it built besides some JU boosters, and that had nothing to do with it being a far-out development, and everything to do with a fear of competition. There was a question of where it should be built. Most locals wanted in town, which would have made the most sense. But the requirements the state put on it effectively required a far-out greenfields site on the Southside (if not even further away, like the St. Augustine area).
While JTB may have had some development ambitions, reading old JEA (Jacksonville Expressway Authority) documents, there was genuine concern about the growing traffic requirements between the Beaches and downtown Jacksonville in the late 60's and early 70's. Beach and Atlantic, while not fully developed were considered inappropriate for an upgrade from an arterial to an expressway format. More and more people were working in Jacksonville, but living in or near the Beaches.
JTB was originally conceived to run NW at or around Southside Boulevard and connect with the already completed Commodore Point Expressway roughly aligned with an old logging railroad ROW.
As we all know, this never happened. Existing homeowners in the Hogan/Parental Home area, some of them who had homes there since the 1930's objected to what would have wiped out their neighborhoods for good.
JTB instead "went no where" and was redirected using an overlap on the former Belfort Road ROW to reach a route to downtown via I-95. I suspect this is where the development ambitions took over. Now a toll road, it desperately needed surrounding development to make it viable.
The Beaches municipalities actually passed a joint resolution in 1973 and submitted it to JEA and COJ to start the feasibility of building a monorail like service between the two areas. This would facilitate both working transit needs and feed tourists into the Beaches area which was going through a slump. The money was actually planned for and the political process was kicked off.
Oil shock and terrible inflation made for tough choices. Instead we got JTB with toll in 1979 and the money for the monorail got transmuted after many years of squabbling into the Skyway which opened in 1989.
Back to the FCB, planners truly believe that Cecil Commerce is going to be a major jobs & logistics hub in the next 30-40 years. Jobs and logistics need 2 important things, roads for the workers to reach them, and roads to deliver and supply the goods coming out of the new space. In the words of Lakelander, Cecil is going to become yet another "Edge City", just as JTB and Southside facilitated that other Edge City. A space that has no reliance on an urban core to exist. And that concept bothers a lot of people, especially those who are comitted to the urban core.
I don't mind Cecil becoming a logistics hub or Edge City.......as long as it pays for itself. I believe that sustainable growth should pay for itself, regardless of whether its in the core or the burbs.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2015, 12:19:02 AM
I don't mind Cecil becoming a logistics hub or Edge City.......as long as it pays for itself. I believe that sustainable growth should pay for itself, regardless of whether its in the core or the burbs.
So when does a new Edge City deemed a "payoff". If public infra doesn't occur, no one goes there. If no one goes there, no public infra will be built.
What does one measure to conclude a loss or gain? Tax revenue only? Of what kind? Sales, employment, fuel, energy?
We all seem to measure the debits of the infrastructure involved. Who adds up the credits gained over the next 30-40 years?
Quote from: spuwho on April 25, 2015, 11:48:29 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 15, 2015, 09:25:01 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 15, 2015, 08:08:43 AM
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.
Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)
Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.
What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.
Alrighty then.
JTB was a tool for economic development. That was the main reason it was built; anyone will tell you that. The argument, of course, is that it paid for itself in new taxes. Maybe, but either way, as a development strategy, this one is 35 years old, and our road builders just keep on keeping on.
As for UNF, I doubt there were very many people who didn't want it built besides some JU boosters, and that had nothing to do with it being a far-out development, and everything to do with a fear of competition. There was a question of where it should be built. Most locals wanted in town, which would have made the most sense. But the requirements the state put on it effectively required a far-out greenfields site on the Southside (if not even further away, like the St. Augustine area).
While JTB may have had some development ambitions, reading old JEA (Jacksonville Expressway Authority) documents, there was genuine concern about the growing traffic requirements between the Beaches and downtown Jacksonville in the late 60's and early 70's. Beach and Atlantic, while not fully developed were considered inappropriate for an upgrade from an arterial to an expressway format. More and more people were working in Jacksonville, but living in or near the Beaches.
JTB was originally conceived to run NW at or around Southside Boulevard and connect with the already completed Commodore Point Expressway roughly aligned with an old logging railroad ROW.
As we all know, this never happened. Existing homeowners in the Hogan/Parental Home area, some of them who had homes there since the 1930's objected to what would have wiped out their neighborhoods for good.
JTB instead "went no where" and was redirected using an overlap on the former Belfort Road ROW to reach a route to downtown via I-95. I suspect this is where the development ambitions took over. Now a toll road, it desperately needed surrounding development to make it viable.
The Beaches municipalities actually passed a joint resolution in 1973 and submitted it to JEA and COJ to start the feasibility of building a monorail like service between the two areas. This would facilitate both working transit needs and feed tourists into the Beaches area which was going through a slump. The money was actually planned for and the political process was kicked off.
Oil shock and terrible inflation made for tough choices. Instead we got JTB with toll in 1979 and the money for the monorail got transmuted after many years of squabbling into the Skyway which opened in 1989.
Back to the FCB, planners truly believe that Cecil Commerce is going to be a major jobs & logistics hub in the next 30-40 years. Jobs and logistics need 2 important things, roads for the workers to reach them, and roads to deliver and supply the goods coming out of the new space. In the words of Lakelander, Cecil is going to become yet another "Edge City", just as JTB and Southside facilitated that other Edge City. A space that has no reliance on an urban core to exist. And that concept bothers a lot of people, especially those who are comitted to the urban core.
Yes, the planning of JTB was complex, and there certainly was a concern about growing traffic issues in the Beaches area. However, a lot of those traffic issues were created by then-new developments created by the same interests who pushed for JTB. It was cyclical. And of course the original plans for connecting JTB to town and creating mass transit were eventually scrapped, although more and more land has opened up for development. All considered, though, JTB and the intersecting corridors are a good case for it all being a development driver that made its money back.
I agree, and hope, that Cecil will become another "edge city" in the future. It's remote but very much of it is still infill, as it's using space that was already developed and then abandoned when the Navy pulled out. But I don't really buy that it's that much of a consideration for the First Coast Expressway. If it was, then FDOT would be pushing that angle a lot more than they are. And even if it were, it would still be cyclical as with JTB: there will be more traffic because more development has been opened up by the roads.
Quote from: spuwho on April 26, 2015, 12:27:15 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2015, 12:19:02 AM
I don't mind Cecil becoming a logistics hub or Edge City.......as long as it pays for itself. I believe that sustainable growth should pay for itself, regardless of whether its in the core or the burbs.
So when does a new Edge City deemed a "payoff". If public infra doesn't occur, no one goes there. If no one goes there, no public infra will be built.
What does one measure to conclude a loss or gain? Tax revenue only? Of what kind? Sales, employment, fuel, energy?
We all seem to measure the debits of the infrastructure involved. Who adds up the credits gained over the next 30-40 years?
If your new growth is coming at an overall loss
(initial and continued public investment always exceeds the amount of income/economic activity it generates) it's bad growth. Seriously, what's the point in making investments that drain the public coffers instead of ultimately enhancing the pot? If you have a decent planning department, the municipality should be keeping track of the ROI on its investments. When Bill Killingsworth was around, they used to keep tract and we were losing money. I'm not sure we still do, but nothing has changed with our development pattern to suggest anything different.
The non-profit Strong Towns does a pretty good job of identifying the common fiscal problems with our post WWII development patterns:
Strong Towns' Chuck Marohn: Why Suburban Growth Is a Ponzi Schemehttps://vimeo.com/69602304
Quote from: Tacachale on April 26, 2015, 12:44:56 AM
I agree, and hope, that Cecil will become another "edge city" in the future. It's remote but very much of it is still infill, as it's using space that was already developed and then abandoned when the Navy pulled out. But I don't really buy that it's that much of a consideration for the First Coast Expressway. If it was, then FDOT would be pushing that angle a lot more than they are. And even if it were, it would still be cyclical as with JTB: there will be more traffic because more development has been opened up by the roads.
Cecil was/is already well connected. The FCE isn't going to greatly enhance or detract from its potential as a distribution center. On second thought, it's probably not a good idea for it to develop to a certain level (say... Edge City status). Those 12,000' long runways need to be protected from sprawl, for it to reach it's ultimate potential as an aerospace center.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2015, 07:37:15 AM
The FCE isn't going to greatly enhance or detract from its potential as a distribution center. On second thought, it's probably not a good idea for it to develop to a certain level (say... Edge City status). Those 12,000' long runways need to be protected from sprawl, for it to reach it's ultimate potential as an aerospace center.
Man, I just love this comment. What was I saying about being completely dismissive? Of the Westside? Its "ultimate potential as an aerospace center," Ennis? For real?
That's your primary thought concerning Cecil Commerce?
Somehow, I think the folks at AllianceFlorida, Hillwood, and the Ross Perot companies are marketing the location and framing it in the context of Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, Nashville, New Orleans, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. And the roads leading from those locations to the Westside of Jacksonville. Jacksonville is central in that circle that loops to those cities. And is finishing a network of roads that allows your transportation business to completely avoid the gridlock of Jax roadways
inside the 295 Beltway.
Aerospace ain't the major focus, my man. It's a hoped-for major plus that Jacksonville would love but isn't banking on. Just a wild guess (after viewing some of their materials, of course).
And that tax base they're going to develop
way out there towards Baldwin? It's going to seriously supplement the urban core. Cecil Commerce is perhaps
the biggest economic development project in Duval County.
JAXPORT Vison: Northeast Florida will be a principal hub of the nation's global logistics, trade and transportation network
JAXPORT Mission: Creating jobs and opportunity by offering the most competitive environment for the movement of cargo and people
If you don't understand the importance of the First Coast Expressway in this, you're not objectively paying attention IMHO. The consistent bitching about the First Coast Expressway is shortsighted in the extreme, and that isn't even a close call.
If we really wanted an economic coup, we should have gave Cecil back to the Navy a decade ago, IMO. Cecil is already located along I-10 and near I-295.....so the location has been a decent one for well over 40 years now. The FCE isn't changing that. A better and more cost efficient upgrade would be the rebuilding of the railroad spur that used to serve Cecil.
With that said, the best thing Cecil offers is the airport infrastructure the Navy left behind. It's something this community should really take advantage of. The manufacturing/distribution stuff is a wash though. We're subsidizing Cecil at the expense of other privately owned industrial parks that can easily accommodate the same type of uses....Westlake, which is literally on the other side of I-10 comes to mind. Understandably, there was some big opposition from private sector owners to the deal the city cooked a few years back.
Anyway, I understand you believe the FCE is the greatest thing to happen in Jax since consolidation. I'm of the opinion we've got a Polk Parkway II on our hands. I guess time will tell. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
If we really wanted an economic coup, we should have gave Cecil back to the Navy a decade ago, IMO. Cecil is already located along I-10 and near I-295.....so the location has been a decent one for well over 40 years now. The FCE isn't changing that. A better and more cost efficient upgrade would be the rebuilding of the railroad spur that used to serve Cecil.
With that said, the best thing Cecil offers is the airport infrastructure the Navy left behind. It's something this community should really take advantage of. The manufacturing/distribution stuff is a wash though. We're subsidizing Cecil at the expense of other privately owned industrial parks that can easily accommodate the same type of uses....Westlake, which is literally on the other side of I-10 comes to mind. Understandably, there was some big opposition from private sector owners to the deal the city cooked a few years back.
Anyway, I understand you believe the FCE is the greatest thing to happen in Jax since consolidation. I'm of the opinion we've got a Polk Parkway II on our hands. I guess time will tell. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
100% spot on.
Cecil is better positioned than most private industrial parks around town (many of which have significant vacancies) because of cheap development costs (a-Hillwood got a fairly good deal from the City, as Lake points out... many of the private industrial land owners still fume about b-JIA has a ton of mobility credits stored up for future infill c-easy access to state and local incentives) and (more importantly) the third longest runway in the state of Florida (along with three others measuring at least 8,000 feet).
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 09:16:31 AM
Anyway, I understand you believe the FCE is the greatest thing to happen in Jax since consolidation. I'm of the opinion we've got a Polk Parkway II on our hands. I guess time will tell. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
Agree that time will tell. But unfortunately, as another poster has mentioned, the metrics in which we debate on whether a specific investment in public infrastructure will be worth it are SO subjective. It's really hard to see the benefits outweigh the costs because of the thousands of variables, people, and outside influences involved.
Until we have more information to discuss, I've been really quiet on this discussion. It's just debating the same topic over and over.
The project is moving forward. ROW and environmental mitigation is funded. Construction will soon be funded, too. It's going to be a reality soon enough.
I'd be interested to see how soon the segment between Blanding and I-95 is completed and open to traffic. I believe it's still a good decade away, at a minimum.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be interested to see how soon the segment between Blanding and I-95 is completed and open to traffic. I believe it's still a good decade away, at a minimum.
Maybe. It'll be built in 4-lane sections (not 8), and will phased in segments.
Blanding to Henley will probably be next. Then, either Henley to US 17, or Shands to US 17. St. Johns County will probably be last.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 12:43:29 PM
I'd be interested to see how soon the segment between Blanding and I-95 is completed and open to traffic. I believe it's still a good decade away, at a minimum.
Sorta like best-case-scenario full completion of The Shipyards project, huh ? ? ?
And Westside Industrial is a good five miles up the road from Cecil Commerce, not exactly what I would call practically across the street of the I-10 / Cecil Commerce area.
If you're familiar with industrial site selection then you would agree that they are literally across the street. Nevertheless, much of the stuff shown in the Shipyards plan is a pipe dream. A 10 year build out would be impressive for a place like Miami. Given our market, I'd expect things to drag out a lot longer than 10.
Quote from: southsider1015 on May 02, 2015, 06:57:35 PM
Maybe. It'll be built in 4-lane sections (not 8), and will phased in segments.
Blanding to Henley will probably be next. Then, either Henley to US 17, or Shands to US 17. St. Johns County will probably be last.
the travel demand forecasts only support the portion in St. Johns County. The portions between SR 21 and US 17 are dogs
Hmmm . . . logistics, relief of traffic congestion, etc. Will wonders never cease. Get beyond the navel gazing & look down the road 15 years, urban core enthusiasts:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/06/26/this-transportation-project-is-a-big-win-for.html
^ this is the case all over the state. FDOT is all about highway projects right now that enhance trade & logistics. They aren't nearly as interested in providing true mobility options for Florida's residents
^Shockingly..... ;), I'm fine with the FCE being extended between I-10 and US 90. Given interchange spacing between 301 and Chaffee Road, the amount of truck traffic and the number of large industries those trucks are accessing off US 90/Beaver, it makes all the sense in the world.
The final phase of the FCE into St. Johns County connecting to I-95 has been funded, including the new Shands Bridge. $763 million, $317 million going to the bridge itself. It'll be done in 12 years.
https://www.news4jax.com/traffic/with-1st-phase-of-first-coast-expressway-almost-done-get-ready-for-tolls_
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2015, 09:12:16 PM
If you're familiar with industrial site selection then you would agree that they are literally across the street. ...............
Perhaps interesting to note that during Clay County Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan proceedings DCA scaled back Clay's aspirations for Industrial,citing Cecil Commerce et al .
This of course infuriated some Clay interests,no wonder State Of Florida DCA oversight process was scaled back.
The day the DOT told the truth. Coming soon to Florida.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015/7/6/iowa-dot-chief-the-system-is-going-to-shrink
Quote from: Florida Power And Light on February 05, 2019, 08:55:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2015, 09:12:16 PM
If you're familiar with industrial site selection then you would agree that they are literally across the street. ...............
Perhaps interesting to note that during Clay County Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan proceedings DCA scaled back Clay's aspirations for Industrial,citing Cecil Commerce et al .
This of course infuriated some Clay interests,no wonder State Of Florida DCA oversight process was scaled back.
Quote from: Kerry on February 06, 2019, 03:32:06 PM
The day the DOT told the truth. Coming soon to Florida.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015/7/6/iowa-dot-chief-the-system-is-going-to-shrink
Iowa's population growth is about the national average. Most of their growth is in three urban areas 69 of 99 counties are losing population. FL is not in that position.
Yeah, shrinking of the transportation system won't be coming soon in Florida. It may not occur in our lifetimes.
QuoteThe Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT) is assigned with assembling task forces to study three specific corridors:
The Suncoast Connector, extending from Citrus County to Jefferson County
The Northern Turnpike Connector, extending from the northern terminus of Florida's Turnpike northwest to the Suncoast Parkway
The Southwest-Central Florida Connector, extending from Collier County to Polk County
(https://www.mympo.org/images/easyblog_articles/244/MCORES.png)
https://floridamcores.com/
if there is a silver lining to COVID-19, it is the favorable global impact on our environment that is already apparent. Atmospheric CO2 emissions in China and Italy nearly disappeared in only a few days. Water quality in polluted waterways is showing marked improvements.
Maybe the Florida budget is so drained and people are driving less after this such that these new "corridors" are no longer feasible or are a priorty. We shall see.
It would be interesting if COVID-19, bad as it is, saves us from the catastrophic effects of unchecked global climate change.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on March 21, 2020, 08:27:57 PM
if there is a silver lining to COVID-19, it is the favorable global impact on our environment that is already apparent. Atmospheric CO2 emissions in China and Italy nearly disappeared in only a few days. Water quality in polluted waterways is showing marked improvements.
Maybe the Florida budget is so drained and people are driving less after this such that these new "corridors" are no longer feasible or are a priorty. We shall see.
It would be interesting if COVID-19, bad as it is, saves us from the catastrophic effects of unchecked global climate change.
Counterpoint: Less density means more social distancing!
THis COVID19 thing is a like a sparkly new president. Masses of people are projecting their wildest wishes onto it, insisting that they're now possible.
FCE was officially conceived in 1973, Florida Local Government Planning Act.
The " Growth" concept was lodged among certain Clay " Leaders" well before that.
It took two Lake Asbury State DCA county citizen " vision" excercise to Push. On the heels of a previous Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan.... headed up by Clay " Planning Director" Susan Fraser. And certain Planners and Consultants.
Lake Asbury Sector Plan(s) conducted under a Clay Planner formerly from St Johns ..... and Prosser H. Planner and Consultant Firm.
The Firm involved during Susan's tenure even more enlightening.
Here we are!
How do you like Clay now????
FCE to be renamed White Flight Causeway.....
Skip the ground level Ceremony.
Watch for the planes overhead: Banners
Referencing Official Record Book and Page
Connecting an Investor/ Beltway Driver closely related to a Clay County person who would become FDOT Director.
No, not Reinhold.
During the Delaney Administration; the US Army Corps of Engineers Head involved with Permitting. Called Me on the morning of the " Stand Alone" Brannon Chaffee Leg Ceremony at That Time. Early am.
He callled to Apologize.
This person ended up appointed to Delaney Administration.For a short time period.
More will unfold.
Not that any of this matters to those concerned about Traffic Congestion or a truly Conservative County.
Clay County never was happy with itself. Growth and change was championed, and cast as "Inevitable ". A Militant Alternative to Bad OL' Duval.
" Jacksonville" Growth, Attraction was attributed to surrounding Counties.
And the Orange Park Mall has become a " No Go Zone".
Brannon Chaffee / Lake Asbury ( 2 ND Round ) " Sector Plan" proceedings Classic.
Grand opening Soon!
Yeah, Phase 2 in Clay County scheduled for completion sometime next year.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/11/25/traffic-relief-in-sight-for-clay-county-commuters-as-first-coast-expressway-project-progresses/
I'm betting it has no impact on Blanding or US 17 traffic.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 26, 2024, 04:44:49 PM
I'm betting it has no impact on Blanding or US 17 traffic.
I agree, for two reasons
1. It doesn't really go where the majority of Blanding and US 17 traffic are going. Sure, if you live in Green Cove and are going to Lake City (I-75) or points west on I-10, you might use the FCE, but there aren't that many doing that.
2. All the growth in central and southern Clay County that its capacity will allow is also not (primarily) going west.